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== Territorial changes == |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 March 2021 == |
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{{Edit extended-protected|Battle of Chawinda|answered=yes}} |
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The territorial changes section says that {{talkquote|India captures around 460 km (180 sq mi) of Pakistani territory}} |
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{{edit extended-protected|Battle of Chawinda|answered=yes}} |
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While the source cited to it doesn't say that it was captured during the Battle of Chawinda, rather it was captured in the Sialkot region. So it should be removed as the Indian advance was halted at Chawinda they didn't gain any territory in this battle. [[User:LiamKhan469|LiamKhan469]] ([[User talk:LiamKhan469|talk]]) 21:11, 31 August 2021 (UTC) |
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Result Pakistan victory [[User:Abdul alim mia|Abdul alim mia]] ([[User talk:Abdul alim mia|talk]]) 11:56, 23 March 2021 (UTC) |
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:Please provide reliable sources for the change you'd like to make. Thanks. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 12:07, 23 March 2021 (UTC) |
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::[[Talk:Battle_of_Chawinda/Archive_1#DID_the_battle_lead_to_Major_Pakistani_victory?|This RfC]] should answer that.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 12:09, 9 April 2021 (UTC) |
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::: {{not done}}. The sources cited, which are of good quality, seem clear that the result was inconclusive. Unless some other sources of equal quality come along, no revision is warranted. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 16:28, 9 April 2021 (UTC) |
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:::: Don't be silly. The Battle of Chawinda was the final engagement in the Second Kashmir War. The sources rightly say that the Second Kashmir War was inconclusive -- but the Battle of Chawinda wasn't inconclusive. As demonstrated in the RfC that I personally closed six years ago, the sources say that the Battle of Chawinda was a Pakistani victory. The RfC outcome was challenged and confirmed [[Special:Permalink/644921474#Reviewing RfC closure : Battle of Chawinda|here]]. Please allow it to be implemented.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 22:48, 9 April 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::Not possible until [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Battle_of_Chawinda/Archive_2#Result this more recent consensus] has been overturned. '''[[User:Aman.kumar.goel|Aman Kumar Goel]]''' <sup>(''[[User talk:Aman.kumar.goel|Talk]]'')</sup> 17:06, 10 April 2021 (UTC) |
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{{od}} |
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Thank you {{U|Aman.kumar.goel}}. I didn't know that there was discussion before the result field was changed. The current sources are certainly much better than the old ones, they are newer and broader, and therefore more neutral. In response to {{U|S Marshall}}, these sources are indeed saying that the result of Battle of Chawinda was a draw, not that the overall war was a draw. |
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:This appears to be a fair observation of the actual battle. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 23:50, 31 August 2021 (UTC) |
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Honestly, I don't know how scholars decide the wins or losses. Pakistan retained Chawinda. In that sense, it had won. But is that all there is to it? Indians certainly knew that whatever territory they won, they would eventually have to give back. And Chawinda is not such an important piece of territory that it would make a difference for anything. But the Indians got Pakistan (a) to agree to an unconditional ceasefire, and (b) to agree to a truce without any concessions on Kashmir. In that sense, it seems to me that India achieved whatever it was trying to achieve in Chawinda. Knowledgeable scholars would understand the big picture. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 20:38, 10 April 2021 (UTC) |
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:: {{re|Cinderella157 }}Then please remove it.[[User:LiamKhan469|LiamKhan469]] ([[User talk:LiamKhan469|talk]]) 15:45, 1 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:::[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:EEp --> Request was made by a user banned for sockpuppetry <span style="text-shadow:red 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em; font-family:monospace">[[User:Bop34|bop34]] • [[User talk:Bop34|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Bop34|contribs]]</span> 12:12, 2 September 2021 (UTC) |
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== RFC: Should the result be changed to Indian defeat or Pakistani victory == |
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*That short, poorly attended discussion doesn't overturn a community RFC.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 00:07, 11 April 2021 (UTC) |
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{{od}} |
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{{done}}, and thank you all very much''!'' '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>19:34, 12 April 2021 (UTC)</small>'''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>19:34, 12 April 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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{{atop|RfC started by a ban evading sock, closing it per [[WP:DENY]]. Anybody else willing to start an RfC must read [[WP:RFCBEFORE]] and the earlier RfCs. '''[[User:Aman.kumar.goel|Aman Kumar Goel]]''' <sup>(''[[User talk:Aman.kumar.goel|Talk]]'')</sup> 11:50, 18 August 2022 (UTC)}} |
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{{undone}} against consensus and the facts that appear in every source. Pakistan held on to Chawinda. India did not take Chawinda. No reliable source denies those two facts. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>10:08, 14 April 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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<s>In light of the sources mentioned below, should the result be changed from "inconclusive" to '''Indian defeat''' or '''Pakistani victory'''? Thanks --[[Special:Contributions/101.53.225.41|101.53.225.41]] ([[User talk:101.53.225.41|talk]]) 20:04, 14 August 2022 (UTC)</s> Blocked sock |
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<s>Following are some independent sources that state that this battle result was an '''Indian defeat''' or a '''Pakistani victory''':</s> |
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::{{ping|Kautilya3}} See [[WP:RS]] and [[WP:VERIFY]]. RfC was 6 years old and the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Battle_of_Chawinda/Archive_2#Result last consensus to change the result] was 3 years old. Obviously a new discussion would be needed to change anything from "inconclusive". You can't overturn the latest consensus without providing clear cut [[WP:RS]] for supporting "pakistani victory" which is meaningless in this context per your own reply above. [[User:Srijanx22|Srijanx22]] ([[User_talk:Srijanx22|talk]]) 16:42, 13 April 2021 (UTC) |
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{{collapsed top|title=Independent sources that states that this battle was a Indian defeat or a Pakistani victory}} |
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::: At this point, your only option is to do another RfC. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 16:57, 13 April 2021 (UTC) |
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::::[[WP:V]] is among [[WP:5P|five pillars]] of Wikipedia, not RfC. Upholding a 6 years old RfC against a consensus sticking for more than 3 years is not going to fly. |
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::::See: ''{{cite book|author=David R. Higgins|title=M48 Patton vs Centurion: Indo-Pakistani War 1965|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=Tx_DCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA72|date=20 January 2016|publisher=Bloomsbury Publishing|isbn=978-1-4728-1093-9|pages=72–73}}'': |
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::::"At 1630hrs, with the Pakistani position faltering, Brigadier Abdul Ali Malik, commander of 24th Infantry Brigade, expressed doubts about being able to hold his position and unsuccessfully sought permission to withdraw from Chawinda. Pakistani artillery fired at Indian armour at Butur Dograndi from some 1,500m, which halted the Indian movement. 25th Cavalry tanks engaged as well, and this artillery/tank combination knocked out four Indian tanks; 24th Cavalry then stemmed the advance in this sector. Lieutenant-General Dunn, GOC I Corps, met with 1st Armoured Division and 6th Mountain Division at Maharajke to discuss fresh plans for Indian forces to capture Chawinda, Bedian and Zafarwal. 6th Mountain Division was tasked with taking Chawinda, while 1st Armoured Division and 14th Infantry Division moved on Bedian and Zafarwal, respectively. Since 6th Mountain Division’s 69th and 99th Mountain brigades were already committed elsewhere, 35th and 58th Infantry brigades were reallocated to Major-General Korla’s 6th Mountain Division from 1st Armoured Division. As a preliminary to launching an attack on Chawinda, Indian forces captured certain villages; these would serve as pivots to attack Chawinda, and to counter any Pakistani attempts to interfere. In a series of brisk actions, 1st Armoured Division employed 4th Horse, 17th Horse and 8th Garhwal Rifles, securing the villages by dusk against stiff resistance. Pakistan lost 28 tanks during the day. Several Indian commanders were also killed. During the night of 16/17 September, 1st Armoured Division headquarters misunderstood the reallocation of 35th Infantry Brigade to 6th Mountain Division, and moved the brigade forward from Gadgor to Phillora as part of a preliminary attack move before the brigade returned to its original location, thereby wasting valuable time. After three days of heavy fighting, 17 September was relatively calm, with only minor repositioning. The Pakistanis had halted the Indian assault on Chawinda, but it had created a large penetration between Bedian and Chawinda. Localized Pakistani counter-attacks achieved little, and Indian armour and infantry held all their gains against tenacious Pakistani attacks. Tank battles raged throughout the morning and afternoon, with both sides losing eight vehicles each. 6th Mountain Division was to effect its attack on Chawinda while 1st Armoured Division held key villages west of Chawinda to cover Korla’s command until it captured the settlement. However the attack, slated for the night of 17/18 September, was again postponed for 24 hours. After Major-General Rajinder Singh stressed that his 1st Armoured Division had been holding villages west of Chawinda and would be hard pressed to continue doing so, the division was withdrawn from two of the villages; but it retained Jassoran at all costs, as this represented a firm base of operations for the Indian infantry. According to 1st Armoured Brigade, conditions during 14–17 September had been favourable for an infantry assault on Chawinda, as it and Bedian had been isolated and cut off from three sides, following 1st Armoured Brigade’s having invested both from the rear, particularly on 16 and 17 September. Roughly two Pakistani infantry companies held the area near each objective, but as these were reinforced, applying Indian armour was considered unwise, and an opportunity was lost. Even so, although Pakistan forces had halted the Indian offensive in the Sialkot region, they had shot their bolt and were exhausted. Pakistani armour had been battered, and stocks of artillery ammunition were nearly expended." |
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:::::Given this detailed source, more detailed than the sources of dubious reliability rejected in earlier consensus notes that Pakistan "halted the Indian offensive" and also notes the Indian gains, it really makes no sense to conclusions of victory and defeat. Why can't we stick to sources at this stage? [[User:Srijanx22|Srijanx22]] ([[User_talk:Srijanx22|talk]]) 17:42, 13 April 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::Please read it again. The source you provide above clearly states {{gi|... stemmed the advance in this sector ...}}, {{gi|The Pakistanis had halted the Indian assault on Chawinda ...}}, {{gi|Roughly two Pakistani infantry companies held the area near each objective, but as these were reinforced, applying Indian armour was considered unwise}} and {{gi|Pakistan forces had halted the Indian offensive in the Sialkot region ...}}. The rest is just "icing on the cake". The real meat of the matter was that it was a clear victory for Pakistan. Indian military were unable to take Chawinda because the Pakistani military ''did not let them take Chawinda''. The war's result was decidedly inconclusive; however, the battle for Chawinda resulted in a clear, conclusive victory for Pakistan (even according to the source you quoted above). This is not just a matter on which editors may agree or disagree. This is a matter of what the sources say, and even Higgins indicates that the battle of Chawinda was won by Pakistan. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>19:26, 13 April 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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:::::::The source does not make that interpretation. All it says is that the Indian offensive came to a stop at Chawinda but they continued to hold the surrounding villages in the Sialkot region of Pakistan, and that the Pakistani had shot their bolt. If anything, that just implies that the Indians were in a commanding position to dictate things at Chawinda had the ceasefire not come into force. See, for example, [https://books.google.com/books?id=YWjP1pfs78sC&dq=inauthor%3A%22Sitaram+Johri%22&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=%22Chawinda+%28+Pak+%29+held+out+for+another+five+days+when+the+cease+-+fire+saved+it+from+capitulation+or+war+ravages+.+The+tank+battles+of+Phillora+%2C+Jassoran+and+Butur+Dograndi+were+historic+and+the+victory+which+the+Indian+troops+won+was+unique%22]: {{olive|Chawinda ( Pak ) held out for another five days when the cease - fire saved it from capitulation or war ravages . The tank battles of Phillora , Jassoran and Butur Dograndi were historic and the victory which the Indian troops won was unique...}}{{paragraph}}In any case, the fact of the matter is that the RFC that you have so forcefully invoked to change results had not stood the test of time and was duly changed back in 2017. That discussion too involved half a dozen participants, if not more, and what eventually emerged was a clear unanimous consensus that ''inconclusive'' was an apt description of the result of this battle, in line with what the preponderance of third party, reliable sources said. More importantly, it rejected the very sources on which you have based your case: John Fricker (who was officially tasked to write a history of the war by the Pakistani government) and the book written by one of the Pakistan's foreign service officer. That's just how the [[WP:CCC|normal consensus process works]]. And mind you, that consensus ''has'' stood the test of time for three years now, a fact that reinforces its credibility and relevance. Trying to pretend otherwise, or deliberately failing to consider that as if no discussion took place is simply disruptive. Edit warring to force things is even moreso. Now if you feel so strongly about this whole thing to the extent of asserting that Chawinda "was a clear victory for Pakistan", then show us your sources and achieve a new consensus. Until then, the status-quo will prevail. [[User:MBlaze Lightning|MBlaze Lightning]] ([[User talk:MBlaze Lightning|talk]]) 02:59, 14 April 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::::I'm going to overlook your apparent lack of AGF and your unjust blame of edit warring, which I have not done. It is you who are pretending that the so called 2017 consensus, [[Talk:Battle of Chawinda/Archive 2#Result|which actually took place in 2018]] (if that is the consensus you mean), was able to overturn the previous consensus. Consensus can change, but more importantly you need to stop denying the obvious meanings from the sources, even the Higgins source you quoted. No, Higgins does not actually call it a Pakistani victory, but he does imply it. And it would not be the first time that one side "had shot their bolt", but the other side was unaware of it. Had the Indian military known that the bolt had been shot, then Higgins would not have written that the Indian military considered it to be "unwise" to attack Chawinda. It is you who seems to feel too strongly about this, so stop denying it. It's like a 4th quarter football game where one team makes a touchdown to tie the game, or a runner making the tying run in the 9th inning of a baseball game. Pakistan held on to Chawinda. India did not take Chawinda. No amount of denial can change those two facts. Can you produce a reliable source that states otherwise? '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>09:30, 14 April 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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{{od}} |
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{{ec}} Response to MBlaze: I had organised the references into [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Battle_of_Chawinda&oldid=1017585374 two groups] (those supporting Pakistani victory and those calling it a stalemate). There should be no need to remove this while you argue about what the result field should say. |
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<s>#[https://books.google.com.pk/books?id=6f2opVxRGDcC Arming without Aiming: India's Military Modernization]<blockquote>India did not press the advantage and soon after''' suffered its own debacle in the Battle of Chawinda'''. When the Soviets offered mediation, New Delhi accepted, and India’s strategic condition remained unchanged</blockquote> |
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I am happy to remove Fricker, which reads like a propaganda piece to me anyway, but Shahid Amin is fine with an OUP book. |
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#{{citation |first=Steven J. |last=Zaloga |title=The M47 & M48 Patton Tanks |publisher=Osprey Publishing |location=London |year=1980 |ISBN=0-85045-466-2}}<blockquote>both [India and Pakistan] proved adept with smaller forces in a defensive role such as the 2nd Armd. Bde. at Asal Uttar and the 25th Cavalry at Chawinda, '''where they defeated their better equipped but clumsier foes'''</blockquote> |
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#[https://books.google.com.pk/books?id=Tx_DCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA72&redir_esc=y M48 Patton vs Centurion: Indo-Pakistani War 1965]<blockquote>Roughly two Pakistani infantry companies held the area near each objective, but as these were reinforced, applying Indian armour was considered unwise, and an opportunity was lost. Even so, although '''Pakistan forces had halted the Indian offensive''' in the Sialkot region, they had shot their bolt and were exhausted. Pakistani armour had been battered, and stocks of artillery ammunition were nearly expended.</blockquote> |
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#[https://books.google.com.pk/books?id=Vr2SDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA14&redir_esc=y Commanding Military Power: Organizing for Victory and Defeat on the Battlefield]<blockquote>Among the notable defensive victories, however, were the Soviet defeat of the Japanese at Changkufeng Hill in 1938, Japan's repeated failures to retake Henderson Field on Guadalcanal between August and November 1942, the '''Indian failure to defeat the Pakistanis in the tank battle at Chawinda''' in the 1965 war fought between those countries, and Egypt and Syria's ultimately unsuccessful assaults on Israel through the Sinai Peninsula and Golan Heights during the Yom Kippur War.</blockquote> |
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#[https://books.google.com.pk/books?id=XcADAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y Valour Enshrined: 1947-1979] an Indian source<blockquote>In the overall context, the '''Chawinda attack was a failure''' and in the confusion after an unsuccessful operation, the valour of those who fought and died went unheard and unsung. But in the Regiment, the battle of Chawinda will always be remembered and honoured as one more example of bravery in the unending saga of Maratha chivalry.</blockquote> |
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#[https://books.google.com.pk/books?id=5a0NAQAAQBAJ From Kutch to Tashkent: The Indo-Pakistan War of 1965]<blockquote>'''with their successful defence of Chawinda''', and the Indians' inability to take the town must have been demoralising for the troops. The casualties inflicted on Indian troops in the last assault on 19 September effectively meant that 1 Armoured Division was also no longer able to carry out major offensive operations from that date. It appears that tensions amongst the senior commanders of this operation did not assist and it seems that there was also a failure to command from the front, from brigade commanders down. The Indian commander on the whole western front was highly critical of his own forces</blockquote> |
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#[https://books.google.com.pk/books?id=O8JQCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA201&redir_esc=y Tank: 100 Years of the World's Most Important Armored Military Vehicle]<blockquote>During the Battle of Chawinda, the largest armoured engagement since Kursk,''' Pakistani forces halted an Indian invasion of their country'''. In September 1965, the Pakistanis '''blunted a thrust''' by the Indian 1st Armored Division as each side fielded more than 250 tanks. Pakistani armor included the M48 and improved Sherman tanks of World War II vintage, while the Indians committed both Centurions and Shermans to the fight. When it was over, the Pakistanis had lost an estimated 44 tanks, while the ''Indians suffered up to 120 destroyed'', although they later asserted that they had lost only 29 armored vehicles</blockquote> |
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#[https://books.google.com.pk/books?id=nq1aAAAAYAAJ&redir_esc=y A Global Chronology of Conflict: From the Ancient World to the Modern Middle East, Volume 2]<blockquote>The Indians then reinforce and push the Pakistanis back to their base at Chawinda, '''where the Indians are again halted on September 10'''. After the Indians defeat a counterattack, the Pakistanis take up defensive positions. Both sides now reinforce. Although the Indians substantially outnumber the Pakistanis in manpower, many of the Pakistani tanks are superior to those of the Indians, and their artillery has greater range. The Pakistanis are '''ultimately able to push most of the Indian forces back across the international border. Pakistan is the victor in the battle'''.</blockquote> |
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#[https://books.google.com.pk/books?id=3SqCDwAAQBAJ&redir_esc=y A History of the Pakistan Army: Wars and Insurrections]<blockquote>On 12 September the Pakistanis tried without success to retake Phillora, and next day the Indians attempted to outflank Chawinda from the east but, in an impressive display of flexibility, the Pakistanis moved 19 and 20 Lancers and 1 FF (of 1 Armd. Div.) to its defence, and the '''Indian advance was halted after fierce fighting'''... An attack against Chawinda was planned for the 14th, but in a classic employment of good intelligence and efficient artillery the '''Pakistanis located the forming-up place of the Garhwali battalion that was to lead the assault and brought fire down on it. The battalion was forced to withdraw and the attack did not take place'''... On the night of 15/16 September the Indians again tried to outflank the main Pakistani force, this time by pressing west to Jassoran... then south to cut off Chawinda from the rear. Once the village was isolated, the Indians considered it would fall... '''but their armour was engaged so heavily by Pakistani anti-tank weapons that it could not advance further. The battalion held out until 17 September, when it was forced to withdraw to Jassoran'''</blockquote> |
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#[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/lieutenantgeneral-hamid-gul-general-ziaulhaq-s-spymaster-who-was-dismissed-by-benazir-bhutto-and-later-accused-of-supporting-terrorism-10461392.html The Independent]<blockquote>He was credited with contributing to what has been regarded as a''' victory for Pakistan in the Battle of Chawinda''', by holding back the Indian offensive towards Sialkot. The action has been described as the greatest tank battle since the Second World War, and Pakistan commentators called it “the graveyard of Indian tanks”. Hostilities were ended by a UN ceasefire.</blockquote> |
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#[https://thediplomat.com/2015/09/how-india-fought-pakistan-50-years-ago The Diplomat]<blockquote>The Indian and Pakistani armies fought each other another 15 days, during the course of which '''both armies won their share of tactical victories — India in Phillora and Khem Karan, Pakistan in Chawinda''' — but none decisive enough to alter the ultimate result of the war. A ceasefire was called by the UN on September 22 and the Tashkent Declaration was signed between Ayub and Shastri in January 1966, thus bringing an end to hostilities.</blockquote></s> Blocked sock |
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<s>*[[WT:MILHIST]] notified.--[[Special:Contributions/101.53.225.41|101.53.225.41]] ([[User talk:101.53.225.41|talk]]) 20:06, 14 August 2022 (UTC) |
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Cohen and Dasgupta, who are strategic experts, have called it a "debacle" for India. A bit overstated, but not far off the mark if you read the detailed military assessments. Yes, Pakistan was on the ''verge'' of defeat. But India wasn't able to take adantage of that since its own armour had been ''sent back for refitting''.<ref>{{citation |last=Barua |first=Pradeep |title=The State at War in South Asia |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=FIIQhuAOGaIC&pg=PA191 |year=2005 |publisher=U of Nebraska Press |isbn=0-8032-1344-1 |page=192}}</ref> India threw infantry regiments in front of Pakistani shelling from Chawinda. They got cut to pieces and ran away (literally!).<ref>{{citation |last=Singh |first=Jogindar |title=Behind the Scene: An Analysis of India's Military Operations, 1947-1971 |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=toheLRVgjLsC&pg=PA219 |year=1993 |publisher=Lancer Publishers |isbn=978-1-897829-20-2 |pages=219}}</ref> |
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'''Comment:''' I also have noticed that [https://www.jstor.org/stable/41393247 this source] is mentioned in the result field even though the source is talking about a stalemate at the whole Sialkot Front, not in this battle which was a part of Sialkot Front. --[[Special:Contributions/101.53.225.41|101.53.225.41]] ([[User talk:101.53.225.41|talk]]) 20:05, 14 August 2022 (UTC)</s> Blocked sock |
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<s>'''Comment:''' As {{U|Mar4d}} has pointed out. Adding the link to previous RFC [[Talk:Battle_of_Chawinda/Archive_1#DID_the_battle_lead_to_Major_Pakistani_victory?|2015 RfC]], here the consensus was for "Pakistani victory" but then it was removed with a one-sided 2018 "RfC". [[Special:Contributions/101.53.225.41|101.53.225.41]] ([[User talk:101.53.225.41|talk]])</s> Blocked sock |
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When the Indian prime minister asked the Army chief, do you want a couple more days to achieve your "spectacular victory", the Army chief replied, "no we are done" (my paraphrasing).<ref>Kalyanaraman, [https://idsa.in/specialfeature/TheContextoftheCeaseFireDecisioninthe1965_skalyanaraman_210915 The Context of the Cease-Fire Decision in the 1965 India-Pakistan War], Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses, 21 September 2015.</ref> So, Johri's idea that Pakistan "got saved" by the ceasefire doesn't hold water. In 20th century wars, you don't get an infinite amount of time to do your job. Either you get it done or call it off. And look at those casualty numbers! It would be considered criminal if it happend today. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 10:11, 14 April 2021 (UTC) |
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'''Comment''' Could I suggest that you provide fuller bibliographic details for the sources cited above. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 02:32, 15 August 2022 (UTC) It would also be useful to indicate which of these sources were not considered in the course of the previous RfC. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 02:44, 15 August 2022 (UTC) |
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*It looks to me as if there is scope for a further RfC about this, to confirm or overturn the previous one.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 10:28, 14 April 2021 (UTC) |
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===Survey (Should the result be changed to Indian defeat or Pakistani victory)=== |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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*'''Comment''' sources that describe India failing to achieve operational goals at this battle do no necessarily conflict with the "inconclusive" interpretation. I'd be curious if there are any military journals that look at this outcome. Since this is generally a contested subject, I suggest avoiding newspapers like The Independent or The Diplomat. The independent even says "what has been regarded as a victory" which begs the question, regarded by who? -[[User:Indy beetle|Indy beetle]] ([[User talk:Indy beetle|talk]]) 20:24, 14 August 2022 (UTC) |
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<s>::The sources that describe it as India's failure they at best fall in the Indian Defeat interpretation. If editors disagree with adding newspaper then I have no problem with it.-[[Special:Contributions/101.53.225.41|101.53.225.41]] ([[User talk:101.53.225.41|talk]])</s> Blocked sock |
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*101.53.225.41, what is your [[WP:RFCBRIEF|brief and neutral statement]]? At over 8,000 bytes, the statement above (from the {{tlx|rfc}} tag to the next timestamp) is far too long for {{user|Legobot}} to handle, and so it is not being shown correctly at [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/History and geography]]. The complex formatting may be exacerbating the problem. The RfC may also not be publicised through [[WP:FRS]] until a shorter statement is provided. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] 🌹 ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 22:00, 14 August 2022 (UTC) |
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**{{to|Redrose64}} fixed format of initial statement. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' , [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>18:20, 17 August 2022 (UTC)</small> |
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**:{{ty}} --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] 🌹 ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 05:26, 18 August 2022 (UTC) |
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**::''my pleasure!'' '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:100%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</span>]]''''' <small>10:34, 18 August 2022 (UTC)</small> |
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*'''Inconclusive/Speedy close''' [[MOS:MIL]] is the applicable guidance, with ''X victory'' and ''Inconclusive'' but not ''X defeat'' being permitted parameters for the result field. The parameter should represent the consensus of [good quality, independent] sources. We are explicitly cautioned against [[WP:OR]]. We should also consider the "immediate result" and not subsequent events that may have ''resulted from''. {{U|Indy beetle}} would suggest avoiding newspapers. I would agree. Furthermore, I would be cautious in using popularist histories (ie Bloomsbury and Osprey). The OP would state: {{tq|Now in the light of the sources mentioned above should the result be changed to Indian Defeat or Pakistani Victory?}} However, a goodly number of these source were explicitly considered during the preceding RfC only 18 months ago. I am not seeing what is new or changed that might reasonably lead to a different outcome. The sources would clearly indicate that the Indians failed to achieve their objective. However, this is not the same as a defeat for one side or a victory for the other. Leaving aside the newspaper sources, only two make anything like a categorical statement. Zologa would say: {{tq|the 25th Cavalry at Chawinda, where they defeated their better equipped but clumsier foes}}. But the 25th Cav was only part of the Pakistani force and the statement would be referring to an early phase of the battle, so we can scratch that one. Spencer Tucker (''A Global Chronology of Conflict: From the Ancient World to the Modern Middle East, Volume 2'') would say: {{tq|The Pakistanis are ultimately able to push most of the Indian forces back across the international border. Pakistan is the victor in the battle.}} The problem is, the article is not telling us this and that India still retained control of Pakistani territory? The OP would ask us to read the other sources and draw a conclusion that this is either a Pakistani victory or an Indian defeat. However, when the sources aren't specifically saying as much, that would be [[WP:SYNTH]]. On the other hand, we do have two or three sources that are specifically calling it ''inconclusive'', ''indecisive'' or a ''stalemate'' (the immediate result following Chawinda). Both sides got a bloody nose and lacked the will to continue. One side withdrew and the other side couldn't follow. There is nothing new to discuss. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 04:55, 15 August 2022 (UTC) |
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**Without being too familiar with the particulars, I would add that an option is always to add a bullet point under "Inconclusive" that says "See Outcome section". -[[User:Indy beetle|Indy beetle]] ([[User talk:Indy beetle|talk]]) 05:58, 15 August 2022 (UTC) |
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* '''Oppose''' {{sbb}} taken in their overall balance, and mostly in particular, these sources endorse "Inconclusive", and none speaks of a clear victory/defeat AFAI can see - without WP:OR interpretation of their content. {{tq|sources that describe India failing to achieve operational goals at this battle do no necessarily conflict with … "inconclusive"}}. I endorse everything Indy beetle & Cinderella157 say below. [[User:Pincrete|Pincrete]] ([[User talk:Pincrete|talk]]) 06:54, 15 August 2022 (UTC) |
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==RfC: What was the outcome of the Battle of Chawinda?== |
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{{closed rfc top |
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| status = |
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| result = This discussion is best described as a '''no consensus'''. The numbers are more or less even, and the two sides' positions are not entirely refuted by the other side. Those voting to label it a Pakistani victory said that RS agreed that India failed to advance its military objectives, and Pakistan advanced theirs. Those opposing the label say that the best available sources do not explicitly label it a "Pakistani victory"; many of these editors also believed that reliable sources find the battle to be inconclusive. Ultimately there was disagreement on what the consensus of reliable, scholarly sources is.{{pb}}The question then posed is what this no consensus result means -- does it revert to the 2015 RfC or the 2018 talk page discussion. Following the 2018 talk discussion, the "Inconclusive" result seems to have been stable for the longest period of time, but was subject to frequent edit wars, with several editors blocked for sockpuppetry. It also has to be noted that the article is not overly active, and changes can be missed. Generally, consensus reached in discussions that are more widely advertised, to a broader range of editors, and received a higher degree of participation (typically RfCs), take priority over a talk page discussion of a small number of involved participants. However, consensus can change. Given that for three years the RfC consensus has not been enforced and has actively been defied, I'm minded to consider it obsolete. However it's a tricky one; the sources cited in the article are all - bar one - pre-2015, so the argument advanced by some participants that this change in consensus is due to newer sources does not seem to hold water. On balance, I'd say the status quo is "Inconclusive", also considering the slightly greater numbers for that position in this discussion, but I'd suggest a wider policy discussion, or review at AN, for discussion of this point if this determination is disputed.{{pb}}Finally, on a personal note, I don't know whether editors have considered this, but it may be smarter to drop the "____ victory"/"Inconclusive" label altogether and just bullet point the clear verifiable outcomes. Surely all military articles don't require a 'X side won' label. [[User:ProcrastinatingReader|ProcrastinatingReader]] ([[User talk:ProcrastinatingReader|talk]]) 20:22, 31 May 2021 (UTC) |
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}} |
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* '''Previous RFC stands''' - Two sections above, you find a six-month long RfC barely a year ago, with wide-ranging comments from a variety of editors. It came out with the result of "no consensus"/"inconclusive". What has changed so that a new RfC is warranted again? [[WP:RFCBEFORE]] is not satisfied. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 21:03, 15 August 2022 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''' In before we get further comments along the lines of "but past RfC was inconclusive"; the question wasn't answered then, and the closure itself acknowledged this; again, which of the multiple sources available on the subject clearly negated the Indian military's tactical failure in this battle? Quoting one of the participants from the last RfC, the ''"Indian military were unable to take Chawinda"''. '''[[User:Mar4d|<span style="color: green;">Mar4d</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Mar4d|<span style="color: green;">talk</span>]]) 14:17, 16 August 2022 (UTC) |
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:: Link to the [[Talk:Battle_of_Chawinda/Archive_1#DID_the_battle_lead_to_Major_Pakistani_victory?|2015 RfC]], where the consensus was for "Pakistani victory" before it was removed post the one-sided 2018 "RfC". '''[[User:Mar4d|<span style="color: green;">Mar4d</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Mar4d|<span style="color: green;">talk</span>]]) 14:22, 16 August 2022 (UTC) |
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*'''Pakistani victory.''' Sources have been clear all along that it was the overall conflict that was "inconclusive". The final battle of that conflict, at Chawinda, was a decisive victory for Pakistan. Had it not been so, then the overall outcome would not have been so "inconclusive", imho. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' , [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>18:34, 17 August 2022 (UTC)</small> |
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*I was the closer of the 2015 RfC, and I've been asked to comment here by a message on my talk page. When I closed the 2015 RfC I knew nothing about the Battle of Chawinda, but since then I've learned a lot about it, having been required to defend my close against attempts to overturn it and having read a lot of commentary and sources.{{pb}}The battle of Chawinda was the final battle of an inconclusive war. Territorial changes after the battle were minimal and not material, and the Indian side likes to portray the Battle of Chawinda as a draw. This case is arguable, and if you cherry-pick the right reliable sources and pretend the others don't exist, you can justify the outcome of the 2018 RfC. But really, this ignores the fact that India outnumbered and outgunned Pakistan at Chawinda. The Indian Army attempted a set piece assault on fortified positions and was bloodily repulsed. The Pakistani side likes to portray it as a glorious last stand that held off the enemy onslaught until peace was achieved.{{pb}}Personally, I think the Pakistani side of it is less wrong than the Indian side. Pakistan was trying to hold India off, and succeeded. This was the best result for Pakistan that was militarily possible.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 19:03, 17 August 2022 (UTC) |
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**Hear hear, well put – much to be said for the ability of people to [[The Territorial Imperative|defend their home territory]]. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' , [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>01:14, 18 August 2022 (UTC)</small> |
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*'''Comment''' For the record, I am confident that the IP editor who started this RfC is an indef-blocked sockpuppeteer. [[User:Girth Summit|<span style="font-family:Impact;color:#006400;">Girth</span> <span style="font-family:Impact;color:#4B0082;">Summit</span>]][[User talk:Girth Summit|<sub style="font-family:Segoe print;color:blue;"> (blether)</sub>]] 11:00, 18 August 2022 (UTC) |
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{{abottom}} |
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== RFC on the Result - Pakistani Victory/Indian defeat == |
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In 2015, the community decided at [[Talk:Battle_of_Chawinda/Archive_1#DID_the_battle_lead_to_Major_Pakistani_victory?|this RfC]] that Pakistan won the Battle of Chawinda. Pro-Indian editors disputed the RfC outcome on the administrator's noticeboard, and the outcome of this RfC close review was to [[Special:Permalink/644921474#Reviewing RfC closure : Battle of Chawinda|confirm]] the Pakistani victory. In 2018, a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Battle_of_Chawinda/Archive_2#Result talk page consensus] decided that the battle was "inconclusive". At issue in this RfC is the question of which of the previous consensuses takes precedence. |
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{{atop|RfC started by a ban evading sock, closing it per [[WP:DENY]]. '''[[User:Aman.kumar.goel|Aman Kumar Goel]]''' <sup>(''[[User talk:Aman.kumar.goel|Talk]]'')</sup> 20:33, 8 September 2022 (UTC)}} |
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<s>As already mentioned, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Battle_of_Chawinda/Archive_1#DID_the_battle_lead_to_Major_Pakistani_victory? an RFC concluded] that it was a Pakistani Victory. The decision was further reviewed and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=644921474#Reviewing_RfC_closure_:_Battle_of_Chawinda consensus] was once again in favor of the RFC - Pakistani Victory. |
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The participants of this short talk page [[Talk:Battle of Chawinda/Archive 2#Result|discussion]] concluded the battle was inconclusive. |
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'''Note:''' The Battle of Chawinda was the final engagement of the Second Kashmir War. It is common ground that the Second Kashmir War was inconclusive. The decision needed here is not about the outcome of the campaign, but the outcome of this particular battle within it. |
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Should the result of the Battle of Chawinda be "Pakistani Victory" or "Indian defeat"? [[User:Joooshhh|Joooshhh]] ([[User talk:Joooshhh|talk]]) 19:29, 1 September 2022 (UTC) |
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Procedurally speaking, there is dispute about whether RfC nominators should sign their nomination. I'm choosing to sign this one.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 12:56, 15 April 2021 (UTC) |
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* '''Pakistani Victory''' It's cut and dry - as the reliable sources state - the Indians failed to attack, the Pakistanis successful defended themselves. [[User:Joooshhh|Joooshhh]] ([[User talk:Joooshhh|talk]]) 19:58, 1 September 2022 (UTC)</s> |
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*[[WT:MILHIST]] notified.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 12:59, 15 April 2021 (UTC) |
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* '''Close RfC''' This seems ridiculous to make an RfC after a block evading IP created one a few weeks prior and now an account with 17 edits on a page that is [[WP:ECP|ECP]]? This does not seem like the correct protocol. – [[User:The Grid|<span style="color:navy">The Grid</span>]] ([[User talk:The Grid|<span style="color:navy">talk</span>]]) 22:12, 1 September 2022 (UTC) |
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*:{{small|{{Yo|S Marshall}} where is there a dispute about nominators signing their noms? - [[User:Thewolfchild|<span style="color: black">wolf</span>]] 16:04, 15 April 2021 (UTC)}} |
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{{abottom}} |
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*::{{small|{{Yo|Thewolfchild}} [[Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Archive 17#Signing RFC's|Here]], for example.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 16:10, 15 April 2021 (UTC)}} |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 December 2023 == |
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:I would point to the guidance at [[MOS:MIL#Infobox templates]] that gives force to [[Template:Infobox military conflict]] and the guidance therein, in respect to the result parameter. It specifically limits the options that should be used. Regards, [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 11:35, 27 April 2021 (UTC) |
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{{Edit extended-protected|Battle of Chawinda|answered=yes}} |
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===Survey=== |
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Please add the following sections |
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==Other 1971 battles in the vicinity== |
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*'''Pakistani victory'''. A quick skim of some sources reinforces those cited above and it seems to be fairly clear. The sources agree that in this battle the Indians failed to achieve their objectives and the Pakistanis succeeded in achieving theirs. [[User:Gog the Mild|Gog the Mild]] ([[User talk:Gog the Mild|talk]]) 14:49, 15 April 2021 (UTC) |
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* [[Battle of Asal Uttar]] |
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*'''Keep the status-quo as is'''. Borne out by multiple reliable sources. And when a consensus has been changed, it goes without saying that the new one takes precedence, moreso when it has enjoyed wide acceptance. More particularly, the latter discussion dismissed as unreliable the very sources that the RFC took for granted, and no argument seems to have been made against that. [[User:Srijanx22|Srijanx22]] ([[User_talk:Srijanx22|talk]]) 15:02, 15 April 2021 (UTC) |
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* [[Battle of Chumb]] |
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*:Well, let's make that now. The talk page discussion was initiated by Indian editor Razer2115, who contended that: (1) A source was unreliable because that source was itself based on Pakistani sources (but he doesn't say why he believes that, or how it affects the source's reliability); (2) The fact that a source says it was a "debacle" for India doesn't mean that Pakistan won (a pathetic argument that we can safely disregard); (3) He couldn't find the Zaloga source, so it should be inadmissible (which is directly counter to our core [[WP:V|verifiability policy]], see [[WP:SOURCEACCESS]]); and (4) the Amin source is unreliable because it's by a foreign policy specialist rather than a military one (even though his ''own argument'' is that the battle was ended by a UN-mandated ceasefire). With these four rather dubious points, there was agreement from Indian editor RaviC, confirmed sockpuppet MyLord, Indian editor Sdmarathe, editor of undisclosed nationality 1990'sguy, Indian editor Adamgerber80, and Indian editor DBigXray. In other words, that whole discussion consisted of Indian editors deciding that India hadn't lost, on the basis of arguments that the previous and much more thorough RfC ''had already examined and rejected''.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 16:06, 15 April 2021 (UTC) |
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* [[Battle of Chawinda]] |
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::*Read [[WP:ASPERSIONS]]. Your analysis of peoples' comments based on their nationalities is violates [[WP:DE]] as well. What really matters is that comments by these users outweigh your grossly misleading personal views and you have provided no rebuttal for that so far. '''[[User:Aman.kumar.goel|Aman Kumar Goel]]''' <sup>(''[[User talk:Aman.kumar.goel|Talk]]'')</sup> 02:32, 16 April 2021 (UTC) |
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* [[Battle of Ichogil Bund]] |
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*:::I am well aware of those rules, and it is clearly neither disruptive nor racist to point out that everyone who doesn't think India lost the battle is Indian.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 08:31, 16 April 2021 (UTC) |
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* [[Battle of Kasur]] |
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::::::Are you also including reliable sources that don't say Pakistan won this battle? In any case, your aspersions are indeed getting more disrupted since you are coming off as a case of [[WP:CIR]]. You should [[WP:LISTEN]] to what others say instead of double downing with baseless aspersions. [[User:Srijanx22|Srijanx22]] ([[User_talk:Srijanx22|talk]]) 11:11, 16 April 2021 (UTC) |
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* [[Pul Kanjri#Pul|Battle of Pul Kanjri]] |
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:::::::Wow, bluelinking CIR in response to that? Just... wow.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 12:22, 16 April 2021 (UTC) |
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* '''Indian defeat''' (or <s>{{gray|Pakistani victory}}</s>) per independent sources cited by {{u|S Marshall}}. Sources agree that Pakistan's military did not yield Chawinda to India's military. Sources also agree that India's military did not attack and hold Chawinda. Not one editor has been able to produce any reliable source that disputes these two facts. So while the war's result was inconclusive, the Battle of Chawinda was a clear <s>{{gray|victory for Pakistan}}</s> defeat for India. So to answer the RfC's question, it is the 2015 consensus that should take precedence and be upheld. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>19:25, 15 April 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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*'''Oppose any change to infobox'''. The fighting was ended by a UN-brokered cease-fire, [https://books.google.com/books?id=oFP5DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA160&dq=%22+chawinda%22+ceasefire&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwio7Oel8fvvAhXSb30KHXwdDYAQ6AEwB3oECAUQAw#v=onepage&q=%22%20chawinda%22%20ceasefire&f=false as per this book] (p.160) by Jeremy Black, about as reliable as they come. Neither side seems to have scored a definitive victory, unlike the case in regard to the [[Battle of Asal Uttar|battle at Asal Uttar]], where the "{{tq|Indian Centurions defeated the 264 tanks of Pakistan's First Armored Division, mostly Pattons}}", as Black states on the same page in his book. While the Pakistanis did put up a comparatively better show at Chawinda, as Black notes, none of these many sources have interpreted that to be a victory for Pakistan. The Indians continued to camp therein and continued to have possession of more than 500 square kilometers of Pakistani territory in that area. Regards, '''[[User:Aman.kumar.goel|Aman Kumar Goel]]''' <sup>(''[[User talk:Aman.kumar.goel|Talk]]'')</sup> 02:32, 16 April 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Inconclusive''' Firstly, we must disentangle what the sources say about this particular battle from the greater campaign. Defence is one of the four phases of war. A victory is not achieved from defence but from subsequent counter-attack. A failure to achieve the objectives of an attack "may" constitute a defeat for the attacker but does not necessarily constitute a victory for a defender. However, this is not for us to determine but for the sources to determine. Further, it is not for us to reach conclusions such as: when author X says such-and-such, he was meaning that it was a victory for Y. It is not up to us to put words into the mouth of a source because of how we might interpret their meaning. That would be [[WP:SYNTH]]. Stating that an outcome is "inconclusive" is less problematic if the consensus of sources is not to attribute victory to one side or the other. |
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:The role of the infobox is to summarise the article. The outcome should be discussed in the "aftermath" section (or similar), where the views expressed in reliable sources can be summarised. Where there are conflicting views of the result, a balanced account should be given, including the reasons given in the sources for reaching different conclusions. This has not occurred in this article. Further, it is not the role of the infoxbox to be a substitute for this. There are some six sources cited in respect to the result in the infobox and only one specifically refers to an Indian defeat (but not a Pakistani victory). Unfortunately, I was only able to see a snippet of the text in Google Books and couldn't determine the context of the statement. If we were to report this as a "Pakistani victory" it should reflect the consensus among authors of good quality reliable sources that explicitly describe it as a victory. This is not the case. On the otherhand, the consensus of the sources is that it was "inconclusive", being both explicitly stated and because a victory is not explicitly stated. In any case, the body of the article should be improved in respect to the outcome, in which case, "see Aftermath" could be a better option. Regards, [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 02:39, 16 April 2021 (UTC) |
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::Your explanation appears to be very... wanting. {{gi|A victory is not achieved from defence ...}}, and yet there are literally thousands of times in the past when it was a good defense that led to victory for the defenders. {{gi|... failure to achieve the objectives of an attack "may" constitute a defeat for the attacker but does not necessarily constitute a victory for a defender.}} Sorry, but that also is a ??? in my book. And it is not [[WP:SYNTH]] to conclude that when sources say "Pakistan's military did not yield Chawinda to India's military," and "India's military did not attack, take and hold Chawinda" that India's military was defeated and Pakistan's military was victorious. Nobody's putting words in the mouths of the reliable sources, which are crystal clear on these two facts. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>04:49, 16 April 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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:::Wanting? A good defence can lead to victory - when it is followed by attack. In this instance, the counter-attack was curtailed. If "victory" is winning; "not loosing" is not the same as victory. There are semantics as to what constitutes victory and these are for the sources to determine when ascribing victory to one side or another - if they do. It is clear that the Indian attack failed but no good quality sources explicitly describe this as a Pakistani victory. The statement is: {{tq|...when sources say "Pakistan's military did not yield Chawinda to India's military," and "India's military did not attack, take and hold Chawinda" that India's military was defeated and Pakistan's military was victorious.}} By this, a WP editor is observing facts and applying criteria that they have chosen to reach a conclusion. This is the very definition of [[WP:SYNTH]]. Regards, [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 09:26, 17 April 2021 (UTC) |
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== See also == |
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::::We'll have to agree to disagree on this. Let's say you lived in a castle, and surrounding that castle were an army that wants your castle. To take your castle would be pivotal in a greater war your people are having with that army's country. But your army successfully wards off any sign of attack by the other army. You soon learn that the other country has asked for an armistice to end the war, and you and all in your castle agree to it. Would you not be celebrating that evening? What would you be celebrating? a tie? No, you would be celebrating the fact that you held onto your castle against the invading army. You would celebrate a victory in the battle to save your castle, and you would celebrate the fact that you did not lose the overall war, which will go down in history as "inconclusive". Your victory to save your castle was the decisive factor in stopping the overall war! Chawinda was like your castle, a clearcut victory that led to cessation of hostilities. That is precisely what objective people understand when they read the reliable sources about the Battle of Chawinda. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>15:44, 17 April 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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* [[Indo-Pakistan Wars]] |
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::::: By this medieval "castle theory", we would have to describe the [[Indo-Pakistani War of 1965]] as a victory for India since it protected its "castle" from a Pakistani invasion. But we don't do that. We call it a "stalemate". -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 19:28, 17 April 2021 (UTC) |
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* [[Operation Grand Slam]] |
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::::::Not according to the reliable sources. Those describe Chawinda in terms of the medieval "castle theory", and then they go on to say that India, rather than do the "unwise" thing and pursue Chawinda, petitioned the UN to declare a stalemate. The Chawinda "castle dwellers" agreed to it, which according to reliable sources resulted in an "inconclusive" end of the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965. The Chawinda "castle dwellers{{'"}} victory in battle brought about the cessation of violence for a time. On these matters the reliable sources are crystal clear, and anyone who can read with understanding would be able to discern this. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>19:49, 17 April 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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::::::: Ah, so, it is the UN that declared a "stalemate". Little do I know! But by what definition of "reliable sources" are [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Battle_of_Chawinda&oldid=1018204016#cite_note-7 these sources] unreliable? -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 20:54, 17 April 2021 (UTC) |
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Thank you. |
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:::::It does not matter how I, as the castellan, view my successful defence of the castle. What matters here is how it is judged by history as reported in (good quality) reliable sources. Regards, [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 00:09, 18 April 2021 (UTC) |
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[[Special:Contributions/119.74.238.54|119.74.238.54]] ([[User talk:119.74.238.54|talk]]) 03:53, 18 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' please provide [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:EEp --> [[User:Spintendo|<span style="font-size:85%;color:#f00;border:2.5px solid red;border-radius:15px;"> <b>Spintendo</b> </span>]] 04:32, 28 December 2023 (UTC) |
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*'''Pakistan victory.'''Based on the above discussion I agree that Pakistan won the battle of Chawinda. Successfully defending and winning a battle are the same. [[User:Markewilliams|Markewilliams]] ([[User talk:Markewilliams|talk]]) 13:09, 16 April 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Pakistan victory.''' Reported by reliable sources on how the battle unfolded. [[User:Sea Ane|Sea Ane]] ([[User talk:Sea Ane|talk]]) 03:29, 17 April 2021 (UTC) |
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:*They don't. You are engaging in [[WP:TE]] with that misrepresentation. [[User:Abhishek0831996|Abhishek0831996]] ([[User talk:Abhishek0831996|talk]]) 09:30, 17 April 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Inconclusive'''. I would be less than frank if I did not say I am thoroughly unimpressed with the hollow arguments provided by the supporters of Pakistani victory above. Elements of victory and defeat are difficult to define, especially when it comes to battles like this one that ends with a formal ceasefire, but it's most certainly not our job to make those judgments by drawing inferences or [[WP:OR|making our own interpretations]] but that of the historians... Aman goel provides an excellent source [https://books.google.ca/books?id=oFP5DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA160 that] in no uncertain terms state that the battle of Chawinda ended only with the ceasefire, but does not state that it resulted in a Pakistani victory. The infobox sources do make those judgments--that the battle's outcome was inconclusive or indecisive. [[User:Abhishek0831996|Abhishek0831996]] ([[User talk:Abhishek0831996|talk]]) 09:30, 17 April 2021 (UTC) |
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*''' Maintain status-quo''' was a nightmare before any change without real new sources would again put the article back to dark ages, the current version seems fine --[[User:Shrikanthv|Shrikanthv]] ([[User talk:Shrikanthv|talk]]) 09:46, 17 April 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Pakistani victory''', as agreed in the previous RfC.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 12:49, 18 April 2021 (UTC) |
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:* You can do better than agreeing with yourself given the [[WP:BADNAC]] was done by you. '''[[User:Aman.kumar.goel|Aman Kumar Goel]]''' <sup>(''[[User talk:Aman.kumar.goel|Talk]]'')</sup> 13:12, 18 April 2021 (UTC) |
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*::Others have suggested that my previous close was bad, which is why the community reviewed it [[Special:Permalink/644921474#Reviewing RfC closure : Battle of Chawinda|here]]. You will note from that diff that my close was ''unanimously'' confirmed on the Administrator's Noticeboard, and I put it to you that the Pakistani victory was the only possible policy-compliant outcome of that discussion. There was prolific socking on both sides, but I found it particularly ironic that [[User:OccultZone]] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ABattle_of_Chawinda&type=revision&diff=643592134&oldid=642750934 removed] a bunch of sock comments that favoured Pakistan just before closure. Naturally, he allowed the edits by his own socks, [[User:VandVictory]], [[User:నిజానికి]], and [[User:SamuelDay1]], to stand. I certainly agree with you that this article has a long history of bad faith editing, which is why this discussion will require closure by a previously uninvolved closer of great experience and wisdom.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 13:37, 18 April 2021 (UTC) |
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:::*Nevertheless, most people agreed that Pakistan didn't win the battle and {{noping|Faizan}} (a prolific sockmaster who is still blocked) voted to support your closure which tells a lot. Given your deep feelings about the subject, you were the wrong person to close the discussion. If you really know the meaning of ''unanimously'' then consider [[Talk:Battle_of_Chawinda/Archive_2#Result reading this discussion]] where there was unanimous agreement that infobox must not mislead readers with unsourced and misleading opinions and given its longevity it easily outweighs the outdated and poorly closed RfC. '''[[User:Aman.kumar.goel|Aman Kumar Goel]]''' <sup>(''[[User talk:Aman.kumar.goel|Talk]]'')</sup> 16:44, 18 April 2021 (UTC) |
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*::::Six years ago when I closed that, I knew nothing about the Battle of Chawinda and indeed I'd never heard of the Second Kashmir War. I had never edited in the topic area. During the course of my close, I read the sources presented, and since then, I have been required to defend my close. In the process of doing so, I have read enough text about the matter to become educated about it, and I have noticed that the better sources that are actually about this battle (rather than the campaign) describe it as a "debacle" or a "bloodbath" for the Indian army. I do think that this means India lost, and I do think that's the same as saying that Pakistan won; but some years ago when I closed the RfC that you wish to overturn, I had not formed that view. It was appropriate and reasonable for me to close it at the time.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 23:04, 18 April 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Stalemate/Inconclusive''' Lack of reliable sources term it as a victory for either countries. That said, the overall victor of the war was India but this battle was a clear stalemate. --[[User:Yoonadue|Yoonadue]] ([[User talk:Yoonadue|talk]]) 16:52, 18 April 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Inconclusive''' I fail to see any convincing proof that "Pakistan victory" is the consensus of independent reliable sources (which is what NPOV would require). [[User:RandomCanadian|RandomCanadian]] ([[User talk:RandomCanadian|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/RandomCanadian|contribs]]) 18:12, 19 April 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Pakistani victory''' It makes more sense. Like all individual battles, each one's accurate outcome should be noted, even if the overall average of an entire war is different from the individual battle.--[[User:AdillAdell|AdillAdell]] ([[User talk:AdillAdell|talk]]) 19:09, 19 April 2021 (UTC) |
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* '''Inconclusive''' or '''Stalemate''' - "Battle of Chawinda" does not necessarily mean a "Battle ''for'' Chawinda". The Indian forces were interested in occupying as much Pakistani territory as they could, in order to use it as a bargaining counter during later negotiations.<ref>{{cite journal |last1=Chaudhuri |first1=Rudra |title=Indian "Strategic Restraint" Revisited: The Case of the 1965 India-Pakistan War |journal=India Review |volume=17 |issue=1 |year=2018 |issn=1473-6489 |doi=10.1080/14736489.2018.1415277}}: "India’s aim was to threaten Lahore, potentially capture Pakistani territory (to be used as leverage in political bargaining in the future), and “destroy the war potential” of Pakistani forces between Lahore and Sialkot.[82: Prasad and Thapliyal, The India Pakistan War of 1965, 131]"</ref><ref>{{cite journal |last1=Raghavan |first1=Srinath |title=Civil–Military Relations in India: The China Crisis and After |journal=Journal of Strategic Studies |volume=32 |issue=1 |year=2009 |pages=149–175 |issn=0140-2390 |doi=10.1080/01402390802407616}}: "The Prime Minister identified the objectives as defeating the Pakistani attempt to capture Kashmir; destroying the offensive power of Pakistan's armed forces; and ''occupying only minimum necessary Pakistani territory'' for these purposes, which would subsequently be vacated.[76: C.P. Srivastava, ''Lal Bahadur Shastri: A Life of Truth in Politics'' (New Delhi: OUP 1996), 228.]" (emphasis added)</ref> The Pakistani forces were obviously interested in blocking them. The clash happened to take place at Chawinda, but Chawinda itself was not a goal of any kind. The Indians could not take Chawinda. Their advance got halted. These facts are not contested. But neither were they "beaten" so as to allow the Pakistanis to take back their territory. Whatever territory the Indians occupied prior to Chawinda, they continued to hold until the negotiations. {{tq|Pakistan agreed generally with the depth of penetration claimed by India.}}<ref>{{citation |last=Brines |first=Russell |title=The Indo-Pakistani Conflict |url=https://archive.org/details/TheIndoPakistaniConflict/page/n345/mode/1up |year=1968 |publisher=Pall Mall P. |isbn=978-0-269-16232-9 |via=archive.org |p=343}}</ref> So, this fact is also not disputed. All that is disputed is the meaning of the battle. |
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: The Pakistanis and their partisans want to make representations to imply that Pakistan was winning and it was India that was saved by the ceasefire. The facts do not bear this out. {{tq|The US defense attaché in Karachi argued, “if the Indians press their attacks, the Pakistanis will be faced with the possibility of a complete and humiliating collapse of their army and air craft.”}}{{sfn|Chaudhuri|2018|p=65}} The press conference of Pakistani president on 15 September {{tq|instead of showing a defiant and resolute stance, degenerated into Ayub appealing for Johnson and the US government to intervene in the dispute. This appeal showed clearly to the world that Pakistan was now desperate to end the war despite all its official statements to date.}}<ref>{{citation |last=Bajwa |first=Farooq |title=From Kutch to Tashkent: The Indo-Pakistan War of 1965 |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=5a0NAQAAQBAJ |date=2013 |publisher=C. Hurst & Co |location=London |ISBN=978-1-84904-230-7 |p=291}}</ref> In the end, Pakistan accepted an ''unconditional'' ceasefire, the only kind of ceasefire India would agree to. |
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: Three [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chawinda#cite_note-7 scholarly sources] have been provided for stating it as a stalemate, including a Pakistani analyst. The [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chawinda#cite_note-victory-6 corresponding sources] provided for Pakistani victory are weak in my view. Zaloga's coverage is quite wrong in details, as explained below under '''Sources''', and the other two sources make only vague statements. In the overall context of the war, this battle is what broke Pakistan's resolve to continue fighting. And that is all that mattered for India.{{efn|Scholars like Steve Cohen would have expected India to do more. Being a larger country, it would have been expected to decisively beat Pakistan so that it couldn't raise its head again. The failure to do so was a strategic failure for India. Perhaps. But many of us also think that India's priorities in focusing on economic development were the right ones.}} -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 05:35, 20 April 2021 (UTC) |
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:: Note added: I do not regard the old 2015 RfC as valid any more since the state of knowledge has improved (both among scholars and Wikipedians). -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 18:07, 2 May 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Inconclusive''' Special care should be taken cases were a winner is not clear and in this case it is indeed inconclusive. [[User:Riddhidev BISWAS|Riddhidev BISWAS]] ([[User talk:Riddhidev BISWAS|talk]]) 18:44, 20 April 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Stalemate'''. The sources that User:Kautilya3 mentioned just above suggest just that. I don't see how it can be a Pakistani victory (even though Indian forces were halted) when India captured Pakistani territory. Clearly wasn't a victory at either end. --[[User:Rsrikanth05|Rsrikanth05]] ([[User talk:Rsrikanth05|talk]]) 19:58, 21 April 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Inconclusive'''. No evidence that Chawinda was a Pakistani victory. Of note is that reliable sources have overwhelmingly called this battle to be inconclusive or indecisive, and rightly so. The Pakistanis did not gain anything from the long-drawn out fighting on this front, which was brought to an end by the ceasefire brokered by the UN. Both sides suffered heavy casualties.[https://books.google.com/books?id=kFnBDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA82&dq=The+M47+and+M48+Patton+Tanks+%22Chawinda%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjSvcLosYPwAhX4zjgGHWSpDtwQ6AEwBHoECAYQAw#v=onepage&q=The%20M47%20and%20M48%20Patton%20Tanks%20%22Chawinda%22&f=false][https://books.google.com/books?id=9vDvpB_sqB0C&pg=PA285#v=onepage&q&f=false] The Pakistani army did not rescue its territory from the clutches of the Indian army, which indisputably brought Pakistan to its knees in the later negotiations as it accepted the [[Tashkent Agreement]], which entailed having a return to the status quo, which was a far cry from Pakistan's declared war aims, and consequently brought loss of face to the Pakistani state. [[User:SignificantPBD|SignificantPBD]] ([[User talk:SignificantPBD|talk]]) 11:43, 22 April 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Pakistani victory''', per several editors above. [[User:Idealigic|Idealigic]] ([[User talk:Idealigic|talk]]) 11:16, 26 April 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Inconclusive'''. The assessment that the battle was inconclusive is borne out by reliable scholarly sources, so this really is a no brainer. Wikipedia cannot differ from the scholarly sources in stating the outcome. Scholarly accounts of the war have invariably focused on the fighting in the Sialkot theatre, for it was here that the Indian thrust had been relentless, cutting through the Pakistani defences, and in the process carrying the war deep into the territory of West Pakistan, eventually culminating in the Battle of Chawinda. This backdrop alone demands that people who hold strong views on the question either one way or the other provide reliable scholarly sources that unambiguously support the position they assert in this consensus building discussion. Surprisingly enough, and telling at the same time, the protagonist of Pakistani victory have so far failed to come up with any reliable scholarly source with respect to thier claim concerning the outcome of the battle. Indeed, the hollowness of thier argument is most soundingly betrayed by their resort to [[WP:OR]]. This utter inability to provide sources is telling and indicative of the fact that the notion of Pakistani victory has no support in reliable sources. Indeed, historians have written at length about the Battle of Chawinda, and yet not one of them have considered the battle to be a Pakistani victory. The view is simply not supported by scholars.{{paragraph}}On the other hand, we are looking at the scholarly sources that unambiguously state that a ceasefire put an end to the fighting on this front, and that the results were ''inconclusive''. So where is the dispute to be found? Certainly, there were other aspects of the Battle of Chawinda. The Pakistani forces had been rendered unable to mount any counter-attack, which only worked in India's favour. By the time the United Nations cease-fire came into effect, and the fighting ended, India had overrun in excess of 500 square kilometres of Pakistani territory in Sialkot. This broke the back of Pakistan, as it ended up losing vast tracts of territory to India left, right, and centre. Heck, it seems to have lost almost everywhere it fought. India, on the other hand, had been clearly rewarded.[https://books.google.com/books?id=kCI4492cHTEC&pg=PA294&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false]{{paragraph}}To reiterate, the thrust of my argument is that no reliable scholarly source has considered this battle to be a Pakistani victory, whereas those that have considered the battle to be inconclusive, and explicitly so, exist in plenty. [[User:MBlaze Lightning|MBlaze Lightning]] ([[User talk:MBlaze Lightning|talk]]) 14:29, 11 May 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Pakistani victory''' This is really a no-brainer and should have long been reversed to the longstanding [[WP:CONSENSUS|consensus]] of 2015, as the 2018 discussion was anything but that (partisan votes and "orchestrated" discussions maketh not consensus). As the nom. {{u|S Marshall}} points out, the lack of participation in that discussion is telling. No matter which source you read, the literature is unanimously clear that the Indians not only sustained heavy losses in Chawinda, but failed above and beyond to meet the objectives they had set forth in the leadup to that offensive. One example of blatant source misrepresentation is the "territorial changes" claim in the infobox, as the 460 square kilometres being referred to [https://books.google.com/books?id=kCI4492cHTEC&pg=PA294&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false was the total area] ceded in all of [[Sialkot]] sector. Yet, here we have the hilarious claim being made that Pakistan lost this territory in the Chawinda battle, with a source that evidently makes no mention of Chawinda (double whammy). With such glaring errors, it's not hard to deduct at face value the merit of the arguments which seem to want to portray a rose-tinted alternate reality, including the extremely weak and flawed points made below. The fact is, I have yet to come across a single source, based on sound, reliable evidence even after all these years, that actually says the Indians suffered anything short of an effective defeat at Chawinda, or that they did not perform poorly when mounted with the Pakistani counterattack. It is self-explanatory as below and in many other sources: |
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{{talkquote|During the Battle of Chawinda, the largest armoured engagement since Kursk, Pakistani forces ''halted'' an Indian invasion of their country. In September 1965, the Pakistanis ''blunted a thrust'' by the Indian 1st Armored Division as each side fielded more than 250 tanks. Pakistani armor included the M48 and improved Sherman tanks of World War II vintage, while the Indians committed both Centurions and Shermans to the fight. When it was over, the Pakistanis had lost an estimated 44 tanks, while the ''Indians suffered up to 120 destroyed'', although they later asserted that they had lost only 29 armored vehicles.<ref name="Haskew2015"> |
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{{cite book |author=Michael E. Haskew |title=Tank: 100 Years of the World's Most Important Armored Military Vehicle |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=O8JQCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA201 |date=2 November 2015 |publisher=Voyageur Press |isbn=978-0-7603-4963-2 |pages=201–}}</ref>}} |
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Indian sources such as Abhyankar and Proudfoot, whose research is also widely used by [[Mohammad Ahmed Zaki|M.A. Zaki]] in a paper for [[Manohar Parrikar Institute for Defense Studies and Analyses|IDSA]] ([https://idsa.in/system/files/jds/jds_9_3_2015_AnInfantryCombatLeadersMemoirofthe1965War_0.pdf article]), acknowledge Chawinda as a "failure" and "unsuccessful" operation for India. |
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{{talkquote|In the overall context, the Chawinda attack was a ''failure and in the confusion after an unsuccessful operation, the valour of those who fought and died went unheard and unsung''. But in the Regiment, the battle of Chawinda will always be remembered and honoured as one more example of bravery in the unending saga of Maratha chivalry.<ref>{{cite book|title=Valour Enshrined: 1947-1979|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=XcADAAAAMAAJ|year=1971|publisher=[[Orient Longman]]|first=M. G.|last=Abhyankar|first2=C.L.|last2=Proudfoot|page=99}}</ref>}} |
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Grauer characterises Chawinda as a defensive victory favouring Pakistan: |
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{{talkquote|Among the notable defensive victories, however, were the Soviet defeat of the Japanese at Changkufeng Hill in 1938, Japan's repeated failures to retake Henderson Field on Guadalcanal between August and November 1942, the Indian failure to defeat the Pakistanis in the tank battle at Chawinda in the 1965 war fought between those countries, and Egypt and Syria's ultimately unsuccessful assaults on Israel through the Sinai Peninsula and Golan Heights during the Yom Kippur War.<ref name="Grauer2016">{{cite book|author=Ryan Grauer|title=Commanding Military Power: Organizing for Victory and Defeat on the Battlefield|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=Vr2SDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA14|date=28 July 2016|publisher=Cambridge University Press|isbn=978-1-316-68823-6|pages=14–}}</ref>}} |
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Bajwa, published by Hurst, notes the Indian command referred to Chawinda as a disaster: |
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{{talkquote|...with their successful defence of Chawinda, and the Indians' inability to take the town must have been demoralising for the troops. The casualties inflicted on Indian troops in the last assault on 19 September effectively meant that [[1st Armoured Division (India)|1 Armoured Division]] was also no longer able to carry out major offensive operations from that date. It appears that tensions amongst the senior commanders of this operation did not assist and it seems that there was also a failure to command from the front, from brigade commanders down. The Indian commander on the whole western front was highly critical of his own forces: 'an indifferent leadership made disaster inevitable' (H. Singh, 157).<ref name="Bajwa2013">{{cite book|author=Farooq Bajwa|title=From Kutch to Tashkent: The Indo-Pakistan War of 1965|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=5a0NAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA272|date=30 September 2013|publisher=Hurst Publishers|isbn=978-1-84904-230-7|pages=272–}}</ref>}} |
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[[Spencer C. Tucker]], in his ''A Global Chronology of Conflict'', concludes that while the 1965 war ended days later in a ceasefire without decisive results, Pakistan was the major victor in Chawinda: |
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{{talkquote|The Indians then reinforce and push the Pakistanis back to their base at Chawinda, where the Indians are again halted on September 10. After the Indians defeat a counterattack, the Pakistanis take up defensive positions. Both sides now reinforce. Although the Indians substantially outnumber the Pakistanis in manpower, many of the Pakistani tanks are superior to those of the Indians, and their artillery has greater range. The ''Pakistanis are ultimately able to push most of the Indian forces back across the international border. Pakistan is the victor in the battle. Its army has prevented the Indians from achieving their objective of capturing Sialkot and cutting the main Grand Trunk Road, which would have cut Pakistan in two.<ref name="Tucker2010">{{cite book|author=Spencer Tucker|title=A Global Chronology of Conflict: From the Ancient World to the Modern Middle East|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=nq1aAAAAYAAJ|year=2010|publisher=ABC-CLIO|isbn=978-1-85109-667-1}}</ref>}} |
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If we look at commentaries (for the sake of discussion), e.g. [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/27/hamid-gul The Guardian]'s piece on Hamid Gul: |
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{{talkquote|As a tank commander in the 1965 war with India over Kashmir, he was credited with contributing to a Pakistani victory at the battle of Chawinda, holding back the Indian offensive towards Sialkot.}} |
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''Independent'':<ref>{{cite news|url=https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/lieutenant-general-hamid-gul-general-zia-ul-haq-s-spymaster-who-was-dismissed-benazir-bhutto-and-later-accused-supporting-terrorism-10461392.html|title=Independent|date=19 August 2015}}</ref> |
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{{talkquote|He was credited with contributing to what has been regarded as a victory for Pakistan in the Battle of Chawinda, by holding back the Indian offensive towards Sialkot. The action has been described as the greatest tank battle since the Second World War, and Pakistan commentators called it “the graveyard of Indian tanks”. Hostilities were ended by a UN ceasefire.}} |
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''[[The Diplomat]]'': |
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{{talkquote|The Indian and Pakistani armies fought each other another 15 days, during the course of which both armies won their share of tactical victories — India in Phillora and Khem Karan, Pakistan in Chawinda — but none decisive enough to alter the ultimate result of the war. A ceasefire was called by the UN on September 22 and the Tashkent Declaration was signed between Ayub and Shastri in January 1966, thus bringing an end to hostilities.<ref>{{cite news|url=https://thediplomat.com/2015/09/how-india-fought-pakistan-50-years-ago/|title=How India Fought Pakistan 50 Years Ago|work=The Diplomat|first=Rohan|last=Joshi|date=17 September 2015}}</ref>}} |
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etc. |
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'''[[User:Mar4d|<span style="color: green;">Mar4d</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Mar4d|<span style="color: green;">talk</span>]]) 19:10, 15 May 2021 (UTC) |
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** Just noting that the Haskew source is just recycling Zaloga's numbers from 1980. Whereas Zaloga stated them as Pakistani claims, this man is taking them to be fact. He hasn't even noticed that Higgins updated the count. None of these tank pundits is really reliable. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 20:31, 15 May 2021 (UTC) |
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*** My dear Kautilya3. Given your extremely weak rebuttals to the source material below, if I were you, I'd first focus on drawing the line between what the sources unanimously agree upon and the one thing they all get right (''that it was an Indian defeat, as plain as daylight!'') and only ''then'' worry about the inconsequentialities (whether India lost 20 tanks, 120 or 200 for that matter). You remind me of the post-independence [[Babu (title)|babus]] who, after the colonisers left the subcontinent with pockets full, were only left wondering whether they were economically better off or worse off (after all the loot and plunder!). Let the experts determine the latter. You are engaging in directionless [[WP:OR|original research]] and [[WP:FORUM]], which is adding zero to the discussion about the battle result, which is what this this is precisely about. '''[[User:Mar4d|<span style="color: green;">Mar4d</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Mar4d|<span style="color: green;">talk</span>]]) 08:49, 16 May 2021 (UTC) |
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**Let me also just point out that Spencer Tucker does not actually ascribe victory to Pakistan. Quite to the contrary, he writes: {{olive|On September 6, however, India sent some 900,000 men across the border into Pakistan. Superior numbers soon told. In one of the largest tank battles in history, '''the Indians defeated the Pakistanis at Chawinda''' (September 14– 19) and reached Lahore, claiming to have destroyed 300 Pakistani tanks in the process.}}[https://books.google.com/books?id=ZOFqDgAAQBAJ&pg=PA249&dq=%22Chawinda%22+spencer+tucker&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwirmseAqs3wAhUY4zgGHeD_BPgQ6AEwAHoECAEQAw#v=onepage&q=%22Chawinda%22%20spencer%20tucker&f=false] The [https://books.google.com/books?redir_esc=y&id=nq1aAAAAYAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Chawinda link] that Mar4d provides above looks like a copy of an old newspaper article from wartime itself, written in present tense, and not Tucker's own words. Besides, the same article goes on to note, in sharp contradiction on the same page, and this he did not mention, "{{olive|The Pakistanis have suffered major losses themselves; however, they have also been '''unable''' to inflict a decisive defeat on the Indians}}".[https://books.google.com/books?id=nq1aAAAAYAAJ&dq=%22+achieving+their+objective+of+capturing+Sialkot+and+cutting+the+main+Grand+Turk+road%22&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=%22++they+have+also+been+unable+to+inflict+a+decisive+defeat+on+the+indians%22] It also ''undermines'' its own credibility when it claims that "The Pakistanis are ultimately able to push most of the Indian forces back across the international border", which undoubtedly gainsays the gains of India's 1 Corps in the Sialkot theatre. Whereas Grauer not only completely fails [[WP:RSCONTEXT]], but also his one-liner does not tantamount to a Pakistani victory, especially read together with the available reliable scholarly commentary.{{paragraph}}So none of those sources have ascribed to Pakistan the victory in the Battle of Chawinda, and that is indeed rather telling. The Indian failure to break through the Pakistani defences at Chawinda is not itself in dispute. But the battle had many aspects. The Indian thrust, which culminated at Chawinda, had gone deep into West Pakistan. The Pakistanis themselves had been rendered unable to push back the Indians from what was their own territory. India held onto its gains, and that is all that mattered in the long run.[https://books.google.com/books?id=nTRuAAAAMAAJ&dq=When+the+ceasefire+came+at+3+.+30+am+on+23+September+%2C+the+Indian+forces&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=%22Thereafter+%2C+fighting+started+again+and+the+Indian+forces+made+some+further+tactical+gains+.+When+the+ceasefire+came+at+3+.+30+am+on+23+September+%2C+the+Indians+forces+were+in+control+of+about+180+square+miles+of+Pakistani+territory+in+the+Sialkot%22] Mind you that the scholarly sources in no uncertain terms have concluded that the fighting, which ended with the ceasefire, was {{olive|'''inconclusive'''}} or {{olive|'''indecisive'''}}. This inability to confute arguments that have already been advanced quite clearly stems from an inability to understand other people's arguments and what the sources actually say. [[User:MBlaze Lightning|MBlaze Lightning]] ([[User talk:MBlaze Lightning|talk]]) 08:50, 16 May 2021 (UTC) |
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*** You do realise, don't you, that Tucker is ascribing to Indian claims in the same passage when he quotes the figure of 300 Pakistani tanks? The passage that I shared is not a newspaper clipping. It is actually from Tucker's publication which is a listing of various military conflicts, and uses present tense for other events on the same page/s. The passage I shared is actually more comprehensive in stating so the reason for the Pakistani victory, which was the inability of the Indians to capture Sialkot and cutting access through the [[Grand Trunk Road]]. The passage you quoted is highlighting the Indians' numerical superiority right up until the ceasefire which isn't even debatable. So, quoting Spencer once again, and combined with the preponderance of sources (see [[WP:WEIGHT]]), my point still stands. '''[[User:Mar4d|<span style="color: green;">Mar4d</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Mar4d|<span style="color: green;">talk</span>]]) 09:16, 16 May 2021 (UTC) |
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* Also adding excerpts from Cloughley, who devotes a detailed section to Chawinda in his book. This is a good source that goes into depth regarding the Pakistani clearance operation, and agrees with the above. |
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{{talkquote|The Indians knew it was essential for them to take Chawinda; the Pakistanis knew that if they did, the ground between Lahore and Sialkot would open up for their further advance as there were no forces available for defence further west. On 12 September the Pakistanis tried without success to retake Phillora, and next day the Indians attempted to outflank Chawinda from the east but, in an impressive display of flexibility, the Pakistanis moved 19 and 20 Lancers and 1 FF (of 1 Armd. Div.) to its defence, and the '''Indian advance was halted after fierce fighting'''... An attack against Chawinda was planned for the 14th, but in a classic employment of good intelligence and efficient artillery the '''Pakistanis located the forming-up place of the Garhwali battalion that was to lead the assault and brought fire down on it. The battalion was forced to withdraw and the attack did not take place'''... On the night of 15/16 September the Indians again tried to outflank the main Pakistani force, this time by pressing west to Jassoran... then south to cut off Chawinda from the rear. Once the village was isolated, the Indians considered it would fall... '''but their armour was engaged so heavily by Pakistani anti-tank weapons that it could not advance further. The battalion held out until 17 September, when it was forced to withdraw to Jassoran'''...<ref name="Cloughley2016">{{cite book|author=Brian Cloughley|title=A History of the Pakistan Army: Wars and Insurrections|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=3SqCDwAAQBAJ|date=5 January 2016|publisher=Simon and Schuster|isbn=978-1-63144-039-7|pages=107–110}}</ref>}} |
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'''[[User:Mar4d|<span style="color: green;">Mar4d</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Mar4d|<span style="color: green;">talk</span>]]) 11:42, 16 May 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Inconclusive''' or '''Stalemate'''. It seems to be the majority opinion, and for a reason. Having followed the discussion, and observed folks who have demonstrated that they have done a great deal of digging and ruminating and come to a reasoned conclusion that the battle did not yield a clear winner, I do not see a reason to not think in the same direction, for their arguments seem convincingly puissant. The fact that this battle took place deep inside Pakistani territory means that "halting Indian advance" cannot be the same as saying the "Pakistani won", particularly when one ruminates the fact that the Pakistani forces could not and did not endeavour to push back the Indians.<ref>{{cite book |last1=Singh |first1=Bhupinder |title=1965 War, Role of Tanks in India-Pakistan War |date=1982 |publisher=B.C. Publishers |page=212 |url=https://books.google.ca/books?id=6DDHAAAAIAAJ&dq=stalemate+at+Chawinda&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=%22Stalemate+ensued+after+19+Sep+%3B+the+Pakistanis+stayed+back+and+did+not+attack+and+the+Indian+troops+got+busy+with+refitting+and+rest+.+%22 |quote=Stalemate ensued after 19 Sep ; the Pakistanis stayed back and did not attack and the Indian troops got busy with refitting and rest}}</ref> The reliable sources do not say that the Pakistanis defeated the Indians. But they are ''unequivocal'' in saying that the battle was a stalemate and ended with a truce. [[User:Kerberous|Kerberous]] ([[User talk:Kerberous|talk]]) 01:39, 17 May 2021 (UTC) |
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===Questions=== |
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Would hopefully like to help out the closer on this issue and ask some questions. This is ''not'' to generate more opinions on the matter, it's just to clarify what the outcome will be when this RfC closes. This RfC began as the direct result of [[#Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 March 2021|previous talks above it]]. We are asked to choose between the [[Talk:Battle of Chawinda/Archive 1#DID the battle lead to Major Pakistani victory?|RfC consensus of 2015]] (which upheld the Battle of Chawinda as a victory for Pakistan) or the more recent [[Talk:Battle of Chawinda/Archive 2#Result|discussion of 2018]] (which decided to call the battle result "inconclusive" in the same manner as the war's outcome itself was inconclusive). It does not look like this RfC has come to much of an agreement on this matter, and I'm curious to find out what that "no consensus" actually means. Does it mean that the stronger consensus of 2015 should outweigh that of 2018? or will "no consensus" mean that the 2018 discussion's result will continue to prevail? Again, these questions are rhetorical and just try to sum up what may happen when this RfC closes. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>16:25, 2 May 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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: Most people who commented here answered the question, "What was the result of Battle of Chawinda?" (posed at the top). I agree that the OP made some comments about the old RfC etc. But they are of no consequence because no RfC and no consensus is ever permanent. New information becomes available, new sources get written, and new editors come in and bring new expertise. I don't believe the old RfC and its result have any bearing on this one. The old discussion 2018 also has no bearing on it. We are looking at the question afresh. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 18:14, 2 May 2021 (UTC) |
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::{{gi|I agree that the OP made some comments about the old RfC etc. But they are of no consequence [...]}} |
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::Beg to differ – the OP was specific with {{gi|At issue in this RfC is the question of which of the previous consensuses takes precedence.}} I'd say that puts the old 2015 RfC and the 2018 discussion right at the focus of this RfC, which makes my questions quite valid, thank you very much. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>21:37, 2 May 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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===Discussion=== |
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What do RS say?[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 14:43, 15 April 2021 (UTC) |
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:@[[User:Gog the Mild|Gog the Mild]]: They don't. Surely Pakistan had no objective of losing more land to India and also suffering more casualties than India. [[User:Srijanx22|Srijanx22]] ([[User_talk:Srijanx22|talk]]) 15:02, 15 April 2021 (UTC) |
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:{{to|Slatersteven}} RS say two pertinent facts: 1) Pakistan's military held on to and did not cede Chawinda to India's military, and 2) India's military did not attack and take Chawinda. Those two facts are not in dispute among reliable sources. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>19:45, 15 April 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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::Do any RS declare who won?[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 08:29, 16 April 2021 (UTC) |
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:::[https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/105862237?searchTerm=pakistani%20tank%20victory&searchLimits=l-decade=196 Here] it's described by the Canberra Times as a Pakistani victory, but in my 2015 RfC close I decided to give that source less weight because there are book sources written by specialists. [https://books.google.co.uk/books?ei=7x-XVPS9EselNrKrhMAC&id=RPttAAAAMAAJ&dq=Battle+for+Pakistan:+the+air+war+of+1965+chawinda&q=+chawinda&redir_esc=y Here] it's described as a "bloodbath" for the Indian army. This is disputed by some editors who don't think that means India lost, or who think that India losing doesn't mean Pakistan won. I have been accused of incompetence and disruptive behaviour, above, for pointing out that all the editors who think this are Indian. [https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JynHxapIMcwC&pg=PA36&dq=chawinda+pakistan+victorious&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EtCRVNKwFpefyAT_7YGIAw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=chawinda%20pakistan%20victorious&f=false Here] it's described as inconclusive. There's also a source by renowned tank pundit S. J. Zaloga, which isn't currently available online, that describes a "debacle" for the Indian army that was halted by a ceasefire, but it's disputed whether Zaloga was talking about the Battle of Chawinda as a whole or a single engagement within it.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 12:40, 16 April 2021 (UTC) |
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::::Where on earth does the Canberra Times describe the battle to be a Pakistani victory? It had but reported the sequence of events as told by the Pakistani commanders while the battle was still going on: "{{tq|Pakistan troops were reported confident today of scoring a major victory in the Sialkot sector, where bitter fighting between Indian and Pakistani tanks continues.}}" So are you trying to deceive people by spouting such misleading falsehood? The sources clearly assert that the battle was ended by the ceasefire, so how on earth could a [[WP:PRIMARY]] source from a wartime even relevant today? As for John Fricker, he was commissioned by the Pakistani government to write thier history of the war[https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/defence/story/19880415-squadron-leader-ayamada-bopayya-devayya-honoured-23-years-after-his-death-797132-1988-04-15], and his book is full of propagandistic statements. He is far from being an independent authority on the war, and anything he says or claims will be taken with a bucket full of salt and grouped under the Pakistani claims wherever deemed necessary, given his association with the Pakistani government. This has been said time and again, so your willingness to resort to prevarications and obfuscation is rather unfortunate. On one hand, you peddle conspiracy theories that "Indians" somehow schemed among themselves to flout the RFC, and established a consensus of their own to get rid of the Pakistani victory in the infobox, which they detested, and on the other you engage in this POV pushing that Pakistan won the battle by using propagandistic Pakistani government sources.The more you speak, the more you betray the hollowness of your argument. You really have no case for changing the consensus. The outcome of the battle has been explicitly deemed to be inconclusive not by one, but multiple reliable sources. About which you have nothing to say. [[User:Srijanx22|Srijanx22]] ([[User_talk:Srijanx22|talk]]) 13:57, 16 April 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::(1) An Australian newspaper isn't a primary souce for the outcome of a battle between India and Pakistan. (2) Yes, John Fricker was paid by Pakistan to write an account of the war, and yes, he drew on Pakistani sources. Good sources are written by people who know their subject, and that often means that good sources aren't neutral. As Wikipedians, it's often our job to construct a NPOV article using biased sources. Fricker is perfectly admissible. (3) Please show with diffs any occasion where I have deceived people with misleading falsehood, any occasion where I have resorted to prevarications and obfuscation, and any occasion where I have peddled a conspiracy theory about Indians scheming to subvert the RfC.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 14:54, 16 April 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::Well, the question you need to answer, instead of denying the very obvious implications, is "Where...does the Canberra Times describe the battle to be a Pakistani victory"? Moreover, a source does not become secondary by its place of origin, but by the independent commentary it offers, which your source does not. While [[WP:BIASED]] sources can be used in certain cases with in-text attribution, provided a "level of independence from the topic the source is covering" is ensured, Fricker was hired by the Pakistani military (a belligerent in the war) to write for them. Under such circumstances, it's no longer a matter of just bias, but also that of conflict of interest, which makes Fricker completely inadmissible for making conclusions of victory and defeat as far as the war or for that matter the battle is concerned, if at all he does, for he is bound to glorify his contractors. [[User:MBlaze Lightning|MBlaze Lightning]] ([[User talk:MBlaze Lightning|talk]]) 15:53, 16 April 2021 (UTC) |
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:As a general rule, I'd be very careful about using someone such as Fricker in this case to write objectively about the result of the battle. There's a reason PAID SPA's don't write articles on their subjects that include details of failures and scandals. Since this is about a contentious/disputed battle outcome, his opinion on the matter would need to be attributed in text, I should think, at the very minimum. His opinion is not very good on its own. I have no overall opinion on what this infobox says and am not familiar with the particulars of this case, but I think one would need a better source than Fricker to support making such a claim. And I would remind everyone that "Disputed" is also a relatively acceptable outcome to put in the infobox, with further info included in the article text. -[[User:Indy beetle|Indy beetle]] ([[User talk:Indy beetle|talk]]) 06:50, 19 April 2021 (UTC) |
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:I've almost no involvement in the military history field, but it seems to me someone paid by one side of the conflict for the work in question, no matter how reputable they may be, shouldn't really be taken as an unbiased source. A particular point here which comes from my experience in other areas. This seems to be a reasonably significant part of a very significant war several decades ago. It would seem to me it should be well covered in a lot of different good sources. If the claim being made by Fricker is well supported, it would seem to me it shouldn't be that hard to find one or more better sources. If these can't be found, I would question whether the claim is really well accepted. It's possible there are a variety of different opinions and Fricker's is still significant enough to include, but that would imply there isn't one undisputed outcome and the article would need to properly reflect that. [[User:Nil Einne|Nil Einne]] ([[User talk:Nil Einne|talk]]) 11:51, 20 April 2021 (UTC) |
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::It's the largest tank battle since the Second World War. There are, essentially, three categories of sources: Indian historians ("stalemate"), Pakistani historians (who portray it like the stand of the 300 at Sparta), and independent sources that are basically about the tanks. The latter compare the Pakistani tanks which were a mixed bunch of mainly Shermans and Pattons of late WW2 vintage, and the Indian tanks which were also mixed, but generally more modern, and included a substantial number of Centurions, a considerably superior vehicle. The tank pundits are saying that on a comparison of equipment, India should have broken through and swept deep into Pakistan, but didn't. They aren't saying Pakistan won the battle, they're saying that India lost it (with the implication that the cause of this was Indian generals mishandling their armour). In the 2015 RfC I decided that it was better to phrase this as a Pakistani victory than a defeat for India. There's a concerted attempt going on to rule out sources that disfavour one of the sides.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 08:28, 21 April 2021 (UTC) |
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::: So which of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chawinda#cite_note-7 these] are "Indian historians"? -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 20:27, 21 April 2021 (UTC) |
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=== Sources === |
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I have now acquired and read through Zaloga<ref>{{citation |first=Steven J. |last=Zaloga |title=The M47 & M48 Patton Tanks |publisher=Osprey Publishing |location=London |year=1980 |ISBN=0-85045-466-2}}</ref> and Higgins.<ref>{{citation |last=Higgins |first=David R. |title=M48 Patton vs Centurion: Indo-Pakistani War 1965 |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=Tx_DCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA52 |year=2016 |publisher=Osprey Publishing |isbn=978-1-4728-1093-9}}</ref> Neither of them provides any citations for their claims, which is not surprising since they are not scholarly sources. Moreover, both of them seem to be part of the American defence-industry ecosystem. Zaloga is mentioned as a defence consultant. I couldn't find Higgins' main occupation, but his writings and media work are obviously targeted at the same clientele as that of the defence industry. |
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'''Zaloga's''' book was written in 1980, before any authentic histories became available. And his treatment lacks fidely for the same reason. For instance, he says that Pakistan's 7th Division was defending the area, whereas it was the 15th Division. He himself admits: |
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{{talkquote|Objective assessments of the 1965 war are as yet largely unavailable, and what Indian and Pakistani accounts do exist are as often as not ''poisoned by propaganda and highly suspect''. Particularly contentious are the various claims for enemy tanks destroyed and so forth.{{sfn|Zaloga|1980|p=20}}}} |
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But he doesn't say how he is accounting for the 'highly suspect' propaganda. His coverage is essentially in line with the Pakistani propaganda and, in some cases, goes beyond it. Pakistan's 11th Cavalry, which "ceased to function as a complete regiment" according to a Pakistani analyst,<ref name="pavocavalry.wordpress.com">{{cite web|last=Amin|first=Major Agha H.|title=Situation Leading to and Battle of Phillora|url=http://pavocavalry.wordpress.com/2008/11/17/situation-leading-to-and-battle-of-phillora-click-to-enlarge-maps-1965-1965-war-map-conceived-and-drawn-by-ah-amin-indian-army-pakistan-army-pa/|work=Think Tank|publisher=AH Amin|access-date=11 July 2011|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20111009110841/http://pavocavalry.wordpress.com/2008/11/17/situation-leading-to-and-battle-of-phillora-click-to-enlarge-maps-1965-1965-war-map-conceived-and-drawn-by-ah-amin-indian-army-pakistan-army-pa/|archive-date=9 October 2011|url-status=dead}}</ref> does not even find a mention in Zaloga's coverage. Particularly vicious is his comment: |
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{{talkquote|The Indians made the ludicrous claim of 67 Pakistani tanks destroyed, which was well in excess of the total number in the area at the time.}} |
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The Pakistani analyst<ref name="pavocavalry.wordpress.com"/> points out that ''two tank regiments'' were operating in the battle (10th and 11th Cavalries), which should have amounted to 88 tanks, not to mention the additional 'tank destroyers' attached to the 11th cavalry. So the supposed reason for the Indian claim being "ludicrous" falls flat. |
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His summary assessment of the Sialkot front is: |
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{{talkquote|The Pakistanis ''admitted'' losing 44 tanks in the Sialkot sector, but ''claimed'' 120 Indian tanks, and the British journalists saw no reason to doubt them.{{sfn|Zaloga|1980|p=23}}}} |
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There is no comparable mention of the Indian admissions and claims, let alone any effort to balance the two. In my view, this source is wholly worthless for reporting any judgmental information or even factual information. |
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'''Higgins'''' book is more thorough, being written 2016. Several authentic histories of the Indian account became available by this time, including some serious self-critiques.<ref>{{citation |last=Singh |first=Lt Gen Harbakhsh |title=War Despatches: Indo–Pak Conflict 1965 |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=rQknTVv0AT0C |publisher=Lancer Publishers LLC |year=2013 |isbn=978-1-935501-59-6}}</ref> Much of this self-critique finds its way into Higgins's coverage. However, there is no comparable self-critique of the Pakistani side. So, it leaves one with the impression that the Indians did poorly while the Pakistanis were close to perfect. His summary assessment is: |
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{{talkquote|Outnumbered Pakistani Pattons performed very well with 25th Cavalry and the regiments of 6th Armoured Division, as demonstrated by the division knocking out 180 Indian tanks for the loss of 61 of its own between 10 and 23 September, the latter figure comprising 31 M48s, 17 M47s, nine M36B2s and four Shermans; many of the Indian tanks were Centurions Mk 7s of 17th Horse and 4th Horse.{{sfn|Higgins|2016|p=75}}}} |
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Notice that the Pakistani toll went up from Zaloga's 44 to 61. So, it appears that some serious accounting information became available in the interim. But, the Indian toll went up ''proportionately'', without any rhyme or reason! This is just formulaic propaganda.{{efn|The Indian count is 29 tanks destroyed, and 41 damaged.<ref>{{citation |last=Chakravorty |first=B. C. |title=History of the Indo-Pak War, 1965 |publisher=Government of India, Ministry of Defence, History Division |year=1992a |chapter=Operations in Sialkot sector |chapter-url=http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/History/1965War/PDF/1965Chapter07.pdf |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20110609073555/http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/History/1965War/PDF/1965Chapter07.pdf |archive-date=9 June 2011 |url-status=dead |p=221}}</ref>}} |
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Both the authors know enough to recognize that there is a difference between tanks getting "destroyed" or "damaged". But the benefit of this distinction is applied only to Pakistan. Indian claims of what were destroyed vs. damaged do not even find any mention. Also interesting is the claim that the Pakistani Pattons were "outnumbered", whereas by Higgins' own accounting, Pakistanis were employing ''four'' regiments of Pattons against ''three'' regiments of Indian Centurions. There is not even a semblance of effort to indicate where the information of "180 Indian tanks getting knocked out" comes from. |
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On the whole, Higgins too is a partisan source, which can't be used for any judgemental information. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 16:09, 19 April 2021 (UTC) |
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Another source touted as supporting the proposition of Pakistani Victory is '''Shahid R. Amin''', a Pakistani foreign policy expert.<ref>{{citation |last=Amin |first=Shahid M. |title=Pakistan's Foreign Policy: A Reappraisal |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=6l8nAQAAMAAJ |year=2010 |publisher=Oxford University Press |isbn=978-0-19-547912-6}}</ref> But Amin is not really claiming Pakistani victory. Here is an extended passage: |
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{{talkquote|The Pakistanis took satisfaction from the performance of their air force as also from many individual acts of gallantry, particularly by the heroic defenders at Chawinda who were able to stop a major Indian thrust. Indeed, judged by a realistic yardstick ''rather than by romantic expectations of a victory over India'', the very fact that Pakistan had been able to hold back a much bigger foe was in itself creditable. Pakistan's relatively good performance was, no doubt, due also to the military aid received from the US in the previous decade, ostensibly to fight communist aggression....{{sfn|Amin|2010|p=54}}}} |
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The source is characterising "victory over India" as a ''romantic expectation'', rather than a realistic yardstick. (I whole-heartedly agree that the Pakistani achievement in holding back a much bigger foe is creditable. But that does not amount to a victory.) He himself explains on the next page: |
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{{talkquote|Despite individual gallantry and a good performance by its air force, Pakistan had little to show as its real gains in the 1965 War. 'Operation Gibraltar' was faulty both in conception as well as in implementation. Even worse, Pakistan found itself drawn into a full-scalel war with India that it had not anticipated and for which it was caught unprepared, in the actual fighting ''the Indians managed to cut deep into the strategic Sialkot sector'' whereas, at the end of the war, Pakistan was in possession of some desert land. ''Pakistan's counter-offensive led by its armour failed to make any headway.'' However, in spite of this, ''the hype'' was such that the Pakistani people, by and large, thought that the war was actually being won, when perfidious, or at least weak-hearted, elements in the leadership had halted it prematurely in obedience to US commands.{{sfn|Amin|2010|p=55}}}} |
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In this short but brilliant passage, he clarifies that the war was initiated by Pakistan, that it was unprepared for Indian retaliation, that India made deep inroads, that Pakistan could not push it back, but there was '''hype''' that convinced the Pakistani people that it had actually won the war! What more do I need to say? -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 18:57, 19 April 2021 (UTC) |
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:Perhaps something about how this whole RfC is not about whether or not Pakistan won the "war", hyped and imagined as it might have been by the Pakistani people. This is only about the Battle of Chawinda. There is no argument here about the war itself and its inconclusive outcome. Nor is there much in your gallant effort above that refutes a Pakistani victory at Chawinda. Great effort, though, so thank you for that, sincerely''!'' '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>21:08, 19 April 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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:: The hype about this battle is very much part of the hype about the war, because it was indeed the last stand battle. The hype is very important for Pakistan. Its military has to be always presented as national heroes who are constantly defending the country against the duplicitous India. No politician, no official, no pressperson can go against that and present any facts that might vitiate the heroic image. |
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:: But, coming back to the sources, yes, Amin is indeed talking mostly about the entire war rather than the battle. And, for that reason, it is ''not a good source'' for claiming anything on this page. The other two (Zaloga and Higgins) have enough coverage of the battle, but their conclusions are dubious, "poisoned by propaganda" as they themselves admit. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 04:25, 20 April 2021 (UTC) |
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:::Then I suggest we go with the independent sources as outlined by {{u|S Marshall}} above and call the battle an "Indian defeat" rather than a "Pakistani victory". I shall amend my rationale. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>20:24, 21 April 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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{{notelist-talk}} |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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{{closed rfc bottom}} |
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== Territorial changes == |
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{{Edit extended-protected|Battle of Chawinda|answered=yes}} |
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The territorial changes section says that {{talkquote|India captures around 460 km (180 sq mi) of Pakistani territory}} |
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While the source cited to it doesn't say that it was captured during the Battle of Chawinda, rather it was captured in the Sialkot region. So it should be removed as the Indian advance was halted at Chawinda they didn't gain any territory in this battle. [[User:LiamKhan469|LiamKhan469]] ([[User talk:LiamKhan469|talk]]) 21:11, 31 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:This appears to be a fair observation of the actual battle. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 23:50, 31 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:: {{re|Cinderella157 }}Then please remove it.[[User:LiamKhan469|LiamKhan469]] ([[User talk:LiamKhan469|talk]]) 15:45, 1 September 2021 (UTC) |
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:::[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:EEp --> Request was made by a user banned for sockpuppetry <span style="text-shadow:red 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em; font-family:monospace">[[User:Bop34|bop34]] • [[User talk:Bop34|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Bop34|contribs]]</span> 12:12, 2 September 2021 (UTC) |
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Territorial changes
The territorial changes section says that
India captures around 460 km (180 sq mi) of Pakistani territory
While the source cited to it doesn't say that it was captured during the Battle of Chawinda, rather it was captured in the Sialkot region. So it should be removed as the Indian advance was halted at Chawinda they didn't gain any territory in this battle. LiamKhan469 (talk) 21:11, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- This appears to be a fair observation of the actual battle. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:50, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Cinderella157:Then please remove it.LiamKhan469 (talk) 15:45, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
RFC: Should the result be changed to Indian defeat or Pakistani victory
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
In light of the sources mentioned below, should the result be changed from "inconclusive" to Indian defeat or Pakistani victory? Thanks --101.53.225.41 (talk) 20:04, 14 August 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock
Following are some independent sources that state that this battle result was an Indian defeat or a Pakistani victory:
Independent sources that states that this battle was a Indian defeat or a Pakistani victory
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*WT:MILHIST notified.--101.53.225.41 (talk) 20:06, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
Comment: I also have noticed that this source is mentioned in the result field even though the source is talking about a stalemate at the whole Sialkot Front, not in this battle which was a part of Sialkot Front. --101.53.225.41 (talk) 20:05, 14 August 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock
Comment: As Mar4d has pointed out. Adding the link to previous RFC 2015 RfC, here the consensus was for "Pakistani victory" but then it was removed with a one-sided 2018 "RfC". 101.53.225.41 (talk) Blocked sock
Comment Could I suggest that you provide fuller bibliographic details for the sources cited above. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:32, 15 August 2022 (UTC) It would also be useful to indicate which of these sources were not considered in the course of the previous RfC. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:44, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
Survey (Should the result be changed to Indian defeat or Pakistani victory)
- Comment sources that describe India failing to achieve operational goals at this battle do no necessarily conflict with the "inconclusive" interpretation. I'd be curious if there are any military journals that look at this outcome. Since this is generally a contested subject, I suggest avoiding newspapers like The Independent or The Diplomat. The independent even says "what has been regarded as a victory" which begs the question, regarded by who? -Indy beetle (talk) 20:24, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
::The sources that describe it as India's failure they at best fall in the Indian Defeat interpretation. If editors disagree with adding newspaper then I have no problem with it.-101.53.225.41 (talk) Blocked sock
- 101.53.225.41, what is your brief and neutral statement? At over 8,000 bytes, the statement above (from the
{{rfc}}
tag to the next timestamp) is far too long for Legobot (talk · contribs) to handle, and so it is not being shown correctly at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/History and geography. The complex formatting may be exacerbating the problem. The RfC may also not be publicised through WP:FRS until a shorter statement is provided. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:00, 14 August 2022 (UTC)- To editor Redrose64: fixed format of initial statement. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'r there 18:20, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- Inconclusive/Speedy close MOS:MIL is the applicable guidance, with X victory and Inconclusive but not X defeat being permitted parameters for the result field. The parameter should represent the consensus of [good quality, independent] sources. We are explicitly cautioned against WP:OR. We should also consider the "immediate result" and not subsequent events that may have resulted from. Indy beetle would suggest avoiding newspapers. I would agree. Furthermore, I would be cautious in using popularist histories (ie Bloomsbury and Osprey). The OP would state:
Now in the light of the sources mentioned above should the result be changed to Indian Defeat or Pakistani Victory?
However, a goodly number of these source were explicitly considered during the preceding RfC only 18 months ago. I am not seeing what is new or changed that might reasonably lead to a different outcome. The sources would clearly indicate that the Indians failed to achieve their objective. However, this is not the same as a defeat for one side or a victory for the other. Leaving aside the newspaper sources, only two make anything like a categorical statement. Zologa would say:the 25th Cavalry at Chawinda, where they defeated their better equipped but clumsier foes
. But the 25th Cav was only part of the Pakistani force and the statement would be referring to an early phase of the battle, so we can scratch that one. Spencer Tucker (A Global Chronology of Conflict: From the Ancient World to the Modern Middle East, Volume 2) would say:The Pakistanis are ultimately able to push most of the Indian forces back across the international border. Pakistan is the victor in the battle.
The problem is, the article is not telling us this and that India still retained control of Pakistani territory? The OP would ask us to read the other sources and draw a conclusion that this is either a Pakistani victory or an Indian defeat. However, when the sources aren't specifically saying as much, that would be WP:SYNTH. On the other hand, we do have two or three sources that are specifically calling it inconclusive, indecisive or a stalemate (the immediate result following Chawinda). Both sides got a bloody nose and lacked the will to continue. One side withdrew and the other side couldn't follow. There is nothing new to discuss. Cinderella157 (talk) 04:55, 15 August 2022 (UTC)- Without being too familiar with the particulars, I would add that an option is always to add a bullet point under "Inconclusive" that says "See Outcome section". -Indy beetle (talk) 05:58, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose (Summoned by bot) taken in their overall balance, and mostly in particular, these sources endorse "Inconclusive", and none speaks of a clear victory/defeat AFAI can see - without WP:OR interpretation of their content.
sources that describe India failing to achieve operational goals at this battle do no necessarily conflict with … "inconclusive"
. I endorse everything Indy beetle & Cinderella157 say below. Pincrete (talk) 06:54, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- Previous RFC stands - Two sections above, you find a six-month long RfC barely a year ago, with wide-ranging comments from a variety of editors. It came out with the result of "no consensus"/"inconclusive". What has changed so that a new RfC is warranted again? WP:RFCBEFORE is not satisfied. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:03, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- Comment In before we get further comments along the lines of "but past RfC was inconclusive"; the question wasn't answered then, and the closure itself acknowledged this; again, which of the multiple sources available on the subject clearly negated the Indian military's tactical failure in this battle? Quoting one of the participants from the last RfC, the "Indian military were unable to take Chawinda". Mar4d (talk) 14:17, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
- Pakistani victory. Sources have been clear all along that it was the overall conflict that was "inconclusive". The final battle of that conflict, at Chawinda, was a decisive victory for Pakistan. Had it not been so, then the overall outcome would not have been so "inconclusive", imho. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'r there 18:34, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- I was the closer of the 2015 RfC, and I've been asked to comment here by a message on my talk page. When I closed the 2015 RfC I knew nothing about the Battle of Chawinda, but since then I've learned a lot about it, having been required to defend my close against attempts to overturn it and having read a lot of commentary and sources.The battle of Chawinda was the final battle of an inconclusive war. Territorial changes after the battle were minimal and not material, and the Indian side likes to portray the Battle of Chawinda as a draw. This case is arguable, and if you cherry-pick the right reliable sources and pretend the others don't exist, you can justify the outcome of the 2018 RfC. But really, this ignores the fact that India outnumbered and outgunned Pakistan at Chawinda. The Indian Army attempted a set piece assault on fortified positions and was bloodily repulsed. The Pakistani side likes to portray it as a glorious last stand that held off the enemy onslaught until peace was achieved.Personally, I think the Pakistani side of it is less wrong than the Indian side. Pakistan was trying to hold India off, and succeeded. This was the best result for Pakistan that was militarily possible.—S Marshall T/C 19:03, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- Hear hear, well put – much to be said for the ability of people to defend their home territory. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'r there 01:14, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
- Comment For the record, I am confident that the IP editor who started this RfC is an indef-blocked sockpuppeteer. Girth Summit (blether) 11:00, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
RFC on the Result - Pakistani Victory/Indian defeat
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
As already mentioned, an RFC concluded that it was a Pakistani Victory. The decision was further reviewed and consensus was once again in favor of the RFC - Pakistani Victory.
The participants of this short talk page discussion concluded the battle was inconclusive.
Should the result of the Battle of Chawinda be "Pakistani Victory" or "Indian defeat"? Joooshhh (talk) 19:29, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
Pakistani Victory It's cut and dry - as the reliable sources state - the Indians failed to attack, the Pakistanis successful defended themselves. Joooshhh (talk) 19:58, 1 September 2022 (UTC)- Close RfC This seems ridiculous to make an RfC after a block evading IP created one a few weeks prior and now an account with 17 edits on a page that is ECP? This does not seem like the correct protocol. – The Grid (talk) 22:12, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 December 2023
Please add the following sections
==Other 1971 battles in the vicinity==
- Battle of Asal Uttar
- Battle of Chumb
- Battle of Chawinda
- Battle of Ichogil Bund
- Battle of Kasur
- Battle of Pul Kanjri
== See also ==
Thank you. 119.74.238.54 (talk) 03:53, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
- Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Spintendo 04:32, 28 December 2023 (UTC)