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*There was no Russo-Polish conflict. See the notes on names of Muscovy. Secondly, let's stay away from Russian or Namibian or whatever else point of view. Let's consider sources. My primary [http://www.magister.msk.ru/library/history/solov/solv11p1.htm source] of this article was [[Sergey Solovyov]], a prominent Russian historian. While he writes extensively not only on this conflict, but also on other wars of Muscovy of the time, this conflict in his representation is viewed as Moscow's fight for influence in Ukraine. That included not just military option, but extensive and well documented negotiations with Vyhovsky and other rival factions of Ukrainian civil war. To term the Trubetskoy misadventure at Konotop a Muscovy-Poland conflict is wrong and is not supported by reputable source. Again, to have a meaningful discussion you have to educate yourself with well respected sources on this conflict. --[[User:Hillock65|Hillock65]] 12:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC) |
*There was no Russo-Polish conflict. See the notes on names of Muscovy. Secondly, let's stay away from Russian or Namibian or whatever else point of view. Let's consider sources. My primary [http://www.magister.msk.ru/library/history/solov/solv11p1.htm source] of this article was [[Sergey Solovyov]], a prominent Russian historian. While he writes extensively not only on this conflict, but also on other wars of Muscovy of the time, this conflict in his representation is viewed as Moscow's fight for influence in Ukraine. That included not just military option, but extensive and well documented negotiations with Vyhovsky and other rival factions of Ukrainian civil war. To term the Trubetskoy misadventure at Konotop a Muscovy-Poland conflict is wrong and is not supported by reputable source. Again, to have a meaningful discussion you have to educate yourself with well respected sources on this conflict. --[[User:Hillock65|Hillock65]] 12:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC) |
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*Please do not engage in edit wars. I explained my reasoning two times already. Both times I cite '''reputable''' sources and you continue to change the title. This has to stop.--[[User:Hillock65|Hillock65]] 12:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC) |
*Please do not engage in edit wars. I explained my reasoning two times already. Both times I cite '''reputable''' sources and you continue to change the title. This has to stop.--[[User:Hillock65|Hillock65]] 12:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC) |
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== Please stop vandalism! == |
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[[User:Ghirlandajo]] please stop reverting the page without discussion! I warned you once about your violation of policy (WP:3RR), instead you preferred to revert your own discussion page too to cover it. While you may do whatever you want with your page, any significant changes on this page and in this article should be discussed!--[[User:Hillock65|Hillock65]] 14:09, 20 December 2006 (UTC) |
Revision as of 14:09, 20 December 2006
NPOV
As the author of this article I am asking administrators to stop the vandalism of this article made by user: Ghirlandajo. Significant changes have been made without any consultation. The changes (vandalism) of User: Ghirlandajo have completely changed the article. It is my understanding that if any user is in disagreement, they shoul voice their objections first, before making such significant changes as have been made by the aforementioned user. --Hillock65 17:31, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
- I will not report you on WP:PAIN for the time being. Please consult WP:Vandalism#What vandalism is not before making outrageous (and quite silly) accusations against your opponents in the future. --Ghirla -трёп- 17:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Since my intention is to discuss content (rather than indulge in incivility as you do), I will point out that your ambition to represent the battle as a clash between "Ukraine" (anachronistic term) and "Muscovy" (also incorrect) is flawed. Trubetskoy's army contained a lawfully elected Ukrainian hetman (Vyhovsky had been deposed) and substantial Ukrainian contingents. So, it was a mixed East Slavic Orthodox force. Vyhovsky's army was a motley crew composed of peoples of different religions and ethnicities: Tatars, Poles, and Cossacks. Any attempt to represent this battle in isolation from the events of the Russo-Polish War is doomed. Since Vyhovsky betrayed the Treaty of Pereyaslav and returned to the policy of a Polish alliance, he naturally became the enemy of the Tsar, whose army occupied Vilnius at the period. A failure to mention these basic facts is the best evidence of bias. --Ghirla -трёп- 17:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
By the way, in your article about the Ruin you say that Vyhovsky was supported only by the higher echelons of the Cossackdom (starshina). Why do you assume that the army of starshina was the army of "Ukraine", while the army of ordinary Ukrainian Cossacks was that of "Muscovy"? It seems to me that there was an internal struggle within the Hetmanate rather than a "Russian-Ukrainian War" as you try to paint it. Wikipedia is not a propaganda machine, and such tricks are easily exposed for what they are. --Ghirla -трёп- 17:45, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
- In my view, your recent significant changes are just as bias and POV-ish, if not more. You have cut whole chunks of the article without consultation or discussion to suit your flawed view of Ukrainian history. I have asked you repeatedly to consult before making siginificant changes and yet you seem to be looking for confrontation. As such, I will no longer be discussing this article, or any other issue with you and will seek outside mediation. --Hillock65 17:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear Hillock65; I have to agree with Ghirla that there is much that can be discussed on this talk page. The article history shows no revert war, and Ghirla has made some arguments above - with which I don't all agree - but which await a meaningful responce from you. The article is now tagged, you can still edit it, but I'd strongly suggest you two discuss the changes here - how was the POV changed, what references back it, and what and why info was removed. PS. Also, please read the definition of WP:V. While again I will stress I often disagree with Ghirla's edits, in this case it looks to me like a good faith edit dispute about possible POV items, and not any kind of bad faith vandalism.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 21:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
- Dear Piotr; thank you for your comment. By all means I will make an effort to discuss it even with Ghirla. I only ask for administrators to watch this page as in my view, he is using my inexperience in English Wikipedia to threaten me with all kinds of sanctions. You can see those on my discussion page. That's why I was seeking mediation to protect me from this kind of agressive behaviour. My only concearn is history and objectivity. Clearly, we have different views, I only hope that things could be discussed and agreed to mutually acceptable variant before being changed. Thank you.--Hillock65 21:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Personal attack removed--Alex Kov 02:26, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Title of the War
The title of the conflict cannot be Russo-Polish war, that is incorrect. There are several reasons for that. Namely:
- 1. The name of the country that is now Russia was still Muscovy, no matter how much some seem to be ashamed of the name. (I can't think why?) Please see article: Muscovy. There it clearly states that Muscovy (Moscow principality (княжество Московское) to Grand Duchy of Moscow (Великое Княжество Московское) to Russian Tsardom (Царство Русское)) is a traditional Western name for the Russian state that existed from the 14th century to the late 17th century. Events described in the article are clearly the late 17th century - 1659.
- It is me who is in charge of the article about Muscovy. If I consider it prudent, I will move it to Muscovite Russia. The term "Muscovy" is (ab)used throughout Wikipedia primarily in Poland-Ukraine related articles, since it has derogatory connotations in the languages of those two countries. Its use in post-1552 context is certainly misleading. Since you don't deny that alternative names include "Russian Tsardom" and "the Russian state", I see your efforts at purging these from the text as tendentiously motivated. --Ghirla -трёп- 08:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
- You seem to be labouring under some misconception that you own something here, or "in charge" of something. The term Muscovy is the generally accepted term for the country of that peoriod in the English language. As this is an English Encyclopedia, naming rules shoul remain the same as they always have been. As well, considerable changes or movig of content of articles without prior discussion is considered vandalism. That includes the article about Muscovy.--Hillock65 12:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
- 2. Secondly, the events of the battle cannot be part of a bigger war, because the main source of the event - records of Russian historian Sergei Sokolov (see sources) state that Poland's participation was limited to about 4000 men. To ascribe to which country different territories of Ukraine belonged is extremely difficult.
- Sorry, I don't know what Sokolov you talk about. Of course, there was no such state as "Ukraine" at the period. No primary source mentions it under this name. I'm afraid all this is original research. --Ghirla -трёп- 08:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
- I misspelled it first time. Please educate yourself on famous Russian historian Sergey Solovyov, and his research in this area [1]. Not a single time does he mention the word 'Россия' (Russia) in the whole book, it is either Muscovy or Moscow - and he was Russian himself! --Hillock65 12:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
- 3. The army of Trubetskoy was sent to deal with Ukrainians, not with Poles and events took place in Ukraine. That same Sergey Solovyov mentions Ukraine in description of events, and about a conflict between Muscovy and Vyhovsky.
- It was not sent "to deal with Ukrainians", because Vyhovsky's forces were as Ukrainian as they were Polish or Tatar. Trubetskoy's force operated against the Poles together with large contingents of Ukrainian Cossacks. When they saw that Vyhovsky had defected to the enemy and threatened to enter the war on their side, they naturally advanced against him. --Ghirla -трёп- 08:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
- Again, please educate yourself on the sources, Sergey Solovyov is not talking about Trubetskoy's expedition as war with Polang at all, that is because the troops were sent to meddle into Ukrainian civil war trying to protect their territorial possessions, well before an alliance of Vyhovsky with the Crimea and Poland had been concluded. --Hillock65 12:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
- 4. If anything this battle is part of Ukrainian civil war - the Ruin. The only difference is that Vyhovsky fought agains invaders with the help of Tatars and Poles.--Hillock65 22:04, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
- It is part of the "civil war" from the Ukrainian perspective, but it is part of the Russo-Polish conflict from the Russian perspective. One hetman involved Russia into a costly and bloody war with Poland which dragged for thirteen years. When Russian armies reached Wilno, his successor reneged on Khmelnytsky's promises and allied himself with Poland. I don't know why you are so ashamed to call his actions a "betrayal", since a betrayal it was. Please don't wipe out the vital background of the battle. --Ghirla -трёп- 08:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
- There was no Russo-Polish conflict. See the notes on names of Muscovy. Secondly, let's stay away from Russian or Namibian or whatever else point of view. Let's consider sources. My primary source of this article was Sergey Solovyov, a prominent Russian historian. While he writes extensively not only on this conflict, but also on other wars of Muscovy of the time, this conflict in his representation is viewed as Moscow's fight for influence in Ukraine. That included not just military option, but extensive and well documented negotiations with Vyhovsky and other rival factions of Ukrainian civil war. To term the Trubetskoy misadventure at Konotop a Muscovy-Poland conflict is wrong and is not supported by reputable source. Again, to have a meaningful discussion you have to educate yourself with well respected sources on this conflict. --Hillock65 12:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
- Please do not engage in edit wars. I explained my reasoning two times already. Both times I cite reputable sources and you continue to change the title. This has to stop.--Hillock65 12:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Please stop vandalism!
User:Ghirlandajo please stop reverting the page without discussion! I warned you once about your violation of policy (WP:3RR), instead you preferred to revert your own discussion page too to cover it. While you may do whatever you want with your page, any significant changes on this page and in this article should be discussed!--Hillock65 14:09, 20 December 2006 (UTC)