Title of the War |
|||
Line 13: | Line 13: | ||
Dear Hillock65; I have to agree with Ghirla that there is much that can be discussed on this talk page. The article history shows no [[revert war]], and Ghirla has made some arguments above - with which I don't all agree - but which await a meaningful responce from you. The article is now tagged, you can still edit it, but I'd strongly suggest you two discuss the changes here - how was the POV changed, what references back it, and what and why info was removed. PS. Also, please read the definition of [[WP:V]]. While again I will stress I often disagree with Ghirla's edits, in this case it looks to me like a good faith edit dispute about possible POV items, and not any kind of bad faith vandalism.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus| Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> talk </font>]]</span></sub> 21:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC) |
Dear Hillock65; I have to agree with Ghirla that there is much that can be discussed on this talk page. The article history shows no [[revert war]], and Ghirla has made some arguments above - with which I don't all agree - but which await a meaningful responce from you. The article is now tagged, you can still edit it, but I'd strongly suggest you two discuss the changes here - how was the POV changed, what references back it, and what and why info was removed. PS. Also, please read the definition of [[WP:V]]. While again I will stress I often disagree with Ghirla's edits, in this case it looks to me like a good faith edit dispute about possible POV items, and not any kind of bad faith vandalism.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus| Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> talk </font>]]</span></sub> 21:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC) |
||
: Dear Piotr; thank you for your comment. By all means I will make an effort to discuss it even with Ghirla. I only ask for administrators to watch this page as in my view, he is using my inexperience in English Wikipedia to threaten me with all kinds of sanctions. You can see those on my discussion page. That's why I was seeking mediation to protect me from this kind of agressive behaviour. My only concearn is history and objectivity. Clearly, we have different views, I only hope that things could be discussed and agreed to mutually acceptable variant before being changed. Thank you.--[[User:Hillock65|Hillock65]] 21:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC) |
: Dear Piotr; thank you for your comment. By all means I will make an effort to discuss it even with Ghirla. I only ask for administrators to watch this page as in my view, he is using my inexperience in English Wikipedia to threaten me with all kinds of sanctions. You can see those on my discussion page. That's why I was seeking mediation to protect me from this kind of agressive behaviour. My only concearn is history and objectivity. Clearly, we have different views, I only hope that things could be discussed and agreed to mutually acceptable variant before being changed. Thank you.--[[User:Hillock65|Hillock65]] 21:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC) |
||
Ghirla always push POV materials about "eternal Russian-Ukrainian friendship" and all kinds of Soviet-biased or Russian nationalistic staff in Wikipedia. Just look in his contributions. No wonder that he will continue to vandalize this page. --[[User:Alex Kov|Alex Kov]] 02:26, 20 December 2006 (UTC) |
|||
== Title of the War == |
== Title of the War == |
Revision as of 02:26, 20 December 2006
NPOV
As the author of this article I am asking administrators to stop the vandalism of this article made by user: Ghirlandajo. Significant changes have been made without any consultation. The changes (vandalism) of User: Ghirlandajo have completely changed the article. It is my understanding that if any user is in disagreement, they shoul voice their objections first, before making such significant changes as have been made by the aforementioned user. --Hillock65 17:31, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
- I will not report you on WP:PAIN for the time being. Please consult WP:Vandalism#What vandalism is not before making outrageous (and quite silly) accusations against your opponents in the future. --Ghirla -трёп- 17:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Since my intention is to discuss content (rather than indulge in incivility as you do), I will point out that your ambition to represent the battle as a clash between "Ukraine" (anachronistic term) and "Muscovy" (also incorrect) is flawed. Trubetskoy's army contained a lawfully elected Ukrainian hetman (Vyhovsky had been deposed) and substantial Ukrainian contingents. So, it was a mixed East Slavic Orthodox force. Vyhovsky's army was a motley crew composed of peoples of different religions and ethnicities: Tatars, Poles, and Cossacks. Any attempt to represent this battle in isolation from the events of the Russo-Polish War is doomed. Since Vyhovsky betrayed the Treaty of Pereyaslav and returned to the policy of a Polish alliance, he naturally became the enemy of the Tsar, whose army occupied Vilnius at the period. A failure to mention these basic facts is the best evidence of bias. --Ghirla -трёп- 17:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
By the way, in your article about the Ruin you say that Vyhovsky was supported only by the higher echelons of the Cossackdom (starshina). Why do you assume that the army of starshina was the army of "Ukraine", while the army of ordinary Ukrainian Cossacks was that of "Muscovy"? It seems to me that there was an internal struggle within the Hetmanate rather than a "Russian-Ukrainian War" as you try to paint it. Wikipedia is not a propaganda machine, and such tricks are easily exposed for what they are. --Ghirla -трёп- 17:45, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
- In my view, your recent significant changes are just as bias and POV-ish, if not more. You have cut whole chunks of the article without consultation or discussion to suit your flawed view of Ukrainian history. I have asked you repeatedly to consult before making siginificant changes and yet you seem to be looking for confrontation. As such, I will no longer be discussing this article, or any other issue with you and will seek outside mediation. --Hillock65 17:53, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Dear Hillock65; I have to agree with Ghirla that there is much that can be discussed on this talk page. The article history shows no revert war, and Ghirla has made some arguments above - with which I don't all agree - but which await a meaningful responce from you. The article is now tagged, you can still edit it, but I'd strongly suggest you two discuss the changes here - how was the POV changed, what references back it, and what and why info was removed. PS. Also, please read the definition of WP:V. While again I will stress I often disagree with Ghirla's edits, in this case it looks to me like a good faith edit dispute about possible POV items, and not any kind of bad faith vandalism.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 21:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
- Dear Piotr; thank you for your comment. By all means I will make an effort to discuss it even with Ghirla. I only ask for administrators to watch this page as in my view, he is using my inexperience in English Wikipedia to threaten me with all kinds of sanctions. You can see those on my discussion page. That's why I was seeking mediation to protect me from this kind of agressive behaviour. My only concearn is history and objectivity. Clearly, we have different views, I only hope that things could be discussed and agreed to mutually acceptable variant before being changed. Thank you.--Hillock65 21:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Ghirla always push POV materials about "eternal Russian-Ukrainian friendship" and all kinds of Soviet-biased or Russian nationalistic staff in Wikipedia. Just look in his contributions. No wonder that he will continue to vandalize this page. --Alex Kov 02:26, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Title of the War
The title of the conflict cannot be Russo-Polish war, that is incorrect. There are several reasons for that. Namely:
- 1. The name of the country that is now Russia was still Muscovy, no matter how much some seem to be ashamed of the name. (I can't think why?) Please see article: Muscovy. There it clearly states that Muscovy (Moscow principality (княжество Московское) to Grand Duchy of Moscow (Великое Княжество Московское) to Russian Tsardom (Царство Русское)) is a traditional Western name for the Russian state that existed from the 14th century to the late 17th century. Events described in the article are clearly the late 17th century - 1659.
- 2. Secondly, the events of the battle cannot be part of a bigger war, because the main source of the event - records of Russian historian Sergei Sokolov (see sources) state that Poland's participation was limited to about 4000 men. To ascribe to which country different territories of Ukraine belonged is extremely difficult.
- 3. The army of Trubetskoy was sent to deal with Ukrainians, not with Poles and events took place in Ukraine. That same Sokolov mentions Ukraine in description of events, and about a conflict between Muscovy and Vyhovsky.
- 4. If anything this battle is part of Ukrainian civil war - the Ruin. The only difference is that Vyhovsky fought agains invaders with the help of Tatars and Poles.--Hillock65 22:04, 19 December 2006 (UTC)