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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 March 2021
Result Pakistan victory Abdul alim mia (talk) 11:56, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
- Please provide reliable sources for the change you'd like to make. Thanks. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:07, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
- This RfC should answer that.—S Marshall T/C 12:09, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
Not done. The sources cited, which are of good quality, seem clear that the result was inconclusive. Unless some other sources of equal quality come along, no revision is warranted. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:28, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
- Don't be silly. The Battle of Chawinda was the final engagement in the Second Kashmir War. The sources rightly say that the Second Kashmir War was inconclusive -- but the Battle of Chawinda wasn't inconclusive. As demonstrated in the RfC that I personally closed six years ago, the sources say that the Battle of Chawinda was a Pakistani victory. The RfC outcome was challenged and confirmed here. Please allow it to be implemented.—S Marshall T/C 22:48, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
- Not possible until this more recent consensus has been overturned. Aman Kumar Goel (Talk) 17:06, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
- Don't be silly. The Battle of Chawinda was the final engagement in the Second Kashmir War. The sources rightly say that the Second Kashmir War was inconclusive -- but the Battle of Chawinda wasn't inconclusive. As demonstrated in the RfC that I personally closed six years ago, the sources say that the Battle of Chawinda was a Pakistani victory. The RfC outcome was challenged and confirmed here. Please allow it to be implemented.—S Marshall T/C 22:48, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
- This RfC should answer that.—S Marshall T/C 12:09, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
Thank you Aman.kumar.goel. I didn't know that there was discussion before the result field was changed. The current sources are certainly much better than the old ones, they are newer and broader, and therefore more neutral. In response to S Marshall, these sources are indeed saying that the result of Battle of Chawinda was a draw, not that the overall war was a draw.
Honestly, I don't know how scholars decide the wins or losses. Pakistan retained Chawinda. In that sense, it had won. But is that all there is to it? Indians certainly knew that whatever territory they won, they would eventually have to give back. And Chawinda is not such an important piece of territory that it would make a difference for anything. But the Indians got Pakistan (a) to agree to an unconditional ceasefire, and (b) to agree to a truce without any concessions on Kashmir. In that sense, it seems to me that India achieved whatever it was trying to achieve in Chawinda. Knowledgeable scholars would understand the big picture. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:38, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
- That short, poorly attended discussion doesn't overturn a community RFC.—S Marshall T/C 00:07, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
Done, and thank you all very much! P.I. Ellsworth ed. put'r there 19:34, 12 April 2021 (UTC)P.I. Ellsworth ed. put'r there 19:34, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- Srijanx22, the result field is implementing an RfC result. You can't change it without achieving WP:CONSENSUS for the change. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:10, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Kautilya3: See WP:RS and WP:VERIFY. RfC was 6 years old and the last consensus to change the result was 3 years old. Obviously a new discussion would be needed to change anything from "inconclusive". You can't overturn the latest consensus without providing clear cut WP:RS for supporting "pakistani victory" which is meaningless in this context per your own reply above. Srijanx22 (talk) 16:42, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
- At this point, your only option is to do another RfC. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:57, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
- WP:V is among five pillars of Wikipedia, not RfC. Upholding a 6 years old RfC against a consensus sticking for more than 3 years is not going to fly.
- See: David R. Higgins (20 January 2016). M48 Patton vs Centurion: Indo-Pakistani War 1965. Bloomsbury Publishing. pp. 72–73. ISBN 978-1-4728-1093-9.:
- "At 1630hrs, with the Pakistani position faltering, Brigadier Abdul Ali Malik, commander of 24th Infantry Brigade, expressed doubts about being able to hold his position and unsuccessfully sought permission to withdraw from Chawinda. Pakistani artillery fired at Indian armour at Butur Dograndi from some 1,500m, which halted the Indian movement. 25th Cavalry tanks engaged as well, and this artillery/tank combination knocked out four Indian tanks; 24th Cavalry then stemmed the advance in this sector. Lieutenant-General Dunn, GOC I Corps, met with 1st Armoured Division and 6th Mountain Division at Maharajke to discuss fresh plans for Indian forces to capture Chawinda, Bedian and Zafarwal. 6th Mountain Division was tasked with taking Chawinda, while 1st Armoured Division and 14th Infantry Division moved on Bedian and Zafarwal, respectively. Since 6th Mountain Division’s 69th and 99th Mountain brigades were already committed elsewhere, 35th and 58th Infantry brigades were reallocated to Major-General Korla’s 6th Mountain Division from 1st Armoured Division. As a preliminary to launching an attack on Chawinda, Indian forces captured certain villages; these would serve as pivots to attack Chawinda, and to counter any Pakistani attempts to interfere. In a series of brisk actions, 1st Armoured Division employed 4th Horse, 17th Horse and 8th Garhwal Rifles, securing the villages by dusk against stiff resistance. Pakistan lost 28 tanks during the day. Several Indian commanders were also killed. During the night of 16/17 September, 1st Armoured Division headquarters misunderstood the reallocation of 35th Infantry Brigade to 6th Mountain Division, and moved the brigade forward from Gadgor to Phillora as part of a preliminary attack move before the brigade returned to its original location, thereby wasting valuable time. After three days of heavy fighting, 17 September was relatively calm, with only minor repositioning. The Pakistanis had halted the Indian assault on Chawinda, but it had created a large penetration between Bedian and Chawinda. Localized Pakistani counter-attacks achieved little, and Indian armour and infantry held all their gains against tenacious Pakistani attacks. Tank battles raged throughout the morning and afternoon, with both sides losing eight vehicles each. 6th Mountain Division was to effect its attack on Chawinda while 1st Armoured Division held key villages west of Chawinda to cover Korla’s command until it captured the settlement. However the attack, slated for the night of 17/18 September, was again postponed for 24 hours. After Major-General Rajinder Singh stressed that his 1st Armoured Division had been holding villages west of Chawinda and would be hard pressed to continue doing so, the division was withdrawn from two of the villages; but it retained Jassoran at all costs, as this represented a firm base of operations for the Indian infantry. According to 1st Armoured Brigade, conditions during 14–17 September had been favourable for an infantry assault on Chawinda, as it and Bedian had been isolated and cut off from three sides, following 1st Armoured Brigade’s having invested both from the rear, particularly on 16 and 17 September. Roughly two Pakistani infantry companies held the area near each objective, but as these were reinforced, applying Indian armour was considered unwise, and an opportunity was lost. Even so, although Pakistan forces had halted the Indian offensive in the Sialkot region, they had shot their bolt and were exhausted. Pakistani armour had been battered, and stocks of artillery ammunition were nearly expended."
- Given this detailed source, more detailed than the sources of dubious reliability rejected in earlier consensus notes that Pakistan "halted the Indian offensive" and also notes the Indian gains, it really makes no sense to conclusions of victory and defeat. Why can't we stick to sources at this stage? Srijanx22 (talk) 17:42, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
- At this point, your only option is to do another RfC. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:57, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Kautilya3: See WP:RS and WP:VERIFY. RfC was 6 years old and the last consensus to change the result was 3 years old. Obviously a new discussion would be needed to change anything from "inconclusive". You can't overturn the latest consensus without providing clear cut WP:RS for supporting "pakistani victory" which is meaningless in this context per your own reply above. Srijanx22 (talk) 16:42, 13 April 2021 (UTC)