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:::That has already been done, many times. If you choose to not see them then we can't help you further. Your conduct here on the talk page is classic TE, and if you are doing it purposefully, then that is not allowed. If you persist, you will not be taken seriously and just ignored.[[User:Giovanni33|Giovanni33]] 19:22, 28 July 2007 (UTC) |
:::That has already been done, many times. If you choose to not see them then we can't help you further. Your conduct here on the talk page is classic TE, and if you are doing it purposefully, then that is not allowed. If you persist, you will not be taken seriously and just ignored.[[User:Giovanni33|Giovanni33]] 19:22, 28 July 2007 (UTC) |
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::::No sources has been presented which mentions human rights organizations accusing the US of terrorism or state terrorism. I again ask you to give them, much better than personal attacks. [[Ad hominem]] is not a valid argument.[[User:Ultramarine|Ultramarine]] 19:41, 28 July 2007 (UTC) |
::::No sources has been presented which mentions human rights organizations accusing the US of terrorism or state terrorism. I again ask you to give them, much better than personal attacks. [[Ad hominem]] is not a valid argument.[[User:Ultramarine|Ultramarine]] 19:41, 28 July 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::When you close your eyes, the world does not disappear. I think as far as myself is concerned, I will simpyl reply to you with a source or something and not engage in pointless chit chat after. Your lying has proven to be detrimental to my work and research here. --[[User:SevenOfDiamonds|SevenOfDiamonds]] 19:47, 28 July 2007 (UTC) |
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El Salvador
This entire section seems to rely on the opinion of one source, Frederick Garneau. Garneau manages to get a whopping 86 hits on goolge, none in google books, and none on google scholar. It would seem that this section does not have any quality references, and as such will be removed. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 20:26, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, please do remove it since it serves no purpose except to advance the proposition that America=evil.--Beguiled 21:40, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
- While that may be true, it is also true that there are no WP:RS's for this and as such, it will go now. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 21:48, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I just readded the critique of Chomsky and Ganser which was removed. Without adequate critique of the critics viewpoints this article is POV and one-sided.--Beguiled 21:50, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
- Then we can add more sources. The critic is notable, and he belongs here. The section should be supplemented with more sources, I agree, but there is no consensus to remove the whole section. So I restored it.Giovanni33 22:14, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
- Then by all means, add sources, because the single source in the article now is not notable. No book hits for him and only 86 hits on google. An extraordinary claim like “The USA engaged in State Sponsored Terrorism in so and so” needs a better source than PHD Bumblefucknobody whose only claim to fame is being the departmental chair for Women Studies at the Keokuk Community Technical Colege of Drama and Dance. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 22:37, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
- Please seek community concensus before blanking, and please note concensus is not often reached in an hour, as that does not give anyone time to respond to your concerns. --SevenOfDiamonds 23:41, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
- Then by all means, add sources, because the single source in the article now is not notable. No book hits for him and only 86 hits on google. An extraordinary claim like “The USA engaged in State Sponsored Terrorism in so and so” needs a better source than PHD Bumblefucknobody whose only claim to fame is being the departmental chair for Women Studies at the Keokuk Community Technical Colege of Drama and Dance. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 22:37, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
- Well, by all means lets get concensizing. Does one obsure source an article section make? Torturous Devastating Cudgel 15:22, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
- I'm sure you can find additional sources to add, to support the material, instead of blanking it. Did you even try, I wonder?Giovanni33 16:01, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
- Well, by all means lets get concensizing. Does one obsure source an article section make? Torturous Devastating Cudgel 15:22, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
- Where can I read the section that Torturous Devastating Cudgel deleted please? Thanks, FightCancer 10:15, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
El Salvador and César Vielman Joya Martínez
From the 1993 book What Uncle Sam Really Wants by Noam Chomsky:link
"The Jesuits were murdered by the Atlacatl Battalion, an elite unit created, trained and equipped by the United States. It was formed in March 1981, when fifteen specialists in counterinsurgency were sent to El Salvador from the US Army School of Special Forces. From the start, the Battalion was engaged in mass murder. A US trainer described its soldiers as "particularly ferocious.... We've always had a hard time getting [them] to take prisoners instead of ears."
In December 1981, the Battalion took part in an operation in which over a thousand civilians were killed in an orgy of murder, rape and burning. Later it was involved in the bombing of villages and murder of hundreds of civilians by shooting, drowning and other methods. The vast majority of victims were women, children and the elderly.
The Atlacatl Battalion was being trained by US Special Forces shortly before murdering the Jesuits. This has been a pattern throughout the Battalion's existence — some of its worst massacres have occurred when it was fresh from US training. . . .
According to Rev. Santiago, macabre scenes of this kind aren't uncommon.
People are not just killed by death squads in El Salvador — they are decapitated and then their heads are placed on pikes and used to dot the landscape. Men are not just disemboweled by the Salvadoran Treasury Police; their severed genitalia are stuffed into their mouths. Salvadoran women are not just raped by the National Guard; their wombs are cut from their bodies and used to cover their faces. It is not enough to kill children; they are dragged over barbed wire until the flesh falls from their bones, while parents are forced to watch.
Is the following an acceptable source? link Page 199 +
Can someobody with Lexis look up Joya Martínez' testimony to the Church Commitee or whichever US panel he testified to? Bmedley Sutler 05:41, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
- Spiffy as that above quote was, no where is it mentioned that this was an act of state terrorism by the United States, and the inclusion would seem to be WP:OR. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 14:11, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
- Agreed. There are a lot of sections like that. Lot's of OR and Synthesis. People die = State Terrorism is not a valid argument for inclusion. --Tbeatty 14:19, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
- Give this man a cookie! Torturous Devastating Cudgel 14:26, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
- Agreed. This article is a dumping ground for OR and personal essays.Ultramarine 15:14, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
- And make it TWO, count 'em, two cookies for Ultramarine. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 15:19, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
"an elite unit created, trained and equipped by the United States" Bmedley Sutler 22:10, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
- and.... what, exactly comes after this? Cause from where I am sitting I see no text that specificly cites this as an "act of terrorism", or am I missing something? Torturous Devastating Cudgel 02:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- I hope you don't mind that I slightly adjusted the formatting of the Chomsky excerpt above for readability. In the future, I propose we consider this link ( http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/sam/sam-contents.html ) as it contains the entire book online. Also, it may be worth including that Chomsky specifically stated elsewhere in December, 1991 that "all of this is international terrorism, supported or directly organized in Washington with the assistance of its international network of mercenary states." [1] FightCancer 10:55, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Vandalism, and the boy who done cried wolf
People, could we please refrain from calling an edit we dont like vandalism. This IS a content dispute, and throwing around accusations of vandalism only make those who do it look like they are crying wolf. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 01:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry but blanking sourced material against consensus, and waithout any valid reason is NOT a legitimate edit by any stretch. It is what it is, and that IS' vandalism.Giovanni33 01:56, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- calling content disputes vandalism is uncivil and grounds for blocking. --Tbeatty 04:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- A content dispute should be obvious by now to Giovanni33. Numerous editors have disagreed with adding the section about the use of Atomic Bombs on Japan = state terrorism and the select use of references are not a strong indication that this is anymore than an extremely minor viewpoint. I have heard it referred to much more frequently as akin to a War Crime, but not as terrorism, which is the focus of this article afterall.--MONGO 04:21, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- To blank sourced material over and over, against consensus, and not use the talk to exlain or attemt to address the problems, but just blank the entire thing is vandalism. If you want to gain consensus to remove the section because its not a signifant pov, and it does not have signifant adherents, then an editor has to get consenus first. Most disagree that these claims lack significant adherents, when we presented all the sources above for discussion and everyone agreed it was appropriate for inclusion (including yourself Mongo)--except Tebetty, who didn't give any good reasons.Giovanni33 04:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- As I stated on User talk:Junglecat, nine of the fifteen cited sources have serious issues, such as verifiability problems (self-published sources of transcribed primary sources), bias problems, or self-admitted reliability issues. When the majority of the sources are bad, it's better to remove the whole thing and start from scratch than leave it, per WP:V. It's a swilling together of poor sources (many allegedly primary sources) to advance a position. That does qualify as OR, and should be removed and not replaced until it is repaired. The burden is not on those removing, it is on those wishing to include. - Crockspot 04:51, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- Nonsense. It uses reliable, verifiable sources to report from notable and significant adherents of the claim that the nuclear attack was an act of state terrorism. It presents the consensus view and then discusses in detail, by quoting those reliable sources (academics in their areas of expertise: Mark Selden (sociology and History- Binghampton), Alvin Y. So (Hong Kong University), Richard Falk (Princeton), Bruce Cumings (History, University of Chicago) and Ben Kiernan (History, Yale University), and Howard Zinn (History, Pol.Sci. Boston University) ). There is NO OR, and blanking the whole section over and over while failing to state why (except in edit summaries claiming OR), is not appropriate.Giovanni33 04:54, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but we must be looking at different source lists, because most of the ones I viewed were hosted on various home pages. They CLAIM to be legit, but there is no verification. (Actually, one disclaims any guarantee of accuracy, nice eh?) - Crockspot 05:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
“To blank sourced material over and over, against consensus, and not use the talk to explain or attempt to address the problems, but just blank the entire thing is vandalism.” This would be correct if there was a consensus to keep the material.
“If you want to gain consensus to remove the section because its not a signifant pov, and it does not have signifant adherents, then an editor has to get consensus first.” No, it does not work that way, if a consensus is required, then it is a consensus to keep that is required, specifically (check WP:V ) there is no requirement to form a consensuses to remove an item, only legitimate ground for doing so. The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. They are the ones required to gain consensuses if the material has been challenged.
It is not acceptable to add material in, and then demand a “consensus” to remove it; that would be backwards. Brimba 05:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- Proof of consensus obtained prior to adding this material by editors on both sides of the fense:[[2]] To remove, esp. blank-like any major edit--requires consensus be obtained first. It goes both ways. I abided by it to add the material, but the blanking was done by editors who jumped it to attack it--by blanking-- without consenus, afterwards. With no explanation, I call that vandalism.Giovanni33 05:39, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I was addressing the points of your argument, not the subject matter. I did check the talk section, and if you see a consensus there, sorry I do not; a numerical advantage is not a consensus. If it where AFD’s would be a lot more clear-cut as it would remove the “Keep (no consensus)” option, everything would be a strait up-and-down vote, and the outcome would be clear cut and unambiguous.
Removing material for cause is fair and legal, whether the edited out part is major or minor, as long as it follows guidelines and there is a legitimate reason for it. In cases where items are edited out and the edit summery box is left blank, then yes that would smack of vandalism; and whether vandalism or simple neglect, it should be reverted.
You are claiming consensus existed prior to anyone seeing exactly what they where agreeing to, because it did not exist in a finished form at the time “concensus” was “achieved”. Clearly more people are now involved in the editing of that section then the people who originally expressed opinions. It is YOUR job as an editor to show that there is still a consensus to retain the material. That’s how the rules are set up.
It is not a two way street. It is not a case of one once consensus is achieved, then consensus lives on eternally. Editors are free to invoke the rules laid out in the guidelines. People not involved in the original discussion a free to join in and edit. Nothing is locked in place. WP:V puts the ball in your court (or who ever is wishing to retain the material, or any material), -it is most certainly not a two way street.
When material is blanked without a reason being given, then yes that should be reverted pronto. However, if legitimate concerns are raised, then it is the job of the person wishing to maintain that material to answer the concerns. Brimba 07:08, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- I think your proposed method of editing is wrong. How is someone supposed to address the concern if the objection is never explained? Simply claiming OR in an edit summary, and refusing to explain how or why they think its OR on talk or on their tak page- is not acceptable--esp. when the reason given is absurd on its surface, given the ample sources that are used in the section. No, its clear to me that when something is added with CLEAR consensus (only one editor disagreeing), then someone has no right to blank it all out later, just because they make some claim in an edit summary that is not supported by any arguments on talk. I call that the most insidious form of vandalism since it hides under the pretext of a legitimate reason. Any major edit that is clearly contested, requies at a bare minimum, that a case be made on talk before its taken. To revert and revert 3 times each, tag teaming by a handful of POV motivated editors (they wanted it alll deleted), without respect for consensus established, or respect for the process (to come here and make a case), is intolerable. I told them many times, after they were reverted by numerous editors, that I'd be happy to address any objections they had and get if fixed. But, did they bother to respond? No. Just continued the blanking. This is then just more evidence of vandalism.Giovanni33 07:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- It's been explained many, many, many times by many, many, many editors. Explaining it in detail every time you readd the material is counterproductive as it is obviously having no effect. Reread the comments, stop adding the Original Research and Undue Weight opinions and there will be no reason for you to continue edit warring. --Tbeatty 07:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- More lies? Never explained, never justifed and blanked against consensus of all editors who discussed the content before it was added, except yourself, whose arguments made no sense and were rejected. Getting your friends to jump in here and vandalize the article by blanking it will be opposed until the end of time. If you want the material removed, I suggest you actually make the case, as your claims are patentlly aburd. Then get consensus to change, and it wont be added in. Now it should be added in even though this page is protected because its removal was clearly vandalism.Giovanni33 08:09, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- giovanni, respectfully you need to move on from this point. This was not vandalism and is a simply a content dispute. Continuing call many well established editors vandals is simply eroding your good will. Further beating of this dead horse will honestly not help anything..(even if you are 100% right). We are, where we are. I kindly suggest that now is the time to start building a consensus for what changes need to be made to the article - be it inclusion of the WW II material or not. Until then, this bickering and name calling will lead nowhere positive. Dman727 08:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- The Japan section may be disputed content now but the section was added after consensus so to blank it without consensus is vandalism not a good faith edit. The burden is on the editors who oppose the section to now make their case. I would point out that the name of the article is “Allegations of” and the Japan section fully complies with the concept of an allegation. As such, the only way to dispute its inclusion now is to show it has no (or minimal) reliable sources. No editor opposing has done so yet. Wayne 08:21, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- Exactly, correct, and what I've been saying, and they have been ignoring. Ofcouse, one of the main editors who came in here just to blank this whole section against consensus, Dman727, wants to "move on" from this point. No. It stands as a valid point and until your blanking is justified by making a valid argument for it, or you achieve a new consensus for it though rationally addressing your blanking per policies, then it remains an act of vandalism that must be opposed in the strongest terms. Conensus was already to include the material. If you wish to change that the ball is in your court to do so. As of now, this is included material in the body of the article that will stand until there is consensus to remove it. I'm open to making any changes per consensus, and to fix any issues you may have of it. Simply calling it OR, when its clearly not, won't work,either.Giovanni33 08:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- Actually gionvanni, I've moved on. Its my suggestion that you do also. You may of course continue to beat this horse and continue yell "VANDALS VANDALS!", however I honestly do not believe it will lead to anything positive for you.Dman727 08:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- A consensus is not a license for lifelong inclusion. A consensus is a license for inclusion only as long as the consensus is in place. While I personally dispute that there ever was a consensus for the material, if it was then it is certainly long gone now. As for your suggest of bad faith edits I disagree. I came along and saw material that I feel clearly does not belong, read the talk pages and saw no reasonable basis for its inclusion so I removed it as a responsible editor should do. Furthermore, slandering of long established editors as "vandals" is not a best practice for consensus building, not to mention a violation of WP:CIVIL and simple good manners. Dman727 08:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- No you did act as any good editor should. If you went to talk as you claim you did, you would have seen there is clear consensus for it, with strong support, including across political perspetives. In fact, such consensus is rare on this article. Like I said, even Mongo reluctantly agreed to include. And, again, only ONE editor had objections to material. You can't miss that because I've pointed it out a number of times. Yes, consensus changes, and no one ever said its a life long inclusion. However, if you had objections, a good editor would bring them to the talk page (as I regularly do). Create a section, lodge your complaint, and make your case. Then allow others to respond and address it. If you felt you had to remove the section, but are opposed by a number of editors who revert you---a good editor does not keep reverting. He goes to the talk page to work out a solution and resolve the dispute. Better yet, a good editor seeks to establish a new consensus before making any major edits that are clearly contested (as this blanking was clearly contested--restored right after it was taken out each time by many editors--many more than those taking it out (who just jumped in to do only that for ths article). No, you did not act like a good editor. I have no doubt that you can be one, and maybe you are one generally. But in this particular instance your action here is to support a great wrong akin to vandalism. Being a long term established editor here is no immunity from acting like a vandal. The solution is not to remove my label, its to remove the actions that the label correctly fits: dont mass blank an entire well referenced and topical entire section that was arrived at though consensus on the talk page--without even bothering to go to talk to make your case to change consensus---and then keep doing so after you are opposed. That kind of blanking I will call vandalism as it objectively is so, no matter who is doing it. Its simply not acceptable, and I know of no stronger word to characterize it that is more fitting.Giovanni33 09:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- Save the lecture - I've read your block log[[3]] Dman727 14:00, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- No you did act as any good editor should. If you went to talk as you claim you did, you would have seen there is clear consensus for it, with strong support, including across political perspetives. In fact, such consensus is rare on this article. Like I said, even Mongo reluctantly agreed to include. And, again, only ONE editor had objections to material. You can't miss that because I've pointed it out a number of times. Yes, consensus changes, and no one ever said its a life long inclusion. However, if you had objections, a good editor would bring them to the talk page (as I regularly do). Create a section, lodge your complaint, and make your case. Then allow others to respond and address it. If you felt you had to remove the section, but are opposed by a number of editors who revert you---a good editor does not keep reverting. He goes to the talk page to work out a solution and resolve the dispute. Better yet, a good editor seeks to establish a new consensus before making any major edits that are clearly contested (as this blanking was clearly contested--restored right after it was taken out each time by many editors--many more than those taking it out (who just jumped in to do only that for ths article). No, you did not act like a good editor. I have no doubt that you can be one, and maybe you are one generally. But in this particular instance your action here is to support a great wrong akin to vandalism. Being a long term established editor here is no immunity from acting like a vandal. The solution is not to remove my label, its to remove the actions that the label correctly fits: dont mass blank an entire well referenced and topical entire section that was arrived at though consensus on the talk page--without even bothering to go to talk to make your case to change consensus---and then keep doing so after you are opposed. That kind of blanking I will call vandalism as it objectively is so, no matter who is doing it. Its simply not acceptable, and I know of no stronger word to characterize it that is more fitting.Giovanni33 09:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- Exactly, correct, and what I've been saying, and they have been ignoring. Ofcouse, one of the main editors who came in here just to blank this whole section against consensus, Dman727, wants to "move on" from this point. No. It stands as a valid point and until your blanking is justified by making a valid argument for it, or you achieve a new consensus for it though rationally addressing your blanking per policies, then it remains an act of vandalism that must be opposed in the strongest terms. Conensus was already to include the material. If you wish to change that the ball is in your court to do so. As of now, this is included material in the body of the article that will stand until there is consensus to remove it. I'm open to making any changes per consensus, and to fix any issues you may have of it. Simply calling it OR, when its clearly not, won't work,either.Giovanni33 08:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- The Japan section may be disputed content now but the section was added after consensus so to blank it without consensus is vandalism not a good faith edit. The burden is on the editors who oppose the section to now make their case. I would point out that the name of the article is “Allegations of” and the Japan section fully complies with the concept of an allegation. As such, the only way to dispute its inclusion now is to show it has no (or minimal) reliable sources. No editor opposing has done so yet. Wayne 08:21, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Strothra insists that your personal attack isn't technically a personal attack. Regardless, it's definitely not civil or productive, so let's stick to the issues, if any. ThAtSo 19:51, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- (Reset indent. ElinorD (talk) 10:00, 22 July 2007 (UTC))
- I don't see how the above is an appropriate part of this dispute. Its off topic and centers on the editor, instead of the edits. That makes it an attack on the person, hence personal attack. Srothra, can you explain why its not, or else I'll remove it. This page should stay focus on content issues. Thanks.Giovanni33 20:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- The comment above discusses the editor's edits, not him personally. Claiming to remove the comment based on WP:NPA is a far stretch. If Giovanni is embarassed by his block log, I would suggest no longer violating Wiki policies. I've been blocked once myself before, but I'm not going to try to claim WP:NPA every time another editor brings it up in addressing the good faith of edits. --Strothra 20:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
<-- I'm not embarassed (I think it would be embarassing for the admins--if you look most are blocks were overturned with some wheel waring going on--nothing to be proud of), I just feel its completely off topic, and not relevant to the content dispute. The logical fallacy of poisioning the well, is in fact a special case of ad-hominen. Should we take this issue to another board to discuss, because our resolution of this issue, is also off topic on this board. However, I think allowing the above to continue is counter productive.Giovanni33 20:29, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- Both of you should end your dispute now and move onto discussing the article. I'm not supporting the removal of the comment because it is not a personal attack, it's a comment on your edits and, as such, you cannot edit another user's comments. --Strothra 20:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- Absolutely. I lost interest in this thread several passages up. I've dropped the matter and I'll re-suggest that giovanni do also. Nonetheless I can only decide for myself, if anyone wants to get in this last word or continue the conversation they free to do so without further input from me. Dman727 20:55, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- This dispute is not over, not settled. Since you reverted my message to you about resolving it on your talk page, Srothra, I guess I have to respond here (which is further off topic). The reason why this has to be resolved is that it's a repeated tactic that is not appropriate, counter productive and this needs to be made clear. You yourself concede that its mean to call into question the good faith nature of my edits (thus its focus is on the editor--not the dispute). If you disagree and insist on allowing this kind of attack to continue, I'll file a Rfc. I'm sure this is not OK, esp. not in this article, which is rampant with allowing such divisive, off-topic, and uncivil communications by this small handful of disruptive editors. For you to side with them here only ads to the problem. We need to go in the other direction and have less tolerance for such conduct. Is a Rfc really required for you to see this? I suggest you review this fallacy here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well. I'll quote: Poisoning the well is a logical fallacy where adverse information about someone is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that person is about to say. "Poisoning the well is a special case of argumentum ad hominem. " Also:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem:Ad hominem abusive or ad personam, the subtype it fits:Ad hominem abusive (also called argumentum ad personam) usually and most notoriously involves insulting or belittling one's opponent, but can also involve pointing out factual but ostensibly damning character flaws or actions which are irrelevant to the opponent's argument. This tactic is logically fallacious because insults and even true negative facts about the opponent's personal character have nothing to do with the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions. This tactic is frequently employed as a propaganda tool among politicians who are attempting to influence the voter base in their favor through an appeal to emotion rather than by logical means, especially when their own position is logically weaker than their opponent's." In order to show this is not the case, a relevant connection need to be established between the block log and this current content dispute. Since I pointed out this block log is of blocks over a year old, and pertain to other issues not related to this, it remains an ad hominem attack. For you to also say that while its off topic, other things are off topic here, is also invalid reasoning and the logical fallacy of "two wrongs make a right."Giovanni33 21:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- Your block log is entirely relevant especially in this discussion about your accusations of vandalism over a content dispute. Your block log will be used to determine how long your next block will be. It is not a personal attack to highlight your past behavior and how it is similar to your current behavior. That's why there is a link to your block log in standard templates such as user5 Giovanni33 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log). You should be less concerned with editors highlighting your block history and more concerned that most users need to scroll down to see them all. --Tbeatty 23:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- This dispute is not over, not settled. Since you reverted my message to you about resolving it on your talk page, Srothra, I guess I have to respond here (which is further off topic). The reason why this has to be resolved is that it's a repeated tactic that is not appropriate, counter productive and this needs to be made clear. You yourself concede that its mean to call into question the good faith nature of my edits (thus its focus is on the editor--not the dispute). If you disagree and insist on allowing this kind of attack to continue, I'll file a Rfc. I'm sure this is not OK, esp. not in this article, which is rampant with allowing such divisive, off-topic, and uncivil communications by this small handful of disruptive editors. For you to side with them here only ads to the problem. We need to go in the other direction and have less tolerance for such conduct. Is a Rfc really required for you to see this? I suggest you review this fallacy here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well. I'll quote: Poisoning the well is a logical fallacy where adverse information about someone is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that person is about to say. "Poisoning the well is a special case of argumentum ad hominem. " Also:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem:Ad hominem abusive or ad personam, the subtype it fits:Ad hominem abusive (also called argumentum ad personam) usually and most notoriously involves insulting or belittling one's opponent, but can also involve pointing out factual but ostensibly damning character flaws or actions which are irrelevant to the opponent's argument. This tactic is logically fallacious because insults and even true negative facts about the opponent's personal character have nothing to do with the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions. This tactic is frequently employed as a propaganda tool among politicians who are attempting to influence the voter base in their favor through an appeal to emotion rather than by logical means, especially when their own position is logically weaker than their opponent's." In order to show this is not the case, a relevant connection need to be established between the block log and this current content dispute. Since I pointed out this block log is of blocks over a year old, and pertain to other issues not related to this, it remains an ad hominem attack. For you to also say that while its off topic, other things are off topic here, is also invalid reasoning and the logical fallacy of "two wrongs make a right."Giovanni33 21:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
- Absolutely. I lost interest in this thread several passages up. I've dropped the matter and I'll re-suggest that giovanni do also. Nonetheless I can only decide for myself, if anyone wants to get in this last word or continue the conversation they free to do so without further input from me. Dman727 20:55, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
<-- An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the person", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. It is most commonly used to refer specifically to the ad hominem abusive, or argumentum ad personam, which consists of criticizing or personally attacking an argument's proponent in an attempt to discredit that argument. --SevenOfDiamonds 03:06, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
- Yes. And I point you to WP:RS. We evaluate sources ad hominem all the time. The reason why your arguments can't be cited while recognized experts can be is the basic premise of Wikipedia even if they are the same arguments. Who makes the argument is everything to Wikipedia. In the same way, Giovanni's block log is relevant. You can parrot and plagiarize the Ad hominem article, but understanding it's application and how it relates to evaluating editors and sources is a much more important skill. --Tbeatty 07:23, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
- Before you can even attempt to apply it you have to first understand the term. You showed below you didn't even understand this term. I hope we corrected that. An ad hominen fallacy is unacceptable, fallacious reasoning no matter where it comes up. And to invoke it is to make a personal attack. Its a sign of weakness that you can't actually argue the merits of the case, hence you attack the messenger instead.Giovanni33 09:52, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
- You still failed to make the connection. You say its esp. relevent in this discussion about vandalism and conent dispute. How? You make statement, but you fail to supply support for yoru claim. If you are going to make an argument you actually have to make an argument. Simply making a claim is not making an argument. The premise must be supported, not restated. I'm not concerned with block log, I'm conerned with fallacious reasoning, attacking the editor instead of dealing with the actual arguments---which I'll point out are still being ignored (and instead you want to argue about my block log of OVER A YEAR AGO that had NOTHING to do with this issue? Again, make your case or else admit that its a personal attack that you are continuing because you have no argument to make concerning the real issues.Giovanni33 01:30, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
- I'm sorry that you don't like the argument. I've only stated that an editors block log is relevant to his value as an editor. Your disruption and incivility in referring to other editors as "vandals" is consistent with your extensive block log. You certainly have the ability to reverse this perception but it is up to you. No one would care about your block log if your actions weren't uncivil and disruptive. --Tbeatty 07:23, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
- You still failed to make the connection. You say its esp. relevent in this discussion about vandalism and conent dispute. How? You make statement, but you fail to supply support for yoru claim. If you are going to make an argument you actually have to make an argument. Simply making a claim is not making an argument. The premise must be supported, not restated. I'm not concerned with block log, I'm conerned with fallacious reasoning, attacking the editor instead of dealing with the actual arguments---which I'll point out are still being ignored (and instead you want to argue about my block log of OVER A YEAR AGO that had NOTHING to do with this issue? Again, make your case or else admit that its a personal attack that you are continuing because you have no argument to make concerning the real issues.Giovanni33 01:30, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
- Before you can even attempt to apply it you have to first understand the term. You showed below you didn't even understand this term. I hope we corrected that. An ad hominen fallacy is unacceptable, fallacious reasoning no matter where it comes up. And to invoke it is to make a personal attack. Its a sign of weakness that you can't actually argue the merits of the case, hence you attack the messenger instead.Giovanni33 09:52, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
<-- Again, you just make claims but supply no argument. Care to try again? You say its relevant but you fail to show any relevancy of my past block log of over a year ago for matters unrelated to anything here, and this content dispute. Just saying its relevant does not make it so. That is not an argument. Its just an ad hominen fallacy. You apparently yet are not able to distinguish the two, and for that I am sorry for you. And, if you don't like to be thought of as a vandel (you and Dman727, then don't like one--as you did on this article by blanking sourced material against consenus. That IS vandalism in practice. And, this has nothing to do with my past block log, but nice try to deflect away from the facts of your shameful behavior here. Everyone has noted it.Giovanni33 08:05, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
- Evaluation of editors and sources are, by definition, ad hominem. The reasons for your many blocks are not relveant here, however, your extensive block log is relevant. As an example, a 3-time felony perjurer has no credibility in court when it comes to telling the truth. He can cry ad hominem all he wants and claim that his prior convictions for perjury have no relevance. But the reality is that felony convictions for perjury are relevant to establishing credibility regardless of whether the content of the previous lies are related to the current discussion. Ad hominem fallacy applies to discoverying truth, not reliability. Ad hominem reasoning is perfectly acceptable when trying to determine credibility and reliability. You need to understand that if you are going to continue to write sections for articles that are sourced using very dubious sources. Wikipedia is about reliable sources, not truth, therefore arguments about credibility are perfectly legitimate. --Tbeatty 08:43, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
{VERY indented post above removed, as Giovanni has duplicated it below. Indent reduced on other posts. ElinorD (talk) 10:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC))
(Per request for those whose browser can't handle the extreme indent above): Tebeatty, that is at least an argument, but your argument fails, and reveals you have a faulty conception of the term itself. This is because we are not here to determine my crediblity or reliablity--we are here to determine the reliablity and crediblity of the edits, i.e. the sources, and the arguments and reasonsoning supporting their use, as topical, relevant, encylopedic, etc: all WP policies about the content of the article. That is the issue. Since, I am not the issue here for this article's issues, then your bringing up questions of my personal "reliablity, crediblity," is indeed an ad hominem fallacy. I'm not here in court of law giving personal testimony where my credibility is at issue (then it would not be an ad hominen fallacy btw). It does become a fallacy when you shift the relevant issue to one that is not relevant, i.e. the issue about this article, which is independant of the editor making the arguments (i.e. myself). Ad hominen does not apply to discovering the truth, as you claim. Let me quote: "An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument."[4] Do not mix up evaluation of editors and sources, as you do. They are different things. We evaulate sources--not editors. Editor are not on trial here, our sources are. Get the difference? But, good try. Now can we focus on the articles issues instead of on my past block log? Its irrelvant and therefore an ad hominem fallacy.Giovanni33 09:04, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
- It was your choice to turn this section into a debate about "good editors" vs. "vandals".[5]. Since that is the essence of ad hominem your cries about how your extensive block history is not relevant and that accounts of your past behavior is not relevant to a discussion about others being "good editors" or "vandals" is laughable. Dman pointed out your hypocrisy of trying to label editors by highlighting your block log. Is it your contention that ad hominem logic is only deplorable when it is used to highlight your hypocrisy but perfectly acceptable in labeling editors you disagree with? --Tbeatty 09:22, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
- An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the person", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. It is most commonly used to refer specifically to the ad hominem abusive, or argumentum ad personam, which consists of criticizing or personally attacking an argument's proponent in an attempt to discredit that argument. --SevenOfDiamonds 12:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
- WP:POINT If you feel something was against policy or "wrong", do not repeat it to make a point, or because "someone else did it first" --SevenOfDiamonds 12:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
- I'm surprised you still seem not to grasp the concept of the ad hominem fallacy. I do think I explained it rather clearly. This is about blanking sourced material against consensus and failing to even bother to explain why, much less actually attempt to gain consensus before such major contested edits. Such actions are not acceptable, and that what was done here--NOW. It has nothing to do with my past block log of last year. To respond with my block log is to evade the issue, bring up something irrelevant, hence its an ad hominem fallacy. I will note that you now seem to be invoking two fallacies. One is embracing the ad hominen, but the other, now, "two wrongs make a right,' by saying I'm being hypocritical (even though that claim is untrue, as I never behaved this way in editing), which makes it a special subset of ad hominen: Ad hominem tu quoque. Look it up.Giovanni33 09:40, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't have any background knowledge about the subject, and haven't looked at the history of the article, but I'd like to point out that it's a very bad idea to call the removal of sourced material vandalism. Whenever I see such accusations, I predict that the next thing will be a 3RR violation on the grounds that reverting vandalism is exempt from 3RR, and then a block. There is a lot of material for which one could find a source but which still isn't appropriate to a particular article because it bloats it, because it's not relevant, because it tilts the POV or the article away from neutrality, etc. If an anonymous editor indiscriminately and randomly blanks large sections of different articles, while offering no explanation, by all means, call it vandalism. If several established editors remove something because they feel it doesn't belong in the article, then, sorry, no matter how well sourced the material is, the removal is not vandalism. ElinorD (talk) 10:20, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
- Is this serious? Are you honestly saying a group of established editors cannot vandalize an article ... I have been asking and no one will answer, but is edit count really a blank check to do as you please? --SevenOfDiamonds 12:23, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
- I didn't say that. I talked about indiscriminately and randomly blanking sections of different articles. I am talking about the occasional case of an anonymous editor who blanks a large portion of George W. Bush, with no edit summary, often leaving the remaining text incoherent, as the blanking might start and finish in the middle of sentences, then goes on immediately to do the same thing (again without edit summary) to Lion, then does it to Michael Jackson, then to Cod liver oil, then to University of California, then to Golden Toad, then to Mushroom, then to Swimming pool, all in rapid succession, and with no edit summary. That does happen occasionally, and I think we can call it vandalism. (Incidentally, Wikipedians are encouraged to be sensitive towards anons who blank portions of articles about living people, as the anon might in fact be the subject of the article and find something in it objectionable.)
- As a general rule, people who vandalise don't do anything else. That's why registered users whose first edits are vandalism may be immediately blocked indefinitely as vandalism-only accounts. We don't do that with IPs, of course, as the IP may be assigned to a different person the next day. Established users are statistically far less likely to vandalise. So it's a matter of common sense to assume that featured article writers, administrators with an excellent record of housekeeping chores, and other respected editors, who disagree that a particular piece of information belongs in an article, even if it's sourced, and remove it, but don't go on immediately to do the same thing to another article, and another, and another, are probably not vandals. This is a content dispute, pure and simple, so would people please stop using the word vandalism. ElinorD (talk) 19:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
- As before, I agree with your reasoning and the facts you state are accurate (except we did not have an admin here blank this--it was a group of established editors with strong POV, and strong dislike for this articles subject matter, who have been trying to get the whole thing deleted now over 6 times). The part I disagree with is when you go from the valid generalized statement about normal assumptions we make about established users who do not randomly vandalize articles, and that they are probably not vandals (so far so good), to the specific conclusion that this is only a content dispute. That last conclusion is in error, in this case. It may happen rarely but it did happen in this case. The logical inference did not follow to support that conclusion based on the evidence we have. What we had here was vandalism conducted by a group of established who did so under the false banner of “original research is not allowed.” It was thus not a blind type of vandalism but specifically targeted to this subject matter;a “I don't like it, so I'm going to blank” type of vandalism, or “ I can't win by making an argument, consensus is against me, so I'm just going to hit and run” type of attack to get what I want anyway. It may not be your run of the mill common, petty vandal that you describe, but this is no less vandalism--of the POV type. Its much worse, and more rare than the common type. Its putting into affect their failed AfD attempts, but piecemeal, by blanking the best sourced sections that make this article stronger. Its distruption of the article, to get it locked in a vandalized state. To use an analogy, think of the difference between a common, petty criminal, and a dirty cop. Or, say, a politician. We have lots of examples of people in respected seats, trusted with power, who still are able to commit crimes (and often get away with it). Now, if I'm wrong, then I'll happily admit it, and apologize--if the blanking editors can answer the question: Where is the alleged OR, and why didn't they bother to explain instead of repeating blanking the whole section, against consensus? But, so far the facts support my conclusion. Giovanni33 20:03, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
- Is this serious? Are you honestly saying a group of established editors cannot vandalize an article ... I have been asking and no one will answer, but is edit count really a blank check to do as you please? --SevenOfDiamonds 12:23, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
- I understand what you are saying, and agree with everything you said, except that part where you say all it takes is being an established editor, and then its not vandalism (but if an anon does it, it is). I don't think that should be the only difference. If an anon blanks valid sourced material and does not explain the reasons, against consensus (does not even participate or try to)--just blanks it repeatedly, over and over--we can it vandalism. Well that is exactly what happened here with the only difference being they were established editors. Being established does not give them a license to do the same. It’s completely unacceptable and looks like vandalism, and without an explanation can be so called. In fact, in my view, its the worse kind of vandalism, as its more insidious in nature given we are expected to trust established editors, and think there must be a legitimate reason for it, and maybe they thought it was or really was OR, as they claimed in the edit summary. Clearly it was not, and that was a fabrication (which explains why they can't talk about it, and answer my question: Where is the OR?) No, established or not, they broke that trust when they acted like a typical vandal in the night. Let is never happen again. Before any editor jumps into an article to blank its well sourced material, and they find that they are opposed by many other established editors who regularly work on that page, and who point to the fact that the material was carefully added afar long discussion of many editors who agreed it was appropriate--but they ignore this and continue to blank over and over--then they are vandalizing the article. Only they know why they do so, but it stands unjustified, unexplained. I'm still waiting for Junglecat to answer the simple question: Where is the OR?! To me this looks like a POV attack on an article they wanted deleted, and to get the article locked in a vandalized state. Can a group of established editors do this? Sure they can. It happened here. I also agree that, even though it is vandalism to this page objectively, we still can not revert more than 3 times, until that is clearly established as vandalism (part of what makes this kind of vandal action all the more damaging). However, since a vast majority of serious and established editors on this article opposed this blanking, and supported this material (17 and counting), no one needed to violate 3RR to revert them. Their blanking was reverted right away, and the conensus section was restored.Giovanni33 10:42, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
- See my remarks above. ElinorD (talk) 19:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
- See my response above.Giovanni33 20:04, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
- See my remarks above. ElinorD (talk) 19:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
"When the majority of the sources are bad, it's better to remove the whole thing and start from scratch than leave it, per WP:V." Crockspot, I'm not seeing that directive anywhere. Why not improve instead of remove? FightCancer 11:17, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Edit protected
NB. Hey who deleted stuff from this talk page? 199.125.109.55 17:38, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
{{editprotected}}
There is no consensus for the following additions/removals. --Tbeatty 15:22, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. There is no consensus for the changes that appear to be requested. To make it worse, honestly this talk page is a mess and its not 100% what changes are being requested and even if this place in the text is the correct place to agree/disagree. Dman727 16:37, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Also agreed. There is no consensus for these edits, and the page is protected because of this dispute. It's one thing to ask for the removal of OR that everyone agrees is OR. It's quite another to try to skirt protection and get admins to add in what caused this page to be protected in the first place. I doubt that an admin would be willing to stick his or her neck out to add material to a protected page under dispute anyway, for there would surely be a shitstorm over it. Removal of obvious OR, many admins might be willing to do. - Crockspot 17:16, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
- I would remind Crockspot that there was no consensus to remove the section (which was originally added through consensus) so it should rightly be replaced so it can be discussed. This is especially important considering no editor has been able to find a reason to justify removing it yet. Blanking the section was what caused the page to be protected not as you incorrectly claim, adding it. It was just bad timing that the page was protected before the vandalism could be reverted. Adding the section would not require anything remotely resembling an admin "sticking his or her neck out" as it should have been in the article when it was protected in the first place. I'll assume good faith that your incorrect claims are not an attempt to scare admins away from putting it back. Wayne 17:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
- What are the objections to inserting Ultramarines version of the opposing views section? MartinDK 19:23, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
- I was stating the general attitude toward admins editing protected pages, for the benefit of the non admins who are asking for this slew of additions below that do not have consensus for adding. I doubt that I could "scare admins" if I tried. Again, it is reasonable, per WP:V, for an admin to remove from a protected page material that everyone agrees should be removed. It is very risky for an admin to add disputed information to a protected page. It's a fact that admins know, but apparently some run of the mill editors don't know. The comment was directed at those editors. It is a waste of talk page space to put up a laundry list of disputed additions, and expect any admin to hop to and add them. - Crockspot 18:04, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
The proposed changes are supported as a consensus from a review of the talk page, including the archives. The way to create a balanced article is to include all points of view, not arbitrarily try to make them go away by asking that the article be renamed or deleted. 199.125.109.25 17:59, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
- Laying it all out like the above will only confuse and deter an admin from altering the page. To put it simply the paragraph mentioned in point 2 needs to be deleted and the section that was the subject of the revert war replaced. Checking history will show exactly what section that is. A simple 2 edits and problem solved. Then we can move on to working out how the section should read rather than argue. Wayne 18:04, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with this approach. Further modifications can be done aftewards. Lets keep it simple sounds like a good approach.Giovanni33 23:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
- Laying it all out like the above will only confuse and deter an admin from altering the page. To put it simply the paragraph mentioned in point 2 needs to be deleted and the section that was the subject of the revert war replaced. Checking history will show exactly what section that is. A simple 2 edits and problem solved. Then we can move on to working out how the section should read rather than argue. Wayne 18:04, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
- That section you are refering to, I think is the Japan section shown above and below. There were two other sections removed (the other is Philipines) but only the El Salvador section has been requested re-instated. 199.125.109.25 18:20, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
1. Change title to State terrorism by the United States
2. Remove the following paragraph:
Defenders of U.S. policy argue that American military interventions were justified in response to threats such as terrorism and Soviet aggression,[1] and in the end produced superior governments and freer societies.[2] The theoretical framework for the concept of state terrorism, and the evidence presented for U.S. state terrorism, are matters of considerable controversy.[citation needed]
3. Add the following section, after Guatamala:
El Salvador
In his analysis of the U.N. Truth Commision's Report on El Salvador, Frederick Garneau argued for significant culpability on the part of United States governments.
“ | As is usually the case with truth commissions, the one for El Salvador did not focus on Washington's support for the government. .. That terror was committed in El Salvador is not disputed. Those who doubt this should reread the above and realize that an estimated 75,000 were killed in this small country in the period 1980 to 1991. The truth commission found that the terrorism that was committed in the country was overwhelmingly governmental terrorism, committed by the Salvadoran army, the National Guard, and their death squads and affiliated agencies. They were responsible for 95 percent of the deaths, the guerrillas for only five percent. These were the same institutions that were the concern and the favorites of Washington—receiving its indoctrination and training and profiting from its largess. El Salvador received six billion dollars in aid from Washington in the period 1979 to 1992. This subsidy to the tiny country during the government repression and terrorism came to average out at $100,000 for each member of its armed forces. This subsidy allowed the government to pay for the terrorist activities committed by the security forces. By virtue of this largess and the military training, notably in counterinsurgency warfare, Washington emerges in this chapter as an accessory before and during the fact.By covering up for San Salvador after it had committed terror, Washington was an accessory after the fact. It gave diplomatic support to state terrorism.[3] | ” |
4. Add the following section, after Anti-communism (there was more deleted but it is very long):
Asia
Japan
Some legal scholars, historians, other governments, and human rights organizations have accused the United States of having committed acts of State terrorism as a result of the nuclear attacks against the Empire of Japan at the end of World War II. The 'atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki', remain the only time a state has used nuclear weapons against concentrated civilian populated areas. Some critics hold that it represents the single greatest act of state terrorism in the 20th Century. Some academics also consider that these bombings represent a genocide.[4][5]
The role of the bombings in Japan's surrender, as well as the effects and justification for them, has been subject to debate. In particular, the claims that these attacks were acts of state terrorism remain a matter of controversy. However, University of Chicago historian Bruce Cumings states there is a consensus among historians to Martin Sherwin's statement, that "the Nagasaki bomb was gratuitous at best and genocidal at worst."[6]
5. Replace the text in the section "Opposing views" with the following:
Opposing views
One reason for the support, by the US and other Western nations, for certain right-wing dictatorships is that it is rare for democracy to exist in nations with low economic development. In these nations the population often lack literacy, education, and are otherwise too poor to be be able to fully participate in a democratic process. Thus, supporting a dictatorship that promotes economic growth have often been seen as the best option available, anticipating that this will eventually lead to democratization. Right-wing dictatorships in nations such as Portugal, Spain, Greece, Turkey, Chile, Brazil, South Korea, Taiwan, Philippines, and Indonesia eventually become democracies. However, this view has been challenged recently by arguing that research shows that poor democracies perform better, including also on economic growth if excluding East Asia, than poor dictatorships.[6]
Supporters of the United States point out the United States rarely have used violence against other democracies. When the United States was involved in coups against democratic government, part of the explanation was the perception, correct or not, that these states were turning into Communist dictatorships. Also important was the role of rarely transparent United States government agencies, who sometimes mislead or did not fully implement the decisions of elected civilian leaders.[7]
Chomsky claims that the United States is a leading terrorist nation. However, actual empirical studies have found that democracies, including the United States, have killed much fewer civilians than dictatorships.[7][8][9][8] Media may falsely give the impression that Chomsky's claim is correct. Studies have found that New York Times coverage of worldwide human rights violations is biased, predominantly focusing on the human rights violations in nations where there is clear U.S. involvement, while having relatively little coverage of the human rights violations in other nations.[10][11] For example, the bloodiest war in recent time, involving eight nations and killing millions of civilians, was the Second Congo War, which was almost completely ignored by the media. Finally, those nations with military alliances with the US can spend less on the military and have a less active foreign policy since they can count on US protection. This may give a false impression that the US is less peaceful than those nations.[12][13]
That US soldiers have committed war crimes such as rapes and killing POWs is a fact. However, such acts are not approved or supported by the US government or the US military.[14] They are not the policy of the US government. The same applies even more to acts committed by to foreign groups supported but outside direct US control.
The US is blamed for every single human rights violations in nations or by groups they have in some way supported, regardless of if this was approved of by the foreign leaderships or not, and regardless of if the US have tried to use its influence to stop this or not. For example, the current article states that 200,000 people died during the long civil war in Guatemala and implies that the US was responsible, despite that the US for long periods cut of its military aid just because such violations, helped stop a coup in 1993, and made efforts to improve the conduct of the security services.[9]199.125.109.55 14:43, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Protected edit declined. No consensus apparent. Sandstein 08:51, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
- What is your reason for refusing to replace the opposing views section with Ultramarine's sourced and OR free version? There is no consensus on 1-4, number 5 has not been disputed, it does not constitute a change in how much weight is given to each side of this dispute and it counts as enforcing WP:OR and WP:V which are policies that must be satisfied regardless of any pseudo-concensus. Policy trumphs concensus. Any attempt to halt such an enforcement to gain the upper hand in another dispute or try to barter when there is nothing to barter about violates WP:POINT. Still neutral on 1-4. MartinDK 10:17, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Japan
Some legal scholars, historians, other governments, and human rights organizations have accused the United States of having committed acts of State terrorism as a result of the nuclear attacks against the Empire of Japan at the end of World War II. The 'atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki', remain the only time a state has used nuclear weapons against concentrated civilian populated areas. Some critics hold that it represents the single greatest act of state terrorism in the 20th Century. Some academics also consider that these bombings represent a genocide.[10][11]
The role of the bombings in Japan's surrender, as well as the effects and justification for them, has been subject to debate. In particular, the claims that these attacks were acts of state terrorism remain a matter of controversy. However, University of Chicago historian Bruce Cumings states there is a consensus among historians to Martin Sherwin's statement, that "the Nagasaki bomb was gratuitous at best and genocidal at worst."[12]
The arguments center around the targeting of innocents to achieve a political goal. Specifically, the fact that the Target Committee on May 10–11, 1945, rejected the use of the weapons against a strictly military objective, choosing a large civilian population to create a psychological effect that would be felt around the world. [13] They also center around claims that the attacks were militarily unnecessary, and transgressed moral barriers.[14][15] [16] [17][18][19]
Historian Howard Zinn wrote, "if 'terrorism' has a useful meaning (and I believe it does, because it marks off an act as intolerable, since it involves the indiscriminate use of violence against human beings for some political purpose), then it applies exactly to the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki."[15]
Zinn quoted the sociologist Kai Erikson:
“ | The attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not 'combat' in any of the ways that word is normally used. Nor were they primarily attempts to destroy military targets, for the two cities had been chosen not despite but because they had a high density of civilian housing. Whether the intended audience was Russian or Japanese or a combination of both, then the attacks were to be a show, a display, a demonstration. The question is: What kind of mood does a fundamentally decent people have to be in, what kind of moral arrangements must it make, before it is willing to annihilate as many as a quarter of a million human beings for the sake of making a point? | ” |
Similarly, Michael Walzer wrote of it as an example of "...war terrorism: the effort to kill civilians in such large numbers that their government is forced to surrender. Hiroshima seems to me the classic case."[20]
Mark Selden, a professor of sociology and history at Binghamton University and professorial associate in the East Asia Program at Cornell University, author of “War and State Terrorism: The United States, Japan, and the Asia-Pacific in the Long Twentieth Century (War and Peace Library),” writes, "This deployment of air power against civilians would become the centerpiece of all subsequent U.S. wars, a practice in direct contravention of the Geneva principles, and cumulatively 'the single most important example of the use of terror in twentieth century warfare."[16] He also wrote, "Impressing Russia was more important than ending the war in Japan."
Selden writes: “Over the next half century, the United States would destroy with impunity cities and rural populations throughout Asia, beginning in Japan and continuing in North Korea, Indochina, Iraq and Afghanistan, to mention only the most heavily bombed nations...if nuclear weapons defined important elements of the global balance of terror centered on U.S.-Soviet conflict, "conventional" bomb attacks defined the trajectory of the subsequent half century of warfare." (Selden, War and State Terrorism).
Heads of State have also repeated the claim. President of Venezuela, Hugo Chavez paid tribute to the victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, calling the dropping of the A-bomb, "the greatest act of terrorism in recorded history." [17]
Richard Falk, professor Emeritus of International Law and Practice at Princeton University has written in some detail about Hiroshima and Nagasaki as instances of state terrorism. He states that “The graveyards of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are the number-one exhibits of state terrorism.” Falk discusses the public justifications for the attacks, as follows:
“ | Undoubtedly the most extreme and permanently traumatizing instance of state terrorism, perhaps in the history of warfare, involved the use of atomic bombs against the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in military settings in which the explicit function of the attacks was to terrorize the population through mass slaughter and to confront its leaders with the prospect of national annihilation....the public justification for the attacks given by the U.S. government then and now was mainly to save lives that might otherwise might have been lost in a military campaign to conquer and occupy the Japanese home islands which was alleged as necessary to attain the war time goal of unconditional surrender..."But even accepting the rationale for the atomic attacks at face value, which means discounting both the geopolitical motivations and the pressures to show that the immense investment of the Manhatten Project had struck pay dirt, and disregarding the Japanese efforts to arrange their surrender prior to the attacks, the idea that massive death can be deliberately inflicted on a helpless civilian population as a tactic of war certainly qualifies as state terror of unprecedented magnitude, particularly as the United States stood on the edge of victory, which might well have been consummated by diplomacy. As Michael Walzer putis it, the United States owed the Japanese people "an experiment in negotiation," but even if such an intiative had failed there was no foundation in law or morality for atomic attacks on civilian targets (Falk, State Terrrorism versus Humanitarian Law in War and State Terrorism). | ” |
These claims have prompted historian Robert Newman, a supporter of the bombings, to argue that the practice of terrorism is justified in some cases.[21]
In general, looks like an important issue for this article. They involve the first non-experimental use of weapons of mass destruction. That's a significant landmark in state terror. Also, deliberate military attack against a civilian target is, or should be, such an important topic for this article, since their death tolls and destruction to property compared to say, the death toll of the terrorist attack that most Americans are most used to thinking about, Sept 11., are orders of magnitude larger. --NYCJosh 19:10, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
- Did you forget mustard gas in WWI? Small pox attacks against Native Americans? Second, the use of WMD is not State Terrorism. Nor is civilian death toll relevant in assessing whether it was state terrorism. --Tbeatty 20:06, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
- How about you stay on topic, and cut down on the distractions? Save this for other sections for the article. Lets keep this threat about the above.Giovanni33 23:47, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
- It's generally a good idea to try to keep the level of truth in a given thread higher, rather than insisting corrections are tangential. To correct somebody's incorrect (and relevant) claim is not in itself irrelevant, although it may not be productive. It's hardly anything that needs a snarky reply, however. (and I'll assume you meant 'thread' not 'threat') 69.143.136.139 02:06, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- How about you stay on topic, and cut down on the distractions? Save this for other sections for the article. Lets keep this threat about the above.Giovanni33 23:47, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
- No I have not forgotten. Why, would you like to add those to the article? The use of WMD and the death toll alone do NOT render it terrorism, and that is not what I was suggesting. However, given that the major authorities cited DO appear to view it as such, these additional factors make this example particularly monumental and noteworthy for WP.--NYCJosh 21:18, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
- Josh, you seem to have missed the point of Tbeatty's point. The user is simply stating that the claim of the nuclear weapons use in Japan were the first use of WMD/NBCs is incorrect. One could say that the first uses were in WWI, but it's easy enough to go further back as the other user mentioned, and discuss the use of smallpox in conflict with Native Americans. However, we can go even further back and cite the Mongols and early siege weaponry. Going further back, greek fire was used to destroy large groups of structures and soft targets. At any rate, finding the "first use of WMD" is probably going to be a fruitless exercise. At least, it's not likely to produce anything that's conclusive. 69.143.136.139 02:06, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Here is the proper citation to use for the Bard memorandum (one of the objections rasied for the blanking):
- Michael B. Stoff et al., ed. (1991). "Memorandum on the use of the S-1 Bomb, from Ralph A. Bard Undersecertary of the Navy, to Henry Stimson Secretary of War, June 27, 1945". The Manhattan Project: a documentary introduction to the Atomic Age. Cited by www.nuclearfiles.org. Temple University Press. pp. p. 162.
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(help). As stated above this section was added with consensus, so it should never have been taking out without getting a new consensus to do so. So its default state it is to keep it included, until valid objections are raised to remove it (or fix), and that because the new consenus. Please restore with added citations (this one and the above new ones offered). Proof that consensus was attained to include the material can be seen here [[18]] As you can see, ALL editors on both sides of the fence agreed for its inclusion, except the lone editor Tbetty, blanked it because didn't get his way, failed to provide good reasons not to include it (even those who share his poltical POV said this was ok to include). Unless there is a new consensu to remove, it should be restored. The other POV editors who later jumped in to blank it under the false and never explained pretext of (removed OR), were just acking like vandals to the article (see arguments above for this).Giovanni33 19:15, 23 July 2007 (UTC)|chapter=
- The "consensus" that Giovanni declares (which I personally dispute), is long gone(there are *FAR* more than 1 editor disagreeing). The Japan/WW II material is heavily disputed by multiple editors with different views and that was what prompted the edit war which Giovanni and many others participated in. Practically speaking, the talk page is a mess. This issue is being discussed in 4 or 5 places on the talk page, making it difficult to follow along and have a coherent conversation. The issue is also quite emotional among some editors as accusations of vandalism and bad faith are still flying.
- Once the emotions settle down, uncivil accusations cease, and a reasonable dialogue structure is in place, Im sure we'll reach a consensus version quite readily. Dman727 20:03, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
- If that previously obtained consensus for this material, which was added, is gone, then so be it. But, until there is consensus to remove it from the article, it can not be properly removed, since it was added with consensus (no matter if that is gone now). You need to obtain a new consensus to remove, which the editors blanking did not have.Giovanni33 23:49, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
- I readily agree with DMan that this talk page is a mess. It might facilitate deliberation if instead of having one talk page in which discussions more than a few days old get buried and few editors have any detailed memory of months and months of archived talk (the same old arguments are re-hashed over and over and over again), the talk page was organized by topic. Each section of the article could have its own "talk page." I am being vague on details because I don't know if this is feasible. --NYCJosh 22:04, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
There is no evidence that this is anything other than a fringe view and as such has no place in this article. --Tbeatty 20:06, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
- Au contraire, Professor Richard Falk (professor Emeritus of International Law and Practice at Princeton) is one of the luminaries in his field. Check out his cv (just google him or visit the Pinceton website) if you are skeptical. It is difficult to name anyone currently alive in the academy who is more prominent in his field. His view alone renders it non-fringe. When you add the others, it might be fair to say theirs is a dominant view on the issue.--NYCJosh 21:24, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
- Falk, a "luminary"? If contributing with 9/11 conspiracy theories isn't enough, he has even openly accused Israel of genocide. Radical, left wing idealogues such as him and Ganser are about as luminary as a candle on a windy day.--Beguiled 22:27, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
- As dim as that Newton fellow looking for secret messages in the bible and trying to transmute stuff into gold. Now that we have discounted gravity, what will we do? Where is that "ad hominem" macro I had? --SevenOfDiamonds 23:44, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
- Your reasoning is not valid. Just because you disagree with their views, does diminish their undisputed global stature in their respective academic fields. When you add his name to all the other luminaries who support the same view, your claim is rendered completely refuted to the point of being absurd. Next?Giovanni33 23:43, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
- Falk, a "luminary"? If contributing with 9/11 conspiracy theories isn't enough, he has even openly accused Israel of genocide. Radical, left wing idealogues such as him and Ganser are about as luminary as a candle on a windy day.--Beguiled 22:27, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
- I think it's pretty clear from the sources that this is not a fringe view. .V. [Talk|Email] 20:56, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
The contribution presented above is impeccably sourced, from major sources. The ball is now in the court of those who object to it, to present relevant sources opposing these views. That is the nature of compromise and consensus, rather than deletion that constitutes both vandalism and censorship.BernardL 00:02, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, the Japan section is well-sourced and fitting for this Wiki article. However, I think the article could use some slight improvements on readability and syntax. For example, part of it is in the present tense and the rest in the past tense. FightCancer 11:39, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
- I made a few edits. The only text I removed was punctuation: a few quotation marks, commas, etc. I also grouped the Zinn quotes together and the same with the Selden quotes. This way we don't have to keep announcing Selden's title and rank every time we refer to him throughout the section. FightCancer 12:09, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Its getting close to a week now and it seems consensus is once more clear for inclusion of this material. Like last time no valid objection for inclusion has been made. In fact, I propose we do the following: each time a spurious objection is raised such as the false cry of "OR!" or "Fringe!" we simply expand the article with more sources. So each time they raise that it wil lhave the effect of increasing the sources and section, reporting on this rather significant and notable POV. I think that should serve as a proper disincentive since their real objection is "I don't like what they say, and I dont want anyone else to read it!."Giovanni33 22:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
- It seems that the edit-warriors who want it included has disengaged from the article. I would appear as though there is now a consensus to not include the WW II ending in the article. On the other hand, if those who want it included, I would suggest that they get started building a consensus. Dman727 00:19, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- I don't know what your talking about, unless your talking about the vandals who blanked it repeatedly (you included). Consensus was clearly established to include this. Now we are showign that its STILL consensus to include for I see no sustained objections to not include it back (yourelf included). However, the ball is on the side of those who want it removed since we already had consenus to include. In order to keep it out, consenus has to be obtained to keep it out. Not only is that completely lacking, consensus is still clearly to keep it. So, again, I have no idea what you are talking about. Can we come back to reality here?Giovanni33 00:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- If there was a consensus, its long gone. I'll also remind you of WP:CIVIL and I've removed your incivil accusations. Your constant incivility is a big barrier to consensus.Dman727 00:31, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- You are still missing the point. Since consensus was obtained, then the material belongs in the article until there is consensus to take it our (or make major changes). Since YOU have no consensus to do that, the section, by default, belongs back in the article. There is nothing more incivil than blanking well sourced material over and over, and failing to provide any valid reason for doing so--and doing this against consensus. So unless you apologize for that major vandalism inflicted by yourself and a group of others, and promise to reform yourself on this matter, its a bit of a stretch to talk about being civil. I suggest, in the very least, that you acknowledge the points that has been made many times: it was added with consensus, there is no consensus to remove. On top of that, there are still no valid objections to substanciate its removal against consensus in the first place--even now. Unless you have an argument to make about these points, your posting here are of little productive value. Again, it been alsmost a week and none of those who have blanked this well sourced section have dared to show their faces here to justify what they did. I ask again, and I'll keep asking, "Where is the alleged OR" that they claimed as the basis for the blanking? Not a peep from these people. Obviously, they lied. It reminds me of the Bush claiming WMD's. Where are they? Oh, it was a lie. Conensus remains unchanged. This section must be restored.Giovanni33 00:56, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- There is certainly no consensus now. You, along with others want it included. I along with others disagree. There is no valid reasons to include the fringe material. I acknowledge your points and fully disagree with them. I will however leave your attacks in place as your request. If you want to discuss George Bush, I suggest you go to that article. Unless you have an argument to make about these points, your posting here are of little productive value.Dman727 01:08, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- You are still missing the point. Since consensus was obtained, then the material belongs in the article until there is consensus to take it our (or make major changes). Since YOU have no consensus to do that, the section, by default, belongs back in the article. There is nothing more incivil than blanking well sourced material over and over, and failing to provide any valid reason for doing so--and doing this against consensus. So unless you apologize for that major vandalism inflicted by yourself and a group of others, and promise to reform yourself on this matter, its a bit of a stretch to talk about being civil. I suggest, in the very least, that you acknowledge the points that has been made many times: it was added with consensus, there is no consensus to remove. On top of that, there are still no valid objections to substanciate its removal against consensus in the first place--even now. Unless you have an argument to make about these points, your posting here are of little productive value. Again, it been alsmost a week and none of those who have blanked this well sourced section have dared to show their faces here to justify what they did. I ask again, and I'll keep asking, "Where is the alleged OR" that they claimed as the basis for the blanking? Not a peep from these people. Obviously, they lied. It reminds me of the Bush claiming WMD's. Where are they? Oh, it was a lie. Conensus remains unchanged. This section must be restored.Giovanni33 00:56, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- If there was a consensus, its long gone. I'll also remind you of WP:CIVIL and I've removed your incivil accusations. Your constant incivility is a big barrier to consensus.Dman727 00:31, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- I don't know what your talking about, unless your talking about the vandals who blanked it repeatedly (you included). Consensus was clearly established to include this. Now we are showign that its STILL consensus to include for I see no sustained objections to not include it back (yourelf included). However, the ball is on the side of those who want it removed since we already had consenus to include. In order to keep it out, consenus has to be obtained to keep it out. Not only is that completely lacking, consensus is still clearly to keep it. So, again, I have no idea what you are talking about. Can we come back to reality here?Giovanni33 00:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- There are several dissenting opinions, including mine. For one it is completely one sided. If included, then the usual defences for the bombings must be mentioned, such as the alternative cost if continuing the war.Ultramarine 22:46, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
- No, its not completely one sided. I present the consensus view among academics, and also the public justiications for the bombing (the public justification for the attacks given by the U.S. government then and now was mainly to save lives that might otherwise might have been lost in a military campaign to conquer and occupy the Japanese home islands which was alleged as necessary to attain the war time goal of unconditional surrender) That pov is touched on sufficiently. This article and section is about the claims that the act constituted an act of State Terrorism. Its not about the pro/cons for dropping or not dropping the bomb. That belongs on the main article, where it links to. In light of the actual topic I also present an academic who supports the bombing arguing that terrorism is sometimes justified (since he is talkign about the claim of terrorism (the subject of this section) I include it. Other stuff goes in the main article. Giovanni33 23:31, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
- Agree with Ultrmarine, clearly there are numerous dissenting opinions. I WOULD like to see a consensus form on the material. Without a clear consensus (and not a consensus declared by one editor), it is likely that edit wars will continue and article locks will continue. A real, true consensus will not have this problem. Dman727 01:16, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- If you want to add more disenting opinions that this was not an act of state terror, then by all means propose them. I do not object to doing so. But, it must be on topic. This is about the claims of this being an act of state terrorism. This is not a pro/con debate about dropping or not dropping the bomb. I have already included the disenting opinion, the public justications, and the consensus view. If you want to increase the disenting view, then please offer what you want it in (but make sure its on topic: the claim of state terrorism). And, btw, there already was consensus, which has already been pointed out to you (don't lie and say its one editor!). I'll point out the section for you again that proves this point: [[19]] As you can see, ALL editors on both sides of the fence agreed for its inclusion, except Tbetty, who didn't provide any good reasons. This section was the end product of all these editors working together, tailored to the various conditions they requested for its addition. In all over 17 editors approved directly or indirectly. However, if you have a new consensus to make changes, then I'm happy about that, and look at your proposed changes. But, make no mistake about, consensus for the section above was already obtained. The more you deny this, the more you deny reality that I'll keep pointing out.Giovanni33 01:21, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- There is no CURRENT consensus for inclusion or removal. Feel free to make all the claims you wish about the past though. Dman727 01:43, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- Since consensus was already obtained for the version above, it requires a new consensus to change it. I agree there is no conensus to remove it, so that can't be done.Giovanni33 06:57, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
It appears that rather than calling this a consensus issue it would be more productive to refer to it as a point of view issue, while the section clearly indicates a consensus of historians that Nagasaki was not needed to end the war, it is clearly a point of view that nothing that looks bad for the United States or people who are living or have died recently be included. That however is not even a point of view, it is gratuitous censorship. 199.125.109.55 17:23, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
The issue at hand remains
It seems to me that, regarding the current division of opinion as expressed on the talk page, at least those who are for the inclusion of the material have a position of compromise to offer. We could allow a relevant, adequately sourced criticism of the Hiroshima/Nagasaki section. We could also include a sentence designating our material as a minority or controversial viewpoint- even though this is redundant, since it has already done in the main introduction.
On the other hand, for those who insist on deletion of the well-sourced material from university profs of global stature--no position of compromise is possible, with them. They screem "OR" "Fringe," blank it, and run away. This is an irrational act. For them, the majority of regular editors, or at least a very significant portion, must simply be muzzled on this issue. It amounts to the censorship of significant minority viewpoints and wikipedia becomes all the poor for this loss of legitimate diversity. Also the real reason it is being forcefully vandalized is not because it's poor, but rather because it's too good, too well-referenced from major figures.
If it really is an issue with the sources then we can pour even more solid sources for this Hiroshima/Nagasaki claim. The literature on this articles subject is actually quite abundant and significant. Those editors who have blanked the material, which most editors here agreed to add, and did so through consensus, can't win the argument by WP policies, so they become desperate and must attack, by just blanking , but fail to explain themselves. The question is, will WP allow them to continue to silent significant minority viewpoints and editor such as myself who are fighting for such legitimate and important diversity of content, or will they be allowed to continue to supress and whitewash WP, turning away from being a global Encylopedia to one that suffers from systematic bias rooted in US nationalism? I have no doubt that it will be the former, and that this group will eventually face repurcusions if they continue along the same vein in this article. I ask again, where is the alleged OR that was used as the basis for blanking this section? Itsd been about a week, and not a peep for them about this point. So far, again, consensus is clear to restore this. If they have any valid argument at all for their blanking actions, let them present it.Giovanni33 01:19, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- Giovanni, there are a number of objections beyond OR. I havent made the OR objection personally, so I'll leave that discussion to those that made it. If you care to search through the dozens of pages of discussion, you'll see that I agreed to compromise and look for a way to include the material in a NPOV. Thats my objection - NPOV. It violates NPOV on the basis on undue weight. Simply the material presented is incredibly fringe and a minority viewpoint..along the lines of the 9/11 conspiracy buffs. To devote such a large amount of text to frank sillyness betrays the very premise of wiki.
- Finally, there is no consensus to restore the section as it. No matter how many times you shout "CONSENSUS","VANDALS" - It doesn't make it so. A consensus will be VERY obvious when it exists. Dman727 01:33, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
So offer a proactive compromise then! Refusing to work towards building a consensus is not accaptable eitherBernardL 01:55, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Consensus was already obtained, but I'm happy to listen to any substancial changes to the consesus version above, and if you have conensus to chagne it, then that would be fine. As I said before, please make a proposal. I understand you want to add more disenting opinions that this was not an act of state terror? As I said before, I do not object to doing so, provided its on topic. That is, responses to claims that this is an act of state terrorism. (This is not a pro/con debate about dropping or not dropping the bomb). I will note that the consensus version already does include the disenting opinion, the public justications, and the academic consensus view. If you want to increase the disenting view, then please offer what you want it in (but make sure its on topic: the claim of state terrorism). I'm sure that if you do that, you will have no problem obtaining consensus for the changes you want. But, please do not disrespect the consensus version above by denying it is the consensus version (and thus belongs in the article untill such time as a new consensus for changing it is obtained.)Giovanni33 02:14, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- We don't even have a consensus of whether we have a consensus, let alone the material. I am looking at the fringe material however to see what can be salvaged. Dman727 02:35, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- Facts don't go away because you deny them, so saying we dont have conensus about consensus is meaningless. Its fact. Conensus was clearly established, as I proved above in the link to the section. Again, ALL editors agreed across political spectrums, except Tbetty, who didn't give any valid objections. Everytime you deny this reality, I will repeat it. Now you allege that the material is fringe. That is refuted by the policy that provides guidlines for "fringe." That guide specifices that if one can easily find notable adherents to a pov, then its not fringes. That has been demontrated. See what I mean about evolving, chaning, objections? First its OR, then its Fringes, and then its NPOV, then its back to fringe again. All the way, the case is never presented to back up those lies. When are you going to do that instead of just lying? As far as "what can be salvaged"--that is the wrong question. Thats all well referenced material dealing directly with the issue at hand, so there is no option to delete it. The is just more blanking. You won't have conensus to blank. Now, if you want to add more relevante disenting opinion, then you might find consensus to do that (and I"m find with that too).Giovanni33 04:51, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- "lying"?? my my. See my response above. I'll wait till you calm down before engaging with you again. Dman727 04:57, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, those claims are lies. If they are not, then please, please, please, make the case the proves its not a lie. Until then, the material is so obviously not OR, no obviously not Fringe, that to claim otherwise, is to say a bold face lie. Of course, you wont actually make the case, to support that lie, because, well, then you would prove it had a legitimate basis, and was therefore not a lie. But, alas, I'm proven right. Thereofre, consensus, is once again--even now--still to include the material. This is because objections such as yours, hollow, shallow, absurd, and without support, can just be dismissed as a lie.Giovanni33 05:42, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- Screaming lies, vandals, and consensus doesn't make it so as we've seen. There is no compromise on policy. The material is so obviously fringe original research that even the dullest among us would recognize it but I am not going to call you a liar for not seeing it. --Tbeatty 05:53, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- Is this the best that those editors acting like vandals, blanking sourced material added by consensus can do? Calling it, over and over again, "fringe," and "original research" in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, and with no case made to support such absurd lies? I guess so. Because that is all you are doing. You can't call me a liar because the sources speak for themselves. They stand as proof that when you claim this material as OR or Fringe, you are speaking lies. And since all you do is repeat that hollow and false claim, over and over, with NO argument to back it up, then, we can dissmiss your objection as invalid, and thus, consensus--even now--remains clear: There remains no valid objection yet presented to overturn the consensus that this section has.Giovanni33 06:05, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- I guess you just don't see it. --Tbeatty 06:12, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- That is right, I don't. One can not see what is not there, unless they have delusions and hallucinations, but that doesn't count either in the real world. Your objections thus remain empty and false claims, and if repeated after they are shown to be such, are obvious lies. Shameful conduct, I must say, but then I understand you have nothing to go on so such desperation is to be expected. But, as I say, its easily dismissed. When you can actually substanciate your aburd claims to blank this material, then come back and present them. Maybe you will gain some consensus to make changes to the material. Until now consenus remains clear no matter how much you can't see it.Giovanni33 06:20, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- I guess you just don't see it. --Tbeatty 06:12, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- Is this the best that those editors acting like vandals, blanking sourced material added by consensus can do? Calling it, over and over again, "fringe," and "original research" in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, and with no case made to support such absurd lies? I guess so. Because that is all you are doing. You can't call me a liar because the sources speak for themselves. They stand as proof that when you claim this material as OR or Fringe, you are speaking lies. And since all you do is repeat that hollow and false claim, over and over, with NO argument to back it up, then, we can dissmiss your objection as invalid, and thus, consensus--even now--remains clear: There remains no valid objection yet presented to overturn the consensus that this section has.Giovanni33 06:05, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- Screaming lies, vandals, and consensus doesn't make it so as we've seen. There is no compromise on policy. The material is so obviously fringe original research that even the dullest among us would recognize it but I am not going to call you a liar for not seeing it. --Tbeatty 05:53, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, those claims are lies. If they are not, then please, please, please, make the case the proves its not a lie. Until then, the material is so obviously not OR, no obviously not Fringe, that to claim otherwise, is to say a bold face lie. Of course, you wont actually make the case, to support that lie, because, well, then you would prove it had a legitimate basis, and was therefore not a lie. But, alas, I'm proven right. Thereofre, consensus, is once again--even now--still to include the material. This is because objections such as yours, hollow, shallow, absurd, and without support, can just be dismissed as a lie.Giovanni33 05:42, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- "lying"?? my my. See my response above. I'll wait till you calm down before engaging with you again. Dman727 04:57, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- Facts don't go away because you deny them, so saying we dont have conensus about consensus is meaningless. Its fact. Conensus was clearly established, as I proved above in the link to the section. Again, ALL editors agreed across political spectrums, except Tbetty, who didn't give any valid objections. Everytime you deny this reality, I will repeat it. Now you allege that the material is fringe. That is refuted by the policy that provides guidlines for "fringe." That guide specifices that if one can easily find notable adherents to a pov, then its not fringes. That has been demontrated. See what I mean about evolving, chaning, objections? First its OR, then its Fringes, and then its NPOV, then its back to fringe again. All the way, the case is never presented to back up those lies. When are you going to do that instead of just lying? As far as "what can be salvaged"--that is the wrong question. Thats all well referenced material dealing directly with the issue at hand, so there is no option to delete it. The is just more blanking. You won't have conensus to blank. Now, if you want to add more relevante disenting opinion, then you might find consensus to do that (and I"m find with that too).Giovanni33 04:51, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
The only consensus we have is to include the section. You can't claim a consensus to remove it based on IDONTLIKEIT. You need to have a valid reason. OR is definately not valid as even a cursory glance at sources will reveal and the number and quality of sources trumps any claim of it being a "fringe" Theory. Move on and work on improving the section instead of wasting everyones time trying to get it deleted without reason. Wayne 06:26, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- We have no consensus to include the section. You can't claim consensus to add it based on WP:ILIKEIT. You need to have reliable sources with notable viewpoints. Original Research is never valid and fringe theories violate undue weight. Move on and work on improving the encyclopedia instead of wasting everyones time trying to add material without reason. --Tbeatty 06:46, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- Based on that false comment, a second time, I'll now expand the section even more with even more sources. Thanks, Tbeatty. Glad you just gave the ok to do so. Keep it up, and it will get even bigger, and be its own featured article all thanks to you.Giovanni33 06:55, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- Giovannni might be operating under the unfounded assumption that some kind of consensus or deal now will forever end the matter. As long as this section on JP is, I would favor including much of the material when the article is updated, at least in footnotes. Otherwise it will be mercilessly attacked by current and future editors based on the same objections.
- Also, in addition to this, I would be in favor of a stand-alone article that could include even more.--NYCJosh 15:48, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- It already has it's own main article. Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki is the main article. And please, no content forks. --Tbeatty 16:25, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- No, that is the main article. We can have an article just about this issue, if there is enough information to present. I'm willing to keep it a very breif section-as we have--but if you keep insisting its OR, or Fringe, then I'll expand the section and create its own article for it.Giovanni33 19:56, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- It already has it's own main article. Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki is the main article. And please, no content forks. --Tbeatty 16:25, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Keeping my word--more sources for the Japan section
True to my word, everytime they continue to claim its "OR," or "Fringe" the consequence of making that false claim will be to expand the article with more sources. And, I'm sure we will get consensus to add more refrenced material to this section. So, if you don't like it, I suggest you allow this rather modest version to exist un vandalized. But, if you insist on blanking it with such absurdly false claims, then the consequence will only be to make it bigger, larger, with more sources. If you keep it up, it will be the largest section in the article, or even have its own article! The choice is yours but don't say I didn't tell you so. Now since you already started repeating those claims above (no argument to support it btw), here is my first presentation of more sources for all editor to comb threw, and find the best gems to add to the already approved per consenus, material above. Depending on how many times they repeat "OR,' or "fringe" will determine how much of to add to the article. Here are just some additional sources to start looking through...but there is a lot more. Know that I'm not lying when I said this will be the result of your continuing to claim "OR,' or "fringe." Blank the material again, and it will only grow bigger, and with more international sources (a lot to draw from). So here is the begining of that process, which I have hardly even begun yet (and not even started my research into printed materials in the many libraries I have full access too).
Japanfocus.com for many critical essays from notable authors. This is a peer reviewed acadmic journal. I havn't yet gone through it but I'm sure there's a lot of stuff we can use from it. [20]
Just glancing at one of the many critical papers to be found there, I noted this one by Prof. Mark Seldon, entitled: A Forgotten Holocaust: US Bombing Strategy, the Destruction of Japanese Cities and the American Way of War from the Pacific War to Iraq [*] Mark Selden[21] I think this point he makes about one of its after effect, its ramifications is worth mentioning:
"The targeting for destruction of entire populations, whether indigenous peoples, religious infidels, or others deemed inferior or evil, may be as old as human history, but the forms it takes are as new as the latest technologies of destruction and strategic innovation, of which air power, firebombing and nuclear weapons are particularly notable. [37] The most important way in which World War II shaped the moral and technological tenor of mass destruction was the erosion in the course of war of the stigma associated with the systematic targeting of civilian populations from the air, and elimination of the constraints, which for some years had restrained certain air powers from area bombing. What was new was both the scale of killing made possible by the new technologies and the routinization of mass killing or state terrorism. If area bombing remained controversial throughout much of World War II, something to be concealed or denied by its practitioners, by the end of the conflagration it would become the acknowledged centerpiece of war making, emblematic above all of the American way of war even as the nature of the targets and the weapons were transformed by new technologies and confronted new forms of resistance. Indeed, for six decades the US (and those fighting under its umbrella) has been virtually alone in fighting wars and police actions notable for their reliance on airpower in general and the deliberate targeting for destruction of civilians, and the infrastructure that makes possible their survival, in particular. Certainly in this epoch no others have bombed on a scale approaching that of the US. The US would conceal the deliberate annihilation of noncombatants with the figleaf that Sahr Conway-Lanz describes as the myth of collateral damage, that is the claim, however systematic the bombing, that the intent was elimination of military targets, not the slaughter of noncombatants."
ACHIN VANAIK-Professor of International Relations and Global Politics (South Campus) at the Political Science Department of Delhi University [22]
Gunnar Garbo-Former Norwegian Ambassador to Tanzania (who references Mark Selden’s work) [23]
Joseph Gerson - Director of Programs and Director of the Peace and Economic Security Program for the American Friends and Services Committee.[24]
Walden Bello executive director of Focus on the Global South, professor of sociology and public administration at the University of the Philippines [25]
Prof. Jose Maria Sison, University of Philippines [26]
Michael Stohl- Professor and Chair, Department of Communication University of California, Santa Barbara. His book “The Politics of Terrorism” is in its 3rd edition. “In addition to the covert use of terror by governments outside their own borders, there is the overt employment of terror to coerce other governments to capitulate or submit to the wishes of the dominant. Thomas Schelling (1966) refers to this use of terror as the “diplomacy of violence,” and Alexander George et al. (1971) label it coercive diplomacy…Consider the following passage by Schelling and its implications “These (the two atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki) were weapons of terror and shock. They hurt and promised more hurt, and that was their purpose. The few small weapons we had were undoubtedly of some direct military value, but their enormous advantage was in pure violence….” (Stohl- The Politics of Terrorism Marcel Dekker, Inc., New York and Basel, Third Edition, 19)
Brian Martin - Professor of Science, Technology and Society at the University of Wollongong. [27]
So, keep it up, and this section will only greatly expand. Or, admit defeat and accept a very modest, very brief version that I agreed to. That choice I leave to you, but be clear that you don't have the option of blanking any more. Attempts will prove futile and have the opposite of your intended effect. Read and weap.Giovanni33 06:52, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- Where do they say it was State Terrorism by the United States? This is a specific term of art not be confused or muddled with a generic term "terror". Fear and terror are created all the time in war but it doesn't make it State Terrorism. Also, they are "fringe" if they are going to argue that the ioverthrow of the Taliban in Afghanistan is a terrorist act. --Tbeatty 13:46, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- Can any sources be cited to show these are "fringe" views? On what basis is it designated as fringe?--NYCJosh 15:22, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- Oh oh, he said the word Fringe, again. Empty, false claim. Therefore, again, true to my word, here are yet more sources, which now will be added to the article. If he keeps this up, this will expand to its own article because it will get so big:
- Communal Politics: Facts Versus Myths By Ram Puniyani, Sage Publication Inc. Page 261 "This is terrorism of the mighty out to enslave the weak. This state terrorism kills the innocent non-combatants, like the ones in Hiroshima and Nagasaki ..."
- Implicating Empire: Globalization and Resistance in the 21st Century By Stanley Aronowitz, Basic Books. Page 92 "But the retaliatory attacks against Japan, rationalized by some, simply forgotten by others, is a useful example when one is trying to understand institutional terror." Just for the hawks: "One can say there are at least two forms of terrorism: organized and institutional (or state) terrorism."
- Terrorism and Justice: Moral Argument in a Threatened World By Michael P. O'Keefe, C. A. J. Coady, Melbourne University Press. Preface XV "Several of the contributors consider the issue of state terrorism and there is a general agreement that states not only can sponsor terrorism by non state groups but that states can, and do, directly engage in terrorism. Coady instances the terror bombings of World War II, including Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as acts of terrorism."
- Incoherent Empire By Michael Mann, Verso. Page 129 "Some bombing clear is state terrorism. That is the correct term for the Allied fire-boming of Dresden or Tokyo and, more arguably, of Hiroshima and Nagasaki"
- To quote another editors question, which you ignored: "How much needs to be produced before we stop calling this OR or a fringe view? Do we have a number in mind? This way I can ask the people over at WP:RS and WP:V if it is normal to have to produced X sources, where X is the number you provide." And, yes, if you keep it up it can have its own article as its about this particular claim that it was state terrorism, which we can expore in great detail. Is that what you want?Giovanni33 18:22, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- More sources does not make the POV problems disappear. See WP:SOAP. If included, the common opposing views for why the bombing was necessary should be included, as well as mention of the relevant laws of war at the time which had no prohibition against such bombings. Another point it there is still no resolution to very old problems like the intro, see the section below, which should be resolved first before taking on new issues.Ultramarine 18:28, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- Bombing necessary? Now that would be the real fringe view. But, you seem to get off topic, again. The issue about droppoing or not droppong the bomb is not one that this section gets into in any detail. That is left for the main article. In this section, I present the consensus view among academics, and also the public justiications for the bombing (the public justification for the attacks given by the U.S. government then and now was mainly to save lives that might otherwise might have been lost in a military campaign to conquer and occupy the Japanese home islands which was alleged as necessary to attain the war time goal of unconditional surrender) That pov is touched on sufficiently. This article and section is about the claims that the act constituted an act of State Terrorism. Its not about the pro/cons for dropping or not dropping the bomb. That belongs on the main article, where it links to. In light of the actual topic I also present an academic who supports the bombing arguing that terrorism is sometimes justified (since he is talkign about the claim of terrorism (the subject of this section) I include it. Other stuff goes in the main article. If you want to add more from the an opposing view that talks about the claims that this is state terrorism, not NOT state terrorism, then I welcome that. But its currently balanced as it presents all view, but with a focus on this particular POV, which is the subject of this article and section.Giovanni33 18:46, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- More sources does not make the POV problems disappear. See WP:SOAP. If included, the common opposing views for why the bombing was necessary should be included, as well as mention of the relevant laws of war at the time which had no prohibition against such bombings. Another point it there is still no resolution to very old problems like the intro, see the section below, which should be resolved first before taking on new issues.Ultramarine 18:28, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- To quote another editors question, which you ignored: "How much needs to be produced before we stop calling this OR or a fringe view? Do we have a number in mind? This way I can ask the people over at WP:RS and WP:V if it is normal to have to produced X sources, where X is the number you provide." And, yes, if you keep it up it can have its own article as its about this particular claim that it was state terrorism, which we can expore in great detail. Is that what you want?Giovanni33 18:22, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
<-- No one knows the consensus among academics unless you present a survey. See WP:SOAP, only presenting or giving undue weight to arguments from one side is not allowed. In addition to the already mentioned problem, there is also the language. Critics "allege", supportes "write", and so on. But we should solve the old problems like the intro before tackling new. See the section below.Ultramarine 18:54, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- We can cite reliable academics in the field (historian) who state what the consesus view is, which is what I've done. And, you seem to be applying the undo weight standard for main articles. This is an ancillary aricle that deals specifically with this POV, so there is no undue weight issues here. As long as the consensus view is presented, and a statement is made regarding the status and nature of this view, we are then allowed to explore this view and present it in great depth (that is the whole point of it!). This is NOT a section for giving equal weight to all POV's in porportion to academia. That standard is only for the main article; this ancilary section on an ancillary article deals with a specific minority pov: that it was state terrorism. I hope this now is clear to you because I've said it at least three times and you are ignoring it.Giovanni33 19:32, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- I guess you refer to a claim that there is consensus for a statement among historians that "the Nagasaki bomb was gratuitous at best and genocidal at worst." Does not mention terrorism or state terrorism so should be removed as OR according to your own argumentation. Please answer the long standing issue with the introduction before starting new controversies.Ultramarine 20:25, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, that is the consensu view according to the respectable historian that its attributed to. My review of the literature confirms this as accurate. Do you dispute that claim of consensus with another source? I find it accurate, and its not OR since its attributed properly to a realible source. Historians today to not beleive that the bomb is necessary, and only a very minority justify its use. The consensus is as I stated it, which is attributed to the two historians that I attribute the statement to, in the text. As long as I do that, and not not represent this pov (state terrorism claim) falsely as consensus or a majority view, then there is no undue weight issue here, as this is about presenting this POV in depth, which includes disenting POV's about this question. I'll deal with the other issues you have about the article when we get this issue resolved.Giovanni33 20:43, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- You were just stating that this article only should deal with state terrorism which this material does not mention. You can not have it both ways. The introduction issue was raised first and should be dealt with before new conroversies.Ultramarine 20:45, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, that is the consensu view according to the respectable historian that its attributed to. My review of the literature confirms this as accurate. Do you dispute that claim of consensus with another source? I find it accurate, and its not OR since its attributed properly to a realible source. Historians today to not beleive that the bomb is necessary, and only a very minority justify its use. The consensus is as I stated it, which is attributed to the two historians that I attribute the statement to, in the text. As long as I do that, and not not represent this pov (state terrorism claim) falsely as consensus or a majority view, then there is no undue weight issue here, as this is about presenting this POV in depth, which includes disenting POV's about this question. I'll deal with the other issues you have about the article when we get this issue resolved.Giovanni33 20:43, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- I guess you refer to a claim that there is consensus for a statement among historians that "the Nagasaki bomb was gratuitous at best and genocidal at worst." Does not mention terrorism or state terrorism so should be removed as OR according to your own argumentation. Please answer the long standing issue with the introduction before starting new controversies.Ultramarine 20:25, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
<-- Again, as is standard with ancillary articles that present minority theories or pov's, one needs to mention the conensus view on the matter first. That is what I do. That is why its included. Its mentioned but does not explore that, either. That is for the main article to do, and that is proper. The idea is not to present this minority view-- which this section is about and is suppoed to go in great detail about--as the majority view, or consenus view. The reason why its important to state that, framed properly, is because in sections and articles such as this, the POV it explores gets all the space (both con and pro). Other Pov's such as questions about the bombs use, other options, etc, are not dealt with here (main article content, or other articles). Here the issue is state terrorism. So, yes, other than presenting the consensus view and and framing the exploration of this POV properly, we do not enterain the other issues here. This is not a double standard its the proper standard per WP policies for ancillary articles. I'm not sure why this point has to be repeated so many times.Giovanni33 20:51, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- You have not presented any evidence regarding consensus for state terrorism or terrorism, your source does not mention this. Again, solve the introduction issue before starting new controversies.Ultramarine 20:54, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- No, I have not since that is NOT the consensus point of view, and I never said it was. I have not been clear? I've only made the above point about 5 times now. I can only guess that you are not bothering to read my responses, which is why you are raing this red herring. And, until this issue is solved, nothign else will be. Solve this first, and be serious.Giovanni33 21:20, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- Since this statement does not mention state terrorism or terrorism it should be removed. You just above argued that this article only deals with state terrorism and not other aspects of the bombing. I quote "this ancilary section on an ancillary article deals with a specific minority pov: that it was state terrorism." But again, we should solve old issues before starting new, see the section on the introduction below.Ultramarine 21:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, but you leave out that other part that explains why the conensus view must be stated, and the minority pov (what this section is about), must be framed a such. So, I'll just copy and past my same response above, which I'm guessing you just ignored, since it answers your question already. To repeat: "Again, as is standard with ancillary articles that present minority theories or pov's, one needs to mention the conensus view on the matter first. That is what I do. That is why its included. Its mentioned but does not explore that, either. That is for the main article to do, and that is proper. The idea is not to present this minority view-- which this section is about and is suppoed to go in great detail about--as the majority view, or consenus view. The reason why its important to state that, framed properly, is because in sections and articles such as this, the POV it explores gets all the space (both con and pro). Other Pov's such as questions about the bombs use, other options, etc, are not dealt with here (main article content, or other articles). Here the issue is state terrorism. So, yes, other than presenting the consensus view and and framing the exploration of this POV properly, we do not enterain the other issues here. This is not a double standard its the proper standard per WP policies for ancillary articles. I'm not sure why this point has to be repeated so many times."This is clear to me, so I don't know why you fail to grasp the concept. I don't think you are obtuse, so I'm guessing your just not being serious.Giovanni33 21:36, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- Since this statement does not mention state terrorism or terrorism it should be removed. You just above argued that this article only deals with state terrorism and not other aspects of the bombing. I quote "this ancilary section on an ancillary article deals with a specific minority pov: that it was state terrorism." But again, we should solve old issues before starting new, see the section on the introduction below.Ultramarine 21:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- No, I have not since that is NOT the consensus point of view, and I never said it was. I have not been clear? I've only made the above point about 5 times now. I can only guess that you are not bothering to read my responses, which is why you are raing this red herring. And, until this issue is solved, nothign else will be. Solve this first, and be serious.Giovanni33 21:20, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
<-- You keep refering to "WP policies for ancillary articles". Source please. Since your source does not mention terrorism or state terrorism is not relevant to this article as per your own arguments. Your claims regarding consensus is also dubious, the claim of a single historian does not establish truth. There are also consensus that continuing the war should have killed many, so it can equally be argued that this consensus should be included. Please respond to the introduction section below which should be resolved first since it was an earlier issue.Ultramarine 22:19, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, because you keep completely ignoring what policy says on the question. When I say the article must frame the minority POV properly and present the consenus POV, this does not negate the point that the section is still about the issue: state terrorism. The two go together. You seem to look at thins in either/or, white and black terms. Policy is NPOV and Undue Weight. These are basic policies that you shoudl have already read. Let me quote the policy for you: "Minority views can receive attention on pages specifically devoted to them—Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. But on such pages, though a view may be spelled out in great detail, it must make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint, and must not reflect an attempt to rewrite majority-view content strictly from the perspective of the minority view." The is why we have to state it as such, and state the conensus pov. "If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts; If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents; If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not. Views held only by a tiny minority of people should not be represented as significant minority views... If you are able to prove something that no one or few currently believe, Wikipedia is not the place to premiere such a proof. Once a proof has been presented and discussed elsewhere, however, it may be referenced. See: Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability."Since I've arleady explained this several times, and this is rather basic stuff, for you to pretend you still do not understand, and keep repeating a red herring, I will assume that you are only trolling now.Giovanni33 01:00, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- NPOV and Undue Weight states nothing regarding that "ancillary articles" should only present a consensus view from some main article. Your claims regarding consensus is also dubious, the claim of a single historian does not establish truth. There are also consensus that continuing the war should have killed many, so it can equally be argued that this consensus should be included. Please respond to the introduction section below which should be resolved first since it was an earlier issue.Ultramarine 01:17, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- I guess you have problems reading. I even quoted it for you so you can see for yourself there it sasy "ancillary articles." Can't do better than that. As far as claim of true, no one has made any claim of truth. That is not what we do here in WP. You again raise a red herring. What I do, however, is report what a reliable source says that is consensus. Hence, the section states, "However, University of Chicago historian Bruce Cumings states there is a consensus among historians to Martin Sherwin's statement, that "the Nagasaki bomb was gratuitous at best and genocidal at worst."[12]. If you dispute that this statement of academic consensus is correct, then please cite a source that states what the conensus is, then. I will not respond to the introduction, so stop repeating yourself. One thing at a time, and this is the priority for me.Giovanni33 01:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- I have read it. Does not state that an "ancillary article" should violate NPOV. There are also "consensus" that continuing the war should have killed many, so it can equally be argued that this consensus should be included. But you have argued that this article deals with "state terrorism" and not with other aspects of the bombing. No double standard please, this includes this particular claim that does not mention state terrorism. Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary sources, so you have to cite many sources before claiming anything as scientific consensus. Regarding the intro, then you should make that you priority instead of creating new controversies.Ultramarine 01:36, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- I guess you have problems reading. I even quoted it for you so you can see for yourself there it sasy "ancillary articles." Can't do better than that. As far as claim of true, no one has made any claim of truth. That is not what we do here in WP. You again raise a red herring. What I do, however, is report what a reliable source says that is consensus. Hence, the section states, "However, University of Chicago historian Bruce Cumings states there is a consensus among historians to Martin Sherwin's statement, that "the Nagasaki bomb was gratuitous at best and genocidal at worst."[12]. If you dispute that this statement of academic consensus is correct, then please cite a source that states what the conensus is, then. I will not respond to the introduction, so stop repeating yourself. One thing at a time, and this is the priority for me.Giovanni33 01:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- NPOV and Undue Weight states nothing regarding that "ancillary articles" should only present a consensus view from some main article. Your claims regarding consensus is also dubious, the claim of a single historian does not establish truth. There are also consensus that continuing the war should have killed many, so it can equally be argued that this consensus should be included. Please respond to the introduction section below which should be resolved first since it was an earlier issue.Ultramarine 01:17, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
(indent). As usual, you are just going around in circles, pretending not to see or undestand the obvious. It does say ancillary article, and I've followed the guidlines for it. There are not many consensuses (this shows me you don't understand the use of the word, even). If you dispute the accuracy of the acadmic consensus view, which I have presented with proper souring and attribution, then please lets see your source that mentions what the academic consensus is among historians as to the issue. That is fine to include, briefly. (I've asked you many times already, but so far you've shown nothing). As to the other stuff, yes, it has to stay on topic of State terrorism. We do not reproduce the the other issue in this article. But we do look at all POV's about this issue (state terrorism)--aside from stating the academic consensus view and properly framing the issue (as explained by policy above).Giovanni33 01:53, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- It does not say that an ancillary article should violate NPOV and only present one particular view from a main article. Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary sources, so you have to cite many sources before claiming anything as scientific consensus in such a controversial area. Again the important issue is the introduction which should be resovled before new controversies.Ultramarine 01:56, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- There is no violation of NPOV. The consensus view is not the minority view, as I've explained. But its important to state what academics say is the consensus view, which I've done. if you dispute that, please show sources that say the consensus view is otherwise. Exploration of the minority view in great depth is exactly what this ancillary article is here for, and should stay on topic (providing both POV's for the issue). How many times must this be repeated?Giovanni33 02:00, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- A single source is not evidence for consensus in a controversial area. Even if it was, there are other consensus like that many would have died if the war continued. Double standard to include a claim you like from another article but exclude other things such as that many would have been killed if the war continued which is not disputed. But we really should finish old things before starting new, see the introduction section below.Ultramarine 02:07, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- I am not using a single source to show acadmic consensus I am using a reliable source who states what the academic consenus is on the bombings. Again, if you dispute that claim as not accurate, please show a short that states the consensus on dropping the bomb. Other issues and questions about how many people would have died, etc. are already detailed in the main article and are off topic. We do not get into other details such as number in this article. Its speculation, anyway, and the numbers range greatly.. We do not need to duplicate this debate here as its gets off topic. We only need to state the academic consenus view, and frame the issue, and then explore the topic (state terrorism claim).Giovanni33 02:14, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- A single source is not evidence for consensus in a controversial area. Even if it was, there are other consensus like that many would have died if the war continued. Double standard to include a claim you like from another article but exclude other things such as that many would have been killed if the war continued which is not disputed. But we really should finish old things before starting new, see the introduction section below.Ultramarine 02:07, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- There is no violation of NPOV. The consensus view is not the minority view, as I've explained. But its important to state what academics say is the consensus view, which I've done. if you dispute that, please show sources that say the consensus view is otherwise. Exploration of the minority view in great depth is exactly what this ancillary article is here for, and should stay on topic (providing both POV's for the issue). How many times must this be repeated?Giovanni33 02:00, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
<-- In science a single claim does not establish a consensus in a field, many studies are required before anything like that can be claimed. There are many sources given in the atomic bombings article showing that there is no consensus among scholars. As per NPOV such views must also be included, there is no very special exception for "ancillary articles" But again, finish earlier disputes first.Ultramarine 02:18, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- Simply repeating yourself is not productive. Your repetiion is also non-responsive, as well. As I said before, a single claim does not estab. consensus--no one has done this. Instead, I have simply reported from a relaible source what the source says is acadmic consensus. Big difference between these two concepts. Now, if you dispute the accuracy of this claim, then by all means, give us some reason to doubt it with another reliable source of equal authority to the source I have used to establish the claim. NPOV includes all views relevant to the topic. Off topic views do not count, and are not to be included. But all views about the claims of state terrorism, are fine. Including those who say state terrorsim was justifified (included). or those that say its not state terrorism, etc. That is NPOV. Bringing up other debates that are a rehash of the main article is off topic to this ancillary article and section.Giovanni33 02:25, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- A claim to consenus does not prove that it exists as a truth. You are arguing that it is a truth, allowing the exclusion of other views. But a single source is not enough for that. The sources in atomic bombings article shows the existence of opposing views. If we include you claim to consensus, then NPOV also requires the inclusion of the sourced opposing views.Ultramarine 02:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- How many times are we going to go around in circles? I already answered that point more than once. WP does not deal with truth. The standard is verifiablity. The reliable source states the conensus view. If you dispute the accuracy of that claim then you must show other claims to the contrary about that point in question. I'm still waiting and you have produced nothing. NPOV is maintained by attributive language and by including all relevant views about the subject (state terrorism). That has been included. If you have more to include, that is welcome. Just stay on topic.Giovanni33 02:34, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- There is no policy that an "ancillary article" (which this is not since it is not a subarticle of the atmoic bombing article) should only mention some views from a main article. NPOV requires the inclusion of all views. The atomic bombings article have verifiable sources showing opposing views. These views should also be mentioned for NPOV. But your article does not mention state terrorism or terrorism so there is no reason to include it here. Why are we not finishing earlier issues first, like the intro.Ultramarine 02:39, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- How many times are we going to go around in circles? I already answered that point more than once. WP does not deal with truth. The standard is verifiablity. The reliable source states the conensus view. If you dispute the accuracy of that claim then you must show other claims to the contrary about that point in question. I'm still waiting and you have produced nothing. NPOV is maintained by attributive language and by including all relevant views about the subject (state terrorism). That has been included. If you have more to include, that is welcome. Just stay on topic.Giovanni33 02:34, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- A claim to consenus does not prove that it exists as a truth. You are arguing that it is a truth, allowing the exclusion of other views. But a single source is not enough for that. The sources in atomic bombings article shows the existence of opposing views. If we include you claim to consensus, then NPOV also requires the inclusion of the sourced opposing views.Ultramarine 02:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
<-- ::Again, a red herring, and non responsive to the point. This subject (section) is ancilalry to the main article. It does not reproduce the issues (many) in the main article. It deals with one issue: the claims of State terrorism. All POV's about this are to be included. The academic consenus POV is to be included, which it is, as per the source I quote stating so. So your objections are off topic, again. I suggest if you still don't understand what I've been saying, you probabaly are not going to understand anytime soon, so no need to keep repeating yourself. Maybe take a break and read over my replies later with a fresh mind, or leave it to other editors. I feel this is quite easy to grasp and very clear, and I'm sorry that you seem not to understand it. Either that or you are trollign and playing games. I hope not.Giovanni33 02:44, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- YOu have not shown this is the consensus view. In fact, jsut the opposite. You have not answered any of the concers. Your views are not verifiable or reliable let alone truthful. We cannot prove the negative meaning the consensus is that it wasn't state terrorism. No source is going to refute such fringe allegations because they simply don't even warrant a response. This is not a mainstream view. It's simply pointless for professional peer-reviewed journals to address every crackpot theory put out by fringe elements and we shouldn't be giving them airtime in the encyclopedia. --Tbeatty 02:47, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Much to my surprise this has been a highly illuminating debate. I believe that the burden of proof currently lies with Ultramarine to show that among current historians, there is a consensus maintaining that not only Hiroshima but especially Nagasaki was a military necesssity. This in light of the fact that it is not only a veteran historian like Bruce Cumings who claims that "the consensus as given by a moderate and mainstream historian (J. Samuel Walker), is that the official story of Truman's decision to use the atomic bomb- that it was done to save American lives... is wrong. and The consensus also extends to the second bomb, the plutonium device detonated over Nagasaki. Martin Sherwin's 1975 book contains evidence that the Nagasaki bomb made a gratuitous contribution to the end of the war at best, and was genocidal at worst. Although Nagasaki does not draw the attention that Hiroshima does, it is fair to say that most historians agree with Sherwin.(Cumings, Bruce, "American Airpower and Nuclear Strategy in Northeast Asia since 1945, in "War and State Terrorism".) Not only is Ultramarine faced with that!- he is also obliged to refute the comments of another wikipedia editor, Strothra, who, unlike Ultramarine displays evidence of actually being knowledgeable about the subject. Strothra claimed that "Alperowitz, Frank, and Hasegawa are likely the three leading contemporary historians of this topic, however. Franks is far more conservative on the issue, of course he doesn't say that either of the bombs were necessary to defeat Japan - only that one was necessary to keep the Soviets out. No credible contemporary historian accepts that both bombs were justified and practically all acknowledge the fact that myth of necessity concerning massive troop losses if we invaded was created after the use of the bombs.Ultamarine keeps harping about the introduction as a "priority", and it seems little more than a desperate evasion. I certainly believe that there are problems with the wording of the current introduction yet nevertheless this page was blocked because of the Japan issue and not the introduction. The current introduction had a clear consensus at the time of its submission, even if some of us on both sides may disagree with it now.BernardL 19:42, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- A couple points (without take a side). Theres discussion about whether we have consensus for inclusion of the WW II material into this article about terrorism...and there is discussion about whether their is consensus AMONG historians whether the bombs were necessary, if they were unncessary, gratious, or outright terrorism. Its getting confusing following this thread as I think that some folks have mixed (unintentionally) the two consensus discussions.
- With that said, now I'll make my own point. I think its reasonable, with nearly 60 years of detailed research and discussion that some may feel the bombs were unnecessary. 60 years is probably plenty of enough time to second guess the decision that the US made within a month or so in the middle of the worst war that the world has suffered. However, if some contempory historians conclude that the bombings were unnecessary, that does not automatically elevate their conclusions to that of state terrorism...i.e. that which is unnecessary is not automatically state terrorism. Furthermore, contempory discussions and findings about whether the bombings were necessary is worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia and fortunately we have an article those inclusions at Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki. Back to the issue of consensus. We do not have a consensus for including the WW II material into this article. As to the question among consensus amongst historians of necessity, thats one that should take place at Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki. I haven't weighed in on the introduction, but it seems that if we have multiple editors disagreeing, then we do not have a current consensus and now would be an ideal time to hammer one out (while the article is locked). Dman727 20:15, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- There is no question about conensus for inclusion of the material. It was included with consensus. The issue now is there is no consensus to change it (yet). The issue seems to be what it include and what not to include in the section (the claims of OR and Fringe are not serious so they can just be ignored and dismissed, as those are just plain silly, "i dont like it" arguments). I agree with BernardL who put is very well: UltraMarine is disputing the claim of acadmic consensus on the question of the use of the bombs, as currently described. Therefore, in light of the evidence I provided to support the current text, the burden is on him to show that its wrong. That is, he must muster some heavy guns in the academic word who are equally authorities on the subject that clearly state the academic consensus is otherwise. He has failed to do this, thus far. If he does I'm sure there will be consensus to make changes accordingly. The other issue was what was relevant to include in this section. I argue that it must remain on topic: claims of state terrorism, or directly about the subject and context of state terrorism. As you point out the larger debates about the bomb are to be left for the main article. However, we must still frame this minority point of view accurately, per policy, and thus the academic consenus view should be stated. About your statement that just because "some historians conclude the bomb wasn't necessary, it doesnt automatically elevate their conclusion to that of state terrorism" is of course true. But, then again, no one has made that kind of silly leap in logic. No, we cite their views directly, as we have in the consensus version above. Otherwise, it would indeed be SYN or OR, and there is none of that in this section.Giovanni33 00:35, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Giovanni, you really need to read WP:CIVIL. Why is it that you cannot write one passage without some sort of attack? These continuous attacks will make building a consensus very difficult. Personally, I don't want to wait till the end of September to get this article unlocked, but your uncivil behavior, continuous attacks, extreme argumentativeness and refusal to work towards consensus will probably insure that it stays locked the entire term. I'm going to be out of town for a few days. Go ahead and get a last word in if you wish. In the meantime, have a good weekend. Dman727 00:59, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- WP:TE cites repeating yourself much like the Ultramarine tactic above, you should note that as well. --SevenOfDiamonds 06:03, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Can you point out where in my response to you there was an attack? I was only addressing the issues, clarifying them, and made no attacks that I can discern. Attacking a claim or argument is perfectly valid, though, esp. if its a reasonsed and logical refutation.Giovanni33 01:43, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Silly is not a WP:CIVIL term. This I feel this is quite easy to grasp and very clear, and I'm sorry that you seem not to understand it. Either that or you are trollign and playing games is not civil. Need more? --Tbeatty 04:01, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Perhaps you should stop playing games. You oppose things without ever stating why other then WP:XYZ. I asked above, noone answered, but to end this silly Undue Weight, Fringe game, how many sources need to be presented, over 10 have been so far. I need a number given so I can bring it to relevant forums, WP:RS and WP:V to get some answers. Thank you. --SevenOfDiamonds 05:44, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- There is no number. It's quite simple. The sources must not be fringe. They should be a significant view. The should support the claim being made. 10 have not been presented that meet those requirements. Zero have been presented. --Tbeatty 05:52, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Can you please highlite your issues with the sources presented so far, source by source. Thank you. --SevenOfDiamonds 06:05, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- There is no number. It's quite simple. The sources must not be fringe. They should be a significant view. The should support the claim being made. 10 have not been presented that meet those requirements. Zero have been presented. --Tbeatty 05:52, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Perhaps you should stop playing games. You oppose things without ever stating why other then WP:XYZ. I asked above, noone answered, but to end this silly Undue Weight, Fringe game, how many sources need to be presented, over 10 have been so far. I need a number given so I can bring it to relevant forums, WP:RS and WP:V to get some answers. Thank you. --SevenOfDiamonds 05:44, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Silly is not a WP:CIVIL term. This I feel this is quite easy to grasp and very clear, and I'm sorry that you seem not to understand it. Either that or you are trollign and playing games is not civil. Need more? --Tbeatty 04:01, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
For Giovanni and Ultramarine, stop the circular game:
- Noone is citing the events of Nagasaki/Hiroshima were "state terrorism" as a "truth" or "fact"
- Reliable sources, meaning ones that pass WP:RS are stating that the events are "state terrorism" many specifically are using this term, I highlited them. Giovanni has replayed them above.
- The term genocide, if not mentioned by enough sources should be listed as a quote to someone. As long as it is listed as "Person X of University Y has stated act A = genocide" then it is permitted, barring that person meets the requirements of WP:RS.
- Undue Weight states that an item cannot be addressed in an article if reliable sources have not presented it, considering the 10+ sources, 5 or so I provided that directly state this, page numbers and quotes were provided, this requirement has been met.
- WP:NPOV This is where I agree with Ultramarine. I believe he should be permitted, and no reason not to, to present WP:RS sources that state the event was necessary to ending the war, in response to the section being drafted that states it was not. This is how NPOV work, it is not the removal of information but the balance of. However NPOV does not permit censorship on the grounds that there is no other view point. However I am sure plenty of sources can be found stating it was needed.
- Dman, not sure of the order of the postings, but I have already presented sources stating the view of many historians and they particularly cite it as 'state terrorism,' which is probably why there is growing frustration. I appreciate others joining in on the discussion, but please review the recent archives to get an idea of what has already been stated to prevent further rehasing.
- Reporting a source stating something that is a "concensus" doe snot make it a consensus, however and it should be noted as "Person X believes this is a consensus." so it is attributed and not a statement of fact.
If I missed anything let me know, but you guys are going in circles over things already covered for no reason. Try to move the debate forward, not around. --SevenOfDiamonds 06:03, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- This is about "state terrorism", so sources dealing with other topics should not be included. If such things are included, then NPOV requries mentioning all views. But we should resolve old problems first, see the Introduction section below, before creating new controversies.Ultramarine 13:54, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry I do not know what you are talking about. Like usual. I think I will soon take this to Arbcom or AN/I and request a topic ban for you. This constant arguing and misrepresentations of WP:RS are a bit over board, now the constant misrepresentation of Undue Weight as a new "policy weapon" is getting out of hand and starting to become quite disruptive to the numerous pages you post on. I have seen your tenditious editing spread to 4 or so other pages where you constantly argue in circles and the minute someone does not post for a day you declare your version to be concensus. This has all grown too frustrating and your behavior is qutie no the outs with the spirit of Wikipedia. I will start coordinating everything and let you know when I make the post so you can feel free to defend yourself. --SevenOfDiamonds 15:52, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- There are certainly many other editors disagreeing with your view here. Please respond to my point that we should resolve old controversies first.Ultramarine 16:55, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- I will post it in bold Sorry I do not know what you are talking about. Like usual. I am addressing in the above, the points raised and argued in this very section, hence why I do not know what you are talking about. Until the above is addressed though, I will consider the issue on Hiroshima closed as noone can play in circles anymore. --SevenOfDiamonds 17:05, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Again, we should really solve old controversies like the intro before creating new ones like this one regarding the bombins. I have raised many issues regarding exclusion of opposing views, inclusion of unrelated arguments, and POV language above, so not resolved.Ultramarine 17:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- And those have been answered. So unless you can address my points about that, and produce some sources to support your objections, then it can be considered resolved.Giovanni33 17:30, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- That is incorrect, there is still no resolution to the introduction controversy. Neither have I seen any answer to my point regarding pov language. There is no agreement regarding the inclusion/exclusion issue as per above.Ultramarine 17:39, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- I have addressed all the points mentioned in this section, if someone would like to present counters, wonderful, else this is resolved. --SevenOfDiamonds 17:46, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- I am not sure what Giovanni33 position is regarding your views which are different from some of his. I ask him to explain his view on your views.Ultramarine 17:56, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- I have no clue what you are talking about. Since noone is opposing what I stated above, this is resolved, feel free to let me know if you oppose any of it. --SevenOfDiamonds 18:02, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Your arguments and views on what should be included are different from those Giovanni33 has expressed previously, so we should at first hear if he agree, before going further.Ultramarine 18:07, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Are you saying you agree with the above? --SevenOfDiamonds 18:27, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Right now I am just saying that you two do not have a consensus.Ultramarine 18:30, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Are you saying you agree with the above? --SevenOfDiamonds 18:27, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Your arguments and views on what should be included are different from those Giovanni33 has expressed previously, so we should at first hear if he agree, before going further.Ultramarine 18:07, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- I have no clue what you are talking about. Since noone is opposing what I stated above, this is resolved, feel free to let me know if you oppose any of it. --SevenOfDiamonds 18:02, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- I am not sure what Giovanni33 position is regarding your views which are different from some of his. I ask him to explain his view on your views.Ultramarine 17:56, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- I have addressed all the points mentioned in this section, if someone would like to present counters, wonderful, else this is resolved. --SevenOfDiamonds 17:46, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- That is incorrect, there is still no resolution to the introduction controversy. Neither have I seen any answer to my point regarding pov language. There is no agreement regarding the inclusion/exclusion issue as per above.Ultramarine 17:39, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- And those have been answered. So unless you can address my points about that, and produce some sources to support your objections, then it can be considered resolved.Giovanni33 17:30, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Again, we should really solve old controversies like the intro before creating new ones like this one regarding the bombins. I have raised many issues regarding exclusion of opposing views, inclusion of unrelated arguments, and POV language above, so not resolved.Ultramarine 17:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- I will post it in bold Sorry I do not know what you are talking about. Like usual. I am addressing in the above, the points raised and argued in this very section, hence why I do not know what you are talking about. Until the above is addressed though, I will consider the issue on Hiroshima closed as noone can play in circles anymore. --SevenOfDiamonds 17:05, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- There are certainly many other editors disagreeing with your view here. Please respond to my point that we should resolve old controversies first.Ultramarine 16:55, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry I do not know what you are talking about. Like usual. I think I will soon take this to Arbcom or AN/I and request a topic ban for you. This constant arguing and misrepresentations of WP:RS are a bit over board, now the constant misrepresentation of Undue Weight as a new "policy weapon" is getting out of hand and starting to become quite disruptive to the numerous pages you post on. I have seen your tenditious editing spread to 4 or so other pages where you constantly argue in circles and the minute someone does not post for a day you declare your version to be concensus. This has all grown too frustrating and your behavior is qutie no the outs with the spirit of Wikipedia. I will start coordinating everything and let you know when I make the post so you can feel free to defend yourself. --SevenOfDiamonds 15:52, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
missing doubletick
there's a missing doubletick on the chomsky quote in the "using the united states' own definition" section. i'd have fixed it for you, but, you know, it's protected from being fixed. cheers, 69.143.136.139 01:57, 26 July 2007 (UTC) {{editprotected}}
Introduction
I have asked before but not recieved any good answers so I will ask again. Who are the "human rights organizations" accusing the US of terrorism? At least two are implied by the statement. Asian Human Rights Commission could be one,[28] but this is incorrect. They are merely quoting "Bay Area Indymedia" as a news item, like they do for many other news organizations that happen to mention the Asian Human Rights Commission. It is San Juan who makes this claims, and two times he cites the Commission, but none of cites make any claims of terrorism or state terrorism. So zero human rights organizations have made such claims. Similarly, who are the two "legal scholars"? One is presumably the member of the National Lawyers Guild, but who is the other?Ultramarine 18:18, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- You are correct. It should be removed as non-cited material, original research and synthesis. --Tbeatty 02:38, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- Since Giovanni33 does not want to discuss this we seem to have a consensus.Ultramarine 02:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- Don't get it twisted, you don't have consensus for your points here. The idea that a lack of response from one (admittedly unnecessarily argumentative) editor implies some sort of general consent for your point is utterly absurd, and asserting "consensus" (even in a joking fashion) is a bad move on this talk page.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 10:23, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- If you want to discuss the issues raised, please do. Ultramarine 10:33, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- Honestly no disrespect, but I don't want to discuss any of the "issues" raised because this talk page could and should be dead for awhile (I done said this before--so I'm reiterating). And that's the thing man. BS talk about "consensus" might well elicit a comment from me, and in this case it obviously did.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 11:20, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- If you do not want to follow the standard wikipedia dispute resolution and dicuss the issue, then we can only conclude that the issue is resolved.Ultramarine 11:56, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- I'll try and drum up some more sources. Give me a few hours. ... Seabhcan 12:07, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry, got side tracked and didn't have a chance to look properly. Can anyone else help? ... Seabhcan 11:09, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Since no one has been able to find supporting sources or want to raise concrete objections, is anyone objecting to Tbeatty's ccomment?Ultramarine 16:56, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- raises hand* since one is clearly mentioned, removing the total wording makes little sense. If anything change it to singular, however silly that is. --SevenOfDiamonds 17:06, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- There is a source for a member of National Lawyers Guild which could be used for changing to "legal scholar" from "legal scholars". There are none for "human rights organizations".Ultramarine 17:12, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- AHRC, as you noted above. I also presented one to you on the other page you argue on, ignoring it seems to be bad faith. --SevenOfDiamonds 17:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- As I noted AHRC does not accuse the US of terrorism.Ultramarine 17:15, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- You have mentioned an article from HRW in another article. That source did not accuse the US of terrorism or state terrorism either.Ultramarine 17:17, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- AHRC, as you noted above. I also presented one to you on the other page you argue on, ignoring it seems to be bad faith. --SevenOfDiamonds 17:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Since no one has been able to find supporting sources or want to raise concrete objections, is anyone objecting to Tbeatty's ccomment?Ultramarine 16:56, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- If you do not want to follow the standard wikipedia dispute resolution and dicuss the issue, then we can only conclude that the issue is resolved.Ultramarine 11:56, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- Honestly no disrespect, but I don't want to discuss any of the "issues" raised because this talk page could and should be dead for awhile (I done said this before--so I'm reiterating). And that's the thing man. BS talk about "consensus" might well elicit a comment from me, and in this case it obviously did.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 11:20, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- If you want to discuss the issues raised, please do. Ultramarine 10:33, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- Don't get it twisted, you don't have consensus for your points here. The idea that a lack of response from one (admittedly unnecessarily argumentative) editor implies some sort of general consent for your point is utterly absurd, and asserting "consensus" (even in a joking fashion) is a bad move on this talk page.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 10:23, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- Since Giovanni33 does not want to discuss this we seem to have a consensus.Ultramarine 02:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I also object but will not go around in circles on this issue, until you stop doing that to the Japan section issues, first. When that is resolved, then I'll addreess this issue. Until then I object to changes here.Giovanni33 17:18, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- This issue was raised first and should be resolved before new controversies.Ultramarine 17:20, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Disagree.Giovanni33 17:38, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Explain.Ultramarine 17:40, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Disagree.Giovanni33 17:38, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- HUSTISYA! (Victims of the US-Arroyo Regime United for Justice), SELDA (organization of political prisoners), Desaparacidos (organization of victims, relatives and friends of the disappeared), Bagong Alyansang Makabayan (BAYAN, New Patriotic Alliance), KARAPATAN (Alliance for the Advancement of People's Rights), Public Interest Law Center, Peace for Life, Philippine Peace Center, IBON Foundation, United Church of Christ in the Philippines and the Ecumenical Bishops Forum.
- The Permanent Peoples’ Tribunal: Second Session on the Philippines. --SevenOfDiamonds 17:42, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Muireann O'Briain, Richard Falk, Andrea Giardina are three of the jurors who found the guilty verdict, which are legal scholars. --SevenOfDiamonds 17:47, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- That is to unspecific. What article are you refering to?Ultramarine 17:53, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Muireann O'Briain, Richard Falk, Andrea Giardina are three of the jurors who found the guilty verdict, which are legal scholars. --SevenOfDiamonds 17:47, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Article? I am talking about The Permanent Peoples’ Tribunal: Second Session on the Philippines --SevenOfDiamonds 18:01, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Presumably you are again refering to his article: [29] Note that the Asian Human Rights Commission are merely quoting "Bay Area Indymedia" as a news item, like they do for many other news organizations that happen to mention the Asian Human Rights Commission. It is San Juan who makes this claims, and two times he cites the Commission, but none of cites make any claims of terrorism or state terrorism. I cannot see that any accusations of terrorism are made by any human rights organization in that article.Ultramarine 18:03, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- The Permanent Peoples’ Tribunal: Second Session on the Philippines Why do I have to keep posting this? --SevenOfDiamonds 18:06, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Presumably you are again refering to his article: [29] Note that the Asian Human Rights Commission are merely quoting "Bay Area Indymedia" as a news item, like they do for many other news organizations that happen to mention the Asian Human Rights Commission. It is San Juan who makes this claims, and two times he cites the Commission, but none of cites make any claims of terrorism or state terrorism. I cannot see that any accusations of terrorism are made by any human rights organization in that article.Ultramarine 18:03, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Article? I am talking about The Permanent Peoples’ Tribunal: Second Session on the Philippines --SevenOfDiamonds 18:01, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Also The quote is The United States of America has been accused of funding, training, and harboring individuals and groups who engage in terrorism by some legal scholars, other governments, and human rights organizations,[dubious – discuss] among others. Therefore the sources does not have to say "state terrorism." This has been pointed out to you before, forum-shopping is not appropriate. --SevenOfDiamonds 18:08, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- That is the the disputed statement in this article. Give an exact quote, source, and page numbers, where "The Permanent Peoples’ Tribunal: Second Session on the Philippines" has accused the US of terrorism or state terrorism, please.Ultramarine 18:09, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- The verdict. --SevenOfDiamonds 18:11, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Again, verdict regarding what and what is the quote? Ultramarine 18:12, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Regarding what? I do not get your question. Verdict of the The Permanent Peoples’ Tribunal: Second Session on the Philippines --SevenOfDiamonds 18:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- That is not a verifiable statement. It is like stating "Amnesty has stated..." and then not mentioning in what publication. Please name the specific report you refer to.Ultramarine 18:18, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- The verdict of the The Permanent Peoples’ Tribunal: Second Session on the Philippines --SevenOfDiamonds 18:21, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- I am not really sure what you are arguing anymore. I gave you a source, go read it. --SevenOfDiamonds 18:22, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Doubtful if it is a human rights organization. I have read it, and it does not accuse the US of terrorism.Ultramarine 18:30, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- To say Doubtful if it is a human rights organization means you did not read it, lying about sources is not proper. Since at the beginning of the verdict, they state who they are. --SevenOfDiamonds 18:31, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Regardless, does not accuse the US of terrorism in the verdict. Give a quote if claiming otherwise.Ultramarine 18:32, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry this conversation is over, you have just lied regarding sources and as such I cannot have a conversation with you regarding them. Good day. I have presented numerous HR groups who signed on with the above and the verdict issued. --SevenOfDiamonds 18:52, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- I am looking at the verdict right now and cannot see any accusations of state terrorism or terrorism by the US. Again, give a quote if you disagree. As noted above, no human rights organizatios accusing the US of this has been presented.Ultramarine 18:54, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- I am sure you are, like you were a moment ago. I am no longer dealing with you on this article. So we can leave this as oppose to the removal of material, since I have presented sources. --SevenOfDiamonds 19:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- I am looking at the verdict right now and cannot see any accusations of state terrorism or terrorism by the US. Again, give a quote if you disagree. As noted above, no human rights organizatios accusing the US of this has been presented.Ultramarine 18:54, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry this conversation is over, you have just lied regarding sources and as such I cannot have a conversation with you regarding them. Good day. I have presented numerous HR groups who signed on with the above and the verdict issued. --SevenOfDiamonds 18:52, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Regardless, does not accuse the US of terrorism in the verdict. Give a quote if claiming otherwise.Ultramarine 18:32, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- To say Doubtful if it is a human rights organization means you did not read it, lying about sources is not proper. Since at the beginning of the verdict, they state who they are. --SevenOfDiamonds 18:31, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Doubtful if it is a human rights organization. I have read it, and it does not accuse the US of terrorism.Ultramarine 18:30, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- I am not really sure what you are arguing anymore. I gave you a source, go read it. --SevenOfDiamonds 18:22, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- The verdict of the The Permanent Peoples’ Tribunal: Second Session on the Philippines --SevenOfDiamonds 18:21, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- That is not a verifiable statement. It is like stating "Amnesty has stated..." and then not mentioning in what publication. Please name the specific report you refer to.Ultramarine 18:18, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Regarding what? I do not get your question. Verdict of the The Permanent Peoples’ Tribunal: Second Session on the Philippines --SevenOfDiamonds 18:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Again, verdict regarding what and what is the quote? Ultramarine 18:12, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- The verdict. --SevenOfDiamonds 18:11, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- Now you know why I'm reluctant to deal with UltraMarine, too, as he engaged in TE editing practices, which seem to me, to be aimed at creating frustration though playing dumb and repeating himself. For the record, I looked at the source SevenOfDiamonds gave, and it does mention State terrorism and state terror several times.Giovanni33 19:17, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- It would be better if you gave sources for your claims, or agreed to remove them, rather than engage in personal attacks.Ultramarine 19:18, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- That has already been done, many times. If you choose to not see them then we can't help you further. Your conduct here on the talk page is classic TE, and if you are doing it purposefully, then that is not allowed. If you persist, you will not be taken seriously and just ignored.Giovanni33 19:22, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- No sources has been presented which mentions human rights organizations accusing the US of terrorism or state terrorism. I again ask you to give them, much better than personal attacks. Ad hominem is not a valid argument.Ultramarine 19:41, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- When you close your eyes, the world does not disappear. I think as far as myself is concerned, I will simpyl reply to you with a source or something and not engage in pointless chit chat after. Your lying has proven to be detrimental to my work and research here. --SevenOfDiamonds 19:47, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- No sources has been presented which mentions human rights organizations accusing the US of terrorism or state terrorism. I again ask you to give them, much better than personal attacks. Ad hominem is not a valid argument.Ultramarine 19:41, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- That has already been done, many times. If you choose to not see them then we can't help you further. Your conduct here on the talk page is classic TE, and if you are doing it purposefully, then that is not allowed. If you persist, you will not be taken seriously and just ignored.Giovanni33 19:22, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- It would be better if you gave sources for your claims, or agreed to remove them, rather than engage in personal attacks.Ultramarine 19:18, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- ^ Dinesh D'Souza (2004-11-07). "It Was Reagan Who Tore Down That Wall". Los Angeles Times. Los Angeles Times.
- ^ Robert D. Kaplan (July/August 2003). "Supremacy by Stealth". The Atlantic Monthly. The Atlantic Monthly Group.
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(help) - ^ Frederick H. Gareau, State Terrorism and the United States : From Counterinsurgency to the War on Terrorism / (Atlanta: Clarity Press, 2004) 41
- ^
Frey, Robert S. (2004). The Genocidal Temptation: Auschwitz, Hiroshima, Rwanda and Beyond. University Press of America. ISBN 0761827439. Reviewed at:
Rice, Sarah (2005). "The Genocidal Temptation: Auschwitz, Hiroshima, Rwanda and Beyond (Review)". Harvard Human Rights Journal. Vol. 18.
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Dower, John (1995). "The Bombed: Hiroshima and Nagasaki in Japanese Memory". Diplomatic History. Vol. 19 (no. 2).
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has extra text (help) - ^ Cumings, Bruce (1999). Parallax Visions. University Press of Duke. p. 54. Sherwin, Martin (1974). A World Destroyed: The Atomic Bomb and the Grand Alliance.
- ^ Weart, Spencer R. (1998). Never at War. Yale University Press. ISBN 0-300-07017-9.p. 221-224, 314.
- ^ No Lessons Learned from the Holocaust?, Barbara Harff, 2003.
- ^ Report on the Guatemala Review Intelligence Oversight Board. June 28, 1996.
- ^
Frey, Robert S. (2004). The Genocidal Temptation: Auschwitz, Hiroshima, Rwanda and Beyond. University Press of America. ISBN 0761827439. Reviewed at:
Rice, Sarah (2005). "The Genocidal Temptation: Auschwitz, Hiroshima, Rwanda and Beyond (Review)". Harvard Human Rights Journal. Vol. 18.
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Dower, John (1995). "The Bombed: Hiroshima and Nagasaki in Japanese Memory". Diplomatic History. Vol. 19 (no. 2).
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has extra text (help) - ^ Cumings, Bruce (1999). Parallax Visions. University Press of Duke. p. 54. Sherwin, Martin (1974). A World Destroyed: The Atomic Bomb and the Grand Alliance.
- ^ "Atomic Bomb: Decision — Target Committee, May 10–11, 1945".
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Eisenhower, Dwight D. (1963). The White House Years; Mandate For Change: 1953-1956. Doubleday & Company. pp. pp. 312-313.
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"Hiroshima: Quotes".
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"Bard Memorandum".
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"Decision: Part I".
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"United States Strategic Bombing Survey; Summary Report". United States Government Printing Office. 1946. pp. pg. 26.
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ignored (help) - ^ Newman, Robert (2004). Enola Gay and the Court of History (Frontiers in Political Communication). Peter Lang Publishing. ISBN 0-8204-7457-6.