Vanjagenije (talk | contribs) |
F382d56d7a18630cf764a5b576ea1b4810467238 (talk | contribs) corrections |
||
Line 7: | Line 7: | ||
---- |
---- |
||
==Temple vs Cathedral== |
|||
It is a common and modern affectation to refer to the Orthodox Church Building (Ecclesia) as a Temple (Templon) by those who think it sounds prettier. But in fact, as Orthodox Christianity is the continuation of the true church from its Jewish Roots there needs to be a distinction made between the nature of the Jewish Temple that housed the Holy of Holies (God's window to Earth), and the Church building which is our window into heaven. In English, there are certain negative connotations to the word Temple as it is commonly also used to describe pagan edifices. --[[User:Phiddipus|Phiddipus]] 01:22, 24 January 2006 (UTC) |
|||
* I have to object the name of the church in Belgrade in Serbian is called "Hram Svetog Save", which translates to the "Temple of St. Sava". |
* I have to object the name of the church in Belgrade in Serbian is called "Hram Svetog Save", which translates to the "Temple of St. Sava". |
Revision as of 18:47, 7 April 2010
This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Temple vs Cathedral
It is a common and modern affectation to refer to the Orthodox Church Building (Ecclesia) as a Temple (Templon) by those who think it sounds prettier. But in fact, as Orthodox Christianity is the continuation of the true church from its Jewish Roots there needs to be a distinction made between the nature of the Jewish Temple that housed the Holy of Holies (God's window to Earth), and the Church building which is our window into heaven. In English, there are certain negative connotations to the word Temple as it is commonly also used to describe pagan edifices. --Phiddipus 01:22, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
- I have to object the name of the church in Belgrade in Serbian is called "Hram Svetog Save", which translates to the "Temple of St. Sava".
--Happyman22 03:32, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
- Indeed, if not Temple, how would it be called? Church of Saint Sava? Cathedral of Saint Sava? Nikola 09:41, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
- I concur with Phiddipus, temple does have a certain non-Christian connotation to it. "Saborni hram" might translate into 'Cathedral' (in English) or simply shrine (for temple). Anonymous
As I'm not a native English speaker so I can't definitely advise on this, but will offer some insights. In Serbian the word "hram" is, too, used for pagan temples but for Orthodox temples as well. Consider also [1] vs [2] vs [3]. Compare with Temple in Jerusalem - Jews are not pagans. Nikola 10:25, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
An Orthodox Christian place of worship simply CANNOT be styled a temple. Whoever the translator might have been, he or she has not checked even one English dictionary. 1)English does not have the Church Slavonic tradition of calling a pagan, Jewish and Christian places of worship with the same name. This goes back to the first translations of Ss Cyril and Methodius and their disciples. 2)Moreover, this tradition is not present among the Non-Orthodox Slavs, but holds true ONLY for languages of the 'Orthodox' Slavic nations - Bulgarians, Russians (+Byelorussians, Ukrainians) and Serbs (+ Montenegrins, Macedonians). Check any other Slavic language. 3)'Hram' in Serbian is a synonym of 'crkva', but 'temple' is not synonymous to 'church' in English . 4)So far no Orthodox Christian church has ever been called temple in English. If it was not for a few negligible Protestant sects, we might say it held good for the whole of Christendom. Somehow, I'm quite sure you wouldn't like to equate the greatest Serbian church with a meeting place of an American or French Protestant sect (very often alternately called a 'tent', which sometimes it really is!). 5)The translator hasn't bothered to consider a Serbian (let alone Russian or Church Slavonic) dictionary either. 'Hram' is an exact synonym of 'crkva' (cerkov') without any shade of meaning designating 'a large or an important church' as you seem to hint. Check any Serbian explanatory dictionary. 6)'Temple' is a word of Latin and NOT Greek origin - it entered Greek quite late. Consequently, someone's quoting a supposed Greek prototype is rather ridiculous. In modern Greek it simply indicates an iconostasis. 7)The Jews are not pagans indeed, but as usual they are an exception. Therefore, every decent dictionary (even some pocket editions) warns that 'temple' may refer to 'one of three successive buildings for Hebrew worship in ancient Jerusalem built respectively by Solomon, Zerubbabel, and Herod the Great'. 8)The Temple in London contains an Anglican church, as it's an ex-headquarters of the Knights Templars, and its senior clergyman is still called the 'Master of the Temple'. However, as there were no Templars on Vracar... 9)'Cathedral' signifies not only a bishop's or the principal church of a diocese, but also 'any of various large or important nonepiscopal churches'. Russian 'sobor' is commonly translated as 'cathedral'. As a professor of English, Russian and Church Slavonic languages (I hope I won't be forced to send you my diplomas and curricula), as a Master of Arts and a doctorand in Medieval Studies, I entreat (= beg) you to change the title of the Wikipedia article and remove all the temples from there. Doing it and not persisting in stubbornness would do a great favour to all the Serbian people and disassociate them from the pagans, ancient Jews and American and French Protestants. Sincerely, A.Novalija, Ljubljana89.212.91.80 05:47, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
PS Calling into evidence the quantity of Google results is a funny argument. Irresponsible translators created the collocation, and the foreign tourists and tourist guides just go with the flow. 'Wild Serbs and their temples'. :) Alen89.212.91.80 05:54, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I would agree - I am currently translating the web site of the Belgrade Tourist Organisation (or rather, the Tourist Organisation of Belgrade) and I am planning to opt for "Cathedral" not Temple. Temple just does not have sufficiently Christian connotations in English. I also agree that while Google searches CAN be very helpful in determining the consensus of usage (after all, most language usage is consensual at the end of the day), but in a case such as this, errors or inadequate solutions are often replicated across many websites, and this needs to be taken into account.
Markowe (talk) 12:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC).
Dear Mr Novalija, I appreciate your diplomas etc. but frankly your suggestion, quite naively accepted by the author of this page, sounds very odd. The word cathedral has a negative connotation in Serbian language as it relates mainly to the Roman Catholic Church and this Church is seen as an abominable sect by the Serbian Orthodox Church. I'm aware that you might argue that this is an English site, but for the sake of argument, let's say if one of the synonyms in English language for ' mosque ' were 'krme' (piglet), I don't think that any level of linguistic acrobatics would have persuaded muslims to accept it. On the other hand, I feel that Serbs would prefer to be called ‘pagans’ than Catholics. If I were the author of this article, I would seek 'second' and 'third' opinion, maybe from native English speakers.Popytrewq (talk) 21:20, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Still calling it the "temple" over a year later? Sigh... So "temple" has more Christian overtones than "cathedral" and Serbs would rather be known as heathens than Christians (if they're not Orthodox christians)? If you want the opinion of a native speaker of English then let's call it the Cathedral and finish this silly discussion... Markowe (talk) 14:26, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
- I am curious to know why Markowe finds the word "temple" entirely pagan. What Solomon built was a temple. The place where Jesus read the scriptures was a temple. The church is not a cathedral unless it contains the throne of a bishop. Does it contain the throne of a bishop? The fact that it is large and grand doesn't make it a cathedral. St Michael's Cathedral, Wollongong, is only about 30 metres long and about 6 metres wide, but it does have a bishop. If the term cathedral is offensive to the Serbian Orthodox Christians, then I find it amazing that someone should be trying to force a word with Catholic and Anglican connotations on them. One might as well tell the Methodists that Wesley Central Methodist Hall ought to be called a "cathedral" because the word "hall" is associated with dance halls, music halls, and other places that encourage "sins of the flesh! Amandajm (talk) 15:03, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
- In the Eastern Orthodox Church the use of the word temple comes from the need to distinguish building of the church vs. church as Body of Christ. Tadija (talk) 11:14, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
The architecture
The design of the building is plainly based directly on that of the renowned 6th century church of Hagia Sophia. The article needs to state this fact. A great work of architecture needs to be put into context. The long and continuing tradition of the Orthodox Church also needs to be given this context. Amandajm (talk) 23:07, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- No, I don't. I don't live in Serbia. I don't speak the language. It is most unlikely that there will be detailed art histories in other languages at this time. You need to do some research.
- Otherwise, cite Hagia Sophia as a primary reference. Your eyes, and anybody elses will prove that it is true. Amandajm (talk) 08:56, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Well, this is not quite ok. It was not based on the Hagia Sofia, it is based on the Greek cross, main architectural idea of the Byzantine architecture, which specific part evolved in Serbia. It look like the Hagia Irene, Hagia Sophia... Or any of the numerous churches of the Byzantine aesthetics. Tadija (talk) 23:12, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
- Why is none of this tradition, including reference to the most famous predecessors in Istanbul acknowledged in the article? The church has been written about as if it was a "one-off" object with no precursor (like the Sydney Opera House).
- The "plan" specifically, is based on a Greek cross. However, there is a great deal more to the building than just its plan. St Mark's in Venice has a Greek Cross plan, but a quite different form.
- The architecture is most obviously paying homage to Hagia Sophia. It doesn't really matter how many churches have been built in between. The huge size of this building, as well as its form, is a reference to Hagia Sophia. No serious architect building a traditional form in the Byzantine manner could fail to look at the way that structure, mass and space were dealt with in that building.
- An article like this fails if it doesn't provide that type of background. Hagia Sophia is beyond the slightest doubt the most important single forerunner in the design of this church.
Amandajm (talk) 23:48, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Writing
It finishes Belgrade's line Kalemegdan - Trg Republike - Terazije - Beograđanka - Slavija - Temple of Saint Sava.
This sentence is totally meaningless and unencyclopedic, because it does not communicate to anyone outside Belgrade.
- Don't begin a section with "it". What is "it"?
- Don't presume that your reader knows what you know. I, as one reader, know nothing about Belgrade.
- What sort of "line" is this? Is it a historic tradition, or is this a railway line?
- What is Kalemegdan? What is Trg Republike? What is Terazije? etc etc etc . I don't have the foggiest tiniest idea what this is about! They are the names of something, but what?
I don't know why this article has been rated a B on the quality scale. Before it can be a B, an ordinary English-speaking person has to be able to understand what it is about. It needs to have some references. It needs someone with a bit of knowledge of the design, not just the specifications, to write a paragraph that acknowledges where the architectural style, and the inspiration has come from. ie Hagia Sophia, the most famous church of the ancient world, as I mentioned above.
Amandajm (talk) 23:36, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- I have attempted to make sense of this and this is what I have come up with.
- The Temple of Saint Sava is the most recent in a long line of important architectural monuments in Belgrade, beginning with the ancient fortress of Kalemegdan, the Square of the Republic, the Terazije (explain), the Beograđanka (explain), the Slavija (explain)
- I can't remember what all these things are, having looked them up only once. I know that one is an office block and one is a stadium... But I can't remember which. Please fix it for English-speakers like me.
- I have attempted to make sense of this and this is what I have come up with.
Amandajm (talk) 23:50, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- I wrote that, using the church's official website as the reference, although I can't find it there anymore. It's simply a line of important landmarks (I wouldn't call them architectural monuments), perhaps comparable to the Axe historique. As for what each of these landmarks are, you can see their articles - they are linked! The term isn't used very often so perhaps that could even be removed. Nikola (talk) 04:14, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
B to C grade
I made the above comments more than six weeks ago. They have not been addressed. For that reason, I have reduced the article from B to C grade. No-one who lives outside Belgrade would have the faintest foggiest idea of what this sentence means:
It finishes Belgrade's line Kalemegdan - Trg Republike - Terazije - Beograđanka - Slavija - Temple of Saint Sava.
Please read the suggestions I have made above, and fix this, before returning this article to B Grade status.
Amandajm (talk) 02:17, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Well, fix it then!
- Why on earth don't you just take the trouble of fixing it instead of writing me a blinking explanation! I've told you HOW to fix it. No-one ought to have to follow the links in order to know what you are talking about! The use of the word "landmarks" or better still "historic landmarks" would fix it. And delete the word "line" and use "succession".
- Also make sure that every new section begins with the churches name, not "It".
Amandajm (talk) 10:38, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Is there anybody awake?
There must be someone who can read and write and who knows the history of their own town better than I do! Please read the four previous posts and fix this mess so that other readers can comprehend it! Amandajm (talk) 06:40, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Conflict in information
Quoted from an online article: "At the second open competition in 1926 the architectural design of the architect Bogdan Nestorović was selected, with later incorporation of several elements of the project of the architect Aleksandar Deroko. The consecration of the foundations was made by Patriarch Varnava on September 15, 1935, and when the works have moved ahead, Patriarch Gavrilo consecrated and placed the charter in the altar, next to the cornerstone on May 27, 1939. ...... so on April 30, 1985, the temple, desecrated by war and human negligence, was consecrated again by Patriarch German in the presence of all Serbian hierarchs, and the charter on continuing construction works in new historical circumstances was laid again. Branko Pešić, an architect and university professor was appointed protomaster of the construction. ....."
This information here conflicts with the unreferenced info that is in the article. Tha article states that it was the design of Deroko on which the building was based. This article here makes it clear that it was on the design of Nestorovic. Here is the source. Belgrade Church architecture
Amandajm (talk) 09:14, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Largest?
Is this really a largest orthodox church in the world? I hear that this is the most largest orthodox church in Balkan. Moskva have a taller one. http://www.sacred-destinations.com/russia/moscow-cathedral-of-christ-the-savior.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.121.26.197 (talk) 20:34, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
- The Cathedral of Christ the Savior, Moscow is taller, but is not larger. Cathedral of Saint Sava is the largest Orthodox church building in the World by terms of area. Vanjagenije (talk) 17:30, 7 April 2010 (UTC)