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Origins of COVID-19: Current consensus
- There is no consensus on whether the lab leak theory is a "conspiracy theory" or a "minority scientific viewpoint". (RfC, February 2021)
- There is consensus against defining "disease and pandemic origins" (broadly speaking) as a form of biomedical information for the purpose of WP:MEDRS. However, information that already fits into biomedical information remains classified as such, even if it relates to disease and pandemic origins (e.g. genome sequences, symptom descriptions, phylogenetic trees). (RfC, May 2021)
- In multiple prior non-RFC discussions about manuscripts authored by Rossana Segreto and/or Yuri Deigin, editors have found the sources to be unreliable. Specifically, editors were not convinced by the credentials of the authors, and concerns were raised with the editorial oversight of the BioEssays "Problems & Paradigms" series. (Jan 2021, Jan 2021, Jan 2021, Feb 2021, June 2021, ...)
- The consensus of scientists is that SARS-CoV-2 is likely of zoonotic origin. (January 2021, May 2021, May 2021, May 2021, June 2021, June 2021, WP:NOLABLEAK (frequently cited in discussions))
- The March 2021 WHO report on the origins of SARS-CoV-2 should be referred to as the "WHO-convened report" or "WHO-convened study" on first usage in article prose, and may be abbreviated as "WHO report" or "WHO study" thereafter. (RfC, June 2021)
- The "manufactured bioweapon" idea should be described as a "conspiracy theory" in wiki-voice. (January 2021, February 2021, May 2021, May 2021, June 2021, June 2021, June 2021, June 2021, July 2021, July 2021, July 2021, August 2021)
- The scientific consensus (and the Frutos et al. sources ([1][2]) which support it), which dismisses the lab leak, should not be described as "
based in part on Shi [Zhengli]'s emailed answers.
" (RfC, December 2021) - The American FBI and Department of Energy finding that a lab leak was likely should not be mentioned in the lead of COVID-19 lab leak theory, because it is WP:UNDUE. (RFC, October 2023)
- The article COVID-19 lab leak theory may not go through the requested moves process between 4 March 2024 and 3 March 2025. (RM, March 2024)
Sources
List of good sources with good coverage to help expand. Not necessarily for inclusion but just for consideration. Preferably not articles that just discuss a single quote/press conference. The long-style reporting would be even better. Feel free to edit directly to add to the list. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 17:39, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
Scholarship
- Frutos, Roger; Gavotte, Laurent; Devaux, Christian A. (March 2021). "Understanding the origin of COVID-19 requires to change the paradigm on zoonotic emergence from the spillover to the circulation model". Infection, Genetics and Evolution: 104812. doi:10.1016/j.meegid.2021.104812.
- Singh, Devika; Yi, Soojin V. (April 2021). "On the origin and evolution of SARS-CoV-2". Experimental & Molecular Medicine. 53 (4): 537–547. doi:10.1038/s12276-021-00604-z.
- Hakim, Mohamad S. (14 February 2021). "SARS‐CoV‐2, Covid‐19, and the debunking of conspiracy theories". Reviews in Medical Virology. doi:10.1002/rmv.2222. ISSN 1052-9276.
- Barh, Debmalya; Silva Andrade, Bruno; Tiwari, Sandeep; Giovanetti, Marta; Góes-Neto, Aristóteles; Alcantara, Luiz Carlos Junior; Azevedo, Vasco; Ghosh, Preetam (1 September 2020). "Natural selection versus creation: a review on the origin of SARS-COV-2". Le Infezioni in Medicina. 28 (3): 302–311. ISSN 1124-9390. PMID 32920565.
- Graham, Rachel L.; Baric, Ralph S. (19 May 2020). "SARS-CoV-2: Combating Coronavirus Emergence". Immunity. 52 (5): 734–736. doi:10.1016/j.immuni.2020.04.016. ISSN 1074-7613. PMC 7207110. PMID 32392464.
- Zhang, Yong-Zhen; Holmes, Edward C. (April 2020). "A Genomic Perspective on the Origin and Emergence of SARS-CoV-2". Cell. 181 (2): 223–227. doi:10.1016/j.cell.2020.03.035.
Journalism
- Kasprak, Alex (16 July 2021). "The 'Occam's Razor Argument' Has Not Shifted in Favor of a Lab Leak". Snopes.com. Retrieved 18 July 2021.
- Thacker, Paul D. (8 July 2021). "The covid-19 lab leak hypothesis: did the media fall victim to a misinformation campaign?". BMJ. 374: n1656. doi:10.1136/bmj.n1656. ISSN 1756-1833.
- Jacobsen, Rowan (June 29, 2021). "Inside the risky bat-virus engineering that links America to Wuhan". MIT Technology Review.
- McKelvey, Tara (27 June 2021). "Wuhan lab-leak theory fuels Trump comeback rally". BBC News.
- Fay Cortez, Michelle (27 June 2021). "The Last—And Only—Foreign Scientist in the Wuhan Lab Speaks Out". Bloomberg News. Retrieved 18 July 2021.
- Regalado, Antonio (June 25, 2021). "They called it a conspiracy theory. But Alina Chan tweeted life into the idea that the virus came from a lab". MIT Technology Review.
- Hvistendahl, Mara (June 19, 2021). "I Visited a Chinese Lab at the Center of a Biosafety Debate. What I Learned Helps Explain the Clash Over Covid-19's Origins". The Intercept.
- Ling, Justin (15 June 2021). "The Lab Leak Theory Doesn't Hold Up". Foreign Policy.
- Folmer, Kaitlyn (14 June 2021). "Nature-based or lab leak? Unraveling the debate over the origins of COVID-19". ABC News.
- Wallace-Wells, David (12 June 2021). "The Implications of the Lab-Leak Hypothesis". Intelligencer.
- Larson, Christina; Merchant, Nomaan (9 June 2021). "EXPLAINER: The US investigation into COVID-19 origins". AP NEWS. Retrieved 18 July 2021.
- Evans, Anna Muldoon, Nicholas G. (18 June 2021). "There Is No Good Way to Even Investigate the Lab Leak Theory". Slate Magazine.
{{cite web}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) - Maxmen, Amy; Mallapaty, Smriti (8 June 2021). "The COVID lab-leak hypothesis: what scientists do and don't know". Nature. 594 (7863): 313–315. doi:10.1038/d41586-021-01529-3.
- Jacobsen, Rowan (June 6, 2021). "How amateur sleuths broke the Wuhan Lab story and embarrassed the media". Newsweek.
{{cite news}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (link) (The reliability of Newsweek post-2013 is debated and context-specific. One rationale for why this particular source is probably not unreliable is presented here.) - Eban, Katherine (3 June 2021). "The Lab-Leak Theory: Inside the Fight to Uncover COVID-19's Origins". Vanity Fair.
- Sohn, Rebecca (3 June 2021). "A Very Calm Guide to the Lab Leak Theory". Slate Magazine.
- Palus, Shannon (29 May 2021). "Just Because We're Talking About the Lab Leak Theory Doesn't Mean It's Come True". Slate Magazine.
- Brumfiel, Geoff (28 May 2021). "Many Scientists Still Think The Coronavirus Came From Nature". NPR.org.
- Zimmer, Carl; Gorman, James; Mueller, Benjamin (27 May 2021). "Scientists Don't Want to Ignore the 'Lab Leak' Theory, Despite No New Evidence". The New York Times.
- Hinshaw, Drew; Page, Jeremy (27 May 2021). "Time Is Running Out in Covid-19 Origins Inquiry, Say WHO-Led Team Members". Wall Street Journal. Retrieved 18 July 2021.
- Hinshaw, Michael R. Gordon, Warren P. Strobel and Drew (23 May 2021). "WSJ News Exclusive Intelligence on Sick Staff at Wuhan Lab Fuels Debate on Covid-19 Origin". Wall Street Journal.
{{cite web}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) - Wallace-Wells, Benjamin (27 May 2021). "The Sudden Rise of the Coronavirus Lab-Leak Theory". The New Yorker.
- Maxmen, Amy (27 May 2021). "Divisive COVID 'lab leak' debate prompts dire warnings from researchers". Nature. 594 (7861): 15–16. doi:10.1038/d41586-021-01383-3.
- Whipple, Tom (27 May 2021). "Could a Wuhan lab leak really be to blame for Covid?". The Times.
- Kessler, Glenn (25 May 2021). "Timeline: How the Wuhan lab-leak theory suddenly became credible". The Washington Post.
- Jacobsen, Rowan (May 13, 2021). "Top researchers are calling for a real investigation into the origin of covid-19". MIT Technology Review.
- Wade, Nicholas (5 May 2021). "The origin of COVID: Did people or nature open Pandora's box at Wuhan?". Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists.
- Gorman, James; Barnes, Julian E. (26 March 2021). "The C.D.C.'s ex-director offers no evidence in favoring speculation that the coronavirus originated in a lab". The New York Times.
- Baker, Nicholson (4 January 2021). "The Lab-Leak Hypothesis". Intelligencer.
- Jacobsen, Rowan (9 September 2020). "Could COVID-19 Have Escaped from a Lab?". Boston Magazine.
- Jacobsen, Rowan (14 May 2020). "The non-paranoid person's guide to viruses escaping from labs". Mother Jones.
Editorials from scholars
- Knight, Peter (21 June 2021). "COVID-19: why lab-leak theory is back despite little new evidence". The Conversation.
- Rodrigo, Allen (June 14, 2021). "The COVID-19 lab-leak hypothesis is plausible because accidents happen. I should know". The Conversation.
- Seyran, Murat; Pizzol, Damiano; Adadi, Parise; El‐Aziz, Tarek M. A.; Hassan, Sk. Sarif; Soares, Antonio; Kandimalla, Ramesh; Lundstrom, Kenneth; Tambuwala, Murtaza; Aljabali, Alaa A. A.; Lal, Amos; Azad, Gajendra K.; Choudhury, Pabitra P.; Uversky, Vladimir N.; Sherchan, Samendra P.; Uhal, Bruce D.; Rezaei, Nima; Brufsky, Adam M. (March 2021). "Questions concerning the proximal origin of SARS‐CoV‐2". Journal of Medical Virology. 93 (3): 1204–1206. doi:10.1002/jmv.26478.
- Rasmussen, Angela L. (January 2021). "On the origins of SARS-CoV-2". Nature Medicine. 27 (1): 9–9. doi:10.1038/s41591-020-01205-5. ISSN 1546-170X. Retrieved 18 July 2021.
- Hayes, Polly (13 July 2020). "Here's how scientists know the coronavirus came from bats and wasn't made in a lab". The Conversation.
Editorials from journalists
- Grant, Bob (July 1, 2021). "Labs, Leaks, and Liability". The Scientist. (editorial on how media covers the hypothesis)
- Ridley, Matt; Chan, Alina (April 10, 2021). "Bats, pangolins, wet market, lab? The mystery deepens". The Weekend Australian Magazine.
Your question
This is an area I'm not at all familiar with, but I'd recommend not deviating from the official line too much here. This is a fascinating theory and one that may very well in the future be vindicated, but for now it remains in the realm of pseudoscience. Sorry I can't help further, and keep up the good work. Daedalus 96 (talk) 19:21, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- it's not a theory, it's a hypothesis, hence the name. Hypotheses are the stuff of science, and your confusion about this shows you are not qualified to make a judgement about what is pseudoscience. 2603:8001:9500:9E98:0:0:0:9A7 (talk) 07:35, 22 February 2021 (UTC)
- In this instance, the distinction between the two is pedantic at best. What is an hypothesis but a theory that "might in the future be vindicated"? Please learn some manners before responding to me in future. You will not win any supporters for your cause by being puerile or obnoxious, especially to those who are broadly in sympathy with it to begin with. Daedalus 96 (talk) 21:16, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
- Actually, a hypothesis is just a single assumption while a theory is a system of assumptions and conclusions. Theories are the stuff of science, while hypotheses can be all over the map. So, you are right in principle, though not in wording, and the IP drew wrong conclusions. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:39, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
- In this instance, the distinction between the two is pedantic at best. What is an hypothesis but a theory that "might in the future be vindicated"? Please learn some manners before responding to me in future. You will not win any supporters for your cause by being puerile or obnoxious, especially to those who are broadly in sympathy with it to begin with. Daedalus 96 (talk) 21:16, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
Conflicting redirects
COVID-19 lab leak hypothesis and COVID-19 lab leak theory redirect to two separate pages. That can't be right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jikybebna (talk • contribs) 08:10, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
- Jikybebna, I agree, that will need to be fixed, if/when this survives AfD and the merge discussion.--Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 21:14, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- And as of right now, Lab leak theory redirects to Investigations into the origin of COVID-19, Lab leak hypothesis redirects to Nicholas Wade, COVID-19 lab leak conspiracy theory redirects to COVID-19 misinformation, and Lab leak redirects to List of laboratory biosecurity incidents. The last one makes sense. The first 3 reflect just how muddied and politicized the phrase "lab leak" has become. --Animalparty! (talk) 23:08, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
Unblanking
Following this discussion [3], I am unblanking this page. Pinging involved admins CambridgeBayWeather, ToBeFree, HighInBC and DGG. Courtesy pings to involved editors: Arcturus, Jweiss11, Extraordinary Writ and Jclemens, Loksmythe, Hobit, SmokeyJoe, Robert McClenon, 力, Goszei, Adoring nanny, Almaty, Forich, Terjen Empiricus-sextus, My very best wishes, Kashmiri, SMcCandlish, Drbogdan Geogene, Dream_Focus, and Guest2625. I have also written an essay on why Wikipedia should have a page on this hypothesis, regardless of whether it is proven or disproven in the end. Happy editing. CutePeach (talk) 11:20, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- Note: just to make it more clear, we're talking about Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2021 June 7 -- RoySmith (talk) 13:32, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- Hi CutePeach, you have restored the discussed text, with exactly one modification: Removing the maintenance templates. Which part of "this particular draft isn't worth restoring" and "write a new article" in the closure is unclear? ~ ToBeFree (talk) 11:28, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- Unblanking looks highly problematic, especially as it seems to involve misrepresentation of what was agreed (maybe, a new draft). Alexbrn (talk) 11:31, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
@ToBeFree:, this version of the article is different to the deleted one [4]. I was just about to start making improvements and then it got blanked again. Whatever happened to Wikipedia:Wikipedia is a work in progress? Some of the sections in the body need rewriting for style and clarity, but otherwise the article is largely faithful to the sources cited.
RoySmith, were you aware that this version of the draft was published as an article? Unblanking was clearly alluded to in the deletion review. CutePeach (talk) 12:25, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- The deletion review was of a draft. This misreading of the close, and the above ping list heavily loaded with wiki-friends, all smells pretty bad. Alexbrn (talk) 12:29, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- That revision has way too many issues for it to be reasonable to expect people to vet for policy compliance. It also has the problem of being exhaustingly repetitive on quotes and for omitting a lot of details. I also agree that a new draft should be started. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 12:39, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- Ah. I looked at the timestamps and noticed that, as you can verify in Special:Diff/1009196063/1034189301 (2021-02-27 equal to today), the restored revision of the article already long existed at time of the deletion review (2021-06-07). ~ ToBeFree (talk) 12:49, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- @ToBeFree: did the deletion review of the draft have any bearing on this related article? Once we hear back from RoySmith on whether he knew about this article and what Jweiss11,SmokeyJoe and DGG meant about removing the redirect, can you please decide on whether we move this article back to draftspace or unblank it? I have pinged the above editors, not because they are my wiki-friends, but because they have expressed interest in building an encyclopedic entry on this notable topic. CutePeach (talk) 13:19, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- I'm in two minds about this. On one hand, I'd say a MfD discussion usually doesn't affect a different mainspace article about the same topic as the discussed draft. On the other hand, the exact restored revision did exist during the latest discussion, that discussion happened less than a month ago, and the usual approach to create an AfD discussion about this would probably exhaust the community's patience (IDHT/FORUMSHOP). The whole situation isn't ideal. The easiest way out of the mess is to write an entirely new article about the topic from scratch, here in mainspace. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 13:22, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- .... which would be a recipe for a fringey WP:POVFORK. Alexbrn (talk) 13:29, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- ...to which a normal response would be improvement or a proper AfD discussion leading to a general result about the topic, not the current content. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 13:31, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- But there's a consensus (at DRV) that the page may exist at that title. I agree with that opinion. I also think restarting in mainspace is better, because in draftspace it's usually just like-minded people working on it, and thus the end product is more slanted on something contentious like this, and then people will call for it to be deleted. That is, in my mind, a procedural wrangling. If it's stubbified and then expanded collaboratively, it's more likely to be NPOV. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 13:32, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- That outcome mentions a "new draft", in bold. Alexbrn (talk) 13:53, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- I used the word "draft" as well above, but meant the actual definition of the word (ie starting all over again), and not as a shorthand for "the draft namespace". I suspect Roy used it in the same way. The close adds:
There was a running thread about the proper use of mainspace vs draft vs userspace vs POVFORK for controversial new article; I don't see any particular consensus there, which in turn means I'm not going to make any statement about where such a new attempt should be written.
Draftspace is also not mandated by any policy, for anything, about anything. - @Alexbrn: this revert with the summary
POVFORK
indicates that you fundamentally disagree with the consensus established at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2021 June 7 and will not accept any article at this title. You cannot simply ignore a community consensus as closed by an uninvolved administrator. If you think it's a POVFORK, gain consensus for your view at WP:AFD. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 13:58, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- I used the word "draft" as well above, but meant the actual definition of the word (ie starting all over again), and not as a shorthand for "the draft namespace". I suspect Roy used it in the same way. The close adds:
- That outcome mentions a "new draft", in bold. Alexbrn (talk) 13:53, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- .... which would be a recipe for a fringey WP:POVFORK. Alexbrn (talk) 13:29, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- @ToBeFree:, I am confused. If this is the text of the deleted draft [5], then this article is a much improved version, and shouldn’t be affected by the outcome of the MfD. From my understanding, the deletion review was a review of procedure, not the outcome of the MfD. I can start a new article but I just want to understand our predicament better. CutePeach (talk) 13:48, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- There has never been consensus for a standalone article, this is dealt with in the misinformation article and the investigation article, where it makes better sense per WP:NOPAGE. There is no reason to single it out as the one "hypothesis" that needs a special standalone article, and many reasons why this would be a bad idea. Alexbrn (talk) 13:51, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- I'm in two minds about this. On one hand, I'd say a MfD discussion usually doesn't affect a different mainspace article about the same topic as the discussed draft. On the other hand, the exact restored revision did exist during the latest discussion, that discussion happened less than a month ago, and the usual approach to create an AfD discussion about this would probably exhaust the community's patience (IDHT/FORUMSHOP). The whole situation isn't ideal. The easiest way out of the mess is to write an entirely new article about the topic from scratch, here in mainspace. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 13:22, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- @ToBeFree: did the deletion review of the draft have any bearing on this related article? Once we hear back from RoySmith on whether he knew about this article and what Jweiss11,SmokeyJoe and DGG meant about removing the redirect, can you please decide on whether we move this article back to draftspace or unblank it? I have pinged the above editors, not because they are my wiki-friends, but because they have expressed interest in building an encyclopedic entry on this notable topic. CutePeach (talk) 13:19, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- At least one page on this topic by itself is inevitable: This topic may have once been fringe, but is no longer fringe, so that consideration is irrelevant. (I can seetwo: one for the original fringe hypothesis, one for the science as it develops, and one for the political controversy. It's even possible there may turn out to be sufficient RW coverage to justify one on the WP handling of the subject. , It is probably but not certainly incorrect, but there's been too much discussion of the possibility to not warrant a separate article. Whether there should then be a section on the page this is presently redirected to can be discussed afterwards. (I personally think a redirect would be appropriate, because it just possibly might be looked for there. DGG ( talk ) 13:56, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- Since I was pinged here (as the DRV closer), I'll comment. I do need to make clear however that I'm firmly not wading into content issues, just process. So, here's what I see:
- This is the version of Draft:COVID-19 lab leak hypothesis which was the subject of Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:COVID-19 lab leak hypothesis and Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2021 June 7.
- I also see User:Boing! said Zebedee/COVID-19 lab leak theory which is substantially identical, so I assume there's been some copy-paste going on, which is a problem. Don't do that.
- Looking at this version of COVID-19 lab leak hypothesis noted as "unblanking as per Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2021 June 7" by CutePeach, I haven't figured out where that came from. Given the length, I'm assuming it's not all new text, which means it really needs to have proper attribution. Something like "reverting back to version xxxxx as per ...." would have been more appropriate.
- I also see that while I've been writing this, ProcrastinatingReader has started on a brand new version of COVID-19 lab leak hypothesis in mainspace (Special:Diff/1034204447) that appears to be from scratch. This is fully in compliance with my DRV close, so carry on. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:01, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
Verifiable vs Non-verifiable Claims
Please note that I have replaced "Wuhan Institute of Virology" with "a lab in Wuhan, China” as most proponents of the lab leak hypothesis do not implicate the WIV directly, such as Richard Ebright in this Counterpunch article [6]. If we are going to mention the WIV, it should be in the main body of the article, where the connection is properly explained. CutePeach (talk) 15:11, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- Most sources do, however. This article isn't about the promoters of the lab leak theory, it's about the RS coverage of it. WIV should be mentioned in some way, if not in the opening sentence. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 15:18, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
Some issues
Let's consider this version. Expansion would require including who promotes and promoted it, resulting in a similar article to the content at the misinformation article and perhaps information on the investigations one, both already more complete (and would be redundant)... —PaleoNeonate – 15:31, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- There can be overlap on content between articles; in fact, there often is. It doesn't help (per current consensus #1) we have no agreement on the best article for some of this information, and some of those articles can probably be trimmed with a link to this article. The misinformation article is 95k chars of readable prose, which is near the limit of WP:SIZERULE
- That being said, legitimate content has consistently been removed from those two articles, not due to fringe reasons or NPOV concerns, but simply because it (apparently) doesn't fall within scope. On the former, it's usually Alexbrn who removes citing "this article is about misinformation, which that is not". On the latter, it's usually others who say the added content is not relevant enough to the subject of the article. So a lot of information can be added here that doesn't fit within the others. If this article shouldn't exist, the case needs to be made at AfD, not by sheer force. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 15:41, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- Were you aware of the various previous incarnations that were deleted per consensus? Also, although one review closer supported it above, the closing statement was for a draft article. But with the current stub, we at least don't sport a huge misinformation article in mainspace... —PaleoNeonate – 15:56, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
Motivations
The article mentions Trump and allegations of racism, but missing is the attempt to sanction China in hope to offset a monumental domestic management failure, —PaleoNeonate – 15:59, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- I added something along those lines. If you know of other sources feel free to add. Separately, a list of good articles (scholarly and media) would be helpful in expanding the article, as I believe a lot has been lost over time. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 17:26, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- I think the source of most of the problem is the absence from this article of the elephant in the room: the bait-and-switch pushed by right wing media that takes tentative support for the possibility of a lab leak and turns this into a plea for false equivalency between the zoonotic and lab origin hypotheses. Lab origin has, as far as I can tell, virtually no serious support: all the available genetic and other evidence points to a zoonotic origin, and a lab origin is implausible for a number of reasons. Wuhan is a logical place to be studying a novel zoonotic coronavirus, and a leak from the lab as the origin of onward transmission has not been definitively ruled out - if it is even possible to do so. I think it's important to separate virus-origin with pandemic-origin here, especially with the disinformation being published by NewsCorp in Australia.
Merge proposal
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
COVID-19 lab leak hypothesis --> Investigations into the origin of COVID-19
This article is totally redundant with the coverage of the topic at Investigations into the origin of COVID-19, as well as Wuhan Institute of Virology and COVID-19 misinformation. Investigations into the origin of COVID-19 should be the main article that discusses the lab leak claims, and there is no need for a second article that duplicates the coverage, especially with the current two paragraphs the article has now. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:57, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
Survey
- Support Merge. Agreed. I think the very nature of the Investigations article tells us that it will have the exact same DUE/UNDUE requirements as this new article, and therefore will very likely duplicate entirely the contents. And where it does not duplicate, it will very likely become a POVFORK, serving as a slightly less frequented article to hang POV statements. This is a bit analogous to the relationship between CIA Kennedy assassination conspiracy theory and John_F._Kennedy_assassination_conspiracy_theories. And it takes only a quick glance over the former to see how messy of a situation that is, full of POVFORK-type inclusions and FRINGE content not properly contextualized with the mainstream view. I think we should avoid that fate at all costs.
- For an example of this done well, I would point to Moon landing Hoax Claims section of the Moon_landing_conspiracy_theories article. This second set is a situation where the notability and DUE nature of any content in one article should mirror exactly the other, and so they are the same article, one a subsection of the other. If we are to do an expansion of this section of the Investigations article, with careful attention paid to NPOV and RSUW, then I think that would be much preferable to an independent article.--Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 20:25, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose merge/delete A lot of reliable sources are now covering this, so the situation has changed. There is enough valid sourced information to make an article. I started at [7] Dream Focus 20:53, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
Discussion
- You're not proposing merging, defined at WP:MERGE as
A merger is the process of uniting two or more pages into a single page. It is done by copying some or all content from the source page(s) into the destination page and then replacing the source page with a redirect to the destination page.
You're saying the page is redundant to existing ones, and you're proposing effectively deleting it. So I don't understand why nobody wants to open an AFD? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:08, 18 July 2021 (UTC)- Because an AfD implies the topic is not notable, which is incorrect. There would be a lot of kneejerk AfD votes that would go "!keep obviously notable" without even addressing the deletion rationale. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:16, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- Well, according to the first sentence of WP:N, "notability is a test used by editors to decide whether a given topic warrants its own article." Isn't this the subject of the discussion? ~ ToBeFree (talk) 20:20, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- Many people at AfD's don't actually properly read the deletion rationale, and AfD's are only actively attended by a relatively small number of users. A AfD is likely to devolve into a long contenious discussion, similar to that seen for the MfD essays on this topic, which is something I am trying to avoid. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:32, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- Don't think either are true. AfD regularly deals with arguments based on NPOV/BLP/OR/other policies, successfully and as the primary venue. It has a reputation of doing so with high participation and wide diversity in policy arguments, the discussions are widely advertised, close after 7 days, and provide conclusive judgement. The merge process is plagued participation issues, is a poorly organised system, and discussions remain open for indefinite periods of time. No matter, I am happy to oblige and make a procedural nomination myself, and hopefully we can get a firm conclusion to this. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:56, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- Okay, I've started Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/COVID-19 lab leak hypothesis. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:01, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- Don't think either are true. AfD regularly deals with arguments based on NPOV/BLP/OR/other policies, successfully and as the primary venue. It has a reputation of doing so with high participation and wide diversity in policy arguments, the discussions are widely advertised, close after 7 days, and provide conclusive judgement. The merge process is plagued participation issues, is a poorly organised system, and discussions remain open for indefinite periods of time. No matter, I am happy to oblige and make a procedural nomination myself, and hopefully we can get a firm conclusion to this. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 20:56, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- Many people at AfD's don't actually properly read the deletion rationale, and AfD's are only actively attended by a relatively small number of users. A AfD is likely to devolve into a long contenious discussion, similar to that seen for the MfD essays on this topic, which is something I am trying to avoid. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:32, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- Well, according to the first sentence of WP:N, "notability is a test used by editors to decide whether a given topic warrants its own article." Isn't this the subject of the discussion? ~ ToBeFree (talk) 20:20, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
- Because an AfD implies the topic is not notable, which is incorrect. There would be a lot of kneejerk AfD votes that would go "!keep obviously notable" without even addressing the deletion rationale. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:16, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
Accidental lab leak of a natural virus
vs accidental leak of a modified virus
vs intentional bioweapon
We need to include all three of these in this article, because all of these, except 'intentional bioweapon' are easily described as part of a "lab leak" in the common vernacular. The bioweapon theory must be differentiated from this hypothesis, so it merits a small inclusion in this article as well.
We cannot continue to muddy these terms any further, and when we discuss them here, we really need to be very specific. Or else this article descends into the fate of basically every other COVID-19 origins article, namely arguing past each other for paragraphs and paragraphs. Differentiation of these things is key, and including discussion of all of them is key. See also a similar discussion at the COVID-19 wikiproject.--Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 21:02, 18 July 2021 (UTC)