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:::::I agree with {{u|Pahlevun}} that the material does not belong here. {{u|Icewhiz}} removed the passage which included the following text: {{tq|According to him, Iran's aversion to nuclear weapons is sincere...}}. This article is about Khamenei, not Iran. The detail is too much and does not belong in this BLP. If anything, the removed passage belongs to the main article per [[WP:SS]]. I have no opinion on Porter, because I don't know his works. As usual, no pinging, please. [[User:Dr.K.|<span style="font-weight:600;font-family: arial;color: steelblue;font-size: 1em;">Dr.</span>]] [[User talk:Dr.K.|<span style="font-weight:600;font-family: arial;color: steelblue; font-size: 1em">K.</span>]] 16:15, 27 September 2017 (UTC) |
:::::I agree with {{u|Pahlevun}} that the material does not belong here. {{u|Icewhiz}} removed the passage which included the following text: {{tq|According to him, Iran's aversion to nuclear weapons is sincere...}}. This article is about Khamenei, not Iran. The detail is too much and does not belong in this BLP. If anything, the removed passage belongs to the main article per [[WP:SS]]. I have no opinion on Porter, because I don't know his works. As usual, no pinging, please. [[User:Dr.K.|<span style="font-weight:600;font-family: arial;color: steelblue;font-size: 1em;">Dr.</span>]] [[User talk:Dr.K.|<span style="font-weight:600;font-family: arial;color: steelblue; font-size: 1em">K.</span>]] 16:15, 27 September 2017 (UTC) |
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::::::I suggest leaving out all of the analyses (Milani, Sadjadpour, Porter, etc.) for the child article and use a [[WP:AEIS|secondary source]] to write a summary in a few sentences. My preference is to use peer-reviewed and scholarly works, instead of journalist sources and I found two reliable secondary sources that discuss the fatwa: [http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00396338.2013.784471 Globalising Iran's Fatwa Against Nuclear Weapons] and [https://books.google.com/books/about/Ethics_of_War_and_Peace_in_Iran_and_Shi.html?id=VPptDQAAQBAJ Ethics of War and Peace in Iran and Shi'i Islam]. I think Porter's view is worth mentioning in the child article, like other views explained by other expert individuals. [[User:Pahlevun|Pahlevun]] ([[User talk:Pahlevun|talk]]) 17:23, 27 September 2017 (UTC) |
::::::I suggest leaving out all of the analyses (Milani, Sadjadpour, Porter, etc.) for the child article and use a [[WP:AEIS|secondary source]] to write a summary in a few sentences. My preference is to use peer-reviewed and scholarly works, instead of journalist sources and I found two reliable secondary sources that discuss the fatwa: [http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00396338.2013.784471 Globalising Iran's Fatwa Against Nuclear Weapons] and [https://books.google.com/books/about/Ethics_of_War_and_Peace_in_Iran_and_Shi.html?id=VPptDQAAQBAJ Ethics of War and Peace in Iran and Shi'i Islam]. I think Porter's view is worth mentioning in the child article, like other views explained by other expert individuals. [[User:Pahlevun|Pahlevun]] ([[User talk:Pahlevun|talk]]) 17:23, 27 September 2017 (UTC) |
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::::::Per Mhhossein's [[Wikipedia:Canvassing]], Pahlevun should not edit or even support Mhhossein here. Let others decide.--[[User:Psychonot|Psychonot]] ([[User talk:Psychonot|talk]]) 17:58, 27 September 2017 (UTC) |
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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 April 2017
At his President of Iran section, under the Supreme Leader thing, can you put Himself under the First Supreme Leader? He also served for a while under himself. Hiitsmebobby (talk) 21:54, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
- Hiitsmebobby: Can you elaborate on your request? What do you mean by "He also served for a while under himself." --Mhhossein talk 03:49, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
- User:Mhhossein: I mean, under his job as President of Iran, there is a section of Supreme Leader. It only says the first supreme leader of Iran, but he became Iran's leader while serving as President, so his name has to go under neath the Supreme Leader on his President of Iran job. Hiitsmebobby (Here's bobby's talk page.) 23:05, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. I've read your request four times now, and I don't understand what change you're asking for. RivertorchFIREWATER 05:36, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
- Neither did I...--Mhhossein talk 12:32, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
- Glad it wasn't just me . Since you had edited the article since the edit request, I looked to see if any of your changes might have addressed whatever the OP was requesting, but I gave up. Maybe you inadvertently fixed it! RivertorchFIREWATER 16:19, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
- Neither did I...--Mhhossein talk 12:32, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. I've read your request four times now, and I don't understand what change you're asking for. RivertorchFIREWATER 05:36, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
I can elaborate on this one: The point Hiitsmebobby is raising is that Ali Khamenei became the supreme leader of Iran in June 1989. He was already the president at the time and continued as incumbent president until August that year. Therefore, for a short period he was both the president and the leader of Iran. This leads to Hiitsmebobby's request to list Ali Khamenei along with Ruhollah Khomeini as "supreme leader" under "3rd president of Iran" cell of the table in the right side of this page. (P.S. I am not sure if this is a good idea.) Goharshady (talk) 11:49, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
- Note: Marking as answered. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) 01:38, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 May 2017
The current pronunciation is distinctly Arabic and does not follow the Persian native way. Please consider changing it to this one: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fa-ir-ali-khamenei_(1).ogg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Goharshady (talk • contribs) 14:40, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
- Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the
{{edit extended-protected}}
template. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) 17:15, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 May 2017 (2)
There have been a series of deletions based on copyright violations. I ask an extended confirmed user to restore the content with the following paraphrased texts (modifications are welcome, of course):
HERE:
According to The Telegraph, despite Khamenei wants to project an image of austerity, he has received important commissions from the country's arms and oil industries, and there have been allegations that he and his son have amassed a multi-billion dollar fortune.[1]
HERE:
In order to consolidate his power base, Khamenei has developed close relations with the security and military establishment, while also expanding the bureaucracy inside the government and around his Beit Rahbari compound.[2]
HERE:
Some Iranians have been sent to jail for insulting him.[3][4][5][6][7][8]
Also the fifth paragraph in lead is gramatically incorrect and confusing. I suggest changing it for this one:
There have been several major protests during Khamenei's reign, including the 1994 Qazvin Protests—where, according to Al-Arabiya, around 40 people were killed and over 400 were injured—[9] the 1999 Iranian student protests, the 2009 Iranian presidential election protests, when protesters chanted "death to the dictator",[10][11] and ripped down pictures of Khamenei,[12] as well as the 2011–12 Iranian protests, among others. Khamenei asked to maximize the amount of transparency in elections in Iran, using modern technologies.[13] --181.90.21.85 (talk) 19:35, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
References
- ^ "Iran's Ayatollah Khamenei embroiled in German car dealer row". Telegraph.co.uk. 2 May 2013.
- ^ "Ayatollah Khamenei's Journey". 19 June 2009.
- ^ "Iranian blogger, jailed for insulting Khamenei, dies in prison".
- ^ "Iran blogger jailed for Khamenei insult dies".
- ^ "Aide to Ahmadinejad sentenced to a year in jail for insulting Khamenei".
- ^ "Blogger jailed in Iran is dead, lawyer says - CNN.com".
- ^ "Journalist Gets 35 Lashes, Jail For Insulting Ayatollah".
- ^ "Iran student sentenced to 15 years for insulting Khamenei".
- ^ http://english.alarabiya.net/en/perspective/features/2016/12/06/The-Basij-Mostazafan-A-culture-of-martyrdom-and-death.html
- ^ "Khamenei was the victim of an attempted assassination". LinkDay.
- ^ "Police Are Said to Have Killed 10 in Iran Protests". The New York Times. 28 December 2009.
- ^ "Several killed, 300 arrested in Tehran protests".
- ^ "Leader outlines elections guidelines, calls for transparency". 15 October 2016.
- Done. El_C 03:36, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
- Note: Marking as answered. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) 17:24, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
Correction of link to Wikimedia
At the end of article, Wikimedia link in sister projects box is (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ali_Khamenei) which is wrong. It should be linked to his category (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ali_Khamenei).Shkuru Afshar (talk) 11:17, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
External links modified
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External links modified
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Fatwa section
@Icewhiz: The section you restored contains WP:SYNTH and lacks the viewpoints of the opponents and the supporters. Please note that some of the sentences such as " Iran's nuclear program has been a ..." and "President Rafsanjani admitted the nuclear ..." are not directly related to the fatwa while are much related to articles such as Nuclear program of Iran. However, if you find a source on the fatwa which discusses the Rafsanjani claims and relate it to the fatwa, I'm in favor including those materials. Please let me know about your view point on this. Regards. --Mhhossein talk 06:58, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
- Here's one [1]. I'm sure there are others. Note that you violated 1RR when removing this long-standing material on the article, and then re-reverting - you should self-revert.Icewhiz (talk) 07:06, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
- Also - note you removed quite a bit of other well-sourced material from the article, which provided balance to this fatwa. Even if you are claiming SYNTH regarding Rafsanjani (a clearly notable figure) on Khamenei's WMD record in the 80s and the fatwa - it is definitely not SYNTH regarding Khamenei - so at most this should be broken out to a separate section on Khamenei (and not the fatwa section).Icewhiz (talk) 07:14, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
- For your information, being "a clearly notable figure on Khamenei's WMD record" without a source linking between them, does not let us violate WP:SYNTH. However, your source made the proper link. --Mhhossein talk 07:29, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
- The former sourcing clearly tied this to Khamenei. You claimed not to Khamenei+Fatwa. So at most this should've been moved to a different section.Icewhiz (talk) 07:32, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
- Can you tell me which source I had missed? To which section is Rafsanjani's interview regarding Iranian Nuclear related? --Mhhossein talk 07:35, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
- All 3 previous sources tied to Nuclear weapon program. The following two - [2] [3], clearly tied to Khamenei. However, I added sourcing that relates this to Khamenei+Fatwa (which organizationally, is probably better anyway - placing WMD stances under one section).Icewhiz (talk) 07:43, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
- So, I was right. The point which you were probably missing was that the sources had to be directly talking about the Fatwa. As you see none of the older sources were talking about fatwa. Thanks for adding the sources, I'll trim it and will remove the non relevant sources. You can later add them to the relevant sections, if you're willing. --Mhhossein talk 11:24, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
- All 3 previous sources tied to Nuclear weapon program. The following two - [2] [3], clearly tied to Khamenei. However, I added sourcing that relates this to Khamenei+Fatwa (which organizationally, is probably better anyway - placing WMD stances under one section).Icewhiz (talk) 07:43, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
- Can you tell me which source I had missed? To which section is Rafsanjani's interview regarding Iranian Nuclear related? --Mhhossein talk 07:35, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
- The former sourcing clearly tied this to Khamenei. You claimed not to Khamenei+Fatwa. So at most this should've been moved to a different section.Icewhiz (talk) 07:32, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
- For your information, being "a clearly notable figure on Khamenei's WMD record" without a source linking between them, does not let us violate WP:SYNTH. However, your source made the proper link. --Mhhossein talk 07:29, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
- Also - note you removed quite a bit of other well-sourced material from the article, which provided balance to this fatwa. Even if you are claiming SYNTH regarding Rafsanjani (a clearly notable figure) on Khamenei's WMD record in the 80s and the fatwa - it is definitely not SYNTH regarding Khamenei - so at most this should be broken out to a separate section on Khamenei (and not the fatwa section).Icewhiz (talk) 07:14, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
cementing the power
I don't think we should have the opinion of that journalist in the lead. --Mhhossein talk 13:28, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
Power base
@Icewhiz and Mhhossein: Be it an opinion piece or anything else, there's no reason to include a single opinion in the lead. It can be inserted in a suitable section. Saff V. (talk) 13:28, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks you Saff V., I just opened a section on this matter. I also believe that we should include it in the body, not in the lead. --Mhhossein talk 13:30, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
- I don't think it is an opinion. If it isn't in the body - I concur that's a good place. Mhhossein - how about you insert it where you think it is appropriate?Icewhiz (talk) 13:41, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
- Please read WP:NEWSORG: "...Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." --Mhhossein talk 13:58, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
- This isn't a editorial or opinion. It is an expose, an article, covering Khamenei in detail. At least per my opinion of this article in Newsweek.Icewhiz (talk) 14:10, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
- An expose or Human interest reporting which are "not as reliable as news reporting, and may not be subject to the same rigorous standards of fact-checking and accuracy"? --Mhhossein talk 14:24, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
- An in-depth piece on a world leader on Newseek is not HIR. HIR is when cover some miserable/cute/destitute/amazing person/group (or all of the above) for engaging reader interest. As compelling a piece on Khamenei (or other world leaders) is for me or you, it does not engage readers as say a story on a blue dog or a one-armed child who overcame adversity to become the greatest.... So no, this is not a HIR.Icewhiz (talk) 14:33, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
- An expose or Human interest reporting which are "not as reliable as news reporting, and may not be subject to the same rigorous standards of fact-checking and accuracy"? --Mhhossein talk 14:24, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
- This isn't a editorial or opinion. It is an expose, an article, covering Khamenei in detail. At least per my opinion of this article in Newsweek.Icewhiz (talk) 14:10, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
- Please read WP:NEWSORG: "...Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." --Mhhossein talk 13:58, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
- I don't think it is an opinion. If it isn't in the body - I concur that's a good place. Mhhossein - how about you insert it where you think it is appropriate?Icewhiz (talk) 13:41, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with Icewhiz. The way Khamenei has created his power-base and used it to crash the opposition in Iran is well-documented. Removal of this information amounts to whitewashing the article. The Newsweek piece is RS and not an opinion. Dr. K. 17:24, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
I also agree with Icewhiz. There's nothing wrong with the source whatsoever.--DarkKing Rayleigh (talk) 18:15, 18 September 2017 (UTC)- @Dr.K.: So, you think there are enough reliable sources saying he "has created his power-base" so that we can state it as a fact? --Mhhossein talk 19:08, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
- @Mhhossein. You have a very bad habit. Why do you ping me only when there are two more editors who agree with me? Stop doing that. Don't ping me in any case, since I have this article watchlisted. All three of us agree that Newsweek is not an opinion piece. We all have given our opinions as to why, so no amount of badgering will change that. Dr. K. 20:11, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
- I had talked with Icewhiz before and DarkKing Rayleigh's is not counted since it's not policy based, just voting! I don't say that article in Newsweek is an opinion pice, I say we can't push a single opinion in the lead since it's WP:undue. Mhhossein talk 05:08, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
- It's not an opinion - it is a reliable source. I'm sure we could find more in-depth sourcing on how Khamenei consolidated his power base (what he did, to whom, with whom, etc.) - you don't reign supreme as supreme leader for so long without a strong foundation - and after you reign for so long (and in a country that is still somewhat open (Iran is NOT NK), and from which people immigrate and emigrate) - information comes out. The wording in Newsweek is actually quite tame compared to some other sources that we might introduce.Icewhiz (talk) 05:55, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
- I agree. It is not simply an opinion. I will restore the piece at the lead. Dr. K. 05:59, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
- You can't restore it unless you find enough reliable sources for that. By the way, per WP:ONUS
"While information must be verifiable in order to be included in an article, this does not mean that all verifiable information must be included in an article."
--Mhhossein talk 06:52, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
- You can't restore it unless you find enough reliable sources for that. By the way, per WP:ONUS
- I agree. It is not simply an opinion. I will restore the piece at the lead. Dr. K. 05:59, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
- It's not an opinion - it is a reliable source. I'm sure we could find more in-depth sourcing on how Khamenei consolidated his power base (what he did, to whom, with whom, etc.) - you don't reign supreme as supreme leader for so long without a strong foundation - and after you reign for so long (and in a country that is still somewhat open (Iran is NOT NK), and from which people immigrate and emigrate) - information comes out. The wording in Newsweek is actually quite tame compared to some other sources that we might introduce.Icewhiz (talk) 05:55, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
- I had talked with Icewhiz before and DarkKing Rayleigh's is not counted since it's not policy based, just voting! I don't say that article in Newsweek is an opinion pice, I say we can't push a single opinion in the lead since it's WP:undue. Mhhossein talk 05:08, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
- @Mhhossein. You have a very bad habit. Why do you ping me only when there are two more editors who agree with me? Stop doing that. Don't ping me in any case, since I have this article watchlisted. All three of us agree that Newsweek is not an opinion piece. We all have given our opinions as to why, so no amount of badgering will change that. Dr. K. 20:11, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
- @Dr.K.: So, you think there are enough reliable sources saying he "has created his power-base" so that we can state it as a fact? --Mhhossein talk 19:08, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
Porter's opinion
Regarding your recent edit, how did you decided that Gareth Porter's opinion published by the Foreign Policy Magazine[4] is "non-notable"? It's a weird statement, to be frank. Did you know that Porter is an "investigative journalist, author and policy analyst specializing in U.S. national security policy"? Moreover, Elham is minor official? --Mhhossein talk 08:13, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
- Elam is a minor official, no doubt, in relation to the supreme leader and bound by law (as all Iranian residents) from saying or writing anything that could be construed as an insult to the supreme leader. That Porter's opnion got published - does not make it notable. Porter himself has, as discussed in this talk page previously, a FRINGE view regarding Iran - e.g. his attendance at the 9/11 truther and holocaust denying New Horizon conference in Tehran - [5].Icewhiz (talk) 08:18, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
- Your previous discussion with others has nothing to do with this subject. Your calling him a "FRINGE view" is weird again because:
"Shmuel Meir, a research fellow at the Center for Strategic Studies at Tel Aviv University and former researcher at the IDF's intelligence unit and the IDF’s Planning Department strategic unit, called Porter "the only journalist and investigator in the world who read, with an unbiased eye, all the IAEA reports and the American intelligence reports of the last several decades regarding the Iranian issue"
[6][7]Hans Blix, former director general of the IAEA and former executive chairman of the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission, wrote: "I feel grateful to Gareth Porter for his intrusive and critical examination of intelligence material passed to the IAEA."[8]
- ...(You can find some other quotes showing his expertise with regard to Iran Nuclear issue)
- You should restore the well sourced materials to the article. --Mhhossein talk 12:22, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
- Appropriately notifying @Pahlevun:. --Mhhossein talk 12:38, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
- I think the section is too much detailed and contradicts with WP:SS, when there is a child article. The best solution is to mention the subject in summary and leave the analysis for the child article. Pahlevun (talk) 13:05, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
- Pahlevun: This was my suggested version, which could be trimmed to include the main points. Anyway, what do you think regarding the inclusion of Gareth Porter's opinion given the quotes I copied above. --Mhhossein talk 13:11, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
- I think the section is too much detailed and contradicts with WP:SS, when there is a child article. The best solution is to mention the subject in summary and leave the analysis for the child article. Pahlevun (talk) 13:05, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
- Your previous discussion with others has nothing to do with this subject. Your calling him a "FRINGE view" is weird again because:
- I agree with Pahlevun that the material does not belong here. Icewhiz removed the passage which included the following text:
According to him, Iran's aversion to nuclear weapons is sincere...
. This article is about Khamenei, not Iran. The detail is too much and does not belong in this BLP. If anything, the removed passage belongs to the main article per WP:SS. I have no opinion on Porter, because I don't know his works. As usual, no pinging, please. Dr. K. 16:15, 27 September 2017 (UTC)- I suggest leaving out all of the analyses (Milani, Sadjadpour, Porter, etc.) for the child article and use a secondary source to write a summary in a few sentences. My preference is to use peer-reviewed and scholarly works, instead of journalist sources and I found two reliable secondary sources that discuss the fatwa: Globalising Iran's Fatwa Against Nuclear Weapons and Ethics of War and Peace in Iran and Shi'i Islam. I think Porter's view is worth mentioning in the child article, like other views explained by other expert individuals. Pahlevun (talk) 17:23, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with Pahlevun that the material does not belong here. Icewhiz removed the passage which included the following text:
- Per Mhhossein's Wikipedia:Canvassing, Pahlevun should not edit or even support Mhhossein here. Let others decide.--Psychonot (talk) 17:58, 27 September 2017 (UTC)