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: I certainly don't object - my only reservation is that it's quite a long phrase compared to the one-word "Countries", but I can't think of a more succinct alternative that's still accurate, so I say go for it. [[User:Waggers|waggers]] ([[User talk:Waggers|talk]]) 21:16, 25 November 2008 (UTC) |
: I certainly don't object - my only reservation is that it's quite a long phrase compared to the one-word "Countries", but I can't think of a more succinct alternative that's still accurate, so I say go for it. [[User:Waggers|waggers]] ([[User talk:Waggers|talk]]) 21:16, 25 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:: Not to rain on the parade here but since when did "Northern Ireland" become a "country"? [[Special:Contributions/86.42.120.25|86.42.120.25]] ([[User talk:86.42.120.25|talk]]) 00:51, 26 November 2008 (UTC) |
Revision as of 00:51, 26 November 2008
British Isles was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||
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Current status: Delisted good article |
This article is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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"or even offensive"??
How about a compromise text in the intro? "The term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland,[4] where many people [5] find the term objectionable or even offensive; the Irish government also discourages its usage.[6] There is evidence that as a result of these problems, "Britain and Ireland" is becoming a preferred description. [7][8]" This moderates the "offensive", which is still very well supported by reference, but softens its impact. I hope this makes it less unpalatable to those who insist that there's no problem in the first place. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 10:15, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
- "Objectionable" is redundant if "offensive" is used; but "objectionable" includes "offensive", although that word itself is much abused. Also, "Britain and Ireland" is becoming "more common than it was before", not "a preferred description", nor "more common than British Isles". Alternatively, determine where it is becoming preferred and state that. Bazza (talk) 12:59, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
- But the references say offensive more than they say objectionable, so if we pick a single word it should be "offensive". As for "a preferred description", that's to match the phrasing of the sources and to avoid arguments about that. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 13:42, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
- Besides, offensive and objectionable don't mean the same thing. Someone could find it objectionable without finding it offensive. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 13:44, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
It's not just Irish, but also some Scots who find it offensive.--MacRusgail (talk) 23:08, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
- Can you supply some references to offended Scots? 79.155.245.81 (talk) 23:48, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
- Still pending data on offended Scots (which will be new to me!) Meantime, no coherent objection to my proposal, or suggestions. 79.155.154.185 (talk) 18:52, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
- I guess there are small numbers of every nationality who, for perverse reasons, find it "offensive". As for the Irish, I know many Irish people and I've visited the country on numerous occasions and I've yet to find anyone who gives a FF about it. Of course there are many opinionated, loudmouthed, nationalistic author types, a number of whom seem to be attracted to Wikipedia, who really do find it offensive. However, as a percentage of the overall Irish population we're probably talking less than 1. Have I a reference for this? No; because the vast majority of Irishmen are not opinionated, loudmouthed, nationalistic author types who try to ram their views down everyone else's throats. MidnightBlue (Talk) 19:33, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
- Interesting point about Scottish independence: why is Sctotland still part of the Union? 'Cos the majority of Scots want to be. MidnightBlue (Talk) 19:40, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
- Still pending data on offended Scots (which will be new to me!) Meantime, no coherent objection to my proposal, or suggestions. 79.155.154.185 (talk) 18:52, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
- "opinionated, loudmouthed, nationalistic author types who try to ram their views down everyone else's throats" Oh, the irony. Yours, Daicaregos (talk) 21:22, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
- Midnight Blue, kindly spare us good people your complete unadulterated shite regarding the views of the Irish people on this term. In fairness to yourself you do admit you are talking rubbish: "I've no references...". If you are so sure of Irish acceptance of the term "British Isles", maybe you could run for election in Ireland on your clearly preferred "Come now, Paddy, desist from this independence malarkey and rejoin the Empire, old bean" ticket? In the meantime, 1916 happened and the European Union happened: get over it for the love of sweet Jesus. Dunlavin Green (talk) 00:05, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- Well if MidnightBlue had a reputable source to say that Irish were opinionated loudmouthed nationalistic author types we might have to take it seriously. He doesn't, any more than he has a reference for his percentages. Meantime the sources say that many Irish find the term offensive, and we have a cracking good diff to prove that MidnightBlueMan - as he might put it - doesn't give a FF about verifiability. Another one to join the list. 79.155.154.185 (talk) 07:36, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- So, ignoring MidnightBlueMan for a moment, any other comment? Is it an acceptable proposal? 79.155.154.185 (talk) 08:55, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- No it isn't. You clearly don't understand what "offensive" means. See my Talk page for a discussion on the matter. MidnightBlue (Talk) 14:51, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- Once again, it matters not a jot whether you think it's offensive or not. Perhaps you are right and people ought not consider it offensive. However, it is verifiable fact that they do consider it offensive. So, once again, do you have sources to contradict the sources currently available? If not then we should disregard your views as unsupported and irrelevant. 79.155.154.185 (talk) 15:33, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- The references (on the refrences sub-page of this Talk page) which point to "offensiveness" are either weasel references, in which case they shouldn't be used, or qualify the nature of the offensiveness as applying only to Irish Nationalists. So if the word "offensive" should be included - and I don't believe it should be - then at the very least it should be qualified with details of precisely that group of people who do find the term offensive, i.e. Irish Nationalists. Are we sure they find it "offensive", as one would find the word nigger offensive, or is it just the case that they don't like it - I wonder? MidnightBlue (Talk) 17:02, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- Once again, it matters not a jot whether you think it's offensive or not. Perhaps you are right and people ought not consider it offensive. However, it is verifiable fact that they do consider it offensive. So, once again, do you have sources to contradict the sources currently available? If not then we should disregard your views as unsupported and irrelevant. 79.155.154.185 (talk) 15:33, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- No it isn't. You clearly don't understand what "offensive" means. See my Talk page for a discussion on the matter. MidnightBlue (Talk) 14:51, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- So, ignoring MidnightBlueMan for a moment, any other comment? Is it an acceptable proposal? 79.155.154.185 (talk) 08:55, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
(reduce indent) Can MidnightBlueMan please be specific WHICH references he thinks are weasel references? Otherwise he's just mimicking other editors whose argument is IDONTLIKEIT. If we start with the whole "nationalists" thing then we must include that since the great majority of Irish people are nationalist (and there's ref for that) therefore the great majority of Irish people find the term offensive. If that's the proposal then we can work on text to say that the great majority of Irish people find the term offensive. 79.155.154.185 (talk) 06:41, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- Unless there is a reliable source which makes the inference or syllogism you are trying to make use of ("Nationalists (tend to, almost all, mostly - which one is it?) find the term "British Isles" offensive"; And "The great majority of Irish people are nationalist"; Therefore "The great majority of Irish people find the term offensive") could well be said to be WP:OR. In fact, unless we are sure what is being argued, the conclusion may not be guaranteed anyway on logical grounds: the arrangement of the Nationalists who find the term offensive (one of the premises) together with the arrangement of the great majority of Irish people who are nationalist (the other premise) may mean their intersection (the conclusion) is not guaranteed to be "a great mjority of Irish people". That assumes that the individual premises in the syllogism (the logical form used) are true anyway, which I imagine is not as clear-cut as you make out. So, I think this argument fails as the reasoning is not safe, and the conclusion is not guaranteed to be valid, and is arguably Original Research anyway.
79.155.154.185 asked me if I could comment on the verifiable sources used here on my talk page, and this must necessarily include the validity with which such verifiable sources are used. If I have the time and inclination, I can do this, but such comments will "cut both ways", and I also think it would be to everyone's advantage is less practice in personal accusations, and more practice on hard critical thinking and reasoning would help editors here be more objective and less likely to inflame matters by making use of faulty and otherwise inappropriate reasoning. Come on, guys, the criticism of this argument is elementary stuff in reasoned argument. I'm also don't want to single out 79.155.154.185 in this, as I think all sides are not being as rigorous in this area, but I do want to thank him for raising the issue, which is a good point to make, about the quality of the evidence and (hence) the reasoning used to arrange them together. DDStretch (talk) 08:25, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- The sources do not use all the modifiers that DDStretch is using to try to imply that there might be synthesis (tend to, almost all, mostly). If we go with the "nationalist" line, instead of the simple "many" and "often" then we have to explain to readers who these "nationalists" are. They are "the great majority". Text would have to be like "The term 'British Isles' is offensive to Irish nationalists, which make up the great majority of the Irish population. " No synthesis, no syllogisms. There may be lots of people who DONTLIKEIT, but this would not be synthesis. Still a lot easier to stick with the simpler text and not to get political. 79.155.154.185 (talk) 08:46, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- Good, I asked for an elaboration to explain the argument you gave, and you have responded by giving one.
In which case, if it is as you say it is, then the modifier I asked about above would be an implicit "all", especially so, given what you write above.
I also note that you have apparently changed your position as well, since you are now omitting the sentence you put in the phrase I replied to: "The great majority of Irish people find the term offensive". This is a significant change for the good, as the absence of the conclusion removes the synthesis that drawing the conclusion would otherwise seem to make. There's nothing wrong with changing your position for good reasons, by the way. Indeed, it is the sign of a rational person to do so.
That still leaves the possibility that the reliable sources may not exactly allow us to state "The term 'British Isles' is offensive to Irish nationalists" and "[they] make up the great majority of the Irish population.", though I imagine some may think at least one of these statements is so obvious as to need no verificantion. These premises may themselves, if formed by particular interpretation of the reliable sources, be found to be synthetic in an undesirable way.
Remember, if you really feel that attention to the reliable sources, etc is required, and, hence, attention to the reasoning is important, then I am merely responding in ways that will help editors discover the better reasoning themselves, and so some of my comments may appear to be stupid. I am trying to get you to think about the arguments in more critical and rational ways. I remain open-minded about what is actually the case. DDStretch (talk) 09:13, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- Good, I asked for an elaboration to explain the argument you gave, and you have responded by giving one.
- The sources do not use all the modifiers that DDStretch is using to try to imply that there might be synthesis (tend to, almost all, mostly). If we go with the "nationalist" line, instead of the simple "many" and "often" then we have to explain to readers who these "nationalists" are. They are "the great majority". Text would have to be like "The term 'British Isles' is offensive to Irish nationalists, which make up the great majority of the Irish population. " No synthesis, no syllogisms. There may be lots of people who DONTLIKEIT, but this would not be synthesis. Still a lot easier to stick with the simpler text and not to get political. 79.155.154.185 (talk) 08:46, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
(reduce indent) Oh for heaven's sake DDStretch, my point was and is still clear. The sources clearly say that it is a term which offensive to many Irish. Apart from the sources which mention nationalists there are several others which say things like "often offensive to Irish sensibilities", and so on, and others which don't mention nationalists but do say "many". Others describe the term as almost unsayable in Ireland. If people want to bring nationalists into it then we must also clarify for the passing reader who this means. According to survey it means the great majority of Irish people. If we are to apply reasoning to all these references - all together - then the conclusion is clear. If we avoid making the whole thing political then it's easiest to leave "nationalist" out of it and simply adopt the rational conclusion from the references, that the term is offensive to many Irish. My proposal is still to leave the phrase as "objectionable or even offensive" as a softener to try to win agreement from those who deny the references. 79.155.154.185 (talk) 10:25, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- No need to appear impatient: remember, some things which are obvious to some will not appear to be obviosu to others, and there are many different reasons how this can arise. If the sources say that it is a term which is offensive to many Irish, then all right: the debate can then go into whether those sources are reliable and accurate or not. I haven't read them, and don't intend to, as that is your (the bulk of editors concerned with the actual content on here) main job, and I'm only commenting and intend to comment on the quality of argument here. I'm doing this to try to avoid being unduly partisan here. Remember it is up to you to justify the conclusions you want to draw against reasonable alternative explanations that are offered, and it is not the job for others to prove you wrong. It is an issue of burden of proof and the nature of alternative explanations in this kind of debate: The burden of proof is on those advancing a case to show that reasonable alternative explanations are not valid, whereas the obligation on those offering up alternative explanations is only to show that they could apply. Finaqlly, a minor point, but it is best dealt with, as being accurate is a key to avoiding drama here. You wrote: "If people want to bring nationalists into it then we must also clarify for the passing reader who this means. According to survey it means the great majority of Irish people." Does it? I am sure if your position is accurate, it will only be strenthened and rendered immune from undermining alternative explanations if you can provide some evidence for this (it should be fairly easy, I think.) DDStretch (talk) 11:13, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- As an extra comment, I just glanced at [The talk sub-page giving references] It is not as well-organised as it could be to take the discussion forward. Thus, I think some thought may be given to re-arranging the references in an easier to see form that would show which references say what about the term "British Isles", and which ones say who thinks what about the term "British Isles". It can be done by adding a table similar to the solution done on Countries of the United Kingdom about the terms that should be used to describe England, Northern Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. I would have thought that anyone interested in sticking more closely to what the references state might see that as a good move. DDStretch (talk) 11:21, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
(outdent reply to 79.155.154.185) Good! Then you could make a start on constructing an informative table on [the talk sub-page giving references]. I really think doing so would be informative and a useful way of encouraging people to become more focussed on the reliable sources and the deployment of them. Try to design a table so that the information it shows supplies information about both "sides" in this dispute, and people will then be able to more accurately see just what the literature says. DDStretch (talk) 11:49, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- Part of the problem in constructing an informative table is (i) I have no idea how to make tables in a Wiki and (ii) tables often imply that the text gets very summarized. As for "both sides", I have not found a second side. I've looked and I've repeatedly asked the editors arguing against inclusion of the material about the offensiveness of the term for evidence of another "side" and none has ever been produced. 79.155.154.185 (talk) 11:56, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, two problems, and they can be tackled in turn. For the first one, you can take a look at Help:Table. Additionally, looking at tables as used in other articles (I've given some pointers to similar tables, above), can yield clues about creating tables in wikipedia. For the second point, if you personally don't know of any other side, and don't know where to find any, then just concentrate on adding the information you do know about. I hope that all who dispute the content would then begin to make points and supply information that could be added to a "counter" section of the table in some way. In terms of what to include, then there are already pointers in what has already been said: (a) "Most Irish are nationalists" (could include evidence in favour of this, and a column for evidence against it. This evidence could be in the form of criticisms about the quality of any sources, for example) (b) Nationalists find the term "British Isles" offensive" (without the qualification of "most"), (c) the same as (b), but with the addition of "most".
Remember that a good policy to have in the back of your mind comes from a major proponent of Critical Rationalism, the philosopher Karl Popper. He wrote (I can find the exact quote if anyone is interested enough) "I may be wrong, and you may be right, and by an effort we can get closer to the truth", though we need to modify the idea of "truth" to fit in more with wikipedia's criteria. DDStretch (talk) 12:24, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, two problems, and they can be tackled in turn. For the first one, you can take a look at Help:Table. Additionally, looking at tables as used in other articles (I've given some pointers to similar tables, above), can yield clues about creating tables in wikipedia. For the second point, if you personally don't know of any other side, and don't know where to find any, then just concentrate on adding the information you do know about. I hope that all who dispute the content would then begin to make points and supply information that could be added to a "counter" section of the table in some way. In terms of what to include, then there are already pointers in what has already been said: (a) "Most Irish are nationalists" (could include evidence in favour of this, and a column for evidence against it. This evidence could be in the form of criticisms about the quality of any sources, for example) (b) Nationalists find the term "British Isles" offensive" (without the qualification of "most"), (c) the same as (b), but with the addition of "most".
(reduce indent again) And on Wikipedia truth is verifiability, i.e. reputable sources. 79.155.154.185 (talk) 12:48, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, you are right: the accurate description of verified, reliable sources, that can be cited can be used in place of "truth" in the above quote, and that will make the quote fit much more with Wikipedia's criteria. DDStretch (talk) 13:34, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Can I just remind everyone who is contributing here to review and consider their comments in the light of WP:TALK? Some comments that have been made in the past in this section would have been clearly in contravention of WP:TALK and a number of policies, and warnings and blocks might have then ensued. The most recent comments here are just about all right, but we could do with them being made even less directed at people and more directed at the arguments the people have advanced. DDStretch (talk) 16:03, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, you are correct; especially of note is the the synthesis bit on the No Original Research page. Coupled with all of these, I think the issue of using good quality critical thinking and reasoning to assemble the evidence is also important. If people paid more attention to these aspects, then I imagine their work would be such that there would be less time available to spend on inappropriate personalised arguments and comments. DDStretch (talk) 08:35, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- There is no synthesis involved in the way the sources are currently used. Nor are they "weasel" references. 79.155.154.185 (talk) 08:41, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, you are correct; especially of note is the the synthesis bit on the No Original Research page. Coupled with all of these, I think the issue of using good quality critical thinking and reasoning to assemble the evidence is also important. If people paid more attention to these aspects, then I imagine their work would be such that there would be less time available to spend on inappropriate personalised arguments and comments. DDStretch (talk) 08:35, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
(reduce) So, does anyone have any referenced objection to the phrase "objectionable or even offensive" or can we go with it? 79.155.154.185 (talk) 12:11, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- The New British History Page 86, point 7. It states "There is and never has been a geopolitical term covering Britain and Ireland; and although from the Roman period and throughout the Renaissance period, European scholars and mapmakers had a clear notion of the Insulae Britannicae and Britons subsequently had no difficulty with the geographical term 'The British Isles', that term has been and is resisted and resented by the majority population of the island of Ireland...." --HighKing (talk) 14:57, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Appropriate. Is that John Morrill? I can't see the preview page.—eric 18:23, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, that's him. I take it he must have done a survey to arrive at his conclusion about the "majority population". Then again, maybe he didn't. MidnightBlue (Talk) 20:45, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Probably part of the same survey where a "tiny and vocal minority" classed as objectors were surveyed. Oh wait - there isn't any reputable source for that... --HighKing (talk) 13:55, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe he did and maybe he didn't. It doesn't matter much. It's a verifiable reputable source. 79.155.154.185 (talk) 10:04, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Probably part of the same survey where a "tiny and vocal minority" classed as objectors were surveyed. Oh wait - there isn't any reputable source for that... --HighKing (talk) 13:55, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Appropriate. Is that John Morrill? I can't see the preview page.—eric 18:23, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe revisit the comment from Bazza above, tho i think you're in good shape as far as WP:V is concerned.—eric 18:23, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- So we should just go with "offensive"? 79.155.154.185 (talk) 08:11, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- No, that creates a false dichotomy, implying that either people are ok with the term or find it offensive, with no middle ground. I'm sure there are many who have a mild (or perhaps stronger) dislike of the term but are far from offended by it. Waggers (talk) 13:40, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- So we should just go with "offensive"? 79.155.154.185 (talk) 08:11, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
@ HighKing & GoodDay. The "offensive" quotes don't only relate to Irish nationalists. Please read the references on /References. @All. Also, for the sake of clarity we'd have to point out that the great majority of the Irish population consider themselves nationalists. Should we return to my original "objectionable or even offensive"? 79.155.154.185 (talk) 16:45, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Looking at the references:
- The British Isles does include the island of Ireland although the adjective British used in this context is often found offensive by Irish Nationalists
- Geographical terms also cause problems and we know that some will find certain of our terms offensive. Many Irish object to the term the 'British Isles.
- In an attempt to coin a term that avoided the 'British Isles' - a term often offensive to Irish sensibilities - Pocock suggested a neutral geographical term...
- the British Isles (a term which is itself offensive to Irish Nationalists)
- So that's 3 out of 4 quotes that link "offensive" with Irish Nationalists, while one quote states that many Irish object to the term. Another quote I provided above states that
- The British Isles, that term has been and is resisted and resented by the majority population of the island of Ireland
- I don't see any quote that says that the vast majority of Irish people are Nationalists. Is there a reference for that? Perhaps we should drop "offensive" and use "is resisted and resented" instead as it is supported and generally fits (or is there a particular desire for using the work "offensive"?). --HighKing (talk) 17:06, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- I previously referred to a newspaper article which had results of a survey in Ireland. It's mentioned again above. "the great majority" of people in Ireland were nationalists. 79.155.154.185 (talk) 22:25, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks - I found it. The newspaper article is referring to a survey that states that almost 80 per cent of Irish people would like to see a united Ireland. Almost a quarter of voters - 22 per cent - believe that "delivering a united Ireland should be the government’s first priority". More than half of voters, 55 per cent, say they would like to see a united Ireland, but "other things should have priority". Ten per cent of voters say no efforts should be made to bring about a united Ireland, whereas 13 per cent say they have no interest one way or the other. The survey was carried out among more than 1,000 voters and broadly reflects the views of the Irish electorate. While the survey sample is small, it is nevertheless legitimate. --HighKing (talk) 00:00, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- I previously referred to a newspaper article which had results of a survey in Ireland. It's mentioned again above. "the great majority" of people in Ireland were nationalists. 79.155.154.185 (talk) 22:25, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
That would come under WP:OR. If one source states that the majority of nationalists believe such and such a thing, and another source states that the majority of people in Ireland are nationalists, it is illegitimate to combine the two. ðarkuncoll 23:09, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- I agree. The sentence might be better stated as "The term 'British Isles' is offensive to Irish nationalists, and a survey in 2006 showed that almost 80% of the Irish electorate favoured a united Ireland". A better wordsmith can probably do a better job... --HighKing (talk) 00:00, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- (soapboxing, inflammatory comment removed, with respect to WP:NOTSOAPBOX and WP:TALK) DDStretch (talk) 06:19, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- "The great majority of Irish people are nationalists to a greater or lesser degree". If we bring nationalists into the discussion we have to ensure that it's clear who they are. No evasion because people don't like the facts. 79.155.154.185 (talk) 06:08, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
(outdent)Stepping back from the word "offensive" for a minute, I believe that many editors are trying to insert the idea into the article that the term "British Isles" is disliked/objected to/resented/resisted/deemed offensive/etc by some/all/most/proportion of/etc Irish people. There are sufficient references for a statement like this to be included. What other suggestions are currently being proposed? Perhaps a better wordsmith can improve on existing proposals, or even create a new one? --HighKing (talk) 14:06, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
- The point only needs mentioning once, and not in the lead paragraph. It should not be laboured, as it is at the moment. As I said previously, several times, there's a whole article about the "controversy"; an unencyclopedic article, I would contend, but at least there is one. MidnightBlue (Talk) 13:45, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- The point needs highlighting actually. That the inhbitants of one of the two States in the islands find the Wiki-name offensive or objectionable is highly significant. We should merge the "controversy" article into the main article. Sarah777 (talk) 17:19, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- No it doesn't. It just needs mentioning, once. As for merging, I'm happy with it as a separate, albeit unencyclopedic article. It keeps the nastiness out of the way by doing that. MidnightBlue (Talk) 17:42, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- Although I'm new to comment on these subjects, I'm very surprised at the speed by which my previous comments were reverted (by a British (involved?) admin). It wouldn't happen on any other topic. My comments were not a personal attack, but a reaction to the comment above that deems the references to the offensive nature of the term "British Isles" as nastiness. To normal sane people, these references are not nastiness, but factual references that were gathered as a result of the stonewalling by British editors on this article over the fact that the term "British Isles" is offensive to everyone outside the UK. In fact, it was these same British editors that requested evidence as to the objectionable nature of the term. Now that the references have been gathered together, they are referred to as nastiness? In a fair and reasonable application of policy, MBM's comments should have been reverted as an attempt to discredit the references and an attempt to incite angry comments. But of course, now that my eyes are being opened, it's easier to see why a British editor can make comments such as these with impunity. 207.181.210.6 (talk) 03:25, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
- No it doesn't. It just needs mentioning, once. As for merging, I'm happy with it as a separate, albeit unencyclopedic article. It keeps the nastiness out of the way by doing that. MidnightBlue (Talk) 17:42, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- The point needs highlighting actually. That the inhbitants of one of the two States in the islands find the Wiki-name offensive or objectionable is highly significant. We should merge the "controversy" article into the main article. Sarah777 (talk) 17:19, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- It was me, and I just happened to read your previous comments shortly after you posted them. People must abide by WP:TALK. I suggest that you re-assess what you wrote. A key quote from the deleted message was "Disruptive editors like you should be blocked from articles where the evidence shows that you are not interested in creating a quality article, but treat WP as propaganda" was a direct attack upon MidnightBlueMan. Please abide by WP:TALK. You can make your comments withoyt resorting to this, and it is the force of arguments about the content aimed at improving the article, rather than attacks on editirs that will win the day here if wikipedia is working well. If you feel you have reached deadlock, then the matter can be resolved using a variety of means which do not involve attacking other editors which is clearly what you did on this talk page. DDStretch (talk) 08:05, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Who uses this term?
Has anybody ever heard a real person use this term? The claim and prejudice implicit to it might have a home at a fringe meeting of the British Conservative Party (in an effort to stop the EUisation of modern Britain and assert British difference, of course), but telling real Irish people that they live in an entity called the British Isles (and are therefore British) is something from the dark ages of British colonial policy in Ireland. I suspect that even the vast majority of educated, rational-thinking people in Britain would avoid using it for this reason. I certainly don't hear the term on British weather forecasts. There seems to be a very strong correlation between the people who use this term and affinity with nationalistic, anti-EU, political views. That should, at the very least, be highlighted. 213.202.150.192 (talk) 11:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
- There is a workgroup set up to explore aspects of usage of this term at WP:BITASK. It is more appropriate to continue the discussion there. --HighKing (talk) 11:50, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
- I confess, I have heard a real person use this term. As for a fictional person using the term? no I haven't. GoodDay (talk) 16:54, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
- Father GoodDay, I must confess to you that it was me you heard use this term. Yes, ME! Now, what's my penance to be?--jeanne (talk) 17:22, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
- How is that a penance when I do laugh at your humour already? No, the proper penance would be that I must listen to the orations of a certain editor (which we both know) for hours on end and then I must agree with him.--jeanne (talk) 17:33, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
- I wonder if Dunlavin would accept my deal: I listen to his speeches and he gets to read the article I created on Anglo-Norman medieval heiresses. Think he'll accept? Eh?--jeanne (talk) 19:25, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
- 213.202.150.192, you say that you don't hear the term on British weather forecasts. I can only assume from that remark that you listen to the forecasts on the radio. What you should do is watch the BBC forecasts. You'll then come across Philip Avery, one of the main forcasters, who includes a liberal helping of the term in every one of his forecasts, to such an extent that even I wonder if he's going out of his way to do it. As for use of the term implying ownership of all the islands by Britain; it implies no such thing. MidnightBlue (Talk) 19:52, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Request for a change to the info box
In the info box on the right it lists "countries" of the British Isles. As the term country is used to describe England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland on other wiki pages and (from what ive seen) never used to describe the isle of man etc this needs to change.
As it mentions Sovereign states / dependencies in the introduction, it would seem reason for the list title to be Sovereign states and Crown Dependencies. Would anyone object to such a change? BritishWatcher (talk) 15:59, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- I certainly don't object - my only reservation is that it's quite a long phrase compared to the one-word "Countries", but I can't think of a more succinct alternative that's still accurate, so I say go for it. waggers (talk) 21:16, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- Not to rain on the parade here but since when did "Northern Ireland" become a "country"? 86.42.120.25 (talk) 00:51, 26 November 2008 (UTC)