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: I agree with both Nableezy and Greyshark, that the terms "[[Land of Israel]]" and "[[Palestine (region)]]" are ill defined, but in my opinion that is not a problem and the article, whatever it be called, could include all synagogues in the area, loosely interpreted. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 07:46, 1 June 2016 (UTC) |
: I agree with both Nableezy and Greyshark, that the terms "[[Land of Israel]]" and "[[Palestine (region)]]" are ill defined, but in my opinion that is not a problem and the article, whatever it be called, could include all synagogues in the area, loosely interpreted. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 07:46, 1 June 2016 (UTC) |
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::You dont agree with me, because I never said that. Your lack of self-awareness on what is being ignored as "POV" notwithstanding, Palestine is the standard terminology for scholars discussing topics such as ancient synagogues built in that land area. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User talk:Nableezy|<font color="#C11B17">nableezy</font>]]''' - 15:00, 1 June 2016 (UTC)</small> |
::You dont agree with me, because I never said that. Your lack of self-awareness on what is being ignored as "POV" notwithstanding, Palestine is the standard terminology for scholars discussing topics such as ancient synagogues built in that land area. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User talk:Nableezy|<font color="#C11B17">nableezy</font>]]''' - 15:00, 1 June 2016 (UTC)</small> |
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*'''Oppose.''' "In Israel" vs. "in Palestine" are ill-defined and yet are separate and distinct entities in the minds of many people. If gray areas exist in terms of ancient synagogues, then articles' contents can include explanations where necessary. These should not be merged. <small>''[[WP:CIV|OUR Wikipedia (not "mine")!]]''</small> '''''[[User talk:Paine Ellsworth|<span style="font-size:85%;color:darkblue;font-family:Segoe Script">Paine</span>]]''''' <small>05:52, 14 June 2016 (UTC)</small> |
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:: Nice argument. Which is precisely why I held that "Ancient synagogues in Palestine" should be "disambiguated" to "Ancient synagogues in Palestine (region)", because in present times, for many people "Palestine" means the state, and not the region. [[User:Debresser|Debresser]] ([[User talk:Debresser|talk]]) 15:25, 14 June 2016 (UTC) |
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Oldest synagogues in Israel
This article is about the "Oldest synagogues in Israel", so therfor synagogues in the Palestinian territories and in Syria shouldn't be in this article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:31, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
- I am restoring those synagogues. "Israel" in this context doesn't necessarily mean the modern state of Israel. Perhaps a name change for the article is in order, but there's no reason to remove relevant content for political reasons. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 14:24, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
- But the information is not relevant since the information is about synagogues in the Palestinian territories and Syria. While this article is about synagogues in Israel. Doesn't make any sense. I will therefor correct the name of the article since it contains synagogues in the occupied territories to: "Oldest synagogues in Israel and the occupied territories" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:44, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
- Do you know how BRD works? You know you have no consensus to remove that information or move the article to another name without discussion.
- If you continue edit warring, I will report you. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:29, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
- SD you have a nasty habit of forcing your views down everyone's throats. You've been topic banned once before and you haven't learned from your mistakes.--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 19:43, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
- But the information is not relevant since the information is about synagogues in the Palestinian territories and Syria. While this article is about synagogues in Israel. Doesn't make any sense. I will therefor correct the name of the article since it contains synagogues in the occupied territories to: "Oldest synagogues in Israel and the occupied territories" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:44, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
So those who want to continue to have the synagogues in the occupied territories in this article, can you suggest a name change? Jiujitsuguy didn't like " Oldest synagogues in Israel and the occupied territories" so can you and No More Mr Nice Guy suggest other names? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:58, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
SyrianKing, article is about synagogues in Israel, not occupied territories, lets discuss name change here first. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:44, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
- Either the synagogues should be removed, the article renamed, or there should be clarification in the article. Sadly, it is obvious that the majority of editors want to keep the article title and contents factually incorrect. However maybe we can reach an agreement to have the phrase "occupied territories" added. SyrianKing (talk) 22:28, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
- What did you have in mind? As I stated above, I don't object to a name change. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:46, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
- No More Mr Nice Guy, you reverted me when I removed the synagogues in the palestinian territories and in Syria, and you said that: ""Israel" in this context doesn't necessarily mean the modern state of Israel. Perhaps a name change for the article is in order", since it is you who support a name change while objecting to synagogues outside of Israel to be removed from this article, then it is you who should suggest a name change. I previously suggested: "Oldest synagogues in Israel and the occupied territories", is that okey with you? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:23, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
- I think that could work. Give other editors time to comment though. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:14, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
- Five days past by since your last post and no one replied. Per the agreement between me and you I have changed the article name. I have also added the cats: Synagogues in Israel, Westbank and Syria, since synagogues located in these three areas are in this article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:29, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
- I think that could work. Give other editors time to comment though. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:14, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
- No More Mr Nice Guy, you reverted me when I removed the synagogues in the palestinian territories and in Syria, and you said that: ""Israel" in this context doesn't necessarily mean the modern state of Israel. Perhaps a name change for the article is in order", since it is you who support a name change while objecting to synagogues outside of Israel to be removed from this article, then it is you who should suggest a name change. I previously suggested: "Oldest synagogues in Israel and the occupied territories", is that okey with you? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:23, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
- What did you have in mind? As I stated above, I don't object to a name change. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:46, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
Hmbr, one of the synagogues in the article is located in Syria, not the Palestinian territories, so it must be named "and the occupied territories" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:51, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
- Technically, you are right- It was my mistake, and I also do understand the problem in the previous name, which involves political dispute. However, The historical piece of land called "Land of Israel" which was the common name in the time when the synagogues were established, includes sites which are nowadays within the boundaries of Israel, Syria and the palestinian territories, and therfore is the better name for this article. Thanks, --Hmbr (talk) 22:05, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
Land of Israel
Chesdovi, explain why you removed this synagogue in the land of Israel? [1] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:12, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
- Supreme, you should read the article more carefully. The historical territorial name referred at most to the extent of the United Kingdom of Israel. Your citation talks about the boundaries which were promised to Abraham's children, not Israel's Children. --Hmbr (talk) 22:18, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
- United Kingdom of Israel is not the "Land of Israel", the "Land of Israel" is something else and these sources shows its boundaries:[2][3] if only the synagogues in the "United Kingdom of Israel" is going to be here then the article should reflect the name and it should be moved to "Oldest synagogues in the United Kingdom of Israel" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:55, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
- It's not just "promised". They were indeed promised a larger tract, but only land that came under Israeli control in the days of yore has the status of the Holy Land, of the Land of Israel. I guess that's why Gaza synagogue is not included. Chesdovi (talk) 22:21, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
- Not true, these sources say that the land of Israel is what God promised to the Jews: [4][5] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:55, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
- Abraham's physical descendents include both Jewish and Arab peoples, through his son Ishmael. Hmbr (talk) 23:03, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
- Doesn't matter about the subject we are discussing here. The land of Israel is defined in the sources I brought. Not "United Kingdom of Israel", that's something else. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:06, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
- Abraham's physical descendents include both Jewish and Arab peoples, through his son Ishmael. Hmbr (talk) 23:03, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
- Not true, these sources say that the land of Israel is what God promised to the Jews: [4][5] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:55, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
- Supreme, you should read the article more carefully. The historical territorial name referred at most to the extent of the United Kingdom of Israel. Your citation talks about the boundaries which were promised to Abraham's children, not Israel's Children. --Hmbr (talk) 22:18, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
- Sure, there are people who say that the Land of Israel means that, but on the other side of the sprectum there is: "The biblical boundaries of the so-called Land of Israel are entirley fictional". (Though I am not sure what she means by saying there is no Jewish religious definition of the borders.) As far as I know, the mainstream (and Jewish) view is that of the area approx. which forms Israel and the WB today. This can be verified from the Talmudic references to it - which makes it clear that Babylon was not considered part of it. Chesdovi (talk) 23:22, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
- On paper, the Land of Isreal does include land upto the great river, but in reality and history, the region only ever known as the LOI did not encompass this vast area. It is like calling the lands of Israel, the WB and Jordan today "Israel" becuase these areas were once promised to the Jews by Britian in 1917. What actually became Israel was 7% of this area. Chesdovi (talk) 23:43, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
- The bible says from the nile to the euphrats, and I have shown several secondary sources that says that it is the Land of Israel, so its what the bile says and secondary sources against your: "As far as I know". "Land of Israel" is not the land that became the land for the Jewish people, the source says that the "Land of Israel" is what God gave to Abraham's descendants, and that is from the nile to the euphrates. You said: "the region only ever known as the LOI did not encompass this vast area" so what was the name of this kingdom or province or whatever? Hmbr said "United Kingdom of Israel", then change it to that. Content of the article must reflect the name, and if the name stays as it is, then it must include what the name is about, from the nile to the euphrats. Btw your comparisment to the British mandate doesn't hold, the British didn't promise a land consisting of today's Israel + WB + Jordan called "State of Israel", that would be called "Synagogues in the original delineation of the British mandate of Palestine" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:55, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
- Show me where God said "unto thee seed I give the Land of Israel". Chesdovi (talk) 00:59, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
- And what of the the well-entrenched rabbinic view that the messianic "Land of Israel" will encompass the whole world? In the Book of Numbers, the Torah relates how the Israelites were attacked by the nations that lived on the east bank of the Jordan River. The Israelites fought back, and after winning the war, they were left with a vast tract of land outside the originally-intended borders of Israel. [6]. The historic actual boundaries of the LOI are not defined to the last km, but they certainly did not stretch to the great river or brook. Chesdovi (talk) 01:12, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
The term “the land of Israel” came into use with the Israelite occupation, but its significance changes according to the historical situation.... The borders of the land of Israel and its main sectors are described in the vision revealed to Moses: "and the Lord showed him all the land, Gilead as far as Dan, all Naphtali, the land of Ephraim and Manasseh, all the land of Judah as far as the Western Sea, the Negev and the Plain, that is, the valley of Jericho, the city of palm trees, as far a Zoar. (Deut. 34 1-3.) As a boundary designation for the land of Israel, the phrase was eventually coined from “Dan to Beer-sheba” (2 Sam 24.2 1 Kings 4. 25) indicating the main centres in the north and in the south. In Transjordan the borders are “frm the valley of the Arnon to Mount Hermon” (Josh. 12.1.) [7]
- The area you want to call the LOI never covered that area. There are, however, many views about what area the land of Israel should encompass. The accepted term refers to the land which is today recognised by jewish legal scholars as having the holiness of the land of Israel, which conforms to the appoximate area of Israel/WB today. Chesdovi (talk) 01:29, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
- I have already showed you several sources that defines the land of Israel: [8][9][10]. Your source Chabad.org is a self publicized website written by a guest columnist, its basically the same thing as a personal blog, you cant cherry pick what one person believes and then leave out others believes. The bible have several definitions of the land of Israel, we can not cherry pick one thing from the bible and then leave out the other, "Land of Israel" must comprehend everything. Here we have Rabbi Moshe Pinchas Weisblum - From Abraham to Statehood – Israel’s Right to the Land: "This history outlines the promise of G-d to the Jews to live in "eratz" (the land of) Israel. It is laid out as clear as any street map and accepted as gospel, the infinite and finite gospel, by both Christians and Jews. In Chapter XV, it is written that Abraham, the head and the forefather of the Jewish people had a vision. "On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abraham saying to his descendants I am giving this land, from the River of Egypt to the Great River, The Euphrates River." This promise is one of the basic tenets of Jewish life. It is the reason why every Passover Seder, which celebrates the Jews' freedom of slavery from the Egyptians, ends with the phrase "Next year in Jerusalem." This promise was not just written in the bible by G-d, the bible brought down by Moses from Mount Sinai, but G-d's presence was felt and heard by those witnesses."[11] Eliezer Segal at the University of Calgary (see his CV:[12]) says: "The basic perception that Jews constitute a nation, and that our proper territory coincides (roughly) with the land trodden by our Biblical progenitors, is one that has never [well...hardly ever] been challenged in the Jewish consciousness since the earliest strata of the Bible. The covenant with Abraham, that forms the basis of our religious peoplehood, includes the promise that the patriarch's descendants, after their enslavement in a strange land, will return to the land: On that day God entered a covenant with Abram saying: To your descendants I have given this land from the River of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates..." [13] You have not shown me a source that says "The accepted term refers to the land which is today recognised by jewish legal scholars as having the holiness of the land of Israel, which conforms to the appoximate area of Israel/WB today.", these source that I brought shows a Rabbi defining the area as from the Nile to the Euphrates, and a scholar bringing up the same area when describing the Land of Israel including saying that it has hardly ever been challenged. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 11:23, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
- I find it highly amusing that someone like SD is arguing for an expansionist interpretation of "Land of Israel" for the sole purpose of including a synagogue in Syria on a wikipedia article. I doubt you can get a good grasp of thousands of years of theological discussion by spending 10 minutes on google, SD. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 11:56, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
- I have already showed you several sources that defines the land of Israel: [8][9][10]. Your source Chabad.org is a self publicized website written by a guest columnist, its basically the same thing as a personal blog, you cant cherry pick what one person believes and then leave out others believes. The bible have several definitions of the land of Israel, we can not cherry pick one thing from the bible and then leave out the other, "Land of Israel" must comprehend everything. Here we have Rabbi Moshe Pinchas Weisblum - From Abraham to Statehood – Israel’s Right to the Land: "This history outlines the promise of G-d to the Jews to live in "eratz" (the land of) Israel. It is laid out as clear as any street map and accepted as gospel, the infinite and finite gospel, by both Christians and Jews. In Chapter XV, it is written that Abraham, the head and the forefather of the Jewish people had a vision. "On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abraham saying to his descendants I am giving this land, from the River of Egypt to the Great River, The Euphrates River." This promise is one of the basic tenets of Jewish life. It is the reason why every Passover Seder, which celebrates the Jews' freedom of slavery from the Egyptians, ends with the phrase "Next year in Jerusalem." This promise was not just written in the bible by G-d, the bible brought down by Moses from Mount Sinai, but G-d's presence was felt and heard by those witnesses."[11] Eliezer Segal at the University of Calgary (see his CV:[12]) says: "The basic perception that Jews constitute a nation, and that our proper territory coincides (roughly) with the land trodden by our Biblical progenitors, is one that has never [well...hardly ever] been challenged in the Jewish consciousness since the earliest strata of the Bible. The covenant with Abraham, that forms the basis of our religious peoplehood, includes the promise that the patriarch's descendants, after their enslavement in a strange land, will return to the land: On that day God entered a covenant with Abram saying: To your descendants I have given this land from the River of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates..." [13] You have not shown me a source that says "The accepted term refers to the land which is today recognised by jewish legal scholars as having the holiness of the land of Israel, which conforms to the appoximate area of Israel/WB today.", these source that I brought shows a Rabbi defining the area as from the Nile to the Euphrates, and a scholar bringing up the same area when describing the Land of Israel including saying that it has hardly ever been challenged. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 11:23, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
- The bible says from the nile to the euphrats, and I have shown several secondary sources that says that it is the Land of Israel, so its what the bile says and secondary sources against your: "As far as I know". "Land of Israel" is not the land that became the land for the Jewish people, the source says that the "Land of Israel" is what God gave to Abraham's descendants, and that is from the nile to the euphrates. You said: "the region only ever known as the LOI did not encompass this vast area" so what was the name of this kingdom or province or whatever? Hmbr said "United Kingdom of Israel", then change it to that. Content of the article must reflect the name, and if the name stays as it is, then it must include what the name is about, from the nile to the euphrats. Btw your comparisment to the British mandate doesn't hold, the British didn't promise a land consisting of today's Israel + WB + Jordan called "State of Israel", that would be called "Synagogues in the original delineation of the British mandate of Palestine" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:55, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
SD, you dismissed my analagy to the 1917 borders of Israel. Yet you have yet to show me where the bible metions: "unto thy seed I give the Land of Israel". Chesdovi (talk) 12:19, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
As a boundary designation for the land of Israel, the phrase was eventually coined from “Dan to Beer-sheba”. Chesdovi (talk) 12:20, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
If you want the LOI to include up to the farthest extent of its borders ever mentioned, forget the Euphrates, the Midrash tells us: "Jerusalem will in the future expand to cover all the Land of Israel, and the Land of Israel will expand to cover the whole world." So this page must include all synagogues in the whole world. Chesdovi (talk) 12:43, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
- I already showed you above the primary and secondary sources that say from the nile to the euphrates, including a rabbi saying it and a scholar saying that it has hardly ever been challenged. Your claim of that the Land of Israel is only "Dan to Beer-sheba" is not backed up by any source, so its your own personal claim against the sources I have brought, and I explained in my above post that the bible have several definitions of the Land of Israel, we can not cherry pick one thing and then leave out the other, "Land of Israel" must comprehend all definitions. I just googled your sentence, and in the entire internet there was only one single hit, if this really was a religious text then there would undoubtedly have been more hits, but even if this one single hit is correct, it says: "and the Land of Israel will expand to cover the whole world.", has the Land of Israel expanded to cover the whole world yet? No, so its an irrelevant discussion now, in the future when it happens we can ad the synagogues in the expanded Land of Israel that covers the whole world. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:46, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
- I don't know what kind of search you did, but here are just a few examples which it took me exactly 10 seconds to find - [14] [15] [16].
- You can even find a reference to the actual midrash if you spend 5 minutes reading the stuff.
- Like I said above, you are not going to be able to learn milennia of theological debate by spending 10 minutes on google. I find it amazing that you would actually argue about this with someone who obviously knows more than you ever will about the subject. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:42, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
- Non of your links have the same quote as from Chesdovi, and you are arguing about something that doesn't matter, the sentence has already been replied to above: "it says: "and the Land of Israel will expand to cover the whole world.", has the Land of Israel expanded to cover the whole world yet? No, so its an irrelevant discussion now, in the future when it happens we can ad the synagogues in the expanded Land of Israel that covers the whole world. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:25, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
- If you don't think it appears in the links I provided then it's obvious you haven't read them. Since it's obvious you don't even know what the midrash says, how can you in good faith argue against it? Seriously.
- The extent of your knowledge about this issue is some stuff you read on google, some of it, like this doesn't even mention "Land of Israel", while. If you had bothered to read the source Chesdovi provided here you could have both learned something and stopped being so tendentious. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:23, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
- I have read them and they don't have the same quote, for example the first link says: "In the future, Jerusalem will be like all of Israel, and Israel will be the entire world." while chesdovi said: "Jerusalem will in the future expand to cover all the Land of Israel, and the Land of Israel will expand to cover the whole world.". Genesis 15:18-21 does not specifically say "Land of Israel" and neither does the bible quotes that talk about Beersheba to Dan. Yes this is a 3 line snippet showing a secondary source with the nile-euphrates quote from the bible defining it as the Land of Israel, so what? I also brought a source from a rabbi and from a scholar above, what is wrong with these three sources? Yes the source Chesdovi brought is a secondary source defining the LOI, and I have brought several secondary sources defining the LOI, why are you cherry picking one pov and leaving out the other? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:01, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
- It's a bit ironic of you to accuse me of cherrypicking when the quote you brought from this source doesn't specifically say what the "Land of Israel" consists of, but it does explicitly do so later on in the piece, which you may or may not have read. The later passage unsurprisingly supports what Chesdovi told you above. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:24, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not cherry picking, I never said that Dan - Bersheeba is not a definition of the Land of Israel, I said that there are several, and that was what I wanted to prove. The source does indeed say what the Land of Israel is: Headline: The Land of Israel in Classical Jewish Sources: In the Bible: "The basic perception that Jews constitute a nation, and that our proper territory coincides (roughly) with the land trodden by our Biblical progenitors, is one that has never [well...hardly ever] been challenged in the Jewish consciousness since the earliest strata of the Bible. The covenant with Abraham, that forms the basis of our religious peoplehood, includes the promise that the patriarch's descendants, after their enslavement in a strange land, will return to the land: On that day God entered a covenant with Abram saying: To your descendants I have given this land from the River of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates..." .. and after he also talks about other definitions of the Land of Israel, this is exactly what I have been saying, that there are several definitions. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 01:12, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
- All you have proved is that you can use google to some extent. You obviously don't have enough knowledge about how Judaism works to usefully interpret what you find. But this is pointless. You are not interested in an accurate article, you're interested in putting a synagogue that's in Syria in it, not matter what people who know more about the subject tell you. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 11:36, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
- Your latest post does not address the issue. You have failed to explain why one definition can be cherry picked while the other can be left out. Well obviously I am interested in an accurate article and you are not, since I am the one that wants to follow the definitions in the reliable sources, while you want to cherry pick definitions. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:06, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
- You actually had a source that supported both what you (wrongly) think is the definition and the one others are telling you is correct and you chose just the one that suited your point, and you accuse me of cherry picking? That's rich.
- You do not understand how Judaism works. You do not understand the difference between what the Torah says and how it is interpreted. You are not interested in learning more about the issue, all you're interested in is finding a technical reason to push something into the article. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 12:21, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
- I didn't have to bring up the other pov from the source, because no one disagrees with it, why do I have to prove something that no one disagrees with? Thats not cherry picking. You claim the nile-euphrates definition is "wrong", yet you have not shown how it is "wrong", the only thing you have presented is your own personal cherry picking pov of the sources, and now instead of addressing the issue you are now resorting to personal attacks. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 14:22, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
- I didn't say the source is "wrong", I said you are not reading it correctly. In the section titled "In the Bible" the term "Land of Israel" is not used. The section "In Halakhah" explains what it is according to Jewish thought. To put this in terms easier for you to understand, the bible is a primary source. You need a secondary source to interpret it. Saying you do not understand how Judaism works is not a personal attack, it's a simple fact which you can't honestly deny. That you would argue so much about something you have so little knowledge about is an excellent example of one of the things that's wrong with this project. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:26, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
- It is used in the headline: The Land of Israel in Classical Jewish Sources, then he begins with the bible. Its clear to anyone what its about. I have already shown you several secondary sources that interpret it, Text by Eliezer Segal at the University of Calgary [17], Text by Rabbi Moshe Pinchas Weisblum [18], The Jewish people, the Holy Land, and the state of Israel: a Catholic view By Richard C. Lux [19], Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict:What the Headlines Haven't Told You by Michael Rydelnik [20] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:48, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
- This is getting quite pointless. Your first source never says that the boundaries until the Euphrates are "the Land of Israel". It is clear to anyone what it's about, and you're just not getting it. Another source is "from a Catholic view". The third is just a three line snippet which shows no context (you obviously haven't read this book, have you? How can you in good faith present 3 lines as a source?). Google is not a replacement for knowledge. Your wikilawyering here is reducing the quality of this encyclopedia. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:28, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
- I take that last one back. It's not reducing the quality of the encyclopedia, just attempting to. Since it's obvious your interpretation doesn't have consensus here, I shall now bow out of this silly discussion. Feel free to start an RfC if you want to pursue this further. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:23, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
- The first source does say that the Nile-Euphrates are "the Land of Israel", now I understand that you don't like this because it goes against your personal pov, you are free to ask any uninvolved admin and he will tell you that the source supports this. "The Jewish people, the Holy Land, and the state of Israel: a Catholic view" By Richard C. Lux, might be written from a catholic view, so what? Halakhah is written from a Jewish view, where are you going with this? I already replied to your attempt to discredit the "Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict:What the Headlines Haven't Told You by Michael Rydelnik" source above, and now instead of replying you are repeating yourself. And you did not address the source by Rabbi Moshe Pinchas Weisblum, how come? You can not show me one single diff in this entire discussion where I have attempted to include "my interpretation" which makes your last comment false. Since consensus is based on arguments and not votes, and since there has not been one single argument in this entire discussion for why we should cherry pick one pov and leave out the other, no RFC is needed for anything as there is a lack of argument for why we should cherry pick one pov and leave out the other.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:49, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
- It is used in the headline: The Land of Israel in Classical Jewish Sources, then he begins with the bible. Its clear to anyone what its about. I have already shown you several secondary sources that interpret it, Text by Eliezer Segal at the University of Calgary [17], Text by Rabbi Moshe Pinchas Weisblum [18], The Jewish people, the Holy Land, and the state of Israel: a Catholic view By Richard C. Lux [19], Understanding the Arab-Israeli Conflict:What the Headlines Haven't Told You by Michael Rydelnik [20] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:48, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
- I didn't say the source is "wrong", I said you are not reading it correctly. In the section titled "In the Bible" the term "Land of Israel" is not used. The section "In Halakhah" explains what it is according to Jewish thought. To put this in terms easier for you to understand, the bible is a primary source. You need a secondary source to interpret it. Saying you do not understand how Judaism works is not a personal attack, it's a simple fact which you can't honestly deny. That you would argue so much about something you have so little knowledge about is an excellent example of one of the things that's wrong with this project. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:26, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
- I didn't have to bring up the other pov from the source, because no one disagrees with it, why do I have to prove something that no one disagrees with? Thats not cherry picking. You claim the nile-euphrates definition is "wrong", yet you have not shown how it is "wrong", the only thing you have presented is your own personal cherry picking pov of the sources, and now instead of addressing the issue you are now resorting to personal attacks. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 14:22, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
- Your latest post does not address the issue. You have failed to explain why one definition can be cherry picked while the other can be left out. Well obviously I am interested in an accurate article and you are not, since I am the one that wants to follow the definitions in the reliable sources, while you want to cherry pick definitions. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:06, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
- All you have proved is that you can use google to some extent. You obviously don't have enough knowledge about how Judaism works to usefully interpret what you find. But this is pointless. You are not interested in an accurate article, you're interested in putting a synagogue that's in Syria in it, not matter what people who know more about the subject tell you. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 11:36, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not cherry picking, I never said that Dan - Bersheeba is not a definition of the Land of Israel, I said that there are several, and that was what I wanted to prove. The source does indeed say what the Land of Israel is: Headline: The Land of Israel in Classical Jewish Sources: In the Bible: "The basic perception that Jews constitute a nation, and that our proper territory coincides (roughly) with the land trodden by our Biblical progenitors, is one that has never [well...hardly ever] been challenged in the Jewish consciousness since the earliest strata of the Bible. The covenant with Abraham, that forms the basis of our religious peoplehood, includes the promise that the patriarch's descendants, after their enslavement in a strange land, will return to the land: On that day God entered a covenant with Abram saying: To your descendants I have given this land from the River of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates..." .. and after he also talks about other definitions of the Land of Israel, this is exactly what I have been saying, that there are several definitions. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 01:12, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
- It's a bit ironic of you to accuse me of cherrypicking when the quote you brought from this source doesn't specifically say what the "Land of Israel" consists of, but it does explicitly do so later on in the piece, which you may or may not have read. The later passage unsurprisingly supports what Chesdovi told you above. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:24, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
- I have read them and they don't have the same quote, for example the first link says: "In the future, Jerusalem will be like all of Israel, and Israel will be the entire world." while chesdovi said: "Jerusalem will in the future expand to cover all the Land of Israel, and the Land of Israel will expand to cover the whole world.". Genesis 15:18-21 does not specifically say "Land of Israel" and neither does the bible quotes that talk about Beersheba to Dan. Yes this is a 3 line snippet showing a secondary source with the nile-euphrates quote from the bible defining it as the Land of Israel, so what? I also brought a source from a rabbi and from a scholar above, what is wrong with these three sources? Yes the source Chesdovi brought is a secondary source defining the LOI, and I have brought several secondary sources defining the LOI, why are you cherry picking one pov and leaving out the other? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:01, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
- Non of your links have the same quote as from Chesdovi, and you are arguing about something that doesn't matter, the sentence has already been replied to above: "it says: "and the Land of Israel will expand to cover the whole world.", has the Land of Israel expanded to cover the whole world yet? No, so its an irrelevant discussion now, in the future when it happens we can ad the synagogues in the expanded Land of Israel that covers the whole world. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:25, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
A. It's not my POV, it's what anyone who has read more than a 3 line snippet on google about Judaism knows.
B. There have been plenty of sources provided, including one by yourself, that show that Land of Israel doesn't mean what you think it means.
C. You are in no position to say that other people's arguments are invalid and therefore the consensus reached on the talk page is invalid. So far 3 people said one thing, and you said another. There is no consensus for your position. If you want to try and change that you can open an RfC. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:08, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
- The biblical promise to Abraham was just that, a promise. You can call this page Synagogues in the Promised Land if you want. The only area that can honestly be referred to as the Land of Israel in our context, is the land that was settled by the decendants if Israel, (who himself was Abraham's grandson - how can the borders mentioned to Abraham be called the LOI when Israel was not even born yet?) SD has pointed out correctly, the term is not anywhere in the bible in relation to borders. That's why my analagy is correct. The 1917 plan may not have been called Israel, it was called the National Jewish home or other things, but that's what it meant. True, God intended the LOI to reach from Egypt to Iraq, but this never happened, like the Jews not getting Palestine and TransJordan. What became the national Jewish home was the actual land that became Israel. So too with the historic borders of the LOI. The only land that can honestly be called the LOI is the land that actually was settled by the Israelites. As in the negotiations between the British and French on the borders of Palestine, the biblical verse "from Dan to Beersheba" frequently appears in various documents, because that was the furthest extent of the Israelite dominion. This page is not based on synagogues in a proposed region which never came into being, rather on a region that was an actual entity called the Land of Israel, meaning the land where the ancient Israelites lived. Chesdovi (talk) 21:27, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
Merge
Propose merge of Ancient synagogues in Palestine->Oldest synagogues in the Land of Israel
The articles are clearly dealing with the geographic distribution of synagogues, which makes the Land of Israel a much more relevant term, as Jewish concept. Furthermore, the content in the Palestine arrticle is practically identical.GreyShark (dibra) 22:33, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- Makes sense. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:51, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- I agree that both articles should be merged.
- Regarding the title, I think that "Oldest" has something pov-ed with the "-est" that cannot be defined.
- I suggest the merged article keeps "Ancient synagogues"
- Pluto2012 (talk) 06:44, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
- Some material will have to be removed from Oldest synagogues in the Land of Israel if it is to be merged. Chesdovi (talk) 11:57, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not sure there is anything to remove, because the mainstream definition of Land of Israel coastline from Ashdod to Acre and from shoreline to Transjordan and Golan covers almost all Jewish/Samaritan archaeological sites now in the article, while Palestine in fact doesn't extend to the Golan (which is part of the Land of Israel per most opinions). Anything specific? Maybe Ashkelon?GreyShark (dibra) 18:17, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- Some material will have to be removed from Oldest synagogues in the Land of Israel if it is to be merged. Chesdovi (talk) 11:57, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
- Comment - i withdraw the proposal, following notice that Oldest synagogues in the world list according to countries. Land of Israel should be renamed to Israel and content fit accordingly. There is no reasons all others would be modern countries, but this would be a geographic region.GreyShark (dibra) 19:23, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
Requested move 3 May 2016
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: Moved. (non-admin closure) — Music1201 talk 03:43, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
Oldest synagogues in the Land of Israel → Ancient synagogues in Israel – In line with naming standard of articles (Ancient synanogues in <foo country>) and in parallel with the rename proposal Ancient synagogues in Palestine->Ancient synagogues in the State of Palestine GreyShark (dibra) 20:32, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
- Support "Ancient" is better then "oldest". Debresser (talk) 11:15, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
- Support "Ancient" is less pov and in that way more understandable than "oldest". The Land of Israel covering Palestine, I also think it is wiser to establish the border between Israel and Palestine for the classification. Pluto2012 (talk) 15:39, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
- Support Good idea, as will be more clearly defined. Oncenawhile (talk) 21:33, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Proposed merge with Ancient synagogues in Palestine
The synagogues listed (at least >90%) are in Israel, not in "modern" Palestine. The target article should be expanded with the list that this article has. If you read the whole source article, it's all about ancient synagogues in Israel, short of the article title. Sir Joseph (talk) 15:31, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
- That list has now been changed and all synagogues in Israel removed from it, making this proposal unnecessary. By the way, Wadi Qelt is in the West Bank, so should not be in this article.
- There is an alternative: merge this article into the Palestine article, after renaming that article to Ancient synagogues in Palestine (region). Debresser (talk) 16:58, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
- But, what is the purpose of such an article "Synagogues in the Palestine region"? Is this a notable topic for Jews or Arabs? For Jews the only meaning is synagogues in the Land of Israel, whereas for Palestinian Arabs, the grouping of synagogues in Palestine region doesn't provide any meaning. And my opinion is that Palestine region and LAnd of Israel are NOT the same and actually differ pretty much in their geographic and historic definition.GreyShark (dibra) 13:30, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
- Disagree with both Sir Joseph's proposal and Debresser's alternative, because the borders of Palestine region and Land of Israel differ (and differ quiet much in various definitions). This would also be non-standard with other "Synagogues in <Foo>" articles, typically indicating modern states and countries. With current removal of duplicates - it seems a fair fix to the problem.GreyShark (dibra) 13:27, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
"The Land of Israel" is a religious term, the commonly used term to describe that area is "Palestine" and that should be what an English encyclopedia uses when discussing the region. This article should be merged there with a section on ones that are in the modern state of Israel and a section on ones in the Palestinian territories. nableezy - 15:45, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
- Nableezy As I told you elsewhere, and you know this very well, just choose to ignore it for POV reasons, "Palestine" may have been the name of the region in the past, but definitely not in the 21st century. Debresser (talk) 23:15, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with both Nableezy and Greyshark, that the terms "Land of Israel" and "Palestine (region)" are ill defined, but in my opinion that is not a problem and the article, whatever it be called, could include all synagogues in the area, loosely interpreted. Debresser (talk) 07:46, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
- You dont agree with me, because I never said that. Your lack of self-awareness on what is being ignored as "POV" notwithstanding, Palestine is the standard terminology for scholars discussing topics such as ancient synagogues built in that land area. nableezy - 15:00, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose. "In Israel" vs. "in Palestine" are ill-defined and yet are separate and distinct entities in the minds of many people. If gray areas exist in terms of ancient synagogues, then articles' contents can include explanations where necessary. These should not be merged. OUR Wikipedia (not "mine")! Paine 05:52, 14 June 2016 (UTC)