Volunteer Marek (talk | contribs) |
|||
Line 70: | Line 70: | ||
::Since when did believing in race equate racism? Or even using evolutionary science to prove it? These questions do have answers, and I suggest you search for them, that's all I have to say to that. [[User:Connor Machiavelli|Connor Machiavelli]] ([[User talk:Connor Machiavelli|talk]]) 06:58, 6 February 2016 (UTC) |
::Since when did believing in race equate racism? Or even using evolutionary science to prove it? These questions do have answers, and I suggest you search for them, that's all I have to say to that. [[User:Connor Machiavelli|Connor Machiavelli]] ([[User talk:Connor Machiavelli|talk]]) 06:58, 6 February 2016 (UTC) |
||
:::Anyone with half a clue knows that "race realist" is just a code word for "racist", as used by racist themselves. It's spin and bs. Here is a source which addresses this directly in this particular context [https://books.google.com/books?id=HKi4CAAAQBAJ&pg=PA58&dq=%22race+realist%22+racism&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiByLH_yOLKAhXG5yYKHdR5CG8Q6AEIJTAB#v=onepage&q=%22race%20realist%22%20racism&f=false]. Basically "race realist" is what racists like to call themselves because it allows them to pretend that they're not complete morons. Everyone else - including reliable secondary sources, knows otherwise.[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 07:04, 6 February 2016 (UTC) |
:::Anyone with half a clue knows that "race realist" is just a code word for "racist", as used by racist themselves. It's spin and bs. Here is a source which addresses this directly in this particular context [https://books.google.com/books?id=HKi4CAAAQBAJ&pg=PA58&dq=%22race+realist%22+racism&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiByLH_yOLKAhXG5yYKHdR5CG8Q6AEIJTAB#v=onepage&q=%22race%20realist%22%20racism&f=false]. Basically "race realist" is what racists like to call themselves because it allows them to pretend that they're not complete morons. Everyone else - including reliable secondary sources, knows otherwise.[[User:Volunteer Marek|Volunteer Marek]] ([[User talk:Volunteer Marek|talk]]) 07:04, 6 February 2016 (UTC) |
||
This is patentedly false. One can believe in race and not be racist. Have you been to East Asia? I wouldn't call them very racist, and yet they all accept race as a scientific fact over there (or at least, most do, especially in China and Korea). |
|||
Ignoring the fact that race realism =/= racism, I'd also like to second the notion that SPLC is an inappropriate source to use on any related article to race issues, since they're an extremely biased and compromised source that has even been [http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/shocker-fbi-dumps-southern-poverty-law-center-as-hate-crime-watchdog-partner/article/2546305 discredited by the FBI.] |
|||
Also, googlin' sources to support whatever claim it is you wish to support doesn't work around here. Just wanted to point that out. [[User:Solntsa90|Solntsa90]] ([[User talk:Solntsa90|talk]]) 07:18, 6 February 2016 (UTC) |
|||
== Repetition == |
== Repetition == |
Revision as of 07:18, 6 February 2016
This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Ideology
The Ideology part is a pure invention and defamation. We could say the same about the ADL that it is a Jewish supremacist organization using African Americans against Whites.--109.23.159.201 (talk) 21:06, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
- Can you please furnish a reliable source that says that the ADL is "a Jewish supremacist organization using African Americans against Whites"? Hint - fringe racist blogs are not reliable sources, nor are your talk page comments. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:40, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
Should be worked on. http://www.amren.com/about/ Connor Machiavelli (talk) 23:21, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
Article name is inaccurate
The article name talks about a magazine. The magazine no longer exists; the subject of the article is now a website. Somebody who knows how to fix this should fix it. Lou Sander (talk) 21:54, 16 October 2014 (UTC) == I'm sure that makes a huge difference. == Edruezzi (talk) 20:51, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
Obviously biased
I don't have time to edit the content under each sub-heading in this article, but surely someone could help out here. There's need for a "criticism" section, and all of the other sections need to be cleaned up removing all references to "Critics say", "Mark Potok and Heidi Beirich... say", "They have also stated that", etc.
Just look at the "Ideology" section and try to argue that this article's balanced in its approach. "The Anti-Defamation League describes American Renaissance as a "white supremacist journal"" - followed by more criticism of American Renaissance without a single reference to what AmRen say hey believe. I'd argue that there should be NO reference to what the ADL and the SPLC think of them in this section at all, but at the very least you should MENTION what their mission-goal is. The section is dedicated to their ideology, for Christ's sake! Here, read the "What We Believe" section and use this as a sourced piece describing what AmRen state they believe http://www.amren.com/about/
Absolutely ridiculous. If this isn't fixed by someone else in the next few days, I'll try to work on this over the weekend to clean the entire article up. To reiterate, it's pretty obvious this article deserves a criticism section and the current layout of the article (i.e., have a focus on criticism of AmRen in EVERY section of the article) needs to be completely reformatted to minimise all reference to the ADL, SPLC, etc. outside of this criticism section and the introductory paragraph. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maring HS (talk • contribs) 19:56, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
- Agreed. Lou Sander (talk) 01:47, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
- Added POV tag. The article says virtually nothing about the content of the magazine/website from a neutral point of view, concentrating on opposition to it. --- Robina Fox (talk) 17:49, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- The article reflects what reliable secondary sources say. That's pretty much the essence of NPOV. You're confusing NPOV with WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT.Volunteer Marek 18:41, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
- OK, perhaps the problem is balance rather than bias. But it is a strikingly uninformative and unencyclopaediac article. Also, why the repetition? Robina Fox (talk) 21:09, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
- The article reflects what reliable secondary sources say. That's pretty much the essence of NPOV. You're confusing NPOV with WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT.Volunteer Marek 18:41, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
- Added POV tag. The article says virtually nothing about the content of the magazine/website from a neutral point of view, concentrating on opposition to it. --- Robina Fox (talk) 17:49, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
I agree this article is very WP:POV, also I restored her
but then also changed it to February. Connor Machiavelli (talk) 00:00, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- There is no balance issue here. Wikipedia goes by what reliable sources say. Including viewpoints specifically because they differ is false balance. That isn't WP:NPOV. There is no clear complain or actionable change here, so the tag should be removed. Tags are not intended to be badges of shame, or to be used to hold articles hostage. Grayfell (talk) 08:36, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
Well, Grayfell, it's actually WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT to revert my edits, because I am removing material based off of WP:NOR. Connor Machiavelli (talk) 08:40, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, the source was off. That has now been corrected. The quote was from a source that is already cited in the article. So what, exactly, is the reason this article is tagged as NPOV? What can be done to fix it? Grayfell (talk) 09:09, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- It was supported by a WP:REFNAME. This one which was already used in the article. I understand your concerns, as I made a mistake before, but this time, it really does support the quote. You did specifically say "Find good citations if you want to keep this material" and I have done that. Please restore the quote to avoid edit warring. Grayfell (talk) 09:14, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
That source from the post-gazette seems to quote the Intelligence Report out of nothing. That's not a reliable source. What to do is quit labeling this as KKK, on Wikipedia, it is even stated that Jared Taylor is not anti-Jewish. Connor Machiavelli (talk) 09:24, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- I must say I support the neutrality tag. The Southern Poverty Law Center maybe isn't such a reliable source on matters like this, as noted HERE. Their statements about American Renaissance, while gathered from reliable sources, are filled with loaded language, for example "modern-day Klansmen" and "typically thug-dominated world". This stuff can be fixed, IMHO, by some rewriting. Lou Sander (talk) 14:35, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- The SPLC has been discussed several times at WP:RSN. It is a reliable source for its opinions. I'm guessing that Connor Machiavelli is a bit too new to understand our policies, and I've already had to revert him from copying a big chunk of a Metapedia article into one of ours. Doug Weller talk 16:08, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- Agree with Doug Weller. As long as it's clear that any information from SPLC is it's opinion, it is a reliable source. Sundayclose (talk) 18:35, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- The SPLC has been discussed several times at WP:RSN. It is a reliable source for its opinions. I'm guessing that Connor Machiavelli is a bit too new to understand our policies, and I've already had to revert him from copying a big chunk of a Metapedia article into one of ours. Doug Weller talk 16:08, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- The article says "Designation as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center. The New Century Foundation and its website have been designated...". It might be a little clearer, and might partially excuse some of the loaded language, if somehow it were clearer that this is the "opinion" of the SPLC. Right now, SPLC is presented as an authoritative source for hate group designations, as opposed to a somewhat contoversial source that has opinions on such things. Lou Sander (talk) 21:19, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- I don't know whether they are "somewhat contoversial", but they are in fact more or less an authoritative source on hate group designations.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:23, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- I respect your opinion about that, but they are less authoritative and more controversial than you think. Please see the well-sourced material HERE. Lou Sander (talk) 02:30, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
- I don't know whether they are "somewhat contoversial", but they are in fact more or less an authoritative source on hate group designations.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:23, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- The article says "Designation as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center. The New Century Foundation and its website have been designated...". It might be a little clearer, and might partially excuse some of the loaded language, if somehow it were clearer that this is the "opinion" of the SPLC. Right now, SPLC is presented as an authoritative source for hate group designations, as opposed to a somewhat contoversial source that has opinions on such things. Lou Sander (talk) 21:19, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
Sundayclose, you just reverted my edit. post-gazette is not a reliable source for this, as it seems they're quoting the Intelligence Report out of nothing about American Renaissance being for some sort of KKK. If the Intelligence Report actually said it, then find out they did and source that showing they actually said it, not just a claim they did. Connor Machiavelli (talk) 20:13, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- Connor Machiavelli, there is no reason to assume Post-Gazette is quoting something "out of nothing" other than your personal opinion. Wikipedia editors have no obligation to find the source that PG used; if you think they are, please link the policy. Wikipedia is replete with examples of quotations from a source that obtains the quotation from another source. If you have evidence that PG confabulated the quote other than your own opinion, please give it to us here. Otherwise the quotation stays. There are two issues here: Is the article as a whole POV? And does the quotation come from a reliable source? The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette is a reliable source. If you think inclusion of the quotation is POV, make your case here, but don't hide that argument behind a claim that a quotation is "out of nothing." My revert was not done to address the POV issue; it was done because you falsely claimed "Source doesn't say it". The source in fact does say it. If you want to argue that including the quotation is POV, get consensus here. Sundayclose (talk) 20:38, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
Alright, and if I can prove it, then it's WP:NOR. Also the SPLC is considered a reliable source for whatever reason, but I agree it's not a reliable source for this article if we want a neutral article that isn't POV. Connor Machiavelli (talk) 20:51, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what the comment immediately above means. If you can prove that Post-Gazette confabulated a quotation, then PG is not a reliable source for the quotation. SPLC is a reliable source for it's own opinions, whether in this article or any other article. All of that is an entirely separate issue of whether the article as a whole is POV. You're confusing very different issues. Determining that this article is POV requires a consensus. Please carefully read WP:CON and WP:NPOV. Sundayclose (talk) 20:58, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
I'm talking about if the information is kept from Post-Gazette even if I disproved that the Intellectual Report said it, then that'd be WP:NOR. Post-Gazette contributes to WP:POV on this anyways. Connor Machiavelli (talk) 21:03, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble understanding what you write. What do you mean "if the information is kept from Post-Gazette"? Let me try to simplify: I reverted your removal of the quotation because the quotation in fact is in the linked PG article. But if you have evidence that the PG made up the quotation from nothing, please give it to us. "Post-Gazette contributes to WP:POV on this anyways": That's your opinion, which is fine, but your opinion alone is not how things are decided here. Whether or not the article is POV is determined by consensus. Again, please read WP:CON and WP:NPOV. Sundayclose (talk) 21:10, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- There's nothing on Jared Taylor in this search, if it were true it'd come up on the first page, and none of the articles have the two sentences about him being white supremacist/KKK. Connor Machiavelli (talk) 21:22, 5 February 2016 (UTC) https://www.splcenter.org/resources?keyword=is+the+cultivated%2C+cosmopolitan+face+of+white+supremacy.+He+is+the+guy+who+is+providing+the+intellectual+heft%2C+in+effect+to%2C+mod
- You have made a huge logical fallacy in your conclusions. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because you can't find something on one website doesn't mean it did not occur. If I tell you that the moon is made of cheese and you fail to find evidence that it is not made of cheese, it is a logical absurdity to then conclude that the moon is made of cheese. If you want to prove that the quotation was confabulated by Post-Gazette, please find a reliable source that specifically states that. Sundayclose (talk) 21:31, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- There's nothing on Jared Taylor in this search, if it were true it'd come up on the first page, and none of the articles have the two sentences about him being white supremacist/KKK. Connor Machiavelli (talk) 21:22, 5 February 2016 (UTC) https://www.splcenter.org/resources?keyword=is+the+cultivated%2C+cosmopolitan+face+of+white+supremacy.+He+is+the+guy+who+is+providing+the+intellectual+heft%2C+in+effect+to%2C+mod
- How could I find that out? Connor Machiavelli (talk) 21:37, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- I don't think you can because I feel confident that PG did not make up the quotation. PG is a well-respected publication with a reputation for fact-checking. In any event, since you made the claim that PG came up with the quotation "out of nothing", it is your responsibility to provide the evidence. Connor Machiavelli, a little friendly advice: if you want to make a case that the article is POV, you're going down the wrong path to try to find evidence for deception by a reputable newspaper. Find another argument for your case. Sundayclose (talk) 21:47, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- How could I find that out? Connor Machiavelli (talk) 21:37, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
WP:POV tag was removed again. We have not yet reached a consensus, editors, please refrain from doing so until the decision is made. I support Ideology being worked on and it being made clear exactly what the American Renaissance, and who Jared Taylor, is, it's also important what they identify as, and that's race realist, and I support race-realist or racialist. Let's pick one for the article, and also include what they identify as. Connor Machiavelli (talk) 23:36, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- Please, 2 of those are redirects you created, why would we use redirects? Just plain racism works for me, if you have a quote from them saying why they are racist that youwantto use bring it here. Doug Weller talk 06:55, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
- Since when did believing in race equate racism? Or even using evolutionary science to prove it? These questions do have answers, and I suggest you search for them, that's all I have to say to that. Connor Machiavelli (talk) 06:58, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
- Anyone with half a clue knows that "race realist" is just a code word for "racist", as used by racist themselves. It's spin and bs. Here is a source which addresses this directly in this particular context [1]. Basically "race realist" is what racists like to call themselves because it allows them to pretend that they're not complete morons. Everyone else - including reliable secondary sources, knows otherwise.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:04, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
- Since when did believing in race equate racism? Or even using evolutionary science to prove it? These questions do have answers, and I suggest you search for them, that's all I have to say to that. Connor Machiavelli (talk) 06:58, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
This is patentedly false. One can believe in race and not be racist. Have you been to East Asia? I wouldn't call them very racist, and yet they all accept race as a scientific fact over there (or at least, most do, especially in China and Korea).
Ignoring the fact that race realism =/= racism, I'd also like to second the notion that SPLC is an inappropriate source to use on any related article to race issues, since they're an extremely biased and compromised source that has even been discredited by the FBI.
Also, googlin' sources to support whatever claim it is you wish to support doesn't work around here. Just wanted to point that out. Solntsa90 (talk) 07:18, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
Repetition
In Ideology, we have "Jared Taylor is the cultivated, cosmopolitan face of white supremacy. He is the guy who is providing the intellectual heft, in effect, to modern-day Klansmen." repeated. That is not their own views. Things like these should be kept in a Reception or Criticism section. Putting it in Ideology is WP:POV. Connor Machiavelli (talk) 23:27, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- I get tired of harping on this, but here goes, again: An organization or individual's definition of themselves is a primary source. Wikipedia uses reliable secondary sources for information in articles, when they're available, and in this case, they're plentiful and readily available. End of story. Rockypedia (talk) 01:12, 6 February 2016 (UTC)