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::::: Look at all the warnings on your own talk page. Assuming in good faith that they were not directed at you, but others editing from the same IP address, it is still impossible to know what your own experience with Wikipedia is. If you get an account today, you'll have the four days of editing history before this discussion closes, on October 7th. [[User:BD2412|<font style="background:gold">'''''bd2412'''''</font>]] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 18:43, 1 October 2013 (UTC) |
::::: Look at all the warnings on your own talk page. Assuming in good faith that they were not directed at you, but others editing from the same IP address, it is still impossible to know what your own experience with Wikipedia is. If you get an account today, you'll have the four days of editing history before this discussion closes, on October 7th. [[User:BD2412|<font style="background:gold">'''''bd2412'''''</font>]] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 18:43, 1 October 2013 (UTC) |
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::::: Hey how about we leave this page as Bradley Manning so people know who we are talking about cause nobody knows who chelsea manning is because they do no exist. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/71.224.123.145|71.224.123.145]] ([[User talk:71.224.123.145|talk]]) 00:43, 5 October 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
::::: Hey how about we leave this page as Bradley Manning so people know who we are talking about cause nobody knows who chelsea manning is because they do no exist. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/71.224.123.145|71.224.123.145]] ([[User talk:71.224.123.145|talk]]) 00:43, 5 October 2013 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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====!vote request==== |
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{{edit semiprotected}}I request that the following (my !vote) is added to the support section of the [[Talk:Bradley Manning/October 2013 move request|move request]].<br>"'''Support''': Either Chelsea Manning is the common name post-announcement or there is no clear common name. In the latter case common courtesy and the spirit of several rules (e.g. [[WP:BLP]], [[MOS:IDENTITY]]) indicatee that the article title ought to be "Chelsea Manning". [[Special:Contributions/88.88.162.176|88.88.162.176]] ([[User talk:88.88.162.176|talk]]) 18:34, 5 October 2013 (UTC)"<br>As the semi-protection was described as a "preemptive measure" a reasonable IP !vote should be allowed once it is ascertained that the intended forestallment does not apply to the content of that !vote. A reasonable IP !vote should not be discounted. [[Special:Contributions/88.88.162.176|88.88.162.176]] ([[User talk:88.88.162.176|talk]]) 18:34, 5 October 2013 (UTC) |
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== Childhood photo == |
== Childhood photo == |
Revision as of 18:34, 5 October 2013
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First requested move
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request is the initial move of the article to "Chelsea Manning" is reverted, returning the article to the original title, "Bradley Manning.
The panel of administrators convened to review and close this discussion has unanimously reached the following determinations regarding this requested move:
- The title of the page prior to the events in dispute was "Bradley Manning"; this was a long-term, stable title, and the brief and limited discussion prior to the initial page move to "Chelsea Manning" does not constitute the formation of community consensus to move the page. Therefore, the default title of the page absent a consensus to move the page is "Bradley Manning".
- The discussion following the move request provided a clear absence of consensus for the page to be moved from "Bradley Manning" to "Chelsea Manning".
- WP:BLP is applicable to article titles and the desire to avoid harming the subject presents a reasonable basis for supporting "Chelsea Manning" as the title; however, BLP does not require having "Chelsea Manning" as the title. It is not a BLP violation to maintain the title at "Bradley Manning" so long as the prior use of this name by the subject is public knowledge and can be found in reliable sources. Furthermore, the application of BLP to avoid harming the subject is mitigated by the subject's own acknowledgment that "Bradley Manning" will continue to be used in various fora, and by the fact that the name, "Bradley Manning", will inevitably appear prominently in the article lede. Therefore, BLP is not a basis to move the article in the clear absence of a consensus in favor of titling the article, "Chelsea Manning".
- MOS:IDENTITY is not expressly applicable to article titles, and is therefore not a basis to move the article in the clear absence of a consensus in favor of titling the article, "Chelsea Manning".. The panel acknowledges that MOS:IDENTITY is applicable to pronouns as used in the article, and that the reversion of this title in no way implies that the subject should be addressed in the article by masculine pronouns. Although some may perceive this as leading to incongruity between the subject's name and the pronouns used throughout the article, such incongruity appears in numerous articles about subjects whose common name appears to differ from their gender.
- WP:COMMONNAME remains the basic principle by which article titles are chosen. This policy provides several factors which are weighed in the determination of a proper article title. In the requested move discussion, a number of editors noted that "Bradley Manning" was the name under which the subject became notable and performed the actions which led to her notability; and that readers interested in these actions would be likely to search for this subject under the name, "Bradley Manning". Competing examples were provided of some reliable sources changing their usage, while some retained their previous usage. The change that did occur was not sufficient to persuade the majority of editors, including some who indicated that their minds could be changed by sufficient evidence of changed usage. Although WP:COMMONAME provides that "more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change", it does not provide that no weight should be given to reliable sources published before the name change. The total mass of sources is weighted towards "Bradley Manning", and it is too soon to determine whether usage following the subject's announced name change represent an enduring trend, or a blip occasioned by reports in the news surrounding the name change itself.
- A comparatively small number of editors premised their opinions solely on Manning's legal or biological state. These arguments are not based on anything in Wikipedia's policies, and are contrary to numerous precedents. Such arguments were expressly discounted in this determination.
- A number of editors who supported reverting the title back to "Bradley Manning" also expressed the opinion that the common name of the subject is likely to change over a relatively short time span, this close is without prejudice to a new proposal to move the page to "Chelsea Manning" being initiated no less than thirty days* from the date of this determination, at which point those advocating the move of this page will be able to present all evidence that may arise during that time demonstrating a change in the common name of this subject as used by reliable sources. In the interim, editors may propose moving the page to a compromise title such as "Private Manning" or "Bradley (Chelsea) Manning".
* The sole point as to which the closing administrators were not unanimous was the length of time that should be required to pass before a new move request to "Chelsea Manning" is proposed; one member of the panel would have required ninety days.
This was by no means an easy process, and the closing administrators recognize that any conclusion to this discussion would engender further controversy; however, we are in agreement that this result is the only proper interpretation of the discussion conducted with respect to this dispute. bd2412 T 03:50, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
Note: After carefully considering the proposal made on my talk page, I have moved this discussion to: Talk:Chelsea Manning/August 2013 move request.
This move serves two purposes. First, it reduces the massive size of this talk page (the move discussion is well over 500,000 bytes). Second, it makes it very clear that the discussion has concluded, and further comments are to be made elsewhere. Cheers! bd2412 T 16:03, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Note the panel is (BD2412 (talk · contribs), BOZ (talk · contribs), Kww (talk · contribs)) NE Ent 13:48, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
Adding a future date so this doesn't get auto-archived. 23:59, 30 September 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sportfan5000 (talk • contribs)
Undue emphasis on gender identity
Another article has been merged into this article, and the result in my opinion is an undue weight to the gender identity issue. For instance the "Reactions to coverage" (of the gender change) section is just as large as the "Reactions to the disclosure section". The latter is obviously what Manning is primarily notable for. The article already before this had an undue weight on personal issues. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 20:27, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
- Feel free to trim the section down then, I just merged the article per the merge discussion outcome that closed recently. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:30, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
- I cut the material that seemed to be merely repetition of text from the "Military" section's narrative earlier, and I reworded some of the New York Times response to be slightly slimmer.
However, I would just assume cut the NYT, USA Today, and NPR response subsections entirely, as their effect seems to be summarized sufficiently in the "Initial Media Coverage" subsection immediately prior. Thoughts?Startswithj (talk) 07:40, 19 September 2013 (UTC)- On second thought, I think this an appropriate place to stop cutting. The overall size of this "Gender Identity" section looks more in balance with the other sections of the article. Startswithj (talk) 07:59, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
- If the section is too large, the solution is not to cut out notable and relevant material, but to use WP:SUMMARY and move the detailed coverage to a separate sub-article. Just saying... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:04, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
- When the "notable and relevant" material is WP:UNDUE weight, duplicates existing material, or is over-expansive and non concise, it should be trimmed and rewritten, now that is it no longer part of a split article struggling to seem important enough to deserve that split. The community has voted. In the end the whole gender identity publicity stunt will probably be forgotten and will fade to black. However, the actions of Manning wrt leaks will be remembered for a long time to come. - Floydian τ ¢ 23:49, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
- Actually, the title of this talk section "Undue emphasis on gender identity" wasn't the main reason for my trimming. It was rather that the trimmed parts were too much of a digression from the topic of the article because they were too much about the media coverage of the gender identity, rather than Manning's gender identity itself. --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:09, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
- When the "notable and relevant" material is WP:UNDUE weight, duplicates existing material, or is over-expansive and non concise, it should be trimmed and rewritten, now that is it no longer part of a split article struggling to seem important enough to deserve that split. The community has voted. In the end the whole gender identity publicity stunt will probably be forgotten and will fade to black. However, the actions of Manning wrt leaks will be remembered for a long time to come. - Floydian τ ¢ 23:49, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
- If the section is too large, the solution is not to cut out notable and relevant material, but to use WP:SUMMARY and move the detailed coverage to a separate sub-article. Just saying... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:04, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
- On second thought, I think this an appropriate place to stop cutting. The overall size of this "Gender Identity" section looks more in balance with the other sections of the article. Startswithj (talk) 07:59, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
I made a major trim in the section. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:18, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
- Your summary looks good, thank you. Startswithj (talk) 15:39, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
- OK, but can somebody explain: if a man is father, can he also be mother? How can we write: Eva (born Adam)? Can Manning be pregnant? --Ceroi (talk) 02:12, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
- Please look at the information at the top of the page. This isn't a place for a general discussion about gender. This is a place for discussion about improvements to the article. Totorotroll (talk) 07:45, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
- OK, but can somebody explain: if a man is father, can he also be mother? How can we write: Eva (born Adam)? Can Manning be pregnant? --Ceroi (talk) 02:12, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
Organization of article regarding gender
Per WP:IAR I would suggest rewriting the first sentence as,
- Bradley Edward Manning (also known as Chelsea Elizabeth Manning[1]) is a United States Army soldier who was convicted in July 2013 of violations of the Espionage Act and other offenses, after releasing the largest set of restricted documents ever leaked to the public.
and changing personal pronouns to masculine as described below in the parenthetical explanation. Also, I would suggest moving the following sentence that is presently in the first paragraph to the end of the lead.
- "In a statement the day after sentencing, Manning said she had felt female since childhood, asked to be known as Chelsea, and expressed a desire to undergo hormone replacement therapy.[1]
Furthermore, I would suggest adding the following parenthetical explanation after the above sentence.
- (In this article, when referring to events prior to Manning's announcement, masculine personal pronouns will be used, whereas for events occurring after Manning's announcement, feminine pronouns will be used. When events before and after the announcement are discussed together, or when the reliable sources that support the information use masculine pronouns, masculine pronouns will be used. )
Any suggestions for improving this parenthetical statement are welcomed.
The guideline that would prevent the above edits is MOS:IDENTITY, more specifically the sentence of that guideline that says, "This applies in references to any phase of that person's life." This sentence is the subject of an RfC titled RfC on pronouns throughout life. From looking at the responses to that RfC, there is considerable opposition to the sentence, possibly by a majority of the respondents, although it may not be sufficient to delete the sentence. In any case the support of the sentence does not appear to be any greater than the opposition to the sentence, and this gives additional justification for using WP:IAR in this case. For reference, here is WP:IAR.
Thanks for considering this. --Bob K31416 (talk) 12:22, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
- You are proposing that we replace true claims with false ones. That is a particularly bad reason to ignore the rules designed to prevent false claims from being included. It might be the first day of spring, but I predict a heavy snow coming. 99.192.48.138 (talk) 13:03, 22 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
- How about no. (For details, see the previous several megabytes of this page.) - David Gerard (talk) 13:57, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
- No. See also your conversation at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#Gender_self-identification Startswithj (talk) 14:36, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
- I Support this change and think it really is no big deal, you guys are arguing about swapping names, seeing the article is titled as Bradley, the name Bradley should come first. I want us to start improving the article and have editors leave their emotions out. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:43, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
- No, please see the extensive archives for the reasons why your proposal is unacceptable. Invoking IAR at this stage of the discussion (after extended debate has arrived at this compromise) is not kosher. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:03, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
- Proposals to ignore all rules are likely to be better received if you actually explain your reasons. – Smyth\talk 21:41, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
- When I read the parts of the article where feminine pronouns are used for Manning's life before the statement of Aug 22, 2013, it seems like they can easily be misinterpreted as meaning that Manning lived and was perceived as a girl or a woman during the first 25 years of Manning's life that came before the announcement. For example, the use of the feminine pronouns for the period during Manning's childhood can suggest to readers that Manning's parents perceived Manning as a girl.
- A problem I personally ran into as an editor was with this edit [1]. Because of the current pronoun situation, my edit resulted in, "According to a friend, at the age of 13 Manning said that she was gay." I think that this would be unclear to most readers because it seems like the case of a girl being attracted to other girls, which wasn't the case for Manning. I understand that a person who knew and accepted the definitions used by the LGBT community may know, but I think that would be a small minority of the Wikipedia readership. I considered writing it without the personal pronoun but so far I haven't found such a version that works very well.
- For reference, here's what was in the reliable source.[2]
Do you remember when Brad told you that he was gay?
Yep.
Can you tell me about that?
Me and [another friend] Zack were spending the night. I went down to get a Mountain Dew or something because we were about to go to sleep. I was in my bed, and Bradley was on the couch. Zack was on a mattress on the floor. And [I] came back, and he told me he was gay. And I said, "OK, well, you know, it's whatever floats your boat, man." And that was pretty much it. ...
How old were you guys then?
I guess I would have been 14. He would have been 13.
- Regarding the use of WP:IAR in general, I think I made a new and valid point that it is more applicable to parts of policies and guidelines where consensus is in question, such as the case illustrated by the RfC that I mentioned. --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:58, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- Unless someone is reading that sentence out of context of the article, it won't be confusing at all. The article explains that Manning is transgender and when she revealed that fact, so what "said that she was gay" to a person who did not know she is transgender means is clear. But if you still insist that this is a problem, the solution is to write better, not to report false information about Manning's gender. How about "According to a friend, at the age of 13 Manning reported being gay." or how about "According to a friend, at the age of 13 Manning claimed to be gay." The latter might be better because as a transgender teen, her attraction to boys would make her actually heterosexual, thus the claim to be gay was not correct. I think the text as is is clear. I don't see how anyone who knows what "transgender" means and knows about when Manning transitioned (as the article explains) could be confused by the text as is. But if you disagree propose an improvement, not a lie. Saying "he" is a lie. 99.192.80.113 (talk) 01:41, 23 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
- Short answer: no; please back away from the horse. For the long answer, see the repeated, repeated, detailed discussions available in the archives. -sche (talk) 22:04, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
- The discussion is not over though it has just moved on to other places, so no the argument has not been closed and done with. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:24, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
- Support - makes sense to me. The article is currently confusing as hell. I think it's a good idea to have the pronouns/names track chronologically with the public persona of Manning at the time of the sources detailing the timeline. Kelly hi! 04:50, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- Support - not only does it make sense, but it's perfectly respectful. The National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association (NLGJA) recommends not using one name to the exclusion of the other in an article, but rather to use the old name when writing about events prior to when the person began living publicly as the opposite gender.[3]Anythingyouwant (talk) 05:06, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- It has been really bugging me that people are citing NLGJA as though they have any special right to an opinion on trans pronouns. Lesbian and gay - no trans in there. GLAAD (again, G and L - no T) say precisely the opposite. 7daysahead (talk) 12:14, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- It seems they have rebranded themselves - they are now "The Association of LGBT journalists"--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:17, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- Here's the link for the NLGJA, which is now "The Association of LGBT journalists".[4] --Bob K31416 (talk) 14:27, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- Here's a better link: "Because of Manning’s name recognition, we suggest that she be referenced as “US Army Private Chelsea Manning, who formerly went by the name Bradley.” NLGJA Encourages Journalists to be Fair and Accurate About Manning’s Plans to Live as a Woman __Elaqueate (talk) 14:55, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- (Also, to avoid any chance of introduced confusion, "The Association of LGBT journalists" is only a descriptive slogan and obviously not their actual name.) __Elaqueate (talk) 15:07, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- I think you're right that "The Association of LGBT Journalists" is their description of their association NLGJA, rather than the name. See also http://www.nlgja.org/about regarding their mission and history.
- For reference, I think that this is the excerpt from the RS that was mentioned in the message that began this thread.[5]
- (Also, to avoid any chance of introduced confusion, "The Association of LGBT journalists" is only a descriptive slogan and obviously not their actual name.) __Elaqueate (talk) 15:07, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- Here's a better link: "Because of Manning’s name recognition, we suggest that she be referenced as “US Army Private Chelsea Manning, who formerly went by the name Bradley.” NLGJA Encourages Journalists to be Fair and Accurate About Manning’s Plans to Live as a Woman __Elaqueate (talk) 14:55, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- Here's the link for the NLGJA, which is now "The Association of LGBT journalists".[4] --Bob K31416 (talk) 14:27, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- It seems they have rebranded themselves - they are now "The Association of LGBT journalists"--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:17, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- It has been really bugging me that people are citing NLGJA as though they have any special right to an opinion on trans pronouns. Lesbian and gay - no trans in there. GLAAD (again, G and L - no T) say precisely the opposite. 7daysahead (talk) 12:14, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
And when I asked the NLGJA by e-mail to clarify its policy on reporting about Manning’s past, a spokesperson for the group said it would recommend “he” for historical reference too: “When writing about events prior to when the person began living publicly as the opposite gender, NLGJA recommends using the name and gender the individual used publicly at that time. For example: Chelsea Manning, formerly known as Bradley, came out as transgender last week. In a statement, Manning said she had felt this way since childhood. Manning grew up in Oklahoma. In middle school, he was very outspoken in class about government issues and religious beliefs, friends said.”
- --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:29, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- Relying on that TIME article means ignoring all other sources in that article, and ignoring their stated policies, and ignoring the author's own summation that "she" has a strong argument for anything past early childhood. And, I suppose an argument can be made for an interpretation that excludes inconvenient evidence. But it clearly doesn't make sense to point to NLGJA to support a change to make "Bradley Manning" as the primary reference, when they state the opposite. I'm not confused here, am I? __Elaqueate (talk) 15:48, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:29, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- No. Since gender doesn't appear to change, if Manning was female gendered - but not so identified - all her life, it makes sense to use the female pronoun for all her life. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 09:35, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose: as per longstanding style in WP articles regarding transgender people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 7daysahead (talk • contribs) 12:14, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose. The NLGJA's recommendations are not to "use the old name when writing about events prior to when the person began living publicly as the opposite gender" as suggested by User:Anythingyouwant above. Their recommendations (http://www.nlgja.org/article/nlgja-encourages-journalists-fair-accurate) are to respect the subject's self-identity ("refer to her by her new name and the feminine pronoun … use the name and pronouns that someone prefers"), and in the case of a person who become famous before coming out, to introduce her as she self-identifies, with a brief addendum giving her previous name ("we suggest that she be referenced as 'US Army Private Chelsea Manning, who formerly went by the name Bradley.'”).
- GLAAD said it best (http://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender) when writing: "Avoid pronoun confusion when examining the stories and backgrounds of transgender people prior to their transition. It is usually best to report on transgender people's stories from the present day instead of narrating them from some point or multiple points in the past, thus avoiding confusion and potentially disrespectful use of incorrect pronouns."
- Respect for the subject's self-identity is also the course recommended by the American Medical Association, the American Psychological Association, the Associated Press, the Transgender Law Center, and the Human Rights Campaign.
- Again, User:Bob K31416 has already started this same conversation at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#Gender_self-identification
- And I strongly agree with the call above to stop beating dead horses.
- Startswithj (talk) 15:35, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- Here is the quote that I linked to previously, from Time Magazine:[6]
“ | And when I asked the NLGJA by e-mail to clarify its policy on reporting about Manning’s past, a spokesperson for the group said it would recommend “he” for historical reference too: “When writing about events prior to when the person began living publicly as the opposite gender, NLGJA recommends using the name and gender the individual used publicly at that time. For example: Chelsea Manning, formerly known as Bradley, came out as transgender last week. In a statement, Manning said she had felt this way since childhood. Manning grew up in Oklahoma. In middle school, he was very outspoken in class about government issues and religious beliefs, friends said.” | ” |
- Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:49, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- I am still unclear on this line of thought. Let me know how this sounds to you. 1) You seem to respect the opinion of NLGJA. 2) You cite an example where they use "Chelsea Manning, formerly known as Bradley" 3) We also know they explicitly and specifically advise "US Army Private Chelsea Manning, who formerly went by the name Bradley.” [7] 4) This is to support a proposal to change the lead to "Bradley Edward Manning (also known as Chelsea Elizabeth Manning)"? Help? __Elaqueate (talk) 16:41, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- The proposal also includes a long parenthetical involving pronouns, which I assume you agree is supported by the NLGJA guidance. Regarding the first few words of our lead sentence, it's worth keeping in mind that we're writing about a whole life, not "last week".Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:07, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- I never thought they were the only source for guidance on pronouns or names. It might be great to see what trans specific organizations suggest, or medical organizations, or AP (heavily endorsed by NLGJA). I was just confused about when you thought the NLGJA were credible. Pronouns: yes; name: no way. But it looks like the lead is written in the present tense, about the current conditions of the subject. I still don't see why you wouldn't go with your expert, unless you thought they weren't? They still seem to be suggesting Chelsea Manning is the way to go there. Are they credible, in your view? __Elaqueate (talk) 17:29, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- If the lead is written about current conditions then it needs to be fixed. The notability of the subject is largely due to events several years ago.Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:41, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- A discussion on the "notability" of this person (who's been in the news internationally and prominently this month) doesn't seem to have anything to do with your assessment that the NLGJA should be considered a reliable expert. It might not be helpful to re-open and re-argue other positions that have been given here, I just thought it odd that you were promoting an organization of journalists that disagreed with your positions. __Elaqueate (talk) 18:06, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- I am not persuaded that they disagree.Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:20, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- A discussion on the "notability" of this person (who's been in the news internationally and prominently this month) doesn't seem to have anything to do with your assessment that the NLGJA should be considered a reliable expert. It might not be helpful to re-open and re-argue other positions that have been given here, I just thought it odd that you were promoting an organization of journalists that disagreed with your positions. __Elaqueate (talk) 18:06, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- If the lead is written about current conditions then it needs to be fixed. The notability of the subject is largely due to events several years ago.Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:41, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- I never thought they were the only source for guidance on pronouns or names. It might be great to see what trans specific organizations suggest, or medical organizations, or AP (heavily endorsed by NLGJA). I was just confused about when you thought the NLGJA were credible. Pronouns: yes; name: no way. But it looks like the lead is written in the present tense, about the current conditions of the subject. I still don't see why you wouldn't go with your expert, unless you thought they weren't? They still seem to be suggesting Chelsea Manning is the way to go there. Are they credible, in your view? __Elaqueate (talk) 17:29, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- The proposal also includes a long parenthetical involving pronouns, which I assume you agree is supported by the NLGJA guidance. Regarding the first few words of our lead sentence, it's worth keeping in mind that we're writing about a whole life, not "last week".Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:07, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- I am still unclear on this line of thought. Let me know how this sounds to you. 1) You seem to respect the opinion of NLGJA. 2) You cite an example where they use "Chelsea Manning, formerly known as Bradley" 3) We also know they explicitly and specifically advise "US Army Private Chelsea Manning, who formerly went by the name Bradley.” [7] 4) This is to support a proposal to change the lead to "Bradley Edward Manning (also known as Chelsea Elizabeth Manning)"? Help? __Elaqueate (talk) 16:41, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:49, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- Elaqueate, as the TIME article indicates, the guidelines by these media organizations tend to be ambiguous about how to refer to past events. It is entirely possible that the NLGJA just meant that they feel the current name and gender identity should be used for events now and into the future. That's the way I read it. Without any clarification from a spokesperson, it's possible they also meant for that to apply retroactively. However, with a clarification from a spokesperson, they apparently didn't mean that. -- tariqabjotu 17:00, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- This doesn't explain how it's possible that specific advice to use "Chelsea Manning, formerly known as Bradley" indicates expert support of the use of "Bradley Manning, also known as Chelsea" as the lead. Even within your extended interpretation here, the lead isn't a retroactive use. __Elaqueate (talk) 17:18, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you for making clear that unfortunate quote from an unnamed NLGJA representative (as reported by Time magazine), which appears to conflict with the NLGJA website's official recommendation. I still would suggest: 1) Take into account the official recommendations of the AMA, APA, AP, GLAAD, TLC, and HRC. 2) Follow Wikipedia's MOS:IDENTITY or discuss changing the MOS on the appropriate page. I still don't understand why the original poster brought their question back to this page after seeming not to gain traction on the MOS talk page. Startswithj (talk) 17:08, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- I had an idea of how to organize the article regarding gender that I hadn't expressed before. Also in my opening message, please see the last paragraph regarding the RfC and WP:IAR. --Bob K31416 (talk) 23:15, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you for making clear that unfortunate quote from an unnamed NLGJA representative (as reported by Time magazine), which appears to conflict with the NLGJA website's official recommendation. I still would suggest: 1) Take into account the official recommendations of the AMA, APA, AP, GLAAD, TLC, and HRC. 2) Follow Wikipedia's MOS:IDENTITY or discuss changing the MOS on the appropriate page. I still don't understand why the original poster brought their question back to this page after seeming not to gain traction on the MOS talk page. Startswithj (talk) 17:08, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- Elaqueate, I think the point of the Time article was that various organizations didn't give specific advice about which pronouns to use for Manning before the gender announcment. So the author emailed the NLGJA to get specific advice on that. The NLGJA email response was quoted above. Also note that the NLGJA is an association of journalists whereas the other LGBT advocacy groups are not. --Bob K31416 (talk) 22:55, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- I'm glad you like them. They say to use "US Army Private Chelsea Manning, who formerly went by the name Bradley.” [8] __Elaqueate (talk) 23:58, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- Did that include the 25 years before Manning's gender announcement too? The author of the Time article asked the NLGJA for clarification about how to refer to Manning in the past and they responded, “When writing about events prior to when the person began living publicly as the opposite gender, NLGJA recommends using the name and gender the individual used publicly at that time."[9] --Bob K31416 (talk) 00:19, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
- I'm glad you like them. They say to use "US Army Private Chelsea Manning, who formerly went by the name Bradley.” [8] __Elaqueate (talk) 23:58, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- This doesn't explain how it's possible that specific advice to use "Chelsea Manning, formerly known as Bradley" indicates expert support of the use of "Bradley Manning, also known as Chelsea" as the lead. Even within your extended interpretation here, the lead isn't a retroactive use. __Elaqueate (talk) 17:18, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- No. And let's get this article moved to her name already. Sportfan5000 (talk) 17:24, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose. She identifies as female, so let's stick with feminine pronouns. The move discussion back to Chelsea is a week away anyways. Dralwik|Have a Chat 19:03, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- Question Are we here to edit an encyclopedia? Do we want our readers to be confused as heck when reading the articles? Per WP:NPOV I think there is no harm in using both pronouns and WP:NPOV is Wikipedia's and wikimedia's core foundation - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:12, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose. is not respectful to subject of article. she has said what she wishes. is easy enough to do, so no reason to not. article read fine as is. Lakdfhia (talk) 23:25, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
- Support per WP:BLP, WP:V and WP:CRYSTAL - Bradley Manning's legally and biologically a male (and has been called by male pronouns up to the point where he announced he was going to change his gender. Therefore he's known as a male (just as Billy Tipton was actually a female, but male pronouns are used because that is what she was known for and as. He's a guy and that hasn't change yet (as the army won't allow him to have female hormones or surgery , so his gender change hasn't happened and in this day and age, it's not even notable. Bradley Manning is notable as Bradley Manning, the gender change isn't, so yeah, go ahead, refer to him as a male, because that's just what he is.
KoshVorlon. We are all Kosh ... 17:27, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
Readability
Would editors care to express their opinions about the readability of the article when feminine pronouns are used for the part of Manning's biography from birth in 1987 up to the gender announcement of Aug 22, 2013? Thanks. --Bob K31416 (talk) 21:53, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- Only a person who does not want to understand will have problems. It is as clear to read as any article is.99.192.70.42 (talk) 00:45, 24 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
- I tried reading it and found that I was able. Formerip (talk) 01:05, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
- I look at words, I read them. I don't know whether you've considered this yet, but you may possibly want to give a moment's thought to putting down the stick - David Gerard (talk) 08:28, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
- Re stick, one suggestion for you and anyone else that feels that way, simply stop posting messages and my suggestion about organization of the article regarding gender, which doesn't have consensus so far, will just fade away. I'll also consider whether I am behaving stickish.
- I started this subsection on readability because I was honestly interested in the opinions of editors here regarding this, regardless of what those opinions may have turned out to be. I also thought it would be useful info for others. --Bob K31416 (talk) 09:18, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
- P.S. If you are open to any feedback, your comment "I look at words, I read them." didn't seem to have any info about readability compared to the others. Feel free to elaborate if you like. --Bob K31416 (talk) 10:18, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
- One more thing, if you discourage editors from participating you may get what you wish and lose future contributions such as this edit[10], which editors on both sides of the gender issue seemed to like.[11] --Bob K31416 (talk) 10:40, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
- Perfectly readable. Context is given in the lede. 7daysahead (talk) 08:57, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
- I'll mention that my question was about editors' opinions regarding the readability for the general readership of Wikipedia. Sometimes it's hard to try to see things through their eyes, but it is important to do that for good writing. --Bob K31416 (talk) 11:15, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
- There are lots of different kinds of people in the general readership. Among them are: (1) Stupid people. These people might be confused, even given the clear explanations provided in the article. But then again, these people might read the Max Webster article and get to the end wondering if Max is a man or a woman. We can't and shouldn't edit to the level of the dumb reader. (2) Bigots. There are people out there who have hateful attitudes toward transgender people or who roll their eyes and think that transgender people are all crazy and that to acknowledge the legitimacy of being transgender is "pandering". Those people will have no trouble understanding the page as written, but it will piss them off, so they might pretend that it is confusing in order to try to get it changed to match their prejudices. Those people should be ignored as well. (3) People who are neither stupid nor bigots. Those people will have no difficulty understanding what the page says. This page is as readable as any other Wikipedia page, so the only barriers for the general readership to understanding the page are stupidity and bigotry. 99.192.81.74 (talk) 12:19, 24 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
- I've accepted that there are a diversity of editor personalities on Wikipedia so I'll simply thank you for your opinion. --Bob K31416 (talk) 12:33, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
- That's a rather peculiar reply. If you think that no readers of Wikipedia are stupid or that no readers of Wikipedia are bigots, then just say so. But surely you know that such people exist and read Wikipedia too, don't you? 99.192.81.74 (talk) 12:42, 24 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
- If you had a registered account, other editors could discuss personal issues with you on your talk page and possibly settle differences. As it is now, you effectively don't have a talk page because your IP address frequently changes. --Bob K31416 (talk) 12:48, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
- That's a rather peculiar reply. If you think that no readers of Wikipedia are stupid or that no readers of Wikipedia are bigots, then just say so. But surely you know that such people exist and read Wikipedia too, don't you? 99.192.81.74 (talk) 12:42, 24 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
- I've accepted that there are a diversity of editor personalities on Wikipedia so I'll simply thank you for your opinion. --Bob K31416 (talk) 12:33, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
- There are lots of different kinds of people in the general readership. Among them are: (1) Stupid people. These people might be confused, even given the clear explanations provided in the article. But then again, these people might read the Max Webster article and get to the end wondering if Max is a man or a woman. We can't and shouldn't edit to the level of the dumb reader. (2) Bigots. There are people out there who have hateful attitudes toward transgender people or who roll their eyes and think that transgender people are all crazy and that to acknowledge the legitimacy of being transgender is "pandering". Those people will have no trouble understanding the page as written, but it will piss them off, so they might pretend that it is confusing in order to try to get it changed to match their prejudices. Those people should be ignored as well. (3) People who are neither stupid nor bigots. Those people will have no difficulty understanding what the page says. This page is as readable as any other Wikipedia page, so the only barriers for the general readership to understanding the page are stupidity and bigotry. 99.192.81.74 (talk) 12:19, 24 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
- These readability tests [12] suggest a readability level of early high school (mid 10th year of schooling) to first year of undergraduate (early 13th year) for this article as it currently reads. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:03, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
- That's pretty good given how convoluted grammar on Wikipedia can get. However, the problem there would be sentences festooned with subclauses and every special case, because the many conflicting editors demand precision - not pronoun usage - David Gerard (talk) 13:59, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
- For comparison, here's a link to the version of the article the day before Manning's gender announcement.[13] The part of the current version about Manning's life before the gender announcement seems less readable with respect to personal pronouns. Just my opinion. --Bob K31416 (talk) 12:39, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- Hmm, that old version makes it sound like a person who's unequivocally a man. That doesn't seem to fit when we know this person has struggled with gender identity since childhood. Also, a patchwork of "he"s and "she"s can lead to confusion about who is being talked about, as the subject of this biography is a trans woman. I start reading with she; it's less jarring to be consistent. __Elaqueate (talk) 12:49, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- There wouldn't be a patchwork of he's and she's for example in the whole section Background of that previous version. --Bob K31416 (talk) 12:59, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, and if we eliminated the last five years of events in this subject's life, then it would be much quicker to read. But I find it easier and more informative to read when it is based on up-to-date assessments of who the subject is, and incorporates new information and developments. I don't want to have to pretend I'm a person in 1992, with only the evidence available to a person living in 1992, to read about events in 1992. __Elaqueate (talk) 13:08, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- Re "I don't want to have to pretend I'm a person in 1992, with only the evidence available to a person living in 1992, to read about events in 1992." — That would be a consideration for Manning's reading of the article but the article isn't for only Manning to read, and Manning may not even feel that way about the article. --Bob K31416 (talk) 13:19, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- I don't know what Manning reading the article has to do with it. This seems like a non sequitur. I was talking about my own reading. If we know something new about the subject's present and past, I don't mind having it represented in the text, even if it's not something people knew in the past. And I don't find it makes things less readable, as per your query. __Elaqueate (talk) 13:36, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for clarifying your remark. I don't think one would have to pretend to be a person in 1992 and I don't think the NLGJA thought that when they recommended, "When writing about events prior to when the person began living publicly as the opposite gender, NLGJA recommends using the name and gender the individual used publicly at that time." --Bob K31416 (talk) 13:50, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- Other sources suggest otherwise (including current Wikipedia consensus). And most (including NLGJA) defer to AP style, where one should use the name and pronouns that someone prefers, when expressed. People seem to have differing views of "I also request that, starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun (except in official mail to the confinement facility)." Some people see an implied exception for the past from the phrase "Starting today". (I just see the one exception, official correspondence; if you shake down the sentence it says "Starting now, use the feminine pronoun.", as in, I would like you to do this now, not later, and not as, only do this from this point in time. The second reading requires assuming a parallel preference for "he" that is not expressed, in a letter where she says she has felt female since childhood. But I thought you were asking about readability, not re-opening a previous discussion about pronouns. Talking about the NLJGA isn't discussing readability. FWIW, I find it readable now. __Elaqueate (talk) 15:45, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for clarifying your remark. I don't think one would have to pretend to be a person in 1992 and I don't think the NLGJA thought that when they recommended, "When writing about events prior to when the person began living publicly as the opposite gender, NLGJA recommends using the name and gender the individual used publicly at that time." --Bob K31416 (talk) 13:50, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- I don't know what Manning reading the article has to do with it. This seems like a non sequitur. I was talking about my own reading. If we know something new about the subject's present and past, I don't mind having it represented in the text, even if it's not something people knew in the past. And I don't find it makes things less readable, as per your query. __Elaqueate (talk) 13:36, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- Re "I don't want to have to pretend I'm a person in 1992, with only the evidence available to a person living in 1992, to read about events in 1992." — That would be a consideration for Manning's reading of the article but the article isn't for only Manning to read, and Manning may not even feel that way about the article. --Bob K31416 (talk) 13:19, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, and if we eliminated the last five years of events in this subject's life, then it would be much quicker to read. But I find it easier and more informative to read when it is based on up-to-date assessments of who the subject is, and incorporates new information and developments. I don't want to have to pretend I'm a person in 1992, with only the evidence available to a person living in 1992, to read about events in 1992. __Elaqueate (talk) 13:08, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- There wouldn't be a patchwork of he's and she's for example in the whole section Background of that previous version. --Bob K31416 (talk) 12:59, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
Prejudice in the super-section section above
Would the question above (regarding which pronoun gender to use when) have been raised if the subject of the article outwardly appeared more like a societal notion of how a woman should look? Why have parallel complaints not been raised for celebrity transgender individuals such as Chaz Bono or Lana Wachowski? Startswithj (talk) 15:23, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
- Clarification: This comment was deleted for possible WP:NPA concern. I want to be clear that I question the continued request to change the pronoun usage of this article, and I do not intend to suggest conclusions or assign labels about the editor in particular. Startswithj (talk) 15:27, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
attempt rewording of statement
am trying rewrite of sentence "According to a friend, at the age of 13 Manning said that she was gay." sentence was brought up in previous discuss as unclear, so try to make more clear by say "According to a friend, at the age of 13 Manning said that she, then living as male, was attracted to other males." am draw on source that say "Me and [another friend] Zack were spending the night. I went down to get a Mountain Dew or something because we were about to go to sleep. I was in my bed, and Bradley was on the couch. Zack was on a mattress on the floor. And [I] came back, and he told me he was gay. And I said, "OK, well, you know, it's whatever floats your boat, man." And that was pretty much it." (source is at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/wikileaks/bradley-manning/interviews/jordan-davis.html ) context of article provides information that manning live as male at stated time and is no ambiguity in what is meant by statement of friend. is not point of view if just rewrite stated fact to more clear communicate intended meaning. Lakdfhia (talk) 03:29, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- Nowhere -- nowhere -- does that reference support what you are trying to add to the paragraph. It does not state that "....at the age of 13 Manning said that she, 'then living as male', was 'attracted to other males."' Moriori (talk) 03:53, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
Considering how sensitive this article is re is/was Manning a he or she, in particular the phrase "was attracted to other males" can not be attributed to your synth. Even a paraphrase would need to be based on a ref that says something very close to that. I could just as easily say the ref says she was saying she was attracted to other females, but that would also be unacceptable synth. Get it? Moriori (talk) 04:00, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- is no need for provide source Manning life as male at age 13--not real point of contention there. gender identity was not issue in dialogue in re Manning in 2011, time of interviews. however, source provide context such, while not explicit in state that is live as male, is only conclusion to draw. given this, statement that is gay is only point to one thing--Manning was male who attracted to other males. please be more specific in argument, is hard to tell what is meant by what you are say. what should be rewritten as to make more clear? what can reader conclude if not what i offer as statement? why is source point of contention at all when is obvious no original research go into simple restatement of thing friend say in interview? would not be good synth to provide what you say, as is neither true statement and not conclude reachable by reasonable reader. Lakdfhia (talk) 04:10, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- "....is only conclusion to draw....". There you go -- your words. You simply can't do that. Moriori (talk) 04:14, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- is not true. very pedantic. am unsure what your agenda is. Manning live as male until recently. is point of public knowledge. i misspoke in saying conclusion drawn at all. is not here or there what i conclude or you conclude. is point of public knowledge. Lakdfhia (talk) 04:23, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- "....is only conclusion to draw....". There you go -- your words. You simply can't do that. Moriori (talk) 04:14, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- So long as it is clear to the reader that Manning was gendered as male at birth and was identified as male throughout most of her life, the sentence you are questioning does not need to be changed at all. In context there is no doubt what it means. So if you think there is a problem, perhaps it would be better to suggest some revision elsewhere that makes that context more clear. But even then if you still have a problem with the sentence you are questioning, why not just go with the possible rewrite I mentioned above: "According to a friend, at the age of 13 Manning claimed to be gay." As it is, I agree with the folks that think your suggestion is not a good one. It does involve interpretive synthesis. It also is unnecessary to add "living as a male" to particular bits of information since that should be the clear context for the entire article. 99.192.49.193 (talk) 06:06, 25 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
- I think the current form is problematic. My view is that it should be kept as "She said she was gay." If needs be, the word gay could be in inverted commas, as "gay". I think that we need to be wary of putting words in Manning's mouth. If the recorded quote is "I'm gay." then that should be what is expressed in the article. Raewyn Connell has written about how "gay" can be used as a shorthand for "different", "not like the other boys". It's not implausible that that is what Manning was trying to express - we don't know. Totorotroll (talk) 06:55, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
Just an aside, but while looking at the article the day before Manning's gender announcement, I found this part that corresponds to the part being discussed above.[14]
- "When he was 13 he began to question his sexual orientation, and around this time his parents divorced."
I did this to compare the readability of what we have now to then. Just some info to consider, and feel free to do that or not. --Bob K31416 (talk) 12:19, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- I've changed the wording slightly. Previously it said "she was the only American and, living as a boy, was viewed as effeminate" - although it is obvious what is meant, the wording is a little awkward and could imply that living as a boy makes someone effeminate. Even ignoring that, it implies that trans girls living as boys are effeminate, which may not be universally true. Formerip (talk) 12:55, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- I think that's a different part that isn't the topic of this talk section. Perhaps you could move your comment elsewhere, for example create a new section? If you do, feel free to delete this message too. Also, I'll look at your point. Thanks. --Bob K31416 (talk) 13:39, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- This doesn't make any sense. Why are you telling this person to take their comment out of this section? __Elaqueate (talk) 14:51, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- I think that's a different part that isn't the topic of this talk section. Perhaps you could move your comment elsewhere, for example create a new section? If you do, feel free to delete this message too. Also, I'll look at your point. Thanks. --Bob K31416 (talk) 13:39, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
The interview says, "he told me he was gay". If that is the only source for this point then it should be transcribed as
- "she told him she was gay" or
- "she told him she was 'gay'"
- "Manning described herself as gay" or
- A friend of Manning's said, "he told me he was gay"
- "According to a friend, at the age of 13 Manning said that she was gay."
If it seems unclear, it might be because it is unclear from the source, about what specifically that thirteen-word conversation meant. It shouldn't be elaborated on, because that makes funny ultimately unprovable assumptions about what was said between early-teen boys and what "gay" meant to them. And it is actually a point repeated later without needing gymnastics. There are options that don't require defining what 13-year-old Manning thought was "gay". __Elaqueate (talk) 16:14, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- Bullshit everyone knows what it really means — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.131.136.147 (talk) 18:02, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
"According to a friend, at the age of 13 Manning said that she was "gay."" This sentence seems misleading and maybe someone has more information to improve it. IMHO, which is not useful for the content, is that this is related to her gender dysphoria. For those unaware it is common for someone who is trans to be attracted to the same sex both before and after transitioning. Many consider that the norm. So if a man is attracted to other men, then transitions, she is still attracted to men. This is not changing sexual orientation though. She was always heterosexual but now is living in as the woman she feels she is. It's possible she identified with gay people because of her outsider status. But without clarification I think it's misleading to suggest she was gay, as that would mean she is now attracted to women. I think this needs to be clarified and written better. I think:
At age 13, a friend of Manning's said, "he told me he was gay"
This helps the point that Chelsea was living as a young man at the time. Sportfan5000 (talk) 00:25, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
- Either work for me. I think it needs to be clear and at the same time it needs to avoid paraphrase and putting words into people's mouths. Jordan Davis, the friend, says in the interview cited "...he told me he was gay." In an interview dealing with the period of Manning's return to Wales, Brian Manning is quoted as saying "And he said, "You know, Dad, I just want to let you know, I'm gay."" I think using the quotes in their entirety would go some way towards avoiding any ambiguity. The links are http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/wikileaks/bradley-manning/interviews/jordan-davis.html and http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/wikileaks/bradley-manning/interviews/brian-manning.html Totorotroll (talk) 10:40, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see much wrong with just using the quote, in quotes, attributed - David Gerard (talk) 17:30, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
- One point. A friend of Manning's said that, when he was age 13, "he told me he was gay". - otherwise, you're saying that the friend said the words "he told me he was gay" when the friend was age 13.
- I don't see much wrong with just using the quote, in quotes, attributed - David Gerard (talk) 17:30, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
Photograph
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
As Chelsea Elizabeth Manning has identified herself as a trans woman, I have changed the infobox photograph to show her expressing herself female. It is usual for the infobox photograph of a trans person to show that person in the gender chosen. Abigailgem (talk) 17:01, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
- I changed it back. That is a picture of Lauren McNamara, the subject of the interview where the picture comes from. It is not a picture of Manning at all. 99.192.72.176 (talk) 17:06, 27 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
- Inappropriate photo. This rationalization for using someone else's image, woman, man, or trangender, just doesn't fly. – S. Rich (talk) 17:28, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
- Ummm... You have wildly misunderstood what happened. Abigailgem changed the picture believing that it was a picture of Manning. I changed it back because it was a mistake. No one was trying to intentionally use a picture of someone else. 99.192.69.119 (talk) 21:54, 27 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
- Inappropriate photo. This rationalization for using someone else's image, woman, man, or trangender, just doesn't fly. – S. Rich (talk) 17:28, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
- Those concerned about the current photo may feel better knowing that it is being used with Chelsea Manning's blessing. User:SlimVirgin reported receiving an email from David Coombs (Manning's lawyer), and stated that,
- "I've obtained clarification of Manning's statement today from his lawyer, David Coombs, which I'm sharing with his permission. Regarding the pronoun, he wrote that the female pronoun should be used only for post-announcement material. I also asked about the current main photograph, and he said that Chelsea is proud of the photograph and would want it to be used until a better one becomes available."
- That said, while Wikipedia does have policy covering biographies of living people, it does not necessarily cater to the wishes of the subjects of those articles. -- ToE 22:10, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
- While we of course have no obligation to cater to the wishes of the subject if they are at odds with accurate and encyclopedic coverage, it is still a useful point of evidence that the subject herself endorses one of the proposed ways of handling the pronouns. --erachima talk 22:47, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
Postpone move discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Currently the Arbitration Committee is seeking to vote on a proposal to temporarily postpone the move discussion: [15]. This proposal was raised a few days ago. So, to have an orderly discussion on the move proposal, it seems prudent to postpone for the time being, and I am proposing postponing until either the Arbitration proposal passes or fails. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:56, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
- Support Why start a move discussion if it is going to be closed soon after anyways? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:57, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
- The propoosal is failing, big time. Oppose delay. Adam Cuerden (talk) 18:12, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
- What do you mean? It is currently supported by a majority of those who have voted, and needs one more vote. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:28, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
- It needs 4 net supports. it has 2. Fromt he top of the motions thing "Four net "support" votes needed to pass (each "oppose" vote subtracts a "support")" Adam Cuerden (talk) 03:55, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- There are two committee members left to cast their input if one of them chooses to support the extension or if one abstains then consensus will be in favor to hold off the move discussion. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:07, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- What do you mean? It is currently supported by a majority of those who have voted, and needs one more vote. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:28, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose delay regardless Thirty days of misnaming was already too long. Allowing procedural issues and policy ambiguities to enable and extend this is just wrong. This whole thing is a gross insult to many trans and allied readers, editors, and so on, and quite possibly to Chelsea Manning herself. Ananiujitha (talk) 18:39, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
- Comment: I am leaving, and the Arbitration vote is 6-4 in favor of delay, but for clarity this proposal will be automatically withdrawn should that vote reverse (7 is required to pass). Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:53, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
- I oppose the suggestion to postpone, and also oppose the principle that ArbCom has the power to determine what can and can't be discussed and when. If ArbCom finds that the moratorium should be extended, I don't think that should be honored. This will cause a shitstorm which will be harmful for both the discussion and for wikipedia. While that is obviously not desirable for a calm discussion, the blame for that will lie with ArbCom. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 19:21, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
- I think that if we don't follow arbcom it will cause a storm on what authority they do and do not have. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:29, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
- Whatever storm it will cause, I'm sure it will cause some sort of storm, and that it will be detriment to reasonable discussion. While I'm honestly sorry for that, this is not something I think we should allow. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 19:41, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
- Comment I don't really understand the reason for the proposed delay (what is the committee trying to arbitrate that requires this delay?), but I do predict that any editors who believe the name of the article should be changed will vote to oppose a delay in the discussion while any editors who are against changing the name will be happy to vote for a delay in the discussion. So the proposal here is likely to really just be a straw pole about whether editors favour or oppose a title change. 99.192.95.215 (talk) 19:27, 29 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
- I hope and think (though there may be at least some wishful thinking here) that our editors will judge postponing the request to delay on its merits, and will not let their opinion on the outcome of the move color their judgement too much. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 19:41, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
- I don't want to cast any aspersions on anyone, but I think it is wishful thinking. I don't see anyone who has yet said "I support the move to 'Chelsea', but think we should delay the discussion" or "I do not support the move to 'Chelsea', but think we should not delay the move discussion". I also note (still not wishing to cast aspersions) that you both support the move and do not support the delay in the discussion. Just sayin'. 99.192.95.215 (talk) 22:12, 29 September 2013 (UTC) (=99.192....)
I oppose this motion, aswe should on act ArbCom's decisions, not on any anticipation of what their decisions might be. I do think that ArbCom should allow us to proceed with the RM on schedule, but if they do act to postpone the discussion, then we should honor their decision. The move discussion last month was tainted by procedural arguments of BLP vs. BRD. This upcoming discussion needs to be held on the merits of the move alone, and not started with a heated argument over ArbCom's involvement and authority. -- ToE 19:42, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
- I should clarify that I don't think we should delay solely to await the vote on the temporary injunction itself. I have no objection to a consensus arrived delay in order to await the results of the entire ArbCom decision or to resolve initial policy concerns. -- ToE 12:23, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Comment I think Arbcom's proposal to delay is unfortunate. If the RM starts and the proposal to delay passes, then people are going to be pissed.Two kinds of pork (talk) 19:45, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
- Comment. I don't see how the Arbitration Committee has any effective authority to prevent a move proposal from going forward. As I understand it their powers of injunction can only prohibit actions by "parties to the case, or other editors notified of the injunction". In my experience "notified" means "personally notified", rather than "assumed to have read an announcement of the injunction at some central location". So a move discussion could still proceed in theory, with all non-participants in the arbitration case discussing the move until such time as they are warned not to by the Arbitration Committee. Admittedly this could make for a rather crippled move discussion, so I do not at this point presume to judge whether or not initiating a move discussion would be a good idea. —Psychonaut (talk) 19:47, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
- Comment What if the chosen date of the move discussion gets involved in the debate? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:52, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
- Support It would seem prudent to for all concerned to exersize restraint and wait for ArbCom to decide on their findings. If nothing else, their input would likely prove useful in attempting to prevent a repeat of the previous meltdown. Dolescum (talk) 20:10, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose any further delays. I think Ananiujitha expressed it well. This is a highly visible insult to trans people and needs to be addressed. If more offensive comments come at least theoretically they will be addressed quickly but no amount of delays will change everyone into a more enlightened understanding of trans issues. Sportfan5000 (talk) 20:18, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
- The move discussion needs to be done fairly and without interference from major things like this so a solid consensus can form. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:25, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
- Fairness is not delaying the inevitable any longer, especially when it's an affront on a BLP, which also causes distress to trans people. We don't need more delay maneuvering, we need to finally close the chapter on this misgendering issue. Sportfan5000 (talk) 22:02, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
- The move discussion needs to be done fairly and without interference from major things like this so a solid consensus can form. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:25, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose ArbCom-imposed delay per Martijn Hoekstra above and Newyorkbrad in the ArbCom discussion. ArbCom has no business telling well-behaved and policy-compliant editors when they may discuss a content issue, and if editors who misbehaved in the earlier discussions do so again they can be sanctioned, per discretionary sanctions. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 22:58, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
- There are some other issues there, like how the policies, especially "biographies of living persons" (sic) are supposed to work. These could come up here. I still feel like delay, under the circumstances, is an insult. Ananiujitha (talk) 23:13, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
- There may well be good reasons for waiting. If editors here choose to delay, then fine. It is not ArbCom's role or right or in their gift, though, to impose it. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 13:41, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- There are some other issues there, like how the policies, especially "biographies of living persons" (sic) are supposed to work. These could come up here. I still feel like delay, under the circumstances, is an insult. Ananiujitha (talk) 23:13, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose - Short of remanding this whole thing to a binding RfC, which I don't believe has been proposed at this time, it is beyond Arbcom's authority to dictate an RM discussion's open or start time. Tarc (talk) 23:05, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
- Strong Support The issues involved in the arbitration case are many and complex and directly pertinent to the discussion afterwards, especially given the real possibility that some of the people involved in the discussion would end up being topic-banned and precluded from participating in the discussion. It's like holding the wrongful death civil litigation while the criminal trial's still going on. Already, the tone of this discussion appears to be very troubling, both with the direct implication that ArbCom has no jurisdiction and with the direct implication that anybody that disagrees with a certain position is insulting Ms. Manning rather than citing direct, relevant WP policy. If we're already going to start with the casting aspersions, this will be right back on ANI.CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 01:25, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- I agree the same problems are popping up all over again it seems. Better to be a non bias discussion than a rushed one. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:34, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Support - I don't see how ArbCom decisions are not affecting the upcoming move discussion. Some editors will be topic-banned, comments will be monitored, and some other editors will be warned. By the way, I didn't realize that I'm not allowed to vote at the ArbCom page. --George Ho (talk) 01:39, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- This needs to be said in big text:
THE ARBCOM PROPOSAL TO DELAY MOVE DISCUSSIONS IS FAILING It needed 4 net supports, it has 2 net supporst with 10 of the 12 having voted. It is vanishingly unlikely this will pass, and would be highly controversial if it did with so much opposition. Adam Cuerden (talk) 03:52, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Will you please address the concerns raised here? If it does pass then it could be a huge issue. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:57, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- And if it doesn't, which sseems far more likely? Adam Cuerden (talk) 06:27, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- The absence of an injunction against initiating the requested move is not an affirmative declaration to start the move. There are lots of issues to sort out and lots of people who may not be able to participate in the upcoming move discussion, and these issues persist no matter what color text you use. I strongly support holding off until the arbitration committee is finished its work on this issue, whether or not they choose to formally preclude such discussion or not (and getting 2 votes of 2 admins is hardly some implausibly remote scenario, as you seem to imply)CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 07:03, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- And if a BLP shall suffer as a result, not a problem? Adam Cuerden (talk) 08:32, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- If the pronouns did not probably recognize Chelsea Manning as a female now or r, I would consider that a crucial BLP issue under MOSIDENTITY. This is simply about the title, we're still using the stable title, one used for years, one still widely being used in reliable sources, and the one Ms. Manning was known by during the events that made her a person of historical significance. There are strong arguments for both titles -- I'm still leaning to Bradley given that reliable sources using Chelsea almost always still explain that she was formerly known as Bradley Manning, suggesting that the title is not the one a reader is the most likely to search for -- but I don't see any BLP imperative to change the title. This would be different is Ms. Manning was not notable under her original name, that would be a different story, but knowledge of her original name in a title causes her no harm, given that Bradley Manning will not be wiped from the article and the explicit acknowledgement from her lawyer that she understands that historically references -- which Wikipedia is -- would still refer to her as Bradley Manning. So I see no compelling BLP issue here that warrants us deciding while a large arbitration case on the matter is still pending.CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 14:27, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- And if a BLP shall suffer as a result, not a problem? Adam Cuerden (talk) 08:32, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Worm That Turned has voted in opposition to a delay, making it impossible for the final outstanding Arbitrator to sway the decision unless another Arbitrator changes votes. Even if an Arbitrator changes votes and the Committee passes a suggestion that the RM be delayed, numerous administrators and other editors have expressed the opinion that the Committee has no authority to actually postpone a RM.
However, there are still reasonable arguments in favor of waiting for the conclusion of the Arbcom case before beginning the RM, provided the Arbcom case concludes speedily.
Whenever the RM starts, it should, per discussion here, take place on the subpage which has been set aside for it, so that the edit history is easier for the closers to follow to prevent shenanigans (and for other reasons). To ensure that editors were aware that is where the discussion will be occurring, I have added a section below noting as much. I am not opening the RM, I am only laying some final bits of framework in place for it. -sche (talk) 08:47, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Seeing that the worm that turned has voted oppose there is yes no consensus by arbcom to postpone the move, however I still see unresolved concerns here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 11:54, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Support – Even if the committee does not have authority and/or desire to order a delay, it would be wise to wait until they have reached a decision on how Wikipedia policies apply to the content of this article and the conduct of discussions about it. That way, we will not find ourselves re-arguing those questions in the move discussion. The case is highly likely to be closed within the next two weeks. – Smyth\talk 11:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Strong oppose to any additional delay. The last discussion had hundreds of participants; the next one probably will also. The outcome will not turn on the opinions of a handful of editors who might potentially be sanctioned by ArbCom. Editors perceived to have misbehaved in the previous discussion will already be on a much tighter leash under the discussion guidelines that the community has adopted with respect to this discussion. Even some members of ArbCom have indicated that they do not believe their decision will have any effect on the move discussion. Finally, as a member of the closing panel, we determined that a relatively short turnaround for a new discussion was supported by the consensus of the community, wherein a significant portion of editors who supported the reversion did so either on procedural grounds (because of perceived errors with the initial set of moves), or because there had not yet been time for sources to reflect a change in common name. The thirty day restriction was intended to give enough time for passions to cool, for sources to develop and be collected, and possibly for clarifications or alterations to be made to the relevant policies. The first two have occurred, and the third is unlikely to benefit from any additional time. The restriction has served its purpose, and no further purpose is to be served by additional delay. bd2412 T 13:33, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Given the nastiness of the original discussion, it only takes a few angry editors on both sides to turn a discussion into a melee. I find it inappropriate to try to hold a new discussion in which some of the participants will likely be topic-banned and thus precluded from the discussion. If you think passions have cooled, if you read this section carefully, you already have people declaring that people with a differing opinion on the title itself are insulting Chelsea Manning and people declaring that the arbitration committee has no jurisdiction. That doesn't sound like a new environment of constructive conversation based on Wikipedia policy has developed.CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 14:32, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Let me rephrase, you already have people declaring that those in favor of even a short *delay* are insulting Chelsea Manning (the insult reference was based on the delay, not the title change itself)CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 14:35, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- This is a topic that will inspire passionate discourse. Nothing ArbCom does will change that, so counting on ArbCom's final decision to have any effect on the tone of the discussion is indulging a false hope and inviting a disastrous reality check. The only thing that will effect the conduct of the next discussion is the community's own oversight during that discussion. bd2412 T 16:23, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Let me rephrase, you already have people declaring that those in favor of even a short *delay* are insulting Chelsea Manning (the insult reference was based on the delay, not the title change itself)CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 14:35, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Given the nastiness of the original discussion, it only takes a few angry editors on both sides to turn a discussion into a melee. I find it inappropriate to try to hold a new discussion in which some of the participants will likely be topic-banned and thus precluded from the discussion. If you think passions have cooled, if you read this section carefully, you already have people declaring that people with a differing opinion on the title itself are insulting Chelsea Manning and people declaring that the arbitration committee has no jurisdiction. That doesn't sound like a new environment of constructive conversation based on Wikipedia policy has developed.CoffeeCrumbs (talk) 14:32, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Administrative note: I know everyone here is aware that this topic area is covered by discretionary sanctions, but allow me to remind you of it again. "Dicretionary sanctions" means that administrators have wide discretion to do what they think is needed to keep user behavior under control in this area. Given the heated nature of every discussion having to do with Manning lately, it's imperative that we do our best to keep discussions like this one as calm as possible. To that end, I am going to be keeping an eye on things here. If emotions or a sub-discussion seem to be getting out of hand, I may collapse comments or ask people to step back from the conversation as needed. Remember that you're here to discuss things in light of policy and logic, not to judge other people or to make grand statements of opinion or emotion. Yes, it can be tempting, especially when people are being wrong on the internet, but it will be ultimately fatal to our ability to reach a valid conclusion to the discussion if you can't resist the urge. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 15:19, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Strong oppose delay for the myriad reasons listed above. — Richard BB 15:21, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Starting move request
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Given there is a pretty clear consensus to not delay the move above, I think we should open the move within 24 hours. Until that time, I suggest editors go over closely the evidence here: Talk:Bradley Manning/October 2013 move request and begin crafting the "why move" argument, which will be at the top of the move request. It could be kept simple, e.g. move to Chelsea per COMMONNAME, or you may want to put together a more nuanced argument, but it probably shouldn't be too long. So, let's use the remaining time to finalize the move request and clean up any last bits of evidence and then launch it as of ~10:30 EST on October 1.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:50, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- I asked Fluffernutter if he could monitor the going ons of this discussion, as it is bound to get nasty at some point. He said he would try, but time might be an issue. If anyone could recruit other admins to watch this, that might make the discussion less contentious.Two kinds of pork (talk) 15:33, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Please note, the limitation set forth in the close of the previous discussion was "thirty days from the date of this determination", not "thirty days from the minute of this determination". In other words, this doesn't need to wait until the clock strikes 03:50. Cheers! bd2412 T 16:27, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- well, the clock has already struck 03:50 I think... :) --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:41, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, the move discussion can be launched immediately. The proposal itself doesn't need to be lengthy, and certainly not a perfect summary of every issue at play. bd2412 T 17:00, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- I agree - it doesn't have to be long, nor cover all arguments. I just think it hasn't yet been drafted, and I wanted to give editors here who haven't been following the move request preparation time to join in and make any last tweaks to the evidence (of course, new evidence can also be presented during the move) and for those who want this page moved to draft a proper argument therefore.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:08, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, the move discussion can be launched immediately. The proposal itself doesn't need to be lengthy, and certainly not a perfect summary of every issue at play. bd2412 T 17:00, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- well, the clock has already struck 03:50 I think... :) --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:41, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Please note, the limitation set forth in the close of the previous discussion was "thirty days from the date of this determination", not "thirty days from the minute of this determination". In other words, this doesn't need to wait until the clock strikes 03:50. Cheers! bd2412 T 16:27, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Note: Josh Gorand has just started the move request here, without giving time for others to opine on the move request header, nor with keeping the move request on a separate page as had previously been discussed/agreed. I suggest editors weigh in here, but I agree it would be cleaner for the purposes of tracking history and managing the discussion to
- put the move request on a separate page
- Give a little bit more time for editors to come up with a neutral wording of the "reasons" for the move - we have plenty of evidence, we just need to put together a consensus header for the move.
--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:39, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- If the editors haven't built a consensus header in the month of preparation by now, I'm doubtful you'll get anything new in these last few hours. I think the time for hesitancy is past, and we might as well kick off the move discussion. Dralwik|Have a Chat 19:43, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- You cannot remove an active move discussion, and the working space titled something with october (containing a lot of debate of limited relevance to the actual discussion) is more messy than this talk page, and less visible. Also, the header is "requested move" or something like that, added by a template, and nothing to discuss. Josh Gorand (talk) 19:45, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- I just realized today that we hadn't worked on the header itself. Please, I've already placed Josh's comments over there, and we can clean up the remaining discussions (we've been doing so already). Let's focus on the arguments for the header - I don't want people spending their time complaining about the biased header in the RFC.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:48, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- No, no more delays, and stop acting like you WP:OWN this talk page. Any editor is allowed to file a move request, and the proposal by the proposer is entirely up to the proposer (as was the case the last time). It was agreed by wide consensus that we start the RM now, and it has started. Josh Gorand (talk) 19:51, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Josh, you certainly could have participated in the discussion about where the RM would be be held. IIRC, Obi worked very hard on putting together a framework for the RM, and others solidified that framework. I was only tangentially involved myself, but I was aware of what they were doing and I would agree with Obi that there is a consensus to have this on the sub-page. Please be patient, I suspect the RM will begin quite soon. I would request that Obi explain how long and what are we exactly waiting for.Two kinds of pork (talk) 19:56, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- I remember Josh being warned away by Obi-Wan Kenobi in a manner I suggested, at the time, was uncivil. I don't think it's fair to say Josh was made welcome there. Obi-Wan Kenobi made it clear what kind of participation they thought was acceptable. __Elaqueate (talk) 20:03, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Josh, you certainly could have participated in the discussion about where the RM would be be held. IIRC, Obi worked very hard on putting together a framework for the RM, and others solidified that framework. I was only tangentially involved myself, but I was aware of what they were doing and I would agree with Obi that there is a consensus to have this on the sub-page. Please be patient, I suspect the RM will begin quite soon. I would request that Obi explain how long and what are we exactly waiting for.Two kinds of pork (talk) 19:56, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- No, no more delays, and stop acting like you WP:OWN this talk page. Any editor is allowed to file a move request, and the proposal by the proposer is entirely up to the proposer (as was the case the last time). It was agreed by wide consensus that we start the RM now, and it has started. Josh Gorand (talk) 19:51, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Here was the rough agreement to hold the discussion on the sub-page: Talk:Bradley_Manning/October_2013_move_request/Comments_unrelated_to_evidence#Streamlining.. I suggest we announce here the exact opening time of the RM, giving everyone a chance to put final edits to sources and agree on the header. The time should be 03:50 UTC, October 1.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:49, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- I agree that the move discussion should not take place here, (primarily because it is going to be enormous, and edit history can get lost in non-move related discussion). The template should be placed on this page, with an instruction to engage in the discussion on the subpage. However, I see no reason to delay initiating the move - the text of the request can be tweaked even after it has launched. bd2412 T 19:53, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
I'll support that time. (For those unfamiliar with UTC, that's 11:50 PM Eastern Time tonight.)Let's get the move request started, and perhaps the high traffic for input will help rework the header. Dralwik|Have a Chat 19:54, 30 September 2013 (UTC)- The impatience here, esp when there has been a group of editors carefully preparing the move, is annoying. that said, we shoudl retain the original page for the purposes of tracking edits, vs a massive copy/paste. I'm changing this now.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:59, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- I just realized today that we hadn't worked on the header itself. Please, I've already placed Josh's comments over there, and we can clean up the remaining discussions (we've been doing so already). Let's focus on the arguments for the header - I don't want people spending their time complaining about the biased header in the RFC.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:48, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
I've now pointed the new move discussion to the original evidence page; that way we can have a history of the discussions, all in one place, vs a copy/paste mess. If you already weighed in, please do so again. Also, please feel free to update the header of the RM - I was hoping to get a rough consensus on the header BEFORE starting the RM but people are so anxious we'll have to do so AFTER it's already started.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:11, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
2nd Requested move
Bradley Manning → Chelsea Manning – It has been proposed to rename this article Chelsea Manning on the grounds that this has become the WP:COMMONNAME of the subject in reliable sources following the subject's announced name change; and on the grounds that WP:BLP favors avoiding harm to the subject, rendering the subejct's previous name problematic, per WP:TITLE.
bd2412 T 19:57, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Specifically the requested-move survey can be found on that page at Talk:Bradley_Manning/October_2013_move_request#Survey. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:41, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Updated link. It's better to use the same place where the RM was developed, so we have a history of who added what to the evidence, etc.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:04, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- This is the second time you deleted an active move discussion. Last time I checked, you were one of the editors who opposed the title Chelsea last time. You cannot obstruct the right of the other side to file an RM. Also, you didn't merely move the discussion, you added personal comments that you should add in the comments, support or oppose sections. Josh Gorand (talk) 20:13, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- User BD2412 already initiated the move request, yours was a duplicate. Tarc (talk) 20:17, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- @Josh, be fair. You know very well that Obi-Wan put a tremendous amount of work into gathering evidence in support of this proposal. I seen no reason why you can't co-sign the proposal. (Also, re-state your !vote).
- @Tarc, actually all I did was correct the errant placement of the template to avoid bot confusion. Josh did initiate the move first, but with some technical glitches. bd2412 T 20:20, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- User BD2412 already initiated the move request, yours was a duplicate. Tarc (talk) 20:17, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Um, excuse me, I put a tremendous amount of work into gathering evidence in support of this proposal for a month, I don't know at all that Obiwan put any greater effort than me. As it happens, I legitimately filed the RM per the instructions on creating RMs, late in the day on the date agreed on for a month (after waiting quite a number of hours for any developments or signs of other editors doing it on the agreed date), and I wrote the proposal in question. Obiwan could of course have created an RM if he had so wanted, or he could co-sign the one written by me if he had so wanted, or even add an additional rationale written by himself, but not make changes to a signed comment without permission, because that's against the Requested Move procedure. Josh Gorand (talk) 18:14, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Admin note: Josh and Obi, please stop reverting each other right now. Getting into an edit war before the RfC RM is even used does not bode well for either of your abilities to conduct yourselves calmly on this topic, and I will be implementing discretionary sanctions on this talk page and the RfC RM if they are necessary. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 20:26, 30 September 2013 (UTC) edited 20:35, 30 September 2013 (UTC) , because I got my Rs mixed up. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 20:35, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Hi - could I ask some other editors to weigh in here on a meta-point? I think given the complexity and massiveness of this discussion, the "header" for the RM should not be controlled by one person, but Josh is currently behaving as if it is. The whole rest of the RM (evidence, discussion guidelines, relevant policies) were co-developed by editors across the spectrum, and my hope had been (as I noted above) was to develop a consensus RM header that laid out the arguments for the move, and to use the next 24 hours to do so. Josh, however, is acting as if he owns this RM, and that he is the only one who can touch the precious header space at the top. While for most moves this may be the case, a wide-ranging RFC like this one (I will put as an RFC soon) should certainly behave differently. Any thoughts? --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:30, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- I'd say: Dudes, just calm down a second - David Gerard (talk) 20:33, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- My thoughts are that neither Obi-Wan Kenobi or Josh or any one editor should own this discussion. You seem to be announcing how you expect people should contribute, rather than getting consensus. I think the move doesn't need active shepherding by a single editor at each contribution. __Elaqueate (talk) 20:41, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- You may note that above, today, I asked for contributions from anyone towards the move request header. Given the whole RM was co-developed, I felt it only logical that the header also be co-developed - e.g. the place where the case is made so to speak. I was not trying to own anything, nor announcing how people should contribute, I was only requesting help from anyone willing.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:09, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- My thoughts are that neither Obi-Wan Kenobi or Josh or any one editor should own this discussion. You seem to be announcing how you expect people should contribute, rather than getting consensus. I think the move doesn't need active shepherding by a single editor at each contribution. __Elaqueate (talk) 20:41, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
OK, just to be clear: is this the actual move discussion, or is it off on a subpage somewhere? - David Gerard (talk) 20:32, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- The RM is now underway here. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:37, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- I have notified all WikiProjects with which this subject is associated. bd2412 T 20:54, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- @BD2412:: I see you put a notification on the LGBT studies "Person" task force's talkpage; do you think it would be useful to notify the general WikiProject talk page? -sche (talk) 00:08, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
- I have notified all WikiProjects with which this subject is associated. bd2412 T 20:54, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Requests/Questions
- If you have a request or question in regards to the move discussion please place them here:
@Fluffernutter: Could you please clarify as to whether you will close this move request, or simply oversee it until it closes? Edge3 (talk) 20:55, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- No, Edge, I don't intend to close the discussion. I'm just here to try to keep things from becoming so overheated that it impacts the community's ability to have the discussion they're trying to have. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 20:58, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Then would you be willing to recruit the closing admins, if they have not already been appointed? Edge3 (talk) 21:04, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- The way that's usually handled is by someone posting to WP:AN that closers are going to be needed for Big Discussion X, and then experienced editors who are interested volunteer. I don't know if that's been done already, or whether the people who compiled the RM had made a similar request anywhere else. If not, I imagine that anyone would be welcome to put out the call on AN when it's needed. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 21:09, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- I posted asking for uninvolved admins to keep an eye on civility per discretionary sanctions, hopefully that'll help - David Gerard (talk) 21:17, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Note: User:Keilana has agreed to be a closing admin for this discussion. If it keeps going the way it's going, we may not need a three-admin panel this time. bd2412 T 21:33, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- I posted asking for uninvolved admins to keep an eye on civility per discretionary sanctions, hopefully that'll help - David Gerard (talk) 21:17, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- The way that's usually handled is by someone posting to WP:AN that closers are going to be needed for Big Discussion X, and then experienced editors who are interested volunteer. I don't know if that's been done already, or whether the people who compiled the RM had made a similar request anywhere else. If not, I imagine that anyone would be welcome to put out the call on AN when it's needed. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 21:09, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Then would you be willing to recruit the closing admins, if they have not already been appointed? Edge3 (talk) 21:04, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Can you please clarify where it was decided to exclude the opinions of IP editors and exclude them from participating, without any IP editor having participated or given their opinion? Can you clarify why this decision was reached? 168.12.253.66 (talk) 21:18, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- I did this as a preemptive measure, based on years of experience of high-schoolers gleefully disrupting high-profile discussions. bd2412 T 21:34, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- +1 :-D But more seriously, it's somewhere for Wikipedians, of at least four days' experience - David Gerard (talk) 21:38, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Such as myself? Why, then, am I excluded? 168.12.253.66 (talk) 14:31, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- Look at all the warnings on your own talk page. Assuming in good faith that they were not directed at you, but others editing from the same IP address, it is still impossible to know what your own experience with Wikipedia is. If you get an account today, you'll have the four days of editing history before this discussion closes, on October 7th. bd2412 T 18:43, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- Hey how about we leave this page as Bradley Manning so people know who we are talking about cause nobody knows who chelsea manning is because they do no exist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.224.123.145 (talk) 00:43, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
- Such as myself? Why, then, am I excluded? 168.12.253.66 (talk) 14:31, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- +1 :-D But more seriously, it's somewhere for Wikipedians, of at least four days' experience - David Gerard (talk) 21:38, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- I did this as a preemptive measure, based on years of experience of high-schoolers gleefully disrupting high-profile discussions. bd2412 T 21:34, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
!vote request
I request that the following (my !vote) is added to the support section of the move request.
"Support: Either Chelsea Manning is the common name post-announcement or there is no clear common name. In the latter case common courtesy and the spirit of several rules (e.g. WP:BLP, MOS:IDENTITY) indicatee that the article title ought to be "Chelsea Manning". 88.88.162.176 (talk) 18:34, 5 October 2013 (UTC)"
As the semi-protection was described as a "preemptive measure" a reasonable IP !vote should be allowed once it is ascertained that the intended forestallment does not apply to the content of that !vote. A reasonable IP !vote should not be discounted. 88.88.162.176 (talk) 18:34, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
Childhood photo
Does anyone have any thoughts about the prominent use of a childhood photo of the subject? It seems strange to have both it and the quote "I wouldn't mind going to prison for the rest of my life, or being executed so much, if it wasn't for the possibility of having pictures of me ... plastered all over the world press ... as [a] boy ..." I don't think the subject had any notability at all as a child. Right now it reads as a deliberate slight more than something that has encyclopedic value. The text has multiple indications that she presented as a boy at the time, so I don't think anything is gained by the photo other than the possibility of harm and the appearance of malicious intent on our part. What do people think? __Elaqueate (talk) 11:44, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- From looking at the photo, it seems this was made available by Manning's family for unrestricted use. I don't think it causes any harm. Recall that people asked Manning's lawyer about the military photo, and the reply was that Manning was proud of that. So we shouldn't presume that photos of Manning as a male cause the subject undue harm. I don't think Einstein was notable at the age of three, but there his photo sits. Childhood photos are astonishingly common in biographies; in fact, it would be odd to read a proper biography without one. I think you're looking for problems where none exist.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 14:22, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- By itself, I see your argument. But it's not by itself, it's with a quote that the subject would rather be in prison for life than see photos like this one here. On first read, with photo and quote, it reads as arguably non-neutral. I think the quote is more germane to the subject's notability, and shouldn't be removed, and after reading the quote, the picture is distracting and casts the article somewhat badly. I don't think it's a major question of harm, but I think one option is both more neutral and appears more neutral. I am not against the use of children's pictures in biographies. But if Einstein was 1. Living, and 2. Expressed revulsion specifically at the picture in question, then I think it would be worth considering removal if the same material is repeatedly covered in the text. I understand that Wikipedia is under no absolute requirement to care about feelings, but it should be neutral in tone and structure and not give the appearance of being deliberately provocative. (And I wasn't challenging the military photo here, people seem happy with the original research that was done there for the moment.) __Elaqueate (talk) 16:44, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- Shorter read: I don't think it's illegal to have the picture there, I think the quote and picture are distracting together and it makes the article "less good". __Elaqueate (talk) 16:44, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- If we have evidence that Manning hates that particular photo, then we should remove it - we regularly work with subjects to get photos they prefer. But so far, we don't have any such statement. Manning's statement above about plastered all over the press could be read to be "With me presenting as male" and not "Pictures of me as a boy child". Until we know, I see no reason to remove - esp given this photo came from his family from this set [16], and was made available for unrestricted use. Don't you think if Manning hated these photos, he would ask his family to not release them?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:53, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- I didn't make an assumption about her current relationship with her family or her involvement with releasing the photo. You want me to speculate here; according to our own sources the relationship is either happy or fraught. I am just saying that the quote and picture on the same page can currently be interpreted as an attempt at non-neutral provocation rather than simple illustration. I never claimed the picture is a copyright violation. I'm talking about how we choose to use it or not to appear broadly neutral. Some people will see a nice picture, others will see a rejoinder to the text. In any case, the child photo seems problematic in both of your readings of the quote (while we have an unsourceable okay for the other pic). __Elaqueate (talk) 17:44, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- When I read the article, it's not on the same page, at all. The quote in question is at the bottom.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:55, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- I read it in good faith. I saw how two elements of the article could be read to have a relationship. I saw how it could be made better while remaining strongly and equally encyclopedic, and maintaining the focus on the most notable and sourced activities of the subject. You (and other editors) can choose what you want to take from that, but I don't think I'm going to get in a discussion about how some people have bigger screens, faster reading speed, or longer memories. I'm just saying on first reading it looked less than neutral. __Elaqueate (talk) 18:10, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- Also, is the policy, "If something is questionable, leave it in until we know for sure it's bad?" __Elaqueate (talk) 18:51, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- You have yet to demonstrate in any way, shape or form that a photo of Manning as a child, provided by his family and part of the Save Private Manning Network official flickr account, is nonetheless harmful or not desired by the subject. There's an oversensitivity attached to this article which is frankly ridiculous at times.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:56, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- The direct quote in the article itself can be read as not desiring most of the personal photos here, or only not wanting the one of her as a child, as you have interpreted yourself. I don't share the idea that this is ridiculous oversensitivity. Are you saying it's impossible to think that this picture is unwanted or undesired based on the reading of the direct quote? __Elaqueate (talk) 19:23, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- The direct quote was from chat logs from 3 years ago, while Manning was under considerable stress and going through a crisis of identity, so I don't think we should take anything from those logs as guidance on what to do here - that smacks way too much of overinterpretation of a primary source. The very fact that we have a high-profile wikipedia article on Manning, when at the time of the chat logs Manning was unknown to the world, is evidence that the world has changed quite a bit, so any worries about publicity in those logs I would give basically zero credence to at this point. She is now a public figure, and has the ability to make requests about her preferences; in the absence of hearing such a preference about a boyhood photo (or any photos for that matter), I think this is a complete non-issue.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:38, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- So if she doesn't say ouch, then we can assume she would be fine. Again, if someone other than you thinks there is the possibility that the article would be more conservative and neutral without a prominent picture juxtaposed with the subject expressing distress at thought of it, I think it would be worth exploring. I haven't heard any argument to keep the photo so far. I think people should consider the burden of proof here. __Elaqueate (talk) 20:56, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- Just so we're clear, you're arguing to delete the photo of Manning as a child, and no other photos, solely because of one quote from a chat log 3 years ago, on the off chance that this particular photo, or any photo of that time period in Manning's life, may somehow harm her, but that all other photos of Manning as a young man are fine. Seriously, that's all you've got? I think you need to do better than that...--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:16, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- The suggested change is too moderate and too small to be considered? That's new. I think the article is more unarguably neutral without that picture. I didn't think that was a controversial goal. You haven't explained why the picture is more important to have than to remove. __Elaqueate (talk) 22:14, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- Just so we're clear, you're arguing to delete the photo of Manning as a child, and no other photos, solely because of one quote from a chat log 3 years ago, on the off chance that this particular photo, or any photo of that time period in Manning's life, may somehow harm her, but that all other photos of Manning as a young man are fine. Seriously, that's all you've got? I think you need to do better than that...--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 21:16, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- So if she doesn't say ouch, then we can assume she would be fine. Again, if someone other than you thinks there is the possibility that the article would be more conservative and neutral without a prominent picture juxtaposed with the subject expressing distress at thought of it, I think it would be worth exploring. I haven't heard any argument to keep the photo so far. I think people should consider the burden of proof here. __Elaqueate (talk) 20:56, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- The direct quote was from chat logs from 3 years ago, while Manning was under considerable stress and going through a crisis of identity, so I don't think we should take anything from those logs as guidance on what to do here - that smacks way too much of overinterpretation of a primary source. The very fact that we have a high-profile wikipedia article on Manning, when at the time of the chat logs Manning was unknown to the world, is evidence that the world has changed quite a bit, so any worries about publicity in those logs I would give basically zero credence to at this point. She is now a public figure, and has the ability to make requests about her preferences; in the absence of hearing such a preference about a boyhood photo (or any photos for that matter), I think this is a complete non-issue.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:38, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- The direct quote in the article itself can be read as not desiring most of the personal photos here, or only not wanting the one of her as a child, as you have interpreted yourself. I don't share the idea that this is ridiculous oversensitivity. Are you saying it's impossible to think that this picture is unwanted or undesired based on the reading of the direct quote? __Elaqueate (talk) 19:23, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- You have yet to demonstrate in any way, shape or form that a photo of Manning as a child, provided by his family and part of the Save Private Manning Network official flickr account, is nonetheless harmful or not desired by the subject. There's an oversensitivity attached to this article which is frankly ridiculous at times.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:56, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- When I read the article, it's not on the same page, at all. The quote in question is at the bottom.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:55, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- I didn't make an assumption about her current relationship with her family or her involvement with releasing the photo. You want me to speculate here; according to our own sources the relationship is either happy or fraught. I am just saying that the quote and picture on the same page can currently be interpreted as an attempt at non-neutral provocation rather than simple illustration. I never claimed the picture is a copyright violation. I'm talking about how we choose to use it or not to appear broadly neutral. Some people will see a nice picture, others will see a rejoinder to the text. In any case, the child photo seems problematic in both of your readings of the quote (while we have an unsourceable okay for the other pic). __Elaqueate (talk) 17:44, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- If we have evidence that Manning hates that particular photo, then we should remove it - we regularly work with subjects to get photos they prefer. But so far, we don't have any such statement. Manning's statement above about plastered all over the press could be read to be "With me presenting as male" and not "Pictures of me as a boy child". Until we know, I see no reason to remove - esp given this photo came from his family from this set [16], and was made available for unrestricted use. Don't you think if Manning hated these photos, he would ask his family to not release them?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:53, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- Shorter read: I don't think it's illegal to have the picture there, I think the quote and picture are distracting together and it makes the article "less good". __Elaqueate (talk) 16:44, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- By itself, I see your argument. But it's not by itself, it's with a quote that the subject would rather be in prison for life than see photos like this one here. On first read, with photo and quote, it reads as arguably non-neutral. I think the quote is more germane to the subject's notability, and shouldn't be removed, and after reading the quote, the picture is distracting and casts the article somewhat badly. I don't think it's a major question of harm, but I think one option is both more neutral and appears more neutral. I am not against the use of children's pictures in biographies. But if Einstein was 1. Living, and 2. Expressed revulsion specifically at the picture in question, then I think it would be worth considering removal if the same material is repeatedly covered in the text. I understand that Wikipedia is under no absolute requirement to care about feelings, but it should be neutral in tone and structure and not give the appearance of being deliberately provocative. (And I wasn't challenging the military photo here, people seem happy with the original research that was done there for the moment.) __Elaqueate (talk) 16:44, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- I don't know. I think early childhood photos without as many gender markers are less likely to be problematic than later photos. Ananiujitha (talk) 21:26, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- I was thinking that, too. I just thought the quote can give the impression that we're editorializing instead of illustrating by inserting the picture just after the announcement. But I was curious what people thought. The stable version from the Aug 21st looks more neutral and conservative in this regard. I'm not completely comfortable assuming we look or are neutral enough here. Does the picture add more value than it risks? __Elaqueate (talk) 21:50, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- My opinion is to leave the picture in, it adds to the article as it shows Manning as a child in context with the text, we can not sugarcoat everything here see also WP:NOTCENSORED - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:56, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- How is having the picture not sugarcoating? What do you think the picture expresses? __Elaqueate (talk) 22:18, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- arg. Your questions are tiresome. The picture represents Manning as a child. This is an encyclopedia. Any filled-out biography I've ever seen has multiple pictures of the subject at all stages of their life. In this case, Manning was said to be small and frail for his age, and it helps the reader to understand by SHOWING them what Manning actually looked like (which to my mind, doesn't look that bad frankly). I'm generally an inclusionist, not a deletionist, so especially when we have a very high profile subject about whom SO much has been written, about his childhood, about his youth, about his gender identity, about his parents, about how he came to be who he is, the idea of suppressing a cute photo of him as a kid based on, really, no evidence at all, just boggles my mind, and then you attempt to turn it around and say "Justify why this picture MUST be included" - why don't you go around to the tens of thousands of other bios and start deleting pictures that people have found and sourced and uploaded and tell them "prove to me why we should have this photo". We should have it because pictures tell a thousand words, and people reading this will want to see what Manning looked like when he was a kid, it's a simple as that.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- I wasn't asking you questions here. If you don't want to discuss, don't discuss. I attempt to "turn it around" because the material should be justified to be included, something you weren't doing in your previous responses (which seem more about leaving things in despite concerns). Knowledgekid87 was the first one to answer in a way that attempted to justify the inclusion of the photo and I wanted to hear their reasons. I think both removing challengeable pictures in people's bios based on concerns of neutrality, and asking for justification for inclusion after deletion, are encouraged and normal actions on Wikipedia. You seem to be stating that these actions are inappropriate somehow. __Elaqueate (talk) 08:58, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
- As it stands, you say this posed picture indicates to you that Manning wasn't that frail, and looks smiling and happy. If it is placed here to put the lie to the text and sources about aspects of her past, then it is arguably not neutral, however cute. I wouldn't support having a picture of Kissinger smiling and joking next to text that described him as being in serious wartime negotiations. I'm not saying the picture is objectionable in and of itself, I'm saying (pending a chance for arguments for its inclusion) it makes the article less unarguably neutral. If the picture causes you to say that the text overstates her height issues, health issues, level of childhood happiness etc. then it is arguably not an appropriate image based on the text and sources describing her past. __Elaqueate (talk) 12:09, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
- I wasn't asking you questions here. If you don't want to discuss, don't discuss. I attempt to "turn it around" because the material should be justified to be included, something you weren't doing in your previous responses (which seem more about leaving things in despite concerns). Knowledgekid87 was the first one to answer in a way that attempted to justify the inclusion of the photo and I wanted to hear their reasons. I think both removing challengeable pictures in people's bios based on concerns of neutrality, and asking for justification for inclusion after deletion, are encouraged and normal actions on Wikipedia. You seem to be stating that these actions are inappropriate somehow. __Elaqueate (talk) 08:58, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
- arg. Your questions are tiresome. The picture represents Manning as a child. This is an encyclopedia. Any filled-out biography I've ever seen has multiple pictures of the subject at all stages of their life. In this case, Manning was said to be small and frail for his age, and it helps the reader to understand by SHOWING them what Manning actually looked like (which to my mind, doesn't look that bad frankly). I'm generally an inclusionist, not a deletionist, so especially when we have a very high profile subject about whom SO much has been written, about his childhood, about his youth, about his gender identity, about his parents, about how he came to be who he is, the idea of suppressing a cute photo of him as a kid based on, really, no evidence at all, just boggles my mind, and then you attempt to turn it around and say "Justify why this picture MUST be included" - why don't you go around to the tens of thousands of other bios and start deleting pictures that people have found and sourced and uploaded and tell them "prove to me why we should have this photo". We should have it because pictures tell a thousand words, and people reading this will want to see what Manning looked like when he was a kid, it's a simple as that.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:24, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- How is having the picture not sugarcoating? What do you think the picture expresses? __Elaqueate (talk) 22:18, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
- Were the photo captioned with his quote or even moved to Email to supervisor, recommended discharge, that would amount to baiting the subject of the article. Its placement in the Early life section is proper; such photos are common in our biographies. Further, given the context of Manning's quote (a discussion of her female identity with Lamo), I doubt that many readers will interpret "boy" in the restrictive sense of "a young male child" but would instead understand it to mean "a young male adult" or "a male of any age". The photo seems appropriate, is not intended to harass the subject of the article, and is unlikely to give the appearance of doing so. Let's keep it. -- ToE 13:55, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
- This is a reasonable defense, and one that doesn't reject that pictures could be challenged on issues of neutrality. I would suggest here that most biographies do not have childhood pictures, even when available, and I don't think a encyclopedia where every biography starts with a picture of the subject as a baby would be taken very seriously, even if it was more comprehensive that way. If it's neutral, it's fine. If it seeks to make a point, I think it should be evaluated against policy. __Elaqueate (talk) 14:17, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Manning's original notability is obviously around wikileaks. But it is clear they are developing additional notability in the context of being transgendered. The youngest photos do not shed much light on this subject, as the appearance was controlled by others, but the older-age photos ARE relevant to that discussion, because at that point it was showing how Manning chose to present themselves. Those photographs are clearly illustrative of how they chose to present themselves at that time period, which is relevant to the biographical information we have in this article. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:03, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Legal name
Question answered in FAQ - This is not a forum AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:00, 4 October 2013 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Is Chelsea his/her legal name? Even if we are to identify former Pvt. Manning with female pronouns, (s)he should still be listed under his/her legal name, should (s)he not? Dozzzzzzzzzing off (talk) 00:48, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
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- ^ a b Manning, Chelsea E. "The Next Stage of My Life", press release, August 22, 2013: "As I transition into this next phase of my life, I want everyone to know the real me. I am Chelsea Manning. I am a female. Given the way that I feel, and have felt since childhood, I want to begin hormone therapy as soon as possible. ... I also request that, starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun (except in official mail to the confinement facility). ... Thank you, Chelsea E. Manning"
- Stamp, Scott. "Bradley Manning: I want to live as a woman", NBC Today, August 22, 2013."
- Blake, Aaron and Tate, Julie. "Bradley Manning comes out as transgender: ‘I am a female’", The Washington Post, August 22, 2013.
- Coombs, David. "Additional Clarification on PVT Manning's Request", The Law Offices of David E. Coombs, 26 August 2013: "... PVT Manning, who has experienced gender dysphoria and gone through a process of gender questioning and exploration for years, announced that she would like to begin to be known publicly by the name of Chelsea Elizabeth Manning ..."