Conflicting narratives |
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I question whether "riot"/"rioting" is the correct term here. Uri, AFAICT, does not use riot to describe the events (which he does describe as organized violence) in his account. My understanding is that the Tsarist narrative was to cast these (and other events in the revolution of 1905) as "riots" (as well as usd "subversives"), whereas the revolutionaries/militants/activists describe this as revolutionary actions or violence against the Tsarist regime (seeing the "thieves" or "pimps" as part of those in the fold of the regime). [[User:Icewhiz|Icewhiz]] ([[User talk:Icewhiz|talk]]) 06:31, 28 February 2019 (UTC) |
I question whether "riot"/"rioting" is the correct term here. Uri, AFAICT, does not use riot to describe the events (which he does describe as organized violence) in his account. My understanding is that the Tsarist narrative was to cast these (and other events in the revolution of 1905) as "riots" (as well as usd "subversives"), whereas the revolutionaries/militants/activists describe this as revolutionary actions or violence against the Tsarist regime (seeing the "thieves" or "pimps" as part of those in the fold of the regime). [[User:Icewhiz|Icewhiz]] ([[User talk:Icewhiz|talk]]) 06:31, 28 February 2019 (UTC) |
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: I'll note that this seems deliberate by Ury - as he does use riot elsewhere - e.g. on page 130 (right after the section on Warsaw 1905) he uses a anti-Jewish riots to describe the widespread (through the Russian empire) pogroms that kill a few hundred in October 1905. [[User:Icewhiz|Icewhiz]] ([[User talk:Icewhiz|talk]]) 07:35, 28 February 2019 (UTC) |
: I'll note that this seems deliberate by Ury - as he does use riot elsewhere - e.g. on page 130 (right after the section on Warsaw 1905) he uses a anti-Jewish riots to describe the widespread (through the Russian empire) pogroms that kill a few hundred in October 1905. [[User:Icewhiz|Icewhiz]] ([[User talk:Icewhiz|talk]]) 07:35, 28 February 2019 (UTC) |
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== Conflicting narratives == |
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Looking through sources, I see a number of different conflicting narratives here: |
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# Framing this as [[Bund]] against Jewish pimps (legals and illegals, I think!). e.g. Ury or Engelstein are examples of this. |
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# Illegal vs. Legal prostitution - the illegal pimps targeting the legals. e.g. - [https://books.google.co.il/books?id=HeUvRvZY0dEC&pg=PA87&dq=illegal+legal+prostitution+1905+warsaw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi8o925ld7gAhUI3KQKHd9XCBYQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=illegal%20legal%20prostitution%201905%20warsaw&f=false here]. In this regard - those who claim this tend to say that only forty legal brothels were destroyed - whereas other sources state 100 (and above) apartments would would probably include illegals. |
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# Polish (non-Jewish participation on either side) - seems to be present in some of the Polish sources, I don't quite see it elsewhere. |
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# Framing this as some sort of "anti white slavery" / impropriety (usually tied into (1)). e.g. Engelstein. |
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# The (failed) Russian attempt to organize a counter-pogrom - seems missing from many sources. |
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Ury's account that {{tq|"Although accounts differ over the exact origins and course of the violence, most renditions concur that bands of Jewish workers went from brothel to brothel for several days ransacking property and assaulting both prostitutes and pimps"}} (bottom of page 126 through 127) confirms that there are different accounts here - but also stresses a commonality (Jewish bands attacking brothels). All this being said - I think we should, besides this point of commonality, '''attribute each different narrative''' - as it would seem that this is a case in which sources we would generally consider reliable for history (academically published by specialist authors) disagree on details/narrative (possibly since accounts from the 1905 revolution are sketchy and conflicting to begin with). [[User:Icewhiz|Icewhiz]] ([[User talk:Icewhiz|talk]]) 10:10, 28 February 2019 (UTC) |
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most accounts agree on Jewish bands going from brothel to brothel is |
Revision as of 10:10, 28 February 2019
Sexology and sexuality: Sex work C‑class Low‑importance | |||||||||||||
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Poland C‑class Low‑importance | ||||||||||
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Jewish history C‑class Low‑importance | ||||||||||
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Jewish Labour Bund Task Force C‑class (defunct) | |||||||
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Socialism C‑class Low‑importance | ||||||||||
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Riot?
I question whether "riot"/"rioting" is the correct term here. Uri, AFAICT, does not use riot to describe the events (which he does describe as organized violence) in his account. My understanding is that the Tsarist narrative was to cast these (and other events in the revolution of 1905) as "riots" (as well as usd "subversives"), whereas the revolutionaries/militants/activists describe this as revolutionary actions or violence against the Tsarist regime (seeing the "thieves" or "pimps" as part of those in the fold of the regime). Icewhiz (talk) 06:31, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- I'll note that this seems deliberate by Ury - as he does use riot elsewhere - e.g. on page 130 (right after the section on Warsaw 1905) he uses a anti-Jewish riots to describe the widespread (through the Russian empire) pogroms that kill a few hundred in October 1905. Icewhiz (talk) 07:35, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
Conflicting narratives
Looking through sources, I see a number of different conflicting narratives here:
- Framing this as Bund against Jewish pimps (legals and illegals, I think!). e.g. Ury or Engelstein are examples of this.
- Illegal vs. Legal prostitution - the illegal pimps targeting the legals. e.g. - here. In this regard - those who claim this tend to say that only forty legal brothels were destroyed - whereas other sources state 100 (and above) apartments would would probably include illegals.
- Polish (non-Jewish participation on either side) - seems to be present in some of the Polish sources, I don't quite see it elsewhere.
- Framing this as some sort of "anti white slavery" / impropriety (usually tied into (1)). e.g. Engelstein.
- The (failed) Russian attempt to organize a counter-pogrom - seems missing from many sources.
Ury's account that "Although accounts differ over the exact origins and course of the violence, most renditions concur that bands of Jewish workers went from brothel to brothel for several days ransacking property and assaulting both prostitutes and pimps"
(bottom of page 126 through 127) confirms that there are different accounts here - but also stresses a commonality (Jewish bands attacking brothels). All this being said - I think we should, besides this point of commonality, attribute each different narrative - as it would seem that this is a case in which sources we would generally consider reliable for history (academically published by specialist authors) disagree on details/narrative (possibly since accounts from the 1905 revolution are sketchy and conflicting to begin with). Icewhiz (talk) 10:10, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
most accounts agree on Jewish bands going from brothel to brothel is