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:::Only problem is WP is [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a democracy|not built on free speech]]. '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>11</sup></font></b>]] [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Grsz11|<b><font color="black"><sup>→Review!</sup></font></b>]]''' 20:01, 1 November 2008 (UTC) |
:::Only problem is WP is [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a democracy|not built on free speech]]. '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>11</sup></font></b>]] [[Wikipedia:Editor review/Grsz11|<b><font color="black"><sup>→Review!</sup></font></b>]]''' 20:01, 1 November 2008 (UTC) |
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←Ok -let's move on from the constitutional argument please. Tim and everyone, see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Compromise here] - it has been more or less agreed that the articles about the four principle players will be on semi-protection until Tuesday, full protection starting Tuesday morning until the results are announced at which time we'll go back to semi-protection. Assuming nothing changes. <strong>[[User:Tvoz|Tvoz]]</strong>/<small>[[User talk:Tvoz|talk]]</small> 20:15, 1 November 2008 (UTC) |
←Ok -let's move on from the constitutional argument please. Tim and everyone, see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Compromise here] - it has been more or less agreed that the articles about the four principle players will be on semi-protection until Tuesday, full protection starting Tuesday morning until the results are announced at which time we'll go back to semi-protection. Assuming nothing changes. <strong>[[User:Tvoz|Tvoz]]</strong>/<small>[[User talk:Tvoz|talk]]</small> 20:15, 1 November 2008 (UTC) |
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== Bad faith removal of information == |
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I find it extremely troubling that editors who often edit positive information have removed information '''and the talk page discussion from this page.''' This suggests possible bad faith. I will assume good faith by putting back the information and see if they remove it (which would show bad faith). [[User:Midemer|Midemer]] ([[User talk:Midemer|talk]]) 22:03, 1 November 2008 (UTC) |
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Removed info: |
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Propaganda for the next President should not be permitted on wP == |
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There is a pro-Obama bias. wp must not be the american propaganda source. wp must be neutral. for example, sections are supposed to be summaries of th sub-articles. yet this article hides neutral (slightly negative) information. this could be that nobody thought of it or it could be the work of the campaign supporters. |
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for example, mr. obama's campaign got everyone disqualified from the ballot so he won unopposed, not unlike north korean dictator, kim il sung. this was his first election to the illinois senate. later, he didn't try this for his other elections. we must make a note of it in the article |
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Originally placed by editor BBBH. |
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I disagree with the above (unrefined language) except I agree with the edit about the Obama disqualifying others from the ballot. |
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[[User:Midemer|Midemer]] ([[User talk:Midemer|talk]]) 22:03, 1 November 2008 (UTC) |
Revision as of 22:03, 1 November 2008
Template:Community article probation
![]() | Barack Obama is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
![]() | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on August 18, 2004. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 |
This page has archives. Sections older than 5 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
Closed/resolved topics
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
ResolvedJermyWhy are changes like adding "mohammad" to his name at the top of the article keep making it in? Why can people edit the main page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.101.2.175 (talk) 14:16, 20 October 2008 (UTC) Someone who is able to needs to remove the vandalism from the section "Early Life and Career" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mlizard19 (talk • contribs) 15:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC) One of the links under footnote 20 leads to a downloader virus my antivirus blocked. I dunno how to remove it (sorry...I'm inexperienced at this) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.231.76.126 (talk) 12:47, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Offensive linesWould someone please delete the offensive three lines that were inserted under the second heading in this article.!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So not appropriate, respectful or even particularly civilized. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.153.75.236 (talk) 15:21, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Derogatory remarks entered in last edit. Please remove. Rjwildcat (talk) 15:32, 22 October 2008 (UTC)Barbara Johnson
Next time, please check the history, compare versions, then delete whatever vandalism was made. You don't really need to post a comment about vandalism; on a page like this, someone will see it within minutes and change it. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 22:40, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Erase the horrible comments throughout this documentWho ever is the CEO or person in charge of WIKIPEDIA need to correct and block this article from futer abuse. **** —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sweetmenmine (talk • contribs) 16:46, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Yes you are correct, it is now erased. There were some horrible things under the early life section. Thank you, God Bless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sweetmenmine (talk • contribs) 16:57, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
I read in the first part the sentence "he's half-monkey". Doesn't this qualify as vandalism? Fred 87.14.193.44 (talk) 18:53, 28 October 2008 (UTC) Assassination plotThe recent assassination attempt all over the news right now is certainly interesting, but I don't think it relates to Obama's BLP article. It's more of a news event than a biographically significant event, since the attempt failed. On the other hand, it is most certainly notable. So... do we do anything with it? --GoodDamon 23:01, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Barack Hussein Obama (please edit)The middle name given for Obama on his Wiki page is both false and offensive. Will an established user please correct the page? Lacrosseizmygame (talk) 04:33, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Barack ObamaHello. Is there anybody who knows anything about the "stem cell research" with Barack Obama? And also The financial crisis with Obama? If you know a site I can find the information on, please write it :) Thank you. Hope you can help me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.116.17.11 (talk)
Fringe citizenship/birth/lawsuit/other discussionsClosing and consolidating as unlikely to result in any change to the article. --GoodDamon 18:47, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Return of the fringe birth theoryUnfortunately, some edits by Ferrylodge returned the uniformly rejected stuff about fringe conspiracies and lawsuits over Obama's allegedly non-USA birth. In contrast to some other editors, FL inserted this stuff into a footnote, and with less breathlessly indignant tone. Nonetheless, fringe rumors are strikingly non-notable. Anywhere, but especially in a WP:BLP. Aggravating the bad edits, several other editors came along and made the wording worse by several small steps, each bad. Bad, bad. I've rolled back a few versions to the stable description of "Early Life" that no one has suggested any good reason to change here on talk. Please bring any proposed changes here first... but just skip any needless discussion of fringe theories that might get added there. LotLE×talk 06:29, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
The problem here is that I don't think a fringe theory violates WP:FRINGE de facto, just as making a point here doesn't always violate WP:POINT. This and this and this and this do not really constitute fringe journals, IMO. XF Law talk at me 07:45, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Mombasa, KenyaI edited the article to restore neutral point of view concerning the birth place. It is a place of an ongoing legal dispute and both possible places are mentioned. Incidentally, Berg's story makes perfect sense at this moment and he also has testimonies of Obama's black grandmother and half-siblings. [5] --Lumidek (talk) 06:44, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Court filing claims Obama not eligible to run for the president of the United StatesI hope that this will stop the useless debates above. The judge in Pennsylvania just ruled that Barack Hussein Obama is not eligible to run for the White House. [8] He must also pay USD 48,300 to Philip Berg to cover all the expenses so far. --Lumidek (talk) 14:18, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Obama has not objected to the accusations, therefore legitimizing them legally according to obamacrimes.com74.212.31.26 (talk) 18:27, 24 October 2008 (UTC)ED
He also made official trips to Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and Africa.
This sentence in the opening section is completely absurd. What "official business" would a senator have? The article hardly mentions official business abroad in the body, nor does it appear that Obama has anymore official travel abroad than anyone other senator, but in fact the contrary. The way this reads right now gives a subtle impression of POV prose that should result in either this sentence being removed or the information in the body of the article being expanded per WP:N. 70.250.214.209 (talk) 23:02, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Because it suggests that Obama has foreign policy experience. Thats why it's there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.33.218.39 (talk) 23:06, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
First African-American nominated?Please see the answer to Q2 for why Obama is referred to as the "first African-American nominated". Closing discussion. --Bobblehead (rants) 21:16, 26 October 2008 (UTC)}} I am not clear on the claim Mr. Obama is the first "African-American" nominated...since his mother was Caucasian, is it proper to refer to Mr. Obama as "African-American" ? Should it more properly by the first "half-African-American."? It seems that if he is half African-American and is half Caucasian, could he not be also properly called "Caucasian."? Why is Mr. Obama always referred to as "African-American"? It seems with other groups, if one has one parent that is German, Irish, etc. and the other not, they are often referred to as "half-German" or "half-Irish" etc. For example, I don't believe Tiger Woods is necessarily referred to as "African-American." I am not clear here in terms of the biology/lineage issues here. Is there an expert in this area that could comment? Thanks.Vextration (talk) 05:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Obama birthplaceClosing discussion per WP:BLP, WP:FRINGE, etc. --Bobblehead (rants) 18:38, 28 October 2008 (UTC)}} Obama was born at Kapiolani and not at Queen's, right? "Center for Women and Children" doesn't exactly strike some people as signifying hospital, and so someone somewhere supposed he was born at Queen's Hospital when they read "Honolulu". A coupla people, Philip Berg and some guy named Corsi, alleged that Obama's paternal family members had said the Obama was born at the Coast Hospital in Mombasa, Kenya. This is an obvious stretch for one reason: airline policies don't make sense. The Kenya story says that Obama's mom flew to Kenya and then tried to leave due to Kenyan mistreatment of women, and that the airline prevented her from doing so because she was too close to term. So how would that airline allow her to fly to Kenya in the first place? She would've been obviously pregnant. The Kenya story is hogwash, plain and simple, and Bam was born either at Kapiolani or Queen's. But are you sure Kapiolani is the right hospital? 204.52.215.107 (talk) 16:18, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
We should cover Obama's groundbreaking political techniquesAnd I quote Barack Obama's website [10], "Studies have shown that kids can affect their parents and their siblings’ opinions and even change the opinions of older family members . . . including those of voting age. Are you still with me? Great, Let’s get started!" And also here: "For the first time in campaign history, children ages 12 and under, have a place to go and actually vote—through their voice. What a great way to be introduced to politics and to express your support for Senator Obama." Obviously this is pretty groundbreaking and this deserves a mention in the article.TheGoodLocust (talk) 18:44, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
For the first time in history what? Kids can sign a poster for Obama, whoa, how revolutionary! GrszReview! 18:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
And PS. Grsz11 just template warned me...how rude. DigitalNinja 19:15, 28 October 2008 (UTC) (undent) He's not a journalist, he's a commentator with a moral compass that actually points North. But yes, I was hoping someone would see the irony in that statement. DigitalNinja 19:19, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Apparantly Scholastic has conducted child elections since 1940 [11]. GrszReview! 19:26, 28 October 2008 (UTC) Three editors (myself, Grsz11, and Wikidemon) have now questioned the notability of this material. If an independent reliable source isn't put forward that establishes its notability, the material cannot be included. In that case, further discussion will be unproductive and the thread should be archived. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 19:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
The claim that Barack obama gave $1 million dollars to "racially charged organizations" which have been described as "controversial"This isn't going anywhere and is just an excuse for people to reignite past conflicts. Gamaliel (talk) 19:33, 28 October 2008 (UTC)}} For example, the South Shore Village Collaborative says, on the first page of its application, "Our children need to understand the historical context of our struggles for liberation from those forces that seek to destroy us." Since these have been described as controversial and racially charged - and not by me, then appropriate adjectives should be included to describe his actions with the Woods fund and CAC in this article. TheGoodLocust (talk) 18:39, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
(undent) Ok, I think we need to have a cup of tea on this one. Lets keep it civil. In fact, why don't we just all meet and have a nice, relaxing Wikiparty. I'll bring soda, GoodLocust can bring the chips, and I know; all the rest of you guys can merge all your wealth into one location and use the combined sum to contribute any food/drinks you'd like according to each one their need. That way, we can get along and agree with how to proceed. :) DigitalNinja 19:22, 28 October 2008 (UTC) We should remove the text that says "Obama spoke out against the war"
Enough of this please. Gamaliel (talk) 19:42, 28 October 2008 (UTC) Most of these desribe Obama's funding on the AAAN as "controversial" and I suspect these would be also good for updating the Rashid Khalidi and AAAN articles (among others) in addition to adding more detail in this article. http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/opinion/sfl-barackbash1,0,7527621.story http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS134696+25-Feb-2008+PRN20080225 TheGoodLocust (talk) 03:05, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
(undent) You're right. I suppose it's nothing worth noting that Fox News is one of the largest (or largest period) news networks in the world. I suppose most of the world is biased though...right? 75.33.218.39 (talk) 03:57, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Proof of Wikipedia hacking & abuse!Since this thread is wasting the time of editors who are trying to help someone who does not want to be helped, it isn't funny anymore and has been archived. --barneca (talk) 15:43, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
If you hurry up and view googles cache before google updates it you will see there is no mention of Barack's baptism at the Trinity United Church of Christ. So this Barack Obama wiki went from detailed information about Barack's baptism (~~ one month ago) to nothing (as of yesterdy) to it's present outline of his baptism. As of late yesterday I could not find any history of yesterdays insertion of Barack's baptism in this wiki article. This proves that wikipedia pages are being modified at a high level. As suspected, to say the least the wikipedia website is being abused for political purposes. I know for fact that ~~ one month ago the Barack Obama wiki article contained detailed information about his baptism. For example it mentioned the entire name of the church, which is "Trinity United Church of Christ." At this moment the Barack Obama article only says "He was baptized at Trinity church in 1988." I searched high and low. I've been a system admin for several Unix servers since 1997. I've been a software engineer for ~ 30 years and was programming computers since the age of 13. So I know how to search a web page, and I literally search dozens of times on the Barack Obama web page. So without any wiki history the wiki article went from a detailed mention of Barack's baptism, to nothing, and now back to an outline of his baptism. At least I now have my personal proof what is happening at wikipedia. Having been a system admin and software engineer, I know how easy it is to place backdoors on websites to allow key people to modify the pages and history logs without a trace. What a shame. Can't humanity accomplish anything free of abuse?--PaulLowrance (talk) 13:51, 29 October 2008 (UTC) BTW, the IP address, 209.85.173.104, of the above link is owned by google. It is not my IP address or web server.--PaulLowrance (talk) 13:53, 29 October 2008 (UTC) Hopefully this will be my last day at wikipedia for awhile, but if you care about your wiki community then could you please report this to higher authority? I'm certain the founder would like to know if wikipedia is being hacked or abused, especially for political purposes. I provided the proof. As you can see the google cache server recorded the Barack Obama history page yesterday showing there was no mention of the baptism, but as of late yesterday it magically reappeared. I checked every history change that occured yesterday and there was no insertion of his baptism.--PaulLowrance (talk) 14:01, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Obama and Khalidi close friendsdiscussion seems to be over; no reasonable likelihood of leading to improvement to article According to a new unreleased video tape, Obama has a close friendship with a Palestine Radical according to mainstream media. Is it notable to mention his close friendship with him? 68.143.88.2 (talk) 16:11, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Can we please declare a moratorium on election-year talking points in all Obama and McCain related articles until November 5th? Unless McCain eats a puppy on live television or Obama sets himself on fire at a press conference, no OMFGBIGNEWS coming out between now and the election should go into any article. --GoodDamon 17:43, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) And I certainly hope you didn't think my questions were bogus. I sat here and read for 20 minutes trying to find out what I was doing wrong (or, more to the point why my pattern of thought was inconsistent with policy). If I'm going to contribute effectively, I need to know what I should do regarding my contributions, and that is exactly what I'm trying to learn. I'm actually a little offended that you'd say I was posting bogus questions; I really hope I didn't send any innuendo that I was attempting such actions. DigitalNinja 20:21, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Will this article become more NPOV once the election is over?There are several editors here who will not allow any of the controversial issues in Obama's life to be referenced. This is a disservice to Wikipedia readers. Here are just a few that have not made the article.
I will be glad when the election is over. Hopefully Wikipedia can get back to its mission on November 5.RonCram (talk) 14:11, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) I for one think that a full page lock is a great idea. If that doesn't work, maybe we can figure out a way to keep all opposition from changing the article for the worst. Great call everyone. DigitalNinja 19:27, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Closing. There's nothing in this section that will end up in the article. There's way too much acrimony and too many insults flying around in this section. There's no real reason to maintain it any longer. If you have a source for information that is not from CNS, WND, NewsMax, or BarackObamaIsSatanIncarnate.com, feel free to open a new discussion on it.
(unindent) Is it common practice for you to make pronouncements and take actions without hearing from the other side? Doesn't seem very democratic or open minded to me. And it is certainly against Wikipedia policy. This encyclopedia is supposed to be NPOV. WP:BLP does not prevent negative information if it is relevant and well-sourced. Your comments above do not show an interest in making the encyclopedia the best it can be. If that was your intention, you would have asked for better sources if you thought one or more of them was lacking. I have added a citation of Boston Herald, but I will address your comments one post at a time. RonCram (talk) 17:25, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Why oh why oh why doesn't some lazy ass admin get off their chair and block RonCram for five days? Has he made any productive edits in the past several months?!? He has made it abundantly clear that his only purpose on Wikipedia prior to midnight on Nov. 4th is to agitate in favor of various attacks on Obama, many of which have been discredited even by the frikkin' GOP leadership. I mean, holy crap, this is a guy who actually believes the conspiracy theory that Ayers ghost-wrote Dreams of My Father. Seriously! If that doesn't win you a tinfoil hat and a nice preventative block, I dunno what does... --Jaysweet (talk) 17:42, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
RonCram, please just give it up. These will not go into the article. Not today, not tomorrow, not on November 5th. On the specifics:
Now then... This thread has gotten messy, and covers too many topics, without any chance of going anywhere. I would like to close it again, purely for ease of managing the talk page. Would you be willing to let this thread close and start new threads on each topic individually? As is, no one is even going to read this monster by November 5th. --GoodDamon 18:19, 31 October 2008 (UTC) Agree with GoodDamon, and other editors that the laundry-list of proposed content is either poorly sourced or campaign-related. Support closure. Modocc (talk) 19:12, 31 October 2008 (UTC) Another source showing Project Vote, where Obama worked, is a sister organization of ACORNAs if that wasn't obvious from my previous source which lists it as such and shows they have the same address. This new source also says ACORN was given a donor list by the Barack Obama campaign although that may have to wait until we get an ACORN section or put it in a different article. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:38, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Banning editors and the "protection" of the Obama page.I have only been a silent observer up until now, but I would like to point out that most of the editors who have been "protecting" the Obama page and using wikipedia policy to do so are somehow absent from doing the same on the McCain and Palin pages. Go figure. If they really were interested in stopping vandalism and making pages less POV, then they should share their infinite wisdom and protect more pages than just Obama, otherwise it looks very political to stop such edits and ban editors who wish to add the information on the Obama page and not any other candidates. Any editor or admin who uses wikipedia policies to revert political ideas with citations, that they do not agree with, should be ashamed of themselves. That is not what wikipedia is here for. Remember that wikipedia is a community project and editors do not own this page or any other.--Jojhutton (talk) 01:36, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Oh, now I get it. He wasn't here to scold us, he was here to push his POV. GrszReview! 02:05, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Thank goodness we do have many sensible editors here, so closing the disruption. Modocc (talk) 02:46, 30 October 2008 (UTC) |
Lead image change
Yet again. I really don't care which one is used, but I see no discussion of the change here. That makes me skeptical about it, even fairly opposed. We've been through such attempted changes way too many times, with consensus for a different image never being reached. LotLE×talk 18:40, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Someone needs to change the lead picture to something more respectable. When logged in it shows his United States Congress picture, but when logged out, it shows him smoking a cigarette. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.252.254.7 (talk) 00:05, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
- strange. Did you try clearing the cache?--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 00:08, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
- Vandalism. Two trolls who added the image blocked, image deleted. You might need to purge your cache to get rid of the old image. --barneca (talk) 00:09, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
I say we change his picture to the one where he is puffing on a cigarette. BarackBlows (talk) 07:52, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Preparation of the election
Wouldn't it be useful to start to prepare a page in a specific area that could be put on line rapidly once he is elected ? Hektor (talk) 19:40, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
- No, because there's no guarantee he will be. Please do not use this talk page for campaigning against or for Barack Obama. This is his biography, and any presumption that he will be elected President is premature. --GoodDamon 20:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
- A) I am French, I live in France, so I have nothing at stake in this election. B) If you want that can be done for both (main) candidates. Except if you think a third party guy can be elected, I think there would be no harm in this. Hektor (talk) 20:12, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
- Therefore I reformulate my proposal : couldn't we create Barack Obama/President, and John McCain/President and we just put the winning page on line once the result is known ? That would allow an expedited update process and avoid multiple simultaneous small mods at the same moment. Hektor (talk) 20:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think it would be a good idea to create those articles in Wikipedia article space. However, if you want to start work on article(s) in your User space, and invite other editors to collaborate with you there, that would be fine. Might I suggest User:Hektor/President Barack Obama and User:Hektor/President John McCain? Regards, SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 20:31, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
- Therefore I reformulate my proposal : couldn't we create Barack Obama/President, and John McCain/President and we just put the winning page on line once the result is known ? That would allow an expedited update process and avoid multiple simultaneous small mods at the same moment. Hektor (talk) 20:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
- A) I am French, I live in France, so I have nothing at stake in this election. B) If you want that can be done for both (main) candidates. Except if you think a third party guy can be elected, I think there would be no harm in this. Hektor (talk) 20:12, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
- Reacting to news is a purpose of wikinews, not Wikipedia. If Obama is elected president, we have
84 years in which to update the articles. There's no rush. In the mean time, you might want to consider posting a note at Wikipedia:In the news section on the Main Page/Candidates if he is elected. -- Suntag ☼ 04:39, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- This is a very nice principle statement. Unfortunately it will not withstand the test of reality. As soon as the election is announced hundreds of edits in any direction will be made. I still think that it would be much preferable to make a single well prepared edit and then lock the article for a few days. Hektor (talk) 17:34, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
If Obama is elected
We should not describe him as president-elect, until after the Electoral College votes in mid-December. In the meantime presumptive president-elect would do. GoodDay (talk) 21:37, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
- Follow the terminology used by the mainstream media, such as the Associated Press and the New York Times. They will probably follow the practice of many decades past and call the person with the majority of presumptive electoral votes the "president elect," as soon as the a candidate appears to have the states with a majority of electoral vots in his column and the loser has conceded. See Eisenhower called President-elect by the New York Times November 8, 1952[35], Roosevelt called "president-elect" in November 1932[36], Hoover called "president -elect" November 10, 1928[37], Wilson called "president-elect" Nov. 19, 1912 [38], Taft called "president-elect" Nov 22, 1908 [39], Grover Cleveland called "president elect" November 20, 1892,[40] , Garfield called "president elect" Nov 24, 1880 [41] , Grant called the "president elect Nov. 17, 1868 [42] , Buchanan called by the term Nov. 6, 1856,[43] etc. Edison (talk) 03:51, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for doing the legwork, Edison - I was going to make the same point. We're getting ahead of ourselves, but I agree it's putting way too fine a point on it to insist on "presumptive" president-elect - common practice is to use "president-elect" once the victor is called. 2000 was an anomaly. Tvoz/talk 04:09, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
- Don't count your chickens before they hatch, remember the United States presidential election, 1948!!! Somehow I think history may be about to repeat itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.3.198 (talk) 02:51, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/28/Deweytruman12.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.3.198 (talk) 02:59, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
For the tinfoil hat crowd
The judge threw out your lawsuit re: Obama's place of birth ("ridiculous", "patently false"), so you can move on to another talking point.[44] ~ priyanath talk 16:17, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- While you're right on the facts, perhaps the mode of delivery is less than ideal. Nothing's accomplished by mockery. S.D.D.J.Jameson 16:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- My apologies. Even considering the plaintiff's background (lawsuits against Bush and Cheney for the murder of 2,800 people on 9/11), and the nonstop vandalism here, my delivery was unwarranted. ~ priyanath talk 16:34, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- I can understand the frustration. Dealing with conspiracy theories (and conspiracy theorists) can be maddening. S.D.D.J.Jameson 16:36, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- Normal modes of communication are lost on conspiracy theorists, or they would not be conspiracy theorists. We haven't found a good way to deal with them other than persistence, reverts, and if necessary, blocks. Once in a blue moon someone repetitively posing fringe material responds to the facts or to Wikipedia policies/guidelines. More likely they cry censorship and start making repetitive personal attacks on people. Who knows, taunting might work. Wikidemon (talk) 16:38, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- I've dealt with conspiracy theorists a lot, both online and off. Taunting never works. It just seems to offer them justificatiib for their belief that they are persecuted. S.D.D.J.Jameson 16:43, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- I was mostly joking about that one. Nothing direct seems to work though. One just ushers them on to ranting somewhere else.Wikidemon (talk) 18:55, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- I know what you mean. I've found -- at least online -- that the same people turn up believing the same fringe things across the various areas most deeply affected by conspiracy theorists. S.D.D.J.Jameson 18:58, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- I found the section header for this discussion to be small-minded and offensive. Tinfoil hats have been shown repeatedly to protect the wearer from all sorts of government monitoring technologies, not to mention dangerous gamma radiation from space. Wearing a tinfoil hat is a legitimate lifestyle choice, and anyone who suggests otherwise is obviously a tool of the NSA spreading anti-tinfoil propaganda in a transparent attempt to bolster government mind control efforts. Wikipedia has a responsibility to tell the world about the risks that people incur by forgoing tinfoil hats. It may not be verifiable, but IT IS THE TRUTH! --Jaysweet (talk) 17:42, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- Barack Obama wears a tinfoil hat. I have an email that proves it. Where's the discussion about this?--210.248.139.35 (talk) 05:59, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
- What's well known is that for the sine qua non safeguard of one's thoughts from government snoops one should wear a hat providing at the very least a waver-thin shield of lead. Justmeherenow ( ) 06:43, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
- Barack Obama wears a tinfoil hat. I have an email that proves it. Where's the discussion about this?--210.248.139.35 (talk) 05:59, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
- Normal modes of communication are lost on conspiracy theorists, or they would not be conspiracy theorists. We haven't found a good way to deal with them other than persistence, reverts, and if necessary, blocks. Once in a blue moon someone repetitively posing fringe material responds to the facts or to Wikipedia policies/guidelines. More likely they cry censorship and start making repetitive personal attacks on people. Who knows, taunting might work. Wikidemon (talk) 16:38, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- I can understand the frustration. Dealing with conspiracy theories (and conspiracy theorists) can be maddening. S.D.D.J.Jameson 16:36, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
- My apologies. Even considering the plaintiff's background (lawsuits against Bush and Cheney for the murder of 2,800 people on 9/11), and the nonstop vandalism here, my delivery was unwarranted. ~ priyanath talk 16:34, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
I am able to prove logically that Obama was born in Kenya.
I read an article on Worldnet Daily and here is the quote that caught my eye. "Berg told WND last week he does not have a copy of a Kenyan birth certificate for Obama that he alleges exists."
"In Kenya, WND was told by government authorities that all documents concerning Obama were under seal until after the U.S. presidential election on November 4."
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=79174
The Governemt of Kenya by admission of sealed records proves that Obama has legal documents that are held by the Government of Kenya. Now look at it this way.
If Obama was not born there, did not live there, does not claim citizenship in Kenya then Kenya would not have any records to seal, now would they.
By their comment that all documents are sealed by the Kenyan Government proves by their own admission that Obama's birth certificate is the only plausable document that could be sealed by the country.
Remember, Obama went to school in Indonesia, Hawaii, California and New York. Because of this he would have no school records in Kenya.
By his own admission Obama only visited Kenya. He never lived there so any records of home ownership, drivers license, voters list, etc. do not exist.
With all the above being true then the only answer is that the Kenyan Government admits they are in the possession of legal documents that are sealed therefore the only legal document that they could be in possession of is a birth certificate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cj1951 (talk • contribs) 04:15, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Or it could just be that he had citizenship in both Kenya and the United States until he was 21 because his father was a Kenyan citizen. When he was born, Kenya was a British colony and was governed under British citizenship laws which stated that Obama was a British citizen (due to his father being a British citizen) as well as an American (due to Obama being born in Hawaii) citizen. Therefore, Kenya would have documents relating to Obama's citizenship which lapsed when he turned 21. Your "logic" is easily picked apart with very basic research. Also, there is no room for "logic" arguments in a wikipedia article if they are undocumented. Its original research and doesn't belong here.
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/does_barack_obama_have_kenyan_citizenship.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.118.186.130 (talk) 16:42, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Colin Powell's endorsement for Barack Obama
Since it's a part of Barack's history could someone please add to the wiki article the Colin Powell endorsement for Barack Obama?--PaulLowrance (talk) 13:22, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- This is Barack Obama's biography. As such, individual endorsements are completely beyond the scope of the article. There are so many, in fact, that a separate article exists specifically for this purpose. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:19, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. Can we please add a link to List of Barack Obama presidential campaign endorsements, 2008 in the Wiki article?--PaulLowrance (talk) 14:29, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- Since the election is only one component of Obama's life, it seems that a direct link would probably be undue weight; however, the article does link to Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008, which then links to List of Barack Obama presidential campaign endorsements, 2008. Don't forget that this article is a gateway to a whole slew of child articles (per summary style) which (in many cases) have child articles themselves, as in this case. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:44, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- I strongly disagree that one single link places undue weight. I for one would have liked to have known of this List of Barack Obama presidential campaign endorsements, 2008 wiki page. Could you please reconsider placing one single link in this Wiki article?--PaulLowrance (talk) 14:51, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- This article is not about Obama's campaign, which means it does not make sense for it to link directly to Obama's campaign endorsements. It is enough that they share a common article (Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008) and a common category (Category:Barack Obama). In fact, this is precisely what categories are for, is it not? -- Scjessey (talk) 14:57, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- How can you say that when this article contains the history of Barack Obama? His presidential campaign is part of his history. IMO the endorsements should be directly in this wiki article. So to say the least there should be a link to the Barack endorsements. Can we please take a vote here? It is possible this blocked action is part of a biased opinion of Barack Obama. Thanks. --PaulLowrance (talk) 15:06, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- I've got to side with Scjessey, here. Anyone who wants to read details about the campaign can follow the link to the campaign article. Then, if they want specifics on the list of endorsements, they can follow a link from there to the endorsements. This is a fairly typical scenario in large families of interconnected articles such as the ones on Barack Obama. Read the guidelines for summary style for details on why that sort of organization ends up being used for complex, multi-layered topics. --GoodDamon 15:13, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- I think it's silly to not place one single link that is regarding his history. I've been a system admin to over a dozen websites and a site owner since 1997 and it is common practice to place all relevant links on the page. The idea that this link will over weight the page is illogical.--PaulLowrance (talk) 15:18, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- I understand why you'd want to include this material here - after all, it's good material, it's reliably sourced, and it's part of the campaign, which is part of his life. I appreciate that you feel that the material you want to add is important, otherwise you wouldn't be bringing it to the table. But we can't include everyone's contribution at the top level. This material can be covered in depth at the endorsements article, and depending on editor consensus as to relative importance with other events in the presidential campaign (see Wikipedia:Due weight), it could also be mentioned in the (campaign article. But unless we start hearing that Powell's endorsement has made an impact on Obama's life - rather than his campaign - it is unlikely to get a mention here. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 15:41, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- I can understand wanting to prioritize information, and hence the good reason for creating a separate endorsement page, but in this case we're talking about a single link, and one that is part of his history. Good web page design is one that includes good linking. The concept of making people read articles after articles just to get to a certain related link should be discouraged. Why not add an Internal Link section in this wiki article. I believe you acknowledged this is part of Barack's history, and hence a good reason to at least include such a link.--PaulLowrance (talk) 15:58, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- I understand why you'd want to include this material here - after all, it's good material, it's reliably sourced, and it's part of the campaign, which is part of his life. I appreciate that you feel that the material you want to add is important, otherwise you wouldn't be bringing it to the table. But we can't include everyone's contribution at the top level. This material can be covered in depth at the endorsements article, and depending on editor consensus as to relative importance with other events in the presidential campaign (see Wikipedia:Due weight), it could also be mentioned in the (campaign article. But unless we start hearing that Powell's endorsement has made an impact on Obama's life - rather than his campaign - it is unlikely to get a mention here. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 15:41, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- I think it's silly to not place one single link that is regarding his history. I've been a system admin to over a dozen websites and a site owner since 1997 and it is common practice to place all relevant links on the page. The idea that this link will over weight the page is illogical.--PaulLowrance (talk) 15:18, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- I've got to side with Scjessey, here. Anyone who wants to read details about the campaign can follow the link to the campaign article. Then, if they want specifics on the list of endorsements, they can follow a link from there to the endorsements. This is a fairly typical scenario in large families of interconnected articles such as the ones on Barack Obama. Read the guidelines for summary style for details on why that sort of organization ends up being used for complex, multi-layered topics. --GoodDamon 15:13, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- How can you say that when this article contains the history of Barack Obama? His presidential campaign is part of his history. IMO the endorsements should be directly in this wiki article. So to say the least there should be a link to the Barack endorsements. Can we please take a vote here? It is possible this blocked action is part of a biased opinion of Barack Obama. Thanks. --PaulLowrance (talk) 15:06, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- This article is not about Obama's campaign, which means it does not make sense for it to link directly to Obama's campaign endorsements. It is enough that they share a common article (Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008) and a common category (Category:Barack Obama). In fact, this is precisely what categories are for, is it not? -- Scjessey (talk) 14:57, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- I strongly disagree that one single link places undue weight. I for one would have liked to have known of this List of Barack Obama presidential campaign endorsements, 2008 wiki page. Could you please reconsider placing one single link in this Wiki article?--PaulLowrance (talk) 14:51, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- Since the election is only one component of Obama's life, it seems that a direct link would probably be undue weight; however, the article does link to Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008, which then links to List of Barack Obama presidential campaign endorsements, 2008. Don't forget that this article is a gateway to a whole slew of child articles (per summary style) which (in many cases) have child articles themselves, as in this case. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:44, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. Can we please add a link to List of Barack Obama presidential campaign endorsements, 2008 in the Wiki article?--PaulLowrance (talk) 14:29, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
(Resetting indent) Ahh, I think I see the issue. It isn't a good idea to treat Wikipedia like a regular website, due to the sheer number and inter-relational nature of article topics. Wikipedia's category system is designed as an answer to that problem. Look at the bottom of the main article page, and you'll find a box that says "Categories." In that box, there's a link to Category:Barack Obama. Every single article in that category is listed there, including the list of endorsements. Anyone who wants to see, at a glance, every article related directly to Barack Obama can find it there. --GoodDamon 16:17, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- Toward the bottom of the wiki article is the "Categories:", which is probably what you're referring to. The "Barack Obama" category is the seventh link. The previous 6 links are unrelated to Barack Obama, which are "Featured articles," "Future election candidates," "Spoken articles," "1961 births," "Living people." None of the categories are about Barack. How about moving the "Barack Obama" category link to the first category link? It should go without saying that the odds of someone finding the seventh "Barack Obama" category link and then sifting through that entire page to find his endorsement history page is slim and none. Since this is part of Barack's history I just think it's far more important and relevant. As it stands there's next to no chance of someone finding the endorsement history wiki page.--PaulLowrance (talk) 17:24, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, that's a good point, but I'm not sure how to reorganize the categories. My wiki-fu is strong, but not that strong. It would make sense if the first category was the one named after him. Does anyone know how that's done, or even if it's possible? --GoodDamon 17:37, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know. Is it perhaps a template? It's just a minor change. I'm certain someone knows how to do it.--PaulLowrance (talk) 17:53, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- I was able to make the change. :-) Modocc (talk) 02:22, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Very nice! How were you able to do it?--PaulLowrance (talk) 13:44, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- I was able to make the change. :-) Modocc (talk) 02:22, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know. Is it perhaps a template? It's just a minor change. I'm certain someone knows how to do it.--PaulLowrance (talk) 17:53, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, that's a good point, but I'm not sure how to reorganize the categories. My wiki-fu is strong, but not that strong. It would make sense if the first category was the one named after him. Does anyone know how that's done, or even if it's possible? --GoodDamon 17:37, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Per all the other experienced editors, I agree that a link to the Powell endorsement does not belong in this top level biography. An encyclopedia isn't a link farm. Less strongly (but still fairly strongly), I also feel that the general "endorsements" page also should not have a link on this main bio. The campaign article is, and should be, linked to from here; that article is the one that should logically mention the endorsements list. Conceivably, if the Powell endorsement is especially important (versus all the other endorsements), it might merit very brief mention directly in the campaign article (with details fleshed out in the endorsements article). Discuss that issue on the campaign article, definitely none of it should be on main bio. LotLE×talk 17:32, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Someone suggested to possibly adding a short statement in the wiki article to Colin Powell's endorsement, an important event in Barack's life. IMO that's far more important that the following text that is presently in the wiki, "Obama plays basketball, a sport he participated in as a member of his high school's varsity team.[164]" I seriously doubt that Obama plays basketball is more important than the Colin Powell's endorsement.--PaulLowrance (talk) 15:54, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Project Vote and ACORN
According to the Project Vote page, its association with ACORN started in 1994. Obama worked there in 1992. PhGustaf (talk) 15:37, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- No serious editors are asking for ACORN stuff in here, are they?LedRush (talk) 15:40, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, that makes sense, then. 300wackerdrive is a single-purpose account pushing to turn the ACORN article into an attack page and tie Barack Obama to it. He just came back from a block for edit-warring there. --GoodDamon 15:50, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
According to ACORN, they were involved in Barack Obama's 1992 registration drive and Obama has been teaching an annual leadership seminar for ACORN ever since.[45] 300wackerdrive (talk) 16:13, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- The link you've provided says march 2004, not 1992. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 17:27, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- IMO the ACORN link is too weak to be part of the Barack main wiki page. I can't even get a single small link to Barack's endorsement history wiki page. ACORN has been involved with a lot of politicians, but that's nothing new or bad. The United States worked closely with Saddam Heusein, but that does not make the United States evil. One can find weak links to every politician. Besides, so far there's no evidence that ACORN has done anything wrong.--PaulLowrance (talk) 17:46, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- What you're seeing is the result of summary style. There's only so much room in this article, and there are literally books-worth of information out there, so we have to be extremely frugal with space. --GoodDamon 17:52, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- ACORN is not a relevant enough part of Barack Obama's life to be included in a summary style bio. Specific election year talking points typically have a very short life cycle, and little or no lasting significance to the subject's life. ~ priyanath talk 18:26, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- Note that 300wackerdrive has been blocked from editing for edit warring. Hopefully there will now be a short reduction in disruptive editing hereabouts. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 18:31, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- ACORN is not a relevant enough part of Barack Obama's life to be included in a summary style bio. Specific election year talking points typically have a very short life cycle, and little or no lasting significance to the subject's life. ~ priyanath talk 18:26, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Social Security Blurp
I added a small detail of Senator Obama's proposed social security plan. It wasn't covered in the article, and obviously Social Security is a notable point to include into his political position subsection. Let me know what you think. DigitalNinja 20:05, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- It is, but frankly your edit looked like a bit of coat-racking, and you sourced it to an editorial, which is a no-no for statements of fact. --GoodDamon 20:14, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- I changed the source and used Money News instead, and it was reverted again. How is this coatrack or undue weight? Some people want it to be a Welfare like service, while some want private accounts. There's no way everyone will agree, so who cares? DigitalNinja 20:25, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- NewsMax isn't a reliable source. Find a real news source that characterizes Obama's Social Security position as "wealth redistribution." Better yet, find several to establish weight. And please, no more tabloids. --GoodDamon 20:28, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) It's still just presenting an opinion, in this case from a Republican talking point man, former White House economic advisor Larry Lindsey. And any piece presenting that 'view' will just be an opinion piece. It also violates WP:UNDUE for a bio about the life of Barack Obama. ~ priyanath talk 20:30, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- NewsMax isn't a reliable source. Find a real news source that characterizes Obama's Social Security position as "wealth redistribution." Better yet, find several to establish weight. And please, no more tabloids. --GoodDamon 20:28, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- I changed the source and used Money News instead, and it was reverted again. How is this coatrack or undue weight? Some people want it to be a Welfare like service, while some want private accounts. There's no way everyone will agree, so who cares? DigitalNinja 20:25, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
(reset indent) By what logic would you classify a politicians position on Social Security as weighty? That doesn't really make a lot of sense. Also, Gooddamon, it's MoneyNews, which is a very reliable source when it concerns anything economy/money. DigitalNinja 20:45, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- Also, how is someone supposed to improve the article when an edit is made, criticism is brought, the edit is made to reflect the criticism, so the edit is modified some more, and finally when all criticism is met someone simply says "this is the wrong place". Do you guys know my wife by any chance? DigitalNinja 20:48, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- By what logic would you classify a politicians position on Social Security as weighty? When it's entirely opinion and not the politician's position, for one. Your edit is at best disingenuous and at worst dishonest. Moneynews isn't 'suggesting' anything. Republican talking point man Lindsay is the one with the opinion (again, not news). Since when are republican talking points, stated by said republicans, relevant for a bio on Obama? ~ priyanath talk 20:51, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- Regarding your issue with adding this here - it's called 'consensus'. Wives also have consensus, at all times, so that's just coincidence :-). ~ priyanath talk 20:54, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- lol, nice "wives have consensus at all times" rebuttal. That's the truth! Anyways, here are some more sources supporting my addition to the article. I would like it do be a fair summary, because I really think his position on Social Security should have a small mention (thats a "key" issue, just like Iraq and the economy). Anyways, do what you will...honey :)
- http://www.connpost.com/breakingnews/ci_10756391
- http://newsblaze.com/story/20081025080827zzzz.nb/topstory.html
- http://basseq.newsvine.com/_news/2008/10/24/2036730-obama-wants-social-security-to-be-a-welfare-plan?commentId=3697431
- http://www.aei.org/publications/filter.economic,pubID.28751/pub_detail.asp
- http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obamas_welfare.html
DigitalNinja 20:58, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- I don't have any objections in principle, provided it's well sourced that these are common opinions about his social security proposals, and also that the sources establish that this is an important issue for him and the voters to meet due weight (I have not actually reviewed them for that, but it seems plausible). There is room in the article for summarizing a handful of key issues and positions, although I agree that the main place for this is in a child article. I would think it goes in "political positions of", not the campaign article. Wikidemon (talk) 21:10, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- Right now, the "Political positions" section of this article is a factual recounting of Obama's positions - not partisan analysis of those positions. If his position on social security can be added to the article—not analysis of, not Lindsay's opinion on social security, or any other politico, left or right—then it might work. ~ priyanath talk 21:16, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
Missing: Barack baptized at Trinity United Church of Christ
Hi,
It was ~ a month ago the Barack Obama wiki article mentioned that Barack Obama was baptized at the Trinity United Church of Christ in 1988. What happened to the text? I can't even find it in the history. I know it's possible to delete history, but without a trace? Was it an admin or inside hack job, a possible attack on Barack's campaign? Anyhow, could someone please reinsert it? I have found that a good percentage of people falsely believe Barack is a muslim, so IMO this information is important.--PaulLowrance (talk) 12:50, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- It was probably deleted by Jeremiah Wright. I've heard he sometimes spews racial, radical, anti-American sediment while editing Wikipedia. But yes, I do think it's important to mention that Jeremiah Wright baptized Obama. 68.143.88.2 (talk) 13:06, 28 October 2008 (UTC) (forgot to sign in) DigitalNinja 14:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Frankly, it shouldn't matter where (or even whether) Obama was baptized, given that we are supposed to be a secular nation. That being said, I am puzzled as to why the information is not in the article. If you can locate a reliable source, I see no reason why it cannot be added to the last paragraph of the "Family and personal life" section. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:10, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- It was this very wiki article that I learned of Barack being baptized in 1988, but it appears to have been deleted even from the history. If we find the sources then is anyone going to add it?--PaulLowrance (talk) 13:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Frankly, it shouldn't matter where (or even whether) Obama was baptized, given that we are supposed to be a secular nation. That being said, I am puzzled as to why the information is not in the article. If you can locate a reliable source, I see no reason why it cannot be added to the last paragraph of the "Family and personal life" section. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:10, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- I found a quote that used to be in this wiki article, but was deleted, interestingly enough. It is not the 1988 reference that I saw last month, but at least it makes reference to his 1988 baptism. Quote, >>>Obama writes: "It was because of these newfound understandings—that religious commitment did not require me to suspend critical thinking, disengage from the battle for economic and social justice, or otherwise retreat from the world that I knew and loved—that I was finally able to walk down the aisle of Trinity United Church of Christ one day and be baptized."[134]<<< Again, this was already in this wiki article in under "Personal life." I have no idea when this was deleted. Can we please reinsert it? Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Barack_Obama&oldid=181289394 --PaulLowrance (talk) 13:45, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- The above quote was added in November 2006 and deleted in March 2008. I agree that it should be reinserted.--PaulLowrance (talk) 14:00, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- I seriously doubt the person who is doing to baptizing is what counts according to the Christian belief. When you say, "I've heard he [Jeremiah Wright] sometimes spews racial, radical, anti-American sediment" you are probably referring to Jeremiah Wright's anger toward American war aggressions and racism-- reference: Jeremiah Wright controversy. There are a lot of good Americans who have voiced similar opinions.--PaulLowrance (talk) 13:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- I can't recall any other Reverend of "Christian belief" that says things like; "US of KKK-A", "The government invented the HIV virus to destroy black people", and "God Damn America". I'm Christian, and that doesn't sound like my pastor. But hey, like I said, I think it's important to illustrate that Obama was baptized by him. 68.143.88.2 (talk) 13:53, 28 October 2008 (UTC) (forgot to sign in DigitalNinja 14:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC))
- First of all I am not defending the reverends words of anger. I am saying that such words are not uncommon from reverends, pastors, or whatever title you wish to give them. Anyhow, please show reliable references regarding the "US of KKK-A." As far as the the other quotes, sure you can. The famous John Hagee, a well thought of Christian (not by me) said things such as God sent Hurricane Katrina. Surely you recall John Hagee. He's the pastor that John McCain was associated with. Other famous Christians with similar statements include Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. I'd much rather be associated with a reverend that thought the US government created HIV than a pastor who thought God sent Hurricane Katrina to kill human beings. Anyways, this discussion is getting outside the topic. Lets please not enter some heated debate.--PaulLowrance (talk) 14:24, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- No problem. I apologize if I sounded biased. I agree that the reverend has in the past taken such issues way to far. According to Wiki page, "The Jeremiah Wright controversy gained national attention in March 2008 when ABC News, after reviewing dozens of Jeremiah Wright's sermons,[1]" Barack Obama has voiced his outrage of the reverends words-- Obama's response.--PaulLowrance (talk) 14:51, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Also, when you say "I seriously doubt the person who is doing the baptizing is what counts", are you say that when John the Baptist baptized Jesus Christ, that it wasn't really notable that John did it. Instead, it was simply only notable because he did? I think I understand now. 68.143.88.2 (talk) 13:56, 28 October 2008 (UTC) (forgot to sign in DigitalNinja 14:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC))
- No, I am saying that according to the belief that it's not the person doing the baptizing that makes the difference.--PaulLowrance (talk) 14:24, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
And getting back on topic... The reason editors removed the text isn't any sort of conspiracy to keep it out. It simply lacked a reference. Rather than leave a [citation needed] tag in the middle of a high-quality featured article, the text was removed. I'm sure if someone can find a good reference for it, the text can return. No great mystery here, folks. --GoodDamon 15:00, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- I think sourcing is really the secondary issue. The main issue is why should the quote be included in the article? What new information does it bring to the reader? At this point, with the article length being what it is and most sections already budded off into daughter articles (per summary style) every new paragraph added must have a strong argument for inclusion. Simply saying "I like it" or "it used to be there" isn't good enough. So far I haven't seen an argument for inclusion on the merits of the quote itself. --Loonymonkey (talk) 15:23, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- It does have a reference. It was part of the wiki for nearly two years. You need a consensus to remove such a well established famous Obama quote. This is an important quote, far more so than Obama playing basketball.--PaulLowrance (talk) 15:28, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Again, "it used to be there" is not an argument for inclusion. Why does the quote need to go in the article? Further, you're incorrect about consensus. The burden for consensus falls on the editor seeking to add material to an article. You have to gain consensus in order to add it (and please, please, do not make the argument circular by saying "I'm not adding anything because it used to be there.") Argue for inclusion on its own merits. --Loonymonkey (talk) 15:34, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Personally, now that I've seen the text, I'm of the opinion that removing it was the correct decision. It's complete fluff, and does nothing for the article but add verbiage. If anywhere, it belongs in a sub-article, but it's definitely not substantive enough for the main article. Perhaps without the quote, it wouldn't seem so fluffy, but with it it's just beyond the pale. --GoodDamon 15:41, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- No it is not fluff. It's more important than the mention of playing basketball.--PaulLowrance (talk) 15:44, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Personally, now that I've seen the text, I'm of the opinion that removing it was the correct decision. It's complete fluff, and does nothing for the article but add verbiage. If anywhere, it belongs in a sub-article, but it's definitely not substantive enough for the main article. Perhaps without the quote, it wouldn't seem so fluffy, but with it it's just beyond the pale. --GoodDamon 15:41, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Again, "it used to be there" is not an argument for inclusion. Why does the quote need to go in the article? Further, you're incorrect about consensus. The burden for consensus falls on the editor seeking to add material to an article. You have to gain consensus in order to add it (and please, please, do not make the argument circular by saying "I'm not adding anything because it used to be there.") Argue for inclusion on its own merits. --Loonymonkey (talk) 15:34, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Probably the same reason why any quote becomes notable? 1) It is an important part of Barack's history. 2) It educates people that Barak is not a muslim, but in fact a Christian, so much so that he takes his 1988 baptism seriously. 3) Too many people are spreading false information that Barack is a muslim.--PaulLowrance (talk) 15:44, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Furthermore, the aforementioned quote is the only mention of Barack's baptism.--PaulLowrance (talk) 15:48, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- The article already mentions Barack's membership to a Christian church. That is enough to convey that he isn't a Muslim (besides, anyone with any type of objective mind would see the truth in that smear). So far, the information you're providing isn't particularly substantive nor worthy by nature, as the key fact I see you've presented is to weigh and overpower that he's a christian for political reasons. 68.143.88.2 (talk) 16:03, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Now, I admit I would love the opportunity to link Obama with Reverend Wright further than what it already is, however that doesn't mean at the expense of article prose. 68.143.88.2 (talk) 16:06, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- That's a lot better than John McCain's link to the famous John Hagee, a well thought of Christian (not by me) who said God sent Hurricane Katrina.--PaulLowrance (talk) 16:13, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Now, I admit I would love the opportunity to link Obama with Reverend Wright further than what it already is, however that doesn't mean at the expense of article prose. 68.143.88.2 (talk) 16:06, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Again, the wiki article did not mention his baptism. IMO that's far more important that the following text that is presently in the wiki, "Obama plays basketball, a sport he participated in as a member of his high school's varsity team.[164]"--PaulLowrance (talk) 16:13, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
How about the following short text instead, "Barack Obama was baptized in the Trinity United Church of Christ in 1988." followed by the reference number. --PaulLowrance (talk) 16:31, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- There was relatively recently a sentence very similar to this added to the article. I removed it after the editor who added it was unable to find a reference after a reasonable time, and after discussion of it on the talk page (now archived). The long quote is definitely too many words, but a simple sentence like PaulLowrance suggests seems perfectly relevant if someone locates an actual citation.
- A partial citation was located in the recent discussion, but it only stated when Obama was baptized, not where. At the time the editor was arguing that it was likely the baptism occurred at Trinity. I agree it seems likely, but we cannot speculate here. I'm happy with the sentence either with the location removed, or with the location mentioned if citation is found. LotLE×talk 17:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Here is this same discussion from two weeks ago: Talk:Barack Obama/Archive_38#Baptism.
Quote reference --> Obama (2006), pp. 202–208. Portions excerpted in: Obama, Barack (October 23 2006). "My Spiritual Journey". TIME. Retrieved 2007-09-30. {{cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(help) See also: Guess, J. Bennett (February 9 2007). "Barack Obama, Candidate for President, is 'UCC'". United Church News. Retrieved 2007-09-30. {{cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(help)
Consensus interpretation: We will not allow one single mention on the entire WikiPedia website that Barack Obama was baptized in 1988. Show me one place in this entire website that you'll allow such a quote to exist, including the reference.--PaulLowrance (talk) 17:58, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps rather than spending so many thousands of words ranting about conspiracies against WP:TRUTH and strange and irrelevant digressions about the meaning of John the Baptist to Jesus, you could just provide a CITATION for what would be a completely non-controversial short addition if cited. Neither of the sources you give above mention Obama's baptism (at least not according to Ctrl-F). I guess it's more fun to brag about your persecution than it is to spend a few minutes with citable sources. LotLE×talk 18:14, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- You didn't read the source. See page 6 of the source. It's there.--PaulLowrance (talk) 18:30, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- You guys all kill me; "Barack Obama was baptized in the Trinity United Church of Christ by Reverend Wright in 1988." [47], [48], [49]. DigitalNinja 19:08, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- I can't verify that material in any of those sources. Time says he was baptised in 1988, and the UCC may claim him as a member (that wasn't clear from a quick glance), but it doesn't mention baptism at all, and I don't see any verification that Rev. Wright performed the baptism. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 19:46, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- You guys all kill me; "Barack Obama was baptized in the Trinity United Church of Christ by Reverend Wright in 1988." [47], [48], [49]. DigitalNinja 19:08, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Still no answer as to where in wikipedia one can add that Barack Obama was baptized in 1988. Where? It was in the Barack Obama wiki for nearly two years. This is WikiPedia with rules, not "a group can take over the Obama page and do whatever they want." Why allow statements in the wiki that Barack plays basketball and refuse to allow one single mention in this entire wiki website that Barack was baptized in 1988? Can anyone answer?--PaulLowrance (talk) 20:33, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Paul, you need to submit this question to the Barack Obama Article Cable board of Directors (BOACBD). If you want, you can repost in a new section and I will make sure this matter is addressed in due time. Thanks for using Obama Talk Page Services.
P.S. Please see new section below, and make your edit. DigitalNinja 20:45, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Note that the date and location of Obama's baptism is in the article. Look at the article, Control-F, search for Trinity. Please don't start new sections for existing topics. --guyzero | talk 20:58, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Various proposals
Unreliable Source that Obama spoke out against the war (reference 116 looks to Barack's own website)
I quote NPR, "Even in this era of YouTube and camera phones, a recording of Obama's speech is all but impossible to find. The Obama campaign has gone so far as to re-create portions of the speech for a television ad, with the candidate re-reading the text, with audience sound effects." And so if there is no record of the speech, then how is a transcript from the candidates own website a good source? This does not make any sense to me. TheGoodLocust (talk) 19:43, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Here is a vanity recreation, but the first bit is enough to get the point. GrszReview! 19:45, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- How does this video not help prove my case? Barack "recreated" part of the speech and included audience effects. TheGoodLocust (talk) 19:49, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah i caught it, I thought it was a reference to Obama's "spread the wealth" comments. But anway, it wasn't my intention to fight anyone. I'm just curious how we can include something that is so poorly sourced. TheGoodLocust (talk) 19:51, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- What does his speech have to do with his website? There is a perfectly good record of his website here: http://www.barackobama.com. If challenged, the website may not be a good source for a transcript of a speech. However, by republishing the speech the campaign endorses the contents, i.e. that Obama spoke out against the war. If he didn't do it at his speech he certainly does it on his website. As a primary source that is not as strong as a published account in a major independent reliable newspaper, which would be preferable. A cite to the campaign website can then be made as a supplemental, or courtesy link. I have a feeling all this commentary about reliable sources is a lost cause, though. There is zero chance for removing the statement that Obama is against the conduct of the war, although if you want to do some good you can propose a better source for it. Recreating this contentious section after it was archived, though, appears to be chasing a WP:POINT of some kind, though I can't tell and frankly don't care what point that is. Wikidemon (talk) 19:54, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- But the wikipedia article says he spoke out against the war - not that he "endorses" the message as you seem to be claiming on his website. It is far different to say that you strongly opposed something after the fact - especially when there was no record of him doing so at the time. I don't understand how there is "zero" chance of removing it - there is no evidence from the time that he gave this speech, and no recording of it anywhere. Facts are facts. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:08, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Some new information here. It looks like the Chicago Tribune article that covered the event, of pretty decent length, didn't include any mention of Barack Obama at all - or any state senator for that matter. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:01, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- You can register to look at it or read it on numerous other websites that have reprinted it like this one. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:12, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- If it is a simple fact then it should be easy to find a source from the time period showing that he did make such a speech - not some after-the-fact account after years of Obama claiming he made such a speech on the stump. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:18, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- It's a little strange. I just wish it wasn't so fringy feeling. DigitalNinja 20:06, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- I does kind of feel that way, but the facts are the facts - no record of his speech, and even the local paper that covered it didn't mention Obama speaking at the time. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:14, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- (ec X2) (addressing tgl) So what? The (claimed) absence of coverage in one account means it didn't happen? Please reread the article. Footnote 115 contains four citations to stand for the proposition that Obama attended the rally. If you need more, use google. For what it's worth, here is a sixth source.[50] to stand for the proposition that Obama spoke out against the war at the Chicago rally.Wikidemon Enough of these conspiracy theories about Obama.(talk) 20:16, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- It's a little strange. I just wish it wasn't so fringy feeling. DigitalNinja 20:06, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Are any of those sources from the time period or are they after years of Obama making the claim on his website and at stump speeches?TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:20, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- I already looked at your source - it was written 6 years after the alleged speech and after several years of Obama making the claim. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:29, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Can I make this any simpler? Tree. Woof. Woof no good. Bad dog. To answer your question "are any of those sources from the time period" the answer is "yes, some of those sources are from the time period". Go back to the article, look for footnote 115 at the bottom of the page, and click on the blue hyperlinks there. You should figure these things out for yourself before you waste other editors' time with yet another conspiracy theory that "the facts" about Obama are not as they seem. Wikidemon (talk) 20:33, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- I already looked at your source - it was written 6 years after the alleged speech and after several years of Obama making the claim. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:29, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) First off, please try to be respectful. Second, the source you mention is broken, but it refers to the story I linked above - and it contains absolutely no mention of Barack Obama. Again, I repeat, is there any source that mentions Barack Obama's speech from the time period? TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:39, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Time period is irrelevant - your theory that Obama could have made up a speech he never gave and hoodwinked the press in the intervening time into believing it is too far over the line of weirdness and fringiness to be worth considering. Most or all of the links in footnotes 115 and 116 are not broken, and some are from the time. They describe the speech Obama gave. The new link works for me, and it apparently works for you - you deduced when it was published. I respect everyone's chance to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia; I do not respect repeatedly wasting people's time with fringe claims, inaccurate claims about what sources are in the article, and spurious interpretations of what those sources say. Wikidemon (talk) 21:25, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Actually time is relevant - otherwise wikipedia opens itself up to revisionist history. I have no doubt that he made a speech, but I do have questions about the claimed content since most of the claims have occured years later and come directly from his campaign website and stump speeches. Oh, and none of my claims have been inaccurate or wasteful - in fact, this entire discussion has improved the article. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:30, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- If you want to propose a new rule that newspaper accounts of past events are unreliable, take that to WP:RS, not here. Please heed my caution and others to be more careful, and not waste people's time. 95% of your contributions today have been pointless, wrong, or both. Don't keep blustering through this.Wikidemon (talk) 21:43, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Actually time is relevant - otherwise wikipedia opens itself up to revisionist history. I have no doubt that he made a speech, but I do have questions about the claimed content since most of the claims have occured years later and come directly from his campaign website and stump speeches. Oh, and none of my claims have been inaccurate or wasteful - in fact, this entire discussion has improved the article. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:30, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Please try to remain civil and don't attack me with straw mans. And, for that matter, quit deleting topics every time I try to have a discussion. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:55, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
← Oh for crying out loud. The sheer laziness of the people who desperately try to find justification for their extremely biased view is unbelievable. I paid $2.95 to get this contemporaneous article from the October 3, 2002 Chicago Daily Herald:
Date: October 3, 2002
Page: 8
Section: News
300 attend rally against Iraq war:
The Rev. Jesse Jackson called on the Bush administration Wednesday to "lead the world, not rule it" at a downtown rally protesting plans for war against Iraq. State Sen. Barak Obama, a Chicago Democrat; the Rev. Paul Rutgers, chairman of the Council of Religious Leaders of Metropolitan Chicago; and former state Sen. Jesus Garcia of Chicago, among others, joined Jackson in urging the federal government to avoid a military strike against Iraq. "While we're looking at Saddam Hussein, we're taking attention away from our economic problems," Jackson said, pointing to the recent stock market plunge and the $2 billion national deficit. Obama, along with several of the speakers, acknowledged the necessity of war in some cases, but only as a last resort. "I don't oppose all war; I oppose dumb war," Obama said. He also said a war in Iraq based on passion and politics would provoke the worst impulses of the Arab world. Police estimated 300 people attended the event.
- Greg Bryant and Jane B. Vaughn, Medill News Service
© Copyright Daily Herald, Paddock Publications, Inc.
You can do it yourself: Go to the Daily Herald archives and enter "obama" as your search term and choose the date range October 2, 2002, to October 3, 2002. You'll get an abbreviated search result indicating Obama's presence and support but you too can pay $2.95 to confirm the whole article. Will you stop now or are you now going to say it was talking about someone else because it misspelled his first name? Tvoz/talk 20:42, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Why not use the first citation in this thread? It even explains why there isn't much coverage of the speech.
“ | ... back then, Barack Obama was a little-known state senator with an eye on a U.S. Senate seat.
Now, at nearly every campaign rally in his run for the presidency, Obama cites the speech he delivered on that day, in which he came out strongly against the Bush administration on Iraq. Obama told the anti-war rally that day, "I don't oppose all wars. I know that in this crowd today, there is no shortage of patriots, or of patriotism. What I am opposed to is a dumb war." The speech, delivered five-and-a-half years ago, allows Obama, now the junior senator from Illinois, to say something that his rival for the Democratic nomination, New York Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-NY), cannot: that he never supported the war. At the time of the speech, the U.S. Senate had not yet given President Bush authorization to use military force to topple Saddam Hussein. |
” |
- Seems good enough to me. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 20:47, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah, let's use the first source. Should we use Tvoz's source to in order to show the size of the crowd or would that be too POV? TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:51, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- The size of the crowd is not the issue, the speech and it's timing is. There's more:
Obama said the U.S. should focus on Afghanistan and on capturing Osama bin Laden. He spoke of "weekend warriors in the Bush administration with an ideological agenda." He called Saddam Hussein a butcher, but also stressed that the Iraqi dictator posed no imminent or direct threat to the United States. On that day, Obama also predicted a United States' occupation of Iraq of undetermined cost, length and consequences.
Actually the size is an issue, the wikipedia article currently says it was a "high profile" rally - which seems POV to me. Also, what is your source for those claims about Obama's speech? We don't have many sources from the time indicating what he really said. TheGoodLocust (talk) 20:59, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Um, the source is the NPR link you provided at the beginning of this thread. ~ priyanath talk 21:01, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Ah I thought you had a source, from the time, which quoted him as saying that - not an article written 6 years later. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:04, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Why did you take out that it had a low turnout?
The source says this, "Despite the small turnout, the rally marked the first high-profile public disapproval in Chicago of the Bush administration's war against terrorism."
Keeping in that it was "high profile," but leaving out that it had a small turnout gives a very misleading impression of the rally and it is very POV. We should either remove both, or put both in - not mix and match the adjectives we like. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:36, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
That's an excellent point, and I agree that we need to keep the integrity of the quote/source. DigitalNinja 21:40, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- I reverted Thegoodlocust's addition of "but low turnout" to the description of the anti-war rally because the number attending the rally ranges from 1,000 to 10,000 depending on the source (Chi Trib says 1,000, Sun-Times says "Crowd estimates from police and organizers ranged from 5,000 to 10,000"). So calling it "low turnout" is entirely subjective and POV. It was very high profile, since it was covered by every major newspaper in Chicago and even beyond, according to reliable sources. ~ priyanath talk 21:42, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- You are confusing the two anti-war rallies - the first one ranged from 300-1000, and was described in the article as having a low turnout - keep in mind that this is Chicago we are talking about. Also, the low estimate of 300 people was given by the police - organizers tend to overinflate their numbers. TheGoodLocust (talk) 21:51, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Then "high profile" needs to be removed too - if you just say it was a "high profile rally" then it sounds like it was a big gathering - not a small group of people like it really was. TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:19, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose addition of low turnout claim as irrelevant and POV. I mildly oppose removing the "high profile" because that phrase is relevant and gives necessary context, and the statement "first" would likely be inaccurate without it. A less weaselly sounding adjective could be used if it can be kept concise, e.g. "well-covered" or something like that. The alternative is to say "a rally" without an adjective, but that suffers from a lack of context. Why would we describe a particular speech Obama gave at a rally in his BIO, when politicians give speeches all the time? The reason this is notable is that Obama was one of the very first moliticians to come out in a prominent way against the Iraq war.Wikidemon (talk) 22:26, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Actually it would be something like an "anti-war rally" which gives the context just fine. Also, it wasn't very notable at the time, and only became notable after Obama began running for higher office- lots of low-level politicians opposed the war. We probably have close to ten thousand state senators in this country. TheGoodLocust (talk) 22:31, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Agree with Wikidemon above -- this speech, and Obama's stance on the Iraq War in general have been mentioned many, many times by reliable sources, thus the "high-profile"ness of this speech and the contents. I suspect the words high profile came directly out of one of the sources. Anyway, I'm for looking for better adjectives by way of compromise; "well-covered" might work. --guyzero | talk 22:44, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- "High profile" is a direct quote from the NPR source - we could put it in quotes but that would be awkward. NPR was being neutral. In the article here it might sound like opinion, although paraphrasing to make it sound less so takes it farther from the source.Wikidemon (talk) 22:46, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- No NPR did not categorize it as "high profile" - the old source from when it first happened said it had a low turnout but was also "high profile." Just to be clear I SUPPORT either including both descriptions from the same sentence of the source OR removing both descriptors all together - I just want it to be consistent. TheGoodLocust (talk) 23:11, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- Oh and to "priyanath" - if there was "probably" a lot of tv and "heavy print" coverage, then how come we've only been able to find a few articles of the event at the time? And half don't even mention Barack Obama - plus there is no video of his speech. I think we can do better than "probably." TheGoodLocust (talk) 23:14, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- I know I cannot act as a source, but I was at that rally. He did make the comments above (from what I can remember, it was 6 years ago). It was the first time I came in contact with Mr. Obama. I would state it as "high profile" because of who was there speaking. I think "low turnout" is in the eye of the beholder - what counts as low-turnout? Only a few hundred? Only a few thousand? From what I remember, there were a few thousand (probably about 3,000-5,000) people at the rally. It didn't feel all that big, and paled in comparison to the size of subsequent rallies and marches that have been held in Chicago (anti-war, immigration, etc.). Use this information for what it's worth. --Sasouthcott (talk) 06:16, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
More on the baptism
First off, you guys are no fun at all. Joking aside, it's perfectly acceptable to note that he was baptized given the fact that we've established:
- He was in fact baptized
- The baptism was preformed in 1988
- The baptism was held at his church
DigitalNinja 19:59, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Pointing out vandalsim
Please note: "Editing other users' comments to substantially change their meaning (e.g. turning someone's vote around), except when removing a personal attack (which is somewhat controversial in and of itself). Signifying that a comment is unsigned is an exception. Please also note that correcting other users' typos is discouraged, per WP:VANDAL.
Can we all refrain from editing other peoples edits. Because of this, I look like an idiot a few paragraphs above by what seems like I had a nice conversation with Obama while enjoying a cup of coffee or something. DigitalNinja 20:04, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
- No, reverting uconstructive / disruptive edits is necessary maintenance work for the talk page, without which things would quickly grind to a halt.
Please do not accuse other editors of vandalism.If your comment gets caught up in the archiving, you're free to move, delete, or update it. Wikidemon (talk) 20:20, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
It's official! So, let's get to work updating all applicable WP articles
LA Times headline re now foregone conclusion → "New Mexico newspaper headline: Obama Wins!" Justmeherenow ( ) 01:03, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
- Nice "joke". Is there anything that would contribute to this page?--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 01:21, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
- I guess that's what you gotta do when you only print two editions a month. GrszReview! 01:24, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
- Now that's a good one :) . Cheers, --The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 03:17, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Obama "magna cum laude"?
I was under the impression that Harvard Law School does not rank their students, and hasn't since the 1970s. How did Obama graduate magna cum laude? Also, where is the original source for this?
- Click on the footnote links next to the words magna cum laude to be taken to the sources (The Guardian and Encyclopedia Britannica). Quick google search shows that multiple additional reliable sources document his graduating magna cum laude. I removed your edit-request template as you did not specify a specific edit to be made, as per the instructions on the template. --guyzero | talk 03:45, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Mention of foreign trips in lead
The previous topic was closed due to the involvement of IPs with bad reps; per Wikidemon's suggestion, I'll post my rationale for the change here.
The lead of an article is meant to summarize its contents. Currently, a sentence in the lead lists countries which Obama has visited during his time in the Senate, representing only one sentence in the larger article. Given that John McCain has made more international trips than Obama, and yet no mention of these is given in the lead of his article, plus the aforementioned conflict with summary style, I would suggest that the mention of foreign trips be removed or replaced with a sentence mentioning Obama's international travel without providing a list of countries. »S0CO(talk|contribs) 04:24, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe some changes can be done but not because "other stuff exists". You could argue the opposite at john McCain's page to include more details because "stuff exists here". Clear enough?--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 04:32, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
- I hate to brake it to you but this guideline doesn't apply here since (here) it is not about an entire article and not even a sub. If applied in spite of my first argument against it, it would have the same merit to include parts in question to other articles. So now the question is, which way to go. Since every article has its unique merits and reasons there always will be differences compared to other existing "stuff". There is just no default in that matter. This guideline speaks for and against inclusion and therefore is a wash. Obeying this policy does not lead to a binding conclusion and one rule alone rarely solves a problem. As in most cases it is a healthy mix of several rules/guidelines and policies which can (and usually do) lead to resolve complex issues.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 05:34, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
- (yes, a vandalistic IP who is now blocked for 8 days) I support keeping the wording as-is. The twelve words in question, "and made official trips to Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and Africa", (later expanded to thirteen when it became a separate sentence, with "and" replaced by "He also") were added on June 10, 2007.[51] That was a summary of a 300+ word, three paragraph section "Official travel", one of two covering Obama's entire senate career. That is slightly less than the ratio of the entire lead (280 words) to the entire article (4,700 words) at the time. It was all well sourced. The article made the point that Obama's foreign relations subcommittee work, and the foreign travel involved in that, was important to both his career and his life. So it is well within reason for editors to decide travel is worth mentioning in the lead. The section does not seem to have been seriously challenged for sixteen months until now so it is safe to say there was a stable consensus on that part of the lead. By early 2008 the senate career section had been reorganized by the two sessions of congress rather than by subject,[52] and the travel information pared down to one long paragraph. Around May 2008 it was reorganized again[53] to divide the material into "legislation" and "committees." The travel section remained at one long paragraph. There was a general campaign to shorten the article over the summer and we managed to trim the article down from 6,300 words / 137,000 bytes[54] to 5,000 words / 117,000 bytes.[55] However, the travel section got trimmed without discussion as a separate matter[56] by a disruptive anti-Obama editor, now topic banned.[57] He made a lot of changes in short order that were more or less accepted by the community, after some reversions and further edits (see Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 33#Wholesale changes to Featured Article without prior discussion). There was no specific discussion at the time of trimming the travel section, and perhaps it got lost in the shuffle. Looking back, perhaps it got trimmed too far. However, there is an inherent problem with listing travel destinations that is similar to listing legislation, namely what to include without it becoming a laundry list. It is clearly an important issue, but it is hard to justify why one trip gets mentioned when another does not. At any rate, there is no weight problem here. We could probably find thousands to tens of thousands of articles about Obama's trips overseas as a senator, far too many to count. It is up to the editors here to decide how important that is to telling Obama's life story. I would say the 50 words now in the main article and 13 words in the lead is about right in proportion to the overall trajectory of things. Wikidemon (talk) 06:48, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
- Nicely said, well explained and laid out. It's quite complete and basically nothing of importance to add on.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 07:08, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
religion?
As of reading it at 19:50, GMT the page lists Obama as a follower of Islam? the article then goes into detail about his Christian beliefs, baptism and personal convictions on the subject of Christianity, and the semi-smear campaigns lodged against him to portray him as a Muslim. This seems, at best, contradictory?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.219.110.242 (talk • contribs)
- Must have been a vandal. It's been removed, thanks for the heads-up. ♪TempoDiValse♪ 19:54, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
Protecting political articles subject to OMFGINTHENEWS syndrome
Would the idea of creating a Wikiprojects - Current Elections (worldwide) perhaps help? If we can build a small team of editors who improves/maintains articles of current political candidates and articles related as such, I think we can much more effectively manage increased trolling/vandalism in such articles. We already have a fairly diverse group on this articles talk page, and I'm sure more would be willing to join. Wikidemon and Gooddamon in particular seem fairy well versed in Wikipedia policy, Grsz is a good "watch dog", and I could help balance you guys out and keep things interesting :)
I don't know, just a thought. I'm just not a big fan of full protection, it's so iky feeling. DigitalNinja 20:48, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
- As a long time, high-count editor of this article I can tell you that in the last 2 years it has only very rarely been under full protection. It was after he received the nomination and some partisan anti-Obama editors descended here to edit and distort - without a real understanding of how neutrality, verifiability, reliability, civility, and other core principles work - that short-term full protection was needed. The vandals are kept under control - I've long advocated semi-protection for the political articles because I think it puts too much of a burden on editors to continually revert the nonsense and often downright evil things that trolls and vandals add, but I do not advocate full protection except in very extreme circumstances and only for a very short time. I personally doubt adding another level of bureaucracy will be any more effective in controlling vandals and trolling than we already are. In general the idea of "review boards" has never gotten much traction here, maybe because it goes against the basic spirit of the project - I'm not questioning your sincerity in making the suggestion, but don't see what tools such a group would have that would make a difference, but maybe I'm missing something. Tvoz/talk 21:51, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
- The point isn't to have additional "tools", but more in additional "people". Consider this; if we have a WikiProjects - Current Elections, and have 20-30 editors listed, we would ultimately have this article (and others) listed on more watch pages lessening the duty to the current group of editors. Additionally, we could gather a little broader range for building consensus. Without any accusations or ill intent implied, it's probably safe to say that most serious edits on this article favor one side of the political spectrum (and the same can be said for User:Ferrylodge over on McCains talk page). I just think it would be better for the community, and ultimately the project, if we could kill two birds with one stone: broaden the folks watching, editing, and protecting these current election pages, and opening up the partisan "isles" to allow broader ranges of consensus. I might be missing something as well, but I just thought I'd make the suggestion and see who might be interested. DigitalNinja 22:11, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
- There is a Wikipedia:WikiProject United States presidential elections. It's been quiet lately, but earlier in the election cycle it provided a vehicle to get rid of dedicated "Controversies" articles or sections for all the 2008 U.S. presidential candidates. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:49, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- Also, please be aware the Ferrylodge is not the only major editor on the McCain articles! Wasted Time R (talk) 01:50, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Wording change
[...bad joke...] Ok, that first sentence was really just for Gooddamon and Wikidemon. Everyone else, anyone up for suggestions on trimming the article? Right now, it's sitting at 300 sources and is substantially massive. Is there any room to make it a little cleaner? I was thinking about removing some of the less relevant campaign subjects, since that sub article is quite thorough in it's own right. I'm not talking about anything massive, just a little here and there. Just an idea :) DigitalNinja 00:20, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- Specifically, this sentence was a little weird I thought: "On August 28, Obama delivered a speech in front of 84,000 supporters in Denver and viewed by over 38 million on television. During the speech he accepted his party's nomination and presented details of his policy goals." The period in the middle seems strange. What about something like this:
"On August 28th, Obama delivered a speech among 84,000 supporters in Denver which was viewed by over 38 million worldwide. During the speech, he accepted his party's nomination and presented his policy goals."
Thoughts? DigitalNinja 00:24, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Many commentators mentioned Obama's international appeal as a defining factor for his public image
Although it is cited, is there a better way oof phrasing this? Per WP:Weasel.--Jojhutton (talk) 02:38, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- If it's a statement of people's opinions, I'm sure it falls under WP:Weasel. See Exceptions at the bottom, though I could be off. GrszReview! 02:41, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- I looked at the three exceptions of Weasel and it doesn't seem to fall under any one of them. Perhaps others see it another way, I am just mentioning it, because it looked funny just sitting out there they way it is written now.--Jojhutton (talk) 02:49, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- I believe he is referring to ignore all rules, but I may be mistaken. Basically, if rules stand in the way of making wikipedia better, you knock down the rules, not wikipedia :D. <--Look at that awesome summarization!WikiReverter How am I doing? 04:27, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- I looked at the three exceptions of Weasel and it doesn't seem to fall under any one of them. Perhaps others see it another way, I am just mentioning it, because it looked funny just sitting out there they way it is written now.--Jojhutton (talk) 02:49, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Protection
Hello everyone!
I have fully protected this page (along with the pages of the other candidates) until after the election because it is becoming impossible to handle the vandalism, edit warring, and pure drama that these pages are generating. As such, non-admin users will be unable to directly edit the page. Fear not, however, this is still a wiki and you have my firm promise that I and as many neutral admins as we can spare will be watching this page and the others to make requested edits. Simply start a new header and place {{editprotected}} along with an explanation of your edit. If your edit may be considered controversial, some time will be given to determine community consensus before it is made.
I am very sorry for the inconvenience this will cause but I believe the benefits outweigh the losses. Please feel free to direct any questions about this situation, my choice to protect, or protection in general to my talk page. Thanks, and have a wonderful weekend. ~ L'Aquatique[talk] 04:57, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- I concur with continuing the lockdown thru November 5. However, the huge tag is hideous. The small padlock symbol would work just as well. We have been through this before.Ferrylodge (talk) 07:30, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- Be real, the only reason you locked the article is because you don't want any negative information added about your canidate. BarackBlows (talk) 08:10, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- Family of Barack Obama is the article that should be protected, if any. It has seen much hate-filled vandalism during the last few days. --Evb-wiki (talk) 13:28, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- BarackBlows, you couldn't be more wrong. You might notice that I also protected all the other candidate pages. This was not politically motivated. ~ L'Aquatique[talk] 18:21, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- Family of Barack Obama is the article that should be protected, if any. It has seen much hate-filled vandalism during the last few days. --Evb-wiki (talk) 13:28, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Page vacation?
Anyone for a vacation from this page? Now that the article is locked, it is unlikely that any significant edit will be done until after the election. Therefore, for the most part discussion here is moot - we can return to add the election results, archive if the page is messy at that point, and take it from there. Perhaps just watch out for page vandals. Wikidemon (talk) 07:49, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- Wikidemon, do you have any opinion about the tag at the top of the article? The page can be locked up without such a huge and obnoxious tag. In fact, the John McCain article was locked up for a couple days without that huge tag (but the tag was inserted today). The tag at the top of the talk page is fine with me, and will let anyone who's confused understand what's happening.Ferrylodge (talk) 07:53, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- You mean the little move protect padlock on the upper right, no? Sure, that's a lot more pleasant looking. It depends on the message. Do the 100-150K people who read the article every day need to know it's edit protected or not? The bigger the tag, the more press Wikipedia will get. I'm wondering if "deal with vandalism" is the best way to say it - it sounds kind of undignified. How about "until after the election to maintain article stability"? I'm not offended either way though.
- Yes, the little move protect padlock on the upper right is what I prefer. Readers who visit the article now will simply go elsewhere, once they see such a huge tag that says the article's been vandalized. If the little padlock is used instead, then editors would be able to figure out what's going on from the tag at the top of the talk page.Ferrylodge (talk) 08:11, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- I've already cut back my attention on this (and related pages) significantly, although this is partly due to the total awesomeness that is winning the World Series. Like Ferrylodge, I am not a big fan of the big ol' template at the top of the four pages of the apocalypse; however, if the template wasn't there we would be inundated with claims of Wikipedia censorship by the tinfoil hat brigade. I would prefer the standard mini padlock approach (given that it is explained on the accompanying talk pages), but I can see the argument for the existing fugliness too. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:12, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- So basically, now that this article is perfect, according to some editors, the article gets locked so that those same editors no longer have to worry about it. This article, as it stands now, is candy coated, and its a shame that a pack of editors decide to gang up on anyone who trys to add cited information that is not only true, but useful. Unlock the article, it belongs to the community.--Jojhutton (talk) 22:57, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- What productive was being added? Please answer me that. Grsz11 →Review! 23:01, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- Feel free to propose whatever content changes you like. If they:
- Are not campaign talking points reeking of recentism
- Are not sourced to partisan blogs and editorials
- Establish weight in the context of Obama's life
- Are not already covered in a sub-article, since this article is in summary style
- Are not WP:BLP violations
- Are not fringe theories
- Are reflected in the overwhelming majority of reliable sources
- ...then I'm sure they can be included, with everyone's support. Yes, this means that you can't use this article in the presidential campaign, but that would be inappropriate use of Wikipedia articles, anyway. Incidentally, all of the above applies to the John McCain article, too. --GoodDamon 23:07, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- So basically, now that this article is perfect, according to some editors, the article gets locked so that those same editors no longer have to worry about it. This article, as it stands now, is candy coated, and its a shame that a pack of editors decide to gang up on anyone who trys to add cited information that is not only true, but useful. Unlock the article, it belongs to the community.--Jojhutton (talk) 22:57, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- I've already cut back my attention on this (and related pages) significantly, although this is partly due to the total awesomeness that is winning the World Series. Like Ferrylodge, I am not a big fan of the big ol' template at the top of the four pages of the apocalypse; however, if the template wasn't there we would be inundated with claims of Wikipedia censorship by the tinfoil hat brigade. I would prefer the standard mini padlock approach (given that it is explained on the accompanying talk pages), but I can see the argument for the existing fugliness too. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:12, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, the little move protect padlock on the upper right is what I prefer. Readers who visit the article now will simply go elsewhere, once they see such a huge tag that says the article's been vandalized. If the little padlock is used instead, then editors would be able to figure out what's going on from the tag at the top of the talk page.Ferrylodge (talk) 08:11, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- You mean the little move protect padlock on the upper right, no? Sure, that's a lot more pleasant looking. It depends on the message. Do the 100-150K people who read the article every day need to know it's edit protected or not? The bigger the tag, the more press Wikipedia will get. I'm wondering if "deal with vandalism" is the best way to say it - it sounds kind of undignified. How about "until after the election to maintain article stability"? I'm not offended either way though.
Proposed addition
- Has anyone added or tried to add Obama's comments that he made about small town Americans, or is it too Fringe for the article, to actually add something Obama was quoted as saying? He has also been quoted as saying he would like to Spread the wealth around, or does this violate a policy on wikipedia? I didn't see it, but it may be hidden in the article somewhere.--Jojhutton (talk) 23:15, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- By the way, why can't you all actually let me respond before coming in and adding more. It keeps giving me edit conflicts, because I am responding to a pack of editors, while I am defending my position, but one or more editors are adding while I am responding, therefore making me have to readd and reedit every comment.--Jojhutton (talk) 23:15, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with Jojhutton that those two quotes should be mentioned or alluded to. Additionally, the extraordinary number of times that Obama voted "present" in the state legislature ought to be mentioned. These things can be fixed without removing the full protection. Perhaps Jojhutton would like to offer specific language for the proposed edits?Ferrylodge (talk) 23:27, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, um, we'll ask permission next time? Grsz11 →Review! 23:20, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
(Resetting indent) (and... Edit conflict!) That's just the nature of editing on Wikipedia. Someone makes a comment, a bunch of people want to respond, and boom... Edit conflicts. You get used to it. Now then... Look, how much weight does either quote have? The first is largely taken out of context. I can do the same thing with John McCain quotes, too. That's a campaign tactic, and has no place in Wikipedia. And the second quote is just one of the day's talking points. What does "spreading the wealth around" mean? Well, if you're a partisan attempting to insert a biased POV into this article, I'd guess it means "take money away from hard-working people and give it to welfare cheats." But perhaps it means "make everyone richer and bring about an economic turnaround." Is it important which is the correct interpretation? Only if you're here from DailyKos or FreeRepublic. --GoodDamon 23:25, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- I never mentioned interpretation, I only mentioned what he said. If any reader wants to use his/her own judgement of what Obama said versus what he really meant, well that is up to that particular reader and not up to "page protectors" to keep the quotes out.--Jojhutton (talk) 23:33, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- So without interpretation, what makes that particular sentence more notable than the several thousand other things he's said that also aren't in the article? --GoodDamon 23:43, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- The quote about spreading the wealth around was widely reported in the mainstream media, and it was augmented by subsequent press reports about a 2001 radio interview in which Obama endorsed the notion of redistributing wealth. See here. To omit any and all discussion of this from the present article does not seem right.Ferrylodge (talk) 00:10, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- Selective cherry picking of Obama quotes by his opponents-which cherry picking has been picked up by the mainstream media-is entirely about the United States presidential election, 2008. It will be old news by Nov. 5. That's why it's being rightly called Recentism and News by the majority of editors here. Give it a try, but I predict consensus will continue to support that view of Recentism and WP:NOTNEWS ~ priyanath talk 00:25, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- The quote about spreading the wealth around was widely reported in the mainstream media, and it was augmented by subsequent press reports about a 2001 radio interview in which Obama endorsed the notion of redistributing wealth. See here. To omit any and all discussion of this from the present article does not seem right.Ferrylodge (talk) 00:10, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- So without interpretation, what makes that particular sentence more notable than the several thousand other things he's said that also aren't in the article? --GoodDamon 23:43, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
The coverage I read suggests that the "spread the wealth" issue is mostly an election-year disparagement of the candidate, and was taken out of context in a misleading way by those promoting it. For example CNN calls it "misleading".[58] Although he may have said the words, he has said many words. Choosing a short phrase that is taken out of context as the latest talking point of his opponents fails as a WEIGHT / POV / COATRACK issue unless there is substantial enough coverage of the matter, independent of the election, to suggest that this statement has some biographical importance to his life. I just don't see it, not by a mile. Even if it were not a misrepresentation of his position it does not seem very relevant to his life. It may be worth a minor mention in a campaign article, to the extent one can source it as a significant campaign issue but even there one would have to fairly report it as part of the mechanics of negative campaigning via misrepresenting candidates' words. Further, I do not see much point discussing disputed additions right now. There is no realistic chance of the clear consensus it would take to add the material despite opposition to a protected page. Wikidemon (talk) 00:44, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- John McCain saying "The fundamentals of our economy are strong" received a lot of coverage. But we don't cover it here. Why? Because it's a minute portion of a larger speech that by itself isn't the best. We don't cover the day-to-day disputes of a campaign, especially in a biography. Grsz11 →Review! 00:47, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- And *"bomb, bomb iran" mccain* still gets 1,388 Google news hits. Talk about mainstream media coverage. And no, I'm not seriously suggesting it should go into the McCain article. All these things are part of the relatively short news cycle of a presidential campaign, not part of a serious biography that covers the main points of a person's life. ~ priyanath talk 02:01, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, I'm monitoring this page for proposed changes to be made. Is the agreement here that the quotes shouldn't be added? ~ L'Aquatique[talk] 03:33, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- And *"bomb, bomb iran" mccain* still gets 1,388 Google news hits. Talk about mainstream media coverage. And no, I'm not seriously suggesting it should go into the McCain article. All these things are part of the relatively short news cycle of a presidential campaign, not part of a serious biography that covers the main points of a person's life. ~ priyanath talk 02:01, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
This is not on. There is no consensus for protecting these articles. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:05, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- That was not what I asked. I asked if there was agreement to add or not add the quotes in question to the article. ~ L'Aquatique[talk] 19:15, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Where is the vandalism?
... that warranted a page protection? I do not see any evidence of vandalism that would warrant protection of this article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:09, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- This is barrack obama. First of all it has been vandalised, and if it hadn't...the chance of it getting vandalised is HUGE! Protection is annoying but neccesary.WikiReverter How am I doing? 04:14, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- No, my friend. Protection cannot be used as a preemptive measure, as per protection policy; see Wikipedia:PROTECTION#Full_protection ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:19, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- Jossi, full protection has no consensus. It's supported by a small, very predictable cadre of editors - extremely dedicated and unusual in the degree of their devotion - because it preserves the current criticism free version of the article. Obama could be indicted by Patrick Fitzgerald today and because of full protection, they'd be able to block it until after the election by arguing and delaying consensus. They have successfully blocked any criticism from this article, and full protection serves to preserve their editwarring victory until after November 4. Valid, notable, well-sourced criticism about Obama's associations with shady characters and organizations, ( WP:BLP vio redacted ), and his own controversial comments about the redistribution of wealth and white people "clinging to their guns and their religion" have been vigorously excluded, citing every Wikipedia policy, guideline and essay under the sun, but always falling back on WP:WEIGHTas a last line of defense because it's the Wikipedia way of saying, "I just don't like it and I'm going to get my way." WorkerBee74 (talk) 12:57, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- Hey WB, if Noroton's brief couldn't wade throught the an/i minefield, what makes ya think your polemics are gonna last! Justmeherenow ( ) 16:56, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- Jossi, full protection has no consensus. It's supported by a small, very predictable cadre of editors - extremely dedicated and unusual in the degree of their devotion - because it preserves the current criticism free version of the article. Obama could be indicted by Patrick Fitzgerald today and because of full protection, they'd be able to block it until after the election by arguing and delaying consensus. They have successfully blocked any criticism from this article, and full protection serves to preserve their editwarring victory until after November 4. Valid, notable, well-sourced criticism about Obama's associations with shady characters and organizations, ( WP:BLP vio redacted ), and his own controversial comments about the redistribution of wealth and white people "clinging to their guns and their religion" have been vigorously excluded, citing every Wikipedia policy, guideline and essay under the sun, but always falling back on WP:WEIGHTas a last line of defense because it's the Wikipedia way of saying, "I just don't like it and I'm going to get my way." WorkerBee74 (talk) 12:57, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, after reading Wikipedia:PROTECTION#Full_protection I can clearly understand that full protect can not be used as a preemptive measure, and that Jossi is 100% correct in his choice to voice opposition. I'm in agreement, now that I understand policy, that full protection is not the right thing to do here. I do not see a constant stream of vandalism in the history, which would warrant the full protection. It's simply not there. If this article, and any other article that was full protected as a preemptive measure isn't restored to semi-protection, then I'm going seek intervention. DigitalNinja 13:30, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- WorkerBee74 just got off a week's suspension, and he's itching to get his POV stuff into this article again. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 14:44, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) This is a great example of the argument over page protecting this article, and here is what should happen, IMO:
- WorkerBee74 start POV pushing
- He is reverted
- He adds the material again
- He is reverted by another user again
- Total time lapsed, 30 seconds
- He starts talk page edit warring
- He's told to stop
- He continues
- He's reported to AN/I
- He's block is reinstated
- Total time lapsed, 90 seconds
- In the mean time, 2 good faith editors make edits to the article (grammar correction, spelling, etc.)
- The spirit of the Wiki is preserved
DigitalNinja 16:06, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- Aye! ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:10, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- Grab your pitchforks and kick WorkerBee off Wikipedia's campaign coverage! Cf.: this Dallas Morning News report. -- Wait, WP articles are not part of the campaigns? Justmeherenow ( ) 16:44, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- No, they are not. And if you're here to edit because of the presidential campaign, you're here to edit for the wrong reasons. This is not the place for campaign talking points, for or against Obama. And why did you link to an opinion blog there? I'm not sure of the context for that. It doesn't even mention Wikipedia. --GoodDamon 16:52, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- I intended irony with that line, Damon; would you agree that even nonfringily Republicanesque critiques are not really brooked here? Say, above, from Ferrylodge. Justmeherenow ( ) 17:16, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- I have yet to see one proposed lately that isn't fringy or of undue weight, and they're all emerging from the John McCain campaign or surrogates. They are not suitable for inclusion in Obama's biography, any more than Democratic claims about McCain are suitable for his. Now then, real controversies that have honest-to-gosh affected Obama's life, such as the Wright controversy, are already in the article. Why? Because they affected Obama's life, or were demonstrably important to him in a direct way. --GoodDamon 17:31, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- I agree folks ought not be here cous of the pretzel campaigns. (Full disclosure: I'd literally likely vote for Bernie Sanders if he were to run in New Jersey so eg "spread the wealth" ain't no anathema to me.) But I also think WP should respect encyclopedia readers' intelligence and not be so afraid they will misinterpret factual information. When ppl make an argument eg "No! WP can't report that Obama is friends with a Palestinian. Ppl might draw the wrong conclusion" -- my rebuttal is, "An encyclopedia's job isn't to shepherd ppl's conclusions so much as it is to provide a factual basis for folks to come to their own conclusions." Which enables ppl to turn to Wikipedia after hearing some widespread snippet of innuendo, in order to ascertain the actual facts. Justmeherenow ( ) 17:52, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- I have yet to see one proposed lately that isn't fringy or of undue weight, and they're all emerging from the John McCain campaign or surrogates. They are not suitable for inclusion in Obama's biography, any more than Democratic claims about McCain are suitable for his. Now then, real controversies that have honest-to-gosh affected Obama's life, such as the Wright controversy, are already in the article. Why? Because they affected Obama's life, or were demonstrably important to him in a direct way. --GoodDamon 17:31, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- I intended irony with that line, Damon; would you agree that even nonfringily Republicanesque critiques are not really brooked here? Say, above, from Ferrylodge. Justmeherenow ( ) 17:16, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- No, they are not. And if you're here to edit because of the presidential campaign, you're here to edit for the wrong reasons. This is not the place for campaign talking points, for or against Obama. And why did you link to an opinion blog there? I'm not sure of the context for that. It doesn't even mention Wikipedia. --GoodDamon 16:52, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- Grab your pitchforks and kick WorkerBee off Wikipedia's campaign coverage! Cf.: this Dallas Morning News report. -- Wait, WP articles are not part of the campaigns? Justmeherenow ( ) 16:44, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Bernie Sanders? You mean Barack Obama isn't the socialist candidate for president? zOMG!!1!!1!1!!!one!!111!!!eleven. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 18:00, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- FWIW I'd suggest the best modus hereabouts would be to pose two questions. Is it a fact? Yes or no. Does a large contingent of the public believe it important? Yes or no. Two yesses, the item should be deemed to pass WP:Weight. Really, folks, a presidential campaign's coming in 2nd place is pretty much prima facie evidence its viewpoinst qualify for inclusion in WP as minority opinions and not to be banishing as fringy. Their coverage also has the added benefit of allowing a large swath of Wikicontributors to participate in their sourcing and in fine-tuning compromises as to which precise facts are essential and pertinent and what the most neutral way to inform readers of them would be. Justmeherenow ( ) 18:24, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- That's all well and good, but it should be in the correct article. I can find all kinds of reliable sources saying that orange juice is high in Vitamin C, but should I put those fine, well-sourced pieces of information in the article about elephants? No. Campaign talking points, especially ones that get widespread play, are definitely notable in the context of the campaign. They're just not notable here unless they have a demonstrable impact on or interaction with Obama's life. Let's say the Ayers smear resulted in Obama losing this election... That would be a consummate example of weight, and thus it would merit inclusion in his bio, having significantly affected him, although we would have to note that the bulk of reliable sources find the smear to be without merit. The smear itself would have affected him greatly, and thus including it would be proper. But right now? No, it's still just a campaign talking point. A notable one, certainly, notable enough for its own Wikipedia page. But not of import on Obama's life. At least, not yet. --GoodDamon 18:46, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- FWIW I'd suggest the best modus hereabouts would be to pose two questions. Is it a fact? Yes or no. Does a large contingent of the public believe it important? Yes or no. Two yesses, the item should be deemed to pass WP:Weight. Really, folks, a presidential campaign's coming in 2nd place is pretty much prima facie evidence its viewpoinst qualify for inclusion in WP as minority opinions and not to be banishing as fringy. Their coverage also has the added benefit of allowing a large swath of Wikicontributors to participate in their sourcing and in fine-tuning compromises as to which precise facts are essential and pertinent and what the most neutral way to inform readers of them would be. Justmeherenow ( ) 18:24, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- ^ I don't know who wrote the above comment (they forgot to sign, and I'm too lazy to view the history) but that paragraph actually made me smart(er). In fact, I'm tempted to mash my head against my computer screen to try and absorb some more of it through Osmosis. Seriously though, you explained your point very well. DigitalNinja 18:43, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- I also think we need to separate the question of neutrality and bias, from the question of article disruption (although bias is one of the claims some of the disruptive editors claim as justification for their misbehavior). With the exception of a few editors blocked or banned (and discussions closed) for repeated attempts to introduce fringe, BLP-violationing material, the vast majority of abuse and rancor has come from simple vandalism (the N word, comparing Obama to certain non-human primates, and "gay" everywhere), polemics about what bad things are going to happen to America if Obama is elected, attacking and insulting other editors, and tendentious wikigaming. That is not acceptable, no matter what the perceived political slant. As often happens throughout the project, there happens to be a lot of trouble coming from those who do not favor a neutral article and want to use the article to disparage its subject, but that misses the point.Wikidemon (talk) 18:58, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Unprotected... for now
Hi again everyone. Something of a compromise has been worked out and for now, I have returned this page to semi-protection. Please watch it carefully to ensure that vandalism is reverted ASAP. The page will be re-protected on the morning of Nov 4 until [within reason] the election results are officially posted. Thanks for everyone's patience and have a wonderful halloween. ~ L'Aquatique[talk] 23:41, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- Now that the article is back to semi-protection — it seems that 42 hours of full protection broke the vandalism cycle for a bit. ~ priyanath talk 18:27, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
- Me, being conservative, would say the vandalism wasn't ever there to begin with :) DigitalNinja 18:54, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
- Would all conservatives consider these edits to not be vandalism?[59][60][61][62] Or is it just you, being conservative? There are more such difs, but since protection was lifted we seem to be having a nice spell of quiet. ~ priyanath talk 19:20, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
- Whoa! Of course I would consider those vandalism. However, it was well within manageable limits. I was simply stating that semi-protection is the best way to go here. Perhaps you are correct that the brief period of full protection has reduced vandalism as a whole. Looking at it another way though, with 115 page views a minute, do you really think thats the case? One thing we do agree on is the page is definitely quieter than it was! Cheers DigitalNinja 19:29, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
- No editor or Admin has the right to lock pages, thereby keeping those who oppose their views on the subject off the page. We must let each page be open and let each edit stand on its own. Revert what is vandalism and keep what is properly cited. That goes for every page, regardless of who the subject is and what the subject matter pertains to. This article is suger-coated, plain and simple. Not one mention of anything truely useful for every reader of this page. Keep it open and keep it fresh.--Jojhutton (talk) 19:32, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
- Whoa! Of course I would consider those vandalism. However, it was well within manageable limits. I was simply stating that semi-protection is the best way to go here. Perhaps you are correct that the brief period of full protection has reduced vandalism as a whole. Looking at it another way though, with 115 page views a minute, do you really think thats the case? One thing we do agree on is the page is definitely quieter than it was! Cheers DigitalNinja 19:29, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
- Would all conservatives consider these edits to not be vandalism?[59][60][61][62] Or is it just you, being conservative? There are more such difs, but since protection was lifted we seem to be having a nice spell of quiet. ~ priyanath talk 19:20, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
- Me, being conservative, would say the vandalism wasn't ever there to begin with :) DigitalNinja 18:54, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
(<----) Jojhutton, please stop being disruptive. DigitalNinja 19:50, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Administrator lock?
I propose a week-or-so-long administrator lock on both McCain's and Obama's articles. Why? Because just think not only of the aforementioned muiltiple and simultaneous edits, but also alllll the heavy vandalism we're in store for on Tuesday night. Who thinks this proposal sounds good? Tim010987 (talk) 08:51, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
- So basically this is a proposal to halt free speech during a national election, in a country that prides itself on free speech? Not what we need to do at this point, regardless of vandalism. Any true patriotic American should not be in favor of locking these pages.--Jojhutton (talk) 19:11, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
- That's funny. Tell us another one. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 20:48, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
- lol - are you new here? Unless there's some related new story in the news, I'd say everybody has had more than enough 'free speech' in these Wikipedia articles to last them a long, long time. We should all be able to take a break on Election Day and not have to be watching for vandalism every second. What's with all the johnnie-come-latelies who suddenly want to jump in, anyway? I completely support the Election Day full protection. Flatterworld (talk) 19:28, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
- Jojhutton, Wikipedia is "private property", and the only right is whatever Wikimedia decides it wants to do with this website. In fact, they would be well within their rights to turn this entire project into a massive Pro-obama machine. Flatterworld, this line made me laugh; "are you new here" LOL DigitalNinja 19:31, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
- I never infered that wikipedia was public, although it can be agreed that wikipedia belongs to the public. My point is that if we are discussing a topic about a free and open election, isn't it a bit ironic to cut off free speech, even on wikipedia.--Jojhutton (talk) 19:47, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
- First off, Wikipedia does not belong to the public regardless of how much we'd like it too, or how much we believe in what it stands for. It belongs to Wikimedia, a private entity. Stop diluting you thoughts with bent ideas leaning on philosophy instead of reality. Second, this is not a soapbox for you to preach about the free world. I already left you a message on your talk page about disruption. Please find a neutral article to work on, or something. I'll help you with something if you want. Just let this article be as people are already wore out enough. DigitalNinja 19:54, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
- I never infered that wikipedia was public, although it can be agreed that wikipedia belongs to the public. My point is that if we are discussing a topic about a free and open election, isn't it a bit ironic to cut off free speech, even on wikipedia.--Jojhutton (talk) 19:47, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
- Only problem is WP is not built on free speech. Grsz11 →Review! 20:01, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
- Jojhutton, Wikipedia is "private property", and the only right is whatever Wikimedia decides it wants to do with this website. In fact, they would be well within their rights to turn this entire project into a massive Pro-obama machine. Flatterworld, this line made me laugh; "are you new here" LOL DigitalNinja 19:31, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
←Ok -let's move on from the constitutional argument please. Tim and everyone, see here - it has been more or less agreed that the articles about the four principle players will be on semi-protection until Tuesday, full protection starting Tuesday morning until the results are announced at which time we'll go back to semi-protection. Assuming nothing changes. Tvoz/talk 20:15, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Bad faith removal of information
I find it extremely troubling that editors who often edit positive information have removed information and the talk page discussion from this page. This suggests possible bad faith. I will assume good faith by putting back the information and see if they remove it (which would show bad faith). Midemer (talk) 22:03, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
Removed info:
Propaganda for the next President should not be permitted on wP ==
There is a pro-Obama bias. wp must not be the american propaganda source. wp must be neutral. for example, sections are supposed to be summaries of th sub-articles. yet this article hides neutral (slightly negative) information. this could be that nobody thought of it or it could be the work of the campaign supporters. for example, mr. obama's campaign got everyone disqualified from the ballot so he won unopposed, not unlike north korean dictator, kim il sung. this was his first election to the illinois senate. later, he didn't try this for his other elections. we must make a note of it in the article
Originally placed by editor BBBH.
I disagree with the above (unrefined language) except I agree with the edit about the Obama disqualifying others from the ballot.