Tariqabjotu (talk | contribs) →Flag of Israel or PNA: + replies |
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:::::::::"Censor" and "Israeli nationalists" are generally not collaborative words. -- '''[[User:Tariqabjotu|<font color="black">tariq</font><font color="gray">abjotu</font>]]''' 07:36, 8 August 2009 (UTC) |
:::::::::"Censor" and "Israeli nationalists" are generally not collaborative words. -- '''[[User:Tariqabjotu|<font color="black">tariq</font><font color="gray">abjotu</font>]]''' 07:36, 8 August 2009 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Tiamut, this isn't about claims - Israel doesn't just "claim Jerusalem as its own", but actually controls the entire city. Like it or not, it's an Israeli city now. Might change in the future, but that's what it currently is. |
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:::::::::We're not discussing me here, so I won't bother engaging you with that. I'll just say - once again you prove the futility of compromise. Any compromise, even one that everyone respects for an entire month after a long edit war, is just the basis for more changes to your direction. I'll remember that in the future. [[User:Okedem|okedem]] ([[User talk:Okedem|talk]]) 08:01, 8 August 2009 (UTC) |
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:This event wasawarded to a Palestinian organising committee. Obviously the status of Jerusalem is disputed, but when it comes to the issue of whose event it is, it is the PA's and not Israel's.--[[User:Peter cohen|Peter cohen]] ([[User talk:Peter cohen|talk]]) 23:02, 7 August 2009 (UTC) |
:This event wasawarded to a Palestinian organising committee. Obviously the status of Jerusalem is disputed, but when it comes to the issue of whose event it is, it is the PA's and not Israel's.--[[User:Peter cohen|Peter cohen]] ([[User talk:Peter cohen|talk]]) 23:02, 7 August 2009 (UTC) |
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::Although I imagine the "State awarded" might be a bit of our innovation, I think the current formulation is okay. -- '''[[User:Tariqabjotu|<font color="black">tariq</font><font color="gray">abjotu</font>]]''' 07:36, 8 August 2009 (UTC) |
::Although I imagine the "State awarded" might be a bit of our innovation, I think the current formulation is okay. -- '''[[User:Tariqabjotu|<font color="black">tariq</font><font color="gray">abjotu</font>]]''' 07:36, 8 August 2009 (UTC) |
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:::It's a strange solution, but I can accept it, despite its inaccuracy. [[User:Okedem|okedem]] ([[User talk:Okedem|talk]]) 08:01, 8 August 2009 (UTC) |
Revision as of 08:01, 8 August 2009
Jerusalem, Israel
al quds is simply Arabic for Jerusalem, and this is english wikipeida, and the jerusalem article is called jerusalem. we're using the city, country here so we use Israel. if they specifically only said East Jerusalem, that could have been controversial, but that's the way it is... 216.165.3.253 (talk) 05:13, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with you, same applies on almost all article about countries and capitals, all of those artilces are titled with the English name of the country, capital, or city. So it is not about Jerusalem (East and West) is an Arabic city or not, it is about using the English name for the city. Nevertheless, in this article we are talking about an event, this event is using the following title (Al Quds Capital of Culture) this is why Al Quds is used instead of Jerusalem. Wish this has made the issue more clear. --Yamanam (talk) 07:20, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
- I'm afraid not... if you want to use only the city, do so for every year, and erase all flags. The name is simply in arabic, and again this is english wikipedia. So the name of the event is translated to english, and has in fact been translated already for all the other city. For example, Damascus is the english name. Also you for some reason changed it to east jerusalem, although al quds again means jerusalem. Hope it's clear now... 216.165.3.29 (talk) 16:02, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
- The name of the event as per the organizers is Alquds as you can see in their websites, while Damascus Arab Capital was named in English Damascus Arab Capital of Culture not Demmashq Arab Capital of Culutre. This is how we name articles at Wikipedia, not as per the translation. Yamanam (talk) 11:01, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
- I'm afraid not... if you want to use only the city, do so for every year, and erase all flags. The name is simply in arabic, and again this is english wikipedia. So the name of the event is translated to english, and has in fact been translated already for all the other city. For example, Damascus is the english name. Also you for some reason changed it to east jerusalem, although al quds again means jerusalem. Hope it's clear now... 216.165.3.29 (talk) 16:02, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Alquds
There are certain events taking place in Mar Elias refugee camp in Lebanon, does this mean that we should add the Lebanese flag? No. The organizers and the UNESCO have chosen Al-Quds - Palestinian Authority to be the Arab Capital of Culture for the year 2009, not israel. Moreover, most of the events were held in the West Bank, Gaza, and other Arab countries which means that the event is in Palestine. We don't need to impose political aspect to the article. Yamanam (talk) 07:13, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
- Regardless of what the organizers claim, Jerusalem is in Israel, and not in the PA (both East and West). Even if, sometime in the future, East Jerusalem is placed under the jurisdiction of the PA, it is not now the case, and the PA, established by force of the Oslo Accords, has absolutely no standing there. okedem (talk) 16:30, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
- No, as per the International law East Jerusalem is being occupied by israel, which means it is not in israel. Only because israel has the upper hand here to control East Jerusalem doesn't mean it is in israel, you can review status of Jerusalem. --Yamanam (talk) 06:27, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Jerusalem, Palestine
This is the ARAB capital of culture, the ARAB world and Palestinians consider Jerusalem (Al Quds) to be the capital of Palestine INCLUDING those who organize the Arab Capital of Culture 2009 event. They see it as the Capital of Palestinians, not Israel, and therefor it should clearly be a Palestinian flag and say that it is in Palestine and the Palestinian capital = Jerusalem. --85.229.133.89 (talk) 16:46, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
http://www.alquds2009.com/etemplate.php?id=5
Contact Us
1st Floor Palestine Red Crescent Society Jerusalem Road P.O.BOX: 3637 Al-Bireh, Palestine Tel.: +970 (2) 2402009
+970 (2) 2960277
Fax: +970 (2) 2960278
Mobile: 0598-092009 E-mail: info@alquds2009.org
--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:47, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- I have added a footnote similar to that in Israel summarising the existence of the dispute and linking the main article on the Status of Jerusalem.--Peter cohen (talk) 20:32, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
Flag of Israel or PNA
As an act of tolerance I suggest that no flag or entity will show next to the name of the city of Jerusalem. The other option is having both flags with the inscriptions Israel and PNA/Palestine next to it. Politics and disputes are well known to all, as well as the citizenship of the inhabitants of Esat Jerusalem, and who de facto controls it in the present. It is also known that the decision to declare the city as Arab Capital of Culture was taken by one side unilateraly, and for that reason there were no real events taking place. That said, a Palestinain flag disturbs some and the Israeli one disturbs others. Please accept my suggestion. Cheers Ori (talk) 16:15, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
- I'm afraid I have to disagree. All other entries have flags accompanying them. Palestine is a member state in the Arab League and has a right to have its flag displayed here alongside all others. Israel should not be listed here as it is not recognized as having an Arab capital either by the Arab League or UNESCO. Tiamuttalk 21:38, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
- Your claims are irrelevant to this. Jerusalem is under full Israeli control, with at least one part of the city widely recognized as belonging to Israel after any peace treaty; despite Palestinian aspirations, they have no control of Jerusalem - any part of it. UNESCO and the Arab League can use whatever flag and country designation they want - on their own websites. We will not mislead our readers into thinking the Jerusalem is under Palestinian control. We can go back to edit-warring between having the Israeli and the Palestinian flags, or you can accept this compromise, which is very accommodating to claims over the reality of this. okedem (talk) 21:44, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
- Your reversion out of the flag and the name Palestine from beside the Jerusalem listing is inappropriate. This is an article on the Arab Capital of Culture not the status of Jerusalem in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The sources indicate that Jerusalem was designated the Arab Capital of Culture for 2009 under the sponsorship of Palestine, not Israel. We mention Israel in our footnote which is sufficient, given that this is a cultural article, not politics 101. Tiamuttalk 21:47, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
- Again, irrelevant. We will not create the false impression that Jerusalem is in a Palestinian State, or under Palestinian control. Originally we argued to have the Israeli flag, and the name "Israel" next to the city, as is in reality. As a compromise, we agreed to not have any flag, despite Israel's full control of the city. This is more than fair to Palestinian claims. Disputes need to be solved by compromise, not by one side filibustering and pushing edits to get what they want. Do you want to go back to some users fighting to get the Israeli flag there, or do you want to keep the reasonable compromise we had? okedem (talk) 21:51, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
- First of all, you have now reverted twice to your preferred version (it is not a consensus version, I see one comment here asking that flags not be added and no response, until mine, which was negative). You are also the editor who reverted most often in the edit wars over this that extended between May and July 2009 as the history shows. In your two reverts today, you erased the footnoted text I altered which was more accurate than the other text, since it is not the Palestinian Authority who claims Jerusalem for itself, it is the PLO and PLC who declared Jerusalem the capital of Palestine in 1988 and 2003 respectively. You are the one edit-warring to uphold your so-called "compromise". (I'm sure others simply fatigued from fighting you over this.) I've posted a notice at WP:IPCOLL about this article. I don't agree that we should ignore what the sources pertaining to this article say. Jerusalem was declared the Arab Capital of Culture of Palestine in 2009. That is a fact. I don't care if Israel controls Jerusalem and claims it for itself too. We can cover that in a footnote. This is a cultural article, not a place for you to fight off alternate claims to Jerusalem on Israel's behalf. Tiamuttalk 21:57, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
- There were many reverts, to to main versions - one with an Israeli flag, the other with a Palestinian flag. All by users who are still very much active (at least three reverting to the Palestinian flag version). The last edit was by Ori, to the compromise version, a month ago. No one touched the article again until you did, today. One can only suppose that the other users found the compromise agreeable. (I very much doubt that three diligent users just gave up at the same time).
- Your reasoning is flawed and irrelevant. This isn't about who declared it, and exactly what they thought. We have a list of cities, saying where they are. Going by reality, there ought to be an Israeli flag there. But to avoid the edit-war, Ori came up with a good compromise. Just saying "Jerusalem" - we all know what and where it is, and there no need for the controversy here.
- But after a month of quiet, you come in, and decide to try and pull in your direction anyway. okedem (talk) 22:07, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you, Tiamut, for proving that compromise is not the right way. That reasonable solutions are meaningless in your book, and that any article can be used to push your agenda. Fine. I guess we'll go back to getting the Israeli flag in there. Thanks for destroying a good compromise. okedem (talk) 22:10, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
- Okedem, point me to the discussion on this page indicating that editors found this to be a good compromise. There is none.
- You have reverted more times than any other editor at this article. I checked the history and it shows. I suspect other editors simply tired of battling you.
- Given that Supreme Deliciousness just now restored my edit (after you reverted to your so-called compromise version twice) it seems that others were not satisfied with the compromise proposed. I did not know there was any such compromise. If there was one discussed on the talk page, I might have seen it and respected it. As it is, all I did was update the information in the footnote and restore the flag and word "Palestine" so that the entry for Jerusalem was in line with the other listings and the sources cited for this article. n
- This article is not the article on Jerusalem. There, you argued that the viewpoint of the world, that is their non-recognition of Israel's claim of Jerusalem as its capital, would be adequately represented in a footnote and that its placement at the top of the article was UNDUE. This is cultural article Okedem, about Arab Capitals of Culture and Israel's claim to Jerusalem can be adequately covered in a footnote. We don't have to avoid using the word Palestine because it might offend some people. Its a fact that Palestine is an Arab League member and that it is the sponsor of the Jerusalem celebrations. That fact won't be denied to our readers just because you can't stand the word. Tiamuttalk 22:18, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
- Irrelevant. The flag and country name aren't for whoever claims the city, but for where it actually is. And it's in Israel. Even the Palestinians claim East Jerusalem, not all of it, and physically Israel controls the entire city. There's a very good case to having the Israeli flag there, and yet - that's not what I was arguing for, but for a compromise.
- Yes, I didn't say everyone supported the compromise suggested. But it was implemented, and no one touched the article for a month, after a long time of daily reverting. Is that a coincidence?
- Do you want to go back to fighting over the flag? Fine, that's what you'll get. okedem (talk) 22:21, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
- I don't want to fight period. What I want is for us to treat Palestine the way we treat all other participants in the Arab Capital of Culture. That is, I want the listing to read Jerusalem (Palestine) and for there to be a flag like every other entry. I'm not against a footnote explaining that Israel claims Jerusalem as its own. But I don't see why we should censor the word Palestine out and remove the Palestinian flag simply because some Israeli nationalists have a problem sharing their claim to Jerusalem - even in a cultural article that probably no one even reads anyway. Give me a break Okedem. Is it so important that you had to revert 25 times over the last couple of months? Tiamuttalk 22:31, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
- "Censor" and "Israeli nationalists" are generally not collaborative words. -- tariqabjotu 07:36, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
- Tiamut, this isn't about claims - Israel doesn't just "claim Jerusalem as its own", but actually controls the entire city. Like it or not, it's an Israeli city now. Might change in the future, but that's what it currently is.
- We're not discussing me here, so I won't bother engaging you with that. I'll just say - once again you prove the futility of compromise. Any compromise, even one that everyone respects for an entire month after a long edit war, is just the basis for more changes to your direction. I'll remember that in the future. okedem (talk) 08:01, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
- This event wasawarded to a Palestinian organising committee. Obviously the status of Jerusalem is disputed, but when it comes to the issue of whose event it is, it is the PA's and not Israel's.--Peter cohen (talk) 23:02, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
- Although I imagine the "State awarded" might be a bit of our innovation, I think the current formulation is okay. -- tariqabjotu 07:36, 8 August 2009 (UTC)