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Biography assessment rating comment
The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. --KenWalker | Talk 05:41, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Why is wikipedia lying?
This article is soo biased. That's crazy that you guys thinknshe was lying about the death. Thats what wacky conservapigs say, and wikipedia is promoting it. Labidalove (talk) 20:11, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry, I've read it carefully and that's just not the case. The article states unequivocally that Becky Bell "was an American woman who died as a result of a back-alley abortion in 1988". It describes what happened to her and quotes her mother directly, including her description of the harassment she and her husband suffered from anti-abortion campaigners when they spoke to other teenagers about their daughter's death. It certainly mentions the attempts by certain people to cast doubt on Becky Bell's story, and so it should - those attempts are part of the story too. Wikipedia just reports things that have already been reported. It doesn't take sides. Karenjc 20:25, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
THIS STORY IS SO BIASED
If anyone is interested in the Real Becky Bell Story, please do a google search and read all that is available and make your own opinion. My opinion, as her best friend prior to her death, supports the coroner's report from her autopsy. She did NOT have an illegal/unsterile abortion. She died from complications to pneumonia. Her parents have been used by the women's rights activists in a time when they needed counseling. Please someone re-write this page to AT LEAST include the other half of the story which is highly regarded in the medical community as well as her dearest friends. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rememberbecky (talk • contribs) 17:53, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- I added info from Bell's autopsy report and a quote from New York Times regarding use of Becky Bell as a "poster girl" to balance previously unbalanced article. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 21:54, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
Unreliable sources tag
Why was a tag regarding unreliable sources added just after multiple reliable sources added? Can the person who added this tag specify which sources are of concern? I did notice some of the older sources are now dead links.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 17:50, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, a number of unreliable sources were just added. As a result, the article is now largely reliant upon unreliable sources such as an op-ed from an anti-abortion advocacy organization, an anti-abortion advocacy website, an anti-abortion advocacy book (and NOW, but that source is dead anyway and doesn't seem to be cited for much article content). Is there actually a real source available anywhere for these supposed claims from the doctors? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:16, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
- There seems to be a serious misunderstanding about what constitutes a reliable source, and more generally about the way Wikipedia articles are meant to be sourced and written. Here's quick primer: 60 Minutes and news pieces from the New York Times are generally reliable sources. Partisan pro-life websites are generally not reliable sources, nor are opinion written by anti-abortion activists. The latter two may, in some cases, be useable provided they are clearly marked as opinion, but it is completely inappropriate to use partisan websites or opinion pieces as sources for basic facts or to present their claims using Wikipedia's voice. I've likewise removed the citation to the National Organization of Women, and rewritten the article to reflect the content of existing independent, reliable sources such as the New York Times and 60 Minutes - this is a basic requirement for content on this website. MastCell Talk 19:38, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
- I did recent edits - the less reliable sources seem to be mostly older sources. The autopsy info comes from:The Baltimore Sun, CBS News-60 Minutes, Cleveland Plain Dealer (as quoted by LifeNews. LifeNews is a pro-life newsapaer, but they seem reliable enough not blatantly make up quotes from another newspapers. Still, better to have actual Plain Dealer article, so contacting http://www.cleveland.com/plaindealer/ regarding old archives. The article in question is from 1991 - not online anymore, but archive will be available)
- The Prolife book was only used for an anti-abortion response to use of Bell's story to repeal parental consent laws. Book seems appropriate source for an anti-abotion response. The neutral source for the Erica Richardson connection to Bell was Baltimore Sun article.
- I thought the long NARAL Pro-choice America quote seemed potentially unreliable (and from dead link and non-neutral source) but was hesitant to delete it because quote so interesting and highlights bitter debate over abortion mentioned by reliable source New York Times.
- Prior to my edits, the only reliable neutral source I saw cited was the New York Times article, the rest of the article was previously based on sources with clear bias toward abortion rights advocacy. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 20:13, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
- The Baltimore Sun piece is an op-ed from an obviously unreliable individual, and if that claim comes from the Plain Dealer, we should be able to find and cite the Plain Dealer article. The suggestion that LifeNews has too much integrity to run false claims is utterly laughable. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:12, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
- The Baltimore Sun is the largest paper in MD. It's not a biased source. The author of the article may be anti-abortion, but he's not writing for an anti-abortion website. His interview with autopsy doctor is being reported in reliable neutral news source. I don't get it. There was (and still is) so much info from abortion rights advocates included in article that's apparently never been questioned, even though it was only reported by abortion rights sources. My only claim about LifeNews is that they don't seem like they'd be reckless enough to make up a quote from thin air and attribute it to a real newspaper. We should be able to get the actual Plain Dealer article though. I'm concerned about bias on this article and NPOV. I do not believe my editing is biased. I'm actually the one who hunted down the 60 Minutes episode and added it as a ref. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 21:33, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
- The Baltimore Sun source is an opinion piece. That should be clear to you from its tone, but in case not, it helpfully notes that its author is employed by "Human Life International, an anti-abortion group in Gaithersburg". Opinion pieces may be useable to demonstrate the views of their authors, with proper attribution, but are totally unsuitable as sources for factual claims and should not be presented in Wikipedia's voice. If you're at all unclear on this, please read WP:RSOPINION. The issue is not the size or reliability of the Baltimore Sun, but the proper role of factual vs. opinion pieces.
LifeNews is not a reliable source for pretty much anything. It's definitely not a reliable source for factual claims. Again, this should be obvious to you—we're trying to write a serious, reputable reference work. Do you think such works rely on LifeNews for their facts? But if appeals to your common sense don't work, then again, please read WP:RSOPINION.
Finally, your edits grossly violate our policies on neutrality and undue weight. All of the independent, reliable sources make clear that Bell died after a botched illegal abortion. The New York Times describes Bell as "a 17-year-old Indianapolis girl who died in 1988 from a botched abortion because she was afraid to get her parents' consent". 60 Minutes states that Bell "sought out a back-alley abortion instead—and died from complications". The only sources which dispute her cause of death are partisan, low-quality anti-abortion websites and opinion pieces. It would be bad enough to falsely "balance" these two viewpoints as if they were equally supported by reliable sources, but you've gone way farther, by actually enshrining the dubious, partisan claims as fact. That's poor editing, and it violates essentially every fundamental content policy we've got. I'd encourage you to revert your edits, or at least to reflect on WP:RSOPINION and the need to base our articles on the best-available independent, reliable sources. MastCell Talk 01:36, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
- The Baltimore Sun source is an opinion piece. That should be clear to you from its tone, but in case not, it helpfully notes that its author is employed by "Human Life International, an anti-abortion group in Gaithersburg". Opinion pieces may be useable to demonstrate the views of their authors, with proper attribution, but are totally unsuitable as sources for factual claims and should not be presented in Wikipedia's voice. If you're at all unclear on this, please read WP:RSOPINION. The issue is not the size or reliability of the Baltimore Sun, but the proper role of factual vs. opinion pieces.
- The Baltimore Sun is the largest paper in MD. It's not a biased source. The author of the article may be anti-abortion, but he's not writing for an anti-abortion website. His interview with autopsy doctor is being reported in reliable neutral news source. I don't get it. There was (and still is) so much info from abortion rights advocates included in article that's apparently never been questioned, even though it was only reported by abortion rights sources. My only claim about LifeNews is that they don't seem like they'd be reckless enough to make up a quote from thin air and attribute it to a real newspaper. We should be able to get the actual Plain Dealer article though. I'm concerned about bias on this article and NPOV. I do not believe my editing is biased. I'm actually the one who hunted down the 60 Minutes episode and added it as a ref. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 21:33, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
- The Baltimore Sun piece is an op-ed from an obviously unreliable individual, and if that claim comes from the Plain Dealer, we should be able to find and cite the Plain Dealer article. The suggestion that LifeNews has too much integrity to run false claims is utterly laughable. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:12, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
- The Baltimore Sun would not publish quotes from a supposed interview with doctor who performed Bell’s autopsy, without verifying quotes with doctor. The Sun is a reliable source. In my opinion, your edits seemed to not represent NPOV. I’m in the process of getting the Plain Dealer article quoted in LifeNews article, as I agree that would be better as reference. As I said In reply to your comment on my talk page, I agree that it may be appropriate to add more info from the reliable sources we currently have (and it would be great if we could locate more reliable sources) That was not the reason for my revert. I reverted edit because the edit deleted large amounts of information properly sourced by 60 Minutes, New York Times, and The Baltimore Sun. When we look at all the reliable sources available, I think it's clear there is dispute regarding the circumstances of Bell's death and we should neutrally present that on Wikipedia. I think it would be best if any deletions of reliably sourced info was explained on talk page first.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 01:54, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
- You keep repeating the same things, which are either untrue or irrelevant. I didn't remove the Times and 60 Minutes; in fact, I expanded their use substantially, as anyone can see by counting the references. We agree that these are high-quality sources, so I'm mystified as to why you reverted to your version, which denigrates them in favor of anti-abortion websites and opinion pieces.
Secondly, you keep harping on the reliability of the Baltimore Sun. I'm not sure how many times I can say this before it sinks in, but opinion pieces are not suitable sources for factual claims. It doesn't matter if the opinion piece appears in the Baltimore Sun or the New York Times. You can't use them the way you're using them. Common sense should tell you that, but our policies do as well. Show me a reliable source that disputes Bell's cause of death. Not an opinion piece or an anti-abortion screed, but an actual independent, reliable source according to this site's definitions (and not according to your personal ideas about reliability). MastCell Talk 01:59, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
- You keep repeating the same things, which are either untrue or irrelevant. I didn't remove the Times and 60 Minutes; in fact, I expanded their use substantially, as anyone can see by counting the references. We agree that these are high-quality sources, so I'm mystified as to why you reverted to your version, which denigrates them in favor of anti-abortion websites and opinion pieces.
- The Baltimore Sun would not publish quotes from a supposed interview with doctor who performed Bell’s autopsy, without verifying quotes with doctor. The Sun is a reliable source. In my opinion, your edits seemed to not represent NPOV. I’m in the process of getting the Plain Dealer article quoted in LifeNews article, as I agree that would be better as reference. As I said In reply to your comment on my talk page, I agree that it may be appropriate to add more info from the reliable sources we currently have (and it would be great if we could locate more reliable sources) That was not the reason for my revert. I reverted edit because the edit deleted large amounts of information properly sourced by 60 Minutes, New York Times, and The Baltimore Sun. When we look at all the reliable sources available, I think it's clear there is dispute regarding the circumstances of Bell's death and we should neutrally present that on Wikipedia. I think it would be best if any deletions of reliably sourced info was explained on talk page first.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 01:54, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
- Do you honestly think someone could submit an "opinion piece" to the Baltimore Sun saying something like "in my opinion, the doc who performed Bell's autopsy said blah, blah, blah." There's no way The Sun would include quotes from that doctor, in such a controversial story, without confirming those quotes. Please review edits. You deleted substantial information form 60 Minutes regarding use of Bell's story by the Feminist Majority Foundation and in ads run by Planned Parenthood. You also deleted quotes from New York Times which referred to Bell as "poster girl" in debate over abortion. You added info from 60 Minutes but stated it as undebated fact that Bell had a "back ally abortion" and that it killed her, despite the debate over this by other reliable sources. Also, 60 Minutes is my added ref. Just to be clear, I'm not the biased one. I hunted down and found that particular ref knowing it would support Bell's parent's account, and feel strongly that account should be included for NPOV. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 02:18, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
- 60 Minutes states as undebated fact that Bell died after a botched "back-alley abortion". The New York Times states as undebated fact that Bell died after a "botched abortion". So yes, I stated it as an undebated fact, because we're supposed to respect reliable sources and convey their content honestly and accurately. You didn't answer my question: what specific reliable sources dispute these facts?
Secondly, WP:RSOPINION states very clearly that opinion pieces in mainstream newspapers (like the Baltimore Sun) "may be considered reliable for statements as to their author's opinion, but not for statements asserted as fact". Could you explain why you insist on ignoring this unequivocal policy? MastCell Talk 04:09, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
- 60 Minutes states as undebated fact that Bell died after a botched "back-alley abortion". The New York Times states as undebated fact that Bell died after a "botched abortion". So yes, I stated it as an undebated fact, because we're supposed to respect reliable sources and convey their content honestly and accurately. You didn't answer my question: what specific reliable sources dispute these facts?
- Do you honestly think someone could submit an "opinion piece" to the Baltimore Sun saying something like "in my opinion, the doc who performed Bell's autopsy said blah, blah, blah." There's no way The Sun would include quotes from that doctor, in such a controversial story, without confirming those quotes. Please review edits. You deleted substantial information form 60 Minutes regarding use of Bell's story by the Feminist Majority Foundation and in ads run by Planned Parenthood. You also deleted quotes from New York Times which referred to Bell as "poster girl" in debate over abortion. You added info from 60 Minutes but stated it as undebated fact that Bell had a "back ally abortion" and that it killed her, despite the debate over this by other reliable sources. Also, 60 Minutes is my added ref. Just to be clear, I'm not the biased one. I hunted down and found that particular ref knowing it would support Bell's parent's account, and feel strongly that account should be included for NPOV. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 02:18, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
- Asked and answered, but here goes again. I’m not reporting, nor am I particularly interested in that author’s “opinion on abortion,”. I am interested in direct quotes from that author's interview with the doc who performed Bell’s autopsy. Please answer why you think The Baltimore Sun would report direct quotes from such an interview, absent verification. Also, please rewatch the 60 Minutes episode, they do not state the back ally abortion as an undisputed fact, but do certainly present evidence to support it, which I agree we should include. The NY Times article doesn't address the validity of the claim in any manner and does not mention autopsy and is more focused on use of Bell and Jessen as "poster girls". Text regarding Bell's use as a "poster girl" and Planned Parenthood ads was inexplicably deleted, apparently because it doesn't support the abortion rights narrative, despite being reliably sourced. Prior to my edits, all but one of the refs were from abortion rights advocacy groups, yet unreliable source tag only added when content no longer exclusively supported their narrative (??). Serious concerns regarding bias on this article. I will likely wait until I obtain the Plain Dealer article before editing again. Please review WP:NPOV. The recent deletions do not address the bias concerns raised earlier on this talk page. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 18:25, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
- Newspapers typically have different standards for editing and fact-checking op-eds as compared to factual news pieces. That's why we treat op-eds differently than factual news pieces. Your personal faith in a particular op-ed does not override our site-wide sourcing guidelines. As to the 60 Minutes and New York Times pieces, I linked and quoted them in my previous post so that you couldn't deny the obvious: they both present Bell's abortion as fact. MastCell Talk 05:14, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
- Asked and answered, but here goes again. I’m not reporting, nor am I particularly interested in that author’s “opinion on abortion,”. I am interested in direct quotes from that author's interview with the doc who performed Bell’s autopsy. Please answer why you think The Baltimore Sun would report direct quotes from such an interview, absent verification. Also, please rewatch the 60 Minutes episode, they do not state the back ally abortion as an undisputed fact, but do certainly present evidence to support it, which I agree we should include. The NY Times article doesn't address the validity of the claim in any manner and does not mention autopsy and is more focused on use of Bell and Jessen as "poster girls". Text regarding Bell's use as a "poster girl" and Planned Parenthood ads was inexplicably deleted, apparently because it doesn't support the abortion rights narrative, despite being reliably sourced. Prior to my edits, all but one of the refs were from abortion rights advocacy groups, yet unreliable source tag only added when content no longer exclusively supported their narrative (??). Serious concerns regarding bias on this article. I will likely wait until I obtain the Plain Dealer article before editing again. Please review WP:NPOV. The recent deletions do not address the bias concerns raised earlier on this talk page. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 18:25, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
I discovered this page: [1] which cites the CPD article (from ref 258) extensively and quotes from the article. The year given is 1990, not 1991.--Auric talk 19:42, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
- The page you discovered is from justfacts.com, a website with a self-described "conservative/libertarian" viewpoint run by an individual who published a book which cites "history, archaeology, and physics to genetics, microbiology, and more to compellingly and meticulously demonstrate the truthfulness of the Bible." This is not an independent, reliable source. Look, if you want to cite the Plain Dealer article then you need to actually read it first. You need to actually read the sources you cite. It's not complicated; this is the absolute rock-bottom bare-minimum standard for editing Wikipedia, yet we're repeatedly falling short of it here. MastCell Talk 05:09, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
- Are you suggesting that they have altered the quotes in the cites in some way?--Auric talk 21:31, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
- No. I'm suggesting that highly partisan websites don't make good sources. I'm suggesting that if everyone is hell-bent on citing this Plain Dealer article, then someone needs to actually read the article first. I'm a little frustrated that these basic Wikipedian concepts are being treated as foreign and suspect. MastCell Talk 16:35, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
- Are you suggesting that they have altered the quotes in the cites in some way?--Auric talk 21:31, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
Title of article
Isn't it more usual to call articles like this "Death of..."? I don't have a strong opinion, but it just seems that that's how it's normally done.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 20:41, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
- The majority of those articles are about people who have been killed or murdered in some fashion. I'm not sure that this would be appropriate here.--Auric talk 21:34, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, good point. Like I said, I don't have a strong opinion.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 21:41, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
Archived version of dead link now removed from article
In case anyone wants to work with the MSFC material that was recently deleted from the article, here's a link to the archived version of the page from around the accessdate given in the citation: [2]. I have no opinion on inclusion or exclusion of the material as of now.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 16:01, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
Newspaper sources
It's been interesting to see the focus on the Plain Dealer article, which no one has been able to track down and which appears to be cited solely in the context of anti-abortion websites. Aside from the obvious problems with citing a source that no one has actually seen or read, it seems to me that the underlying approach to sourcing here is wrong. Good writing (especially on controversial topics) starts with an effort to find the best available sources, and then to follow where they lead. (In contrast, we're currently proceeding by identifying which sources are used by partisan anti-abortion websites and then focusing on getting those sources into the article regardless of whether anyone has actually read them).
In the interest of improving the article's sourcing, I did a quick search using my library's database tool for news articles in mainstream, non-partisan newspapers (aka reliable sources) covering this topic. I avoided opinion pieces, letters to the editor, and other such lower-quality sources and focused solely on news pieces. I came up with the following:
- Kelly, Morgan (January 20, 2006). "'THESE LAWS KILL': Notification rule drives girls to back alleys, pro-choice activist says". Charleston Gazette.
Karen Bell's 17-year-old daughter Becky got an illegal abortion in 1988 and later died. Their home state of Indiana made girls get their parents' permission before they could have a safe abortion, Bell said during a Statehouse press conference.
- Derringer, Alan (July 19, 1992). "Teen's death propels parents into abortion battle". Dallas Morning News.
Before 17-year-old Becky Bell died from an illegal abortion, her parents led an unconcerned, apolitical existence in a middle-class suburb of Indianapolis... The coroner has said he believes that Becky or someone else induced an abortion with an unsterilized instrument—something like a knitting needle or piece of wire.
- James, Rich (June 27, 1990). "NEW RULING REKINDLES ABORTION DEBATE". Post-Tribune.
Becky was a vivacious, blue-eyed, blonde when she died of an infection after self-aborting in September 1988.
- Dettmer, Jamie (May 5, 1992). "Abortion's combat zone". The Times.
(Bell) was too ashamed or too anxious about causing disappointment to turn to her parents for help in ending a pregnancy. Her death, the result of a botched illegal termination, possibly self-induced, devastated her family and friends and set Bill and Karen Bell on a journey across America to argue against laws requiring minors to gain parental consent before terminating a pregnancy.
- Chiang, Harriet (January 22, 1996). "Indiana Dad in S.F. to Tell How Abortion Law Led to Death". San Francisco Chronicle.
(Bell) never gave her parents cause to worry except when she turned cartwheels down the street to raise money for the humane society. But at 17, the tall, slender, blond girl died in 1988 after a botched illegal abortion.
- Beach, Mark (September 29, 1991). "Daughter's death leads to an odyssey". Sunday News (Lancaster, PA).
Becky Bell died from an illegal abortion in 1988 in Indianapolis, Ind.
- Carlson, Margaret (July 9, 1990). "Abortion's Hardest Cases". TIME.
They (the Bells) did not know that there was any such thing as a parental-consent law. But there is such a law in Indiana, where the Bells live and where their daughter Becky, 17, died after an illegal abortion.
I've read each of these articles (in contrast, despite a concerted effort, I was unable to find the legendary Plain Dealer article). I'm not saying that we need to use all of these sources, but there are quite a few out there, most of which are not incorporated into the article. I've quoted from the articles above because there's currently a dispute over how much weight to attach to contention, by anti-abortion advocates, that Bell did not in fact have an abortion. As I think should be obvious, independent reliable sources are virtually unanimous in stating clearly and unequivocally that she died of complications of an illegal abortion. While the anti-abortion groups' claim to the contrary may be notable enough to mention, we need to respect the undue-weight clause and avoid misleading the reader about its degree of support in actual reliable sources. MastCell Talk 17:53, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
- This is an interesting problem. I checked in NewsBank, which has the Plain Dealer back to 1989. They list dozens of articles by Frolik, but none with this title, and none from 1990 that mention abortion, although he wrote on the subject in both 1989 and 1991 through the present day. It's quite a pancake. It's hard to believe that someone would just make up an article, but somehow this one's not indexed where it should be.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 18:04, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
- Like you, I find it difficult to believe that the article is a fabrication, but it's odd that it's so elusive. MastCell Talk 18:32, 21 April 2014 (UTC) ADDENDUM: One thought: when I looked on NewsBank, I thought it indicated that it only covers the Plain Dealer back to June 1991, which would explain why the 1990 article doesn't turn up. But you mentioned you were able to see articles going back to 1989? It's confusing, not least of all because NewsBank is so clunky. MastCell Talk 19:01, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
- Aha! The two from 1989 were from different papers, so it's possible that the Plain Dealer in NewsBank only goes back to 1991. That's what I get for not checking carefully, and it would explain a lot:
- SKINHEADS STARTED OFF RACIALLY TOLERANT - BUT MOVEMENT HEADS INCREASINGLY TOWARD FUTURE FILLED WITH HATE
- THE SEATTLE TIMES - May 21, 1989
- Author: JOE FROLIK
- SKINHEADS SPREAD CLENCH-FISTED FEARS
- Times-Picayune, The (New Orleans, LA) - May 14, 1989
- Author: JOE FROLIK Newhouse News Service
- — alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 20:02, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
- OK, that makes sense. Too bad; the article is just before the date cut-off for online access. At this point I think that if anyone feels very strongly that this source is essential, then it's up to them to locate a copy. Personally, I don't think it's worth it—if the excerpts from the justfacts.com site are to be believed, the Plain Dealer article says pretty much what the other (readily available) sources say: the coroner found that Bell died of complications of an illegal abortion, while anti-abortion activists claim she never had an abortion. But I'm willing to discuss the source if someone can credibly claim to have laid eyes upon it. MastCell Talk 20:22, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
- The actual newspaper's site only goes back to 2007: [3]. I think this is going to be a case for microfilm, which is too much trouble for me to deal with. Like you say, let someone lay hands on it and then we'll talk.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 21:16, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
- I'm in the process of getting the Plain Dealer article. MastCell, do any of the articles you found above get into the autopsy report? Specifically, additional statements from the doctors actually involved in the autopsy would be good to have. Seems most articles on Becky Bell don't go past reporting autopsy listed cause of death as septic abortion & pneumonia, but ignoring that abortion, as used on a medical report, does not necessarily mean induced abortion, and that miscarriage would also be listed on a medical report or autopsy as an abortion. The only sources I've seen that get into statements from the actual autopsy drs were 60 Minutes, The Baltimore Sun and Plain Dealer (if the quotes reported elsewhere and attributed to Plain Dealer are accurate). I actually don't plan on editing again until after obtaining the Plain Dealer article, but did look over current version of this page and I don't really see the relevance of John C. Willke's bizarre statements on rape to Becky Bell. Seems this has nothing to do with Becky Bell but does belong on the John C Wilike page. Actually, I think what Willke has to say here is pretty much all irrelevant, because he didn't perform the autopsy on Bell, but since he is quoted on 60 Minutes discussing Bell, I can see argument for including those quotes from 60 Minutes. But I don't think his bizarre views on rape belong on the Becky Bell page. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 02:24, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
- The actual newspaper's site only goes back to 2007: [3]. I think this is going to be a case for microfilm, which is too much trouble for me to deal with. Like you say, let someone lay hands on it and then we'll talk.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 21:16, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
- OK, that makes sense. Too bad; the article is just before the date cut-off for online access. At this point I think that if anyone feels very strongly that this source is essential, then it's up to them to locate a copy. Personally, I don't think it's worth it—if the excerpts from the justfacts.com site are to be believed, the Plain Dealer article says pretty much what the other (readily available) sources say: the coroner found that Bell died of complications of an illegal abortion, while anti-abortion activists claim she never had an abortion. But I'm willing to discuss the source if someone can credibly claim to have laid eyes upon it. MastCell Talk 20:22, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
Fact-checking on op-ed pieces
I thought I'd start a new section since the up-page discussion seems to have gone in a different direction. The question being addressed is whether one can expect reputable newspapers to fact-check op-eds. It seems at least for the NYT the answer is no, at least in 1995:
- Behind the Times: Inside the New New York Times. University of Chicago Press. 15 October 1995. pp. 280–. ISBN 978-0-226-14472-6.
The volume of manuscripts and the unrelenting deadlines left no time for thorough fact-checking
I couldn't find anything about the Baltimore sun.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 03:23, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
This case is anything but clear
The murkiness of the forensic facts of Becky Bell's death, as opposed to the clarity with which this article attempts to paint them, is striking. This source provides examples of the hedging and contradiction among the doctors who were involved in the autopsy and coroner's report: [4]. Material specifically relating to the Becky Bell case is found on the page from numbers {254} through {321}. Badmintonhist (talk) 05:13, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
- While your personal views are no doubt deeply held, this talkpage isn't really the place to expound upon them. Please try to use the talkpage as intended, to discuss specific reliable sources and content proposals. The partisan website you linked is not a suitable encyclopedic source (I hope we agree on that). I reviewed a number of actual reliable sources above, at #Newspaper sources; as you can see, there appears to be little or no serious dispute in reliable sources that Bell died of complications a botched abortion. It is true that various anti-abortion websites (and editors) have stridently claimed otherwise, but this is after all intended to be a serious encyclopedia rather than a repository for partisan opinion. MastCell Talk 04:27, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
- As I mentioned before at your Talk page, illustrating with examples, I have very little confidence in your ability to be objective on the abortion issue, MastCell. As for the source I directed readers to above, I don't think that it is suitable for direct use in Wikipedia, but not because it is "partisan" (I see little evidence that it is, and partisan sources are not necessarily disqualified as sources for facts in Wikipedia, anyway) but rather because what it presents is tertiary and overly abridged. I did notice, however, that it cites our missing Cleveland Plain Dealer article frequently. Our colleague BoboMeowCat is apparently in the process of getting ahold of that article from the newspaper. Regards. Badmintonhist (talk) 05:07, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
- PS: Thanks for calling my attention to your "reliable sources" listed above, as I hadn't really taken a good look at them before. Let's see: the article from the Charleston [West Virginia] Gazette (pretty well known for its political liberalism, by the way) is headlined "THESE LAWS KILL"; obviously an objective look at the issue. In the Post-Tribune, Rich James describes Becky Bell as a "vivacious blue-eyed blonde when she died of an infection after a self-induced abortion." Other sources lead us to believe it was performed by a third party but apparently this reporter knew differently. I'm not sure what Margaret Carlson's official position at TIME Magazine was in July 1990, but I do know that within a fairly short time after that she was taking a very firm pro-choice stand in her role as a panelist on TV's Capital Gang and writing all sorts of negative things about social conservatives as a TIME comumnist. However, Harriet Chiang, formerly of the San Francisco Chronicle (another bastion of political even-handedness) takes the prize here. Her description of Becky Bell as a girl who "never her gave her parents cause for worry except when she turned cartwheels down the street to raise money for the Humane Society" manages to bridge the gap between partisan exaggeration and outright lying. Momma, what people!! Badmintonhist (talk) 19:51, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
- If you think that news pieces from TIME, the San Francisco Chronicle, the Times, etc are unreliable, then I think you're profoundly out of step with this site's sourcing policies and guidelines. I suppose if you're serious (as opposed to just angry and emotionally invested), then you could open a discussion at the reliable sources noticeboard on the subject. Before doing so, check your facts: the Charleston Gazette piece quotes the Bells as saying "these laws kill", but does not make this claim in its own voice. (The quotation marks in the headline should make clear that it's, you know, a quote). I'm also not sure I buy your contention that West Virginia is a hotbed of liberalism, but you're free to make that case as well.
Finally, let me encourage you once again to actually find better sources. I posted the ones I found. You're welcome to add the ones you find. If you took a fraction of the effort you're expending to try to discredit reliable sources, and instead invested it in finding better sources, then we'd be making progress. MastCell Talk 00:03, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
- If you think that news pieces from TIME, the San Francisco Chronicle, the Times, etc are unreliable, then I think you're profoundly out of step with this site's sourcing policies and guidelines. I suppose if you're serious (as opposed to just angry and emotionally invested), then you could open a discussion at the reliable sources noticeboard on the subject. Before doing so, check your facts: the Charleston Gazette piece quotes the Bells as saying "these laws kill", but does not make this claim in its own voice. (The quotation marks in the headline should make clear that it's, you know, a quote). I'm also not sure I buy your contention that West Virginia is a hotbed of liberalism, but you're free to make that case as well.
- PS: Thanks for calling my attention to your "reliable sources" listed above, as I hadn't really taken a good look at them before. Let's see: the article from the Charleston [West Virginia] Gazette (pretty well known for its political liberalism, by the way) is headlined "THESE LAWS KILL"; obviously an objective look at the issue. In the Post-Tribune, Rich James describes Becky Bell as a "vivacious blue-eyed blonde when she died of an infection after a self-induced abortion." Other sources lead us to believe it was performed by a third party but apparently this reporter knew differently. I'm not sure what Margaret Carlson's official position at TIME Magazine was in July 1990, but I do know that within a fairly short time after that she was taking a very firm pro-choice stand in her role as a panelist on TV's Capital Gang and writing all sorts of negative things about social conservatives as a TIME comumnist. However, Harriet Chiang, formerly of the San Francisco Chronicle (another bastion of political even-handedness) takes the prize here. Her description of Becky Bell as a girl who "never her gave her parents cause for worry except when she turned cartwheels down the street to raise money for the Humane Society" manages to bridge the gap between partisan exaggeration and outright lying. Momma, what people!! Badmintonhist (talk) 19:51, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, a liberal newspaper in a generally conservative state is, as we all should know, an impossibility and, of course, the headline writer had no choice but to use the "THESE LAWS KILL" quote as the headline for the piece. Also, I suppose, Becky Bell's drug experimentation and earlier pregnancy scare must have been of far less concern to her parents than were her cartwheels on the street. The San Francisco Chronicle said it. By the way, you're earlier contention that the justfacts.com website is partisan comes from . . . ? Badmintonhist (talk) 03:55, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
- From their own website, where they write: "we are conservative/libertarian in our viewpoints", maybe? Or from the fact that the website owner also authored a book purporting to prove that modern archaeology, physics, microbiology, and other sciences support the literal truth of the Bible?
Your demeaning commentary about parents of a dead teenager is sufficiently repugnant that I'm not going to dignify it with a response. Regardless, even if one chooses to ignore the Charleston Gazette, the fact remains that independent, reliable sources consistently describe Bell's death as due to complications of a botched abortion. Why you are committed to denying this is unclear to me. MastCell Talk 04:52, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
- From their own website, where they write: "we are conservative/libertarian in our viewpoints", maybe? Or from the fact that the website owner also authored a book purporting to prove that modern archaeology, physics, microbiology, and other sciences support the literal truth of the Bible?
- Yes, a liberal newspaper in a generally conservative state is, as we all should know, an impossibility and, of course, the headline writer had no choice but to use the "THESE LAWS KILL" quote as the headline for the piece. Also, I suppose, Becky Bell's drug experimentation and earlier pregnancy scare must have been of far less concern to her parents than were her cartwheels on the street. The San Francisco Chronicle said it. By the way, you're earlier contention that the justfacts.com website is partisan comes from . . . ? Badmintonhist (talk) 03:55, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
- You can blame the "demeaning commentary" on a newspaper reporter (or columnist) who apparently thought that Becky Bell's drug use and pregnancy scares gave her parents less concern than her cartwheel turning. Badmintonhist (talk) 16:09, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
Let's not present speculation as fact
I'm about to delete "but Bell lacked the money and transportation to make the trip" (for a legal abortion in Kentucky) for the second time. As I previously explained in an edit summary, this would-be-fact is speculative. It is taken from the 60 Minutes report [5] where Morley Safer says "but that" [going to Kentucky for a legal abortion] "would have meant finding money, a car, and an excuse to be gone all day." Here Safer is merely speculating as to why Becky Bell apparently didn't go to a legal clinic in Kentucky. Perhaps, for example, she did find (or have) the money and the transportation, but couldn't come up with what she felt was a good excuse for being gone that long. Perhaps she had all three but then feared that a legal abortion would mean a record of it somewhere and her parents eventually finding out (which presumedly was why she feared the judicial by-pass option). Perhaps, in the end, she simply felt that she could save time, money, and embarassment by choosing another route. The clearest way of realizing what is wrong with presenting "lacked money and transportation" as fact is to replace it with "lacked an excuse to be gone all day." Each is equally speculative. Neither should be presented as fact. Badmintonhist (talk) 06:07, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
- I guess I don't understand. By your logic, it is equally "speculative" on the part of 60 Minutes to say that Bell experimented with drugs or dated a high-school dropout, yet you seem quite eager to present those particular items as undisputed fact. MastCell Talk 21:00, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
- No, MastCell. 60 Minutes states flatly that Becky experimented with drugs and began dating a high-school drop out. It doesn't present this particular information as conjecture, probably because her parents and friends corroborated it. I've already explained the problem with presenting the "lacked money and transportation" to get a legal abortion in Kentucky bit as fact. We know from reliable sources that she had used drugs and was dating a "drop-out." We don't know with anywhere near the same certainty what kept her from getting an abortion in Kentucky. One is a matter of fact, the other is conjecture. Badmintonhist (talk) 23:23, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
- 60 Minutes states that money and transportation were barriers to Bell traveling for an abortion, just as 60 Minutes states that Bell experimented with drugs and dated a high-school dropout. You insist on presenting one of those items as "fact" and the other as "speculation". I think that's wrong, but whatever. MastCell Talk 03:58, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
- No, MastCell. 60 Minutes states flatly that Becky experimented with drugs and began dating a high-school drop out. It doesn't present this particular information as conjecture, probably because her parents and friends corroborated it. I've already explained the problem with presenting the "lacked money and transportation" to get a legal abortion in Kentucky bit as fact. We know from reliable sources that she had used drugs and was dating a "drop-out." We don't know with anywhere near the same certainty what kept her from getting an abortion in Kentucky. One is a matter of fact, the other is conjecture. Badmintonhist (talk) 23:23, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
More Neutral Introduction
The summary at the head of the article includes two sentences which appear to be promoting an ideological interpretation of this tragic death, clearly asserting that "blame" lies on state laws, for example. Since there is plenty of room for these interpretations are dealt with in the details of the events, along with citations, it is better and more "encyclopedic" to cut these two sentences and relate only the uncontroverted facts and interpretation. The shortened intro stating the simple fact that she died from an abortion and that her parents thereafter became critics of parental consent laws is really both accurate not subject to debate and arguments about who is to blame.
I also made a couple more edits to bring the language closer into line with what is actually stated in the 60 minutes interview.
Finally, I'm wondering why there is a section titled "Parental Consent Laws." It's clearly appropriate to mention that the Bells lobbied against them, but to have two sections "Background" and "Parental Consent Laws" put undue weight on laws rather than what this article is presumably really about, Becky Bell.
It's a short enough article that I don't see why multiple subheadings are needed. Perhaps one heading, "Details of her death and the aftermath" might work.
On second thought, if we really want the titles of articles to define the subject of the article, it might be a good idea to split this article into two. One titled "Becky Bell" and the other titled "Bill and Karen Bell" who are notable persons in their own right. GodBlessYou2 (talk) 03:29, 13 November 2014 (UTC)