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: The word ''[[Masjid]]'' ({{lang-ar|مَـسْـجِـد}}) literally means "Place of Prostration", not necessarily a building that is used by [[Muslim]]s for [[Salah|worship]], so there is a difference between the building that came after [[Muhammad]]'s lifetime, and the concept of ''Al-Masjid al-Aqṣā'' ({{lang-ar|ٱلْـمَـسْـجِـد الْأَقْـصَى}}, "The Farthest Place-of-Prostration"), and in the section below, something similar to this was said. [[User:Leo1pard|Leo1pard]] ([[User talk:Leo1pard|talk]]) 03:48, 17 April 2018 (UTC) |
: The word ''[[Masjid]]'' ({{lang-ar|مَـسْـجِـد}}) literally means "Place of Prostration", not necessarily a building that is used by [[Muslim]]s for [[Salah|worship]], so there is a difference between the building that came after [[Muhammad]]'s lifetime, and the concept of ''Al-Masjid al-Aqṣā'' ({{lang-ar|ٱلْـمَـسْـجِـد الْأَقْـصَى}}, "The Farthest Place-of-Prostration"), and in the section below, something similar to this was said. [[User:Leo1pard|Leo1pard]] ([[User talk:Leo1pard|talk]]) 03:48, 17 April 2018 (UTC) |
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Jerusalem was never mentioned once in the Quran but more than 500 times in the Bible. There is no such thing as an islamic link to Jerusalem. It`s a muslim myth, a lie and something that should not be repeated here. [[Special:Contributions/46.93.255.179|46.93.255.179]] ([[User talk:46.93.255.179|talk]]) 21:03, 19 July 2018 (UTC) |
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Logical error in my mind
" Muslims believe that Muhammad was transported from the Sacred Mosque in Mecca to al-Aqsa during the Night Journey."
Yes they do based on surah 17:1 "Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram to al-Masjid al- Aqsa, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing."
He(God/Allah), his servant(Mohammed)
Logical problem: Mohammed died according to islamic sources in 632 AD, no Muslim ever entered Jeruslam before 638 and the al-aqsa mosque began to build decades after his death and finished in 705 AD.
How could Mohammed possibly have seen the al-Aqsa if the building was built and finished decades after his death? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.22.146.108 (talk) 00:25, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
- The same way Jesus rose from the dead and Joshua held the sun in the sky. It's called faith. Some people have it, some people don't. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 02:42, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
- Malik is correct. I'll also note that the surah does not mention a particular building. Recall that the entire platform of the Haram is called al-Masjid al-Haram by a common tradition. Zerotalk 02:53, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
@malik Jesus rising from the dead and Joshua holding the sun in the sky are positions you can neither prove or disprove. It`s really faith. A logical fallacy like surah 17:1 remains a major error within a book according to islamic beliefs made by God and therefore it should be free of mistakes. You cannot have it both ways. Either surah 17:1 mentions the al aqsa mosque as located in Jerusalem like the article does or a different mosque/location is meant. But then the article includes false information and the islamic link to Jerusalem vanishes.91.22.150.62 (talk) 03:53, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
- On the small chance that you're not a troll, Zero already explained to you that the Quran doesn't say Muhammad was taken to the al-Aqsa Mosque building in Jerusalem. It says that he was taken to "the farthest mosque" or "the most remote mosque", which is what "al-Aqsa" means. "The farthest mosque" is generally interpreted to be a reference to the site of the present-day mosque building in Jerusalem. See Isra and Mi'raj#Al-Masjid al-Aqsa. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:56, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
- Anyway, both holding the sun still contrary to all astronomical knowledge and coming back to life contrary to all medical knowledge are more spectacular miracles than visiting a building before it was built. To argue that just of them is impossible is pretty silly, imo. Zerotalk 05:23, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
@zero Mohammed splitting the moon into two pieces and riding back to heaven on a never seen winged horse completly out of touch with physics and evolution is impossible. Jesus rising from the death is possible, also keep in mind metaphors. The chances of visiting a building before it was built are zero percent.
@malik The article says different. "" Muslims believe that Muhammad was transported from the Sacred Mosque in Mecca to al-Aqsa during the Night Journey." The article deals with the mosque in Jerusalem being built in 705 AD not some random "site". Also most muslims and clerics oppose your view, clearly believing that the building finished 70 years after the death of Mohammed is meant. Also the emotional reaction in arab countries to Trump`s decision to move the embassy supports that point of view.91.22.150.62 (talk) 07:46, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
- Muslim reverence for Jerusalem came from the traditions of Jewish and Christian tribes in Arabia. All the Abrahamic faiths elaborate a huge panoply of myths over a hectare or so of Canaanite/Jebusite soil - and each entertains unhistorical tales that stretch the imagination. To challenge the third in the series, while tacitly endorsing the equally oneiric beliefs of the two religions of which Islam was the successor faith, is to insinuate that the premises of Judaism (and Christianity) in this regard are hunky-dory, but later constructions of the same mythopoetic nature are untenable, this is just infantile bigotry, no more sophisticated than the game I played at 5-6 with my elder brother, outside a toyshop, called 'I bar that'. I.e. whatever caught your eye was yours if you shouted 'I bar that' before your rival did. We started with a toy, then that bid was trumped by my brother 'barring' the shelf on which it was poised, and then I barred the window display, only to have my brother 'bar' the shop front. So I barred the shop premises, and he barred the township, I barred the country, he barred the earth, and I barred the universe. A Cain and Abel metaphorical spiral, which, like the I/P conflict, ended by him flattening me with a punch on the nose. In short, this petulantly sectarian bickering on who has prior rights is fatuously inane and unbefitting adults. There, another fucken Sunday sermon from yours truly.Nishidani (talk) 14:30, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
- The word Masjid (Arabic: مَـسْـجِـد) literally means "Place of Prostration", not necessarily a building that is used by Muslims for worship, so there is a difference between the building that came after Muhammad's lifetime, and the concept of Al-Masjid al-Aqṣā (Arabic: ٱلْـمَـسْـجِـد الْأَقْـصَى, "The Farthest Place-of-Prostration"), and in the section below, something similar to this was said. Leo1pard (talk) 03:48, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
Page views
Leo1pard (talk) 18:10, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
Region
Shaam (Arabic: الـشَّـام, Ash-Shâm) is a region that includes the modern countries of Syria and Lebanon, and the land of Palestine.[1][2] Leo1pard (talk) 18:10, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
References
- ^ Article "AL-SHĀM" by C.E. Bosworth, Encyclopaedia of Islam, Volume 9 (1997), page 261.
- ^ Salibi, K. S. (2003). A House of Many Mansions: The History of Lebanon Reconsidered. I.B.Tauris. pp. 61–62. ISBN 978-1-86064-912-7.
To the Arabs, this same territory, which the Romans considered Arabian, formed part of what they called Bilad al-Sham, which was their own name for Syria. From the classical perspective however Syria, including Palestine, formed no more than the western fringes of what was reckoned to be Arabia between the first line of cities and the coast. Since there is no clear dividing line between what are called today the Syrian and Arabian deserts, which actually form one stretch of arid tableland, the classical concept of what actually constituted Syria had more to its credit geographically than the vaguer Arab concept of Syria as Bilad al-Sham. Under the Romans, there was actually a province of Syria, with its capital at Antioch, which carried the name of the territory. Otherwise, down the centuries, Syria like Arabia and Mesopotamia was no more than a geographic expression. In Islamic times, the Arab geographers used the name arabicized as Suriyah, to denote one special region of Bilad al-Sham, which was the middle section of the valley of the Orontes river, in the vicinity of the towns of Homs and Hama. They also noted that it was an old name for the whole of Bilad al-Sham which had gone out of use. As a geographic expression, however, the name Syria survived in its original classical sense in Byzantine and Western European usage, and also in the Syriac literature of some of the Eastern Christian churches, from which it occasionally found its way into Christian Arabic usage. It was only in the nineteenth century that the use of the name was revived in its modern Arabic form, frequently as Suriyya rather than the older Suriyah, to denote the whole of Bilad al-Sham: first of all in the Christian Arabic literature of the period, and under the influence of Western Europe. By the end of that century it had already replaced the name of Bilad al-Sham even in Muslim Arabic usage.
Name of article, and etymology & definitions sections
Per: Y. Reiter (26 May 2008). Jerusalem and Its Role in Islamic Solidarity. Springer. pp. 22–23. ISBN 978-0-230-61271-6.
...Al Aqsa mosque is the common Arab name for the entire Temple Mount, not just this mosque.
Onceinawhile (talk) 22:07, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
- Only in very modern sources - mainly in Arabic and with a certain POV.Icewhiz (talk) 10:07, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
- Wrong. Both the minimal and maximal uses have ancient pedigrees. Generally there is a distinction between the masjid (usually translated into English as "mosque"), which is the entire compound, and the jami, which is the building at the southern end. The "farthest mosque" in the Quran is interpreted almost universally as the entire compound (perhaps in recognition of the fact that the date given for the prophet's night journey was before the jami was built). Muqaddasi and some other medieval writers such as al-Wasati (before 1019), used masjid for the entire compound and other words for the building. All this discussed with sources in Guy le Strange's book, around page 96, and in other places. Of course modern usage is suffused with modern politics but Arabs don't have a monopoly on that. Zerotalk 12:48, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
- Agree with Zero. This needs to be fixed. The local muslim population simply do not use the term "Haram ash-Sharif" to refer to the compound in Jerusalem; they call the whole thing Al Aqsa.
- Per Reiter above, the "modern sources" Icewhiz is referring to are actually the attempt to use the term "Haram ash-Sharif" which never caught on.
- Onceinawhile (talk) 20:45, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
- The local population, Muslim or otherwise, is irrelevant. WP:COMMONNAME states that we base our titles on
independent, reliable English-language sources
, not on what I presume is the usage of some Arabic speakers. If reliable sources mention something different then we can include that in the article. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 22:16, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
- The local population, Muslim or otherwise, is irrelevant. WP:COMMONNAME states that we base our titles on
- Wrong. Both the minimal and maximal uses have ancient pedigrees. Generally there is a distinction between the masjid (usually translated into English as "mosque"), which is the entire compound, and the jami, which is the building at the southern end. The "farthest mosque" in the Quran is interpreted almost universally as the entire compound (perhaps in recognition of the fact that the date given for the prophet's night journey was before the jami was built). Muqaddasi and some other medieval writers such as al-Wasati (before 1019), used masjid for the entire compound and other words for the building. All this discussed with sources in Guy le Strange's book, around page 96, and in other places. Of course modern usage is suffused with modern politics but Arabs don't have a monopoly on that. Zerotalk 12:48, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
- What we need to do here is to decide what the article is about and what the article name should be. The history of the name and its varied meanings can be explained inside the article with sources. Apparently similar terminological confusions exist in Mecca and Medina. Zerotalk 03:37, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
- It would seem to me that this article is about the silver domed mosque - Al-Aqsa. Dome of the Rock is about the golden dome, Islamic Museum, Jerusalem is about the museum on the mount, Fountain of Qayt Bay is on one of the fountains, and..., and Temple Mount is about the entire compound. This seems to be a rather logical division.Icewhiz (talk) 05:51, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Do you think Al-Aqsa should redirect here or to Temple Mount? Onceinawhile (talk) 09:24, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
- Obviously here. The alternative would be a disambig (to both) - which I don't think is better. Modern Arabic usage might merit a "for" note at the top.Icewhiz (talk) 10:39, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
- I just noticed that there is already al-Aqsa (disambiguation) and Aqsa Mosque. Onceinawhile (talk) 10:44, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
- Take a look at:
- Organizations
- al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades - their logo is the Dome of the Rock
- Jund al-Aqsa - also Dome of the Rock
- Al-Aqsa TV - also their logo is the Dome of the Rock
- Events
- Al-Aqsa Intifada (Second Intifada), named because of Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount
- Al Aqsa Massacre - took place at the Temple Mount more broadly
- I can't find any organization or event using the name "Al Aqsa" that is referring to the subject of this article. Something is wrong here. Onceinawhile (talk) 10:46, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
- I wouldn't use symbology (and yes - the dome of the rock is a national/islamist symbol in Israel the PA - an interesting phenomena are mosques patterned after the dome of the rock (which is actually not a mosque itself) - appearing through Israel and the PA since circa the 90s (mostly built, I believe by the Islamic movement (Israel) /Hamas (PA))) for the common name. I don't think this page being a DAG would be an improvement.Icewhiz (talk) 12:28, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
- I just noticed that there is already al-Aqsa (disambiguation) and Aqsa Mosque. Onceinawhile (talk) 10:44, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
- What I would like to say here is that though the term Ḥaram (Arabic: حَـرَم) can refer to Al-Aqsa Mosque, it can also refer to Al-Haram Mosque in Mecca,[1] and we should bear in mind that the Temple Mount, which is referred to as al-Ḥaram ash-Sharīf (Arabic: ٱلْـحَـرَم الـشَّـرِيـف), is not just significant for Muslims, but also for Christians and Jews, so to refer to the whole ḥaram (Arabic: حَـرَم, complex or sanctuary) as a 'mosque' might be controversial. Leo1pard (talk) 13:33, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
References
- ^ Mustafa Abu Sway, The Holy Land, Jerusalem and Al-Aqsa Mosque in the Qur’an, Sunnah and other Islamic Literary Source (PDF), Central Conference of American Rabbis, archived from the original (PDF) on 2011-07-28
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Al Aqsa Compound
The phrase Al Aqsa Compound is used frequently by news and scholarly works. An easy solution would be to use that as an alternative name in the first sentence at Temple Mount, then have Al Aqsa as a disambiguation between the Compound and the Mosque. Some illustrative sources below:
Scholars
- "This article deals with the employment of religious symbols for national identities and national narratives by using the sacred compound in Jerusalem (The Temple Mount/al-Aqsa) as a case study. The narrative of The Holy Land involves three concentric circles, each encompassing the other, with each side having its own names for each circle. These are: Palestine/Eretz Israel (i.e., the Land of Israel); Jerusalem/al-Quds and finally The Temple Mount/al-Aqsa compound...Within the struggle over public awareness of Jerusalem’s importance, one particular site is at the eye of the storm—the Temple Mount and its Western Wall—the Jewish Kotel—or, in Muslim terminology, the al-Aqsa compound (alternatively: al-Haram al-Sharif) including the al-Buraq Wall... “Al-Aqsa” for the Palestinian-Arab-Muslim side is not merely a mosque mentioned in the Qur’an within the context of the Prophet Muhammad’s miraculous Night Journey to al-Aqsa which, according to tradition, concluded with his ascension to heaven (and prayer with all of the prophets and the Jewish and Christian religious figures who preceded him); rather, it also constitutes a unique symbol of identity, one around which various political objectives may be formulated, plans of action drawn up and masses mobilized for their realization."
Narratives of Jerusalem and its Sacred Compound, Israel Studies 18(2):115-132 · July 2013
- "This article deals with the employment of religious symbols for national identities and national narratives by using the sacred compound in Jerusalem (The Temple Mount/al-Aqsa) as a case study. The narrative of The Holy Land involves three concentric circles, each encompassing the other, with each side having its own names for each circle. These are: Palestine/Eretz Israel (i.e., the Land of Israel); Jerusalem/al-Quds and finally The Temple Mount/al-Aqsa compound...Within the struggle over public awareness of Jerusalem’s importance, one particular site is at the eye of the storm—the Temple Mount and its Western Wall—the Jewish Kotel—or, in Muslim terminology, the al-Aqsa compound (alternatively: al-Haram al-Sharif) including the al-Buraq Wall... “Al-Aqsa” for the Palestinian-Arab-Muslim side is not merely a mosque mentioned in the Qur’an within the context of the Prophet Muhammad’s miraculous Night Journey to al-Aqsa which, according to tradition, concluded with his ascension to heaven (and prayer with all of the prophets and the Jewish and Christian religious figures who preceded him); rather, it also constitutes a unique symbol of identity, one around which various political objectives may be formulated, plans of action drawn up and masses mobilized for their realization."
2) Annika Björkdahl and Susanne Buckley-Zistel
- "The site is known in Arabic as Haram al-Sharif – the Noble Sanctuary – and colloquially as the Haram or the al-Aqsa compound; while in Hebrew, it is called Har HaBeit – the Temple Mount."
Annika Björkdahl; Susanne Buckley-Zistel (1 May 2016). Spatialising Peace and Conflict: Mapping the Production of Places, Sites and Scales of Violence. Palgrave Macmillan UK. pp. 243–. ISBN 978-1-137-55048-4.
- "The site is known in Arabic as Haram al-Sharif – the Noble Sanctuary – and colloquially as the Haram or the al-Aqsa compound; while in Hebrew, it is called Har HaBeit – the Temple Mount."
3) Mahdi Abdul Hadi:
- "Al-Aqsa Mosque, also referred to as Al-Haram Ash-Sharif (the Noble Sanctuary), comprises the entire area within the compound walls (a total area of 144,000 m2) - including all the mosques, prayer rooms, buildings, platforms and open courtyards located above or under the grounds - and exceeds 200 historical monuments pertaining to various Islamic eras. According to Islamic creed and jurisprudence, all these buildings and courtyards enjoy the same degree of sacredness since they are built on Al-Aqsa’s holy grounds. This sacredness is not exclusive to the physical structures allocated for prayer, like the Dome of the Rock or Al-Qibly Mosque (the mosque with the large silver dome)"
Mahdi Abdul Hadi Palestinian Academic Society for the Study of International Affairs - "Many people believe that the mosque depicted is called the Al-Aqsa; however, a visit to one of Palestine's most eminent intellectuals, Mahdi F. Abdul Hadi, clarified the issue. Hadi is chairman of the Palestinian Academic Society for the Study of International Affairs, based in East Jerusalem. His offices are a treasure trove of old photographs, documents, and symbols. He was kind enough to spend several hours with me. He spread out maps of Jerusalem's Old City on a huge desk and homed in on the Al-Aqsa compound, which sits above the Western Wall. “The mosque in the Al- Aqsa [Brigades] flag is the Dome of the Rock. Everyone takes it for granted that it is the Al-Aqsa mosque, but no, the whole compound is Al-Aqsa, and on it are two mosques, the Qibla mosque and the Dome of the Rock, and on the flags of both Al-Aqsa Brigades and the Qassam Brigades, it is the Dome of the Rock shown,” he said."
Tim Marshall (4 July 2017). A Flag Worth Dying For: The Power and Politics of National Symbols. Simon and Schuster. pp. 151–. ISBN 978-1-5011-6833-8.
- "Al-Aqsa Mosque, also referred to as Al-Haram Ash-Sharif (the Noble Sanctuary), comprises the entire area within the compound walls (a total area of 144,000 m2) - including all the mosques, prayer rooms, buildings, platforms and open courtyards located above or under the grounds - and exceeds 200 historical monuments pertaining to various Islamic eras. According to Islamic creed and jurisprudence, all these buildings and courtyards enjoy the same degree of sacredness since they are built on Al-Aqsa’s holy grounds. This sacredness is not exclusive to the physical structures allocated for prayer, like the Dome of the Rock or Al-Qibly Mosque (the mosque with the large silver dome)"
Media
1) The Daily Telegraph: "Clashes broke out inside the al-Aqsa compound" (with photo of Dome of the Rock) [1]
2) USA Today: "A view of the Al-Aqsa compound (Temple Mount) in Jerusalem's Old City" [2]
3) Al Jazeera: "Israeli Deputy Minister Tzipi Hotovely referred to the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound as "the centre of Israeli sovereignty, the capital of Israel"... In response, Netanyahu's office later that night put out a statement saying that "non-Muslims visit the Temple Mount [Al-Aqsa compound]" but are not permitted to pray there."" [3]
Onceinawhile (talk) 14:44, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
- I think that Al-Aqsa Compound could be used as an alternative name for the Temple Mount, without necessarily renaming the article, partly considering that Al-Aqṣā (Arabic: ٱلْاَقْـصَى) is an Arabic phrase, that we do have a Hebrew name for the ḥaram, that is Har Ha-Báyiṫ (Hebrew: הַר הַבַּיִת, "Mount of the House [of God, i.e. the Temple]", which can translate in Arabic as Jabal Al-Bayṫ (Arabic: جَـبَـل الْـبَـيْـت)), and that the English phrase "Temple Mount" is therefore WP:neutral between the different definitions of the Arabic and Hebrew names. Leo1pard (talk) 15:27, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
- OK. I have also removed the term "also known as Al-Aqṣā (Arabic: اَلْاَقْـصَى) and Bayṫ al-Maqdis (Arabic: بَـيْـت الْـمَـقْـدِس)" from the lead for this reason. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:43, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
- I have made the edit proposed at Temple Mount, edited the disambiguation page, and fixed the redirects to they go to the disambiguation.
- What now needs to be fixed is the "definitions" section.
- Onceinawhile (talk) 23:00, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
- I have tidied up the definitions section. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:30, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
Lonely Planet travel guide as a reliable source concerning the existence of the Second Temple? Seriously?
Is somebody seriously using the Lonely Planet travel guide[4] as a reliable source concerning the existence of the Second Temple? Can no better source be found? Isn't no source better than a crappy source? — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:20, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
- Travel guides tend to be terrible sources for history, with a small number of exceptions written by historical experts (such as Jerome Murphy-O'Connor's "The Holy Land"). Although LPG is a better than average guide for tourists, it is far below the bar for history. I removed it. Zerotalk 11:37, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 June 2018
Change the following lines:
The rectangular al-Aqsa Mosque and its precincts are 144,000 square meters (1,550,000 sq ft), although the mosque itself is about 35,000 square meters (380,000 sq ft) and could hold up to 5,000 worshipers.[1] It is 83 m (272 ft) long, 56 m (184 ft) wide.[1] Unlike the Dome of the Rock, which reflects classical Byzantine architecture, the Al-Aqsa Mosque is characteristic of early Islamic architecture.[2]
To:
The rectangular al-Aqsa Mosque and its precincts are 144,000 square meters (1,550,000 sq ft), although the mosque itself is about 4,650 square meters (50,100 sq ft) and could hold up to 5,000 worshipers.[1] It is 83 m (272 ft) long, 56 m (184 ft) wide.[1] Unlike the Dome of the Rock, which reflects classical Byzantine architecture, the Al-Aqsa Mosque is characteristic of early Islamic architecture.[3]
Justification:
As written the area is inconsistent with the dimensions. Other sources, such as from the Turkish government http://www.tika.gov.tr/upload/2016/INGILIZCE%20SITE%20ESERLER/TANITIM%20BRO%C5%9E%C3%9CRLER%C4%B0/PDF/Haram-Ash-sharief-Final-En_2013.pdf page 10) have similar dimensions (e.g. 80x55m). Alpheus100 (talk) 18:54, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
References
- Done. The cited source states 50,000 sqft, so I went with that measurement and converted back to sqm from there. For the record, it looks like this information has been incorrect in the article since it was added almost ten years ago. The original editor who added this information mistakenly read the source as 50,000 square meters, then shortly thereafter did some fractional conversion that left it at 0.035 square kilometers, and eventually changed to 35,000 square meters, where it stayed until today. Thanks for finding this and pointing it out! ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 15:27, 4 July 2018 (UTC)