Realskeptic (talk | contribs) →This article is not neutal. It is very one sided. Period.: circular reasoning, reliable sources and criminal accusations |
|||
Line 76: | Line 76: | ||
::: Couldn't have said it better myself. RE: "fringe", no one is "calling" you anything. Please review [[WP:FRINGE]] to see WP's policy on treatment of fringe views. [[User:DoctorJoeE|<font color="green">DoctorJoeE</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/DoctorJoeE|<sup><font color="maroon">review transgressions</font></sup>]]/[[User talk:DoctorJoeE|<font color="maroon"><sub>talk to me!</sub></font>]] 15:10, 21 November 2015 (UTC) |
::: Couldn't have said it better myself. RE: "fringe", no one is "calling" you anything. Please review [[WP:FRINGE]] to see WP's policy on treatment of fringe views. [[User:DoctorJoeE|<font color="green">DoctorJoeE</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/DoctorJoeE|<sup><font color="maroon">review transgressions</font></sup>]]/[[User talk:DoctorJoeE|<font color="maroon"><sub>talk to me!</sub></font>]] 15:10, 21 November 2015 (UTC) |
||
::: With respect, it is circular reasoning to say criminal accusations deemed [http://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e6220 unworthy of investigation] for inconclusive evidence are somehow vindicated by self-published content on the accuser's personal website. It is further circular reasoning to suggest that even if those unreliable, self-published sources you cited to dispute Lewis' book didn't exist, that his book would somehow be wrong anyway. Lewis' book is a reliable source per [[WP:RS]] and [[WP:MEDRS]]; it belongs in the article. The blog and accuser's personal website you cited to dispute it are not, even though the latter is heavily relied on for material throughout the page. It doesn't matter if they appear to make a convincing case, Wikipedia is not the place for content based on novel conclusions that favor unreliable sources over reliable ones. This is especially true when it involves a living person accused of a crime for which they have never convicted, let alone formally charged. [[User:Realskeptic|Realskeptic]] ([[User talk:Realskeptic|talk]]) 16:10, 23 November 2015 (UTC) |
::: With respect, it is circular reasoning to say criminal accusations deemed [http://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e6220 unworthy of investigation] for inconclusive evidence are somehow vindicated by self-published content on the accuser's personal website. It is further circular reasoning to suggest that even if those unreliable, self-published sources you cited to dispute Lewis' book didn't exist, that his book would somehow be wrong anyway. Lewis' book is a reliable source per [[WP:RS]] and [[WP:MEDRS]]; it belongs in the article. The blog and accuser's personal website you cited to dispute it are not, even though the latter is heavily relied on for material throughout the page. It doesn't matter if they appear to make a convincing case, Wikipedia is not the place for content based on novel conclusions that favor unreliable sources over reliable ones. This is especially true when it involves a living person accused of a crime for which they have never convicted, let alone formally charged. [[User:Realskeptic|Realskeptic]] ([[User talk:Realskeptic|talk]]) 16:10, 23 November 2015 (UTC) |
||
:::: I'm genuinely interested: in what way do you believe that "Science for Sale" meets [[WP:MEDRS]]? [[User:Kolbasz|Kolbasz]] ([[User talk:Kolbasz|talk]]) 19:13, 23 November 2015 (UTC) |
|||
== For editors reverting my edits, please discuss here == |
== For editors reverting my edits, please discuss here == |
Revision as of 19:13, 23 November 2015
This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
||||
This article is not neutal. It is very one sided. Period.
Subject line says it all in that it is as if a "science only" radical has witten it with their beliefs only in mind...and I don't mean to imply that studies that show vaccines are not all that safe is "non-science", but the radicals paint it that way, and apparently wrote this article. Neutral studies are hard to come by when money rules the entire world. (hopefully you do know what I mean by that) Please get this fixed and write this in a neutral manner. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.27.192.226 (talk) 00:34, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- Please read WP:UNDUE and WP:MEDRS. Dbrodbeck (talk) 01:06, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- If you have a reliable source that has not been reflected, please provide it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:15, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- Also read WP:NPOV, neutral here does not mean neutral as you seem to think it does Cannolis (talk) 21:12, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you mean by saying that it is not neutral? The article is stating the facts: it has been proven that his research was fraudulent and that he was found guilty. Since there is no doubt about this, we cannot state that "perhaps he was right" when the evidence is pointing otherwise. BeŻet (talk) 15:38, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- Fraud allegations have been utterly abandoned http://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e6220 Realskeptic (talk) 03:21, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
- That source actually says the exact opposite of what you claim. Fraud allegations are maintained by the BMJ! jps (talk) 03:23, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
- It concluded that “the net result [from an investigation] would likely be an incomplete set of evidence and an inconclusive process costing a substantial sum of money.” Ergo there is no fraud; there is not even an investigation of fraud - only unsubstantiated claims by journal editors. Realskeptic (talk) 03:51, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
- The BMJ has not retracted their claim that Wakefield committed fraud. jps (talk) 03:53, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
- Are we reading the same words? Your source says that University College London decided not to have an independent investigation of Wakefield's case despite the BMJ calling for it to be done. Cannolis (talk) 14:29, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
- It concluded that “the net result [from an investigation] would likely be an incomplete set of evidence and an inconclusive process costing a substantial sum of money.” Ergo there is no fraud; there is not even an investigation of fraud - only unsubstantiated claims by journal editors. Realskeptic (talk) 03:51, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
- That source actually says the exact opposite of what you claim. Fraud allegations are maintained by the BMJ! jps (talk) 03:23, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
- Fraud allegations have been utterly abandoned http://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e6220 Realskeptic (talk) 03:21, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
Realskeptic is blocked, but it doesn't seem like they have even read the article and its sources. They are just cherrypicking something and adding their own interpretation, and totally ignoring all the evidence of fraud. If this can happen, then the article may need to be tightened up to make it clearer. He "showed callous disregard for any distress or pain the children might suffer"[1] -- {{u|BullRangifer}} {Talk}
04:35, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
- Just for 24 hours - I have read it, the university chose not to investigate because an investigation would be unlikely to lead to conclusive evidence regarding BMJ's accusation. It is therefore wrong to call the paper fraudulent based on that re WP:NPOV. Realskeptic (talk) 03:29, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- Possibly you have not noticed that the British Medical Council carried out an investigation and found fraud in Wakefield's research paper and in his financial transactions. The college made clear that they would not re-investigate a matter that was already closed. The Lancet journal also stated that they were "deceived". Marmadale (talk) 08:02, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
- We document what RS say, and they all say it was fraudulent for very good reasons. That's good enough reason for us to use their words.
- The list of offenses which justify the label "fraudulent" is long. He really screwed it all up in every way possible, from exposing children to painful and unnecessary tests, to falsifying the numbers, to having a serious and undisclosed financial conflict of interest.
- You need to WP:Drop the stick before you get banned for not being here to build an encyclopedia. -- BullRangifer (talk) 07:37, 14 November 2015 (UTC)'
- The court decision quoted at the end of the introduction also overturned the GMC's findings concerning the ethics and the patient selection described in the paper. What the college refused to investigate were the wholly separate allegations of data fabrication, which have never been found proved in any legally binding decision. Also, my response is only for comments from editors who adhere toWP:AGF. Realskeptic (talk) 08:09, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- I have looked for some time and have not been able to find any court opinions overturning the medical board's findings against Andrew Wakefield, or any sources referring to one. The opinion you seem to be referring to is about a different author who performed a different role in the research. The findings against Wakefield stand (the medical council made a statement saying so), as do any number of reliable sources, including the Lancet journal itself. You may not like this, but this is an encyclopedia. Marmadale (talk) 09:43, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- I have to come in here because I started to edit WP since I am interested in Medical history and this article is out of date. Which I think is why some editors think it is bias. A bit of background. The GMC is not a court of law. The Wakefield case went on for two years because they allowed so much 'hearsay evidence'. Think Realskeptic is referring to the court of law case of Professor John Walker-Smith. The law courts use forensics ( i.e. establishing who did did what, when and where – but not on hearsay). Walker-Smith was able to establish from written evidence that he alone orded the tests on these children based on sound clinical need. i.e., The children would have undergone them anyway. Some background : Abnormalities in these findings, hitherto unrecorded, lead Wakefield to formulate his hypothesize (right or wrong) of Ileal-lymphoid-nodular hyperplasia, non-specific colitis, and pervasive developmental disorder in children. It is therefore, putting the cart before the horse to revers this order of things and time-lines as the GMC clumsily did. So whilst I have no objections to the article mentioning the GMC findings, we as as encyclopedia, should include and put into context (via our verifiable sources) to point what has since come to light and discovered in the passage of time. Wakefield did not, subject these children “to unnecessary invasive medical procedures such as...” He did not have that power. The article lead reads back to front.--Aspro (talk) 18:46, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, that decision is what I am talking about, and you're absolutely right. The matter is further discussed in the book Science for Sale, in which Wakefield tried unsuccessfully to have his paper reinstated. Not only that, but there is also the issue of the fabrication allegations which are strictly editorial in nature and are heavily disputed by Wakefield's critics and former colleagues, not just Wakefield. Yet this is also nowhere to be found in the article. Also, tying his name to a "discredited hypothesis" and even infectious disease deaths raises serious WP:NPOV and WP:BLP issues. Clearly, the subject has a lot of hostile critics including some Wikipedia editors here, but this article should not be written from their perspective. I have made changes to the intro accordingly, but the entire article looks like it needs to be heavily rewritten IMHO. Realskeptic (talk) 03:36, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- Well if you think the LA Times and Washington Post are controlled by the CDC [1] I can certainly understand why you'd feel that way. --NeilN talk to me 04:21, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- Do we have to go through this yet again? The hospital's clinicians and pathology service found nothing to implicate MMR in Wakefield's patients, but Wakefield repeatedly changed, misreported and misrepresented diagnoses, histories and descriptions of the children, which made it appear that there was a link. So yes, Wakefield did indeed subject the children to unnecessary invasive procedures, because he fabricated the indications for them. The argument that Wakefield bears no responsibility because Walker-Smith wrote the actual orders is ridiculous; he wouldn't have ordered the tests if Wakefield had not manipulated the data to make them appear to be clinically or experimentally indicated.DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 04:40, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- Well if you think the LA Times and Washington Post are controlled by the CDC [1] I can certainly understand why you'd feel that way. --NeilN talk to me 04:21, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- With respect, you are confabulating. In the UK medical treatment is free but has to come out of a tight NHS budget. The consultant has to decide if a patient shows signs of colitis and warrants investigation (lots of doc's refer patients but he has to pick and choose based on his clinical experience). Therefore, this particular accusation against Wakefield is now moot (Moot: In legal terms - no longer practically applicable). Give an example: Got referred to King's College Hospital, Denmark Hill, London, about a decade ago for suspected xxxxx. Even I thought the preliminary diagnose was possibly right, but the consultant reassured me at the examination itself, that in his professional opinion the suspected diagnosis did not apply in my case. That was a relief but if it had happened in say America, I would have still been subjected to many expensive tests, - just to make sure. You may be able to subject patients to unnecessary, invasive (and profitable) tests but not in the `UK you wont! So, as this happened in the UK and the Law Court found that these children’s did indeed fall within the ethical guidelines, the accusations Wakefield on this point are now moot. Therefore, please stop concatenating Wakefield's own work on Ileal-lymphoid-nodular hyperplasia to the children's examination for colitis - OK? The article should reflect this to meet Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. We are suppose to be an encyclopedia (?) not a mouthpiece for any journalist that has not bothered to digest the whole thing.--Aspro (talk) 16:20, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- Again, we document what RS say, and the GMC had this to say about Wakefield: He "showed callous disregard for any distress or pain the children might suffer"[1]
- You are not going to be allowed to violate NPOV by deleting that. It is properly sourced and accurate. There is no BLP violation, but your continual defense of fringe POV and their pushers here is a bit tiring. -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:35, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- Quite so. And with all respect, it is you (or whatever blogger you are following) who is "confabulating". The GMC found that Wakefield committed “serious professional misconduct,” which included acting outside ethical guidelines and in ways otherwise not in the clinical interests of disabled children, and no Law Court has ever said anything different because the decision was not appealed, on the advice of Wakefield's own counsel. Walker-Smith's ruling says nothing about that either, if that's what you were going to say next. The Judge ruled that the GMC didn’t adequately explain the rationale behind its findings that Walker-Smith committed professional misconduct, and did not absolve him of that misconduct. I've been meaning to expand this page's FAQ section, since this has been hashed over so many times; I hope I can find time to do it in the near future. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 18:08, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- With respect, you are confabulating. In the UK medical treatment is free but has to come out of a tight NHS budget. The consultant has to decide if a patient shows signs of colitis and warrants investigation (lots of doc's refer patients but he has to pick and choose based on his clinical experience). Therefore, this particular accusation against Wakefield is now moot (Moot: In legal terms - no longer practically applicable). Give an example: Got referred to King's College Hospital, Denmark Hill, London, about a decade ago for suspected xxxxx. Even I thought the preliminary diagnose was possibly right, but the consultant reassured me at the examination itself, that in his professional opinion the suspected diagnosis did not apply in my case. That was a relief but if it had happened in say America, I would have still been subjected to many expensive tests, - just to make sure. You may be able to subject patients to unnecessary, invasive (and profitable) tests but not in the `UK you wont! So, as this happened in the UK and the Law Court found that these children’s did indeed fall within the ethical guidelines, the accusations Wakefield on this point are now moot. Therefore, please stop concatenating Wakefield's own work on Ileal-lymphoid-nodular hyperplasia to the children's examination for colitis - OK? The article should reflect this to meet Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. We are suppose to be an encyclopedia (?) not a mouthpiece for any journalist that has not bothered to digest the whole thing.--Aspro (talk) 16:20, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- Aspro is making a more elementary error. In good faith, though. What he, or she, is saying is at best original research. All the surmises about the medical board accepting 'hearsay' (where's the source for that?), and pronouncements about the court (sources?), are all him/her just saying. I think the error is worse than that: attempting to impose him/herself into the judicial process to move an opinion for one doctor over into an opinion for another. Not wanting to confound the problem, that isn't permissible. The court did not re-hear the case. It reviewed the opinions of the medical board, and found them defective for lack of explanatory information, plus a number of errors on particular issues, regarding the pediatrician. Wakefield's verdicts - and they are not all ethical, but are also about dishonesty - all stand for WP unless someone can come up with proper sources - which would not be a blog or an anti-vax campaigner - saying enough to override all the RSs, and plenty more, cited already. There seems to me to be countless sources on the fraud and everything else. Marmadale (talk) 19:40, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- That is essentially what we have said repeatedly in response to several waves of similar criticism, as documented in the archives. Fringe advocates need to calm down, read WP:OR, and try to conceptualize the fact that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia -- one that only collects and collates what other reliable sources have already published. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 23:58, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- It is exactly because WP is an an encyclopedia that this issue needs to be addressed. The journalist (BR) was never asked to testify in person and be open to cross examination- so that is hearsay by definition. Did time suddenly stop still at the the GMC pontification? John Snow was actually dead by the time his germ theory was accepted. Blood letting continued after the first controlled showed that the risk/benefit was negative. Medical history is built on slow acceptance that things have to improve. Another examples, Joseph Lister, 1st Baron Lister, Barry Marshall. History is lettered with examples of gifted medical men challenging orthodoxy. Ie I am not anti-vaccination any more than am against someone getting bled to-day because they can't excrete enough iron. We either trust doctors RS (reliable souses) or we believe ( belief: accepting without proof) their jobs-worth administrators (in this case the GMC) that believes gospel, that a medical untrained journalist (with little track record) knows best (a one off verifiable source ) !!! You can have it both ways because that’s a Non sequitur. Like me, you may only be left with two brains cells still working but do let them talk to each other. If you want to stick to RS then why not from a Medical PhD's with a better track record than the original medically untrained journalist?
- Therefore, this article is out of date for the reasons of BLP. Lets have some VS and RS from trained and experienced research doctors such as : David L. Lewis PhD
- "Similarly, I spent almost two years obtaining and analysing the U.K General Medical Council's (GMC's) confidential documents behind allegations of research misconduct that Brian Deer and the British Medical Journal (BMJ) published against Dr. Andrew Wakefield. I the process, I discovered a document showing that the analysis of patient records that Deer published in 2010 perfectly matches an analysis requested by GMC proceeding four years earlier. The analysis, which Deer published in the BMJ, was the result of a deliberate plan by individuals working for the GMC's to conflate a blinded expert analysis of biopsy slides with routine pathology reports to make it appear that Wakefield had misinterpreted the records to link to MMR vaccine to autism. What the GMC lawyers could probably never get away with in the court room – which was to condemn Andrew Wakefield for research fraud – Deer accomplished by publishing the GMC's convoluted analysis in the BMJ." Prologue XIX, Science for sale by David L. Lewis PhD
- If any one of you go up against a disciplinary hearing wouldn’t you what the facts to be considered rather than hearsay? This is what has put the shivers up the spines of many medical researchers. Time has shown that the GMC committee deliberations where not reliable (RS) of (forensically) ascertaining who did what and when. Yet this article suggests that 'his 'guilt' is cut and a closed thing (as in law).
- David L. Lewis seems to have misunderstood or misinterpreted the records and analysis; Deer and others argue credibly (e.g. here or here) that – far from rehabilitating Wakefield – the documents Lewis 'discovered' make Wakefield look even worse, and that Lewis doesn't seem to be competent to make the assertions he has. I have not seen anyone suggest that Lewis is a reliable expert source for claims made in Wikipedia, either. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:50, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Aspro, you wrote: "If any one of you go up against a disciplinary hearing wouldn’t you what the facts to be considered rather than hearsay?" Most definitely!!! And that makes Wakefield's behavior during the "trial" proceedings odd, if one doesn't realize he is always driven by a profit motive. Why didn't Wakefield defend himself during the "trial"? Wakefield did not defend himself at the time he should have done so.
- Instead of correcting erroneous statements and charges made against him, he remained (relatively) silent and used his time to write a book, using as the title (Callous Disregard) one of the most serious charges (of child abuse) made against him. That's grotesque and unconscionable. Only someone without a conscience could do that. It's like a country taking the anniversary of its worst defeat in battle and making it a national holiday to celebrate, as if the occurrence had been a victory! Talk about revisionism.
- IIRC, he released the book on the same day the judgment against him was announced. The guy has a knack for marketing himself! If that book contained any legitimate defense, he should have presented it during the proceedings, but he didn't. Why? Because his "defense" would not stand up to real scrutiny. He knew that he wouldn't be able to fool the professionals trying him, but in a book for the public he could fool all those anti-vaxxers who were idolizing him, and who still fund his travels, speaking engagements, writings, and lifestyle. He still milks them for all he can squeeze out of their gullible souls.
- All through his fraudulent "study" of ONLY 12 children, he had a profit motive driving him in several ways. Then when he was first going to publish his results, he immediately, before publication, used science by press conference to unethically announce the results and start a scare with horrible consequences for many children who needlessly got sick and/or died, but with enormous profits and fame to himself. Much later, when he reached the point where his fraud would be exposed and he lost his medical license, he maintained focus on that goal of making a profit. He is rightly considered one of the greatest medical frauds of the 20th century. -- BullRangifer (talk) 06:51, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- Wakefield did not defend himself during the hearing because his position was indefensible, and he would have been cut to pieces on cross-exam. His own counsel recommended this. But TenOfAllTrades is correct that this is not a chat forum; let's stick to discussions on improving the article. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 15:23, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- David L. Lewis seems to have misunderstood or misinterpreted the records and analysis; Deer and others argue credibly (e.g. here or here) that – far from rehabilitating Wakefield – the documents Lewis 'discovered' make Wakefield look even worse, and that Lewis doesn't seem to be competent to make the assertions he has. I have not seen anyone suggest that Lewis is a reliable expert source for claims made in Wikipedia, either. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:50, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- To included your second source from the journalist himself as justification is Circular reasoning. Is Orac ( your first RS ). Can he be-considered RS this particular case (prolific perhaps but does that equal reliability since he appearer to irritated BR word for word)? That is attempting to doubly reinforcing the fallacy. Do you see what I 'am getting at? Argumentum ad populum like this does not have a place on WP. --Aspro (talk) 19:26, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think you understand what "circular reasoning" is, despite your link to it—a detailed response and point-by-point rebuttal to Lewis' unsupported and unsupportable assertions isn't inherently circular, even if written by Brian Deer. I'm not arguing that we should include these sources in the Wikipedia article, so WP:RS doesn't enter into it. (There's no need for them, as there's no way that Lewis' tremendously defective and unreliable book will be used as a source.) I thought you – or other editors here – might find them informative, and useful to dispel the canard that there is some sort of conspiracy driven by Deer, the BMJ, or some shadowy Big Pharma string-pullers.
- Having said that, I'm not planning on getting sucked into (further) misuse of this talk page as a chat forum. If you would like to propose changes/updates to the Wikipedia article based on genuinely reliable sources I would be glad to engage with that discussion. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:01, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
- Couldn't have said it better myself. RE: "fringe", no one is "calling" you anything. Please review WP:FRINGE to see WP's policy on treatment of fringe views. DoctorJoeE review transgressions/talk to me! 15:10, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
- With respect, it is circular reasoning to say criminal accusations deemed unworthy of investigation for inconclusive evidence are somehow vindicated by self-published content on the accuser's personal website. It is further circular reasoning to suggest that even if those unreliable, self-published sources you cited to dispute Lewis' book didn't exist, that his book would somehow be wrong anyway. Lewis' book is a reliable source per WP:RS and WP:MEDRS; it belongs in the article. The blog and accuser's personal website you cited to dispute it are not, even though the latter is heavily relied on for material throughout the page. It doesn't matter if they appear to make a convincing case, Wikipedia is not the place for content based on novel conclusions that favor unreliable sources over reliable ones. This is especially true when it involves a living person accused of a crime for which they have never convicted, let alone formally charged. Realskeptic (talk) 16:10, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
For editors reverting my edits, please discuss here
Thanks. Realskeptic (talk) 04:03, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- See Historical revisionism and Talk:Andrew_Wakefield/Archive_2#Helpful_source.3F. --NeilN talk to me 04:12, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- NeilN, it's pretty obvious that Realskeptic is not here to build an encyclopedia, but rather to push fringe opinions. They have been warned about discretionary sanctions, but have not heeded them. It's time for a block to prevent them from wasting more of our time. -- BullRangifer (talk) 04:19, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- They've been blocked for 1 week by another admin. Those who wish to change the narrative of the article have to know by now that unilateral edits won't stick. Either propose smaller changes on the talk page and get consensus or start a RFC. --NeilN talk to me 04:26, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- NeilN, this latest disruption and edit warring has happened immediately after returning from their block, so a longer block is warranted. Maybe a topic ban as well, all under discretionary sanctions. There is no need for any longer process. You have the power and right to do something to protect Wikipedia. Otherwise "discretionary sanctions" has no meaning at all. -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:39, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- @BullRangifer: I cannot act as an admin on this page. My prior edits and talk page posts make me involved. --NeilN talk to me 16:48, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- (ec) The ratio of constructive to counterproductive edits in Realskeptic's history doesn't fill me with confidence, and I expect that after his current one-week block Realskeptic will almost certainly return to making tendentious edits to this page and others related to vaccination—but I am always willing to be pleasantly surprised. Right now we're enjoying at least a one-week reprieve from his disruptive editing, and if he resumes it when he returns, the WP:AE filing will be very straightforward. In the meantime, carry on. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:50, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- NeilN, I now see that you were referring to a second block. I didn't notice that. I also understand your "involved" situation. -- BullRangifer (talk) 17:05, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- NeilN, this latest disruption and edit warring has happened immediately after returning from their block, so a longer block is warranted. Maybe a topic ban as well, all under discretionary sanctions. There is no need for any longer process. You have the power and right to do something to protect Wikipedia. Otherwise "discretionary sanctions" has no meaning at all. -- BullRangifer (talk) 16:39, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- They've been blocked for 1 week by another admin. Those who wish to change the narrative of the article have to know by now that unilateral edits won't stick. Either propose smaller changes on the talk page and get consensus or start a RFC. --NeilN talk to me 04:26, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- NeilN, it's pretty obvious that Realskeptic is not here to build an encyclopedia, but rather to push fringe opinions. They have been warned about discretionary sanctions, but have not heeded them. It's time for a block to prevent them from wasting more of our time. -- BullRangifer (talk) 04:19, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
- ^ a b "General Medical Council, Fitness to Practise Panel Hearing, 24 May 2010, Andrew Wakefield, Determination of Serious Professional Misconduct" (PDF). General Medical Council. Retrieved 18 September 2011.