→The Question of Barack Obama's Place of Birth: not even asking for it to be in the article, so its trolling. ganked. |
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::Significance of Barack's Kansas heritage is often cited by Barack himself. As such, it seems that he considers this to be of central significance, immediate family or not. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Informationispower2008|Informationispower2008]] ([[User talk:Informationispower2008|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Informationispower2008|contribs]]) 23:58, 28 September 2008 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
::Significance of Barack's Kansas heritage is often cited by Barack himself. As such, it seems that he considers this to be of central significance, immediate family or not. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Informationispower2008|Informationispower2008]] ([[User talk:Informationispower2008|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Informationispower2008|contribs]]) 23:58, 28 September 2008 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== The Question of Barack Obama's Place of Birth == |
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ObamaCrimes.com states the following on [[Barack Obama]]'s REAL place of birth: |
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<blockquote> |
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Philip J. Berg, Esquire, the Attorney who filed suit against Barack H. Obama challenging Senator Obama’s lack of “qualifications” to serve as President of the United States, announced today that Obama and Democratic National Committee [DNC] filed a Joint Motion to Dismiss on the last day to file a response, for the obvious purpose of delaying Court action in the case of Berg v. Obama, No. 08-cv-04083. |
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Their joint motion indicates a concerted effort to avoid the truth by delaying the judicial process, although legal, by not resolving the issue presented: that is, whether Barack Obama was “natural born.” |
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It is obvious that Obama was born in Kenya and does not meet the “qualifications” to be President of the United States pursuant to our United States Constitution. Obama cannot produce a certified copy of his “Vault” [original long version] Birth Certificate from Hawaii because it does not exist. |
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</blockquote>[http://obamacrimes.com/index.php/component/content/article/1-main/22-obama-a-dnc-hide-behind-legal-issues-country-headed-to-a-constitutional-crisis] |
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[[User:Angie Y.|Angie Y.]] ([[User talk:Angie Y.#top|talk]]) 22:42, 28 September 2008 (UTC) |
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:So? Look at the source. Do you really think there work has any place in an encylopedia? Obama was born more in the US than McCain was, but both as citizens. '''[[User:Grsz11|<font color="black">Grsz</font>]][[User talk:Grsz11|<b><font color="red"><sup>talk</sup></font></b>]]''' 04:22, 29 September 2008 (UTC) |
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:(ec) We've discussed this odd little conspiracy theory already. Obama was born in Hawaii. Obamacrimes.com is not a reliable source. The suit, even if real, is not notable. Anybody can file suit against anyone in America, and apparently one has. Berg has also sued George Bush and perhaps John McCain on other conspiracy theories it seems. Given the editor's recent edit history and the article probation status (see notice at top of page) I'll caution this editor not to promote conspiracy theories on important article talk pages. [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 04:30, 29 September 2008 (UTC) |
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This should be added. It's something involving Barack's true place of origin. [[User:Angie Y.|Angie Y.]] ([[User talk:Angie Y.|talk]]) 12:09, 29 September 2008 (UTC) |
Revision as of 12:09, 29 September 2008
Template:Community article probation
Barack Obama is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 |
This page has archives. Sections older than 5 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
Website?
I think this should be in the section where it shows his website. The Obama for Illinois senator is old and outdated. http://www.barackobama.com/splash/first_to_know.html user:chasesboys
BarackObama.com is already included, I move to delete this section. natezomby (talk)
Removal of misunderstanding of Obama's religion
How do editors feel about this edit? We had some material for a while in the "cultural and political image" section that said, basically "Obama is a Christian, but a lot of folks incorrectly believe him to be Muslim." There was always a difference of opinion on whether that "cultural perception" was noteworthy (clearly not directly a fact of his biography in any "what he did" sense; but arguably so in a "how he is perceived" sense). Obama's actual religion is well discussed earlier in the article, in any case.
I think I personally lean towards supporting the removal of that material (but only lean), but it seems odd for it to have been removed without any comment on this talk page. So I guess that means, I hereby comment :-). LotLE×talk 23:49, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Good catch, hadn't noticed that. I think I lean towards its removal as well, as it's already covered in detail elsewhere and it's of questionable biographical value, but I'm definitely open to being convinced otherwise. --GoodDamon 23:52, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Whoops. Didn't realize i'd be odd if I didn't comment on the talk page . I removed it because I felt that a poll conducted 3 months ago by a few publications was of little encyclopedic importance, and it's already stressed in the article. Have a nice day. --Smuckers It has to be good 11:35, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Arabic form of his name
I'll probably be posting this same question on the talk-page for the Arabic translation of this article, but: What is the correct form of Mr. Obama's name in Arabic? The Arabic wikipedia uses "باراك أوباما" (bārāk 'ūbāmā), but I think it should be "براك عباماء" (barāk `abāmā'), in which case his first and last names would be Arabic lexical words just like his middle name. DavidLeeLambert (talk) 16:08, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- My hunch is that this is the wrong page on which to ask about Arabic orthography. It seems more likely that someone can give you a good answer on the Arabic Wikipedia. LotLE×talk 16:13, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
- Discussion is closed as it is a repeat of the same argument as in the FAQ. Brothejr (talk) 11:27, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
2nd paragraph, 1st sentence
I've followed this issue for months and all the past conversation about it has been pointless due to too much absolutism.
This sentence:
- "Obama is the first African American to be nominated by a major political party for president"
is not false, but it is inaccurate because it's specific to the point of falsity due to fact exclusion. It should read like this:
- "Obama is the first candidate of African American heritage to be nominated by a major political party for president"
The problem with the current version stems from what the meaning of "is" is. When Bill Clinton turned that phrase, he was mocked in some corners as trying to parse things in a self-serving manner. But he did have a point: How you parse a sentence definately changes its meaning. Change the meaning of "is" and the meaning of the sentence changes. Obama is not "is" African American exclusively but our current sentence falsely suggests he is. The way to reconcile that is to point out that he's "of" African American "heritage". That leaves enough room to make clear that there's African American in his background, without doing what we are doing now which is aligning ourselves with the non-factual POV that Obama "is" African American. 216.153.214.89 (talk) 19:01, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- This topic is a waste of time. Everything in the sentence is accurate. Duuude007 (talk) 19:38, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- I think the sentence which I offer as an alternative is more accurate, more true and less POV. 216.153.214.89 (talk) 06:41, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
- Read WP:V. The statement is based on what he calls himself, and the fact that it can be verified. If he chose to call himself biracial or multiracial, I suppose that could also be verified, but he adopted the role of AA. It is his decision to make, not your's. Again, this topic is a waste of time. Duuude007 (talk) 20:02, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
- Of course, the question is actually moot, and this is the 200th time this same question has been raised by editors who don't want to read the FAQ or talk archives. However, Duuude007's now piqued my interest slightly. The conclusion is correct that we can't just decide what we, as editors, would most accurately describe Obama as. However, it isn't quite right that the decision belongs to the bio subject. In truth, it belongs to the consensus of reliable sources. If for some reason a bio subject wanted to be referred to in one way (in terms of ethnic/racial background), but the media who reported on her/him wouldn't go along, it would be our job to defer to the published sources not the subject herself. I can think of a few cases where that distinction matters; it obviously doesn't create any contrast here though. LotLE×talk 20:09, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
- Did anoyne one even read the sentence I offered? I am not trying to take out "African American". 216.153.214.89 (talk) 05:04, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, we did. But your option, as we pointed out, is an unnecessary waste of time technicality, one which even he does not consider. Therefore, I have strong prediction value that the consensus will remain unchanged, and that you are still wasting your time. Duuude007 (talk) 05:56, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
- So you are saying that editorial clarity is an "unnecessary waste of time"? 216.153.214.89 (talk) 03:12, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Previous elections
I think this article could use some more information on his previous election wins - state senate and U.S. senate for instance. I came here for information on Barack's prior wins and while the U.S. senate part talks about how Obama already had it in the bag when Ryan had to quit, there is nothing about how he won his state senate seat. I'm sure he won in a landslide like he did for U.S. senate though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.98.0.187 (talk) 21:44, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
- And that would be what Illinois Senate career of Barack Obama is for. This article is in summary style, which means everything is given the bird's-eye treatment, while the sub-articles go into detail. --GoodDamon 22:00, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Oh, I see, I just read that article and now I see why there's no mention of it on Obama's main page as it makes it look like he won by default, and that would not be good for the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.98.0.187 (talk) 21:34, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
Paternal relations
Howdy, should the wikilink for Kenyan relatives be Obama Family#Paternal relations|Kenyan relatives instead of Obama Family|Kenyan relatives
Any admin willing to make that minor editBoris3883 (talk) 15:16, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
- Doesn't take an admin, just an established editor. And I went ahead and did it. It's a good change and relatively minor. --GoodDamon 15:25, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Father Son Name Thing: Jr. vs. II
It is my understanding that the following is true. Sr. and Jr. are used for father and son. However, if a child is directly named for another older relative and has the same surname, II is used. Am I wrong? Is "II" on Obama's birth certificate? Do we know? CallidoraBlack (talk) 18:07, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
His birth certificate says II. Duuude007 (talk) 18:16, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Further, his birth certificate says "Barack Hussein Obama II". Joe Levi 19:17, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
- Mine says "Joseph Mortimer Finchwistle" (not really), but that doesn't mean Mortimer goes in my article's theoretical infobox. Check other people's infoboxes, and you'll see the middle name is not typically there. --GoodDamon 19:25, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
- I just checked, and the template documentation says nothing about the middle name being required. It says of the birth_name field: "Name at birth, if different from name." It's not different. It's just that he doesn't go by his complete name, any more than I do or most people do. The name on the infobox isn't "different" from his birth name just because it's not his complete birth name. Now, if someone went by a nickname or changed their legal name or something like that, that's what the birth_name field is for. But not just to incorporate the person's middle name. --GoodDamon 20:55, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed. Overwhelming practice is as described above, and as used here. The Birth name field is for subjects like Irving Berlin, where the name by which the person is known is actually a different name than their given name at birth. It is not intended for cases where someone does not commonly use his or her middle name and/or suffix. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, which means we do not blindly follow policy for policy's sake. If the documentation differs from prevailing practice, the correct resolution is to fix the documentation. --Clubjuggle T/C 21:01, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) It's also worth noting that this article uses {{Infobox Officeholder}} (as redirected from {{Infobox Senator}}), not {{Infobox Person}}. The documentation for Infobox Person therefore does not apply here. --Clubjuggle T/C 03:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Questionable claims about race
Why isn't there any mention of republicans and white nationalists claiming Obama shouldn't be considered black? They have even gone so far as to call his father an Arab. Why isn't this mentioned?YVNP (talk) 00:38, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
- An interesting angle. We often get people editing the article or asking here why he is called African-American by editors who insist he is not. I always assumed that these were mostly African-Americans, multiracial people, and others who were objecting to the way Americans think about race, particularly the so-called One-drop rule. The Arab / Muslim thing, emphasizing his middle name, etc., sees to come from people who are misinformed or spreading untrue rumors... That was in this article for a while but eventually people decided that the untrue things other people say about Obama isn't really related to the story of his life, which is what this article is all about. There is some mention of all this in the Public image of Barack Obama article. Hope that helps.Wikidemon (talk) 01:49, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
- Why does it matter who's claiming that Obama shouldn't be considered African-American? I'm sure there are Democrats, Independents, blacks, whites, Asians, etc. that don't believe he should be considered African-American. Regardless, I agree with Wikidemon and believe that topic is more appropriate for a public image article. Obama's own identification of his ethnicity should be all that matters for this article, unless it were something crazy like if he believed he was a Vulcan or something crazy like that. --Amwestover (talk) 15:06, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
RE: 2nd paragraph, 1st sentence
I've followed this issue for months and all the past conversation about it has been pointless due to too much absolutism.
This sentence:
- "Obama is the first African American to be nominated by a major political party for president"
is not false, but it is inaccurate because it's specific to the point of falsity due to fact exclusion. It should read like this:
- "Obama is the first candidate of African American heritage to be nominated by a major political party for president"
I haven't followed the conversation for months, and I'm not pouring through 35 pages of archives to find it, but here's my two cents: I think this is ridiculously complicated because of political correctness. I think there is merit in not wanting to broadly paint Obama's ethnicity with a brush, but I think it's understood by most level-headed people that "African American" means an American with at least some black ancestry. I don't necessarily agree with this collective consensus, but it's not something I'm going to climb the Reichstag in a Spider-Man suit over. Besides, when it comes to something like this I believe that it's the person's own identification that matters unless it's a ridiculous assertion, such as Uncle Ruckus saying he's white.
And regardless of all that, the second sentence is technically incorrect. "Of African American heritage" would entail that Obama's father is from Detroit or something. But he's Kenyan, so he's African not African American. Therefore, Obama may be considered African American, but he's not of African American heritage. If your goal is emphasize that he's not 100% black (which probably a sizable portion of the African American population isn't), then you'd need to use different wording. --Amwestover (talk) 15:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
- The sentence I offered as an alternative says the same thing, but with more precision and clarity. 216.153.214.89 (talk) 04:14, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
Raila Odinga
In the Raila Odinga article there's been reoccurring removal of some information about the connection to Obama and his visit to Kenya in 2006. Can more people look in to it (and the discussion on the talk page Talk:Raila_Odinga#Obama connection, WP:NPOV, WP:LIVE, WP:V, WP:WEB), since it is removed by claim of breaking WP:LIVE and unsourced (even if the sources [4], [5], [6]) is Chicago Sun-Times/Daniel Johnson and The Chicago Sun-Times/Lynn Sweet and footage by CBS2/Mike Flannery. Nsaa (talk) 13:14, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
- The removals are completely appropriate. A wordpress blog and a youtube video do not qualify as reliable source, and an opinion piece on the New York Sun is not a reliable source for anything but its author's opinions. But why are you bringing this up here? This is a page for discussing improvements to Barack Obama's biography. --GoodDamon 15:38, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry for bringing it here. Did it because the user removing the paragraph involving Obama, claims WP:LIVE. (and hopefully more people with a close relationship to the area can help making a jugdment). The sources above are from big newspapers and a television station (if not the youtube-video is a forge?) Nsaa (talk) 16:12, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Barack's Current Kansas Family
Current members of Barack Obama's Kansas family include Margaret McCurry Wolf of Hutchinson and her son Milton R. Wolf, M.D. of Leawood, Spence McCurry of Wichita and his children Spencer, Frank, Kelli and Jamie.
Perhaps this should be added to the main page?
- I doubt it. They're not members of his immediate family, they're part of his extended family. If anywhere, they should be described (with sources) in Family of Barack Obama. --GoodDamon 13:38, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
- Significance of Barack's Kansas heritage is often cited by Barack himself. As such, it seems that he considers this to be of central significance, immediate family or not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Informationispower2008 (talk • contribs) 23:58, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
The Question of Barack Obama's Place of Birth
ObamaCrimes.com states the following on Barack Obama's REAL place of birth:
Philip J. Berg, Esquire, the Attorney who filed suit against Barack H. Obama challenging Senator Obama’s lack of “qualifications” to serve as President of the United States, announced today that Obama and Democratic National Committee [DNC] filed a Joint Motion to Dismiss on the last day to file a response, for the obvious purpose of delaying Court action in the case of Berg v. Obama, No. 08-cv-04083.
Their joint motion indicates a concerted effort to avoid the truth by delaying the judicial process, although legal, by not resolving the issue presented: that is, whether Barack Obama was “natural born.”
It is obvious that Obama was born in Kenya and does not meet the “qualifications” to be President of the United States pursuant to our United States Constitution. Obama cannot produce a certified copy of his “Vault” [original long version] Birth Certificate from Hawaii because it does not exist.
Angie Y. (talk) 22:42, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
- So? Look at the source. Do you really think there work has any place in an encylopedia? Obama was born more in the US than McCain was, but both as citizens. Grsztalk 04:22, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
- (ec) We've discussed this odd little conspiracy theory already. Obama was born in Hawaii. Obamacrimes.com is not a reliable source. The suit, even if real, is not notable. Anybody can file suit against anyone in America, and apparently one has. Berg has also sued George Bush and perhaps John McCain on other conspiracy theories it seems. Given the editor's recent edit history and the article probation status (see notice at top of page) I'll caution this editor not to promote conspiracy theories on important article talk pages. Wikidemon (talk) 04:30, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
This should be added. It's something involving Barack's true place of origin. Angie Y. (talk) 12:09, 29 September 2008 (UTC)