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The article uses 2011's census quite a bit, primarily with religious statistics. That's fine but do note the census is extremely questionable and has been deemed corrupt by Albanian authorities as well as the Council of Europe. This should be noted when used. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/122.60.22.201|122.60.22.201]] ([[User talk:122.60.22.201#top|talk]]) 02:54, 1 November 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
The article uses 2011's census quite a bit, primarily with religious statistics. That's fine but do note the census is extremely questionable and has been deemed corrupt by Albanian authorities as well as the Council of Europe. This should be noted when used. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/122.60.22.201|122.60.22.201]] ([[User talk:122.60.22.201#top|talk]]) 02:54, 1 November 2020 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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= =Origins: Controversy or Debate? == |
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While the two words are similar, debate, in my opinion, applies to the Origin of Albanians over controversy. |
While the two words are similar, debate, in my opinion, applies to the Origin of Albanians over controversy. |
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However, the debate on for example the Illyrian theory, Thracian theory etc still continues and likely always will. That is quite different from the general controversy of Albanian origin that is found primarily online as that form of controversy is linked to nationalistic rivalries within the region, and not academia, research, linguistics etc. <!-- Template:Unsigned -->{{small|1=<span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Varvanitis|Varvanitis]] ([[User talk:Varvanitis#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Varvanitis|contribs]]) 22:56, 19 November 2020 (UTC)</span>}} <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
However, the debate on for example the Illyrian theory, Thracian theory etc still continues and likely always will. That is quite different from the general controversy of Albanian origin that is found primarily online as that form of controversy is linked to nationalistic rivalries within the region, and not academia, research, linguistics etc. <!-- Template:Unsigned -->{{small|1=<span class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Varvanitis|Varvanitis]] ([[User talk:Varvanitis#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Varvanitis|contribs]]) 22:56, 19 November 2020 (UTC)</span>}} <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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=Albanians are banned me for saying truth about sources :)= |
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I read sources one of them literally named "Greater Albania" and i cannot find any sourced in google like 5 million Albanian in Turkey. Its just funny. And one of the albanian facist banned me for fixed this. |
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12 Million Albanians
No one of provided sources confirms this number. Simple calculation of numbers from different sources made by some editor or editors is WP:OR. Please, provide WP:RS. Wikipedia articles must not contain original research. Jingiby (talk) 19:16, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- You are right, is it okay to remove the "12" million and the tagg?--Lorik17 (talk) 19:22, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- Simple calculations are not necessarily OR, per WP:CALC. If multiple RS for Albanian diaspora indeed result with 12 million Albanians, summarizing them is not OR.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:01, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- There are more Albanians in Turkey then there are Albanians in Albania and Kosovo combined (Turkish leaders like Erdogan have stated this publicly many times as have some prominent officials like Ahmet Davitoglu) due to ethnic cleansing, forced displacement and Serbianisation (Slavisation, Yugoslavisation) and Hellenistion campaigns by Serbia and Greece over the past hundred years. The numbers of Albanians are high.Resnjari (talk) 03:50, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- Do you want to say that it is necessary to include more than one million of Serbianised and Hellenized Albanians also in the total number of Albanians? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:40, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- Most of this people are decedents of 19th and early 20th century emigrants. The vast majority of them identify as Turks and even do not speak Albanian. I know that a 2008 report from the Turkish National Security Council estimated that approximately 1.3 million people of Albanian ancestry live in Turkey, and ca. 500,000 recognizing their ancestry. However we know that in a 2011 survey, only 0.2% within Turkey or roughly 150,000 people have identify themselves as Albanian. We calculate here neither decedents, nor people from mixed marriages, but people who really identify themselves as Albanians and are counted as such by reliable sources, as Hakan Şükür for example. Otherwise over 1,000,000 descendants of Bulgarian Muslims living in Turkey must be counted as Bulgarians, but this is nonsense. And last but not least the data for the final figures worldwide must be backed be WP:RS. PS. Striking example would be Erdoğan who is with Georgian forefathers, which migrated after the Russo-Turkish War (1877–78) from Batumi to Rize. I.e he must be counted as part of Muslim Georgians.Jingiby (talk) 04:52, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- Jingiby this is a good point but actually a number of Bulgarian Muslims in Turkey are being counted as Bulgarians on Bulgarian people. This is done with other groups such as Scottish people where you realize most Scots in the infobox are in fact in diaspora. One major difference is that the number for Bulgarians on that page is realistic (or even low) and the number for Scot-descended people huge but also realistic given some historical events, the number for Albanians mentions the cited, but completely ridiculous, number of "5 million" (this is likely ridiculous even if we are not talking about Albanian identity but being Albanian-descended in any meaningful way, i.e. more than a quarter Albanian at least not "well one of my great great grandfathers..."); the 1.2 million number for Albanian-descended people in Turkey on the other hand is much more realistic. Well, actually, if we sum together the high estimate claims about # of x(-descended) group in Turkey in infoboxes, we get some interesting results... 20 million Kurds + 7 million "Circassians" (This actually includes many non-Circassians like Lezgins who call themselves Circassians because it's trendy nowadays -- but that doesn't change the number) + 6 million Crimeans + 5 million Arabs + 5 million "Albanians" -- now we already have minorities as the majority of an aggregate 43 million (?!!!) in Turkey, but continuing we get another 2 million Bosniaks + 1 million Georgians if we believe Milliyet + another 5 million or so combining Bulgarians (0.6 mil)+Roma (0.7) +Azerbaijanis (0.8) + Laz (1.6) + Abkhaz (0.6) + Iranians (0.5)... While the Turkish gov't view (minimizing minorities) is not what we should be using, most third party sources also will not have ethnic Turks at something lower than 70% -- let alone being a minority in their homeland with minorities consisting of some over 50 million individuals. --Calthinus (talk) 02:49, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- Additionally, Greece -- has a source that is from 2006. Likely outdated given that some return migration occurred in the financial crisis. No idea which figure if any is dependent on that source, I didn't add it. --Calthinus (talk) 03:29, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- Manually adding the notable places myself (skipping any less than 10000) I got that, if the Turkey figure is moved to 1.2 mil and the Greece number changed from 0.6 mil to 0.3 mil, we still end up with a high end Albanian estimate of 8.5 million. --Calthinus (talk) 03:34, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Jingby to an extent yes. But a few clarifications. A large part of the population of Albanians in Turkey are the descendants of refugees, not migrants who exercised free will in going to Turkey. At the time they went to Turkey because it was the main country that accepted Muslim refugees. Balkan countries, in particular Serbia (later Yugoslavia) and Greece forced Muslim Albanians out and the process is referenced and given in detail in the Albanians in Turkey article. The study that you refer too by the military done in the early 2000s was a incomplete one done by the then Kemalist government and there were controversies around it. Anyway i am not here to discuss that. Unlike the Pomaks etc in Turkey the current Turkish AKP government themselves acknowledge many times publicly (even Erdogan) that there are more Albanians in Turkey than in Albania and Kosovo combined. To claim that somehow it is not the case is to omit that officially the state recognises that as a fact. I will also note that the Turkish government does not make the same claim in reference to other minorities in Turkey. The Turkish state itself believes that Albanians are there in very large numbers in the country unlike other communities. To what extent the community speaks Albanian or holds on to Albanian identity etc is an academic issue.Resnjari (talk) 03:57, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- Manually adding the notable places myself (skipping any less than 10000) I got that, if the Turkey figure is moved to 1.2 mil and the Greece number changed from 0.6 mil to 0.3 mil, we still end up with a high end Albanian estimate of 8.5 million. --Calthinus (talk) 03:34, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- Additionally, Greece -- has a source that is from 2006. Likely outdated given that some return migration occurred in the financial crisis. No idea which figure if any is dependent on that source, I didn't add it. --Calthinus (talk) 03:29, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- Jingiby this is a good point but actually a number of Bulgarian Muslims in Turkey are being counted as Bulgarians on Bulgarian people. This is done with other groups such as Scottish people where you realize most Scots in the infobox are in fact in diaspora. One major difference is that the number for Bulgarians on that page is realistic (or even low) and the number for Scot-descended people huge but also realistic given some historical events, the number for Albanians mentions the cited, but completely ridiculous, number of "5 million" (this is likely ridiculous even if we are not talking about Albanian identity but being Albanian-descended in any meaningful way, i.e. more than a quarter Albanian at least not "well one of my great great grandfathers..."); the 1.2 million number for Albanian-descended people in Turkey on the other hand is much more realistic. Well, actually, if we sum together the high estimate claims about # of x(-descended) group in Turkey in infoboxes, we get some interesting results... 20 million Kurds + 7 million "Circassians" (This actually includes many non-Circassians like Lezgins who call themselves Circassians because it's trendy nowadays -- but that doesn't change the number) + 6 million Crimeans + 5 million Arabs + 5 million "Albanians" -- now we already have minorities as the majority of an aggregate 43 million (?!!!) in Turkey, but continuing we get another 2 million Bosniaks + 1 million Georgians if we believe Milliyet + another 5 million or so combining Bulgarians (0.6 mil)+Roma (0.7) +Azerbaijanis (0.8) + Laz (1.6) + Abkhaz (0.6) + Iranians (0.5)... While the Turkish gov't view (minimizing minorities) is not what we should be using, most third party sources also will not have ethnic Turks at something lower than 70% -- let alone being a minority in their homeland with minorities consisting of some over 50 million individuals. --Calthinus (talk) 02:49, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- There are more Albanians in Turkey then there are Albanians in Albania and Kosovo combined (Turkish leaders like Erdogan have stated this publicly many times as have some prominent officials like Ahmet Davitoglu) due to ethnic cleansing, forced displacement and Serbianisation (Slavisation, Yugoslavisation) and Hellenistion campaigns by Serbia and Greece over the past hundred years. The numbers of Albanians are high.Resnjari (talk) 03:50, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- Simple calculations are not necessarily OR, per WP:CALC. If multiple RS for Albanian diaspora indeed result with 12 million Albanians, summarizing them is not OR.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:01, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
Should we add minor languages?
I feel we should add more minor languages as Albanian communities speak them. For example, Turkey has many ethnic Albanians and they speak Turkish. Same for Italy, Greece, and other countries.Thenabster126 (talk) 19:20, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
- Nah, it is better as is now. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:38, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
- I don't see why that is necessary here. On Albanian communities in the diaspora etc that info is given in their respective pages. If a reader wants to know more about them, they can consult those articles. Also cramming all that info in this infobox does a disservice, as it is already limited for space.Resnjari (talk) 22:49, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
Is an infobox required here?Thenabster126 (talk) 03:30, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- Other articles have an infobox on ethnic groups and so does this one.Resnjari (talk) 03:39, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
Why do other articles have minor languages? Should we delete them?Thenabster126 (talk) 19:16, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- Other articles are other articles. If you want to take it up with them go ahead. There are many articles on Albanian communities around the world where their distinct linguistic situations are explained. I don't really see what adding a whole host of languages to the infobox of this main article about Albanians means unless to give off the impression that the Albanian language is just one of many languages, and not really the main thing with this ethnic group. Its not needed here. If a readers wants to know about Albanians in Turkey or Australia they can go and readup on those pages for more info.Resnjari (talk) 23:47, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
Harvey Sarner
Harvey Sarner was an attorney, not a journalist or scholar. His writings are not WP:RS. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 23:45, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
- Being an attorney doesn't prevent anyone from creating reliable material, also the link you provided actually proves Harvey's credibility and importance within Jewish studies and Jewry in general. Note that a discussion on the removal of content should be held before the revert of the sourced material. N.Hoxha (talk) 00:00, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
- The mere fact that a book isn't self-published doesn't automatically make it a reliable source. The printing of this particular book was financed by the Albanian American Civic League and distributed to American Jewish communities for PR purposes in the lead-up to the Kosovo War. It has been used to disseminate factually incorrect tropes about the Holocaust in Albania, such as that 100% of Albanian Jews were saved or that Albania was the only country in Europe whose Jewish population increased over the course of the war. Both are demonstrably false. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 15:15, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
- Being financed from the Albanian American league doesn't prove or demonstrate in any shape or form that the material is unreliable. I'm not sure to understand your rhetoric about Jews and the Kosovo war, are you trying to suggest that Jews were responsible or involved in the war of Kosovo? I want to ask you to clarify those claims, as Jews have been wrongfully accused multiple times of creating wars by notorious anti-semitics and racists. Such claims are unacceptable on Wikipedia. N.Hoxha (talk) 15:50, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
- Way to build a straw man there, bucko, and avoid addressing the issue. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 22:44, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
- It clearly shows that it as a partisan source, and a strong link with national goals of the time has been established. If you want to spin, you should do it much better. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 01:06, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
- Way to build a straw man there, bucko, and avoid addressing the issue. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 22:44, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
- Being financed from the Albanian American league doesn't prove or demonstrate in any shape or form that the material is unreliable. I'm not sure to understand your rhetoric about Jews and the Kosovo war, are you trying to suggest that Jews were responsible or involved in the war of Kosovo? I want to ask you to clarify those claims, as Jews have been wrongfully accused multiple times of creating wars by notorious anti-semitics and racists. Such claims are unacceptable on Wikipedia. N.Hoxha (talk) 15:50, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
- The mere fact that a book isn't self-published doesn't automatically make it a reliable source. The printing of this particular book was financed by the Albanian American Civic League and distributed to American Jewish communities for PR purposes in the lead-up to the Kosovo War. It has been used to disseminate factually incorrect tropes about the Holocaust in Albania, such as that 100% of Albanian Jews were saved or that Albania was the only country in Europe whose Jewish population increased over the course of the war. Both are demonstrably false. Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 15:15, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
2011 Census Caution
The article uses 2011's census quite a bit, primarily with religious statistics. That's fine but do note the census is extremely questionable and has been deemed corrupt by Albanian authorities as well as the Council of Europe. This should be noted when used. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.60.22.201 (talk) 02:54, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
=Origins: Controversy or Debate? =
While the two words are similar, debate, in my opinion, applies to the Origin of Albanians over controversy.
There is little to no controversy on Albanian origin as being from the region they inhabit - this consensus was reached quite a while ago and there are readily available, peer reviewed sources from multiple disciplines that confirm this.
However, the debate on for example the Illyrian theory, Thracian theory etc still continues and likely always will. That is quite different from the general controversy of Albanian origin that is found primarily online as that form of controversy is linked to nationalistic rivalries within the region, and not academia, research, linguistics etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Varvanitis (talk • contribs) 22:56, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
Albanians are banned me for saying truth about sources :)
I read sources one of them literally named "Greater Albania" and i cannot find any sourced in google like 5 million Albanian in Turkey. Its just funny. And one of the albanian facist banned me for fixed this.