Line 92: | Line 92: | ||
::I think we should stick to what the reference states and avoid any embellishment, whether based on OR or an overall perception of what the program was about. Isn't that why we use references and provide them for people to see for themselves? On a separate note, I don't believe yanking someone's security clearance (which ultimately terminates their employment)constitutes a "physical threat". Security Clearances are funny things, they can and do yank them for some pretty silly ****. As for psychological warfare, the basis for wondering if it's relevant is because if it were widely believed to be the case, you'd think the term would appear somewhere in the Church Committee report- but it doesn't, not once. The reason this even came up is the continued claim by people who claim to be victims of "gang stalking" continue to reference COINTELPRO as a precedent to validate their claims- some are real and are likely the targets of some program, many others- perhaps the majority- appear to be suffering from delusions, in particular claiming people surround them all day jangling keys, pretending to talk on cell phones, wearing certain colored clothing, even automobiles driving by them with a license plate of a certain numerical sequence only having significance to them- to torment them with "psychological abuse". One gentleman even claims up to a thousand cars are parked daily in his city along the route he walks in specific color order, part of his ruination. |
::I think we should stick to what the reference states and avoid any embellishment, whether based on OR or an overall perception of what the program was about. Isn't that why we use references and provide them for people to see for themselves? On a separate note, I don't believe yanking someone's security clearance (which ultimately terminates their employment)constitutes a "physical threat". Security Clearances are funny things, they can and do yank them for some pretty silly ****. As for psychological warfare, the basis for wondering if it's relevant is because if it were widely believed to be the case, you'd think the term would appear somewhere in the Church Committee report- but it doesn't, not once. The reason this even came up is the continued claim by people who claim to be victims of "gang stalking" continue to reference COINTELPRO as a precedent to validate their claims- some are real and are likely the targets of some program, many others- perhaps the majority- appear to be suffering from delusions, in particular claiming people surround them all day jangling keys, pretending to talk on cell phones, wearing certain colored clothing, even automobiles driving by them with a license plate of a certain numerical sequence only having significance to them- to torment them with "psychological abuse". One gentleman even claims up to a thousand cars are parked daily in his city along the route he walks in specific color order, part of his ruination. |
||
::So I'm not here to minimize or trivialize what's happened to you, in fact if anything I'd like to prevent that by avoiding such silliness to be associated with COINTELPRO, because if it were, then people would eventually associate COINTELPRO with being delusional- and if such a program IS going on still today, allowing it to be claimed by the delusional that it's happening to them, provides cover for it and keeps them from treatment which could benefit them. In the end I'm about the facts, and what is verifiable. Not believed. With all the above in mind let me know if there's a way we can modify this to your satisfaction.[[User:Batvette|Batvette]] ([[User talk:Batvette|talk]]) 21:19, 25 April 2012 (UTC) |
::So I'm not here to minimize or trivialize what's happened to you, in fact if anything I'd like to prevent that by avoiding such silliness to be associated with COINTELPRO, because if it were, then people would eventually associate COINTELPRO with being delusional- and if such a program IS going on still today, allowing it to be claimed by the delusional that it's happening to them, provides cover for it and keeps them from treatment which could benefit them. In the end I'm about the facts, and what is verifiable. Not believed. With all the above in mind let me know if there's a way we can modify this to your satisfaction.[[User:Batvette|Batvette]] ([[User talk:Batvette|talk]]) 21:19, 25 April 2012 (UTC) |
||
:::I never said that the FBI's threat to yank my father's security clearance constituted a "physical threat." I did say that it was an example of psychological warfare--the FBI wanted to get to me by threatening to end my father's career as a nuclear physicist, which began with the Manhatten Project and ended with research into ceramic bead storage of nuclear waste in 1983. You do seem to want to "trivialize" what the loss of his career would have meant for him, my mother, and the rest of our family. Plenty of other sources use the term "psychological warfare;" that the Church Committee members didn't happen to use that particular phrase is hardly a reason not to use it. Perhaps you just haven't read widely enough among the sources offered. |
|||
:::(BTW, I did not write the section in question, though I do agree with it.) |
|||
:::I'm going to relate another OR example in hopes of convincing you that the FBI's use of physical threats was a common ploy. At the height of my involvement in the anti-Vietnam war movement, I arrived home one day to find a man in a dark suit sitting on the living room couch in my Berkeley home. "Who are you?" I demanded, startled to see him. "I'm here from the FBI and I need to ask you some questions," came his reply as he flashed a badge. The front door had been locked and he had let himself in. He had also searched the entire house, as was evident from the open drawers and personal belongings tossed about. "Do you have a warrant?" I asked. To which he replied, "Look,(my last name), I don't need no fucking warrant. If I really wanted you I'd just hit you over the head and take you with me, and that would be the end of it!" We were alone in the house, and I decided my best protection was to take it public, so I turned and walked out the front door, despite his protests. It was a busy street, and I wanted witnesses if he was going to assault me. I shouted for anyone to hear, "This man is an FBI agent. He broke into my home and is threatening to assault me!!!" Obviously enraged, he quickly walked away. |
|||
a |
|||
:::I can't address the issue of "gang stalking" and the nut cases who use COINTELPRO to justify their fears. The article as written is factual and duly sourced. I don't see any "embellishment." [[User:Apostle12|Apostle12]] ([[User talk:Apostle12|talk]]) 04:41, 26 April 2012 (UTC) |
Revision as of 04:41, 26 April 2012
This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||
Academic standards, please.
- Citing a PBS webpage (basically, an editorial) is emphatically not up to academic standards for an assertion as strong as "assassination."
- Assertions of terrorism are no go as well.. that's an editorial stance, plus the use of the words "terrorist" and "terrorism" is verboten in Wikipedia (unless referring to the US, apparently). Ling.Nut (talk) 08:35, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
- Um, what? Where are you getting the idea that terrorism is a "forbidden word?" Beeblebrox (talk) 21:57, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
- I don't personally use the word "terrorism" (too imprecise), however I see plenty of references to "anti-terrorism" on Wikipedia, which would seem to indicate that "terrorism" shouldn't be off limits. Please explain: are you one of those editors who just make up rules and state them in an officious way hoping to hold sway with other editors?Apostle12 (talk) 06:21, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
- Please see the fever swamp that is Wikipedia:Words to avoid. Using "terrorist" or "terrorism" or whatever with respect to any individual or organization has been strictly nixed by folks who support the IRA and similar organizations. What's good for the goose is good for the gander: you can't use it with respect for US organizations, either. Cheers Ling.Nut (talk) 12:17, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
- Well, I see what you are talking about, but it's not that it's totally forbidden, WP:TERRORIST says "If a reliable source describes a person or group using one of these words, then the description must be attributed in the article text to its source, preferably by direct quotation, and always with a verifiable citation. If the term is used with a clear meaning by multiple reliable independent sources, then citations to several such sources should be provided in the sentence where it appears." so the issue is one of being absolutely certain that a reliable source described them in this manner. Al-Queda has an example of this, of course they've been called terrorists by lots and lots of sources, probably not the case here... Beeblebrox (talk) 16:43, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
- Please see the fever swamp that is Wikipedia:Words to avoid. Using "terrorist" or "terrorism" or whatever with respect to any individual or organization has been strictly nixed by folks who support the IRA and similar organizations. What's good for the goose is good for the gander: you can't use it with respect for US organizations, either. Cheers Ling.Nut (talk) 12:17, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
FBI COINTELPRO
In the 1960's, when COINTELPRO was active, Malcolm X was assassinated. The alleged perpetrators of this were thought of as related to the FBI as agentes provocteteures. Why is there no discussion of this topic, though it appears germane, and the "target", was well within the scope that is documented the COINTELPRO's range? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.210.30.160 (talk) 03:20, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
deletion of edit
I am a lawyer. I tried to cite legal encyclopedia Corpus Juris Secundum. My edit was deleted within seconds.137.148.217.216 (talk) 14:48, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
Political assassinations
This article suggests that the FBI conducted political assassinations. If this is true, why is not one example of such an assassination provided? 69.133.126.117 (talk) 23:25, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- Please refer to the following section of "Methods" and its associated sources, especially those having to do with the assassination of Fred Hampton:
- Extralegal Force and Violence: The FBI conspired with local police departments to threaten dissidents; to conduct illegal break-ins in order to search dissident homes; and to commit vandalism, assaults, beatings and assassinations.[18][19][20]
- The FBI specifically developed tactics intended to heighten tension and hostility between various factions the black militancy movement, for example between the Black Panthers, the United Slaves and the Blackstone Rangers. This resulted in numerous deaths, among which were the United Slave assassinations of San Diego Black Panther Party members Jim Huggins, Bunchy Carter and Sylvester Bell.[18]
- The FBI also conspired with the police departments of many U.S. cities (San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Oakland, Philadelphia, Chicago) to encourage repeated raids on Black Panther homes—often with little or no evidence of violations of federal, state, or local laws—which resulted directly in the police killing of many members of the Black Panther Party, most famously the assassination of Chicago Black Panther Party Chairman Fred Hampton on December 4, 1969.[18][19][20]
- See, especially, Special Agent Swearigan's testimony, as well as the supporting statements in the Church Report--"D. Cooperation Between the Federal Bureau of Investigation and Local Police Departments in Disrupting the Black Panther Party"
- Some of this sounds like original research, or at least a shifting of weight towards a minority POV. Whatever our personal interpretations, I don't believe most mainstream sources describe these events as political assassinations, nor do they list political assassinations as one of the purposes of cointelpro. ClovisPt (talk) 20:02, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
- I believe the article stays on point by confirming that the purpose of Cointelpro was to protect national security, prevent violence, and maintain the existing social and political order through infiltration, disruption, marginalization, and subversion of the targeted groups. That the FBI used violent means to accomplish this purpose, including provoking violence among rival Black Nationalist groups, is beyond question--the official U.S. Congressional Church Report details exactly how the FBI went about these provocations and the deaths that occurred as a direct result. Special Agent Swearigan's testimony makes it clear that the FBI's intent was to terrorize Black Nationalist groups by partnering with local law enforcement to conduct deadly raids that resulted in several assassinations, including that of Fred Hampton. These facts are supported by mainstream sources, and they are widely accepted. Apostle12 (talk) 06:34, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- This is not OR -- many reliable sources refer to these as political assassinations, especially Fred Hampton. In fact, I know of very few reliable sources that don't call Fred Hampton's murder (a pre-planned murder, set up by the FBI once he was nominated as national spokesman for the BPP) an "assassination". -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 19:30, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, lost the "a": 3 or 4 students from Ron Karenga's black nationalist group US shot Bunchy Carter and another Panther. There are rumors (statement by Panther renegate Earl Anthony), that the LAPD or FBI helped the gunmen get away from the scene.--Radh (talk) 19:34, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
I do not believe that there is sufficient evidence on this page yet to suggest that any of these individuals were murdered directly on the orders of the FBI. If there is hard evidence, I suggest we provide it. If not, I suggest we remove the word "assassinations" from the page, or at least say that they have been ACCUSED of orchestrating assassinations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.10.90.26 (talk) 22:13, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
COINTELPRO Records
I have acquired and posted FBI records pertaining to the COINTELPRO operations directed at Violence Prone Yugoslav Emigres in U.S. http://historyanarchy.blogspot.com/2010/08/newly-declassified-cointelpro-files.html I tried to add them but the link got nuked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Historypunk (talk • contribs) 03:43, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Puerto Rico
I have to ask...why in the beginning is the independence for Puerto Rico in quotes ("")? Wikipedia is supposed to be unbiased. The fact that it is in quotes, supposes somebody's personal and subjective belief that puertorricans have no sound, legal claim for independence. The quotes imply that "independence for Puerto Rico" is a concept invented by a group. The UN has repeatedly spoken against US colonialism in Puerto Rico, and in favor of our claim for independence (as a distinct nation that was invaded and robbed as a geopolitical experiment in the Caribbean). I won't change it, but I ask here that the quotes be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.23.202.38 (talk) 00:59, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
US vs. United Slaves
While it is technically correct to refer to the US Organization by its formal name, much of the literature (both official and academic) refers to the US Organization as "the United Slaves." Perhaps we should mention this fact, since it did become common usage. Apostle12 (talk) 22:37, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
Einstein
Albert Einstein is listed as a target of CoIntelPro. Einstein died in 1955, and the article states that the CoIntelPro program began the next year, in 1956.
Can someone elaborate?
Aoss (talk) 08:22, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
- They were trying to disprove parts of his Theory of Relativity and travel back in time to harass him? Who knows? 69.42.13.45 (talk) 04:24, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
- Early FBI counterintelligence programs operated during the Roosevelt (FDR) and Truman administrations. Einstein became a U.S. citizen in 1940, and overt racism in Princeton, New Jersey inspired him to become involved in civil rights causes beginning in the late 1940s; his experiences with racism in Nazi Germany had sensitized him to this issue. Because American Communists attached themselves to the Civil Rights Movement, the movement itself attracted the attention of the FBI; Einstein came under surveillance during the years just prior to the official 1956 inaugeration of centralized counterintelligence programs under the COINTELPRO label. The article has now been corrected to reflect these realities and avoid the apparent contradiction. Apostle12 (talk) 19:46, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
Good article
Well done to those who have contributed to this page. This is a very well sourced article with great presentation.--217.35.82.108 (talk) 19:43, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
Methods: Fabricated Content
Whoever composed the section which described "psychological warfare" and attributed certain claims to Brian Glick's book appears to have wildly embellished what it actually says. A preview reveals war at home by brian glick it never said anything about family, friends, landlords etc being "strong armed" but that they were presented false media articles about people. Why do editors make this stuff up, is it that hard to translate simple English? As it stands I think this could even be called a fringe position that this amounts to "psychological warfare" and maybe it shouldn't be in that section or the lede either. There are prolific sources which describe COINTELPRO tactics, is Glick the only one who calls this psychological warfare? "Dirty tricks" is not psychological warfare to my knowledge.Batvette (talk) 02:14, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
- Glick's use of the term "psychological warfare" seems appropriate to me. Of course there are no FBI memos saying, "Now we are going to engage in psychological warfare," but all critics of FBI tactics during COINTELPRO agree that psychological warfare was involved. As far as the article's use of the term "strong armed" to describe tactics that Glick details, I suppose that is a matter of interpretation. In my opinion "strong armed" certainly applies--due to my involvement in Berkeley's anti-Vietnam War movement during the mid 1960s, my father was "strong-armed" by the FBI to get him to discourage my participation. Unless he agreed to co-operate, the FBI threatened to yank his security clearance, which would have made it impossible for him to continue his career at Lawrence Radiation Laboratories. He pretended to go along, and shortly my parents decided to move to Chicago where he could continue his career at Argonne National Laboratories in a less hostile environment. Again, to me "strong armed" seems quite an apt description, and I'm not sure why you object to this term. But we don't have to rely on personal stories such as my own, since to do so would constitute original research. Glick details a number of tactics and examples that could also be described as "strong arming." Or perhaps you don't think physical threats count, even when people's lives are threatened. In fact we know that the FBI's COINTELPRO tactics resulted quite directly in fatal clashes between the Black Panthers and the U.S. Organization. I think "psychological warfare" and "strong armed" should remain. Apostle12 (talk) 04:52, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
- I think we should stick to what the reference states and avoid any embellishment, whether based on OR or an overall perception of what the program was about. Isn't that why we use references and provide them for people to see for themselves? On a separate note, I don't believe yanking someone's security clearance (which ultimately terminates their employment)constitutes a "physical threat". Security Clearances are funny things, they can and do yank them for some pretty silly ****. As for psychological warfare, the basis for wondering if it's relevant is because if it were widely believed to be the case, you'd think the term would appear somewhere in the Church Committee report- but it doesn't, not once. The reason this even came up is the continued claim by people who claim to be victims of "gang stalking" continue to reference COINTELPRO as a precedent to validate their claims- some are real and are likely the targets of some program, many others- perhaps the majority- appear to be suffering from delusions, in particular claiming people surround them all day jangling keys, pretending to talk on cell phones, wearing certain colored clothing, even automobiles driving by them with a license plate of a certain numerical sequence only having significance to them- to torment them with "psychological abuse". One gentleman even claims up to a thousand cars are parked daily in his city along the route he walks in specific color order, part of his ruination.
- So I'm not here to minimize or trivialize what's happened to you, in fact if anything I'd like to prevent that by avoiding such silliness to be associated with COINTELPRO, because if it were, then people would eventually associate COINTELPRO with being delusional- and if such a program IS going on still today, allowing it to be claimed by the delusional that it's happening to them, provides cover for it and keeps them from treatment which could benefit them. In the end I'm about the facts, and what is verifiable. Not believed. With all the above in mind let me know if there's a way we can modify this to your satisfaction.Batvette (talk) 21:19, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- I never said that the FBI's threat to yank my father's security clearance constituted a "physical threat." I did say that it was an example of psychological warfare--the FBI wanted to get to me by threatening to end my father's career as a nuclear physicist, which began with the Manhatten Project and ended with research into ceramic bead storage of nuclear waste in 1983. You do seem to want to "trivialize" what the loss of his career would have meant for him, my mother, and the rest of our family. Plenty of other sources use the term "psychological warfare;" that the Church Committee members didn't happen to use that particular phrase is hardly a reason not to use it. Perhaps you just haven't read widely enough among the sources offered.
- (BTW, I did not write the section in question, though I do agree with it.)
- I'm going to relate another OR example in hopes of convincing you that the FBI's use of physical threats was a common ploy. At the height of my involvement in the anti-Vietnam war movement, I arrived home one day to find a man in a dark suit sitting on the living room couch in my Berkeley home. "Who are you?" I demanded, startled to see him. "I'm here from the FBI and I need to ask you some questions," came his reply as he flashed a badge. The front door had been locked and he had let himself in. He had also searched the entire house, as was evident from the open drawers and personal belongings tossed about. "Do you have a warrant?" I asked. To which he replied, "Look,(my last name), I don't need no fucking warrant. If I really wanted you I'd just hit you over the head and take you with me, and that would be the end of it!" We were alone in the house, and I decided my best protection was to take it public, so I turned and walked out the front door, despite his protests. It was a busy street, and I wanted witnesses if he was going to assault me. I shouted for anyone to hear, "This man is an FBI agent. He broke into my home and is threatening to assault me!!!" Obviously enraged, he quickly walked away.
a