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Requested move 07 November 2014
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: consensus to move the pages, per the discussion below. The objections to the move here are not related to the merits of the request at hand, and one of the editors in opposition actually expresses support for the change. The assumption of the opposing editors that there is no consensus for the moves is not borne out in the discussion here. It is important to clarify that while moves based on guidelines are preferable to moves based on local consensus, move requests listed at Wikipedia:Requested moves are seen by a broad cross-section of editors. Further, while WikiProjects do contribute significant work to articles within their purview, WikiProjects are not intended to create guidelines that conflict with broader consensus; see Category:Style guidelines of WikiProjects for more. In the absence of more specific guidelines, our existing guidelines and policies should be used to determine the locations of these articles, and it is along these lines that the move requests engendered support. Finally, if another move request is needed in order to assess the support for moving Istriana goat to Istrian goat, please proceed. Dekimasuよ! 00:02, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
- Aspromonte (goat) → Aspromonte goat
- British Alpine (goat) → British Alpine goat
- Ciavenasca (goat) → Ciavenasca goat
- Garfagnina (goat) → Garfagnina goat
- Huai (goat) → Huai goat
- Istriana (goat) → Istriana goat
- Laoshan (goat) → Laoshan goat
- Napoletana (goat) → Napoletana goat
- Sempione (goat) → Sempione goat
- Roccaverano (goat) → Roccaverano goat
- Russian White (goat) → Russian White goat
- Sarda (goat) → Sarda goat
– Per WP:NATURAL policy. Of 135 articles in Category:Goat breeds (over half of which required disambiguation), only an even dozen were still using parenthetic disambiguation. See large number of recent RMs, all closing in favor of natural vs. parenthetical disambiguation: Talk:Teeswater sheep#Requested move 25 August 2014 (a large mass-RM), Talk:American Sable rabbit#Requested moves, Talk:Strasser pigeon#Requested moves, Talk:Corsican cattle#Requested moves, Talk:Flemish Giant rabbit#Requested moves, Talk:Dutch Landrace goat#Requested moves, and some recent individual ones, e.g. Talk:Bronze turkey#Requested move, Talk:West African Dwarf goat#Requested move, Talk:White Park cattle#Requested move, Talk:Australian Pit Game fowl#Requested move, etc. – — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 12:23, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
- This is a contested technical request (permalink). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 14:50, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
- Speedy?: If there's a provision for speedily closing this, let's invoke it. There's no point in running a long RM on an issue that only just recently was already settled in multiple RMs that concluded in favor of the exact same sorts of moves (of animal breed articles, from names using parenthetic disambiguation to names using natural disambiguation). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 14:50, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
- Sources: As an exercise, I proved the usage of natural disambiguation in real-world sources, across a range of breed names in previous RMs of this sort: Talk:Teeswater sheep#Reliable sources regularly use natural disambiguation for these breeds (also used at Talk:Asturian Mountain cattle#Reliable sources regularly use natural disambiguation for these breeds; both RMs concluded against parenthetic disambiguation). The same holds true of goat breeds: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9]. The demonstrable fact is that natural disambiguation of animal breed names is simply an in-built feature of the English language. PS (not a WP:RM matter): The lack of almost any search results, other than blogs and those clearly derivative of Wikipedia's own articles, for the Ciavenasca, Istriana and Sempione breeds suggests that they fail WP:Notability and may be good WP:AFD candidates. Not every purported breed is an encyclopedic topic. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 15:30, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
- Support no one else that I have seen uses brackets. Gregkaye ✍♪ 15:59, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
- See also
Talk:Dutch Landrace goat#Requested move 07 November 2014moved to WP:Requested moves#Goat moves 2, opened by same contestor. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 16:45, 7 November 2014 (UTC) - Oppose. While it is true that many animal breed articles do not at present have parenthetical disambiguation, in many cases (around 250, I believe) that is because they were moved without consensus or discussion by SMcCandlish. Some of those are listed at Talk:Teeswater sheep#Requested move 25 August 2014, a discussion that closed (if I've understood correctly) as no consensus, which means that those articles will be restored to their previous titles. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 18:01, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
- Look again; that RM, which was to belatedly revert WP:NATURAL-compliant moves after ~2 months (and now about 5 months) of stability and no problems, closed as
"no move"
. It was closed by Anthony Appleyard who writes closures pretty carefully, and was the same admin, as I recall, who observed when the issue was first opened by you at RM that there would be no point, and a lot of wasted work, in doing a status quo ante revert of hundreds of articles to parenthetical disambiguation, on the "revert undiscussed moves" technicality (questionably applicable at that late a date) without a clear consensus in favor of that parenthetical style, because the eventual result under WP:NATURAL policy would be to move them right back to natural disambiguation as soon as the same articles were nominated for RM again, on the merits instead of on the status quo ante technicality. This was clear from the outset, and it's been mentioned repeatedly in that RM and all the ones that ran parallel to it, so there can be no room for surprise. Insisting on a procedural revert we predict will be re-reverted, simply to follow procedure to the letter for its own sake, is not what we do.In several months of breed RMs, you've relied entirely upon a bogus argument that the renames must be bad because of who it was who previously moved some articles back in June (me, in many cases). It's irrelevant; this is Wikipedia, which we all edit. Articles do not move themselves, we move them, and which one of us moved what article almost half a year ago has nothing to do with WP:Article titles policy or the relative merits of one article name over another. The consensus in a long string of RMs has supported these moves as has, simply, time. I feel that you have confused ANI's criticism of my now-abandoned "just move them boldly" tactic (about which behavioral questions were addressed almost four months ago) for a consensus against my rationales for the natural-disambig moves, which has not materialized at all (in fact, many critics of the tactic agreed with the rationale, and just thought it should have gone to RM discussion, which has now happened in spades). There has been no mass uprising to challenge WP:NATURAL and its applicability here. It's the exact opposite of WP:FAITACCOMPLI, with RM being unnecessarily mired in discussions that are not actually controversial and simply happening for procedure's sake, just in case you can muster some kind of support. You've had months, and it hasn't happened. Re-re-re-raising the same challenge, after it's already been overturned several times, is contraindicated, and smacks of "asking the other parent".
Request for an actual opposition rationale – I ask you again, as I do at all of these things: Please provide a fact- and policy-based rationale why WP:NATURAL policy is somehow not applicable to some animal breed articles you don't want it to apply to, such as the ones in this case. I now add: please also provide such a rationale for why the precedent of all the recently cited breed article RMs favoring natural disambiguation (and there were none that did not, either explicitly or implicitly) somehow doesn't apply to this small handful of articles. The case against parenthetical disambiguation for this sort of article is today several times stronger than it was a little over a week ago before those RMs all closed against parenthetical. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 19:55, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
- Look again; that RM, which was to belatedly revert WP:NATURAL-compliant moves after ~2 months (and now about 5 months) of stability and no problems, closed as
- Smc, there is NO CONSENSUS for your RMs and you know it. Different animal species have different issues. While I may prefer natural disambiguation, I know that others have legitimate arguments in the opposite direction, at least for certain species. Discuss these issues and stop trying to create a one-person "consensus" by sheer walls of text. Montanabw(talk) 05:10, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
- Support: I will state once again that I do not like mass moves. HOWEVER, these listings, lacking clear individual exceptions, are in direct violation of Wikipedia policies and guidelines. The policy on article titles does not give any exceptions for certain naming conventions to be exempt from parenthetical disambiguation to be used when at all times and not If natural disambiguation is not possible or to denote two different meanings of the same name with the same spelling. It does give an example of use to disambiguate the country of Turkey from the bird Turkey and not individual breeds. It is clear that this type of disambiguation was not intended to extend to animal breeds in general as that would negate any need for WP:NATURAL. Some common sense has to be used but ignoring any type or form of consistency that creates confusion only hurts Wikipedia. If mass listings are required to appeal to the broader community for some form of consistency then I guess that is what is needed. Since I do not care for mass moves I will visit each of the 12 listed here to see if there are exceptions.
- Aspromonte (goat): In the Italian Wikipedia is listed as Capra_dell'Aspromonte, is the common breed name, and the Google translation of that is Aspromonte goat which does need disambiguation to differentiate from Aspromonte.
- British Alpine (goat) or British Alpine: is not as easy. The use of British in the name, not only is the actual name, also shows a difference between it and Alpine goats. The breed originally came from France and were crossed with the Toggenburg (goat) that probably was missed when listing the others. Whereas disambiguation is certainly needed to denote the country Turkey from a general bird name (not specific breed) the goat from the region of Toggenburg is a specific breed. Is "British Alpine goat a made up name? A Google search indicates that it is common to refer to the British Alpine as the British Alpine breed when referring to breeds of goats and and the British Alpine goat when referring to the individual breed of goat.
- Ciavenasca (goat): There is the article Ciavenasca, that is about sheep, and Ciavenasca (goat). One could justify the parenthetical use of goat to justify the vague naming of "Ciavenasca" or simply naturally disambiguate. There must be, by reasoning of consistency, accident, or mistake, why we use goat meat in lieu of meat (goat). We could use "Ciavenasca (breed of goat)" if that would make sense.
- Garfagnana (goat): We have the same issue with inconsistency as with "Ciavenasca" and "Ciavenasca (goat)". There is the article Garfagnana, that is about cattle, and Garfagnana goat using parenthetical disambiguation.
- Huai (goat): is a Chinese breed and there does not appear to be a lot of information but there is the use of goat in Chinese breeds such as the Huai goat and the Haimen goat from the Jiangsu province (information not in the stub) to support the name.
- Istriana (goat): Istriana is a breed of sheep and also a breed of goat. We have the same naming issue that can be solved with natural disambiguation.
- Laoshan (goat): Another Chinese provincial breed. No known reason why natural disambiguation would be argued.
- Napoletana (goat): A goat breed from Italian region of Campania. No known reason against natural disambiguation.
- Sempione (goat): Another Italian breed and no reason against natural disambiguation.
- Roccaverano (goat): Another Italian breed from the Piedmont region where Roccaverano is located. No known argument why natural disambiguation can not be used.
- Russian White (goat): Very short stub. No reasoning why natural disambiguation can not be used.
- Sarda (goat): There is Sarda the goat breed and Sarda the cattle breed. Parenthetical disambiguation is used on both when natural would not only suffice but would be in line with the policy on disambiguation.
- Conclusion: There is overwhelming reasoning why parenthetical disambiguation should not be used that includes policy. Deviating from policy for confusion or to disrupt is not clear reasoning to argue against a mass move to correct issues. Using such parenthetical disambiguation is the exception when natural can not be used and not because an editor, or even naming convention, decides it is better against Wikipedia wide consensus. Otr500 (talk) 16:05, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
- Support There has to be a very good reason to use parentheses in titles. In all of these cases there is no such very good reason; natural disambiguation works perfectly well and is much more obvious to readers who should be our main concern. (The disadvantage of dealing with a batch of this size is that it's time-consuming to check whether disambiguation is needed at all; I'm assuming that in every case it is.) Peter coxhead (talk) 20:08, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
- Support except Istriana. Assuming we have the correct common names, it seems pretty well settled that we should use natural instead of parenthetical disambiguation. However, I suspect "Istriana" should be "Istrian" instead (Google Scholar: no results for "Istriana goat" vs. 19 for "Istrian goat", and the FAO lists Istrian as a synonym). —Neil P. Quinn (talk) 02:40, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose:The main reason is that we have a group of articles, but none of this has been resolved at the relevant wikiprojects; the end result will be some articles with one set of title styles and others differently- titled. The issue of natural versus parenthetical disambiguation has not reached consensus, and consensus across multiple animal species may be quite difficult to achieve. We have a single editor who has proposed moves of dozens if not hundreds of articles across multiple individual article pages, as here, and it is creating chaos. The overall projects (WP:Agriculture, etc.) need to sort out what to do and if a consistent policy can be created. (Full disclosure: I personally lean in favor of natural disambiguation, but I have also heard compelling arguments for parenthetical disambiguation for some animal articles, notably domestic fowl) Montanabw(talk) 07:08, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Italian does not capitalize capra dell'Aspromonte as *Capra dell'Aspromonte
The only Italian sources cited so far give this breed name as capra dell'Aspromonte in mid-sentence. Direct quote: "I soggetti di popolazione capra dell’Aspromonte devono:..." [10]. All other cases are titles/headings given in title case or all-caps. Italian (like Spanish, French and other Romance-family languages) does not follow the same capitalization rules as English. This would only be capitalized in Italian if it were the formal name in a Protected Designation of Origin, and we have no source suggesting this. We have no source that this has been assimilated into our language as the breed's name in English (if it had, a case for capitalization might be made then). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 01:01, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
- And if it were German, they'd capitalize everything. @Justlettersandnumbers: on this question, he speaks fluent Italian. In fact, I'd state with some assurance that he is probably wikipedia's foremost expert on Italian and other western European rare animal breeds. I'll defer to his views on the matter. Montanabw(talk) 03:01, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
- Italian, like French, generally uses fewer capitals than English and, like most other languages including most notably English, does not have firm capitalisation rules. In English Wikipedia we follow our own capitalisation practices, among which are that animal breed names are capitalised, and that proper names are capitalised. Thus our article on the French national dressage team is at Cadre Noir (because I moved it there) even though that organisation calls itself "Cadre noir", and our article on the famous pig of Siena is at Cinta Senese (because SMcCandlish moved it there) even though it is invariably called "Cinta senese" in Italian. If there is some desire to adopt foreign norms of capitalisation in this wiki then please seek a project-wide consensus before making changes here.
- SMcCandlish is invited to refresh his understanding of how compound adjectives are used in English – there's guidance specific to this project at MOS:HYPHEN - and to refrain from introducing grammatical errors with the edit summary "grammar".
- I can't believe that WP:CITEVAR was ever intended to cover anything so unbelievably childish and trivial as pointlessly fucking about with the names of named references, but cover it it does: "Editors should not attempt to change an article's established citation style merely on the grounds of personal preference ... it is normal practice to defer to the style used by the first major contributor". Since in this case that happens to be me, let me make clear that I prefer, for the sake of simplicity, not to use the quite unnecessary quote marks round reference names, and that that style was established in the article at its creation.
- Is this really the best possible use of our time? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 08:54, 19 November 2014 (UTC)