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Template:VA Template:Outline of knowledge coverage
Australia is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on August 16, 2005. | ||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||
Current status: Featured article |
This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Template loop detected: Talk:Australia/Links
Expression
I recently attempted to change
Aussie is common colloquially, as an adjective and noun for "Australian"
to
Aussie is a common colloquialism for the adjective and noun "Australian"
but was reverted by AussieLegend with "Previous version was correct". Other opinions would be welcome. Anthony (talk) 13:20, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Whilst I couldn't say the original version is grammatically incorrect, I believe that Anthony's version is better phrased. Cheers, AusTerrapin (talk) 00:28, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
- Anthony's version is a cold, clinical analysis of the relationship between the words "Aussie" and "Australian" which is appropriate in a dictionary, but Wikipedia is not a dictionary. The current version is less clinical and more accurately represents how "Aussie" relates to "Australian", which is a more encyclopaedic treatment. --AussieLegend (talk) 01:13, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
- I think Anthony's version reads much better Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:46, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
I made the change per above discussion. [1] Anthony (talk) 20:02, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
- I still feel that a cold, clinical analysis of a word is not what is needed here. As I said, this is an encyclopaedia, not a dictionary. --AussieLegend (talk) 23:51, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
- I actually prefer "Aussie is a common colloquial term for "Australian"", because I don't really see the need to define or limit the parts of speech in such a simple statement. But if I'm not entitled to "write in" my candidate then Anthony's is marginally better, though I certainly wouldn't cross the street to argue about it :) Begoontalk 00:24, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
- Your suggestion makes more sense than either of the options. --AussieLegend (talk) 08:17, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Capital cities template
First, I know this is better suited to the talk page for the template itself, or Norfolk Island or Kingston, but it seems more likely I'll get a response here.
Am I the only one who feels Kingston is inappropriate in this list? I think it should contain the capitals from only the 6 states and 2 mainland territories. And even if more are appropriate, I'd argue that territories like Christmas Island are better suited, as they have less self governance to my knowledge. I just thought it was strange that Norfolk was put up amongst the other states and territories without the other external territories. 124.170.88.172 (talk) 10:18, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
- Question answered (or at least responded to) in my post on the actual discussion page for this. Should I delete this here then? (Sorry, wasn't signed in when I posted this). Anoldtreeok (talk) 07:31, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Australia's strength in Football
Would somebody please explain to Yellow Monkey that Australia's FIFA rankings of 20 and 14 are more significant than of that the national cricket team (for instance) which only competes against 7 nations (and one combination) most of which are at best economical "developing" and most are emerging. Please stop him reverting my edits out of hand especially when he is a cricket fanatic and will not accept that it is not a significant sport internationally - at least not on the same scale as football or even rugby. Silent Billy (talk) 13:26, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
- Haven't been watching the reverts, but I would suggest that you too are taking a confrontational approach in wanting to call your favourite sport football in a country where it doesn't go by that name among the general public. Football can mean any of four codes in Australia, and soccer is NOT the most popular. Maybe a bit of give and take is needed. HiLo48 (talk) 21:48, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
- Even if Soccer may be bigger world wide, I'd still say Cricket is much much more significant in Australia than Soccer. Anoldtreeok (talk) 07:35, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
- And Aussie rules/AFL, a game played only in this country, is more significant within Australia than either. :) Orderinchaos 10:52, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Fair dinkum you blokes are living in the 20th century. Australia's national football teams are ranked in the top 20 of ranked nations. That is they are "stronger" tan the very great majority of countries that participate in international competitions which is in both case greater than 120. The women's team are currently Asian champions. Cricket (Test) is played by just 10 participants most of which are either emerging economies, have minuscule populations, are not even nations or a combination of all three. If a first world country like Australia can't be "strong" against such sides then something would be very wrong. Likewise the other listed sports where Australia is supposedly "strong". In particular international RL is a joke as it has been since the 1970s. It is noticeable that sports where Australia used to be "strong" like golf and tennis are carefully excluded. As for cricket when the likes of Lara opine that the sport is dying and press reports in January this year suggested that CA was fudging attendance figures. The participation rates given by CA seem to be questionable too given that they include Kanga cricket etc. Silent Billy (talk) 15:00, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
- I must admit to not really being into football but I didn't know we had national football teams with international rankings. I know we have one in soccer, the Associationfootballoos or something like that. Oh no, that's right, they're called the Socceroos, because in Australia the game is most widely known as soccer, not association football. It's just as well, because "real" football (by Australian standards) is far more popular than soccer, no matter how much the association football fans, who can become quite rabid in their support of the game, wish it weren't. --AussieLegend (talk) 15:33, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
- Fair enough, soccer (not football, hence socceroos) is much more important internationally then real aussie footy, it is not as important in Australia. Sure Australians have mentioned it alot lately, but that's because we made it to the world cup, and were once again unjustly treated by the refs :( But either way, don't attack other sports to try and raise yours (or other countries for that matter). Chipmunkdavis (talk) 22:18, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
- I don't intend denigrate other sports or countries but it is true to say that it is easier for a nation with a developed economy to dominate a sport where there are few other competitive national teams and where those teams are from countries with less developed economies and/or small populations. Also note that the term "Socceroos" is in fact a nickname, almost a hypocorism, and may be regarded a clever play on the last syllable of the common name given to many marsupials and the colloquialism "soccer". A number of Australia national teams have nicknames derived from the names commonly applied to marsupials eg the "Kangaroos:, the "Wallabies", the "Koalas" and the "Wallaroos". The name was made up by a journalist and used in his reports on an international tour made by the Australian national association football team in the 1960s to describe the team in a shorthand way in his match reports. Thus it is not a name made up by marketing people and has the stood the test of time and is more or less instantly recognisable in much the same way as "All Blacks" and "Springboks" are although it is obviously much less venerable and probably without the the same kudos. I can't quite see the issue with describing association football as "football" where the context is clear.Silent Billy (talk) 08:10, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
- There is no issue at all with describing association football as "football" where the context is clear. That happens often in articles where the context is European, African or South American. But if the article has anything to with Australia or North America, clarification is necessary. As for the name Socceroos, the marketing people at FFA seem quite happy for it to remain in use. It is a very well known and totally unambiguous name for the team HiLo48 (talk) 08:37, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
- More than 10 countries play cricket, except some of them are excluded on grounds of competency from playing in Test cricket, same as the World Cup finals. If football was the same then the Pacific Islands, N Korea, Saudi etc would not be playing Test football either. Bangladesh is closer to winning the cricket world cup than Australia is to winning the football world cup. Two Bangladesh players would be picked in squads of all the other major countries. No Australian would get selected in a Brazil or Germany squad. SB, your belief that because a person likes something, they must regard is as the best and disrespect everything else is nonsense, else everyone would only barrack for the superpower teams. The listing is based on consistency success in the last 20 years, not four years, as otherwise things such as diving, aerial skiing, kayaking, and gymnastics would get in. Australia's ladies' gymnastics team has been coming in the top 10 and top 5 on occasions. Australia has been undefeated in 29 consec WC cricket matches, 28 wins. Obviously the teams are not the standard as Germany or the Netherlands, but at least half were not minnow teams; in football Australia hasn't even done that in Asian matches (JPN and Korea are the only competent teams) and made heavy work of Arab minnows, even losing to Iraq and Kuwait twice. In any case, we went through this last year and the Socceroos haven't made progress since then, so it's pointless YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 01:03, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- There is no issue at all with describing association football as "football" where the context is clear. That happens often in articles where the context is European, African or South American. But if the article has anything to with Australia or North America, clarification is necessary. As for the name Socceroos, the marketing people at FFA seem quite happy for it to remain in use. It is a very well known and totally unambiguous name for the team HiLo48 (talk) 08:37, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
- Australia has beaten Japan twice and drawn twice in competitive matches in recent years so I guess that makes Japan a minnow too. Australia has also beaten England and beaten and drawn with the Netherlands in what you regard as an appropriate time frame - although these were friendlies. You should really recuse yourself from this matter - you are apparently someone who derives an income from writing about cricket and therefore it is in your interest to promote it. I see that Australia's much vaunted record in the now more or less moribund OD version of cricket includes wins against the powerhouses of Netherlands, Scotland and Ireland plus sundry teams from economically distressed and war torn areas. Your statement In any case, we went through this last year and the Socceroos haven't made progress since then, so it's pointless smacks of the height of arrogance. Since when has it been not allowed to re-visit such matters here. Are you saying because you have made your mind up that that's the end of the matter? Silent Billy (talk) 05:11, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
I suspect the problem here is caused by the fact that the article tries to list what sports Australia is strong in. Why must the article restrict itself to listing what Australia is good at? Soccer is an immensely popular world sport, and it doesn't seem unreasonable for this article to contain a sentence on Australia's performance in it, whether it be good, bad or indifferent. This is true for all of the most popular world sports.
I propose we replace the commentary on what sports Australia is good at, with commentary on how Australia performs in the most popular world sports. I think such a change would remove the subjectivity on which this dispute is based, would be more informative to the reader, and no less concise.
Hesperian 02:09, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- So would we make comments on how many Australians speak Arabic, Chinese, Spanish etc, and how many can read/write as opposed to it. If things are mentioned because the world likes it regardless of its status in a given country, one would stick things in every Islamic country's page about how western pop is not allowed etc etc YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:27, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Agree with Hesperian that this could be a more profitable way of looking at the issue. There would also be nothing to prevent an addendum to the section to mention Sports particularly popular in Australia. Incidentally, population considered, there is nothing at all shabby about a top 20 soccer ranking and a narrow exit from the group stage of the World Cup. My last comment is added with the perspective that I am English, and an Australian resident. Begoontalk 02:19, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Two distinct aspects of sport need to be covered. The major international sports at which Australia is highly ranked are important, but also important are the sports in which a lot of Australians participate or watch. Obviously Australian football is hugely popular outside NSW and Qld, because it involves a lot of the population, so it should be mentioned because of its cultural impact, but it would not crack a mention if only international success was counted. HiLo48 (talk) 02:28, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, that was the point I was trying to make. Because the article is supposed to be for an international audience, discuss Australia in relation to popular International sports first - then go on to discuss other sports particularly popular in Australia. Obviously, there is some overlap, but as a basic structural approach it makes sense. Begoontalk 02:36, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- If that happens you end up with a situation where baseball, track and field, ice hockey will need big chunks, and gymnastics has more serious competition than most as well, probably kayaking, wrestling (popular in E Europe) etc and we'll be flooded YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:27, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Only if no common sense is applied. We're talking about a basic structure, not a mandatory list. You've chosen lots of "reductio ad absurdum" examples to make your point, which is fair enough, but nobody suggested anything like that. All that was said was - start with a discussion of how Australia performs in popular World sports (maybe "where the World sport can, with common sense, be viewed as relevant to Australia" should have been added.) - then go on to discuss other sports of particular significance to Australia itself. It was an idea to give some shape and context, and as such it's a good idea IMO. Begoontalk 03:48, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- If that happens you end up with a situation where baseball, track and field, ice hockey will need big chunks, and gymnastics has more serious competition than most as well, probably kayaking, wrestling (popular in E Europe) etc and we'll be flooded YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:27, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Agree with Hesperian and Begoon on this, noting that cricket is an international sport. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:53, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, that was the point I was trying to make. Because the article is supposed to be for an international audience, discuss Australia in relation to popular International sports first - then go on to discuss other sports particularly popular in Australia. Obviously, there is some overlap, but as a basic structural approach it makes sense. Begoontalk 02:36, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- YM for your information at least two current Australian national association football team members (in both the men's and women's teams) would be in line to be considered for most other national sides (including Brazil) and probably get selected some of the time. The problem here is that an editor has a proprietorial view of the article's content and refuses to countenance any other view setting up his own very convenient straw standard to use to "decide" what sport is to be included and what isn't. The fact is that Australia is stronger than the vast majority of national association football teams and this fact should be imparted to the readers of the article who might otherwise be left with the impression that Australia only plays a few sports at a first class level such sports being what most of the world's population would regard as idiosyncratic at best. Silent Billy (talk) 06:23, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Australia is stronger than the "vast majority" of countries in almost every sport, as you only have to be 20th to be ahead of 90% of them. So which Australians would make the 11+3 subs of Spain, Brazil, Netherlands etc? Cahill better than Fabregas (a sub?) Lol YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- You really are being silly YM. The question of whether one player or another would be good enough to make another nation's team is entirely subjective. In any event a national team does not always inculde the "best" players available for selection - there are other factors that come into play as national cricket team selections amply demonstrate. In cricket and most of the other sports you suggest Australia is "strong" in are only played by a few countries at first class level and for most readers of this article are likely an irrelevancy. Let's try to make the article relevant and tell people about Australia's strength in a sport that is followed by more people than all the "strong" sports combined. Silent Billy (talk) 04:48, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- Australia is stronger than the "vast majority" of countries in almost every sport, as you only have to be 20th to be ahead of 90% of them. So which Australians would make the 11+3 subs of Spain, Brazil, Netherlands etc? Cahill better than Fabregas (a sub?) Lol YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- YM for your information at least two current Australian national association football team members (in both the men's and women's teams) would be in line to be considered for most other national sides (including Brazil) and probably get selected some of the time. The problem here is that an editor has a proprietorial view of the article's content and refuses to countenance any other view setting up his own very convenient straw standard to use to "decide" what sport is to be included and what isn't. The fact is that Australia is stronger than the vast majority of national association football teams and this fact should be imparted to the readers of the article who might otherwise be left with the impression that Australia only plays a few sports at a first class level such sports being what most of the world's population would regard as idiosyncratic at best. Silent Billy (talk) 06:23, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
Billy - there should be something in the article about soccer, but what you are trying to add is far too much. Just a simple mention of the rankings is enough. HiLo48 (talk) 06:33, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- I added the detail because YM originally said that there was nothing verifiable in the statement that Australia's national association football teams are "strong". Silent Billy (talk) 06:57, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
How is Socceroos have more space than even swimming any sort of argument for the non-inclusion of the information? If we are really worried about the size of the article then lets move everything off to Sport in Australia. Silent Billy (talk) 07:05, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- A quick summary should be fine for soccer I think. Slightly changed Billy's input (without citation for now)
- "Australia's national soccer teams have in recent years increased in their international standing; the men's national team has been officially ranked in the top 30 nations since June 2009, whilst the women's national team has been ranked in the top 20 since 2003." Chipmunkdavis (talk) 07:09, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- That seems to have the basic rankings and state that it is recent compared to other sports Chipmunkdavis (talk) 07:20, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Unless there is some hugely cogent argument aginst I will add that sentence in the near future. Silent Billy (talk) 23:14, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
Foreign relations and military - Too high?
It just seems to me that for an Australia article the "Foreign relations and military" section is too high up, and comes before information that seems more relevant to Australia in general. The only reason I can see why it would be that far up is because it does to some degree make sense for it to be after the sections on politics, but I still would say other sections like geography and climate would make more sense to come before Foreign relations and military.
I quickly looked through the history and discussion archives for this article and I couldn't find anyone bringing this up, so sorry if it has been before. It just doesn't seem right to me. Anoldtreeok (talk) 07:05, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think it's up there because Australia is geopolitically important, and as you said because it is after politics. Furthermore, this seems to be the convention across country articles. I'm sure there's a country template somewhere that is used for such articles, but I don't know where it is. I'm sure if more editors agree with you it could be changed though, as one could argue that as it covers a continent (ooh debate right there) that its climate and geography are more important. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 07:12, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- No one else has weighed in, so I guess we can assume it was only me who felt that this wasn't right. No point worrying about it then.Anoldtreeok (talk) 02:48, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Linkrot not Cultural Institutions
From External links
suggest:
- The Culture Portal
--wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 07:13, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
Edit request from 202.81.69.153, 5 August 2010
{{editsemiprotected}} Please amend the reference that the Aborigines have inhabited Australia for 40,0000 years.
The Aborigines refer to the time before Europeans as 'the dreamtime'. Thank you.
202.81.69.153 (talk) 10:57, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
Not done: The article already links to: Indigenous_Australians, and the information you requested to add is already suitably included at Indigenous_Australians#Belief_systems. Thanks Begoontalk 11:10, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
"Association football (soccer)" rather than just "soccer"
Could I please have some help here. I have changed the word "soccer" to "Association football (soccer)" but "Yellow Monkey" has once again reverted and is now accusing me of being a troll. "Association football" is the proper description of the game and the use of "soccer" is as hurtful as using, I dunno, "Paddy" to describe a person of Irish origin. There is no evidence that the term "soccer" is used any more commonly to describe the game in Australia - certainly outside of Victoria and Tasmania. Is there some sort of adjudication process we can put this up to? Silent Billy (talk) 00:36, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
In the northern states of Australia Aussie Rules football is referred to as 'AFL', should we thus use AFL in reference to the sport on all wikipadia pages? No. The recognised name of the code is association football, and that that is what it should be referred to on all wikipedia pages regardless of local colloqualisms in which specific codes are referred to solely as football. If people do not know what association football is, then they need to educate themselves. An encyclopedia is the means to achieve that. Calling the sport 'soccer' in articles is akin to referring to Kevin Rudd as 'KRUDD' in any article relating to him. It is offensive because he deserves to be recongised officially by his proper name. "Yellow Monkey" needs to drop the ignorant agenda. Aussie sportsman (talk) 01:22, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- Billy, good on you for arguing your case here once again. The list used here includes horse racing, surfing, soccer, and motor racing. This is adequate. There's also an internal link to Australian rules football which is esp. helpful for overseas readers. The usage on the Sports_in_Australia page is "soccer (Association_football)". You might note that the Sports_in_Australia page includes links to many codes, but they are not needed here.
- You should be encouraged for stimulating debate; now we should wait for a consensus. wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 01:43, 7 August 2010 (UTC) 01:39, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- Billy, good on you for arguing your case here once again. The list used here includes horse racing, surfing, soccer, and motor racing. This is adequate. There's also an internal link to Australian rules football which is esp. helpful for overseas readers. The usage on the Sports_in_Australia page is "soccer (Association_football)". You might note that the Sports_in_Australia page includes links to many codes, but they are not needed here.
- That is inadequate. Association football is one of the most (if not the most) popular participation sports in the country and deserves a much more significant mention in this article then it currently receives. One unlinked, incorrect mention for such a significant sport is pathetic. Australian Rules for example is linked multiple times..yet it is the only sport in the lower section which is linked. I would not be happy with [[Association football|soccer]] soccer .. that is akin to listing aussie rules as [[australian rules football|AFL] [[australian rules football|AFL]. Association football is the politically correct name for the sport and that is how it should be written...include (soccer) for the sake of the simple folk but the sport is association football Aussie sportsman (talk) 01:55, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
As it says when editing this page, this page is in Australian English. The Australian English term is soccer. We have always said soccer, it is what is used in the maquarie dictionary. Football is British english, not Australian English, this page must be kept faithful to Australian English, its an article on Australia, not Britain. I'm sure most people will understand soccer, because its also the american english term. this article is in english, and 3/4 of the english speaking as a 1st language people in the world are from the US, and then if you add australian english which also uses soccer, youve got the vast majority of the eng speaking world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saruman-the-white (talk • contribs) 02:27, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- Where is there any evidence that this term is "Australian English" the usage is limited to those who are anti-Association football. It is "football" everywhere else. Silent Billy (talk) 02:37, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- It is football only in the UK, and maybe Ireland. In Australia the sport is called soccer, I didn't even know the term Association football before I found in on wikipedia, and I'm sure barely anyone in Australia does. It's only the 4th most popular sport "football" sport in Australia. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 02:56, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- Where is there any evidence that this term is "Australian English" the usage is limited to those who are anti-Association football. It is "football" everywhere else. Silent Billy (talk) 02:37, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- Good on you Chips for admitting your former ignorance. But the fact that you apparently were so poorly read that you had not heard of the term "association football" is not a argument for the use of the term "soccer" in the article. Where is there evidence for your proposition that the game is known as "football" only in two countries? Silent Billy (talk) 03:04, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- And Fox use "AFL" for ' rules and I and many people in NSW call Aussie Rules "kick 'n' giggle" or liken it "eight year olds playing rugby union" but that doesn;t mean we should use those terms here. Back up your suppositions with verifiable evidence. Silent Billy (talk) 03:16, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- Per WP:BURDEN it is up to you Billy to prove that association football or football is commonly used in Australia. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 03:18, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- Well I do know (as I am sure that you do) that "Association football" is not as commonly used to refer to the code as "football" is. The Roar and SMH refer to "Association football" as "football" for starters. Silent Billy (talk) 03:37, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- Per WP:BURDEN it is up to you Billy to prove that association football or football is commonly used in Australia. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 03:18, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- And Fox use "AFL" for ' rules and I and many people in NSW call Aussie Rules "kick 'n' giggle" or liken it "eight year olds playing rugby union" but that doesn;t mean we should use those terms here. Back up your suppositions with verifiable evidence. Silent Billy (talk) 03:16, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- SIlent Billy - How on earth can calling the game soccer be hurtful. Virtually every Victorian, soccer fans or not, is comfortable with it. I know lots of quite rabid enthusiasts (I call them my friends!) who call it soccer. Why does is hurt you? The name in Victoria is not going to change any time soon. It can't. The name football has a distinct other purpose. Oh, and I suspect it's wider than Vic and Tas. It would also include SA, WA and NT. I will add, however, that I'm pretty well aware that the convention on Wikipedia is to call the game Association football wherever there is the possibility of confusion, such as in the USA and Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 07:02, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- Hilo48 - a lot of Australians don't live in Victoria and have no wish to either. Silent Billy (talk) 11:50, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Talk about Déjà vu. I'm sure we've been over this whole soccer thing before.
- "the use of "soccer" is as hurtful as" - Don't you think you're being overly dramatic here? How is using the common name for the game hirtful. Perhaps you should read the association football article which states in its opening sentence, "Association football, commonly known as football or soccer".
- "the usage is limited to those who are anti-Association football." - I'm sorry, but this is complete and utter bullshit. I turned 50 in December and, as far back as I can remember, it has always been called soccer in Australia, even by the fans, hence the "Soccerroos" and not the "Association footballoos". It's only been in recent years, when the sport has apparently started to become more popular here that the term "association football" has come into any use outside of the most rabid fans. Soccer clubs have always been called "football" or "soccer" clubs, never "association football" clubs.
- The arguments you're using here really don't help give your arguments credibility. Getting so upset over the fact that soccer is the common name would be like me (an IT consultant) getting upset over many people calling the system unit of their PC a "hard drive". Just accept the truth and move on. --AussieLegend (talk) 07:25, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
sorry mate, you made your point very well without knowing it by saying "its football everywhere else". you are exactly right, its football everywhere else (except the usa) AND AUSTRALIA. its not the australian term, as used in the maquarie dictionary or by the vast majority of australians, you dug your own grave on this one mate, sorry. soccer it stays. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saruman-the-white (talk • contribs) 00:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- The argument about soccer v football from a linguistic perspective is of course easy. Yes in some countries, we need addendums to distinguish between different types of football. But this isn't the heart of the matter. The question is one of dominance.
The eggball aficionados are suggesting 'soccer' is fine as a differentiator on the assumption that something else in its vicinity, will be called "football". They perpetuates the key semantic property of 'soccer' - it unalterable sense of "otherness". If he makes the argument that NOTHING should be called football and every code should have its own handle, then so be it, but as it stands, this isn't the case.
I'm amazed that of all things some here have used South Africa as a counter point. The word "soccer" was thrust upon the sport there by white men describing a black man's passion, or vice as many saw it. It contained none of the Edwardian values of Rugby Football, and therefore didn't deserve the word football. So much of the meaning behind "soccer" when South African's use it, is about otherness, of minority, of difference, of inferiority. Likewise, if an Irishman likes "Association football", he'll call it "football". If he hates it, or if he equates football with British imperialism and an affront to his sense of independence, he'll call it "soccer".
In the six letters of "soccer" is imbued a put down that can only be explained through an understanding of semantics, and putting it into historical context. When "soccer" is used by football supporters, it rolls unceremoniously off the tongue. But when used by its many detractors, it is punctuated and bulletted into our vernacular as a reminder that "there is only one true football in this town buddy, and it ain't your football."
"Soccer" is a dirty word. It is used to symbolise the past problems of the sport in Australia. When "soccer" was the word commonly used in Australia by the code itself it was a game for ", sheilas wogs and poofters", today that has changed - "football" is the right term to use.
The fallaciousness of the argument put by the Victorians above that their usage should be adopted by the whole of Australia is laughably self evident.
I notice Bidgee is too weak to cut and paste the MD entry here. That must be because it does not actually support his argument (you're not the only one with a sub maaaaaaaaaate) Silent Billy (talk) 01:14, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
An example of how the word "soccer" has evolved and is is used as vindictive insult in Victoria appears on the Melbourne tabloid website: ... most Aussies still see Soccer as the backward foreign ehtnicgame. Silent Billy (talk) 01:24, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- "I notice Bidgee is too weak to cut and paste the MD entry here." A rather lame personal attack but no I'm not weak since adding copyrighted content will get myself blocked, I suggest you get the MD or get an account online. Bidgee (talk) 06:37, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Billy - I find it hurtful when paranoid bullies completely ignore my seriously thought out contributions. So I will post again, hoping you will pay some attention this time.
- How on earth can calling the game soccer be hurtful. Virtually every Victorian, soccer fans or not, is comfortable with it. I know lots of quite rabid enthusiasts (I call them my friends!) who call it soccer. Why does is hurt you? The name in Victoria is not going to change any time soon. It can't. The name football has a distinct other purpose. Oh, and I suspect it's wider than Vic and Tas. It would also include SA, WA and NT. I will add, however, that I'm pretty well aware that the convention on Wikipedia is to call the game Association football wherever there is the possibility of confusion, such as in the USA and Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 01:38, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- "Virtually every Victorian, soccer fans or not, is comfortable with it." - have you got a verifiable source for that? It's a ridiculous thing to claim. Silent Billy (talk) 01:45, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Of course I don't have a verifiable source for what I said Billy, apart from living here for 60+ years. I don't need a source. I spoke common sense. I spoke from experience. If you still want to fight over this, I think YOU need a verifiable source that tells us some Victorians ARE hurt by the name soccer. Maybe you could start by checking with all the clubs called soccer clubs. Stop making such a big issue over this. I like soccer. I played it as a kid. The town I lived in had the state league champions one year. The local soccer club. We were all very proud. It just makes no sense to call it football here. So let's go with Association football when discussing Australia. (I'm quite happy with the name Australian football for the local code too. It would be dumb to call it simply football.) We have four professional sports called football here, and at least two others played at amateur level. No-one owns the name football in Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 02:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- "The eggball aficionados" - I'm afraid your non-NPOV slip is showing. Have you already forgotten "the use of "soccer" is as hurtful as" and "the usage is limited to those who are anti-Association football"? "Eggball" isn't a recognised nickname for any sport that I'm aware. Why should you expect others to use official names when you clearly can't do the same?
- "I'm amazed that of all things some here have used South Africa as a counter point. The word "soccer" was thrust upon the sport there by white men describing a black man's passion" - I'm not sure what South Africa has to do with anything. According to both Association football and Names for association football, the term soccer originated in England, first appearing in the 1880s as an Oxford "-er" abbreviation of the word "association".
- "bulletted into our vernacular as a reminder that "there is only one true football in this town buddy, and it ain't your football."" - "Our" vernacular? I assume you must be American.
- ""Soccer" is a dirty word." - In your opinion. Soccer is widely used throughout the world. From Association football: "Today the sport is known as football in English-speaking countries in which it is the most popular football code; where other codes are more popular, the sport is more commonly referred to as soccer." From Names for association football: "The term association football has never been widely used, although in England some clubs in rugby league strongholds adopted the suffix Association Football Club (AFC) to avoid confusion with the dominant sport in their area."
- "it was a game for ", sheilas wogs and poofters"," - When would that have been? Soccer has been popular in Australia for Australia as long as I can remember, although it has always been overshadowed by league. I've never heard it referred to in the derogatory manner that you've used, although I have occasionally heard it to as "wogball", mainly because it was primarily popular with immigrants from Europe.
- "I notice Bidgee is too weak to cut and paste the MD entry here." - Please, comment on content, not on the contributor. That sort of tone is uncivil. --AussieLegend (talk) 01:58, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Back on to topic, I think it should be called soccer in articles about australia, per WP:COMMONNAME. Also, the Australian team is called Socceroos, which says alot. I myself have no problem with calling it football, and I do sometimes, depending on the context (such as when watching the world cup). It's a great game, however, in Australia it is mainly known as soccer. So in the article we should leave it as such. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 02:36, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Sheilas, Wogs and Poofters, An Incomplete Biography of Johnny Warren & Soccer is a best-selling book by Johnny Warren, tracing the growth of soccer in Australia, especially in the post-WWII years. The title refers to alleged sexist, racist and homophobic attitudes towards football exhibited frequently by many Australians and especially the major city media in Australia through this period. A Google search for the term, without Warren's name finds 13,000 stand-alone references to the term. Mitch Ames (talk) 03:26, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Google hits don't mean much. Many of those hits refer specifically to the book, Put it in inverted commas and there are 8,350 hits. A search on my first attempt to be elected to parliament got 100,000 hits, without specifying the electorate got 157,000. --AussieLegend (talk) 03:53, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Sheilas, Wogs and Poofters, An Incomplete Biography of Johnny Warren & Soccer is a best-selling book by Johnny Warren, tracing the growth of soccer in Australia, especially in the post-WWII years. The title refers to alleged sexist, racist and homophobic attitudes towards football exhibited frequently by many Australians and especially the major city media in Australia through this period. A Google search for the term, without Warren's name finds 13,000 stand-alone references to the term. Mitch Ames (talk) 03:26, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Wow - what a waste of valuable collective editing time. And a generally uncivil one at that too. There must be at least 30 posts in this section. Would it not be better for editors to spend their (presumably limited) editing time doing something more constructive? --Merbabu (talk) 07:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Just had a look at Silent Billy's Talk page. He has already been repeatedly warned for disruptive editing around the word soccer. While he clearly generally makes a valuable contribution to Wikipedia, his unrealistic obsession with eliminating that word from Australian usage is clearly on display. I don't think we have a tool in Wikipedia to ban people from using a particular word in their edits. It would avoid these troll discussions if we could. HiLo48 (talk) 07:56, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- If you really had looked at my Talk page you would have seen that the one so-called "warning" was from Bidgee who then went off crying to an admin Kuru who saw that I was not being "disruptive" but possibly in danger of breaking the 3RR, And what was the edit that Bidgee found so horrendous - a citation required tag on some nonsense added to a disambig page. Fortunately another Admin saw that I wasn;t doing anything wrong and sorted the issue out with an intelligent edit. When Bidgee whined about the edit the Admin had this to say "You've reported the editor to AIV because of vandalism at Soccer (disambiguation). As an admin, I've looked there and found no base for issuing level-4 warning right away and reporting the editor to AIV. As an editor, I believe the previous description of soccer there was not adequate." and "We may not blame an editor for requesting sources, if the fact is indeed obvious, we should be able to provide those sources." So please dear HiLo48 amend your errr... misleading statement. Silent Billy (talk) 11:43, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
NSW foundation date
Formally, it happened on 7 February 1788, not on 26 January 1788. See Governor of New South Wales: "Captain Arthur Phillip assumed office as Governor of New South Wales on 7 February 1788, when the Colony of New South Wales, the first British settlement in Australia, was formally founded".
I guess we still have to mention 26 January 1788, being the significant date as far as the history of the (small c) colony is concerned, but we must not mislead readers about the true facts. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 02:02, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Expression
I recently attempted to change
Aussie is common colloquially, as an adjective and noun for "Australian"
to
Aussie is a common colloquialism for the adjective and noun "Australian"
but was reverted by AussieLegend with "Previous version was correct". Other opinions would be welcome. Anthony (talk) 13:20, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Whilst I couldn't say the original version is grammatically incorrect, I believe that Anthony's version is better phrased. Cheers, AusTerrapin (talk) 00:28, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
- Anthony's version is a cold, clinical analysis of the relationship between the words "Aussie" and "Australian" which is appropriate in a dictionary, but Wikipedia is not a dictionary. The current version is less clinical and more accurately represents how "Aussie" relates to "Australian", which is a more encyclopaedic treatment. --AussieLegend (talk) 01:13, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
- I think Anthony's version reads much better Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:46, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
I made the change per above discussion. [2] Anthony (talk) 20:02, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
- I still feel that a cold, clinical analysis of a word is not what is needed here. As I said, this is an encyclopaedia, not a dictionary. --AussieLegend (talk) 23:51, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
- I actually prefer "Aussie is a common colloquial term for "Australian"", because I don't really see the need to define or limit the parts of speech in such a simple statement. But if I'm not entitled to "write in" my candidate then Anthony's is marginally better, though I certainly wouldn't cross the street to argue about it :) Begoontalk 00:24, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
- Your suggestion makes more sense than either of the options. --AussieLegend (talk) 08:17, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Capital cities template
First, I know this is better suited to the talk page for the template itself, or Norfolk Island or Kingston, but it seems more likely I'll get a response here.
Am I the only one who feels Kingston is inappropriate in this list? I think it should contain the capitals from only the 6 states and 2 mainland territories. And even if more are appropriate, I'd argue that territories like Christmas Island are better suited, as they have less self governance to my knowledge. I just thought it was strange that Norfolk was put up amongst the other states and territories without the other external territories. 124.170.88.172 (talk) 10:18, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
- Question answered (or at least responded to) in my post on the actual discussion page for this. Should I delete this here then? (Sorry, wasn't signed in when I posted this). Anoldtreeok (talk) 07:31, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Australia's strength in Football
Would somebody please explain to Yellow Monkey that Australia's FIFA rankings of 20 and 14 are more significant than of that the national cricket team (for instance) which only competes against 7 nations (and one combination) most of which are at best economical "developing" and most are emerging. Please stop him reverting my edits out of hand especially when he is a cricket fanatic and will not accept that it is not a significant sport internationally - at least not on the same scale as football or even rugby. Silent Billy (talk) 13:26, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
- Haven't been watching the reverts, but I would suggest that you too are taking a confrontational approach in wanting to call your favourite sport football in a country where it doesn't go by that name among the general public. Football can mean any of four codes in Australia, and soccer is NOT the most popular. Maybe a bit of give and take is needed. HiLo48 (talk) 21:48, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
- Even if Soccer may be bigger world wide, I'd still say Cricket is much much more significant in Australia than Soccer. Anoldtreeok (talk) 07:35, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
- And Aussie rules/AFL, a game played only in this country, is more significant within Australia than either. :) Orderinchaos 10:52, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Fair dinkum you blokes are living in the 20th century. Australia's national football teams are ranked in the top 20 of ranked nations. That is they are "stronger" tan the very great majority of countries that participate in international competitions which is in both case greater than 120. The women's team are currently Asian champions. Cricket (Test) is played by just 10 participants most of which are either emerging economies, have minuscule populations, are not even nations or a combination of all three. If a first world country like Australia can't be "strong" against such sides then something would be very wrong. Likewise the other listed sports where Australia is supposedly "strong". In particular international RL is a joke as it has been since the 1970s. It is noticeable that sports where Australia used to be "strong" like golf and tennis are carefully excluded. As for cricket when the likes of Lara opine that the sport is dying and press reports in January this year suggested that CA was fudging attendance figures. The participation rates given by CA seem to be questionable too given that they include Kanga cricket etc. Silent Billy (talk) 15:00, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
- I must admit to not really being into football but I didn't know we had national football teams with international rankings. I know we have one in soccer, the Associationfootballoos or something like that. Oh no, that's right, they're called the Socceroos, because in Australia the game is most widely known as soccer, not association football. It's just as well, because "real" football (by Australian standards) is far more popular than soccer, no matter how much the association football fans, who can become quite rabid in their support of the game, wish it weren't. --AussieLegend (talk) 15:33, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
- Fair enough, soccer (not football, hence socceroos) is much more important internationally then real aussie footy, it is not as important in Australia. Sure Australians have mentioned it alot lately, but that's because we made it to the world cup, and were once again unjustly treated by the refs :( But either way, don't attack other sports to try and raise yours (or other countries for that matter). Chipmunkdavis (talk) 22:18, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
- I don't intend denigrate other sports or countries but it is true to say that it is easier for a nation with a developed economy to dominate a sport where there are few other competitive national teams and where those teams are from countries with less developed economies and/or small populations. Also note that the term "Socceroos" is in fact a nickname, almost a hypocorism, and may be regarded a clever play on the last syllable of the common name given to many marsupials and the colloquialism "soccer". A number of Australia national teams have nicknames derived from the names commonly applied to marsupials eg the "Kangaroos:, the "Wallabies", the "Koalas" and the "Wallaroos". The name was made up by a journalist and used in his reports on an international tour made by the Australian national association football team in the 1960s to describe the team in a shorthand way in his match reports. Thus it is not a name made up by marketing people and has the stood the test of time and is more or less instantly recognisable in much the same way as "All Blacks" and "Springboks" are although it is obviously much less venerable and probably without the the same kudos. I can't quite see the issue with describing association football as "football" where the context is clear.Silent Billy (talk) 08:10, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
- There is no issue at all with describing association football as "football" where the context is clear. That happens often in articles where the context is European, African or South American. But if the article has anything to with Australia or North America, clarification is necessary. As for the name Socceroos, the marketing people at FFA seem quite happy for it to remain in use. It is a very well known and totally unambiguous name for the team HiLo48 (talk) 08:37, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
- More than 10 countries play cricket, except some of them are excluded on grounds of competency from playing in Test cricket, same as the World Cup finals. If football was the same then the Pacific Islands, N Korea, Saudi etc would not be playing Test football either. Bangladesh is closer to winning the cricket world cup than Australia is to winning the football world cup. Two Bangladesh players would be picked in squads of all the other major countries. No Australian would get selected in a Brazil or Germany squad. SB, your belief that because a person likes something, they must regard is as the best and disrespect everything else is nonsense, else everyone would only barrack for the superpower teams. The listing is based on consistency success in the last 20 years, not four years, as otherwise things such as diving, aerial skiing, kayaking, and gymnastics would get in. Australia's ladies' gymnastics team has been coming in the top 10 and top 5 on occasions. Australia has been undefeated in 29 consec WC cricket matches, 28 wins. Obviously the teams are not the standard as Germany or the Netherlands, but at least half were not minnow teams; in football Australia hasn't even done that in Asian matches (JPN and Korea are the only competent teams) and made heavy work of Arab minnows, even losing to Iraq and Kuwait twice. In any case, we went through this last year and the Socceroos haven't made progress since then, so it's pointless YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 01:03, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- There is no issue at all with describing association football as "football" where the context is clear. That happens often in articles where the context is European, African or South American. But if the article has anything to with Australia or North America, clarification is necessary. As for the name Socceroos, the marketing people at FFA seem quite happy for it to remain in use. It is a very well known and totally unambiguous name for the team HiLo48 (talk) 08:37, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
- Australia has beaten Japan twice and drawn twice in competitive matches in recent years so I guess that makes Japan a minnow too. Australia has also beaten England and beaten and drawn with the Netherlands in what you regard as an appropriate time frame - although these were friendlies. You should really recuse yourself from this matter - you are apparently someone who derives an income from writing about cricket and therefore it is in your interest to promote it. I see that Australia's much vaunted record in the now more or less moribund OD version of cricket includes wins against the powerhouses of Netherlands, Scotland and Ireland plus sundry teams from economically distressed and war torn areas. Your statement In any case, we went through this last year and the Socceroos haven't made progress since then, so it's pointless smacks of the height of arrogance. Since when has it been not allowed to re-visit such matters here. Are you saying because you have made your mind up that that's the end of the matter? Silent Billy (talk) 05:11, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
I suspect the problem here is caused by the fact that the article tries to list what sports Australia is strong in. Why must the article restrict itself to listing what Australia is good at? Soccer is an immensely popular world sport, and it doesn't seem unreasonable for this article to contain a sentence on Australia's performance in it, whether it be good, bad or indifferent. This is true for all of the most popular world sports.
I propose we replace the commentary on what sports Australia is good at, with commentary on how Australia performs in the most popular world sports. I think such a change would remove the subjectivity on which this dispute is based, would be more informative to the reader, and no less concise.
Hesperian 02:09, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- So would we make comments on how many Australians speak Arabic, Chinese, Spanish etc, and how many can read/write as opposed to it. If things are mentioned because the world likes it regardless of its status in a given country, one would stick things in every Islamic country's page about how western pop is not allowed etc etc YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:27, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Agree with Hesperian that this could be a more profitable way of looking at the issue. There would also be nothing to prevent an addendum to the section to mention Sports particularly popular in Australia. Incidentally, population considered, there is nothing at all shabby about a top 20 soccer ranking and a narrow exit from the group stage of the World Cup. My last comment is added with the perspective that I am English, and an Australian resident. Begoontalk 02:19, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Two distinct aspects of sport need to be covered. The major international sports at which Australia is highly ranked are important, but also important are the sports in which a lot of Australians participate or watch. Obviously Australian football is hugely popular outside NSW and Qld, because it involves a lot of the population, so it should be mentioned because of its cultural impact, but it would not crack a mention if only international success was counted. HiLo48 (talk) 02:28, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, that was the point I was trying to make. Because the article is supposed to be for an international audience, discuss Australia in relation to popular International sports first - then go on to discuss other sports particularly popular in Australia. Obviously, there is some overlap, but as a basic structural approach it makes sense. Begoontalk 02:36, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- If that happens you end up with a situation where baseball, track and field, ice hockey will need big chunks, and gymnastics has more serious competition than most as well, probably kayaking, wrestling (popular in E Europe) etc and we'll be flooded YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:27, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Only if no common sense is applied. We're talking about a basic structure, not a mandatory list. You've chosen lots of "reductio ad absurdum" examples to make your point, which is fair enough, but nobody suggested anything like that. All that was said was - start with a discussion of how Australia performs in popular World sports (maybe "where the World sport can, with common sense, be viewed as relevant to Australia" should have been added.) - then go on to discuss other sports of particular significance to Australia itself. It was an idea to give some shape and context, and as such it's a good idea IMO. Begoontalk 03:48, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- If that happens you end up with a situation where baseball, track and field, ice hockey will need big chunks, and gymnastics has more serious competition than most as well, probably kayaking, wrestling (popular in E Europe) etc and we'll be flooded YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:27, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Agree with Hesperian and Begoon on this, noting that cricket is an international sport. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:53, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, that was the point I was trying to make. Because the article is supposed to be for an international audience, discuss Australia in relation to popular International sports first - then go on to discuss other sports particularly popular in Australia. Obviously, there is some overlap, but as a basic structural approach it makes sense. Begoontalk 02:36, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- YM for your information at least two current Australian national association football team members (in both the men's and women's teams) would be in line to be considered for most other national sides (including Brazil) and probably get selected some of the time. The problem here is that an editor has a proprietorial view of the article's content and refuses to countenance any other view setting up his own very convenient straw standard to use to "decide" what sport is to be included and what isn't. The fact is that Australia is stronger than the vast majority of national association football teams and this fact should be imparted to the readers of the article who might otherwise be left with the impression that Australia only plays a few sports at a first class level such sports being what most of the world's population would regard as idiosyncratic at best. Silent Billy (talk) 06:23, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Australia is stronger than the "vast majority" of countries in almost every sport, as you only have to be 20th to be ahead of 90% of them. So which Australians would make the 11+3 subs of Spain, Brazil, Netherlands etc? Cahill better than Fabregas (a sub?) Lol YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- You really are being silly YM. The question of whether one player or another would be good enough to make another nation's team is entirely subjective. In any event a national team does not always inculde the "best" players available for selection - there are other factors that come into play as national cricket team selections amply demonstrate. In cricket and most of the other sports you suggest Australia is "strong" in are only played by a few countries at first class level and for most readers of this article are likely an irrelevancy. Let's try to make the article relevant and tell people about Australia's strength in a sport that is followed by more people than all the "strong" sports combined. Silent Billy (talk) 04:48, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- Australia is stronger than the "vast majority" of countries in almost every sport, as you only have to be 20th to be ahead of 90% of them. So which Australians would make the 11+3 subs of Spain, Brazil, Netherlands etc? Cahill better than Fabregas (a sub?) Lol YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- YM for your information at least two current Australian national association football team members (in both the men's and women's teams) would be in line to be considered for most other national sides (including Brazil) and probably get selected some of the time. The problem here is that an editor has a proprietorial view of the article's content and refuses to countenance any other view setting up his own very convenient straw standard to use to "decide" what sport is to be included and what isn't. The fact is that Australia is stronger than the vast majority of national association football teams and this fact should be imparted to the readers of the article who might otherwise be left with the impression that Australia only plays a few sports at a first class level such sports being what most of the world's population would regard as idiosyncratic at best. Silent Billy (talk) 06:23, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
Billy - there should be something in the article about soccer, but what you are trying to add is far too much. Just a simple mention of the rankings is enough. HiLo48 (talk) 06:33, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- I added the detail because YM originally said that there was nothing verifiable in the statement that Australia's national association football teams are "strong". Silent Billy (talk) 06:57, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
How is Socceroos have more space than even swimming any sort of argument for the non-inclusion of the information? If we are really worried about the size of the article then lets move everything off to Sport in Australia. Silent Billy (talk) 07:05, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- A quick summary should be fine for soccer I think. Slightly changed Billy's input (without citation for now)
- "Australia's national soccer teams have in recent years increased in their international standing; the men's national team has been officially ranked in the top 30 nations since June 2009, whilst the women's national team has been ranked in the top 20 since 2003." Chipmunkdavis (talk) 07:09, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- That seems to have the basic rankings and state that it is recent compared to other sports Chipmunkdavis (talk) 07:20, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Unless there is some hugely cogent argument aginst I will add that sentence in the near future. Silent Billy (talk) 23:14, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
Foreign relations and military - Too high?
It just seems to me that for an Australia article the "Foreign relations and military" section is too high up, and comes before information that seems more relevant to Australia in general. The only reason I can see why it would be that far up is because it does to some degree make sense for it to be after the sections on politics, but I still would say other sections like geography and climate would make more sense to come before Foreign relations and military.
I quickly looked through the history and discussion archives for this article and I couldn't find anyone bringing this up, so sorry if it has been before. It just doesn't seem right to me. Anoldtreeok (talk) 07:05, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think it's up there because Australia is geopolitically important, and as you said because it is after politics. Furthermore, this seems to be the convention across country articles. I'm sure there's a country template somewhere that is used for such articles, but I don't know where it is. I'm sure if more editors agree with you it could be changed though, as one could argue that as it covers a continent (ooh debate right there) that its climate and geography are more important. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 07:12, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- No one else has weighed in, so I guess we can assume it was only me who felt that this wasn't right. No point worrying about it then.Anoldtreeok (talk) 02:48, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Linkrot not Cultural Institutions
From External links
suggest:
- The Culture Portal
--wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 07:13, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
Edit request from 202.81.69.153, 5 August 2010
{{editsemiprotected}} Please amend the reference that the Aborigines have inhabited Australia for 40,0000 years.
The Aborigines refer to the time before Europeans as 'the dreamtime'. Thank you.
202.81.69.153 (talk) 10:57, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
Not done: The article already links to: Indigenous_Australians, and the information you requested to add is already suitably included at Indigenous_Australians#Belief_systems. Thanks Begoontalk 11:10, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
"Association football (soccer)" rather than just "soccer"
Could I please have some help here. I have changed the word "soccer" to "Association football (soccer)" but "Yellow Monkey" has once again reverted and is now accusing me of being a troll. "Association football" is the proper description of the game and the use of "soccer" is as hurtful as using, I dunno, "Paddy" to describe a person of Irish origin. There is no evidence that the term "soccer" is used any more commonly to describe the game in Australia - certainly outside of Victoria and Tasmania. Is there some sort of adjudication process we can put this up to? Silent Billy (talk) 00:36, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
In the northern states of Australia Aussie Rules football is referred to as 'AFL', should we thus use AFL in reference to the sport on all wikipadia pages? No. The recognised name of the code is association football, and that that is what it should be referred to on all wikipedia pages regardless of local colloqualisms in which specific codes are referred to solely as football. If people do not know what association football is, then they need to educate themselves. An encyclopedia is the means to achieve that. Calling the sport 'soccer' in articles is akin to referring to Kevin Rudd as 'KRUDD' in any article relating to him. It is offensive because he deserves to be recongised officially by his proper name. "Yellow Monkey" needs to drop the ignorant agenda. Aussie sportsman (talk) 01:22, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- Billy, good on you for arguing your case here once again. The list used here includes horse racing, surfing, soccer, and motor racing. This is adequate. There's also an internal link to Australian rules football which is esp. helpful for overseas readers. The usage on the Sports_in_Australia page is "soccer (Association_football)". You might note that the Sports_in_Australia page includes links to many codes, but they are not needed here.
- You should be encouraged for stimulating debate; now we should wait for a consensus. wcrosbie, Melbourne, Australia 01:43, 7 August 2010 (UTC) 01:39, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- Billy, good on you for arguing your case here once again. The list used here includes horse racing, surfing, soccer, and motor racing. This is adequate. There's also an internal link to Australian rules football which is esp. helpful for overseas readers. The usage on the Sports_in_Australia page is "soccer (Association_football)". You might note that the Sports_in_Australia page includes links to many codes, but they are not needed here.
- That is inadequate. Association football is one of the most (if not the most) popular participation sports in the country and deserves a much more significant mention in this article then it currently receives. One unlinked, incorrect mention for such a significant sport is pathetic. Australian Rules for example is linked multiple times..yet it is the only sport in the lower section which is linked. I would not be happy with [[Association football|soccer]] soccer .. that is akin to listing aussie rules as [[australian rules football|AFL] [[australian rules football|AFL]. Association football is the politically correct name for the sport and that is how it should be written...include (soccer) for the sake of the simple folk but the sport is association football Aussie sportsman (talk) 01:55, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
As it says when editing this page, this page is in Australian English. The Australian English term is soccer. We have always said soccer, it is what is used in the maquarie dictionary. Football is British english, not Australian English, this page must be kept faithful to Australian English, its an article on Australia, not Britain. I'm sure most people will understand soccer, because its also the american english term. this article is in english, and 3/4 of the english speaking as a 1st language people in the world are from the US, and then if you add australian english which also uses soccer, youve got the vast majority of the eng speaking world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saruman-the-white (talk • contribs) 02:27, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- Where is there any evidence that this term is "Australian English" the usage is limited to those who are anti-Association football. It is "football" everywhere else. Silent Billy (talk) 02:37, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- It is football only in the UK, and maybe Ireland. In Australia the sport is called soccer, I didn't even know the term Association football before I found in on wikipedia, and I'm sure barely anyone in Australia does. It's only the 4th most popular sport "football" sport in Australia. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 02:56, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- Where is there any evidence that this term is "Australian English" the usage is limited to those who are anti-Association football. It is "football" everywhere else. Silent Billy (talk) 02:37, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- Good on you Chips for admitting your former ignorance. But the fact that you apparently were so poorly read that you had not heard of the term "association football" is not a argument for the use of the term "soccer" in the article. Where is there evidence for your proposition that the game is known as "football" only in two countries? Silent Billy (talk) 03:04, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- And Fox use "AFL" for ' rules and I and many people in NSW call Aussie Rules "kick 'n' giggle" or liken it "eight year olds playing rugby union" but that doesn;t mean we should use those terms here. Back up your suppositions with verifiable evidence. Silent Billy (talk) 03:16, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- Per WP:BURDEN it is up to you Billy to prove that association football or football is commonly used in Australia. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 03:18, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- Well I do know (as I am sure that you do) that "Association football" is not as commonly used to refer to the code as "football" is. The Roar and SMH refer to "Association football" as "football" for starters. Silent Billy (talk) 03:37, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- Per WP:BURDEN it is up to you Billy to prove that association football or football is commonly used in Australia. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 03:18, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- And Fox use "AFL" for ' rules and I and many people in NSW call Aussie Rules "kick 'n' giggle" or liken it "eight year olds playing rugby union" but that doesn;t mean we should use those terms here. Back up your suppositions with verifiable evidence. Silent Billy (talk) 03:16, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- SIlent Billy - How on earth can calling the game soccer be hurtful. Virtually every Victorian, soccer fans or not, is comfortable with it. I know lots of quite rabid enthusiasts (I call them my friends!) who call it soccer. Why does is hurt you? The name in Victoria is not going to change any time soon. It can't. The name football has a distinct other purpose. Oh, and I suspect it's wider than Vic and Tas. It would also include SA, WA and NT. I will add, however, that I'm pretty well aware that the convention on Wikipedia is to call the game Association football wherever there is the possibility of confusion, such as in the USA and Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 07:02, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- Hilo48 - a lot of Australians don't live in Victoria and have no wish to either. Silent Billy (talk) 11:50, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Talk about Déjà vu. I'm sure we've been over this whole soccer thing before.
- "the use of "soccer" is as hurtful as" - Don't you think you're being overly dramatic here? How is using the common name for the game hirtful. Perhaps you should read the association football article which states in its opening sentence, "Association football, commonly known as football or soccer".
- "the usage is limited to those who are anti-Association football." - I'm sorry, but this is complete and utter bullshit. I turned 50 in December and, as far back as I can remember, it has always been called soccer in Australia, even by the fans, hence the "Soccerroos" and not the "Association footballoos". It's only been in recent years, when the sport has apparently started to become more popular here that the term "association football" has come into any use outside of the most rabid fans. Soccer clubs have always been called "football" or "soccer" clubs, never "association football" clubs.
- The arguments you're using here really don't help give your arguments credibility. Getting so upset over the fact that soccer is the common name would be like me (an IT consultant) getting upset over many people calling the system unit of their PC a "hard drive". Just accept the truth and move on. --AussieLegend (talk) 07:25, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
sorry mate, you made your point very well without knowing it by saying "its football everywhere else". you are exactly right, its football everywhere else (except the usa) AND AUSTRALIA. its not the australian term, as used in the maquarie dictionary or by the vast majority of australians, you dug your own grave on this one mate, sorry. soccer it stays. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saruman-the-white (talk • contribs) 00:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- The argument about soccer v football from a linguistic perspective is of course easy. Yes in some countries, we need addendums to distinguish between different types of football. But this isn't the heart of the matter. The question is one of dominance.
The eggball aficionados are suggesting 'soccer' is fine as a differentiator on the assumption that something else in its vicinity, will be called "football". They perpetuates the key semantic property of 'soccer' - it unalterable sense of "otherness". If he makes the argument that NOTHING should be called football and every code should have its own handle, then so be it, but as it stands, this isn't the case.
I'm amazed that of all things some here have used South Africa as a counter point. The word "soccer" was thrust upon the sport there by white men describing a black man's passion, or vice as many saw it. It contained none of the Edwardian values of Rugby Football, and therefore didn't deserve the word football. So much of the meaning behind "soccer" when South African's use it, is about otherness, of minority, of difference, of inferiority. Likewise, if an Irishman likes "Association football", he'll call it "football". If he hates it, or if he equates football with British imperialism and an affront to his sense of independence, he'll call it "soccer".
In the six letters of "soccer" is imbued a put down that can only be explained through an understanding of semantics, and putting it into historical context. When "soccer" is used by football supporters, it rolls unceremoniously off the tongue. But when used by its many detractors, it is punctuated and bulletted into our vernacular as a reminder that "there is only one true football in this town buddy, and it ain't your football."
"Soccer" is a dirty word. It is used to symbolise the past problems of the sport in Australia. When "soccer" was the word commonly used in Australia by the code itself it was a game for ", sheilas wogs and poofters", today that has changed - "football" is the right term to use.
The fallaciousness of the argument put by the Victorians above that their usage should be adopted by the whole of Australia is laughably self evident.
I notice Bidgee is too weak to cut and paste the MD entry here. That must be because it does not actually support his argument (you're not the only one with a sub maaaaaaaaaate) Silent Billy (talk) 01:14, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
An example of how the word "soccer" has evolved and is is used as vindictive insult in Victoria appears on the Melbourne tabloid website: ... most Aussies still see Soccer as the backward foreign ehtnicgame. Silent Billy (talk) 01:24, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- "I notice Bidgee is too weak to cut and paste the MD entry here." A rather lame personal attack but no I'm not weak since adding copyrighted content will get myself blocked, I suggest you get the MD or get an account online. Bidgee (talk) 06:37, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Billy - I find it hurtful when paranoid bullies completely ignore my seriously thought out contributions. So I will post again, hoping you will pay some attention this time.
- How on earth can calling the game soccer be hurtful. Virtually every Victorian, soccer fans or not, is comfortable with it. I know lots of quite rabid enthusiasts (I call them my friends!) who call it soccer. Why does is hurt you? The name in Victoria is not going to change any time soon. It can't. The name football has a distinct other purpose. Oh, and I suspect it's wider than Vic and Tas. It would also include SA, WA and NT. I will add, however, that I'm pretty well aware that the convention on Wikipedia is to call the game Association football wherever there is the possibility of confusion, such as in the USA and Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 01:38, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- "Virtually every Victorian, soccer fans or not, is comfortable with it." - have you got a verifiable source for that? It's a ridiculous thing to claim. Silent Billy (talk) 01:45, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Of course I don't have a verifiable source for what I said Billy, apart from living here for 60+ years. I don't need a source. I spoke common sense. I spoke from experience. If you still want to fight over this, I think YOU need a verifiable source that tells us some Victorians ARE hurt by the name soccer. Maybe you could start by checking with all the clubs called soccer clubs. Stop making such a big issue over this. I like soccer. I played it as a kid. The town I lived in had the state league champions one year. The local soccer club. We were all very proud. It just makes no sense to call it football here. So let's go with Association football when discussing Australia. (I'm quite happy with the name Australian football for the local code too. It would be dumb to call it simply football.) We have four professional sports called football here, and at least two others played at amateur level. No-one owns the name football in Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 02:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- "The eggball aficionados" - I'm afraid your non-NPOV slip is showing. Have you already forgotten "the use of "soccer" is as hurtful as" and "the usage is limited to those who are anti-Association football"? "Eggball" isn't a recognised nickname for any sport that I'm aware. Why should you expect others to use official names when you clearly can't do the same?
- "I'm amazed that of all things some here have used South Africa as a counter point. The word "soccer" was thrust upon the sport there by white men describing a black man's passion" - I'm not sure what South Africa has to do with anything. According to both Association football and Names for association football, the term soccer originated in England, first appearing in the 1880s as an Oxford "-er" abbreviation of the word "association".
- "bulletted into our vernacular as a reminder that "there is only one true football in this town buddy, and it ain't your football."" - "Our" vernacular? I assume you must be American.
- ""Soccer" is a dirty word." - In your opinion. Soccer is widely used throughout the world. From Association football: "Today the sport is known as football in English-speaking countries in which it is the most popular football code; where other codes are more popular, the sport is more commonly referred to as soccer." From Names for association football: "The term association football has never been widely used, although in England some clubs in rugby league strongholds adopted the suffix Association Football Club (AFC) to avoid confusion with the dominant sport in their area."
- "it was a game for ", sheilas wogs and poofters"," - When would that have been? Soccer has been popular in Australia for Australia as long as I can remember, although it has always been overshadowed by league. I've never heard it referred to in the derogatory manner that you've used, although I have occasionally heard it to as "wogball", mainly because it was primarily popular with immigrants from Europe.
- "I notice Bidgee is too weak to cut and paste the MD entry here." - Please, comment on content, not on the contributor. That sort of tone is uncivil. --AussieLegend (talk) 01:58, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Back on to topic, I think it should be called soccer in articles about australia, per WP:COMMONNAME. Also, the Australian team is called Socceroos, which says alot. I myself have no problem with calling it football, and I do sometimes, depending on the context (such as when watching the world cup). It's a great game, however, in Australia it is mainly known as soccer. So in the article we should leave it as such. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 02:36, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Sheilas, Wogs and Poofters, An Incomplete Biography of Johnny Warren & Soccer is a best-selling book by Johnny Warren, tracing the growth of soccer in Australia, especially in the post-WWII years. The title refers to alleged sexist, racist and homophobic attitudes towards football exhibited frequently by many Australians and especially the major city media in Australia through this period. A Google search for the term, without Warren's name finds 13,000 stand-alone references to the term. Mitch Ames (talk) 03:26, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Google hits don't mean much. Many of those hits refer specifically to the book, Put it in inverted commas and there are 8,350 hits. A search on my first attempt to be elected to parliament got 100,000 hits, without specifying the electorate got 157,000. --AussieLegend (talk) 03:53, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Sheilas, Wogs and Poofters, An Incomplete Biography of Johnny Warren & Soccer is a best-selling book by Johnny Warren, tracing the growth of soccer in Australia, especially in the post-WWII years. The title refers to alleged sexist, racist and homophobic attitudes towards football exhibited frequently by many Australians and especially the major city media in Australia through this period. A Google search for the term, without Warren's name finds 13,000 stand-alone references to the term. Mitch Ames (talk) 03:26, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Wow - what a waste of valuable collective editing time. And a generally uncivil one at that too. There must be at least 30 posts in this section. Would it not be better for editors to spend their (presumably limited) editing time doing something more constructive? --Merbabu (talk) 07:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Just had a look at Silent Billy's Talk page. He has already been repeatedly warned for disruptive editing around the word soccer. While he clearly generally makes a valuable contribution to Wikipedia, his unrealistic obsession with eliminating that word from Australian usage is clearly on display. I don't think we have a tool in Wikipedia to ban people from using a particular word in their edits. It would avoid these troll discussions if we could. HiLo48 (talk) 07:56, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- If you really had looked at my Talk page you would have seen that the one so-called "warning" was from Bidgee who then went off crying to an admin Kuru who saw that I was not being "disruptive" but possibly in danger of breaking the 3RR, And what was the edit that Bidgee found so horrendous - a citation required tag on some nonsense added to a disambig page. Fortunately another Admin saw that I wasn;t doing anything wrong and sorted the issue out with an intelligent edit. When Bidgee whined about the edit the Admin had this to say "You've reported the editor to AIV because of vandalism at Soccer (disambiguation). As an admin, I've looked there and found no base for issuing level-4 warning right away and reporting the editor to AIV. As an editor, I believe the previous description of soccer there was not adequate." and "We may not blame an editor for requesting sources, if the fact is indeed obvious, we should be able to provide those sources." So please dear HiLo48 amend your errr... misleading statement. Silent Billy (talk) 11:43, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
NSW foundation date
Formally, it happened on 7 February 1788, not on 26 January 1788. See Governor of New South Wales: "Captain Arthur Phillip assumed office as Governor of New South Wales on 7 February 1788, when the Colony of New South Wales, the first British settlement in Australia, was formally founded".
I guess we still have to mention 26 January 1788, being the significant date as far as the history of the (small c) colony is concerned, but we must not mislead readers about the true facts. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 02:02, 7 August 2010 (UTC)