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I am not sure the issue is inclusion so much as to what degree. This is why the lede is a problem.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 18:48, 20 July 2019 (UTC) |
I am not sure the issue is inclusion so much as to what degree. This is why the lede is a problem.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 18:48, 20 July 2019 (UTC) |
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: [[User:Jontel|Jontel]], note that the original content contained a rebuttal from Labour: Labour Party officials sought to refute the programme's findings, claiming that the former party employees were "disaffected former officials" who had "both personal and political axes to grind". [[User:Absolutelypuremilk|Absolutelypuremilk]] ([[User talk:Absolutelypuremilk|talk]]) 19:49, 20 July 2019 (UTC) |
: [[User:Jontel|Jontel]], note that the original content contained a rebuttal from Labour: Labour Party officials sought to refute the programme's findings, claiming that the former party employees were "disaffected former officials" who had "both personal and political axes to grind". [[User:Absolutelypuremilk|Absolutelypuremilk]] ([[User talk:Absolutelypuremilk|talk]]) 19:49, 20 July 2019 (UTC) |
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This might be relevant if we're to include it. A new report from the Media Reform Coalition on the Panorama documentary. [https://www.mediareform.org.uk/blog/bbc-panorama-on-anti-semitism-a-catalogue-of-reporting-failures] also covered [https://www.thecanary.co/uk/analysis/2019/08/02/panoramas-attack-on-corbyns-labour-undermined-the-b]. [[User:G-13114|G-13114]] ([[User talk:G-13114|talk]]) 19:04, 2 August 2019 (UTC) |
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== Finkelstein; citations == |
== Finkelstein; citations == |
Revision as of 19:04, 2 August 2019
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Jeremy Corbyn vs. the Labour Party
Much of this article is about Jeremy Corbyn. Even though he is the leader, it seems unfair to tar the whole organisation with the actions of one person, especially in this level of detail. This material is covered on his own lengthy page. He should be mentioned here but shall we remove the detailed material about Corbyn from this page and simply reference him in relation to this? Jontel (talk)
- i have long argued that this article focuses too much on one man, and a narrow slice of time.Slatersteven (talk) 17:04, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
- I agree that it focuses too much on the post-2015 period and has too little on the history, and perhaps that too much of the post-2015 period focuses on Corbyn. But I would proceed by expanding the pre-2015 material and be very careful about what is stripped out as it is likely to face disagreement. I'd bring examples here first to get consensus before removing. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:59, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- The article creator's original version of the article very much concentrated on Jeremy Corbyn's leadership of the Labour Party (note the very first sentence, which refers to the current controversy and cites a Vox article recounting its first two years). Because the article title was such a general one, other material has been tacked on, with an unbalancing result. It would have been better if a more specific title had been chosen in the first place. The article creator (who has since been banned) left a revealing comment on the talkpage: "I'm going to be working on a background section, how the party has become antisemitic and why." That displays a probably ahistorical belief that the party members are more antisemitic than they've ever been, explaining why, despite the general title, he or she concentrated on the period of Corbyn's leadership. ← ZScarpia 11:31, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
- Interesting. An objective of this campaign by some does appear to me to be to depose Corbyn, and this is not always explicit. Further to BobFromBrockley's comment, I propose that the material about Corbyn and alleged antisemitism prior to his election as leader i.e. 6.1, which is more about him than the Labour Party, is replaced by the statement that: 'Corbyn has been challenged on antisemitism in relation to associations and comments prior to his election as leader', with a link to his profile, which contains a significant section covering all the allegations. This would enable those interested to explore his past actions and views, while retaining the focus of the article on the organization, which is its subject. Jontel (talk) 12:02, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
- The article focuses on the Corbyn content because that is what the sources focus on. We shouldn't remove relevant content because of perceived injustices in the sources. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 13:31, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks; perhaps I can be clearer to save time/ effort. I am not suggesting that the possible motives of the sources is a reason for the material on Corbyn's past actions and views prior to his becoming leader to be simply referenced via a link in this article to his page rather than being detailed at length. Nor, though, do I think that such material should be included in this article simply because it has been published. Rather, it is a question of its relevance to the subject of this article, as you suggest. Corbyn's actions and views as leader are unquestionably relevant to an article on the Labour Party. However, I suggest that his actions and views as a mere one of hundreds of backbenchers are much less so and need only be referred to with a link to his page, where they are covered, rather than detailed here. His impact as leader can be judged on the basis of his behaviour in that role, rather than his very long past history. Removing the duplication between the two articles will also help with the length of this one. Jontel (talk) 13:53, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
- Perhaps it would be better to have two articles, a "UK Labour Party antisemitism controversy" one, which the current article was originally clearly supposed to be about, and an "Antisemitism in the UK Labour Party" one, which covers the history of antisemitism in the Labour Party? ← ZScarpia 13:45, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
- Jontel, if Corbyn had stayed as a simple backbencher then they would not be notable enough to take up a significant chunk of the article. However, once he was elected leader, then his historical actions become more notable and relevant to this article. ZScarpia, while Corbyn's previous actions do take up a significant part of the article, they don't seem to take up enough to justify a whole new article. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 14:01, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
- I did not suggest "a whole new article" on Corbyn and his 'antisemitism'/ sympathy for Palestine; this is already covered on his Wikipedia page. On Zscarpia's idea, I'm happy to hear more, but don't see how it would look at yet. Jontel (talk) 16:10, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, I have clarified my previous reply. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 15:53, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
- I did not suggest "a whole new article" on Corbyn and his 'antisemitism'/ sympathy for Palestine; this is already covered on his Wikipedia page. On Zscarpia's idea, I'm happy to hear more, but don't see how it would look at yet. Jontel (talk) 16:10, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
- Jontel, if Corbyn had stayed as a simple backbencher then they would not be notable enough to take up a significant chunk of the article. However, once he was elected leader, then his historical actions become more notable and relevant to this article. ZScarpia, while Corbyn's previous actions do take up a significant part of the article, they don't seem to take up enough to justify a whole new article. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 14:01, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
- Perhaps it would be better to have two articles, a "UK Labour Party antisemitism controversy" one, which the current article was originally clearly supposed to be about, and an "Antisemitism in the UK Labour Party" one, which covers the history of antisemitism in the Labour Party? ← ZScarpia 13:45, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks; perhaps I can be clearer to save time/ effort. I am not suggesting that the possible motives of the sources is a reason for the material on Corbyn's past actions and views prior to his becoming leader to be simply referenced via a link in this article to his page rather than being detailed at length. Nor, though, do I think that such material should be included in this article simply because it has been published. Rather, it is a question of its relevance to the subject of this article, as you suggest. Corbyn's actions and views as leader are unquestionably relevant to an article on the Labour Party. However, I suggest that his actions and views as a mere one of hundreds of backbenchers are much less so and need only be referred to with a link to his page, where they are covered, rather than detailed here. His impact as leader can be judged on the basis of his behaviour in that role, rather than his very long past history. Removing the duplication between the two articles will also help with the length of this one. Jontel (talk) 13:53, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
- The article focuses on the Corbyn content because that is what the sources focus on. We shouldn't remove relevant content because of perceived injustices in the sources. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 13:31, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
- Interesting. An objective of this campaign by some does appear to me to be to depose Corbyn, and this is not always explicit. Further to BobFromBrockley's comment, I propose that the material about Corbyn and alleged antisemitism prior to his election as leader i.e. 6.1, which is more about him than the Labour Party, is replaced by the statement that: 'Corbyn has been challenged on antisemitism in relation to associations and comments prior to his election as leader', with a link to his profile, which contains a significant section covering all the allegations. This would enable those interested to explore his past actions and views, while retaining the focus of the article on the organization, which is its subject. Jontel (talk) 12:02, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
- Let me clarify the idea I was floating. The current article started off as and is mainly about the current controversy, with historical detail added on. What I was envisaging is that the current article is retitled and the historical detail is moved to a new one. Therefore, there would be an article about the current controversy, which would be the current article modified, and another article which carries a long-term historical overview. The problem I was addressing was a slightly different one than whether the article concentrates too much on Jeremy Corbyn personally, but is related, that is, does the article concentrate too much on the current period. ← ZScarpia 09:36, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for explaining further. Yes, the article brings together three very distinct periods. A century ago, Britain ruled a quarter of the world and most European societies looked down on other cultures, religions and races, even after the removal of legal restrictions. Labour leaders were not immune to such ideas and had particular concerns about the impact of large scale immigration and the emerging power of finance capital, both of which had a strong Jewish component, even if such leaders were more sympathetic to Jews in general than society as a whole. Then there is the growing concern from the 1970s onwards about Israel/ Palestine, particularly as Britain played a prominent role in creating the situation. Finally, there is Corbyn's election as Labour party leader in 2015, leading to common cause amongst a right wing media, centrist Labour MPs and advocates of Israel's expansion that a (pro Palestinian) Corbyn government must be prevented, leading to a three year long media campaign to prevent it. I can certainly see these working better as separate articles. Jontel (talk) 11:15, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
- Icewhiz's comment below is illuminating with regard to the purpose of this article. "This article is a child article of Corbyn." ← ZScarpia 08:25, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
- This article primarily covers the 2015-2019 political crisis/scandal - which heavily involved Corbyn (though not just Corbyn). I'd support re-titling it. However if we are to turn this into an historic overview article on the issue (and trim the present-day political scandal) - then the present day political scandal will get its own article - which will leave us with two articles to wrangle over instead of one. Icewhiz (talk) 08:37, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
- Icewhiz's comment below is illuminating with regard to the purpose of this article. "This article is a child article of Corbyn." ← ZScarpia 08:25, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for explaining further. Yes, the article brings together three very distinct periods. A century ago, Britain ruled a quarter of the world and most European societies looked down on other cultures, religions and races, even after the removal of legal restrictions. Labour leaders were not immune to such ideas and had particular concerns about the impact of large scale immigration and the emerging power of finance capital, both of which had a strong Jewish component, even if such leaders were more sympathetic to Jews in general than society as a whole. Then there is the growing concern from the 1970s onwards about Israel/ Palestine, particularly as Britain played a prominent role in creating the situation. Finally, there is Corbyn's election as Labour party leader in 2015, leading to common cause amongst a right wing media, centrist Labour MPs and advocates of Israel's expansion that a (pro Palestinian) Corbyn government must be prevented, leading to a three year long media campaign to prevent it. I can certainly see these working better as separate articles. Jontel (talk) 11:15, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
- Let me clarify the idea I was floating. The current article started off as and is mainly about the current controversy, with historical detail added on. What I was envisaging is that the current article is retitled and the historical detail is moved to a new one. Therefore, there would be an article about the current controversy, which would be the current article modified, and another article which carries a long-term historical overview. The problem I was addressing was a slightly different one than whether the article concentrates too much on Jeremy Corbyn personally, but is related, that is, does the article concentrate too much on the current period. ← ZScarpia 09:36, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
- That reads as though it's in accord with the first three comments I wrote in this section. Hopefully a separate historical overview article would be reasonably tranquil. ← ZScarpia 09:36, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
- ZScarpia’s suggestion seems sensible to me. A historical overview article, where the post-2015 period would just be summarised in a paragraph. (The title of that article would be the title of the current article.) And an article on the controversy or affair which has unfolded since 2015, where much of the material in the current article would go.
Jeremy Corbyn vs. the Labour Party
I would like to pursue the point about whether the amount of material on Corbyn pre his leadership is WP:UNDUE in this article. I think there is some relevance but that the length is excessive, particularly as it is covered on his profile where it is available for reference. Moreover, reducing this section will contribute to reducing the overall length of the article, which I anticipate continuing to grow. Can I suggest we have a vote on this to clear it up by everyone putting these three options in order of preference with regard to section 6.1. in this article i.e. Events involving Jeremy Corbyn as a backbencher?
A Replace the section in this article with a sentence and link to the relevant section in his profile
B Replace the section in this article with the relevant section in his profile, resulting in the two articles having the same text regarding the period before he became leader. The section in his profile is shorter and was arrived at after some discussion and amendment amongst the editors involved.
C Leave section 6.1 unchanged. Jontel (talk) 15:56, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
Survey
- A, then B, then C. Thanks,♥ L'Origine du monde ♥ ♥ Talk♥ 04:53, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
- A, then B, then C in order of preference. That aspect is WP:UNDUE in several respects - it's WP:RECENTISM, with extensive focus on a controversy whose long-term impact isn't yet proven and which logically would only be a small part of the historical topic at the moment. Additionally, given the way Corbyn's article has been trimmed down, the version here ends up feeling like a WP:POVFORK - it doesn't really make sense to devote so much text and space to something that isn't WP:DUE that much attention even on the primary article for the subject. Beyond that, the whole section has become a bloated mess of editors trying to argue back and forth by dropping in every news story, reaction, counter-reaction, and so on; this is not a helpful or useful way to present the material to the reader. We're an encyclopedia, not a debate club; we provide a broad summary and overview, not an argument dozens of points in length trying to persuade the reader. --Aquillion (talk) 04:36, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
- C. Lets not kid ourselves - this a 2015-2019 political scandal, that mainly involves Jeremy Corbyn. This article is a child article of Corbyn, and is clearly more detailed that what is possible in Corbyn. Should this article be trimmed in regards to this highly covered and clearly notable scandal, per WP:PRESERVE and WP:SPLIT we would create Antisemitism scandals involving Jeremy Corbyn and/or 2015-present UK Labour party antisemitism scandal and/or place this material in Corbyn's article. I think we should stick to one article - this one - as opposed to creating a child article for Corbyn specifically (which would clearly pass WP:N). Icewhiz (talk) 06:26, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
- A At the end of the day this is either about Corbyn or the labour party.Slatersteven (talk) 10:21, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
- C of the options given C is the one I agree with. However if it's changed at all I would suggest instead of just being group under 6.1 the article should be moved into chronological order based on the date of the event. After all this is about Antisemitism in the Labour Party and these events are all valid for being on this page. If you think this page is to focused on Corbyn then instead of removing valid information with reliable sources, I suggest you add the missing information demonstrating that he is not the only person who has a history of it. If the page was in chronological order it would be simpler for people to slot in that additional information about other antisemitic Labour members/events. The information shouldn't just be removed as there is a lot there which is not included on Corbyn's page. Let's face it this crisis in Labour has come about due to Corbyn and his leadership, without him becoming leader with his history of supporting and turning a blind eye to anti-Jewish rhetoric would Labour be in the trouble it is? The crisis come out into the open when people started for the first time looking at the new leader and his background, before as a backbencher he was politically obscure and not given the political scrutiny or held to account for his actions. ThinkingTwice contribs | talk 15:27, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
- A There's events WP:UNDUE from early 2010s and then we jump to several years later to WP:RECENTISM. There's no sources of this for when these events happened whilst Ed Milliband (Labour's only Jewish leader) was leader. Ultimately, this content is about Jeremy Corbyn not Labour so should go there. RevertBob (talk) 11:14, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- A - It's WPUNDUE to include all of it. If not, use the better version of B. StudiesWorld (talk) 10:47, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
- C for now, but split article. This survey assumes the outcome of the conversation in the previous section. I think that ZScarpia's split proposal is very sensible and will make this edit unnecessary. The current material would be part of an article on the current Labour antisemitism crisis, where the focus would be on the post-2015 controversy around these events, but not be given much space in a more general Antisemitism in the UK Labour Party article. However, before that split occurs, it would be a disaster to remove this amount of well sourced noteworthy material. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:33, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
Discussion
While he is the party leader, his powers are constrained by those of the National Executive Committee, a formally independent disciplinary secretariat and, for much of this period, hostile staff and parliamentarians, so issues relating to the party are not entirely under his control. Nor is it suggested that he was highly influential when he was a backbencher.
So, I think there is a logic in separating his two roles, making this article about the Labour Party, including material relating to Corbyn's role as party leader in the handling of allegations of antisemitism in the Labour Party, while putting material relating to his backbencher Palestinian solidarity activity in his profile, while linking the two articles. Jontel (talk) 14:37, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
SYNTH/OR
- I just reverted this series of additions based on this section, since it would significantly expand an article that is already far too long, mostly by adding trivia or minor blow-by-blow commentary. My concern is that because this is a fraught topic, it constantly attracts people who want to add more and more detail to ensure that what they see as the correct "side" is properly-presented, which leads to the massive bloat described in this section. We should summarize important conclusions and key events, rather than going for a blow-by-blow that tries to convince the reader one way or another via sheer weight of arguments or by redundantly trying to cover every single person who weighed in at any point. (Also, as an aside, I disagree with the way several people were characterized in that edit - Jonathan Cook and Richard Seymour aren't described that way in the cited source; and it's not essential to their notability. Especially the digression with regards to Cook, which is long-winded and feels like a WP:SYNTHy way to call his position into question.) If people think one facet of the dispute over Labour is over-represented, I urge them to fix it by removing or condensing and summarizing some of the less significant stuff rather than adding more counter-punches or rebuttals - the article still has plenty of stuff that could be trimmed. --Aquillion (talk) 20:49, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with you on the WP:OR description of writers, but deleting massive chunks of new content which have been widely covered without any discussion on the talk page is not the way forward. Especially when those new sections don't contain any of the overly long quotes being complained about. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 20:55, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
User:Aquillion has made a major cut on the basis "rv; see discussion on talk about how this article is already mostly too long. A lot of these additions delve back into the back-and-forth by proxy that bloated this article to its current state and go beyond a WP:DUE summary; also, the characterizations of individuals are WP:SYNTH and don't reflect what makes them notable or how they're described in the sources cited". But curiously his cuts are all to recent events which do not favour Mr. Corbyn. This is a blatant example of WP:NNPOV and should be censured. Events are and have been happening - such as censure of the Chrakravarti report, the Labour peers who took out an advert in the Guardian, the BBC Panorama programme, the open letter form Jewish writers, etc. - all of which User:Aquillion has decided off their own bat to be irrelevant. They should not be excluded from the article because one editor objects to them - and certainly not without debate on this talk page. If the length is objected to, I can suggest other ways forward - eg. excision of comments by non-UK pundits, who are not germane to the debate.--Smerus (talk) 21:51, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
- Your additions were clearly pretty WP:BOLD (you significantly rewrote the first paragraph of the lead, and drastically expanded a lot of other sections), and, well... I reverted all your additions, so if you feel reverting them was WP:POV based on that, you're also impugning yourself for one-sided additions; if you think there are WP:POV problems with the article as it stands, you should make a section to discuss those so we can consider balance more broadly. Certainly you're correct in that adding a bunch of material that clearly takes one perspective on a topic, all at once, raises WP:POV issues that need to be discussed. But that's not the important point, since inclusion ultimately has to be decided by WP:DUE (though WP:BALANCE also matters, I suppose, which makes one-sided additions like your alarming if they might push the article unduly out of line with the general tenor of sources - but that would require a lot more discussion to assess, if that's your concern.) The lead isn't the place to give a blow-by-blow over the Chakrabati Inquiry; it's one relatively brief event in a larger timeline, so summarizing its conclusions is sufficient - more detail on it is given in its section in the article. And the lead of the article in particular has been the result of a lot of careful consensus-building, so you should be more cautious when rewriting it in such a drastic way (especially since, by your own admission, you were rewriting it on WP:POV / WP:NPOV grounds, something you have to have realized would be controversial.) Similarly, adding individual commentary by different people all fundamentally saying the same thing doesn't improve the article overall - we already summarize the point of view that those sections express, after all. More generally, this article isn't a universal timeline of every single event that occurs in relation to the topic - devoting an entire paragraph or section to every back-and-forth, every complaint anyone makes, and every criticism that gets published isn't appropriate. Most of the things you added are, comparatively speaking, trivia in the long term. --Aquillion (talk) 22:57, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
- I also think the additions were excessive. Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a newspaper so adding material that does not add anything by, for example, repeating existing commentary or that will be disregarded in a year or two, is probably not particularly helpful. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section The lead should summarize all the key points in the article in four paragraphs, so needs particularly careful composition. Jontel (talk) 05:53, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
- Just to clarify Aquillion and Jontel, you don't think the Panorama programme, where eight former staff made allegations about the handling of complaints in the party, is even worth mentioning in this article? Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 08:18, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
- I do not think it should be used because the significance of the various allegations by the ex staff are either not entirely clear or strongly contested and because their motives and those of the producers have been questioned. Moreover, some of the allegations seem to refer to quite some time ago. Getting into it would just open a huge debate. Jontel (talk) 10:01, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
- Just to clarify Aquillion and Jontel, you don't think the Panorama programme, where eight former staff made allegations about the handling of complaints in the party, is even worth mentioning in this article? Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 08:18, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
This article is already bloated with personal opinions. A line or two at best is all we need.Slatersteven (talk) 08:48, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
- Which personal opinions are you referring to? Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 09:16, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
- All of them, we have way to many "and in the opinion of" type comments, Historians, trade unionist, et all. This is just (in truth) largely a catalog of anecdotes (either for or against). We really do not need any more, there are police and equality investigations now, we do not need any more (especially anonymous) accusations.Slatersteven (talk) 09:42, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
- Some of Aquillon's edit removed opinion (the removal of Schama et al) and was justified because of the bloating of opinion material. (I'm not sure why other excess, non-noteworthy opinion material (Cook, Seymour) wasn't removed.) But some of it was factual material (Panorama). I think these need to be discussed separately.BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:43, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
- All of them, we have way to many "and in the opinion of" type comments, Historians, trade unionist, et all. This is just (in truth) largely a catalog of anecdotes (either for or against). We really do not need any more, there are police and equality investigations now, we do not need any more (especially anonymous) accusations.Slatersteven (talk) 09:42, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
There are two ongoing issues this article is seeking to cover: 1) historic antisemitism in the Labour party and 2) the current situation which is continually evolving with new events. Both of these are obfuscated in the article by giving detailed comments from third parties not especially qualified or relevant to comment on them; and also by the objection of some editors to tolerate some characterizations of the situation. As a consequence the article is becoming a battlefield rather than encyclopaedic. You can't imo cite the Chakrabarti Inquiry and its conclusions (especially in the lead) without indicating critiques of the enquiry. You can't just cite Jewish authors who deny antisemitism in the Party but delete references to those who claim it is there in the party. You can't just delete that 64 Labour peers have criticized Corbyn over this issue - it is part of the developing story, as is the Panorama programme. You can't comment on the EHRC investigation only by setting out criticism of the EHRC. Or, at least, you can't do all these things and have a balanced WP:NPOV article. The attitude of some editors seems to be that of a policeman saying "move along now, nothing happening here." That seems to me completely against the spirit of Wikipedia.--Smerus (talk) 16:30, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
- You have made some points: here is a response. 1) There are third party commentators on both sides, so removing some could well involve removing opposing voices. If any are definitely unqualified or irrelevant, you can say so, of course. 2) There are three critiques of the Chakrabarti report in 4.2. If people think that the report is not of any value, perhaps it should not be in the lead. 3) There are around 40 references to claimed antisemitism in the Labour Party in the article, expressed in various ways. Almost every action and statement contains that implication. However, accompanying all of them with further condemnatory quotes would become tedious. A focus on facts rather than opinion impoves NPOV. The rebuttal section is there to challenge the need for the actions and their implications. 4) The peers' advertisement is saying what the media, right wing Labour MPs and various others have been saying on a near weekly basis for 3 and a 1/2 years which is reflected in much of the article: it doesn't really add anything. It might warrant a brief mention. 5) On Panorama, as stated above, the claims have been strongly challenged and those involved criticised heavily. Any mention of the programme would need to bring that out. 6) The existence of the EHRC investigation is already being used to condemn the party; a critique of those involved is simply balance. 7) Many in the rebuttal section do feel that the scale and significance of any antisemitism in the Labour Party has been exaggerated and that both polls and inquiries have tended to back that view up. They accept that there are a few members making antisemitic comments on social media, just as there really were communist spies in 1950s America, but that the response has been excessive and intended by many protagonists to disrupt Labour's election chances. 8) As this has been a heavily reworked article, your best bet in making changes is to make small, short ones every so often, to give editors the opportunity to amend them, and to leave the lead until your changes elsewhere have stuck. Jontel (talk) 17:46, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
- But also you cannot do the reverse, you cannot claim X is antisemitic if X has denied it and not include the denial. That is why I say there is too much emphasis on allegations and opinion. We have to put both sides, then we have to have the rebuttal of the rebuttal, then the rebuttal of the rebuttal of the rebuttal ad nausiam.Slatersteven (talk) 17:00, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
- Well, one could (for example) agree on a format on the basis of event: statement of accusation: rebuttal - then leave it at that until something resolves it one way or the other. I agree that ongoing re-accusations and re-rebuttals of a particular situation add nothing. What I complain of is the elision of complete events.--Smerus (talk) 17:10, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
- But until we get the current article in a fit state I am sure sure expanding it is a good idea, issue such as recentism and undue already are issue here. the party that is over 100 years old well over a quarter the article is about the last two years. Hell the section on the Working definition of antisemitism takes up how many paragraphs?17:17, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
- Then the answer is to split the article on the lines I indicate above. One article on the history - which will be shortish. Another on the current events/disputes, as a current event, (as it is an unfolding situation) and which, like most current event articles, will indeed tend to sprawl unit it is over when it can be appropriately edited. At the moment we cannot know whether it will run and run, or will blow over with not much change; and we have to admit that we do not know this. We can't use this situation as an excuse not to record things we may not sympathize with. --Smerus (talk) 17:31, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
- That is called forking, and I am against it. The article should be about Antisemitism in the UK Labour Party, not allegations about one leader, not the last two or three years, and not every little incident. The article is bloated for that reason, a list of trivial incidents and unproven allegations with a smattering of genuine questionable incidents (that get drowned out by all the noise). NO forking it off is not the answer (that was what created this article in the first place, a fork to present the issue in more detail).Slatersteven (talk) 17:40, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
- Then the answer is to split the article on the lines I indicate above. One article on the history - which will be shortish. Another on the current events/disputes, as a current event, (as it is an unfolding situation) and which, like most current event articles, will indeed tend to sprawl unit it is over when it can be appropriately edited. At the moment we cannot know whether it will run and run, or will blow over with not much change; and we have to admit that we do not know this. We can't use this situation as an excuse not to record things we may not sympathize with. --Smerus (talk) 17:31, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
- But until we get the current article in a fit state I am sure sure expanding it is a good idea, issue such as recentism and undue already are issue here. the party that is over 100 years old well over a quarter the article is about the last two years. Hell the section on the Working definition of antisemitism takes up how many paragraphs?17:17, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
- Well, one could (for example) agree on a format on the basis of event: statement of accusation: rebuttal - then leave it at that until something resolves it one way or the other. I agree that ongoing re-accusations and re-rebuttals of a particular situation add nothing. What I complain of is the elision of complete events.--Smerus (talk) 17:10, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
I've requested a peer review to see if others have thoughts about how to improve the article, whether by deleting certain parts or by splitting the article. If you like, feel free to look at the list of other unanswered reviews here, improve one and then ask for someone to take a look at this page. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 18:33, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
- I support such a forking, to create two manageable articles, one of which (the historical one) will be stable quickly but needs expanding, and the other which will be controversial but is an important enough topic to have an article of its own.BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:43, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
RfC on inclusion of claims in Panorama documentary and 64 peers' letter (advertisement)
Should we include the content about the claims made by former staff in the recent Panorama programme and the 64 peers' letter (advertisement) to Labour? See the second paragraph in the "Claims by former Labour staff" section here and also the "Criticism of party from Labour peers" section in that same version. Furthermore, if the claims by the former staff are included, should they be covered in the lede? Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 18:39, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
Survey
- Covered and in the lede, although I'm not sure the peers' letter needs its own subsection, it could be folded into another paragraph somewhere. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 18:39, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
- Not in lede The other issues aside I am not sure that unsubstantiated and (largely?) anonymous accusations should be in the lede without also including rebuttals, and the lede is already bloated enough.Slatersteven (talk) 18:51, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
- and not anywhere if it is overly long or ignores any rebuttals. At best any of this deserves one line and then a rebuttal, and that is at best.Slatersteven (talk) 13:36, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- are you happy with the content in the main body from the edits linked to above? We could move the peers' letter to the "Resignation of MPs and peers" section and change it to "Reactions of ...." as I don't think it justifies a subsection of its own. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 18:24, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- Neither in neither as the peers' letter will have to be balanced by recent petition(s} in support of Corbyn while the staff allegations will require a rebuttal. More party infighting. Jontel (talk) 19:38, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
- They will only require a rebuttal if such counter-claims receive wide coverage. My reading of the current coverage, in mainstream outlets, is that there is only a perfunctory par the course quote of the Labour/Corbyn spokesperson denying there is an issue - which at most deserves a brief mention by us. Icewhiz (talk) 10:45, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- Covered and, subject to discussion, in the lede. The events like the peer's letter, the Panorama programme, (and indeed the letter from Simon Schama and other Jewish writers attacking the Labour Party, which an editor also deleted from the article), actually happened and can be substantiated by citations. If the Independent Group 9 MPs are in the lede, why not the comments of 64 Labour peers? All these matters are relevant to the topic and can't be randomly ignored on the basis of 'usubstantiated'. In the same way, the lede should be scrutinized for existing NNPOV presentations. Mentioning the Chakrabarti enquiry without noting that it was widely criticized suggests, in a POV fashion, that it can be accepted as fully adequate. I would say that the Panorama programme is a clear candidate for the lede; it came about as a consequence of the issue covered by the article; whether or not its allegations are substantiated (which time may tell) it is a part of the story. At the time of writing, there is nothing in the lede subsequent to February 2019 - it is positively misleading not to include anything since then. --Smerus (talk) 08:31, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- Include. Obviously include in body, in lede - probably should get a sentence. The BBC Panaroma program isn't too shabby by itself in terms of DUENESS. This initial reporting (secondary in and of itself) has been subsequently covered in a secondary fashion by multiple other secondary outlets over some period of time. Calls by Labour peers to investigate the Labour's antisemitism as well as resignations of three other peers due to Labour's antisemitism,[1] are clearly major developments in this ongoing political scandal. Icewhiz (talk) 10:43, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- Not in lede - lasting long-term historical impact is unproven, there are many reactions but only the ones that have proven lasting long-term historical impact are leadworthy. RevertBob (talk) 12:58, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- Exclude entirely; no indication of long-term impact. "This actually happened" isn't a valid argument for inclusion per WP:NOTINDISCRIMINATE; we don't cover every claim, counterclaim, and blow-by-blow, especially on an article that is already bloated and far too weighted towards WP:RECENTISM in terms of recent controversies (many of which have ultimately only played out over op-eds and which have had little measurable political impact.) This is the sort of thing that seems breathlessly important to partisans heavily involved in the subject at the time it comes out, and has absolutely zero long-term significance afterwards. --Aquillion (talk) 11:23, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
- Include it has to be included in the body as its evidence of the problem, how the crisis has actually played out inside the Labour party and the party's use of non-disclosure agreement's to try to silence former staff from even talking about it. The BBC Panaroma program is a reliable source which summaries the evidence of these witnesses. It should also be highlighted in the lead, as WP:lead is meant to be a summary of the most important contents. The 64 peers' letter is also clearly a significant development as it shows a significant push-back against the leadership's default position that they are handling it. ThinkingTwice contribs | talk 20:08, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
- Include Panorama in body; only include peers' letter if it can be shown to be noteworthy via coverage. The Panorama documentary is obviously noteworthy: it received sustained attention from the party before broadcast, who tried to gag it and briefed against it, and it was central to the news cycle for some time afterwards, generating lots of secondary coverage. I haven't seen this level of coverage of the peers' letter, so would only support inclusion if noteworthyness could be shown, although the significance of some of the signatories (major Labour figures) makes me receptive to that argument. Both are probably unneccesary in the lede, at least no more than a sentence. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:47, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
Discussion
I am not sure the issue is inclusion so much as to what degree. This is why the lede is a problem.Slatersteven (talk) 18:48, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
- Jontel, note that the original content contained a rebuttal from Labour: Labour Party officials sought to refute the programme's findings, claiming that the former party employees were "disaffected former officials" who had "both personal and political axes to grind". Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 19:49, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
This might be relevant if we're to include it. A new report from the Media Reform Coalition on the Panorama documentary. [2] also covered [3]. G-13114 (talk) 19:04, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
Finkelstein; citations
In the section 'Naz Shah and Ken Livingstone' I have removed a citation which did not refer to the text to which it was attached, and corrected the text to confirm with the other citation (which deals with the situation in May 2016, not the situation after Livingstone was expelled, and not, as the text claimed in a WP:OR fashion, "after the furore."). These corrections were reverted when another editor undid my edits because I also cut out the comments of Norman Finkelstein. As Finkelstein is an American academic not directly involved in the debate on Labour Party anti-semitism I should have thought that, as everyone agrees the article is too long, it could do without his gloss (and indeed with out the glosses of many others who seem to pad out the article, and always on the side of refuting the existence of a problem). But so it goes. I have however recorrected the text in the light of the citation.--Smerus (talk) 11:54, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- Finkelstein was the author of graphic that was shared by Shah so his comments are obviously relevant. RevertBob (talk) 13:00, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- Tend to agree, not sure why his view of his own material is not relevant.Slatersteven (talk) 13:22, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- I think his comment is relevant, as it is his graphic under discussion. Moreover, he is a political scientist who has written on Israel, Zionism and the misuse of antisemitism. If you are suggesting adopting a blanket policy of excluding non British commentators from this article, you should propose that formally, as there are others. Jontel (talk) 13:39, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- A scholar who had an tenure issues due to his work in the area... Finkelstein's reaction is predictable and has little bearing on antisemitism in Labour. What's relevant is actual RS coverage of Shah. Icewhiz (talk) 13:46, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- A notable academic whose views are relevant to the topic (as discussed numerous times) before which sourced by RS. RevertBob (talk) 14:54, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- Notable (in the context of this article) says who? He is a radical US academic, like Chomsky who is also a favourite to be cited in this article. Fascinating that according to some editors, it is OK to quote in this article Chomsky and Finkelstein and UK political activists who deny the existence of any problem, and not cite, or even mention, Schama, Sebag Montefiore, Howard Jacobson, 64 Labour peers and others when they say the problem exists. There is no doubt that the deniers are currently being privileged in this article as it stands, which makes it clearly WP:NNPOV.--Smerus (talk) 17:47, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- You say radical as if that is a negative trait? The thing is, Chomsky and Finkelstein are political scientists with a lot of experience on the subject whereas the three you mention are only popular authors/ TV writers with no particular expertise on the Labour Party or contemporary antisemitism. Moreover, they are quoted in 5.3, so do take the time to read the article. The resignation of peers is mentioned. Also, look at how many times the BoD, JLC, CST, JLM are quoted, plus Gerstenfeld, Lipstadt and others. Jontel (talk) 18:54, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- These are not all comparable. BoD, JLC, CST, JLM are major players in the story so vital to include for their actions. Gerstenfeld and Sebag Montefiore are commentators spouting opinions and should be deleted, along with Chomsky and Finkelstein, unless they are shown to be part of the story too (as Finkelstein is in relation to the Shah incident but not in relation to his opinions in the Rebuttals section).BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:06, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
- Jontel, it is absolutely unreasonable, (and rather rude to me), to suggest that I think of 'radical' as a negative trait. I sought to point out that radical commentators denying an antisemitism problem get a lot of space in this article, and non-radical commentators get edited out/objected to.--Smerus (talk) 11:04, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
- OTHERSTUFFDOESNTEXIST isn't a valid argument. RevertBob (talk) 18:16, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- I think we should have a clear consensus position as to which academics are included, but I can't see one which applies to the ones included in the article, or one which has been discussed on the talk page. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 18:20, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- As I've argued before, Finkelstein should be mentioned in the Naz Shah section because he was part of the story (she shared his graphic). However, his opinion is not relevant in the Rebuttals section (he currently appears not once but twice, under Academics and under Journalists), as he has no particular expertise or relevance and there is no extensive secondary coverage of his opinion. An RFC closed five months ago by Barkeep49 concluded that there was consensus to include NF in the Shah section but no consensus to include him in the Rebuttals section[4] so I think we need to just delete him from the latter and leave him alone in the former.BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:06, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
- You say radical as if that is a negative trait? The thing is, Chomsky and Finkelstein are political scientists with a lot of experience on the subject whereas the three you mention are only popular authors/ TV writers with no particular expertise on the Labour Party or contemporary antisemitism. Moreover, they are quoted in 5.3, so do take the time to read the article. The resignation of peers is mentioned. Also, look at how many times the BoD, JLC, CST, JLM are quoted, plus Gerstenfeld, Lipstadt and others. Jontel (talk) 18:54, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- Notable (in the context of this article) says who? He is a radical US academic, like Chomsky who is also a favourite to be cited in this article. Fascinating that according to some editors, it is OK to quote in this article Chomsky and Finkelstein and UK political activists who deny the existence of any problem, and not cite, or even mention, Schama, Sebag Montefiore, Howard Jacobson, 64 Labour peers and others when they say the problem exists. There is no doubt that the deniers are currently being privileged in this article as it stands, which makes it clearly WP:NNPOV.--Smerus (talk) 17:47, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- A notable academic whose views are relevant to the topic (as discussed numerous times) before which sourced by RS. RevertBob (talk) 14:54, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- A scholar who had an tenure issues due to his work in the area... Finkelstein's reaction is predictable and has little bearing on antisemitism in Labour. What's relevant is actual RS coverage of Shah. Icewhiz (talk) 13:46, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- I think his comment is relevant, as it is his graphic under discussion. Moreover, he is a political scientist who has written on Israel, Zionism and the misuse of antisemitism. If you are suggesting adopting a blanket policy of excluding non British commentators from this article, you should propose that formally, as there are others. Jontel (talk) 13:39, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
- Tend to agree, not sure why his view of his own material is not relevant.Slatersteven (talk) 13:22, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
Advert by 64 Labour Peers
64 Labour Peers took out an advertisement in the Guardian in July, the text of which included "The Labour Party welcomes everyone* irrespective or race, creed, gender identity, or sexual orientation (*except, it seems, Jews) This is your legacy, Mr Corbyn." The advertisement was a consequence of the perceived antisemitism within the Labour Party. I believe this should be mentioned in the article. Others apparently don't, and RevertBob has asked me to make a case for its inclusion. I hereby do so and welcome all comments.
My case is simply that it happened, is significant, is relevant to the topic (having its origins in the debate about antisemitism in the Party), and can be reliably sourced; further more that it indicates that there is dissent within the Party as to existence or non-existence of antisemitism in the party and that some leading figures in the Party believe that the blame for not dealing with this lies with the Party leadership. All this is relevant to an evaluation of the issue which the article seeks to cover.
I previously mentioned this development in the article and an editor deleted it (without discussion on this talkpage). --Smerus (talk) 11:16, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
- Strongly oppose inclusion. Comments, advertisements, and other expressions of opinion on the topic are not automatically notable. If you want to include it, show that it has had some form of long-term impact or significance. --Aquillion (talk) 11:26, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
- I presume RevertBob was referring to the three authors as there is already a live RfC on the advert of the peers, as you know. See above. Please do not start parallel discussions as that is just confusing and inefficient. From the suggested text, Absolutelypuremilk is talking when he writes of a peers' letter about the ad from the 64 peers, not the previous letter from the four peers offering to advise on disciplinary procedures. (talk) 11:32, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
- That's correct, so far (unless I haven't spotted it), no one has different opinions on the peers' letter and the Panorama program, i.e. people are in favour of inclusion of both or exclusion of both. Happy to split the RfCs if someone does though. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 14:56, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
Clearly relevant - very wide national British coverage and continuing coverage of a push to hold a no confidence vote - BBC, Guardian. Baroness Hayter was sacked from the shadow cabinet for saying Corbyn's team handling of the situation was similar to the "last days of Hitler".[5] So clearly we have ramifications here beyond just the advert itself. Icewhiz (talk) 12:10, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
- I agree, worthy of inclusion - doesn't have to be a whole paragraph or subsection, but has gained enough coverage to be noteworthy. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 14:56, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
- I see the ad as a disingenuous exercise in empty condemnation by unelected political opponents who are members of a body which Labour is planning to abolish, failing to offer evidence, analysis, understanding or solutions, and just one of very many. Oppose its inclusion. Jontel (talk) 16:09, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
This is being discussed in at least two other threads, we do not need a third.Slatersteven (talk) 17:05, 22 July 2019 (UTC)
- A great effort successfully removed, unless I'm mistaken, the evidence that 12 British Holocaust survivors had written an open letter in praise of Corbyn (12 Shoah survivors pen open letter: ‘Corbyn’s bent over backwards to help Jews’). Now we have the argument that what 64 Labour Peers think of him must be included. Why are unelected peers' views about Corbyn's hostility to Jews notable, whereas the views of a group of Shoah survivors are not worthy of mention? Double standards again.
- We're repeating here once more the same thing that occurred in the 2014 Gaza war. 327 Shoah survivors and their descendants wrote an open letter of protest to the New York Times condemning the massacre and calling for a boycott.( Holocaust survivors condemn Israel for ‘Gaza Massacre’, Call for Boycott,' Haaretz 23 August 2014) This was added, repeatedly edited out, and now readers who look up Reactions to the 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict in the Holocaust survivors section will be informed that Holocaust survivors all jumped to support Israel and were alarmed about anti-Semitism. Well done, once more, as NPOV is interpreted by numerous editors as giving only one unified 'ethnonationalist' story, and suppressing anything dissonant with the political message.Nishidani (talk) 19:31, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
JC (2015): "Respectable position on Israel."
From before the election of Jeremy Corbyn as Labour Leader, a 2015 Daniel Finkeltein article from The Jewish Chronicle:
The Jewish Chronicle - Daniel Finkelstein - Why is Labour so placid?, 13 August 2015: The election of Jeremy Corbyn as leader would not be a problem for the Labour Party. It would be a debacle. A catastrophe. A calamity. A disaster. ... What is hard to cope with is not so much a leader who won't be elected prime minister, but one whom mainstream members of the party cannot honourably vote for themselves. ... While Ed Miliband was not wildly popular with most Jews, he took a respectable position on Israel. It wasn't one I shared, and I was heavily critical of it. It even outraged many members of the community, who were bitterly disappointed with his position on the last Gaza action. It was, however, a respectable position, for all its faults. Jeremy Corbyn is in a different place altogether. He shares the virulent anti-Zionism of the hard left. One that seeks to make Israel a pariah state. One that treats Israel as if it were the central cause of all foreign affairs problems. One that treats with Hamas and is friendly to Hizbollah.
← ZScarpia 18:29, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
Electoral performance in areas with dense Jewish population - section title
This is quite a long title, and not entirely accurate as Jews only comprise a small minority, perhaps under a quarter, I suppose, even in these constituencies. How about 'Electoral performance in 'Jewish' constituencies' or 'Electoral performance for Jewish concentrations' or 'Electoral performance for Jewish clusters' ? or perhaps there are other suggestions. Jontel (talk) 10:10, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
- I added that header as it's the language used in the source, but any of those proposals are fine with me. Bellowhead678 (talk) 17:08, 28 July 2019 (UTC)