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::@[[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] Yes, well the content here that is being inappropriately changed is the origins. The IP user changes the ethnic origin of Zafar Khan from "Afghan Pashtun" to "Punjabi Arain". This user did this on the page of [[Ala-ud-Din Bahman Shah]] numerous times without adding a source as shown here in these diffs: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ala-ud-Din_Bahman_Shah&diff=prev&oldid=1164139349], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ala-ud-Din_Bahman_Shah&diff=prev&oldid=1164569954], and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ala-ud-Din_Bahman_Shah&diff=prev&oldid=1165240381]. Each of these edits were reverted. The latest edit of the user was on the page of the [[Bahmani Sultanate]] itself where he repeated it as you showed in your diff example. I am also not sure of what document/source they are attempting to reference. Despite being reverted by me and other editors, the user persistently continued to push their edit on the [[Ala-ud-Din Bahman Shah]] without regard and didn't add a source. |
::@[[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] Yes, well the content here that is being inappropriately changed is the origins. The IP user changes the ethnic origin of Zafar Khan from "Afghan Pashtun" to "Punjabi Arain". This user did this on the page of [[Ala-ud-Din Bahman Shah]] numerous times without adding a source as shown here in these diffs: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ala-ud-Din_Bahman_Shah&diff=prev&oldid=1164139349], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ala-ud-Din_Bahman_Shah&diff=prev&oldid=1164569954], and [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ala-ud-Din_Bahman_Shah&diff=prev&oldid=1165240381]. Each of these edits were reverted. The latest edit of the user was on the page of the [[Bahmani Sultanate]] itself where he repeated it as you showed in your diff example. I am also not sure of what document/source they are attempting to reference. Despite being reverted by me and other editors, the user persistently continued to push their edit on the [[Ala-ud-Din Bahman Shah]] without regard and didn't add a source. |
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::@[[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] [[User:Noorullah21|Noorullah]] ([[User talk:Noorullah21|talk]]) 08:19, 14 July 2023 (UTC) |
::@[[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] [[User:Noorullah21|Noorullah]] ([[User talk:Noorullah21|talk]]) 08:19, 14 July 2023 (UTC) |
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== Origin == |
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I thought it would be nice to start up the talk page and begin to discuss it out. @[[User:Mydust|Mydust] |
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I see your concern with is that some of the sources could be unreliable, and I see some of the ones you pointed out with Everett. But that is ignoring the others. Ruthermund and Kulke, which are both historians, state this: '''on page 181 of: A History of India.''' |
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" The Bahmani sultanate of the Deccan Soon after Muhammad Tughluq left Daulatabad, the city was conquered by Zafar Khan, a Turkish or Afghan officer of unknown descent, had earlier participated in a mutiny of troops in Gujarat." |
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Kerr gordon says this in his '''A Short History of India: From the Earliest Civilisations to Today's Economic Powerhouse.''' |
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In the early fourteenth century, the Muslim Bahmani kingdom of the Deccan emerged following Alauddin's conquest of the south. Zafar Khan, an Afghan general and governor appointed by Sultan Muhammad bin Tughluq, was victorious against the troops of the Delhi Sultanate, establishing the Bahmani kingdom with its capital at Ahsanabad (modern-day Gulbarga). |
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Historian Fereshta also calls them Afghan per ''' Indo-Islamic society: 14th - 15th centuries.''' on page 160. [[User:Noorullah21|Noorullah]] ([[User talk:Noorullah21|talk]]) 21:46, 16 July 2023 (UTC) |
Revision as of 21:46, 16 July 2023
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Untitled
The following statement may or may not be true, but it must be documented:
"The Bahmanis were responsible for large scale massacres and slaughter of south Indian Hindu population and destruction of temples, often overshadowing the atrocities conducted by Turks and Mughals in north India."
Massacres, slaughter and destruction of temples suggest POV issues in the absence of documentation. It is not enough to say "everyone knows this". Give a citation.
- Probably nothing of this sort happened. Student's britannica writes that Bahmani sultans showed relegious tolerance and non-interference to Hindus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.96.226.88 (talk) 07:30, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Capital names
True, the Bahmani sultans renamed their two capitals "Ahsanabad" and "Muhammadabad", but shouldn't they be called by their former and later names in the article, i.e. Gulbarga and Bidar? So that more people know where they are and that they still exist?
Contemporary sources like the Riyaz ul-insha' (which I have read) usually mention both names, e.g "Muhammadabad Bidar". So probably most people called their city Bidar anyway. Curryfranke (talk) 12:03, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
Shi'a
Traces of Shi'ism in south India are very few before 1500. Iran became a Shi'i country in 1501, and immigrants from Iran before 1500 were Sunnis of the Shafi'i mazhab. Shi'as did exist as a small minority in Qom and Mashhad, and among the Turkish tribes of Azerbaijan, but they were not specially attracted to India. The Grand Vizier Mahmud Gawan was a staunch Sunni and retained close relations with the great poet and Naqshbandi pir Jami, who was a staunch Sunni by profession. Curryfranke (talk) 12:13, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
Shiísm in Iran has a long tradition. Once, up to the rise of Safavids, they were a small minority dominated by their Sunni brothers. The Buyyids, Sardebaran and many other smaller dynasties were Shiits. The Safavids forced the dominant Sunnis to convert from Sunnism to Shiism. But before the arise of Shiism in Iran Shiism was already established well and was not uncommon among people. Great scholars like al-Farabi, Ibn Sina etc. were all Shias and belonged mostly either to the 12th Imamits or were Ismaelis (Ibn Sina). Rumi was a Shia Alevit. --188.107.4.206 (talk) 13:14, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
One of the sources cited to prove that the Bahmanis were Shia clearly mentions that they were Sunni, so I will make the correct changes--Mydust (talk) 20:56, 16 July 2020 (UTC) (Only speaking on my own behalf), as a claimed descendant of Bahman sultans, I am a Sunni with Sufi Chishtiya orientation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C7:5D88:6801:D983:87E2:AA32:794C (talk) 10:20, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
Qasim_Barid_I
Qasim Barid I , this article says that Qasim Barid I (r.1489-1504) was a prime-minister of the Bahmani sultanate and the founder of the Bidar Sultanate, -- Raghith 08:50, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
Mohammed Shah II
- Mohammed Shah II 1378–1397 the internal link wrong. it goes to the Turkeyhistory. But this article is about Indian history.--தகவலுழவன் (talk) 02:41, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
Orphaned references in Bahmani Sultanate
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Bahmani Sultanate's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "m":
- From Ahmadnagar Sultanate: Majumdar, R.C. (ed.) (2007). The Mughul Empire, Mumbai: Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, ISBN 81-7276-407-1, pp.415–45
- From Ala-ud-Din Bahman Shah: Majumdar, R.C. (ed.) (2006). The Delhi Sultanate, Mumbai:Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, p.248
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 11:43, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
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Fanatics?
Cuddly Visionary, now blocked for socking, has contributed this line:
Vincent Smith and Nilakanta Sastri stated that the Bahmani Sultans were fanatics and did not show any interest in general welfare of their subjects.[1]
References
The relevant found in the Introductory chapter of the thesis says:
While assessing the character of the Bahmani rule, modern writers like Vincent Smith and Nilakanta Sastri, have remarked that the Bahmani Sultans were fanatics and did not evince any interest in the general welfare of their subjecta.[1] But an impartial study of the Bahmani rule enables us to say that the views of these historians about the Bahmani Sultans betray the fallacy of generalisation and are unjustifiably harsh. A dynasty which produced rulers like Hasan Bahman Shah, Firuz Shah and others, who evinced keen interest in the general well-being of their subjects, deserves better treatment at the hands of historians.
A fine example of WP:NPOV editing? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:13, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
Removal of references to 'Deccani' or North Indian in the intro
In response to User:पाटलिपुत्र's removals based on the reasoning: '"From Northern India" is not the same as "Northern Indian", stop the distortion please and follow the sources'
Notwithstanding the first Bahmanid Sultan 'Hasan Gangu's obscure descent, see the descriptions of the founders of the kingdom in general: Richard Eaton not only specifies the term "North Indian" settlers, or "North Indian immigrants" to describe the founders of the dynasty : "On the one hand, the court was obliged to patronize the descendants of those north Indian settlers who had migrated to the Deccan in the fourteenth century, and who, rebelling against Delhi, had launched the dynasty"[1], "North Indian immigrants who had settled in the Deccan from the 1320s" as the people who revolted against Delhi but specifies that they were characterized by their speech of "an early form of Hindavi called Dakani."[2] The historian Jamal Malik uses the words 'local' or 'North Indian Muslim' to describe the founders of the Bahmanid state: "change of capital to Daulatabad(1337) proved to be the most important vehicle by which North Indian Muslim ideas and institutions crossed the Narmada. The status of being a tributary to the Sultanate was deeply resented by the local Muslims, culminating in the revolt by Deccani nobles led by Ala al-Din Hasan Bahman Shah in 1347, eventually establishing an independent kingdom called the Bahmani kingdom."[3]
But more important than 'north indian', is the key word "Deccani". Even after the descendents of the North Indian settlers in the Bahmanid state adopted a south Indian 'Deccani' identity', as according to Roy Fischel, they "aimed to distinguish themselves from their North Indian ancestors and later from the Foreigners", he points out that nonetheless: "The attitudes of the Deccan Sultanates towards their neighbours reflect some of the sensitivities of the Deccanis within the local political system. More than any other group, the Deccanis were associated with the Deccan Sultanates...This framing enables us to locate the Deccanis within their environment as the most dominant group when it comes to determining the direction of the Sultanates."[4] Richard Eaton: "If the Deccanis manifested a colonial idea, namely a society composed of transplanted settler-founders and their descendants, the Westerners represented a cultural idea: a refined style of comportment, an eminent tradition of statescraft, a prestigious language". The Sultanate was defined by its founding by the Deccanis and their North Indian ancestors; therefore the term "Sunni Persianate" in the current introduction in the page is an incomplete definition of the Bahmanid Sultanate, because Persianate is not an ethnicity, but solely cultural. It mentions one without the other, therefore giving undue weight. Fischel says that regarding the 'Persianate' element: "Their continous transient nature emphasises the weakness of their vertical connections to the political structure."[5] This is why Fischel emphasizes that the Deccanis i.e. the Deccani Muslims were the most associated with the political structure, and the 'most dominant group' when it comes to determining the direction of the Sultanates. Overton: "consequently more than other elites [Deccanis], the Foreigners were dependent on the conditions of the host courts themselves. Once a court lost stability, direct patronage, employment, and defense dwindled, the Foreigners left."[6] Threfore it is necessary to emphasize the Deccanis' as being the strongest in association with the identity of the political structure, while the 'Persianate' in contrast had weak connections to the political structure of the Sultanate. Therefore, instead of incomplete descriptions giving undue weight such as 'Persianate state' which could apply to almost everything from the Tipu Sultan to Ilkhanids, not only should it be designated an Indo-Muslim state as Richard Eaton does[7]. but ethnically it is more appropriate specify the word 'Deccani' when describing the Bahmanid kingdom, relating to the Deccani Muslim people, with a Persianate or Indo-Persian culture. Eaton says the Bahmanid court was obliged to patronise those descendents of 'North Indian' settlers who had "launched the dynasty". Yaaminey Mubayi: "The Deccanis...enabled the founding of the kingdom"[8]-----Mydust (talk)
- You yourself cited the Encyclopedia Iranica, which says:
The Bahmanid kingdom was not only the first independent Muslim kingdom in South India, but it was also one of the greatest centers of Iranian culture in the sub-continent. The Bahmanid elite consisted mainly of Iranian, Turk, Dakanī, or Muslim migrants from northern India, in addition to the local Hindu population; however, the Iranians along with the Turks and Afghans dominated Bahmanid society and to a large extent shaped its destiny.
- So you are clearly trying to straitjacket a much more complex picture. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:38, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
- I am also unclear what "Deccani identity" is supposed to be. What is it? Where did it come from? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:57, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
- "You yourself cited the Encyclopedia Iranica, which says:"
- It wasn't me who cited Iranica, in fact in my last edit summary, I emphasized that N. H. Ansari was less of an authoritative source compared to Richard Eaton and Roy Fischel, the former(N. H. Ansari) being written in 1988 and the latter (richard eaton) being the leading historian in this decade.
- As for what Deccanis are, they are currently an ethnic group in southern india that speak the Dakhni language, and attribute their origin to the migration of North Indians to Daulatabad during the Delhi Sultanate. But according to Richard Eaton, "Deccani" referred to a North Indian immigrant who opposed Tuhgluq rule." Within the Bahmanid era, Deccani was not only a socio-cultural identifier but also a political class linked by the Dakhni language and the Sunni religion, which Fischel describes extensively in "Local States in an Imperial World: Identity, Society and Politics in the Early Modern Deccan" where he emphasizes that "More than any other group, the Deccanis were associated with the Deccan Sultanates".
- The historian Helen Philon makes it clear that it is not known whether Hasan Gangu, the founder was of foreign ancestry or a Hindu convert, and it is equally possible that he could have been of either origin. But Abdul Malik Isami, who actually was of foreign ancestry of Iraq, and the first court historian of the Bahmanids in the 14th century is a good example of his class, being born in Delhi and one of the immigrants forced to migrate from Hindustan to the Deccan by the Delhi Sultanate. He wrote the Futuh-as-Salatin justifying Bahmanid rebellion against the Delhi Sultanate, and was critical of its rule and its forced migrations. He says "(My poetic disposition) said : 'Hindustan is your place — the birth place of your grandfather and forefathers.'" Like Richard Eaton and Fischel says, these north indian immigrants were primarily Hindavi-speakers and brought the Hindavi language to the Deccan which morphed into Deccani. "Isami also explains the context of his writing, in his view, as pious Deccani Muslims rising up against the northern tyrant Muhammad bin Tughluq"(The Language of History:Sanskrit Narratives of Indo-Muslim Rule)-Mydust (talk) 20:00, 28 April 2023 (UTC)
A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
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Per explanation
The IP user was disruptively editing the page via editing its origins section and overriding the reverts of numerou sother editors while doing so and completely ignoring it to POV-Push over the origins of Ala-ud-Din Bahman Shah as started on his page. You can see his edits were reverted by me and other editors while doing so, and is adding the same thing without it being sourced (and pasting it on top of the already other sources) that state his origins before the edit. @Johnuniq, and yes I mean indefinite semi-protection. Noorullah (talk) 06:17, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Noorullah21: Sorry but explanations have to be presented properly. When there is a dispute, it is obvious that someone will believe another person is "disruptively editing" and reverting "numerous other editors". Don't mention that. An explanation has to show an example of changed text and say why it was wrong or inappropriate. The "why" should be understandable to someone like me without any topic knowledge. Whether the IP was reverted is not relevant. For example, a recent IP edit was diff. Why is changing "Zafar Khan" to "Hassan Gangu" wrong? What is the significance of changing "Afghan Pashtun" to "Punjabi Arain"? The reference was changed to "|Title=Bahman Shah |publisher=S.A.Q Hussaini |year=1960 |isbn=9780521563215 |edition=Vol 60 |pages=60". The isbn was unchanged and therefore very likely incorrect. What about the title, publisher, volume and page? Is there such a document? Johnuniq (talk) 07:29, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Johnuniq Yes, well the content here that is being inappropriately changed is the origins. The IP user changes the ethnic origin of Zafar Khan from "Afghan Pashtun" to "Punjabi Arain". This user did this on the page of Ala-ud-Din Bahman Shah numerous times without adding a source as shown here in these diffs: [9], [10], and [11]. Each of these edits were reverted. The latest edit of the user was on the page of the Bahmani Sultanate itself where he repeated it as you showed in your diff example. I am also not sure of what document/source they are attempting to reference. Despite being reverted by me and other editors, the user persistently continued to push their edit on the Ala-ud-Din Bahman Shah without regard and didn't add a source.
- @Johnuniq Noorullah (talk) 08:19, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
Origin
I thought it would be nice to start up the talk page and begin to discuss it out. @[[User:Mydust|Mydust]
I see your concern with is that some of the sources could be unreliable, and I see some of the ones you pointed out with Everett. But that is ignoring the others. Ruthermund and Kulke, which are both historians, state this: on page 181 of: A History of India.
" The Bahmani sultanate of the Deccan Soon after Muhammad Tughluq left Daulatabad, the city was conquered by Zafar Khan, a Turkish or Afghan officer of unknown descent, had earlier participated in a mutiny of troops in Gujarat."
Kerr gordon says this in his A Short History of India: From the Earliest Civilisations to Today's Economic Powerhouse.
In the early fourteenth century, the Muslim Bahmani kingdom of the Deccan emerged following Alauddin's conquest of the south. Zafar Khan, an Afghan general and governor appointed by Sultan Muhammad bin Tughluq, was victorious against the troops of the Delhi Sultanate, establishing the Bahmani kingdom with its capital at Ahsanabad (modern-day Gulbarga).
Historian Fereshta also calls them Afghan per Indo-Islamic society: 14th - 15th centuries. on page 160. Noorullah (talk) 21:46, 16 July 2023 (UTC)