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:::::So what, precisely, does it mean, then? Anything anyone disagrees with? Read the talk page archives to gain a better understanding of the intent and limitations of those phrases. [[User:Jclemens|Jclemens]] ([[User talk:Jclemens|talk]]) 06:17, 22 April 2010 (UTC) |
:::::So what, precisely, does it mean, then? Anything anyone disagrees with? Read the talk page archives to gain a better understanding of the intent and limitations of those phrases. [[User:Jclemens|Jclemens]] ([[User talk:Jclemens|talk]]) 06:17, 22 April 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::Contentious material that is poorly sourced should be removed. That's what it says in plain english. It also says to be conservative in sourcing- especially with regard to a subjects privacy. [[User:^^James^^|^^James^^]] ([[User talk:^^James^^|talk]]) 06:48, 22 April 2010 (UTC) |
:::::Contentious material that is poorly sourced should be removed. That's what it says in plain english. It also says to be conservative in sourcing- especially with regard to a subjects privacy. [[User:^^James^^|^^James^^]] ([[User talk:^^James^^|talk]]) 06:48, 22 April 2010 (UTC) |
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::::::Except that her name is not in contention: Two RS use Dorothy, zero use anything else. No disagreement between sources? No contention. Contentious doesn't mean, and hasn't ever meant, "editors might disagree with it". [[User:Jclemens|Jclemens]] ([[User talk:Jclemens|talk]]) 07:00, 22 April 2010 (UTC) |
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As I said before, there appear to be two views. But citing [[WP:NPF]] for a person who is hardly known other than via writing is hardly "cherry-picking", is it? And no more of the "bullying": you were the one who introduced that tone here, [[User:Jclemens]]. I don't see why I should accept the comment ''A person's name is not "material about the person" That's covered elsewhere in BLP'' on your say-so. [[User:Charles Matthews|Charles Matthews]] ([[User talk:Charles Matthews|talk]]) 21:25, 21 April 2010 (UTC) |
As I said before, there appear to be two views. But citing [[WP:NPF]] for a person who is hardly known other than via writing is hardly "cherry-picking", is it? And no more of the "bullying": you were the one who introduced that tone here, [[User:Jclemens]]. I don't see why I should accept the comment ''A person's name is not "material about the person" That's covered elsewhere in BLP'' on your say-so. [[User:Charles Matthews|Charles Matthews]] ([[User talk:Charles Matthews|talk]]) 21:25, 21 April 2010 (UTC) |
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:By all means, don't take my say so: read all of [[WP:BLP]]. |
:By all means, don't take my say so: read all of [[WP:BLP]]. |
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More Sources
She has appeared on TV stations such as WUFO in Washington, D.C. and Edge Media Television in the UK. It should probably be mentioned that she regularly appears on "The X-Zone Radio Show". Should the article mention sales? I think she has sold ~50,000 copies of her books. Not sure how to confirm that. What about websites? Her work regularly appears on a website that receives ~10 million hits per month for example (rense.com). She has also written articles and given interviews for numerous magazines and websites, although I think most are not exactly mainstream. I will look into that, but she is not exactly a mainstream author either. How do most articles deal with niche topics that don't have much mainstream attention? ^^James^^ (talk) 11:58, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
- Both Amazon and B&N provide a way for somebody to roughly estimate total sales of a book. (Methodology is disputed, but it more or less accurate.) There is an extremely expensive publication that provides "verified" sales of books through the "normal" book publishing channels. Book sales are the only numbers that might count for anything. jonathon (talk) 05:49, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Bone-Box No Proof of Jesus This article was published in Secular Nation magazine. I don't think there's a web link, I'll try to find out what issue. ^^James^^ (talk) 03:07, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Acharya's Response
I appreciate your efforts and you contacting me for my assistance in providing sources and citations for my work. (I guess I really need a Curriculum Vitae, which I will probably make out of this missive eventually.)
Credentials
Books
Two of my books were published by Adventures Unlimited Publishing, owned by David Hatcher Childress:
The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold
Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled
David Hatcher Childress himself has a Wiki page, as does his company.
I have my own publishing company, Stellar House Publishing, under which I published my book Who was Jesus? Fingerprints of the Christ:
My book The Christ Conspiracy has been translated into Spanish and Korean, has sold tens of thousands of copies, and was one of the sources for the hit internet movie "Zeitgeist," which also has a Wiki page. So far, ZG has been viewed at least 15 million times in dozens of languages around the world. On this page you will see a "Special thanks" to me:
The citations from my work are here:
I have written an ebook for the movie called "The Companion Guide to ZEITGEIST, Part 1," which can be found linked to the ZG site here:
Contributors to My Books
The "Preface" to The Christ Conspiracy was written by Kenn Thomas, who also has a Wiki page.
The "Foreword" to Suns of God was written by Dr. W. Sumner Davis, who also has a Wiki page.
The "Foreword" to my book Who Was Jesus? was written by Jesus Seminar fellow Dr. Robert M. Price, who also has a Wiki page.
Book Reviews
The Christ Conspiracy was reviewed in the book You Are Being Lied To by the Disinfo company, which has a Wiki page:
The author of The Jesus Puzzle, Earl Doherty, who also has a Wiki page, reviewed my book The Christ Conspiracy:
Doherty mentions me in his review of Price's book Deconstructing Jesus:
Christ Con was also reviewed by "Nexus" magazine, which has a Wiki page:
Alex Burns of Disinfo wrote a review of Christ Con as well:
A review of Suns of God has also appeared in Nexus magazine:
And in "Paranoia" magazine, which also has a Wiki page:
And another review of SOG appears here:
My book Who Was Jesus? was featured on the website HollywoodJesus.com, owned by Pastor David Bruce:
A review of Suns of God by Dr. Robert M. Price appears on my website here:
This review was published in Price's "Journal for Higher Criticism," vol. 13.
Radio Appearances
I have appeared on the radio show of Alan Colmes, of Fox's Hannity & Colmes, who has a Wiki page.
I have appeared several times on Jeff Rense's show, who also has a Wiki page.
I also appeared on a podcast with TV personality John Daly, who used to host "Real TV" as well as a show on HGTV:
John also has a Wiki page:
Robert Price and I have also appeared on radio together, on Reg Finley's "Infidel Guy Show." Reginald Finley also has a Wikipedia page.
I have also appeared on many other radio programs over the years - the list can be found here:
The list includes several appearances on Rob McConnell's "X-Zone" radio show, which also has a Wiki page.
Articles in Books
One of my articles was published in the book Underground!: The Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations:
Another of my articles was published in The New Conspiracy Reader:
And another in the book Wake Up Down There!:
I also wrote the foreword to the AUP edition of Kersey Graves's World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors:
Kersey Graves has a Wiki article.
Magazine Articles
A three-part article of mine was published in the Atheist Alliance International's magazine "Secular Nation." My contact there is August Berkshire.
Atheist Alliance International has a Wiki page.
My work has also been published in "Steamshovel Press," which has its own Wiki article.
My work has also been featured on a number of occasions in Paranoia magazine.
An interview of me in Spanish was included in a magazine "Más Allá" (12/2005):
"New Archaeology Review" also published a three-part article of mine:
Dr. Price published one of my articles in his Journal, vol. 13.
Public Appearances
In November 2007, I was a panel speaker at the Artivist Film Festival in Hollywood, CA, which presented ZEITGEIST with the "Best Feature Documentary" award.
I have also addressed audiences at colleges and elsewhere concerning "Zeitgeist."
I am also slated to be a speaker at next year's "Conspiracy Conference" or "Con Con" by Brian Hall.
I have addressed the Art Bell Fan Club in San Diego and have also appeared at conferences for AUP.
I have been interviewed on camera for various documentary projects.
Internet Interviews
One published on the Paranoia website:
I have also been interviewed on the blog of "Infidelis Maximus":
The Progressive Observer interviewed me here:
An interview in Spanish by Cristobal Cobo appears here:
Websites
My online articles are linked to from thousands of pages and receive hundreds of thousands of hits per month, including from Rense.com, which receives 10 million hits a month.
My response to Richard Carrier's article about Luxor is linked to here:
The response itself is here:
Richard Carrier's website "Internet Infidels" has also linked to my article "Origins of Christianity" for several years:
and here:
Here's a link from Infidels.org to my review of Earl Doherty's The Jesus Puzzle:
Peter Kirby of "Early Christian Writings" has linked to one of my articles:
[36] (ED: wayback link)
(I believe Kirby is a frequent Wiki editor.)
I am also cited on the Religious Tolerance website:
Danish Sanskrit and Buddhist scholar Dr. Christian Lindtner links to my site:
(Lindtner is cite several times on Wiki.)
Islam Watch regular links to my articles and blog posts:
David Icke, who also has a Wiki page, has posted my work on his website:
Atheist comedian Pat Condell, who also has a Wiki page, has named my book The Christ Conspiracy in his top favorites on his MySpace page.
Kenn Humphreys cites and links to my work:
Humphreys is cited in several places on Wiki.
Red Ice Creations has linked to several of my articles:
My work is also being discussed in a number of forums on the internet, including IIDB or Internet Infidels, which also has a Wiki page; the Danielle forum, which belongs to Brian Flemming, who also has a Wiki page; and the forum of James Randi, who also has a Wiki page; the forums of Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris, both of whom also have Wiki pages.
I am also linked to from Brian Flemming's "The God Movie" website:
Famous Italian atheist Luigi Cascioli, who also has a Wiki page, links to my site:
Videos
Consciousness Media Network has a free online video of me:
[49] (registration required)
My videos can be found here:
One of my videos has over 100,000 views:
My videos have been featured on WUFO TV in Washington, DC, which was voted this year the best TV station of its kind:
My videos have also been featured quite recently on Edge Media TV in the UK:
Adventures Unlimited also offers a DVD of my Suns of God presentation:
Mentions in Books
My work was cited in The Pagan Christ by Canadian theologian Tom Harpur, who also has a Wiki page. Harpur was the subject of a documentary as well:
My work was also cited in David Icke's Children of the Matrix.
My book Suns of God was also mentioned by Dr. Robert Price in his book The Pre-Nicene New Testament.
Note the following quote on this Wiki User page, under the section "Mythography of Christ":
"Acharya S is currently the most widely read proponent of a non historical pure pagan Jesus. [56]
On a different but related page, under "Jesus as ahistorical myth":
"Acharya S is probably the most popular proponent of this view among mainstream readers." [57]
Here are other relevant User pages mentioning or linking to my work:
Notice on this page concerning "India" the amount of articles for deletion, including mine: [60]
It is also on this page, concerning the "Team/Krishnaism":
And on this one for "Team/Vishnaism":
Critical Sources
My work was criticized by evangelist author Mike Licona, who also has a Wiki page:
Another notorious internet evangelist who has written quite a bit about my work is James Patrick Holding, who apparently does not have a Wiki article. Holding has assailed me in dozens of articles over the past decade:
Holding has also included me in his book Shattering the Christ Myth. James Hannam who calls himself "The Venerable Bede" also links to me:
"The Fortean Times" also published a review of The Christ Conspiracy around 2000, by David Barrett, who has since brought me up a couple of times in that magazine, including asking Dr. Bart Ehrman about me.
Ehrman, who also has a Wiki page, has apparently mentioned me on a couple of occasions. The Fortean Times also has a Wiki page.
Kitfontaine (talk) 02:16, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Beware of Defamation of religion
Rook's intellectually dishonest blog does *NOT* belong here
The blog, "Problems with Acharya S: A Brief Review" by Rook Hawkins does *NOT* belong in the Acharya wiki article. Rook claims to be a "historian and ancient text expert" meanwhile, has no qualifications or credentials in any field. He's only 25 with a mere high school education. He is not notable as he currently has no published books. His only notability is his connection with the RRS since they got on the news a few years ago. Now, he thinks he can debunk scholars and their decades of work Rook has never studied with his intellectually dishonest blogs.
And, if you read the comments in the blog you will find out that Rook has never read Acharya's book "Suns of God" which is what his "REVIEW" is supposed to be about.
His 1-4 points are taken directly from Acharya's advert/promo page for "Suns of God" [67] :
1. Comparing Jesus to Krishna/Buddha 2. Claiming the Moses/Jesus stories are Midrash based on the Bhagavad Gita 3. Claiming that both Julius Caesar and Plato were both said to be born of virgins and sons of God 4. Claiming ALL Caesars were deified
In Rook's diatribe against Acharya, take notice that he doesn't cite anything from Acharya at all. No page numbers, no books, no websites or any online articles at all. Rook can't cite anything by Acharya because he hasn't studied her works. Which creates the foundational flaw with his blog - it's based on false assumptions, ignorance, bias, intellectual dishonesty, sloppy research & poor scholarship. I'd also simply like to point out that this blog by Rook began with insults, derogatory comments & name-calling in the VERY FIRST SENTENCE.
Rook is clearly dishonest here but seems to appeal to people who are too lazy to do their own research. And on top of that, It seems that Rook gets his false assumptions about Acharya from his hero Richard Carrier who also hasn't read Acharya's work. So Rook is RELYING on R. Carrier & doesn't go to the source - hows that for "sloppy scholarship"? Rook's blog is an embarrassment to freethinkers & mythicists and especially himself for dishonestly attempting to smear a great mythicist like this.
Only much later in the blog after pressure to provide citations did Rook cite a source - Acharya's online promotional page for her book "Suns of God" even though he has never actually read the book (Rook even inaccurately titles her book as "Sons of God" - which gives us another clue.
Rook's blog is nothing less than a smear campaign designed to keep others from reading her work for themselves. An apology to Acharya from Rook is in order for his severe intellectual dishonesty.
Rook and the RRS seem to have a pattern of this intellectual dishonesty:
If you're going to provide criticism at least use honest sources who have actually studied the works of D.M. Murdock aka Acharya S. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.15.226.224 (talk) 02:29, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- I find it rather ironic that someone is defending Acharya S who claims to be a "historian and ancient text expert" from someone else who also, without academic qualifications, claims to be a "historian and ancient text expert." Interesting rant. --Ari89 (talk) 06:12, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Notability of Acharya S
If Acharya S / D.M. Murdock isn't notable then, what is this:
"On Thursday, July 31, 2008, an article appeared in the newspaper South Shields, England, called The Shields Gazette that highlighted my book The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold.
The Shields Gazette apparently has a circulation of about 100,000 throughout the South Shields area in northeast England."
Now, this is significant given the fact that the book is nearly a decade old and having articles written about it. And occasionally ranks in the top 10,000 at Amazon etc. So do all of her other books too.
[71] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.15.226.206 (talk) 19:19, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Acharya S has been featured in a new documentary entitled, "God in the Box." Enjoy an interesting video clip of "Acharya S" at 2:05 through 2:45: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRRooPQolJ8
This documentary could turn out to be very interesting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.15.226.196 (talk) 18:23, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
RS that she has a "large following" [72] jbolden1517Talk
WP:V
Let me just point out Wikipedia:V#Self-published_and_questionable_sources_as_sources_on_themselves Murdock is automatically a reliable source about her own theories or her own life. We simply summarize her books and comments about her. In other wikipedia's voice only asserts" Acharya said X, and Y responded with Z". We don't need any academic works that X is in fact true. jbolden1517Talk 22:43, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I agree. Consensus was against me when I tried arguing that--the counterargument was that WP:V might be satisfied, but WP:N was not. Jclemens (talk) 22:46, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- OK, that was my read of the deletion debate. So we can focus on WP:N. jbolden1517Talk 22:54, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Ready for mainspace?
Nexus magazine is available in print. That meets the print review criteria. I think the evidence on this list of hers is overwhelming. You have her being reviewed by about a dozen authors. A few magazines. Frankly I'd just as soon move your article back in place. It now has reliable sources for the claims in it and she has 66 citations to prove notability. jbolden1517Talk 23:11, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, there's another source someone gave me that I have yet to put in, that should settle it. See User_talk:Jclemens/Archive_2#secondary_source_for_Acharya_S for details. I don't see any compelling reason to have a YouTube link, though, per WP:EL#NO Jclemens (talk) 01:07, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
- Just so you have the ref:
- In search of Jesus: insider and outsider images
- By Clinton Bennett
- ISBN 0826449166, 9780826449160
- starting on page 208
- So it is your article. You want to do the move?
- As for the video I don't see the problem. Virtually all browsers have flash.
- jbolden1517Talk 02:00, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
Listed Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2009_March_10#Acharya_S jbolden1517Talk 06:17, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
Writings of Acharya S
Well what do you think about the Writings of D.M. Murdock idea? I want to get this article back up. That has the advantage of making her stalker kind of things completely off topic. It also gets rid of the issue of notability for her (which is so/so) vs. her books (which are notable). The page is on your home page, so....? BTW why didn't you vote? jbolden1517Talk 21:48, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry, have been busy IRL... I commented once, then forgot to watchlist the debate. Writings sounds like a good idea, since I really don't care about Murdock's personal life at all, but want to see notable fringe religious ideas fairly represented. Never read any of her stuff personally, I just don't like to see real positions deleted, even unpopular ones. Jclemens (talk) 22:34, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Requested Move
Why is this page named "Writings of D.M. Murdock", rather than simply "D.M. Murdock" or "Acharaya S"? On Wikipedia, authors generally have their own pages, which include their biographies and a list of their works. Furthermore, her background, education, and other such information should be included, as it is entirely relevant to her writing. I'm adding the move template to the page. —GodhevalT C H 19:52, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
- Previous iterations of this page that were at Acharya S were deleted on the basis of there being no independent, RS'ed documentation for Murdock's life. The complaint essentially said that nothing was WP:V about her except the writings themselves. Jclemens (talk) 20:09, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
- Godheval. You are absolutely right that this treatment is abnormal. But I have to agree with Jclemens. Until we have good quality RSes on Murdock's life we have to stick with this compromise proposal (see Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2009_March_10#Acharya_S). Besides, as you can see from the to-do list there is plenty of work that can be done on this article without going into her biography. Once we have a great article, on her writings I think putting in an analysis of her background makes sense but right now we don't have an analysis of her writings so what purpose does the biography serve? jbolden1517Talk 16:58, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
the article should still be moved to D.M. Murdock, even if it discusses only the works of this author. We have many articles titled "$AUTHOR" which discuss exclusively the "writings of $AUTHOR". The question is whether there is enough notability for an article here, regerdless of its title. As far as I can see, this is all about "Christ myth" literature and could easily be covered in the "literature" section of that article. --dab (𒁳) 16:20, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
- What seems to be the consensus on AFD... is that her literature is notable but her person is not. Yes it is abnormal, but it is a compromise that seems to work. Find some good citations on Murdock the person / biography and we can do the move. As far as Christ myth, my goal would be a much longer article than what would be appropriate there. She has many many unique theories, and takes on gospel origins. Astro-theology plays no role in most of the Christ myth theories but is central to her thinking. Take a look at the to-do list and tell me if you think that could all fit in Christ myth. jbolden1517Talk 16:28, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Notes
- Christ in egypt review: http://whatisspiritual.blogspot.com/2009/05/horus-in-egypt-by-dm-murdock.html
pet peeve fixed
i rewrote the lead sentence to conform with the title of the article. this should not be controversial. i think the bolded name in the header should match the article. but i wont revert if its changed, even though i dont see any reason to. Mercurywoodrose (talk) 16:01, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
Licona References
I don't think the article needs four different references to the Licona review, especially since they are secondary, and there are no original reliable sources for those references. I know for a fact that Bryant has never read her work and has never reviewed her work, and I strongly suspect the same for the other two authors mentioned. Thus the passage in contention is misleading. I'm sure Bryant would not want Wikipedia to misrepresent his views. Wiki policy is pretty clear on this subject: Quotations should be cited to the original source if possible; when secondary sources are used, those that cite the original source should be preferred over those that don't. Partisan secondary sources should be viewed with suspicion if they lack neutral corroboration.^^James^^ (talk) 02:28, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Move mess
User:Rpsugar apparently decided recently that this article was not appropriately named, and began moving it through various names, eventually taking it to "ACHARYA S" (in all caps), which does not match Wikipedia naming guidelines. I've moved it to the proper capitalization, over the old redirect, and I fixed the string of double redirects that the multiple moves left behind. There was also a talk page already in place for this page, which I've moved to Talk:Acharya S/History. That talk page discusses the previous deletion of the article that was under this name in the past. The name this was at prior to the start of the moves, Writings of D.M. Murdock, was a revival of that old article with a different name, as part of a compromise discussed on this page above.
Personally, I do not care whether the article is named "Acharya S" or "Writings of D.M. Murdock" or any of the other choices that Rpsugar went through (excepting the all-caps version that violated WP:NAME), and the old compromise is nine months old and may not be necessary any longer. However, if anyone objects to the return to the "Acharya S" name, they are welcome to say so here. I will gladly move the article to whatever name is preferred by consensus, or if you consider me "involved" since I have edited content on this page, you can obtain review from a different administrator by posting a move request at Wikipedia:Requested moves. --RL0919 (talk) 21:44, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
Quoting Acharya S's website
As my edits indicate, I have problems with the inclusion of biographical information from this self-published site. At least they should be verbally flagged as "According to her own site ...". Allusion to WP:SELFPUB is all very well, but the authenticity of that information has indeed been called into question before; and the issue of whether the claims are "self-serving" has indeed been brought up. There is a fundamental problem with the pseudonym, too. There is a real lack of verifiability of any biographical information. I think it better for Wikipedia not to include biographical information that is not verifiable through proper third-party sources, particularly in this case. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:54, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
- Her credentials may have been questioned on this talk page, but I haven't seen a reliable source making any controversy over her education. She discusses it in detail here. Could you provide some documentation showing there is reasonable doubt as to its authenticity? ^^James^^ (talk) 20:18, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
- Well, no, I don't think I have to "verify" that there is doubt. It is in fact a trifle disingenuous to suggest that there need be any reliable source that "doubts" them, when as we know Acharya S guards her privacy: so that the basis of a "reliable" doubt may not be there. A pseudonymous online existence and a rationing of biographical information is not a good basis for the inclusion of self-published biographical facts. Was the past doubting settled? How could it be, other than by some "original research", of which enough has been seen here? Note that part 5 of WP:SELFPUB warns against inclusion of such material unless "the article is not based primarily on such sources". Well, as a biography it primarily is based on such sources, which is why warning bells should ring. The page you cite is headed "What Are Acharya's Credentials?" It is odd, I think, to see an argument that biographical facts should be tsken as not subject to doubt here, while they are used as credentials in another. I'm not of course concerned with readers of "Truth be Known", but whether readers of Wikipedia find such self-certification compatible with our ideal of verifiability. In some cases we allow our readers to make up their own minds; in others they expect our editors to exercise a skeptical line for them. If the former applies here, then say "according to her own site ..."; but I think the latter applies here, that indeed the biographical info on her site is "self-serving" in that it argues for the intellectual basis of her views, and it should be excluded here because we are trying to write a neutral, verifiable encyclopedia article. Charles Matthews (talk) 21:12, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
First off up until a month ago we were writing a verifiable article about her books not her person. And that should remain the focus, so I certainly not agree this article is primarily or even in any major way biographical. That being said authors are allowed to be self serving. Cookbook authors talk about their food experiences and education, political authors about their contacts and who they got the inside scoop from... An everyone is a reliable source about themselves. Unless we have good reason to doubt an author we assume an author is telling the truth not lying about their biography. jbolden1517Talk 06:36, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
- Not everyone is a reliable source on themselves. That is why third-party information is considered important. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:09, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
- No everyone is a reliable source on themselves when it comes to wikipedia. That's the point. What I think you mean is that they may not be an accurate source on themselves, which is entirely possible. But Generally 3rd parties are good for that. In Murdock's case that's difficult because there aren't the 3rd parties. I think WP:SELFPUB should be fine for her jbolden1517Talk 17:08, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
- What I meant was that if you look up policy on "reliable sources" it says in several places Articles should be based upon reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. And I dispute the idea that her website in any sense obviously passes the five tests in WP:SELFPUB. I don't know what you mean by "fine" there, but if you mean we should just suspend a skeptical view for it, I would say that is wrong. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:01, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
Looking at the actual whole thing:
Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as:
- the material is not unduly self-serving;
- it does not involve claims about third parties;
- it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;
- there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity;
- the article is not based primarily on such sources.
Under #1, "self-serving" it is: the claims are used as credentials on that site. Obviously "unduly" is a judgement call. Under #4, doubt has been expressed in the past: again "reasonable" is a judgement call. Is the article based primarily on such sources? This is something of a special case, in that Acharya S (as far as I can tell) shuns any release of personal data, other than that given on the site, for the purposes I have designated as "self-serving". There is nothing in the slightest wrong with that: but obviously it conditions the attitude Wikipedia should take to such biographical facts as are available. (Compare the case of a reality show contestant, where all that is available is a press release; if the contestant posts it on the Web, a skeptical line is appropriate.) If you add these up, I think there are real concerns about verifiability in this case. Of course you can dismiss each of the three points as a quibble, but I'd say that is wikilawyering. A biography is being written in a vacuum of reliable biographical sources. Not a good idea. Charles Matthews (talk) 22:23, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
- Allow me to ask again: What claims from her website do you specifically assert are unduly self-serving? Which do you specifically assert may not be authentic? The burden on those who cite SELFPUB non-compliance to remove biographical date is on those asserting such things; by default and absent such allegations, anyone's own website is certainly permissible as people are experts about themselves. Jclemens (talk) 22:27, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
- Actually what WP:V says is that The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. The material was restored by User:jbolden1517, with the qualification that it is taken from Acharya S's own website. I am arguing that simply saying it is "fine" to do so ignores the caveats in the policy, and I have not been convinced by the arguments produced by User:jbolden1517 (who now claims that this is not a biography, which would presumably place it outside WP:BLP, while arguing for the inclusion of biographical material). I'm not intending to remove the educational claims (flagged by "her own website") until there is consensus to do so. I am looking for a properly stringent scrutiny of the entire content of the article, given that there has been a serious ArbCom case about it in the past, and partisan editors operate on this topic. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:25, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- A couple of things: First, I have no problem whatsoever with attributing things from her website to that website. It's a good practice for any reference, really. Second, BURDEN is different than saying (for example) "This material is UNDULY self serving because...." which is all that I've asked for. Absent any such specific claims of deficiency, it's sufficient to say "This is from her own website and meets SELFPUB" to meet BURDEN for those arguing for inclusion. And finally, I'm still interested in the specific problematic details. Really, let's not have an argument in the abstract--what do you think should be excised completely vs. just attributed accurately? Jclemens (talk) 21:20, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- Actually what WP:V says is that The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. The material was restored by User:jbolden1517, with the qualification that it is taken from Acharya S's own website. I am arguing that simply saying it is "fine" to do so ignores the caveats in the policy, and I have not been convinced by the arguments produced by User:jbolden1517 (who now claims that this is not a biography, which would presumably place it outside WP:BLP, while arguing for the inclusion of biographical material). I'm not intending to remove the educational claims (flagged by "her own website") until there is consensus to do so. I am looking for a properly stringent scrutiny of the entire content of the article, given that there has been a serious ArbCom case about it in the past, and partisan editors operate on this topic. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:25, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- Criterion 4 ("authenticity") is about whether the material is authentically from the hand of the subject. I don't know of any claims that the "Truth Be Known" website isn't Acharya's. Do you mean there are claims that the material presented is false? She has a number of vocal critics, so if the basics of her resume are believed false I would expect that to be trumpeted by the critics. But what I've seen goes in the opposite direction: critics uncovered her identity (as discussed in some threads that have been rightly removed from this page) by correlating college graduation info with her online bio. I've seen puffery in this article before (now removed), but the basic info about her degree seems sound, and not unduly self-serving. --RL0919 (talk) 00:18, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- Agree with Jclemens and RL0919. That being said, again this is not a biography. There is no person named Acharya S is is a pen name. No one now or ever has asserted this article should be primarily or even in any major sense a biography of Ms. Murdock. The issue is whether we can cite her as a source about herself for passing references while diving into a literature review. jbolden1517Talk 01:39, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- I hope you read through all 11 archives before you made your sweeping statement there. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:45, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- And how would I do that? The old talk pages were deleted. What I'm going from is not the discussions that happened in 2006 or whatever but rather the discussions that happened it 2009 when this article was restored. No one addressed biographical issues for months and months. jbolden1517Talk 11:35, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- Kind of hard to talk to you. Archive 1, referenced at the top of this page, was created in October 2005. As you know, the deletion discussion at AfD led to this page being userfied, in the userspace of User:Jclemens; from which status you moved it out into article space again? The old discussions would be important to understanding the issue of why there was an ArbCom case, and what doubts have been raised about the content, as well as the point at issue here. (I don't recommend trying to read them, by the way.) Charles Matthews (talk) 11:54, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- Are you referring to claims raised four years ago by User:ZAROVE? ^^James^^ (talk) 20:30, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- Naturally (though end 2006 and the ArbCom case is not quite four years ago) I consider the history relevant (you were around then and know what I mean, and User:Rpsugar who was active on this page before getting banned was around also). But I was bringing such matters up only because of rather approximate statements made in this thread. The history informs my thinking on the matter, and I know it does for others. But let's get back on an even keel: I think a skeptical line is best, and if this is a special kind of "not a biography of a pseudonym" page, then I think biographical facts are intrusive. But using the forms of words that are in place, as "according to" a website, is my second choice. Charles Matthews (talk) 21:19, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- Technically, RPSugar is simply blocked until such time as he agrees to abide by WP:NLT. (Which may be a while, but his intransigence is the only thing keeping him blocked) For what it's worth, actually, I wasn't aware there had been an arbitration case on this topic until this discussion. Jclemens (talk) 21:28, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- Naturally (though end 2006 and the ArbCom case is not quite four years ago) I consider the history relevant (you were around then and know what I mean, and User:Rpsugar who was active on this page before getting banned was around also). But I was bringing such matters up only because of rather approximate statements made in this thread. The history informs my thinking on the matter, and I know it does for others. But let's get back on an even keel: I think a skeptical line is best, and if this is a special kind of "not a biography of a pseudonym" page, then I think biographical facts are intrusive. But using the forms of words that are in place, as "according to" a website, is my second choice. Charles Matthews (talk) 21:19, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
Yes I moved it back to Writings of D.M. Murdock which was the results of the discussion in deletion review. I tried to honor that compromise Talk:Acharya_S#Requested_Move. But what I do know is for months, before all these moves we had an article which primarily focused on her writings and not biographical information. Further unlike 2005 Murdock is more public. I really think you are reacting to issues involving editors who aren't here. The people focused on biographical aspects seem to yourself and Ism. I read the arbcom case, I don't think deletion was justified at the time. The people who want the article mainly want to write about her books. jbolden1517Talk 13:55, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- You should understand how sensitive BLP issues are, and what care is required to apply the current policy correctly. Actually I think that the ideal solution might be to have a title like astrotheology, and have such reference to the Murdock writings as can support such a topic. What I don't know about "astrotheology" includes the points: is "astrotheology" used in other ways (i.e. would such a title be ambiguous)? Does it cover enough of the writings in question? If effectively "astrotheology" does cover the same territory as the Murdock writings, plus some aspects of her predecessors in this line of argument, then an article under that heading could concentrate on the debate on its content. That would be a good outcome. My suggestion of Stellar House was meant to cover the situation where there is not a single coherent topic that could be named in that way. Charles Matthews (talk) 14:15, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- It appears that astrotheology already redirects to astrolatry, which means that there is a problem of ambiguity. Some write astro-theology which likewise redirects. Astrotheology (Acharya S) would be a title disambiguated in a typical way. Charles Matthews (talk) 14:23, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- The article that links to her area of speciality is Astrolatry, a term I've never actually heard used. As far as I can tell she isn't in the article, yet. The primary author, Dbachmann, knows about her but hates her. But you are certainly welcome to start including her stuff in the article. I think you keep assuming that she's not like any other author. We have thousands of authors on wikipedia. In 2005 people were obsessed with throwing in BLP violations. Rules are much much stricter here than in 2005.
- It has been very odd because you have far and away been the person most focused on her biography. My guess is once the AFD closes down this article goes back to just being a few edits by people who like her books. I understand BLP is sensitive but Acharya S (unlike Murdock) isn't even a person it is a pen name. jbolden1517Talk 15:53, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- This article is primarily about the ideas and works of Acharya/Murdock, and should be named accordingly (as far as I'm concerned, the current name is fine, although there are reasonable alternatives). There is no good reason to repurpose it to be about some broader topic. Since she is a living person, no matter what name she goes by, WP:BLP still applies to any content that is about her, regardless of the name of the article. When the disputes of 2005 began, the BLP policy didn't even exist as a proposed guideline, much less the well-established policy that it is today, and the BLP noticeboard was established months after the ArbCom case closed. There were also no noticeboards about unreliable sources, original research, or POV editing, all of which were evident in the 2005 discussions. Enforcement of the today's policy using the tools available today would have led to users being reported before the first archive's worth of discussions/rants were done, with blocks likely following soon after. So I see no reason to expect a reprise of what happened four years ago.--RL0919 (talk) 16:56, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- You are correct to say that things are different: the original 2005 would now be speedily deleted as an attack page. But there is still the BLP problem. There is no category Category:Living persons on the page (to be accurate, it has been commented out). And yet the discussion in this section is entirely about the inclusion of biographical material; it was replaced by User:jbolden1517, who seems to be ducking the onus now. I don't see that there is a coherent discussion on this, and User:jbolden1517's approach is certainly not helping. As you say, WP:BLP still applies. It will always apply. So, how come an article with title a pseudonym of a living person is not a "biography"? This position seems to be asking for trouble. (I removed two talk threads almost entirely from this page a couple of days ago, which were as disruptive as any of the old discussions. You may "see no reason". but I'm not so complacent.)
- The best outcome here would be a new title that sorted out the topic of discussion. There are few "writings of" articles around, and actually only two of the pattern (one is the writings of Cicero), since Writings of Leon Trotsky is a book title. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:29, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, I support the "writings of..." compromise and the excision of irrelevant biographical material. I really don't care much who she is, really, but significant religious minority viewpoints need to be covered on Wikipedia, per FRINGE. Jclemens (talk) 21:22, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- As I said in the AFD discussion, I'm not especially keen on the "Writings of" approach, but it isn't a terrible name either. Another editor spurred the move back to "Acharya S" as the name; I just corrected the capitalization. The content and BLP issues will be essentially the same either way, unless some new trove of reliable information on Murdock's life suddenly becomes available. There simply isn't material to create an extended personal biography, so the bulk of the article will be about her works and ideas. As far as I know, User:jbolden1517's position on pseudonyms vs. biographies is idiosyncratic. As to the recent discussions of her full name, my view is that the incident shows exactly how different the present is from 2005. Instead a months-long escalating dispute, the matter was quickly resolved by requiring reliable sources and no original research, and the discussions themselves were subsequently excised, so her privacy will not be compromised in web searches by the talk page itself. We can't prevent BLP issues from appearing in articles; even if the article were deleted, her name could come up as an issue on another page. But we can deal with them much better now than what happened back then. --RL0919 (talk) 00:16, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, I support the "writings of..." compromise and the excision of irrelevant biographical material. I really don't care much who she is, really, but significant religious minority viewpoints need to be covered on Wikipedia, per FRINGE. Jclemens (talk) 21:22, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- This article is primarily about the ideas and works of Acharya/Murdock, and should be named accordingly (as far as I'm concerned, the current name is fine, although there are reasonable alternatives). There is no good reason to repurpose it to be about some broader topic. Since she is a living person, no matter what name she goes by, WP:BLP still applies to any content that is about her, regardless of the name of the article. When the disputes of 2005 began, the BLP policy didn't even exist as a proposed guideline, much less the well-established policy that it is today, and the BLP noticeboard was established months after the ArbCom case closed. There were also no noticeboards about unreliable sources, original research, or POV editing, all of which were evident in the 2005 discussions. Enforcement of the today's policy using the tools available today would have led to users being reported before the first archive's worth of discussions/rants were done, with blocks likely following soon after. So I see no reason to expect a reprise of what happened four years ago.--RL0919 (talk) 16:56, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
Well, you say "resolved", but the position is this: the article starts with a name including forename. It is referenced to a book, which is respectable, but on the other hand it isn't clear to me that the referencing isn't circular (the authors may not have had a source independent of the original 2005 article here). On the other hand they may. I wish to suspend judgement on that point. Charles Matthews (talk) 12:04, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with Charles here. And I wonder if a single published reference to her first name warrants its inclusion here. ^^James^^ (talk) 03:55, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
Stellar House
Having looked into the publishing background, I think that a better title for the article would be Stellar House, the publishers founded by Acharya S and based in Seattle. This would allow us to start with something verifiable, and to discuss the notability of the topic in terms of books and the attention they have received. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:25, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- I don't want to cover things like 16 Crucified Saviors (a steller publication) in our article on Murdock. jbolden1517Talk 11:37, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- Well, that represents your expressed wish, then. But considering that we have it from Acharya S that "I wrote the foreword to this edition" in her Amazon review, I don't see the logic. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:58, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
Because we are writing about her as an author. As an author you can cover her forward for Kersey Graves, maybe. I don't see what covering her as a publisher matters. As publisher she also had decide what type of paper to use, how to bind the book, what font to reprint it in.... If you want to cover Stellar House as a new topic that's fine. But she is primarily known as an author not a publisher. We cover jackie Collins on her own article not under St. Martin's Press. jbolden1517Talk 13:03, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- You wouldn't be asserting ownership of the article, would you? The fact that Stellar House says on its website that she founded the firm seems to be as verifiable as the biographical facts, at very least. Charles Matthews (talk) 13:22, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
- Go ahead and include her relationship with Stellar House. You were arguing before that this should be the title. I have objections to that as a title. I agree it is a verifiable biographical fact about Murdock (though not about Acharya S). jbolden1517Talk 13:48, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
Ehrman
The Ehrman reference doesn't belong in this article. The question is about writers like Acharya S and Freke and Gandy, not about Acharya's work specifically. And in his response he discusses the myth theory in general. This quote might suit the Christ myth theory page.
- What about those writers like Acharya S (The Christ Conspiracy)5and Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy (The Jesus Mysteries),6 who say that Jesus never existed, and that Christianity was an invented religion, the Jewish equivalent of the Greek mystery religions?
- "This is an old argument, even though it shows up every 10 years or so...
^^James^^ (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
- Agree. He doesn't address her work specifically and there is no indication he is familiar with it. This article is already in category Christ myth and the this quote appears in the lead article for that cat. jbolden1517Talk 22:18, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Price
Done. OK, another issue is Price. While he did not care for Acharyas first book, he has supported her subsequent work, appearing on interviews with her, writing the forward for her book Who was Jesus? and writing a favorable review for Christ in Egypt. He has also removed the Christ Conspiracy review from his website until he can revise it. In the article here he is presented as a critic of her work and a skeptic. I'm not sure how the above should fit into the article but I do think Price's views are misrepresented. ^^James^^ (talk) 23:49, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
- Yes they are allies now. I think deletion of the quote, unless we ask him for clarification is appropriate. jbolden1517Talk 05:09, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Ken Feder
I think we should include the Ken Feder endorsement if we can find a 3rd party source. [73]. jbolden1517Talk 23:06, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
- found the original [74] jbolden1517Talk 00:38, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Name Issue
I want to revisit the name issue. As it stands we have a single dubious source for her first name. To quote SOPHIA (again) Wikipedia used to be about selecting sources to represent an overall picture of a subject, not finding whatever quote you could to make it stick. Wikipedia should not publish her name when it is published in virtually no reliable sources. See WP:UNDUE. ^^James^^ (talk) 21:41, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- How many alternative first names are published by reliable sources? Jclemens (talk) 21:43, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- None. The point is, the source used is dubious, and may have used Wikipedia as its own source for this information. Contested information on a living person that has only a single dubious source shouldn't be included. It's not Wikipedia's job to find out what her real name is then publish it, while scouring Google Books to find a quote to make it stick. From WP:UNDUE- How much weight is appropriate should reflect the weight that is given in current reliable sources. In this case there is virtually no weight given. Wikipedia is the prominent source for this information and that's backwards. ^^James^^ (talk) 22:06, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- This is a non-issue. We have a book published by Simon & Schuster which lists her name as "Dorothy M. Murdock". We're not claiming she's a communist, or a flag-burner, or a crack addict, we're listing her name. Not all that controversial in the grand scheme of things. Eugene (talk) 22:23, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- If 100% of the RS published say "Dorothy" and 0% give any other name, UNDUE is met. End of discussion. Jclemens (talk) 22:32, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- From WP:BLP: Be very firm about the use of high quality sources. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. (Emphasis not mine.) The book in question, regardless of publisher, is dubious. ^^James^^ (talk) 22:39, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- On what basis is it dubious? Given that this is ^^James^^ of the Christ myth theory page, I'm very interested to hear the answer. Eugene (talk) 23:19, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- WP:STICK applies. If all the RS who mention her first name are in agreement that it's Dorothy, you've got no leg to stand on. First off, it's not poorly sourced or unsourced, and second it's not contentious. If you try to remove it on such a BLP basis, you will be blocked for disruptive editing. Jclemens (talk) 23:40, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- On what basis is it dubious? Given that this is ^^James^^ of the Christ myth theory page, I'm very interested to hear the answer. Eugene (talk) 23:19, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- From WP:BLP: Be very firm about the use of high quality sources. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. (Emphasis not mine.) The book in question, regardless of publisher, is dubious. ^^James^^ (talk) 22:39, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- If 100% of the RS published say "Dorothy" and 0% give any other name, UNDUE is met. End of discussion. Jclemens (talk) 22:32, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- This is a non-issue. We have a book published by Simon & Schuster which lists her name as "Dorothy M. Murdock". We're not claiming she's a communist, or a flag-burner, or a crack addict, we're listing her name. Not all that controversial in the grand scheme of things. Eugene (talk) 22:23, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- None. The point is, the source used is dubious, and may have used Wikipedia as its own source for this information. Contested information on a living person that has only a single dubious source shouldn't be included. It's not Wikipedia's job to find out what her real name is then publish it, while scouring Google Books to find a quote to make it stick. From WP:UNDUE- How much weight is appropriate should reflect the weight that is given in current reliable sources. In this case there is virtually no weight given. Wikipedia is the prominent source for this information and that's backwards. ^^James^^ (talk) 22:06, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
If Wikipedia publishes information about a living person that they have chosen to keep private, it better have a good source for it. This is not the case. WP:BLP and WP:V are core policy and they both apply here.
- Biographies of living persons (BLPs) must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy.
- Be wary of feedback loops, in which material in a Wikipedia article gets picked up by a source, which is later cited in the Wikipedia article to support the original edit.
The source in question is a Holy Blood, Holy Grail style book. As such, it fails WP:Verifiability and WP:RS: "Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts..." This issue is pretty clear cut if you care about policy. ^^James^^ (talk) 08:30, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
- No, while there is an issue here, and it has been aired before, it is not clearcut. But I think User:Jclemens should not be taking such an aggressive line. It is not justified to say someone "will be blocked" for edits in line with BLP enforcement, in a borderline case. That seems to be a heavy-handed assertion of administrator control over content, which is a complete no-no. The most can be said is that it does not make Wikipedia look foolish, to quote from a Simon&Schuster book. That does not speak further to the RS issue, or the BLP issue. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:04, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
- I stand by my statement. I absolutely will not tolerate someone who's raised a tenuous BLP case, had it rejected by consensus, and changed the material in question despite that consensus claiming BLP applied. Any editor, ^^James^^ included, is welcome to seek consensus for a change, but allowing an editor who has sought and rejected the BLP trump-card to use it anyways is per se disruptive. BLP is a very important principle, and incorrectly asserting that material can be removed without respect to process or 3RR, and then performing such a removal is entirely inappropriate. Thus, there is no special administrator exercise over content, just over a (potential) inappropriate use of BLP as a super-vote to remove the material. Jclemens (talk) 13:53, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that it would be inappropriate for James to unilaterally change material in the face of talk page consensus. As you suggest below, he should seek outside opinions if he thinks the talk page participants are getting it wrong. However, it is also inappropriate for an admin to threaten blocks against an editor with whom they have an editorial dispute. That is a clear conflict of interest as described in policy. If James does something that you believe is disruptive, you should take it to WP:ANI or use the {{uninvolved}} tag to request an uninvolved admin to address the problem. --RL0919 (talk) 14:18, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
- FYI, this AND `this both mention Dorothy M. Murdock. No RS yet presented attributes any other first name to D. M. Murdock. People whose names appear in reliable sources do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy, nor can Ms. Murdock claim (in person or by proxy) to be a non-public figure or low profile individual: she clearly seeks attention for her theories, and the attendant attention to her given name is inavoidable. By all means-^^James^^ can feel free to go to BLP/N or file an RfC on this if he wants... but until and unless a consensus exists that he has a case, he hasn't got one per the local consensus here. Jclemens (talk) 14:03, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
- I stand by my statement. I absolutely will not tolerate someone who's raised a tenuous BLP case, had it rejected by consensus, and changed the material in question despite that consensus claiming BLP applied. Any editor, ^^James^^ included, is welcome to seek consensus for a change, but allowing an editor who has sought and rejected the BLP trump-card to use it anyways is per se disruptive. BLP is a very important principle, and incorrectly asserting that material can be removed without respect to process or 3RR, and then performing such a removal is entirely inappropriate. Thus, there is no special administrator exercise over content, just over a (potential) inappropriate use of BLP as a super-vote to remove the material. Jclemens (talk) 13:53, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
Yes, language such as User:Jclemens uses is in effect an assertion of ownership, backed up by threats of blocking, backed up also by a "blocking policy" formulated at User:Jclemens/Blocks as "making behavioral expectations and consequences clear". I.e. if second-class citizens don't do as told, they will be blocked and then ignored. (Read all of it, and note that this admin is not contactable by email.) Language such as I absolutely will not tolerate someone who's raised a tenuous BLP case, had it rejected by consensus, and changed the material in question despite that consensus claiming BLP applied. Any editor, ^^James^^ included, is welcome to seek consensus for a change, but allowing an editor who has sought and rejected the BLP trump-card to use it anyways is per se disruptive goes miles beyond policy, and entirely prejudges the issue of what is within the policy, and what is disruptive.
Further, the argument presented doesn't address the point. The point is basically this: a fact F is in the article, on the basis of single source S, and the single source S ticks one of the boxes to be a "reliable source", namely that the book is from a well-known publisher. Arguing that "the fact is true" is a basic misunderstanding of content policy. Arguing that the sourcing is well within BLP policy is also a misconception - the point is somewhat marginal.
In any case I'm currently seeking another way of getting at the issue. User:Jclemens is not acting "uninvolved", and I would have mailed said admin with information about what to do here. But I await developments. Charles Matthews (talk) 15:30, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
- To respond to both Charles Matthews and RL0919:
- The advice to ^^James^^ that invoking BLP to changed an RS'ed statement is would result in a block is not involvement or ownership on my part. In fact, the "threat" appears to have served its purpose in that he has not disruptively changed the name as proposed. Thus, the interests of the encyclopedia are served, by appropriately and proactively communicating specific expectations. ^^James^^ has, if anything, demonstrated appropriate judgment by not pushing the matter after my statement. Jclemens (talk) 02:09, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
- People are certainly welcome to opine that I might be involved, but the simple fact is, I haven't edited this article in quite some time, and have no interest in its current content. If I have ownership over anything, it's proposed flagrant misuse of the BLP policy. Both of the statements are somewhat imprudent in WP:ABF'ing, while Charles Matthews' statement actively (and entirely unhelpfully) posits some sort of class warfare between admins and non-admins.
- So, does someone want to go ahead and put together an RFC or a post to WP:BLP/N to seek further input, or is the only current thing of interest in this page my assertion that such input needed to be sought? Jclemens (talk) 02:08, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
What ^^James^^ actually said was "I want to revisit the name issue". Let's look at the arguments, not the alleged "advice" and its alleged good effect of said editor not doing something he wasn't necessarily proposing to do. Let's look at the actual arguments here, and the actual BLP policy, to see who is saying anything of merit.
- (a) "virtually no reliable sources" (^^James^^)
- (b) "How many alternative first names are published?" (Jclemens)
- (c) "the source used is dubious" (^^James^^)
- (d) "This is a non-issue" [& Simon & Schuster is mainstream publisher] (Eugeneacurry)
- (e) "100% of the RS published say "Dorothy" and 0% give any other name" (Jclemens)
- (f) "Contentious material" should be removed under BLP (^^James^^)
- (g) "On what basis is it dubious?" plus ad hominem (Eugeneacurry)
- (h) "it's not poorly sourced or unsourced" plus block threat (Jclemens)
- (i) "Be wary of feedback loops" (^^James^^)
- (j) book genre (^^James^^)
- (k) not clearcut (Charles Matthews)
- (l) need for consensus and/or third opinion (RL0919)
- (m) adds Google news link by Rana Husseini (Jclemens)
- (n) "no other name for Murdock" (Jclemens)
- (o) "the single source S ticks one of the boxes" (Charles Matthews).
I see nothing of merit in what Eugeneacurry argues. What RL0919 says is very fair. Of the points by ^^James^^, I find (i) and (j) to be reasonable points, with (i) an explicit reference to WP:BLP#Avoid gossip and feedback loops. Of the points by Jclemens, much isn't really relevant (absence of sources saying D for Danielle has nothing to do with it), and it comes down to the part of (h) saying "not unsourced"; as for (m) that is more plausibly feedback from here than the book source, and I discount the source. I stand by (k) and (o). Charles Matthews (talk) 08:50, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
- I honestly don't care one way or the other about the inclusion of her first name. If there are reliable sources for it, I'm fine with keeping it. If the sources aren't reliable or there is a feedback loop, I'm fine with removing it. I believe that should be the focus of the discussion. The folks here with an opinion on it (including Jclemens, who has clearly taken a position in the discussion, and yes, that does make him "involved" regardless of whether he's edited the article recently) don't seem to have a consensus on that, so asking for opinions at a relevant noticeboard is probably the best next step. Either WP:BLPN or WP:RSN seems like a reasonable choice of noticeboard. --RL0919 (talk) 14:21, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
- Focusing only on the issues of content and reserving all my rights to disagree on the mischaracterization of me as involved, here's my response:
- (e) is absolutely necessary for it to be contentious--that is, an item under dispute. If there's even one source that says D.M. Murdock's first name is "Deborah" or "Dianne" or anything else, that creates a conflict between reliable sources. That hasn't been asserted. If you look at ^^James^^ arguments, the assertion is one of personal privacy. The argument that's lacking is "Her name isn't Dorothy, it's X"--which has never been advanced.
- Because of the lack of argument that the name is contentious, there is no BLP issue to discuss. If you want to go back to prior BLP wording, the assertion that Murdock's first name is Dorothy is not negative--it's a simple statement of fact, which may be incorrect, but meets WP:V on the basis that the two RS'es that comment on it use the first name. If it were an unsourced allegation of criminal activity or something else that might actually damage the person if believed to be true, BLP would absolutely apply. There is simply no justification for an editor believing that a notable article subject's name be kept private, whether or not the subject agrees, triggering a BLP removal--she's not a low profile individual, and BLP cannot be used to censor well-sourced but disliked information about a subject.
- Point (i), on feedback loops, might indeed be relevant, but the onus is on the editor who is arguing against two separate RS's to show that BOTH draw from a prior Wikipedia article, either directly or indirectly. If that can be proven, that would attack WP:V for the fact, but NOT on a BLP basis. Jclemens (talk) 15:12, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
- Focusing only on the issues of content and reserving all my rights to disagree on the mischaracterization of me as involved, here's my response:
Well, the first two points seem to be just plain wrong. (How, exactly, could we combine ethics with what you suggest? See "Presumption in favor of privacy" and "People who are relatively unknown" at the BLP page.) And the definition of the "onus" seems to be wrong, too. As I say, I discount the journalist link on Google News who happens to have written about Acharya S on April 1 as independent verification of any sort. I have already pointed out that ^^James^^ has correctly identified a BLP issue in the feedback (plus gossip), and it happens that I raised exactly this point in earlier discussion and said I wanted to keep an open mind on whether the book authors had independently researched this point or just picked it up from WP a while back, I think we are exactly where we were:
- The referencing may be circular, and no one has said that the book authors have clearly researched the fact independently.
- As for notability of the "article subject", please note the phrase "exercise restraint and include only material relevant to their notability, focusing on high quality secondary sources" at WP:NPF. Why would the forename be relevant? It is actually irrelevant to the writings, because it is not on the authored books that provide the basis for an article. Basically you assume throughout what you'd like to prove, which is that the fact in question is well-sourced. There is a source, but whether it is "high quality" is something else again.
Charles Matthews (talk) 21:41, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
- If you'd like to impeach either of the RS that use the name, it is absolutely your right to seek consensus, through a new discussion or through finding an applicable past discussion, that does so. Saying "I discount..." isn't an argument--it's a personal opinion. While it's entirely possible that someone derived the name from the Wikipedia article and used it, that can't simply be presumed.
- So, answer me this: Is Dorothy M. Murdock, who uses the pen name Acharya S, a notable figure or not? If not, we can go ahead and delete her bio on BLP concerns. I'll delete it, if consensus supports that outcome. On the other hand, if she IS a notable figure, then her name is not something that can be removed--the sentence you cite on "material relevant to their notability" is a rather recent innovation, and is not intended to be used to CENSOR material at the behest of the subject.
- So which is it: Do you want the article deleted as non-notable, or would you rather the RS'ed name of a notable BLP subject be included? Jclemens (talk) 00:33, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
- Let's just recall Wikipedia:Requests for Arbitration/ZAROVE from 2006, and the detail there applying to Acharya S. That is why sources may be suspect.
- I see no reason to change what I wrote at the December 2009 AfD, which you can find through the link at the top of the page (to refresh your memory, I said "I doubt that there are actually reliable sources to establish biographical facts to current standards on verifiability: the sources cited look familiar and I would argue that as we now look at things, they are inadequate"). You disagreed. The fact that many of the books are self-published undermines the notability of the author, certainly. To answer your question, I would vote "delete" at AfD tomorrow for this article.
- But there are obviously two views here. When I quote directly from WP:BLP you argue that WP:NPF is innovative, that removal under BLP is "censorship" (which is a very old chestnut and completely unfounded), and that anyway you have better insight into the intended use of that piece of policy than I do. I suggest you check the BLP page for two years ago, where you'll find the same section. You are quite wrong on your history, and not only that. Charles Matthews (talk) 13:44, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
- To quote the end of WP:BLPNAME "Consider whether the inclusion of names of private living individuals who are not directly involved in an article's topic adds significant value. The presumption in favor of privacy is strong in the case of family members of articles' subjects and other loosely involved persons without independent notability." (emphasis mine, of course) While it doesn't specifically come out and say "always include the subject's name", it needn't do so: the privacy clause applies to non-subjects, not to subjects. Even artists who use pseudonyms, from Sting to Dr. Dre have their names included in articles. Dorothy M. Murdock, in addition to not being a private person within the scope of the policy, is the article subject: privacy would only apply if she were just a section in Christ myth theory or wherever her information was merged after a previous AfD. Jclemens (talk) 15:32, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
You are now quite irrelevantly quoting from the section typically to be applied to family members. You have not answered the points, and you are still assuming what you want to prove: she is someone who guards her privacy, as she is entitled to, and the phrase "private person" simply does not appear on that page.
I see this all as pretty much clarified, anyway, by now, :
- going by the nutshell summary, there would seem to be case for including the name if it was properly referenced;
- but going by the specific section starting "Wikipedia contains biographies of people who, while notable enough for an entry, are not generally well known", there would be a case for not including any name under which she does not write (broadcast, blog, put up web pages, whatever).
That is why I have said that it is not clearcut. You have been using either/or arguments, and WP:NPF drives a wedge right through what you have been saying: it is simply not BLP policy that someone is either a private person or a public figure. Do you agree with that? The arguments have been put.
User:Jclemens, I think as an admin you can be expected to uphold official policy on Acharya S, and if you are not prepared to apply WP:BLP in general and WP:NPF in particular, when it is relevant, you should consider your position. Charles Matthews (talk) 17:45, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
- A person's name is not "material about the person" That's covered elsewhere in BLP. You're cherry picking things that support your position, while openly admitting that you have no factual basis for challenging the actual name that is reliably sourced. I am absolutely upholding BLP by refusing to be bullied into censoring neutral, reliably sourced information just because one or two editors doesn't like it. You and ^^James^^ can WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT all week and it won't make the material any less clearcut.
- The way forward for you, should you desire to seek a larger consensus to override the consensus here is to do one or more of the following:
- Produce an RS that states that the "D" in D. M. Murdock stands for something besides Dorothy. Then, we report on all RS'ed names without taking any position on which is or is not correct.
- Seek input at WP:RSN or with an RfC to impeach both of the reliable sources which use the name Dorothy. If both sources are held by broader consensus to be non-reliable, that eliminates a reliable source for the name, making it legitimate to be removed under BLP.
- Seek input at WP:BLPN or with an RfC that sustains your interpretation of BLP.
- All of these options are open to you; I will accept the input of larger community consensus if my view is not upheld. Jclemens (talk) 22:35, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
- Jclemens, before I ask for outside input, I'd like to better understand your interpretation of BLP. When BLP says that unsourced contentious material about living persons should be removed, do you interpret contentious to mean contentious among secondary sources? ^^James^^ (talk) 18:16, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- Sure: "Contentious" means essentially "negative or positive". Past versions of the policy highlighted negative information, but that was changed to "contentious" to expand it to include positive info as well. Negative info that could disparage, harm, denigrate, libel, etc. a living person MUST be sourced, and the sum total of such information in an article can't be UNDUE such that the entire page is an attack page. Positive info that could be puffery, promotion, peacockishness, or boasting needs to be sourced as well. A name is neither positive or negative--it's a fact which can be correct or incorrect, so the proximate issue is whether WP:V is met by WP:RS. Even if something is contentious, however, if it's RS'ed, it stays in. Jclemens (talk) 18:39, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- WP:BLP encompasses negative, positive and neutral material. ^^James^^ (talk) 05:53, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- So what, precisely, does it mean, then? Anything anyone disagrees with? Read the talk page archives to gain a better understanding of the intent and limitations of those phrases. Jclemens (talk) 06:17, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- Contentious material that is poorly sourced should be removed. That's what it says in plain english. It also says to be conservative in sourcing- especially with regard to a subjects privacy. ^^James^^ (talk) 06:48, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- WP:BLP encompasses negative, positive and neutral material. ^^James^^ (talk) 05:53, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
- Sure: "Contentious" means essentially "negative or positive". Past versions of the policy highlighted negative information, but that was changed to "contentious" to expand it to include positive info as well. Negative info that could disparage, harm, denigrate, libel, etc. a living person MUST be sourced, and the sum total of such information in an article can't be UNDUE such that the entire page is an attack page. Positive info that could be puffery, promotion, peacockishness, or boasting needs to be sourced as well. A name is neither positive or negative--it's a fact which can be correct or incorrect, so the proximate issue is whether WP:V is met by WP:RS. Even if something is contentious, however, if it's RS'ed, it stays in. Jclemens (talk) 18:39, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- Jclemens, before I ask for outside input, I'd like to better understand your interpretation of BLP. When BLP says that unsourced contentious material about living persons should be removed, do you interpret contentious to mean contentious among secondary sources? ^^James^^ (talk) 18:16, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
As I said before, there appear to be two views. But citing WP:NPF for a person who is hardly known other than via writing is hardly "cherry-picking", is it? And no more of the "bullying": you were the one who introduced that tone here, User:Jclemens. I don't see why I should accept the comment A person's name is not "material about the person" That's covered elsewhere in BLP on your say-so. Charles Matthews (talk) 21:25, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
- By all means, don't take my say so: read all of WP:BLP.
- BLP is a big hammer to pull out. Calling "BLP!" in a dispute that clearly doesn't qualify is disruptive editing, and pointing that out ahead of time served to avert a potential edit war. Sorry if anyone got their feelings hurt, but the net result was a thorough discussion. Jclemens (talk) 04:44, 22 April 2010 (UTC)