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::::::: You are free to disagree with my ideas and conclusions as it pertains to the content being discussed. But stop suggesting I'm acting incorrectly. I'm not obligated to agree with you, especially if I've thoughtfully elucidated my concerns so you'd get where I'm coming from. Start another RfC, poll more editors, reach a new consensus, etc, if you don't like where I'm arriving at. [[User:Isento|isento]] ([[User talk:Isento|talk]]) 01:42, 30 November 2020 (UTC) |
::::::: You are free to disagree with my ideas and conclusions as it pertains to the content being discussed. But stop suggesting I'm acting incorrectly. I'm not obligated to agree with you, especially if I've thoughtfully elucidated my concerns so you'd get where I'm coming from. Start another RfC, poll more editors, reach a new consensus, etc, if you don't like where I'm arriving at. [[User:Isento|isento]] ([[User talk:Isento|talk]]) 01:42, 30 November 2020 (UTC) |
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:::::::: And please stop bringing up other articles ([[WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS]]). I'm not in charge of potential errors elsewhere and cannot be expected to answer for them, especially when these pop-icon articles tend to attract overzealous fans who tend to lose sight of editorial judgement... [[User:Isento|isento]] ([[User talk:Isento|talk]]) 01:48, 30 November 2020 (UTC) |
Revision as of 01:48, 30 November 2020
Beyoncé has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Danim14 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Danim14, Andreabrisby. |
A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:10, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
Why did u do it Tech bot Hewoaq (talk) 22:32, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:38, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
- @Robotic Clone: Please stop adding the photo which has been nominated for a speedy deletion into the article. Thanks.--LeftiePete (talk) 12:37, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
- Actually, Robotic Clone has now cleared copyright for use of this image. However, there's something still not right. Robotic Clone – whose account was created a week ago – has now tried to make this the lede image nine times – and has been reverted by 5 different human editors, plus CommonsDelinker (initially because of copyvio issues; latterly because of Beyoncé's distracting costume). The only reason Robotic Clone has ever given for preferring this image over the existing one is that it's "more recent" (by one year). Robotic Clone uploaded the image, and in clearing copyright appears to have declared that they personally created it. (I don't have access to the permission correspondence: maybe someone who does could check it out.) This is starting to look like a case of WP:COI. GrindtXX (talk) 14:18, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
- Copyright clearance or no clearance, the image is more a depiction of the goofy costume she is wearing than a representation of Beyoncé. For this reason it is inappropriate as her infobox image. -- WikiPedant (talk) 16:35, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
Why are u so negative Hewoaq (talk) 22:27, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
Please restore it Hewoaq (talk) 22:29, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 4 November 2020
Queen Bey Camcam1234 (talk) 01:11, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. -ink&fables «talk» 11:10, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
Lead of the article / Infobox
The lead of Lady Gaga's article (a featured article) says: "Stefani Joanne Angelina Germanotta (/ˈstɛfəni ˌdʒɜːrməˈnɒtə/ STEF-ən-ee JUR-mə-NOT-ə) (born March 28, 1986), known professionally as Lady Gaga, is an American singer, songwriter, record producer, actress and businesswoman."
Beyoncé is also known for being a singer, songwriter, record producer, actress and businesswoman. If the lead of Lady Gaga's article is not seen as promotional, I do not understand why would adding "songwriter, record producer and businesswoman" to the lead of Beyoncé's article be so, esp. since Beyoncé definitely fulfills all those roles.
As explained in the article, Beyoncé has received co-writing credits for most of the songs recorded with Destiny's Child and nearly all the original songs she has recorded solo. Songwriting (regardless of songwriting controversies) is her main profession next to being a singer. I'd add the three titles mentioned above or at least "songwriter" to the lead, once again, regardless of songwriting controversies. Beyoncé was awarded for her songwriting, and in "May 2011, Billboard magazine listed Beyoncé at number 17 on their list of the Top 20 Hot 100 Songwriters for having co-written eight singles that hit number one on the Billboard Hot 100 chart."
Note (regarding the 'Songwriting credits' section): The article says: "The controversy surrounding her songwriting credits began with interviews in which she attributed herself as the songwriter for songs in which she was a co-writer or for which her contributions were marginal. In a cover story for Vanity Fair in 2005, she claimed to have "written" several number-one songs for Destiny's Child, contrary to the credits, which list her as a co-writer among others."
It is common for artists to say they "wrote a song" when they actually mean they "co-wrote" a song. They say they "wrote" the song for short, but in Beyoncé's case, it is assumed she was of bad faith... And it is not too uncommon for certain artists to receive a songwriting credit for "marginal" contributions. For these reasons, I am questioning the relevance of parts of that section. qedk, TruthGuardians, MaJic, GiuliaZB, JG66, BD2412 what do you think?
- EDIT: I now see that consensus was recently reached to remove "songwriter" from the lead, but that does not apply to the Infobox. Israell (talk) 00:52, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
I see that an editor added "record producer", which I approve. Israell (talk) 21:14, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
The lead sentence of Madonna's article also has the same problem. Here's the discussion: [1]. I'd add those professions back myself, but I'd rather some consensus is reached. Israell (talk) 21:27, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
- There was a consensus of "no" about this earlier --> Talk:Beyoncé/Archive_13#Should_she_be_defined_as_a_songwriter_in_the_lead? isento (talk) 22:26, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
Relevant guideline: In general, a position, activity, or role should not be included in the lead paragraph if: a) the role is not otherwise discussed in the lead (per MOS:LEAD, don't tease the reader), b) the role is not significantly covered in the body of the article, or, c) the role is auxiliary to a main profession of the person ... (Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#cite_note-1) isento (talk) 22:30, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
isento, consensus applied to the lead, not the Infobox. Songwriting is definitely one of Beyoncé's main professions, and that is well-documented. As explained in the article, Beyoncé has received co-writing credits for most of the songs recorded with Destiny's Child and nearly all the original songs she has recorded solo. Songwriting (regardless of songwriting controversies) is her main profession next to being a singer. The Infobox must therefore display it.
"Barely does production, and definitely not known for it." Not true. Barely? Beyoncé produced all of her studio albums, all of her live albums, most of her singles, etc. Beyoncé is quite known for production (song production, executive production, concerts/live album production, etc.), it's well-documented, and she has her own production company, Parkwood Entertainment. Some sources out of many more: [1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18]. Israell (talk) 00:40, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- ^ https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/267215/beyonce-the-billboard-cover-story
- ^ https://www.revolt.tv/2016/4/28/20815829/meet-jonny-coffer-the-secret-weapon-behind-beyonce-s-freedom
- ^ https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/pop/7350423/beyonce-lemonade-collaborators-making-of
- ^ https://www.livedesignonline.com/strictly-fx-provides-effects-for-beyonce-s-current-tour
- ^ https://www.bet.com/music/2020/07/31/beyonce-black-is-king-takeaways.html
- ^ https://www.ctvnews.ca/entertainment/beyonce-partners-with-topshop-to-launch-athletic-wear-company-next-year-1.2072589/comments-7.572609
- ^ https://www.ctvnews.ca/entertainment/beyonce-partners-with-topshop-to-launch-athletic-wear-company-next-year-1.2072589/comments-7.572609
- ^ https://www.npr.org/sections/therecord/2014/03/17/258155902/how-sweet-it-is-to-be-loved-by-you-the-beyhive
- ^ https://www.unitedbypop.com/music/beyonce-legend-35/
- ^ https://www.ecuadortimes.net/beyonce-premieres-tomorrow-in-a-documentary-about-her-life/
- ^ https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/music/2020/07/31/black-king-beyonce-lion-king-jayz-blue-ivy-rumi-sir/5552517002/
- ^ https://variety.com/2020/digital/news/beyonce-black-is-king-disney-plus-release-date-1234692505/
- ^ https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/beyonces-knowing-ethnic-splendor-in-black-is-king
- ^ https://www.ctvnews.ca/entertainment/labrinth-on-working-with-beyonce-she-s-a-perfectionist-1.4513557
- ^ https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/apr/29/beyonce-lemonade-jay-z-explainer
- ^ https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/arts-and-life/entertainment/music/beyonce-shows-personal-side--in-concert-dvd-110080489.html
- ^ http://www.cmt.com/news/1765458/lessons-from-beyonces-daddy-lessons/
- ^ https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/beyonce-spirit-new-song-lion-king-album-soundtrack-release-a8998141.html
- So as I see it, and I’m sure there may be more experienced editors, the info box must match what’s in the article. If consensus was reached to remove “song writer” from the lead, that doesn’t necessarily mean to remove it from info box, especially if mentioned throughout the article as being a songwriter. TruthGuardians (talk) 15:04, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- Also, regarding a comment written by isento on the linked archived talk page, it is not true that an artist that has exclusively co-written songs is not a songwriter but only a co-writer or "part-song-writer." The article on songwriting makes it very clear co-writers incl. top-liners are indeed songwriters. Israell (talk) 15:06, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- The article does not make that clear. In fact, the only source supporting that section does not even use the term "songwriter" in its prose. The purpose of the infobox is to summarize the essentials of the article. It appears that most sources that discuss her songwriting meaningfully are sources questioning it, while those that don't are merely industry awards or accolades with no insight into it. isento (talk) 18:59, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- I am not going to sift thru all those citations (WP:REFBOMB) to verify your claims about her association with production (please quote relevant text). But in response to your claim in the recent edit summary, her songwriting is as well documented as it is well disputed. isento (talk) 17:56, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- There is no discussion in the article of her record production. There are credits in album articles, but there is no insight into what she actually does. And she does not appear to do it professionally, say as being paid to produce for another artist or projects other than her own, which is what being a producer suggests or entails, I believe. isento (talk) 18:01, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- Perhaps we can reach a compromise and use Musician instead of songwriter or producer. A musician can do a variety of things but not be defined necessarily by one of those things. There is discussion of her singing and musicianship in a broad sense, so I would support "Singer and musician". isento (talk) 18:04, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- Beyoncé is credited for co-writing nearly all of her solo songs as well as most of the Destiny's Child songs. Beyoncé currently has 346 songwriting credits on ASCAP. Here's the list: https://www.ascap.com/repertory#ace/writer/341826274/KNOWLES%20BEYONCE%20GISSELLE. Beyoncé Knowles is therefore a songwriter. I am aware of the controversy, the allegations, but that does not negate the fact she has co-written the vast majority of her songs. It is possible certain songs were written and she barely modified them, but that does not mean it is always the case. It is not up to Wikipedia to speculate and determine if Beyoncé Knowles is a "real" songwriter or not. People may have their opinion, but the fact she has 346 songwriting credits on ASCAP is verifiable. For instance, some people may not consider certain singers "real singers" or "real vocalists", but Wikipedia will still call them "singers" and "vocalists."
- Perhaps we can reach a compromise and use Musician instead of songwriter or producer. A musician can do a variety of things but not be defined necessarily by one of those things. There is discussion of her singing and musicianship in a broad sense, so I would support "Singer and musician". isento (talk) 18:04, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- The article does not make that clear. In fact, the only source supporting that section does not even use the term "songwriter" in its prose. The purpose of the infobox is to summarize the essentials of the article. It appears that most sources that discuss her songwriting meaningfully are sources questioning it, while those that don't are merely industry awards or accolades with no insight into it. isento (talk) 18:59, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- Also, regarding a comment written by isento on the linked archived talk page, it is not true that an artist that has exclusively co-written songs is not a songwriter but only a co-writer or "part-song-writer." The article on songwriting makes it very clear co-writers incl. top-liners are indeed songwriters. Israell (talk) 15:06, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- Britney has 72 song credits on BMI [2], much less than Beyoncé, and she is credited as a songwriter on Wikipedia. Mandy Moore, Debbie Gibson, Nicki Minaj, Rihanna, Lil' Kim, Foxy Brown, Ava Max, Dua Lipa, Lily Allen, Christina Aguilera, P!nk, Solange Knowles (Beyoncé's sister), Farrah Franklin (formerly of Destiny's Child), Kim Petras and many more recording artists on Wikipedia are defined as songwriters in the lead of their articles or at least the infobox of said articles. Once again, Wikipedia is about WP:V, and it is not up to us editors to make a judgement call on whether or not Beyoncé is indeed a songwriter in spite of verifiable registered ASCAP songwriting credits. Israell (talk) 20:16, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
As for the sources I've listed earlier, they pertain to her song production, concert/live album production, soundtrack album production, movie production, etc. Israell (talk) 20:10, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
- It is up to editors to make judgement calls. All the ASCAP source proves is she's been credited. It is not an independent source. isento (talk) 18:55, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
@Israell: Thanks for taking this up and good luck with it! @Isento: There was no consensus reached previously so I don't know where you got that from. As I have previously said, you cherry-picked negative comments from completely random musicians instead of the larger number of positive comments from her actual collaborators that fully explained her songwriting ability and style. "It appears that most sources that discuss her songwriting meaningfully are sources questioning it" and "And she does not appear to do it professionally, say as being paid to produce for another artist or projects other than her own, which is what being a producer suggests or entails" are just more of your unsubstantiated and incorrect assertions. I once again hope you act correctly and do the right thing for this section. Bgkc4444 (talk) 19:43, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
- Eight people said "no". Two said "yes". Sounds like a consensus to me. isento (talk) 21:27, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
- Polling is not a substitute for discussion. Bgkc4444 (talk) 21:37, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
- I am not disputing the relevancy of songwriting credits. I am saying there were valid objections from as many, if not more, editors than you two in the previous discussion, which you are dismissing on the technicality that it did not specify the infobox. Unless I am mistaken, the heading of this section includes "lead", does it not? isento (talk) 01:24, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- I think the clear controversy surrounding the songwriting credits -- non-independent-source testimonials notwithstanding -- demands this discussion be more nuanced than what you're providing it. This is an encyclopedia, not merely an office of public records. Articles are to be based largely on third-party sources, and while there are industry accolades, passing mentions of her as a songwriter, and organizational records, there are also more in-depth-coverage articles focusing squarely on her songwriting and questions surrounding it. Negative comments were not "cherry-picked from random musicians". If you do not think that questioning the idea of her as a songwriter even merits discussion, then you are not respecting the fact that there is a reasonable allowance for speculation, suggestion, and personal knowledge in talk page discussions (Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#Central_points). isento (talk) 01:39, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- You are free to disagree with my ideas and conclusions as it pertains to the content being discussed. But stop suggesting I'm acting incorrectly. I'm not obligated to agree with you, especially if I've thoughtfully elucidated my concerns so you'd get where I'm coming from. Start another RfC, poll more editors, reach a new consensus, etc, if you don't like where I'm arriving at. isento (talk) 01:42, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
- And please stop bringing up other articles (WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS). I'm not in charge of potential errors elsewhere and cannot be expected to answer for them, especially when these pop-icon articles tend to attract overzealous fans who tend to lose sight of editorial judgement... isento (talk) 01:48, 30 November 2020 (UTC)