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:: With your insults (both in English and in Romanian), and with your attitude (adding an {{or}} tag is "lack of respect"?), your project just lost one of its members. Keep up the good work! [[User:Daizus|Daizus]] ([[User talk:Daizus|talk]]) 02:47, 1 April 2011 (UTC) |
:: With your insults (both in English and in Romanian), and with your attitude (adding an {{or}} tag is "lack of respect"?), your project just lost one of its members. Keep up the good work! [[User:Daizus|Daizus]] ([[User talk:Daizus|talk]]) 02:47, 1 April 2011 (UTC) |
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::: This is not MY project. If you care about Dacia and have a genuine interest in making the information available in English to the world (most of if it is not), then you do it, project or not. Wikipedia, and yes this project too, needs team players, good communicators, people who can say thank you, make a compliment, have dialog, not just put "or" tag all over the place without even attempting a dialog. I am not offended by the tag, but by the negativity, lack of respect, lack of diplomacy, by people who spend time deleting instead of adding. That offends me. You could have written a note on my page "Codrin, great work on Capidava, thanks for the effort on creating the article and obtaining all the pictures. But I think some parts need some work, since they might be interpreted as OR". Did you do that? No! You shoot without a warning, like this is a war zone, not a friendly, academic, collaborative environment. I don't hold grudges but can't accept ill treatment either. You do what you wish. Your great contributions will be missed, your negativity not at all.--[[User:Codrinb|Codrin.B]] ([[User talk:Codrinb|talk]]) 02:54, 1 April 2011 (UTC) |
::: This is not MY project. If you care about Dacia and have a genuine interest in making the information available in English to the world (most of if it is not), then you do it, project or not. Wikipedia, and yes this project too, needs team players, good communicators, people who can say thank you, make a compliment, have dialog, not just put "or" tag all over the place without even attempting a dialog. I am not offended by the tag, but by the negativity, lack of respect, lack of diplomacy, by people who spend time deleting instead of adding. That offends me. You could have written a note on my page "Codrin, great work on Capidava, thanks for the effort on creating the article and obtaining all the pictures. But I think some parts need some work, since they might be interpreted as OR". Did you do that? No! You shoot without a warning, like this is a war zone, not a friendly, academic, collaborative environment. I don't hold grudges but can't accept ill treatment either. You do what you wish. Your great contributions will be missed, your negativity not at all.--[[User:Codrinb|Codrin.B]] ([[User talk:Codrinb|talk]]) 02:54, 1 April 2011 (UTC) |
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:::: There was discussion before adding that tag and I haven't deleted anything. You can be thankful I'm not reporting you for blatant violations of [[WP:NPA]], but I will if you continue in the same manner. |
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:::: I care about this only as long as there is a slight chance of improvement. I'm already tired of checking every ref, just because people are not genuinely interested in making information available, but in using Wikipedia to promote their own theories, their own views. And getting insulted for that is really too much. Au revoir! [[User:Daizus|Daizus]] ([[User talk:Daizus|talk]]) 03:05, 1 April 2011 (UTC) |
Revision as of 03:05, 1 April 2011
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European history Unassessed | ||||||||||
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Geto-Dacian center ?
To my best knowledge, nobody could archaeologically prove that a Getic settlement pre-dated the Roman fort, which is dated anyway only to the time of the Dacian wars, much later that the establishment of the Roman rule over the region. I don't consider the name enough to call this Roman fort Geto-Dacian (sic). Is there any source supporting such claim?Anonimu (talk) 22:40, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
- The article is still under works so more content is planned to be added along this lines. There are Dacian ceramics and objects, some in the Constanta Museum. Planning to add pictures and content on that. But for one, check the Dacian town section. It is properly sourced and clarifies that statement. The city name is obviously Geto-Dacian, and unlike other davae it withstand the test of time. That says something too. --Codrin.B (talk) 15:02, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- Any source for Dacian ceramics pre-dating the Roman fort? The Getic name doesn't confirm a pre-existent settlement on the spot, it's just that a rather late Getic toponym for a Roman fort. As for withstanding the test of time, as basically every Roman settlement in the region (excepting the dubious claims about Harsova and Constanta), no ancient name was preserved. So the name only says that the Romanian authorities didn't like the name Calachioi for one of the best preserved Roman forts on the Romanian controlled part of the Danube, so they decided to resurrect an ancient name.Anonimu (talk) 15:49, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- Do you have any reliable source that is doubting the Dacian Capidava's location at the current identified spot of Topalu commune ? Boldwin (talk) 10:27, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- If there is no newer research proving the 90 years old knowledge wrong, the sources are just fine. Not only fine, but good as the information came from reliable, respected archaeologists like Pârvan, Florescu and most recently Opriş who spent a lot of their time on site. --Codrin.B (talk) 03:00, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- Do you have any reliable source that is doubting the Dacian Capidava's location at the current identified spot of Topalu commune ? Boldwin (talk) 10:27, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
The article currently says "fortified Geto-Dacian center". But the two more recent sources do not support that claim:
- [1] : (assumed) pre-Roman settlements, Roman fort ("mici garnizoane romane s-au instalat in vechile asezari dacice de pe malul Dunarii, intre altele si la Capidava", "Imparatul Traian, in cadrul pregatirilor razboaielor daco-romane avea sa construiasca, cu detasamente ale Legiunilor V Macedonica de la Troesmis si XI Claudia de la Durostorum un castellum pe stanca de la Capidava" a.k.a. "fortul de la Capidava", "Toponimul getic de Capidava - insemnand cetatea de la cotitura- confirma o locuire preromana, pozitia geografica deosebita explicand insemnatatea asezarii bastinase, loc care permitea comunicatia intre dacii din Dobrogea si cei din Campia Munteana")
- [2]: "The camp was raised in early 2nd century, duirng Emperor Trajan's reign, as a defence element of the Danubian limes. Capidava must have been built by a detachment of Legion XI Claudia, brought by Trajan to Durostorum after the conquest of Dacia." (nothing about a pre-Roman camp/fort/etc) On the same site, there's this text, translated after Opriş (see the previous ref): "old Dacian settlements", "[e]mperor Trajan [...] would build [...] a castellum on the cliff at Capidava [...] the fort at C[a]pidava". And here is the research history, as you can see it's all about Roman and Byzantine periods. Daizus (talk) 16:31, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- Roman Capidava took its name from the nearby old Geto-Dacic dava ‘settlement’ Florescu and Miclea (1980)
- Here: http://www.capidava.ro/territorium.php it can be seen Suceveanu's opinion ( 1991 p. 31, 51-52, 55)) about the nearby (civitas ?; vicus ?) pre-Roman settlement related to the traco-getic name....Boldwin (talk) 18:20, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- Daizus, leaving aside ancient sources, common sense and logic, there are four (!) archaeologists and historians who spent significant times of there careers at Capidava, and who saying "Geto-Dacian center". Are you accusing all of them of OR? This is ridiculous.
- Regarding sources specifically, this is from capidava.ro, by Opris in 2006 (!). I will cite directly the paper, if citing the site is confusing and makes it hard to find the info.
- Regarding being a Roman center, of courses it is! But this doesn't meant it wasn't a Dacian center before. They are not mutually exclusive. Your quotes above prove nothing and the info is already used in the Roman section of the article.--Codrin.B (talk) 01:08, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- The cimec source says this "The Getic toponym of Capidava - meaning the curve fortified settlement - confirms a pre-Roman dwelling, while the special geographic position explains the significance of the local settlement, a place that made possible the communication between the Dacians in Dobrudja and those in the Wallachian Plain. Tabula Peutingeriana provided accurate data on the distances between Axiopolis, Capidava and Carsium. These distances coincide with the distances between the present localities of Hinog - Capidava and Capidava - Harşova. The check on the table can be made through the uncovering of a marking pillar in the locality of Seimenii Mici that indicates the distance of 18,000 feet from Axiopolis to Capidava, that is 27 km."
- Pârvan in Getica: pp 54-55 (1982 edition) or 88-89 (1926 edtion): "Am avea deci regatul lui Roles Între Durostonlln-Abritus-Axiopolis, regatul lui Dapyx spre Capidava-Carsium, cu interiorul spre Ulmetum-Histria (e de fapt aici cel de-al doilea mare centru dacic al Dobrogei: territorium Capidavense). --Codrin.B (talk) 01:38, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
I added the POV tag for the emphasis on "Geto-Dacians" and the undue weight given to some minority/obsolete views. Examples:
- The article starts with Capidava was Geto-Dacian settlement. Wrong! Most sources (including those quoted for the "Geto-Dacian settlement") emphasize it was first and foremost a Roman fort. The pre-Roman settlement might have not been in the same place (see above "la o oarecare distanta de cetate").
- The modern village Capidava only recently was renamed that way, the article misleads the reader to believe there's a sort of continuity.
- It is POV, but also it goes against WP:PSTS by mentioning Calidava as a valid name in the lead (wheres this is a scribal error).
- It mentions Dacians attested epigraphically, but no Romans at all. Moreover that mention falls under WP:OR, because Tsinna, Zura et Tsiru, the sons of Bassus, raised that epitaph in the Roman fort Capidava, not in a "Dacian town" as presented in the article.
- Many statements are supported only by obsolete refs. E.g. "By 130-150 AD the former Dacian center Capidava was already Romanized" (Pârvan), whereas all the recent refs state clearly Capidava was a Roman fort built by Trajan. Daizus (talk) 02:16, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
Maybe the sources don't spell "fortified", although that's the meaning of "dava", but all four of them state "important Geto-Dacian center", which would be plainly ridiculous to be assumed as unfortified. Even if there are no stones to point to. I have to say Daizus, you show a great team spirit and your are very inclined for collaboration.... I am VERY disappointed by your attitude. Even if your are right 100%, your attitude and lack of respect for other's work, your inability to diplomatically say what you think and stir people where your want, work against you. Dai cu barda frate, nu sti sa te comporti intre oameni. Not only that there are so few that spend time writing articles about Dacia, but the few who do, you manage to chase away. I never seen a positive comment from you, a thank you, a "good job" on that section. Nothing. 100% sour grape. Who's purpose does it serve? --Codrin.B (talk) 02:34, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- What makes a "Dacian town"? A town run by the Dacians or a town where Dacians still live after the Roman conquest? Or maybe both? Your comments are exaggerations, and full of sophistry. The lead has all the variants, including Calidava, scribal error, but needs to be mentioned. Why would you even pick on such a think if not just out of a desire for conflict? --Codrin.B (talk) 02:43, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Who said something about continuity in Capidava the village? What part is misleading? This is completely invented by you. You know when then name was used again? Bring the source and put the info there. --Codrin.B (talk) 02:46, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- With your insults (both in English and in Romanian), and with your attitude (adding an [original research?] tag is "lack of respect"?), your project just lost one of its members. Keep up the good work! Daizus (talk) 02:47, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- This is not MY project. If you care about Dacia and have a genuine interest in making the information available in English to the world (most of if it is not), then you do it, project or not. Wikipedia, and yes this project too, needs team players, good communicators, people who can say thank you, make a compliment, have dialog, not just put "or" tag all over the place without even attempting a dialog. I am not offended by the tag, but by the negativity, lack of respect, lack of diplomacy, by people who spend time deleting instead of adding. That offends me. You could have written a note on my page "Codrin, great work on Capidava, thanks for the effort on creating the article and obtaining all the pictures. But I think some parts need some work, since they might be interpreted as OR". Did you do that? No! You shoot without a warning, like this is a war zone, not a friendly, academic, collaborative environment. I don't hold grudges but can't accept ill treatment either. You do what you wish. Your great contributions will be missed, your negativity not at all.--Codrin.B (talk) 02:54, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- With your insults (both in English and in Romanian), and with your attitude (adding an [original research?] tag is "lack of respect"?), your project just lost one of its members. Keep up the good work! Daizus (talk) 02:47, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- There was discussion before adding that tag and I haven't deleted anything. You can be thankful I'm not reporting you for blatant violations of WP:NPA, but I will if you continue in the same manner.
- I care about this only as long as there is a slight chance of improvement. I'm already tired of checking every ref, just because people are not genuinely interested in making information available, but in using Wikipedia to promote their own theories, their own views. And getting insulted for that is really too much. Au revoir! Daizus (talk) 03:05, 1 April 2011 (UTC)