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== Territorial changes == |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 March 2021 == |
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{{Edit extended-protected|Battle of Chawinda|answered=yes}} |
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{{edit extended-protected|Battle of Chawinda|answered=yes}} |
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Result Pakistan victory [[User:Abdul alim mia|Abdul alim mia]] ([[User talk:Abdul alim mia|talk]]) 11:56, 23 March 2021 (UTC) |
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:Please provide reliable sources for the change you'd like to make. Thanks. [[User:ScottishFinnishRadish|ScottishFinnishRadish]] ([[User talk:ScottishFinnishRadish|talk]]) 12:07, 23 March 2021 (UTC) |
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::[[Talk:Battle_of_Chawinda/Archive_1#DID_the_battle_lead_to_Major_Pakistani_victory?|This RfC]] should answer that.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 12:09, 9 April 2021 (UTC) |
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::: {{not done}}. The sources cited, which are of good quality, seem clear that the result was inconclusive. Unless some other sources of equal quality come along, no revision is warranted. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 16:28, 9 April 2021 (UTC) |
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:::: Don't be silly. The Battle of Chawinda was the final engagement in the Second Kashmir War. The sources rightly say that the Second Kashmir War was inconclusive -- but the Battle of Chawinda wasn't inconclusive. As demonstrated in the RfC that I personally closed six years ago, the sources say that the Battle of Chawinda was a Pakistani victory. The RfC outcome was challenged and confirmed [[Special:Permalink/644921474#Reviewing RfC closure : Battle of Chawinda|here]]. Please allow it to be implemented.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 22:48, 9 April 2021 (UTC) |
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:::::Not possible until [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Battle_of_Chawinda/Archive_2#Result this more recent consensus] has been overturned. '''[[User:Aman.kumar.goel|Aman Kumar Goel]]''' <sup>(''[[User talk:Aman.kumar.goel|Talk]]'')</sup> 17:06, 10 April 2021 (UTC) |
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{{od}} |
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Thank you {{U|Aman.kumar.goel}}. I didn't know that there was discussion before the result field was changed. The current sources are certainly much better than the old ones, they are newer and broader, and therefore more neutral. In response to {{U|S Marshall}}, these sources are indeed saying that the result of Battle of Chawinda was a draw, not that the overall war was a draw. |
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The territorial changes section says that {{talkquote|India captures around 460 km (180 sq mi) of Pakistani territory}} |
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Honestly, I don't know how scholars decide the wins or losses. Pakistan retained Chawinda. In that sense, it had won. But is that all there is to it? Indians certainly knew that whatever territory they won, they would eventually have to give back. And Chawinda is not such an important piece of territory that it would make a difference for anything. But the Indians got Pakistan (a) to agree to an unconditional ceasefire, and (b) to agree to a truce without any concessions on Kashmir. In that sense, it seems to me that India achieved whatever it was trying to achieve in Chawinda. Knowledgeable scholars would understand the big picture. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 20:38, 10 April 2021 (UTC) |
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While the source cited to it doesn't say that it was captured during the Battle of Chawinda, rather it was captured in the Sialkot region. So it should be removed as the Indian advance was halted at Chawinda they didn't gain any territory in this battle. [[User:LiamKhan469|LiamKhan469]] ([[User talk:LiamKhan469|talk]]) 21:11, 31 August 2021 (UTC) |
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:This appears to be a fair observation of the actual battle. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 23:50, 31 August 2021 (UTC) |
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*That short, poorly attended discussion doesn't overturn a community RFC.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 00:07, 11 April 2021 (UTC) |
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:: {{re|Cinderella157 }}Then please remove it.[[User:LiamKhan469|LiamKhan469]] ([[User talk:LiamKhan469|talk]]) 15:45, 1 September 2021 (UTC) |
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{{od}} |
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:::[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:EEp --> Request was made by a user banned for sockpuppetry <span style="text-shadow:red 0.2em 0.2em 0.2em; font-family:monospace">[[User:Bop34|bop34]] • [[User talk:Bop34|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Bop34|contribs]]</span> 12:12, 2 September 2021 (UTC) |
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{{done}}, and thank you all very much''!'' '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>19:34, 12 April 2021 (UTC)</small>'''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>19:34, 12 April 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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== RFC: Should the result be changed to Indian defeat or Pakistani victory == |
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{{undone}} against consensus and the facts that appear in every source. Pakistan held on to Chawinda. India did not take Chawinda. No reliable source denies those two facts. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>10:08, 14 April 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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: {{U|Srijanx22}}, the result field is implementing an RfC result. You can't change it without achieving [[WP:CONSENSUS]] for the change. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 16:10, 13 April 2021 (UTC) |
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{{atop|RfC started by a ban evading sock, closing it per [[WP:DENY]]. Anybody else willing to start an RfC must read [[WP:RFCBEFORE]] and the earlier RfCs. '''[[User:Aman.kumar.goel|Aman Kumar Goel]]''' <sup>(''[[User talk:Aman.kumar.goel|Talk]]'')</sup> 11:50, 18 August 2022 (UTC)}} |
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::{{ping|Kautilya3}} See [[WP:RS]] and [[WP:VERIFY]]. RfC was 6 years old and the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Battle_of_Chawinda/Archive_2#Result last consensus to change the result] was 3 years old. Obviously a new discussion would be needed to change anything from "inconclusive". You can't overturn the latest consensus without providing clear cut [[WP:RS]] for supporting "pakistani victory" which is meaningless in this context per your own reply above. [[User:Srijanx22|Srijanx22]] ([[User_talk:Srijanx22|talk]]) 16:42, 13 April 2021 (UTC) |
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<s>In light of the sources mentioned below, should the result be changed from "inconclusive" to '''Indian defeat''' or '''Pakistani victory'''? Thanks --[[Special:Contributions/101.53.225.41|101.53.225.41]] ([[User talk:101.53.225.41|talk]]) 20:04, 14 August 2022 (UTC)</s> Blocked sock |
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::: At this point, your only option is to do another RfC. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 16:57, 13 April 2021 (UTC) |
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::::[[WP:V]] is among [[WP:5P|five pillars]] of Wikipedia, not RfC. Upholding a 6 years old RfC against a consensus sticking for more than 3 years is not going to fly. |
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::::See: ''{{cite book|author=David R. Higgins|title=M48 Patton vs Centurion: Indo-Pakistani War 1965|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=Tx_DCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA72|date=20 January 2016|publisher=Bloomsbury Publishing|isbn=978-1-4728-1093-9|pages=72–73}}'': |
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::::"At 1630hrs, with the Pakistani position faltering, Brigadier Abdul Ali Malik, commander of 24th Infantry Brigade, expressed doubts about being able to hold his position and unsuccessfully sought permission to withdraw from Chawinda. Pakistani artillery fired at Indian armour at Butur Dograndi from some 1,500m, which halted the Indian movement. 25th Cavalry tanks engaged as well, and this artillery/tank combination knocked out four Indian tanks; 24th Cavalry then stemmed the advance in this sector. Lieutenant-General Dunn, GOC I Corps, met with 1st Armoured Division and 6th Mountain Division at Maharajke to discuss fresh plans for Indian forces to capture Chawinda, Bedian and Zafarwal. 6th Mountain Division was tasked with taking Chawinda, while 1st Armoured Division and 14th Infantry Division moved on Bedian and Zafarwal, respectively. Since 6th Mountain Division’s 69th and 99th Mountain brigades were already committed elsewhere, 35th and 58th Infantry brigades were reallocated to Major-General Korla’s 6th Mountain Division from 1st Armoured Division. As a preliminary to launching an attack on Chawinda, Indian forces captured certain villages; these would serve as pivots to attack Chawinda, and to counter any Pakistani attempts to interfere. In a series of brisk actions, 1st Armoured Division employed 4th Horse, 17th Horse and 8th Garhwal Rifles, securing the villages by dusk against stiff resistance. Pakistan lost 28 tanks during the day. Several Indian commanders were also killed. During the night of 16/17 September, 1st Armoured Division headquarters misunderstood the reallocation of 35th Infantry Brigade to 6th Mountain Division, and moved the brigade forward from Gadgor to Phillora as part of a preliminary attack move before the brigade returned to its original location, thereby wasting valuable time. After three days of heavy fighting, 17 September was relatively calm, with only minor repositioning. The Pakistanis had halted the Indian assault on Chawinda, but it had created a large penetration between Bedian and Chawinda. Localized Pakistani counter-attacks achieved little, and Indian armour and infantry held all their gains against tenacious Pakistani attacks. Tank battles raged throughout the morning and afternoon, with both sides losing eight vehicles each. 6th Mountain Division was to effect its attack on Chawinda while 1st Armoured Division held key villages west of Chawinda to cover Korla’s command until it captured the settlement. However the attack, slated for the night of 17/18 September, was again postponed for 24 hours. After Major-General Rajinder Singh stressed that his 1st Armoured Division had been holding villages west of Chawinda and would be hard pressed to continue doing so, the division was withdrawn from two of the villages; but it retained Jassoran at all costs, as this represented a firm base of operations for the Indian infantry. According to 1st Armoured Brigade, conditions during 14–17 September had been favourable for an infantry assault on Chawinda, as it and Bedian had been isolated and cut off from three sides, following 1st Armoured Brigade’s having invested both from the rear, particularly on 16 and 17 September. Roughly two Pakistani infantry companies held the area near each objective, but as these were reinforced, applying Indian armour was considered unwise, and an opportunity was lost. Even so, although Pakistan forces had halted the Indian offensive in the Sialkot region, they had shot their bolt and were exhausted. Pakistani armour had been battered, and stocks of artillery ammunition were nearly expended." |
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:::::Given this detailed source, more detailed than the sources of dubious reliability rejected in earlier consensus notes that Pakistan "halted the Indian offensive" and also notes the Indian gains, it really makes no sense to conclusions of victory and defeat. Why can't we stick to sources at this stage? [[User:Srijanx22|Srijanx22]] ([[User_talk:Srijanx22|talk]]) 17:42, 13 April 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::Please read it again. The source you provide above clearly states {{gi|... stemmed the advance in this sector ...}}, {{gi|The Pakistanis had halted the Indian assault on Chawinda ...}}, {{gi|Roughly two Pakistani infantry companies held the area near each objective, but as these were reinforced, applying Indian armour was considered unwise}} and {{gi|Pakistan forces had halted the Indian offensive in the Sialkot region ...}}. The rest is just "icing on the cake". The real meat of the matter was that it was a clear victory for Pakistan. Indian military were unable to take Chawinda because the Pakistani military ''did not let them take Chawinda''. The war's result was decidedly inconclusive; however, the battle for Chawinda resulted in a clear, conclusive victory for Pakistan (even according to the source you quoted above). This is not just a matter on which editors may agree or disagree. This is a matter of what the sources say, and even Higgins indicates that the battle of Chawinda was won by Pakistan. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>19:26, 13 April 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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:::::::The source does not make that interpretation. All it says is that the Indian offensive came to a stop at Chawinda but they continued to hold the surrounding villages in the Sialkot region of Pakistan, and that the Pakistani had shot their bolt. If anything, that just implies that the Indians were in a commanding position to dictate things at Chawinda had the ceasefire not come into force. See, for example, [https://books.google.com/books?id=YWjP1pfs78sC&dq=inauthor%3A%22Sitaram+Johri%22&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=%22Chawinda+%28+Pak+%29+held+out+for+another+five+days+when+the+cease+-+fire+saved+it+from+capitulation+or+war+ravages+.+The+tank+battles+of+Phillora+%2C+Jassoran+and+Butur+Dograndi+were+historic+and+the+victory+which+the+Indian+troops+won+was+unique%22]: {{olive|Chawinda ( Pak ) held out for another five days when the cease - fire saved it from capitulation or war ravages . The tank battles of Phillora , Jassoran and Butur Dograndi were historic and the victory which the Indian troops won was unique...}}{{paragraph}}In any case, the fact of the matter is that the RFC that you have so forcefully invoked to change results had not stood the test of time and was duly changed back in 2017. That discussion too involved half a dozen participants, if not more, and what eventually emerged was a clear unanimous consensus that ''inconclusive'' was an apt description of the result of this battle, in line with what the preponderance of third party, reliable sources said. More importantly, it rejected the very sources on which you have based your case: John Fricker (who was officially tasked to write a history of the war by the Pakistani government) and the book written by one of the Pakistan's foreign service officer. That's just how the [[WP:CCC|normal consensus process works]]. And mind you, that consensus ''has'' stood the test of time for three years now, a fact that reinforces its credibility and relevance. Trying to pretend otherwise, or deliberately failing to consider that as if no discussion took place is simply disruptive. Edit warring to force things is even moreso. Now if you feel so strongly about this whole thing to the extent of asserting that Chawinda "was a clear victory for Pakistan", then show us your sources and achieve a new consensus. Until then, the status-quo will prevail. [[User:MBlaze Lightning|MBlaze Lightning]] ([[User talk:MBlaze Lightning|talk]]) 02:59, 14 April 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::::I'm going to overlook your apparent lack of AGF and your unjust blame of edit warring, which I have not done. It is you who are pretending that the so called 2017 consensus, [[Talk:Battle of Chawinda/Archive 2#Result|which actually took place in 2018]] (if that is the consensus you mean), was able to overturn the previous consensus. Consensus can change, but more importantly you need to stop denying the obvious meanings from the sources, even the Higgins source you quoted. No, Higgins does not actually call it a Pakistani victory, but he does imply it. And it would not be the first time that one side "had shot their bolt", but the other side was unaware of it. Had the Indian military known that the bolt had been shot, then Higgins would not have written that the Indian military considered it to be "unwise" to attack Chawinda. It is you who seems to feel too strongly about this, so stop denying it. It's like a 4th quarter football game where one team makes a touchdown to tie the game, or a runner making the tying run in the 9th inning of a baseball game. Pakistan held on to Chawinda. India did not take Chawinda. No amount of denial can change those two facts. Can you produce a reliable source that states otherwise? '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>09:30, 14 April 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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{{od}} |
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{{ec}} Response to MBlaze: I had organised the references into [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Battle_of_Chawinda&oldid=1017585374 two groups] (those supporting Pakistani victory and those calling it a stalemate). There should be no need to remove this while you argue about what the result field should say. |
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<s>Following are some independent sources that state that this battle result was an '''Indian defeat''' or a '''Pakistani victory''':</s> |
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I am happy to remove Fricker, which reads like a propaganda piece to me anyway, but Shahid Amin is fine with an OUP book. |
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{{collapsed top|title=Independent sources that states that this battle was a Indian defeat or a Pakistani victory}} |
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<s>#[https://books.google.com.pk/books?id=6f2opVxRGDcC Arming without Aiming: India's Military Modernization]<blockquote>India did not press the advantage and soon after''' suffered its own debacle in the Battle of Chawinda'''. When the Soviets offered mediation, New Delhi accepted, and India’s strategic condition remained unchanged</blockquote> |
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Cohen and Dasgupta, who are strategic experts, have called it a "debacle" for India. A bit overstated, but not far off the mark if you read the detailed military assessments. Yes, Pakistan was on the ''verge'' of defeat. But India wasn't able to take adantage of that since its own armour had been ''sent back for refitting''.<ref>{{citation |last=Barua |first=Pradeep |title=The State at War in South Asia |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=FIIQhuAOGaIC&pg=PA191 |year=2005 |publisher=U of Nebraska Press |isbn=0-8032-1344-1 |page=192}}</ref> India threw infantry regiments in front of Pakistani shelling from Chawinda. They got cut to pieces and ran away (literally!).<ref>{{citation |last=Singh |first=Jogindar |title=Behind the Scene: An Analysis of India's Military Operations, 1947-1971 |url=https://books.google.com/books?id=toheLRVgjLsC&pg=PA219 |year=1993 |publisher=Lancer Publishers |isbn=978-1-897829-20-2 |pages=219}}</ref> |
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#{{citation |first=Steven J. |last=Zaloga |title=The M47 & M48 Patton Tanks |publisher=Osprey Publishing |location=London |year=1980 |ISBN=0-85045-466-2}}<blockquote>both [India and Pakistan] proved adept with smaller forces in a defensive role such as the 2nd Armd. Bde. at Asal Uttar and the 25th Cavalry at Chawinda, '''where they defeated their better equipped but clumsier foes'''</blockquote> |
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#[https://books.google.com.pk/books?id=Tx_DCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA72&redir_esc=y M48 Patton vs Centurion: Indo-Pakistani War 1965]<blockquote>Roughly two Pakistani infantry companies held the area near each objective, but as these were reinforced, applying Indian armour was considered unwise, and an opportunity was lost. Even so, although '''Pakistan forces had halted the Indian offensive''' in the Sialkot region, they had shot their bolt and were exhausted. Pakistani armour had been battered, and stocks of artillery ammunition were nearly expended.</blockquote> |
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#[https://books.google.com.pk/books?id=Vr2SDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA14&redir_esc=y Commanding Military Power: Organizing for Victory and Defeat on the Battlefield]<blockquote>Among the notable defensive victories, however, were the Soviet defeat of the Japanese at Changkufeng Hill in 1938, Japan's repeated failures to retake Henderson Field on Guadalcanal between August and November 1942, the '''Indian failure to defeat the Pakistanis in the tank battle at Chawinda''' in the 1965 war fought between those countries, and Egypt and Syria's ultimately unsuccessful assaults on Israel through the Sinai Peninsula and Golan Heights during the Yom Kippur War.</blockquote> |
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#[https://books.google.com.pk/books?id=XcADAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y Valour Enshrined: 1947-1979] an Indian source<blockquote>In the overall context, the '''Chawinda attack was a failure''' and in the confusion after an unsuccessful operation, the valour of those who fought and died went unheard and unsung. But in the Regiment, the battle of Chawinda will always be remembered and honoured as one more example of bravery in the unending saga of Maratha chivalry.</blockquote> |
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#[https://books.google.com.pk/books?id=5a0NAQAAQBAJ From Kutch to Tashkent: The Indo-Pakistan War of 1965]<blockquote>'''with their successful defence of Chawinda''', and the Indians' inability to take the town must have been demoralising for the troops. The casualties inflicted on Indian troops in the last assault on 19 September effectively meant that 1 Armoured Division was also no longer able to carry out major offensive operations from that date. It appears that tensions amongst the senior commanders of this operation did not assist and it seems that there was also a failure to command from the front, from brigade commanders down. The Indian commander on the whole western front was highly critical of his own forces</blockquote> |
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#[https://books.google.com.pk/books?id=O8JQCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA201&redir_esc=y Tank: 100 Years of the World's Most Important Armored Military Vehicle]<blockquote>During the Battle of Chawinda, the largest armoured engagement since Kursk,''' Pakistani forces halted an Indian invasion of their country'''. In September 1965, the Pakistanis '''blunted a thrust''' by the Indian 1st Armored Division as each side fielded more than 250 tanks. Pakistani armor included the M48 and improved Sherman tanks of World War II vintage, while the Indians committed both Centurions and Shermans to the fight. When it was over, the Pakistanis had lost an estimated 44 tanks, while the ''Indians suffered up to 120 destroyed'', although they later asserted that they had lost only 29 armored vehicles</blockquote> |
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#[https://books.google.com.pk/books?id=nq1aAAAAYAAJ&redir_esc=y A Global Chronology of Conflict: From the Ancient World to the Modern Middle East, Volume 2]<blockquote>The Indians then reinforce and push the Pakistanis back to their base at Chawinda, '''where the Indians are again halted on September 10'''. After the Indians defeat a counterattack, the Pakistanis take up defensive positions. Both sides now reinforce. Although the Indians substantially outnumber the Pakistanis in manpower, many of the Pakistani tanks are superior to those of the Indians, and their artillery has greater range. The Pakistanis are '''ultimately able to push most of the Indian forces back across the international border. Pakistan is the victor in the battle'''.</blockquote> |
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#[https://books.google.com.pk/books?id=3SqCDwAAQBAJ&redir_esc=y A History of the Pakistan Army: Wars and Insurrections]<blockquote>On 12 September the Pakistanis tried without success to retake Phillora, and next day the Indians attempted to outflank Chawinda from the east but, in an impressive display of flexibility, the Pakistanis moved 19 and 20 Lancers and 1 FF (of 1 Armd. Div.) to its defence, and the '''Indian advance was halted after fierce fighting'''... An attack against Chawinda was planned for the 14th, but in a classic employment of good intelligence and efficient artillery the '''Pakistanis located the forming-up place of the Garhwali battalion that was to lead the assault and brought fire down on it. The battalion was forced to withdraw and the attack did not take place'''... On the night of 15/16 September the Indians again tried to outflank the main Pakistani force, this time by pressing west to Jassoran... then south to cut off Chawinda from the rear. Once the village was isolated, the Indians considered it would fall... '''but their armour was engaged so heavily by Pakistani anti-tank weapons that it could not advance further. The battalion held out until 17 September, when it was forced to withdraw to Jassoran'''</blockquote> |
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#[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/lieutenantgeneral-hamid-gul-general-ziaulhaq-s-spymaster-who-was-dismissed-by-benazir-bhutto-and-later-accused-of-supporting-terrorism-10461392.html The Independent]<blockquote>He was credited with contributing to what has been regarded as a''' victory for Pakistan in the Battle of Chawinda''', by holding back the Indian offensive towards Sialkot. The action has been described as the greatest tank battle since the Second World War, and Pakistan commentators called it “the graveyard of Indian tanks”. Hostilities were ended by a UN ceasefire.</blockquote> |
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#[https://thediplomat.com/2015/09/how-india-fought-pakistan-50-years-ago The Diplomat]<blockquote>The Indian and Pakistani armies fought each other another 15 days, during the course of which '''both armies won their share of tactical victories — India in Phillora and Khem Karan, Pakistan in Chawinda''' — but none decisive enough to alter the ultimate result of the war. A ceasefire was called by the UN on September 22 and the Tashkent Declaration was signed between Ayub and Shastri in January 1966, thus bringing an end to hostilities.</blockquote></s> Blocked sock |
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<s>*[[WT:MILHIST]] notified.--[[Special:Contributions/101.53.225.41|101.53.225.41]] ([[User talk:101.53.225.41|talk]]) 20:06, 14 August 2022 (UTC) |
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When the Indian prime minister asked the Army chief, do you want a couple more days to achieve your "spectacular victory", the Army chief replied, "no we are done" (my paraphrasing).<ref>Kalyanaraman, [https://idsa.in/specialfeature/TheContextoftheCeaseFireDecisioninthe1965_skalyanaraman_210915 The Context of the Cease-Fire Decision in the 1965 India-Pakistan War], Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses, 21 September 2015.</ref> So, Johri's idea that Pakistan "got saved" by the ceasefire doesn't hold water. In 20th century wars, you don't get an infinite amount of time to do your job. Either you get it done or call it off. And look at those casualty numbers! It would be considered criminal if it happend today. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 10:11, 14 April 2021 (UTC) |
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'''Comment:''' I also have noticed that [https://www.jstor.org/stable/41393247 this source] is mentioned in the result field even though the source is talking about a stalemate at the whole Sialkot Front, not in this battle which was a part of Sialkot Front. --[[Special:Contributions/101.53.225.41|101.53.225.41]] ([[User talk:101.53.225.41|talk]]) 20:05, 14 August 2022 (UTC)</s> Blocked sock |
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<s>'''Comment:''' As {{U|Mar4d}} has pointed out. Adding the link to previous RFC [[Talk:Battle_of_Chawinda/Archive_1#DID_the_battle_lead_to_Major_Pakistani_victory?|2015 RfC]], here the consensus was for "Pakistani victory" but then it was removed with a one-sided 2018 "RfC". [[Special:Contributions/101.53.225.41|101.53.225.41]] ([[User talk:101.53.225.41|talk]])</s> Blocked sock |
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*It looks to me as if there is scope for a further RfC about this, to confirm or overturn the previous one.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 10:28, 14 April 2021 (UTC) |
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'''Comment''' Could I suggest that you provide fuller bibliographic details for the sources cited above. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 02:32, 15 August 2022 (UTC) It would also be useful to indicate which of these sources were not considered in the course of the previous RfC. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 02:44, 15 August 2022 (UTC) |
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{{reflist-talk}} |
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===Survey (Should the result be changed to Indian defeat or Pakistani victory)=== |
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==RfC: What was the outcome of the Battle of Chawinda?== |
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*'''Comment''' sources that describe India failing to achieve operational goals at this battle do no necessarily conflict with the "inconclusive" interpretation. I'd be curious if there are any military journals that look at this outcome. Since this is generally a contested subject, I suggest avoiding newspapers like The Independent or The Diplomat. The independent even says "what has been regarded as a victory" which begs the question, regarded by who? -[[User:Indy beetle|Indy beetle]] ([[User talk:Indy beetle|talk]]) 20:24, 14 August 2022 (UTC) |
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<s>::The sources that describe it as India's failure they at best fall in the Indian Defeat interpretation. If editors disagree with adding newspaper then I have no problem with it.-[[Special:Contributions/101.53.225.41|101.53.225.41]] ([[User talk:101.53.225.41|talk]])</s> Blocked sock |
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{{rfc|hist|rfcid=F4ABC8A}} |
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*101.53.225.41, what is your [[WP:RFCBRIEF|brief and neutral statement]]? At over 8,000 bytes, the statement above (from the {{tlx|rfc}} tag to the next timestamp) is far too long for {{user|Legobot}} to handle, and so it is not being shown correctly at [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/History and geography]]. The complex formatting may be exacerbating the problem. The RfC may also not be publicised through [[WP:FRS]] until a shorter statement is provided. --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] 🌹 ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 22:00, 14 August 2022 (UTC) |
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**{{to|Redrose64}} fixed format of initial statement. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' , [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>18:20, 17 August 2022 (UTC)</small> |
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**:{{ty}} --[[User:Redrose64|<span style="color:#a80000; background:#ffeeee; text-decoration:inherit">Red</span>rose64]] 🌹 ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]) 05:26, 18 August 2022 (UTC) |
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**::''my pleasure!'' '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:100%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</span>]]''''' <small>10:34, 18 August 2022 (UTC)</small> |
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*'''Inconclusive/Speedy close''' [[MOS:MIL]] is the applicable guidance, with ''X victory'' and ''Inconclusive'' but not ''X defeat'' being permitted parameters for the result field. The parameter should represent the consensus of [good quality, independent] sources. We are explicitly cautioned against [[WP:OR]]. We should also consider the "immediate result" and not subsequent events that may have ''resulted from''. {{U|Indy beetle}} would suggest avoiding newspapers. I would agree. Furthermore, I would be cautious in using popularist histories (ie Bloomsbury and Osprey). The OP would state: {{tq|Now in the light of the sources mentioned above should the result be changed to Indian Defeat or Pakistani Victory?}} However, a goodly number of these source were explicitly considered during the preceding RfC only 18 months ago. I am not seeing what is new or changed that might reasonably lead to a different outcome. The sources would clearly indicate that the Indians failed to achieve their objective. However, this is not the same as a defeat for one side or a victory for the other. Leaving aside the newspaper sources, only two make anything like a categorical statement. Zologa would say: {{tq|the 25th Cavalry at Chawinda, where they defeated their better equipped but clumsier foes}}. But the 25th Cav was only part of the Pakistani force and the statement would be referring to an early phase of the battle, so we can scratch that one. Spencer Tucker (''A Global Chronology of Conflict: From the Ancient World to the Modern Middle East, Volume 2'') would say: {{tq|The Pakistanis are ultimately able to push most of the Indian forces back across the international border. Pakistan is the victor in the battle.}} The problem is, the article is not telling us this and that India still retained control of Pakistani territory? The OP would ask us to read the other sources and draw a conclusion that this is either a Pakistani victory or an Indian defeat. However, when the sources aren't specifically saying as much, that would be [[WP:SYNTH]]. On the other hand, we do have two or three sources that are specifically calling it ''inconclusive'', ''indecisive'' or a ''stalemate'' (the immediate result following Chawinda). Both sides got a bloody nose and lacked the will to continue. One side withdrew and the other side couldn't follow. There is nothing new to discuss. [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 04:55, 15 August 2022 (UTC) |
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**Without being too familiar with the particulars, I would add that an option is always to add a bullet point under "Inconclusive" that says "See Outcome section". -[[User:Indy beetle|Indy beetle]] ([[User talk:Indy beetle|talk]]) 05:58, 15 August 2022 (UTC) |
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* '''Oppose''' {{sbb}} taken in their overall balance, and mostly in particular, these sources endorse "Inconclusive", and none speaks of a clear victory/defeat AFAI can see - without WP:OR interpretation of their content. {{tq|sources that describe India failing to achieve operational goals at this battle do no necessarily conflict with … "inconclusive"}}. I endorse everything Indy beetle & Cinderella157 say below. [[User:Pincrete|Pincrete]] ([[User talk:Pincrete|talk]]) 06:54, 15 August 2022 (UTC) |
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In 2015, the community decided at [[Talk:Battle_of_Chawinda/Archive_1#DID_the_battle_lead_to_Major_Pakistani_victory?|this RfC]] that Pakistan won the Battle of Chawinda. Pro-Indian editors disputed the RfC outcome on the administrator's noticeboard, and the outcome of this RfC close review was to [[Special:Permalink/644921474#Reviewing RfC closure : Battle of Chawinda|confirm]] the Pakistani victory. In 2018, a [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Battle_of_Chawinda/Archive_2#Result talk page consensus] decided that the battle was "inconclusive". At issue in this RfC is the question of which of the previous consensuses takes precedence. |
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* '''Previous RFC stands''' - Two sections above, you find a six-month long RfC barely a year ago, with wide-ranging comments from a variety of editors. It came out with the result of "no consensus"/"inconclusive". What has changed so that a new RfC is warranted again? [[WP:RFCBEFORE]] is not satisfied. -- [[User:Kautilya3|Kautilya3]] ([[User talk:Kautilya3|talk]]) 21:03, 15 August 2022 (UTC) |
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'''Note:''' The Battle of Chawinda was the final engagement of the Second Kashmir War. It is common ground that the Second Kashmir War was inconclusive. The decision needed here is not about the outcome of the campaign, but the outcome of this particular battle within it. |
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*'''Comment''' In before we get further comments along the lines of "but past RfC was inconclusive"; the question wasn't answered then, and the closure itself acknowledged this; again, which of the multiple sources available on the subject clearly negated the Indian military's tactical failure in this battle? Quoting one of the participants from the last RfC, the ''"Indian military were unable to take Chawinda"''. '''[[User:Mar4d|<span style="color: green;">Mar4d</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Mar4d|<span style="color: green;">talk</span>]]) 14:17, 16 August 2022 (UTC) |
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:: Link to the [[Talk:Battle_of_Chawinda/Archive_1#DID_the_battle_lead_to_Major_Pakistani_victory?|2015 RfC]], where the consensus was for "Pakistani victory" before it was removed post the one-sided 2018 "RfC". '''[[User:Mar4d|<span style="color: green;">Mar4d</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Mar4d|<span style="color: green;">talk</span>]]) 14:22, 16 August 2022 (UTC) |
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*'''Pakistani victory.''' Sources have been clear all along that it was the overall conflict that was "inconclusive". The final battle of that conflict, at Chawinda, was a decisive victory for Pakistan. Had it not been so, then the overall outcome would not have been so "inconclusive", imho. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' , [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>18:34, 17 August 2022 (UTC)</small> |
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*I was the closer of the 2015 RfC, and I've been asked to comment here by a message on my talk page. When I closed the 2015 RfC I knew nothing about the Battle of Chawinda, but since then I've learned a lot about it, having been required to defend my close against attempts to overturn it and having read a lot of commentary and sources.{{pb}}The battle of Chawinda was the final battle of an inconclusive war. Territorial changes after the battle were minimal and not material, and the Indian side likes to portray the Battle of Chawinda as a draw. This case is arguable, and if you cherry-pick the right reliable sources and pretend the others don't exist, you can justify the outcome of the 2018 RfC. But really, this ignores the fact that India outnumbered and outgunned Pakistan at Chawinda. The Indian Army attempted a set piece assault on fortified positions and was bloodily repulsed. The Pakistani side likes to portray it as a glorious last stand that held off the enemy onslaught until peace was achieved.{{pb}}Personally, I think the Pakistani side of it is less wrong than the Indian side. Pakistan was trying to hold India off, and succeeded. This was the best result for Pakistan that was militarily possible.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 19:03, 17 August 2022 (UTC) |
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Procedurally speaking, there is dispute about whether RfC nominators should sign their nomination. I'm choosing to sign this one.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 12:56, 15 April 2021 (UTC) |
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**Hear hear, well put – much to be said for the ability of people to [[The Territorial Imperative|defend their home territory]]. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' , [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>01:14, 18 August 2022 (UTC)</small> |
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*'''Comment''' For the record, I am confident that the IP editor who started this RfC is an indef-blocked sockpuppeteer. [[User:Girth Summit|<span style="font-family:Impact;color:#006400;">Girth</span> <span style="font-family:Impact;color:#4B0082;">Summit</span>]][[User talk:Girth Summit|<sub style="font-family:Segoe print;color:blue;"> (blether)</sub>]] 11:00, 18 August 2022 (UTC) |
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{{abottom}} |
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== RFC on the Result - Pakistani Victory/Indian defeat == |
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*[[WT:MILHIST]] notified.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 12:59, 15 April 2021 (UTC) |
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{{atop|RfC started by a ban evading sock, closing it per [[WP:DENY]]. '''[[User:Aman.kumar.goel|Aman Kumar Goel]]''' <sup>(''[[User talk:Aman.kumar.goel|Talk]]'')</sup> 20:33, 8 September 2022 (UTC)}} |
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*:{{small|{{Yo|S Marshall}} where is there a dispute about nominators signing their noms? - [[User:Thewolfchild|<span style="color: black">wolf</span>]] 16:04, 15 April 2021 (UTC)}} |
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<s>As already mentioned, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Battle_of_Chawinda/Archive_1#DID_the_battle_lead_to_Major_Pakistani_victory? an RFC concluded] that it was a Pakistani Victory. The decision was further reviewed and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=644921474#Reviewing_RfC_closure_:_Battle_of_Chawinda consensus] was once again in favor of the RFC - Pakistani Victory. |
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*::{{small|{{Yo|Thewolfchild}} [[Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Archive 17#Signing RFC's|Here]], for example.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 16:10, 15 April 2021 (UTC)}} |
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The participants of this short talk page [[Talk:Battle of Chawinda/Archive 2#Result|discussion]] concluded the battle was inconclusive. |
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===Survey=== |
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Should the result of the Battle of Chawinda be "Pakistani Victory" or "Indian defeat"? [[User:Joooshhh|Joooshhh]] ([[User talk:Joooshhh|talk]]) 19:29, 1 September 2022 (UTC) |
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*'''Pakistani victory'''. A quick skim of some sources reinforces those cited above and it seems to be fairly clear. The sources agree that in this battle the Indians failed to achieve their objectives and the Pakistanis succeeded in achieving theirs. [[User:Gog the Mild|Gog the Mild]] ([[User talk:Gog the Mild|talk]]) 14:49, 15 April 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep the status-quo as is'''. Borne out by multiple reliable sources. And when a consensus has been changed, it goes without saying that the new one takes precedence, moreso when it has enjoyed wide acceptance. More particularly, the latter discussion dismissed as unreliable the very sources that the RFC took for granted, and no argument seems to have been made against that. [[User:Srijanx22|Srijanx22]] ([[User_talk:Srijanx22|talk]]) 15:02, 15 April 2021 (UTC) |
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*:Well, let's make that now. The talk page discussion was initiated by Indian editor Razer2115, who contended that: (1) A source was unreliable because that source was itself based on Pakistani sources (but he doesn't say why he believes that, or how it affects the source's reliability); (2) The fact that a source says it was a "debacle" for India doesn't mean that Pakistan won (a pathetic argument that we can safely disregard); (3) He couldn't find the Zaloga source, so it should be inadmissible (which is directly counter to our core [[WP:V|verifiability policy]], see [[WP:SOURCEACCESS]]); and (4) the Amin source is unreliable because it's by a foreign policy specialist rather than a military one (even though his ''own argument'' is that the battle was ended by a UN-mandated ceasefire). With these four rather dubious points, there was agreement from Indian editor RaviC, confirmed sockpuppet MyLord, Indian editor Sdmarathe, editor of undisclosed nationality 1990'sguy, Indian editor Adamgerber80, and Indian editor DBigXray. In other words, that whole discussion consisted of Indian editors deciding that India hadn't lost, on the basis of arguments that the previous and much more thorough RfC ''had already examined and rejected''.—[[User:S Marshall|<b style="font-family: Verdana; color: Maroon;">S Marshall</b>]] <small>[[User talk:S Marshall|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/S Marshall|C]]</small> 16:06, 15 April 2021 (UTC) |
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::*Read [[WP:ASPERSIONS]]. Your analysis of peoples' comments based on their nationalities is violates [[WP:DE]] as well. What really matters is that comments by these users outweigh your grossly misleading personal views and you have provided no rebuttal for that so far. '''[[User:Aman.kumar.goel|Aman Kumar Goel]]''' <sup>(''[[User talk:Aman.kumar.goel|Talk]]'')</sup> 02:32, 16 April 2021 (UTC) |
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*'''Pakistan victory.''' Sources agree that Pakistan's military did not yield Chawinda to India's military. Sources also agree that India's military did not attack Chawinda. Not one editor has been able to produce any reliable source that disputes these two facts. So while the war's result was inconclusive, the Battle of Chawinda was a clear victory for Pakistan. So to answer the RfC's question, it is the 2015 consensus that should take precedence and be upheld. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>19:25, 15 April 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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*'''Oppose any change to infobox'''. The fighting was ended by a UN-brokered cease-fire, [https://books.google.com/books?id=oFP5DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA160&dq=%22+chawinda%22+ceasefire&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwio7Oel8fvvAhXSb30KHXwdDYAQ6AEwB3oECAUQAw#v=onepage&q=%22%20chawinda%22%20ceasefire&f=false as per this book] (p.160) by Jeremy Black, about as reliable as they come. Neither side seems to have scored a definitive victory, unlike the case in regard to the [[Battle of Asal Uttar|battle at Asal Uttar]], where the "{{tq|Indian Centurions defeated the 264 tanks of Pakistan's First Armored Division, mostly Pattons}}", as Black states on the same page in his book. While the Pakistanis did put up a comparatively better show at Chawinda, as Black notes, none of these many sources have interpreted that to be a victory for Pakistan. The Indians continued to camp therein and continued to have possession of more than 500 square kilometers of Pakistani territory in that area. Regards, '''[[User:Aman.kumar.goel|Aman Kumar Goel]]''' <sup>(''[[User talk:Aman.kumar.goel|Talk]]'')</sup> 02:32, 16 April 2021 (UTC) |
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* '''Pakistani Victory''' It's cut and dry - as the reliable sources state - the Indians failed to attack, the Pakistanis successful defended themselves. [[User:Joooshhh|Joooshhh]] ([[User talk:Joooshhh|talk]]) 19:58, 1 September 2022 (UTC)</s> |
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*'''Inconclusive''' Firstly, we must disentangle what the sources say about this particular battle from the greater campaign. Defence is one of the four phases of war. A victory is not achieved from defence but from subsequent counter-attack. A failure to achieve the objectives of an attack "may" constitute a defeat for the attacker but does not necessarily constitute a victory for a defender. However, this is not for us to determine but for the sources to determine. Further, it is not for us to reach conclusions such as: when author X says such-and-such, he was meaning that it was a victory for Y. It is not up to us to put words into the mouth of a source because of how we might interpret their meaning. That would be [[WP:SYNTH]]. Stating that an outcome is "inconclusive" is less problematic if the consensus of sources is not to attribute victory to one side or the other. |
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* '''Close RfC''' This seems ridiculous to make an RfC after a block evading IP created one a few weeks prior and now an account with 17 edits on a page that is [[WP:ECP|ECP]]? This does not seem like the correct protocol. – [[User:The Grid|<span style="color:navy">The Grid</span>]] ([[User talk:The Grid|<span style="color:navy">talk</span>]]) 22:12, 1 September 2022 (UTC) |
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{{abottom}} |
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== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 December 2023 == |
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:The role of the infobox is to summarise the article. The outcome should be discussed in the "aftermath" section (or similar), where the views expressed in reliable sources can be summarised. Where there are conflicting views of the result, a balanced account should be given, including the reasons given in the sources for reaching different conclusions. This has not occurred in this article. Further, it is not the role of the infoxbox to be a substitute for this. There are some six sources cited in respect to the result in the infobox and only one specifically refers to an Indian defeat (but not a Pakistani victory). Unfortunately, I was only able to see a snippet of the text in Google Books and couldn't determine the context of the statement. If we were to report this as a "Pakistani victory" it should reflect the consensus among authors of good quality reliable sources that explicitly describe it as a victory. This is not the case. On the otherhand, the consensus of the sources is that it was "inconclusive", being both explicitly stated and because a victory is not explicitly stated. In any case, the body of the article should be improved in respect to the outcome, in which case, "see Aftermath" could be a better option. Regards, [[User:Cinderella157|Cinderella157]] ([[User talk:Cinderella157|talk]]) 02:39, 16 April 2021 (UTC) |
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::Your explanation appears to be very... wanting. {{gi|A victory is not achieved from defence ...}}, and yet there are literally thousands of times in the past when it was a good defense that led to victory for the defenders. {{gi|... failure to achieve the objectives of an attack "may" constitute a defeat for the attacker but does not necessarily constitute a victory for a defender.}} Sorry, but that also is a ??? in my book. And it is not [[WP:SYNTH]] to conclude that when sources say "Pakistan's military did not yield Chawinda to India's military," and "India's military did not attack, take and hold Chawinda" that India's military was defeated and Pakistan's military was victorious. Nobody's putting words in the mouths of the reliable sources, which are crystal clear on these two facts. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>04:49, 16 April 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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{{Edit extended-protected|Battle of Chawinda|answered=yes}} |
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===Discussion=== |
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Please add the following sections |
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==Other 1971 battles in the vicinity== |
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What do RS say?[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 14:43, 15 April 2021 (UTC) |
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* [[Battle of Asal Uttar]] |
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* [[Battle of Chumb]] |
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* [[Battle of Chawinda]] |
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* [[Battle of Ichogil Bund]] |
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* [[Battle of Kasur]] |
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* [[Pul Kanjri#Pul|Battle of Pul Kanjri]] |
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== See also == |
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:@[[User:Gog the Mild|Gog the Mild]]: They don't. Surely Pakistan had no objective of losing more land to India and also suffering more casualties than India. [[User:Srijanx22|Srijanx22]] ([[User_talk:Srijanx22|talk]]) 15:02, 15 April 2021 (UTC) |
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* [[Indo-Pakistan Wars]] |
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* [[Operation Grand Slam]] |
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Thank you. |
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:{{to|Slatersteven}} RS say two pertinent facts: 1) Pakistan's military held on to and did not cede Chawinda to India's military, and 2) India's military did not attack and take Chawinda. Those two facts are not in dispute among reliable sources. '''''[[User:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:92%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">P.I. Ellsworth</span>]]''''' [[Editor|<span style="color:black">ed.</span>]] [[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<sup>put'r there</sup>]] <small>19:45, 15 April 2021 (UTC)</small> |
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[[Special:Contributions/119.74.238.54|119.74.238.54]] ([[User talk:119.74.238.54|talk]]) 03:53, 18 December 2023 (UTC) |
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:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' please provide [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:EEp --> [[User:Spintendo|<span style="font-size:85%;color:#f00;border:2.5px solid red;border-radius:15px;"> <b>Spintendo</b> </span>]] 04:32, 28 December 2023 (UTC) |
Latest revision as of 14:25, 10 February 2024
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Territorial changes
The territorial changes section says that
India captures around 460 km (180 sq mi) of Pakistani territory
While the source cited to it doesn't say that it was captured during the Battle of Chawinda, rather it was captured in the Sialkot region. So it should be removed as the Indian advance was halted at Chawinda they didn't gain any territory in this battle. LiamKhan469 (talk) 21:11, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- This appears to be a fair observation of the actual battle. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:50, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Cinderella157:Then please remove it.LiamKhan469 (talk) 15:45, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
RFC: Should the result be changed to Indian defeat or Pakistani victory
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
In light of the sources mentioned below, should the result be changed from "inconclusive" to Indian defeat or Pakistani victory? Thanks --101.53.225.41 (talk) 20:04, 14 August 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock
Following are some independent sources that state that this battle result was an Indian defeat or a Pakistani victory:
Independent sources that states that this battle was a Indian defeat or a Pakistani victory
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*WT:MILHIST notified.--101.53.225.41 (talk) 20:06, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
Comment: I also have noticed that this source is mentioned in the result field even though the source is talking about a stalemate at the whole Sialkot Front, not in this battle which was a part of Sialkot Front. --101.53.225.41 (talk) 20:05, 14 August 2022 (UTC) Blocked sock
Comment: As Mar4d has pointed out. Adding the link to previous RFC 2015 RfC, here the consensus was for "Pakistani victory" but then it was removed with a one-sided 2018 "RfC". 101.53.225.41 (talk) Blocked sock
Comment Could I suggest that you provide fuller bibliographic details for the sources cited above. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:32, 15 August 2022 (UTC) It would also be useful to indicate which of these sources were not considered in the course of the previous RfC. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:44, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
Survey (Should the result be changed to Indian defeat or Pakistani victory)
- Comment sources that describe India failing to achieve operational goals at this battle do no necessarily conflict with the "inconclusive" interpretation. I'd be curious if there are any military journals that look at this outcome. Since this is generally a contested subject, I suggest avoiding newspapers like The Independent or The Diplomat. The independent even says "what has been regarded as a victory" which begs the question, regarded by who? -Indy beetle (talk) 20:24, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
::The sources that describe it as India's failure they at best fall in the Indian Defeat interpretation. If editors disagree with adding newspaper then I have no problem with it.-101.53.225.41 (talk) Blocked sock
- 101.53.225.41, what is your brief and neutral statement? At over 8,000 bytes, the statement above (from the
{{rfc}}
tag to the next timestamp) is far too long for Legobot (talk · contribs) to handle, and so it is not being shown correctly at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/History and geography. The complex formatting may be exacerbating the problem. The RfC may also not be publicised through WP:FRS until a shorter statement is provided. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:00, 14 August 2022 (UTC)- To editor Redrose64: fixed format of initial statement. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'r there 18:20, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- Inconclusive/Speedy close MOS:MIL is the applicable guidance, with X victory and Inconclusive but not X defeat being permitted parameters for the result field. The parameter should represent the consensus of [good quality, independent] sources. We are explicitly cautioned against WP:OR. We should also consider the "immediate result" and not subsequent events that may have resulted from. Indy beetle would suggest avoiding newspapers. I would agree. Furthermore, I would be cautious in using popularist histories (ie Bloomsbury and Osprey). The OP would state:
Now in the light of the sources mentioned above should the result be changed to Indian Defeat or Pakistani Victory?
However, a goodly number of these source were explicitly considered during the preceding RfC only 18 months ago. I am not seeing what is new or changed that might reasonably lead to a different outcome. The sources would clearly indicate that the Indians failed to achieve their objective. However, this is not the same as a defeat for one side or a victory for the other. Leaving aside the newspaper sources, only two make anything like a categorical statement. Zologa would say:the 25th Cavalry at Chawinda, where they defeated their better equipped but clumsier foes
. But the 25th Cav was only part of the Pakistani force and the statement would be referring to an early phase of the battle, so we can scratch that one. Spencer Tucker (A Global Chronology of Conflict: From the Ancient World to the Modern Middle East, Volume 2) would say:The Pakistanis are ultimately able to push most of the Indian forces back across the international border. Pakistan is the victor in the battle.
The problem is, the article is not telling us this and that India still retained control of Pakistani territory? The OP would ask us to read the other sources and draw a conclusion that this is either a Pakistani victory or an Indian defeat. However, when the sources aren't specifically saying as much, that would be WP:SYNTH. On the other hand, we do have two or three sources that are specifically calling it inconclusive, indecisive or a stalemate (the immediate result following Chawinda). Both sides got a bloody nose and lacked the will to continue. One side withdrew and the other side couldn't follow. There is nothing new to discuss. Cinderella157 (talk) 04:55, 15 August 2022 (UTC)- Without being too familiar with the particulars, I would add that an option is always to add a bullet point under "Inconclusive" that says "See Outcome section". -Indy beetle (talk) 05:58, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose (Summoned by bot) taken in their overall balance, and mostly in particular, these sources endorse "Inconclusive", and none speaks of a clear victory/defeat AFAI can see - without WP:OR interpretation of their content.
sources that describe India failing to achieve operational goals at this battle do no necessarily conflict with … "inconclusive"
. I endorse everything Indy beetle & Cinderella157 say below. Pincrete (talk) 06:54, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- Previous RFC stands - Two sections above, you find a six-month long RfC barely a year ago, with wide-ranging comments from a variety of editors. It came out with the result of "no consensus"/"inconclusive". What has changed so that a new RfC is warranted again? WP:RFCBEFORE is not satisfied. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:03, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- Comment In before we get further comments along the lines of "but past RfC was inconclusive"; the question wasn't answered then, and the closure itself acknowledged this; again, which of the multiple sources available on the subject clearly negated the Indian military's tactical failure in this battle? Quoting one of the participants from the last RfC, the "Indian military were unable to take Chawinda". Mar4d (talk) 14:17, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
- Pakistani victory. Sources have been clear all along that it was the overall conflict that was "inconclusive". The final battle of that conflict, at Chawinda, was a decisive victory for Pakistan. Had it not been so, then the overall outcome would not have been so "inconclusive", imho. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'r there 18:34, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- I was the closer of the 2015 RfC, and I've been asked to comment here by a message on my talk page. When I closed the 2015 RfC I knew nothing about the Battle of Chawinda, but since then I've learned a lot about it, having been required to defend my close against attempts to overturn it and having read a lot of commentary and sources.The battle of Chawinda was the final battle of an inconclusive war. Territorial changes after the battle were minimal and not material, and the Indian side likes to portray the Battle of Chawinda as a draw. This case is arguable, and if you cherry-pick the right reliable sources and pretend the others don't exist, you can justify the outcome of the 2018 RfC. But really, this ignores the fact that India outnumbered and outgunned Pakistan at Chawinda. The Indian Army attempted a set piece assault on fortified positions and was bloodily repulsed. The Pakistani side likes to portray it as a glorious last stand that held off the enemy onslaught until peace was achieved.Personally, I think the Pakistani side of it is less wrong than the Indian side. Pakistan was trying to hold India off, and succeeded. This was the best result for Pakistan that was militarily possible.—S Marshall T/C 19:03, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- Hear hear, well put – much to be said for the ability of people to defend their home territory. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'r there 01:14, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
- Comment For the record, I am confident that the IP editor who started this RfC is an indef-blocked sockpuppeteer. Girth Summit (blether) 11:00, 18 August 2022 (UTC)
RFC on the Result - Pakistani Victory/Indian defeat
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
As already mentioned, an RFC concluded that it was a Pakistani Victory. The decision was further reviewed and consensus was once again in favor of the RFC - Pakistani Victory.
The participants of this short talk page discussion concluded the battle was inconclusive.
Should the result of the Battle of Chawinda be "Pakistani Victory" or "Indian defeat"? Joooshhh (talk) 19:29, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
Pakistani Victory It's cut and dry - as the reliable sources state - the Indians failed to attack, the Pakistanis successful defended themselves. Joooshhh (talk) 19:58, 1 September 2022 (UTC)- Close RfC This seems ridiculous to make an RfC after a block evading IP created one a few weeks prior and now an account with 17 edits on a page that is ECP? This does not seem like the correct protocol. – The Grid (talk) 22:12, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 December 2023
Please add the following sections
==Other 1971 battles in the vicinity==
- Battle of Asal Uttar
- Battle of Chumb
- Battle of Chawinda
- Battle of Ichogil Bund
- Battle of Kasur
- Battle of Pul Kanjri
== See also ==
Thank you. 119.74.238.54 (talk) 03:53, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
- Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Spintendo 04:32, 28 December 2023 (UTC)