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:::: This is an article about the gun, not politics surrounding features of it. New York and Connecticut ban "AR-15s" and that is politics. The New York SAFE Act compliant guns (see [http://a57.foxnews.com/global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/U.S./660/371/AR15pic2.jpg image here]) that are no longer considered "assault style weapons" or "AR-15s" as a matter of law and politics is not relevant here and is an AR-15 for our article. The controversy that would appear in this article would necessarily have to be a lot [[WP:SYNTH]] to cover exactly what is controversial and if the controversy is actually over anything in the "expired patents" you mentioned. The controversy is obviously not just "AR-15"'s and doesn't cover every variant but rather, the controversy extends to features that are lumped under the "AR-15" as a political talking point. Detachable magazine, large capacity magazine, flash hider, pistol grip and bayonet lug have nothing to do with "AR-15" but are the main points of controversy and are lumped with "AR-15" when discussed in political terms. It's why mistakes such as what happened in Orlando happen all the time. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 21:55, 24 June 2016 (UTC) |
:::: This is an article about the gun, not politics surrounding features of it. New York and Connecticut ban "AR-15s" and that is politics. The New York SAFE Act compliant guns (see [http://a57.foxnews.com/global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/U.S./660/371/AR15pic2.jpg image here]) that are no longer considered "assault style weapons" or "AR-15s" as a matter of law and politics is not relevant here and is an AR-15 for our article. The controversy that would appear in this article would necessarily have to be a lot [[WP:SYNTH]] to cover exactly what is controversial and if the controversy is actually over anything in the "expired patents" you mentioned. The controversy is obviously not just "AR-15"'s and doesn't cover every variant but rather, the controversy extends to features that are lumped under the "AR-15" as a political talking point. Detachable magazine, large capacity magazine, flash hider, pistol grip and bayonet lug have nothing to do with "AR-15" but are the main points of controversy and are lumped with "AR-15" when discussed in political terms. It's why mistakes such as what happened in Orlando happen all the time. --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 21:55, 24 June 2016 (UTC) |
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:::Articles that debunk the claim that ARs are not murder weapons just add to our imperative to cover it. [[User:Mark Schierbecker|Mark Schierbecker]] ([[User talk:Mark Schierbecker|talk]]) 04:36, 26 June 2016 (UTC) |
:::Articles that debunk the claim that ARs are not murder weapons just add to our imperative to cover it. [[User:Mark Schierbecker|Mark Schierbecker]] ([[User talk:Mark Schierbecker|talk]]) 04:36, 26 June 2016 (UTC) |
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:::::This article should be about all parts of the AR-15. If the text is too long we could spin out the boring parts. The use of the AR-15s in crime is not a primarily a political issue. Neither are the questions about its reliability. Both are simple matters of history. We include some of the history of the AR-15, we should include all of it. We should follow [[WP:DUE]] and devote space to the aspects of the AR-15's existence which have gotten the most attention in reliable sources. Nobody here can seriously argue that there is no attention given to the use of AR-15s in mass shootings. The article has plenty of space for every possible amunition which some AR-15 knock-off can fire. So it should have space for covering the most controversial part of its existence. [[User:Felsic2|Felsic2]] ([[User talk:Felsic2|talk]]) 23:01, 29 June 2016 (UTC) |
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== Manufacturers list == |
== Manufacturers list == |
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comparison with M16 and M4 should be more upfront
we should probably frontload the similarities and differences from the M16/M4. Something to the effect of "The AR-15 is a civilian variant of the M16/M4 rifle featuring compatibility with components of the military versions but lacking a selective fire function (full automatic for M16A1, 3 round burst for later variants)" I leave the exact wording to others as i know this is probably going to be a touchy page for a few weeks.
list of countries
This list is a back-handed and less-than-rational way of addressing "use in kiling sprees," by listing the resulting regulations. However, its apparently an arbitrary list, covering only a small fraction of the globe, and its reason for being is unclear and perhaps slightly dishonest.
But far be it from me to tangle with the awesome and dangerous Wiki-powers that I assume prevail here.
M16 is military designation for an AR-15
I reverted an IP who is making a common mistake concerning the AR-15. M16 is a military designation for the AR-15, the latter being Armalite's original designation for the rifle regardless of it being select-fire or not. Please see the caption to the photo in this book.
— Berean Hunter (talk) 15:46, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes, it is a common mistake...unfortunately the article seems to do everything in power to confuse the reader. As it is constantly (and oftentimes inappropriately) referring to M16s, "Drop In Auto Sear", full-auto variants, etc. Perhaps, we should divide and rename the article. The new "COLT AR-15" page would focus only on the semi-auto models, with a Discretionary sanctions header on the talk page allowing editors to ruthlessly purge the machine-gun and assault rifle content. Then we can create a new "ARMALITE AR-15" page where we can focus on the early history of the ArmaLite and M16 rifles, while allowing discussion of machine gun conversions and assault rifle variants.--RAF910 (talk) 17:25, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
The "AR-15" model name is, as pointed out in the article, a copyrighted trademark belonging to Colt. It seems the article ignores this fact by almost immediately continuing to use it to describe clones from other manufacturers as AR-15s. You are contributing to the common misuse of the name by persons who insist on labeling it as an "assault weapon". Wikipedia is expected, I believe, to help dissuade such misuse instead of contributing to confusion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Papabill1945 (talk • contribs) 03:08, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
What is the intended topic of this article
I am assuming from the text that this article was intended to refer to the original AR-15 design (that became the M16) and all its variants, rather than just the civilian versions of the original design. I have changed the introductory paragraph to make that clear. I don't care what this article covers, but a choice needs to be made.
PrivateThoughts (talk) 04:14, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
It seems obvious that most people would expect this to be about the entirety of the line of weapons sold under the AR-15 designation. The bulk of this would be the AR 15 as opposed to the M16 and M4 versions. 220.122.184.152 (talk) 13:32, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
The problem with that view is that the article begins with the discussion of the Armalite version, which was made into the M16. PrivateThoughts (talk) 00:58, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
A history of use section is required about mass shootings
Not the "controversy due to mass shootings". The heading as such is unacceptable.
Legally obtainable assault-style rifles now have a history of being utilized for mass murder, and as such, a history should be written about it. There is no controversy (as currently stated), no one is arguing (i.e., having a controversy) about the use of this weapon in mass murder. Anyone looking to learn about this weapon should be aware of it's devastating history on civilian life. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.22.43.213 (talk) 15:07, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
- All weapons through history, from stone-age axes and spears to the AR-15, have a "history of being utilized for mass murder". And no, there's no reason to add a separate "History of mass murder" section in this article, no more than there is to add it in any other article about individual weapons. Discuss it on the talk pages of gun control articles and articles about individual mass murderers instead, not here. Kitchen knives are the most common murder tools, BTW, are you going to add a "History of mass murder" section to Knife too? Thomas.W talk 15:24, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
Knives also give you a heart transplant and cut my bread. Knives do a lot of things. Guns do one thing, and this particular gun is particularly known for doing a particular thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.36.26.240 (talk) 17:50, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
- Judging by the latest news reports it wasn't even this particular gun, but a Sig-Sauer... Thomas.W talk 18:07, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
Do one thing? Which is that? Put meat on my table? Enable me to defend my home? Allow me to engage in popular sport shooting competitions? Your bias is showing. Make sure is does not enter the article.
- The AR-15 is not an Assault rifle. The media and politians using the wrong terminology for something, does not justify using said wrong terminology on Wikipedia. 76.22.43.213 has a very clear and present bias on this topic. 76.22.43.213 has only edited one thing in the past, and that was in 2010. This should not be included, not only due to this clear bias, but if we include these horrible things on this page, we also need to add them to every other firearm page, as well as every time a specific model of a car is used by a drunk driver to kill someone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MordeKyle (talk • contribs) 21:16, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
This whole section is clearly about politics and propaganda. I have deleted it. This discussion is a good example of why it needs to go. People tried to keep it factual and even that was controversial. PrivateThoughts (talk) 17:28, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
- If you guys really think that reliable sources haven't repeatedly discussed the AR-15 in the context of mass shootings then you haven't been doing your research. There's a huge difference between the topics and articles you list above, such as "knife", and specific brands or types of weapons. This is a systemic problem with firearms articles. For some reason, facts like the color and weight are considered vital detaisl relative to notability, but scores of articles about their use in massacres are considdered irrelevant trivia. That's POV editing, plain and simple. Felsic2 (talk) 18:18, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
- Norway (largest western world shooting by an individual -- Mini-14, not an Ar-15 or variant. Paris mass shootings, largest mass shooting in western world by multiple shooters -- AK-47s, not an AR-15 or variant. Va Tech, until last month largest US mass shooting -- pistols, no AR-15 or variant. Shootingtracker list of mass shootings less than 2% with AR-15.Nistep89 (talk) 03:04, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
- If you guys really think that reliable sources haven't repeatedly discussed the AR-15 in the context of mass shootings then you haven't been doing your research. There's a huge difference between the topics and articles you list above, such as "knife", and specific brands or types of weapons. This is a systemic problem with firearms articles. For some reason, facts like the color and weight are considered vital detaisl relative to notability, but scores of articles about their use in massacres are considdered irrelevant trivia. That's POV editing, plain and simple. Felsic2 (talk) 18:18, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
This is disingenuous. Many people edited the article to try to make that paragraph more accurate, including me, and even that was undone. The only purpose of the section was to spread propaganda. You are welcome to pretend that the brand of a knife or a gun makes something newsworthy, but there was never any content to the paragraph other than a list of events that somehow never managed to stay accurate for any period of time. PrivateThoughts (talk) 18:21, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
- No, it is not disingenuous and I don't appreciate the expression of bad faith.
- The issue of mass shootings involving AR-15 type weapons is a significant topic. It is newsworthy because it's often in the news. If there are problems with accuracy then let's fix those. Please explain what "propaganda" is being spread. Felsic2 (talk) 22:33, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
- I stand by "disingenuous". You ignore the facts of the matter. The content of the section (and other parts of this article) were repeatedly vandalized and never had any content beyond a list of events, excepting a few pure lies. "Newsworthy" and "in the news" are not synonyms. Check the dictionary. Your inaccurate editing of the lead sentence under the guise of fixing a "weird lead" is a bit suspicious, as well.
PrivateThoughts (talk) 16:57, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- The lead is still weird. Maybe we oughta discuss it rather than endlessly revising it.
- I'm not addressing any specific content, but rather the general topic of mass shootings and AR-15s. Let's find a consensus on how to address this topic, which is covered in numerous reliable sources. Is there a problem with a heading like, "Criminal use"? Felsic2 (talk) 17:20, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
I'm not interested in endless revisions, either, but I wouldn't have needed to fix it if you would limit your changes to issues that you understand, assuming your problem was lack of knowledge. And no, I'm tired of propaganda sections. You can start a whole article of your own that addresses any issue you wish. The AR-15 page should be about the AR-15. PrivateThoughts (talk) 06:36, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
- That ain't helpful. Don't throw around charges of "propaganda", etc., especially if you're not interested in productive discussions abou improving this article. Felsic2 (talk) 17:46, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
- Norway (largest western world shooting by an individual -- Mini-14, not an Ar-15 or variant. Paris mass shootings, largest mass shooting in western world by multiple shooters -- AK-47s, not an AR-15 or variant. Va Tech, until last month largest US mass shooting -- pistols, no AR-15 or variant. Shootingtracker list of mass shootings -- less than 2% with AR-15.Nistep89 (talk) 03:04, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
'Legal status of civilian ownership' section
The "Legal status of civilian ownership" section section needs to be out-merged for the countries that don't distinguish AR-15s from other semi-automatic weapons. One of the various "gun politics" pages may be a good target. Mark Schierbecker (talk) 19:43, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
- I agree. I don't personally feel it is necessary to have this page be filled with the "legal status" of this firearm, but if it must, the page should only reference laws that specifically target the AR-15. MordeKyle (talk) 21:00, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
- I also agree. It's worth noting that the majority of the content is unsourced as well. Niteshift36 (talk) 13:39, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
Should section "Controversy due to use in mass shootings" be removed?
YES - I believe this section is irrelevant to this article. This is not added to other firearm pages. I feel if we retain this section, it would need to be added to every other firearm page, as well as every car model used by a drunk driver, every hammer used in a crime, every baseball bat, etc. This is just my opinion. I feel with an already VERY lengthy section on the legality of this rifle, that this is just not necessary to the article and gives just another point of contention in an already hot article. MordeKyle (talk) 22:12, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
- Are other RS making this specific connection? If so, then it should stay. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:47, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
- None that I have seen. MordeKyle (talk) 00:12, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
- Done as per PrivateThoughts above. MordeKyle (talk) 20:43, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
- If individual brands of baseball bats were routinely linked to murders, then of course we'd mention that in the articles about them. This is a crazy and totally invalid argument. Do you guys really beleive there is no controversy about this weapon beyond whether it jams tool frequently? Felsic2 (talk) 18:20, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
- AR-15 is not an individual brand, for one thing, it is a rather generic design at this point. You not understanding why it is different from any other gun, doesn't make it any different from any other gun. The AR-15 is no different than any other firearm. The Ruger Mini-14 is literally the exact same firearm, it just looks "less scary". It even uses the same magazine that the AR-15 does, fires the same rounds, at the same frequency. Besides any of this, the AR-15 is used less in crime than A LOT of other firearms. It is even used less in crime than other tools such as hammers and baseball bats. You don't even understand what you are talking about, yet you are on this page trying to add controversy to it. There are MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of these "evil assault rifles" in the united states, if the firearms and their owners were as dangerous as you are making them out to be, everyone would be dead. MordeKyle (talk) 19:36, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
- If the AR-15 and the Ruger Mini-14 are "literally the exact same firearm", then why do we have articles on both of them? Felsic2 (talk) 19:39, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
- Well that's because they are different guns. In terms of functions, and in relation to your argument, they are no different, I'm just pointing out that the Mini-14 has the exact same capacity to be used by an evil person to kill people as the AR-15 does. As I also stated above, which you clearly ignored or have no response to, the AR-15 is used less to commit murder than many other firearms. It is not more deadly or less deadly than any other firearm. It is a tool, and nothing more. Just as a hammer was designed to drive a nail, the AR-15 was designed to protect freedom. Sometimes the hammer is used to do something other than drive a nail, it is not a fault of the hammer or people who use their hammers within the scope of it's design. You are blaming an object for something that evil people have done, while millions upon millions of good people who own AR-15's, will never do any evil with them, and will only use them to defend themselves and to defend freedom. MordeKyle (talk) 20:03, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
- After review of your contributions to Wikipedia, it seems that your forte on Wikipedia is to vandalize (WP:VD) firearm related pages, so I won't feed into your attempts. Please adhere to WP:POLICY. MordeKyle (talk) 20:40, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
- That posting fits the definition of "assuming bad faith", and violates other behavior policies and guidelines. If there is a specific policy you think is being violated, then say so and do not cast empty aspersions. And please read WP:VANDAL before you cite it again. Felsic2 (talk) 22:40, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
- After review of your contributions to Wikipedia, it seems that your forte on Wikipedia is to vandalize (WP:VD) firearm related pages, so I won't feed into your attempts. Please adhere to WP:POLICY. MordeKyle (talk) 20:40, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
- Well that's because they are different guns. In terms of functions, and in relation to your argument, they are no different, I'm just pointing out that the Mini-14 has the exact same capacity to be used by an evil person to kill people as the AR-15 does. As I also stated above, which you clearly ignored or have no response to, the AR-15 is used less to commit murder than many other firearms. It is not more deadly or less deadly than any other firearm. It is a tool, and nothing more. Just as a hammer was designed to drive a nail, the AR-15 was designed to protect freedom. Sometimes the hammer is used to do something other than drive a nail, it is not a fault of the hammer or people who use their hammers within the scope of it's design. You are blaming an object for something that evil people have done, while millions upon millions of good people who own AR-15's, will never do any evil with them, and will only use them to defend themselves and to defend freedom. MordeKyle (talk) 20:03, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
- If the AR-15 and the Ruger Mini-14 are "literally the exact same firearm", then why do we have articles on both of them? Felsic2 (talk) 19:39, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
- AR-15 is not an individual brand, for one thing, it is a rather generic design at this point. You not understanding why it is different from any other gun, doesn't make it any different from any other gun. The AR-15 is no different than any other firearm. The Ruger Mini-14 is literally the exact same firearm, it just looks "less scary". It even uses the same magazine that the AR-15 does, fires the same rounds, at the same frequency. Besides any of this, the AR-15 is used less in crime than A LOT of other firearms. It is even used less in crime than other tools such as hammers and baseball bats. You don't even understand what you are talking about, yet you are on this page trying to add controversy to it. There are MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of these "evil assault rifles" in the united states, if the firearms and their owners were as dangerous as you are making them out to be, everyone would be dead. MordeKyle (talk) 19:36, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
- If individual brands of baseball bats were routinely linked to murders, then of course we'd mention that in the articles about them. This is a crazy and totally invalid argument. Do you guys really beleive there is no controversy about this weapon beyond whether it jams tool frequently? Felsic2 (talk) 18:20, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
- Done as per PrivateThoughts above. MordeKyle (talk) 20:43, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
- None that I have seen. MordeKyle (talk) 00:12, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
- Just to clarify, the AR15 and the Mini14 are, in many ways, essentially the same firearm, but they are not literally the same firearm. Call it semantics if you like, but words are important. Niteshift36 (talk) 20:43, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for your input @Niteshift36: I used the word "literally" incorrectly. This doesn't change the message, and anyone reading that knew what I was saying. Thanks MordeKyle (talk) 20:51, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
- I get it and I've used the illustration between the AR and Mini14 probably a hundred times myself. But Felsic was hanging part of his argument on the semantics and he quoted that incorrect use, so when you answered with "because they are different guns", I felt someone should just step in and state the obvious to Felsic because you didn't seem to be inclined to clarify it on your own. Let's not act like I'm the enemy here. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:06, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
- @Niteshift36: I'm not acting like you're the enemy, nor did I imply that. I actually thanked you in my reply, twice. I was just saying that Felsic is a troll, and we should feed the troll. Thanks again, MordeKyle (talk) 21:33, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
- I apologize. I read it wrong. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:34, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
This talk section continues to prove to me that the section had no purpose other than propaganda. PrivateThoughts (talk) 14:32, 18 June 2016 (UTC) PrivateThoughts (talk)
- PrivateThoughts, what propaganda are you talking about?
- Andy Dingley wrote: Are other RS making this specific connection? If so, then it should stay. MordeKyle replied that he hand't seen any reliable sources making the connection between AR-15 type rifles and mass shootings. If so, then MordeKyle has not been reading the mainstream US newspapers, many of which have been publishing articles on that exact topic. If 10 or 20 sources talk about something, even if we disagree with it, then we shouldn't brush it aside, epecially not when we are including lots of thinly sourced material. For more information, see my new essay, User:Felsic2/Gun use. Felsic2 (talk) 22:27, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
- The media are very often wrong when claiming that an AR-15 has been used in this or that shooting, as could be seen after the Orlando shootings when all media sources claimed that it was an AR-15, and many continued to do so even after the police had said that it was a Sig_Sauer MCX, a totally unrelated rifle, and not an AR-15. Thomas.W talk 23:52, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
- If a source has wrong info then that wrong info shouldn't be used. See User:Felsic2/Gun_use#Newspaper_reporters_often_make_mistakes_about_guns. Since the MCX can accept AR-15 parts, it is not exactly 'totally unrelated'. That doesn't address the general issue of the RS coverage of AR-15 type weapons in mass shootings. Felsic2 (talk) 23:58, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
- Looking about the same and being able to use the same magazines doesn't count, the action, which is what counts in firearms, is totally different (the AR-15 uses direct gas impingement and a recoil buffer in the lower receiver, the MCX uses a gas piston and twin recoil springs in the upper receiver), making the MCX and the AR-15 unrelated. Thomas.W talk 07:38, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- Right. They're totaly different while the Ruger Mini-14 is exactly the same. Whatever. The point is that on Wikipedia we oughta report what the RSes say, not censor stuff that we don't like. If you're claiming that the mainstream media is wrong about the use of AR-15 weapons, or weapons with AR-15 type actions, in mass shootings then please say that. Felsic2 (talk) 14:52, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- Wrong, being sourced isn't by itself reason enough to include anything here, per a number of rules, from not giving undue weight to fringe opinions to not including things that are obviously wrong, even if sourced to what is normally a reliable source. Thomas.W talk 15:21, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- So tell me how we're gonna determine "due weight". That's a core issue. See User:Felsic2/Gun_use#Undue_weight. Felsic2 (talk) 16:24, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- Wrong, being sourced isn't by itself reason enough to include anything here, per a number of rules, from not giving undue weight to fringe opinions to not including things that are obviously wrong, even if sourced to what is normally a reliable source. Thomas.W talk 15:21, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- Right. They're totaly different while the Ruger Mini-14 is exactly the same. Whatever. The point is that on Wikipedia we oughta report what the RSes say, not censor stuff that we don't like. If you're claiming that the mainstream media is wrong about the use of AR-15 weapons, or weapons with AR-15 type actions, in mass shootings then please say that. Felsic2 (talk) 14:52, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- Looking about the same and being able to use the same magazines doesn't count, the action, which is what counts in firearms, is totally different (the AR-15 uses direct gas impingement and a recoil buffer in the lower receiver, the MCX uses a gas piston and twin recoil springs in the upper receiver), making the MCX and the AR-15 unrelated. Thomas.W talk 07:38, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- If a source has wrong info then that wrong info shouldn't be used. See User:Felsic2/Gun_use#Newspaper_reporters_often_make_mistakes_about_guns. Since the MCX can accept AR-15 parts, it is not exactly 'totally unrelated'. That doesn't address the general issue of the RS coverage of AR-15 type weapons in mass shootings. Felsic2 (talk) 23:58, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
- The media are very often wrong when claiming that an AR-15 has been used in this or that shooting, as could be seen after the Orlando shootings when all media sources claimed that it was an AR-15, and many continued to do so even after the police had said that it was a Sig_Sauer MCX, a totally unrelated rifle, and not an AR-15. Thomas.W talk 23:52, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
- Given the treatment the rifle receives in mainstream media (one doesn't have to look far) outright removal creates a certain editorial bias by omission. Mark Schierbecker (talk) 04:43, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
- There are enough RSes that correct the error, the controversy is largely manufactured. Orlando is the latest example. I don't think we even have a reliable source for caliber (.300AAC is the default MCX caliber). "AR15" becomes a catchall for all NATO compatible rifles regardless of function. It's like reporting "collisions involving 4-door sedans" as "collisions involving the Ford Taurus", then arguing that they really are Ford Taurus' because they all run unleaded gasoline through them and finally concluding that there is a Ford Taurus collision controversy. Meanwhile, there is no evidence that a Ford Taurus has ever been in a collision because there are no studies with peer review that single it out. The firearm category of "semi-automatic rifle with detachable magazine" is what's controversial and is how virtually all regulations are written but employing it in this article is feeding a non-NPOV agenda that is attempting to simplify a message to a soundbite. "Ban Ford Taurus'" is an easy sell with the catchall phrasing - it looks dangerous if one attributes every collision to Ford Taurus. "Ban 4-door sedans" makes thinking people ask "Wait. All of them?" --DHeyward (talk) 07:51, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
- Is this article solely about the brand-name AR-15, or about generic weapons using the firearms action covered by the expired AR-15 patents? TThe intro makes clear that this is about the generic weapon. There's no comparable topic in automotive articles. If Model-T style cars were being made then that would be similar.
- While there may have been an initial mistake in identifying the weapon used in Orlando, that doesn't negate the fact that the AR-15, and copies, have been the subject of many discussions regarding use in mass shootings. You don't give any policy reason for censoring all mention of that controversy from this article. Please see WP:GUNUSE before repeating commonly used arguments. Felsic2 (talk) 17:41, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
- This is an article about the gun, not politics surrounding features of it. New York and Connecticut ban "AR-15s" and that is politics. The New York SAFE Act compliant guns (see image here) that are no longer considered "assault style weapons" or "AR-15s" as a matter of law and politics is not relevant here and is an AR-15 for our article. The controversy that would appear in this article would necessarily have to be a lot WP:SYNTH to cover exactly what is controversial and if the controversy is actually over anything in the "expired patents" you mentioned. The controversy is obviously not just "AR-15"'s and doesn't cover every variant but rather, the controversy extends to features that are lumped under the "AR-15" as a political talking point. Detachable magazine, large capacity magazine, flash hider, pistol grip and bayonet lug have nothing to do with "AR-15" but are the main points of controversy and are lumped with "AR-15" when discussed in political terms. It's why mistakes such as what happened in Orlando happen all the time. --DHeyward (talk) 21:55, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
- Articles that debunk the claim that ARs are not murder weapons just add to our imperative to cover it. Mark Schierbecker (talk) 04:36, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
- There are enough RSes that correct the error, the controversy is largely manufactured. Orlando is the latest example. I don't think we even have a reliable source for caliber (.300AAC is the default MCX caliber). "AR15" becomes a catchall for all NATO compatible rifles regardless of function. It's like reporting "collisions involving 4-door sedans" as "collisions involving the Ford Taurus", then arguing that they really are Ford Taurus' because they all run unleaded gasoline through them and finally concluding that there is a Ford Taurus collision controversy. Meanwhile, there is no evidence that a Ford Taurus has ever been in a collision because there are no studies with peer review that single it out. The firearm category of "semi-automatic rifle with detachable magazine" is what's controversial and is how virtually all regulations are written but employing it in this article is feeding a non-NPOV agenda that is attempting to simplify a message to a soundbite. "Ban Ford Taurus'" is an easy sell with the catchall phrasing - it looks dangerous if one attributes every collision to Ford Taurus. "Ban 4-door sedans" makes thinking people ask "Wait. All of them?" --DHeyward (talk) 07:51, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
- This article should be about all parts of the AR-15. If the text is too long we could spin out the boring parts. The use of the AR-15s in crime is not a primarily a political issue. Neither are the questions about its reliability. Both are simple matters of history. We include some of the history of the AR-15, we should include all of it. We should follow WP:DUE and devote space to the aspects of the AR-15's existence which have gotten the most attention in reliable sources. Nobody here can seriously argue that there is no attention given to the use of AR-15s in mass shootings. The article has plenty of space for every possible amunition which some AR-15 knock-off can fire. So it should have space for covering the most controversial part of its existence. Felsic2 (talk) 23:01, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
Manufacturers list
This question was asked a long time ago and the material was removed: Do we really need the manufacturers list? Does it really serve to help people understand the AR15 to know that out of all the firearms Remington makes, one happens to be an AR? Niteshift36 (talk) 17:55, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
- Since these rifles are so generic, it's not clear to me why we have any articles about specific models. We don't have articles about individuals brands of washing machines. Safir T-15, Carbon 15, almost every entry in Category:AR-platform firearms... Why bother devoting space to non-notable variants? They can be covered iether in this article or in their manufacturers. Felsic2 (talk) 18:13, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
The list is incomplete and it's also useless, in my opinion, but this article is attracting a lot of vandalism now, and I am paying more attention to that. PrivateThoughts (talk) 15:30, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
- Don't call good-faith editing "vandalism". As for the topic of this thread, the M1911 pistol article is similar - a now-generic weapon with a lot of coverage of manufacturers. So the question remains - what value do discussion of these makers brong to articles? Felsic2 (talk) 22:30, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
- I don't call good-faith editing "vandalism". If you look at many of the recent changes to the article, you will see a lot of vandalism, plain and simple PrivateThoughts (talk) 17:00, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- Why are you talking about vandalism in a thread about manufacturers? Felsic2 (talk) 17:16, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- That's already been made clear in what I said. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PrivateThoughts (talk • contribs) 06:25, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
- Nothing you've said is clear. Niteshift36 (talk) 13:38, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
- That's already been made clear in what I said. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PrivateThoughts (talk • contribs) 06:25, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
- Why are you talking about vandalism in a thread about manufacturers? Felsic2 (talk) 17:16, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- Is there anyone making a case to keep the section? Niteshift36 (talk) 18:50, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
What "AR" stands for
To put and end to the reverts and slo-mo edit-war over what "AR" stands for I've added a reference for it ( https://armalite.com/about-us/history/ ) where Armalite clearly state that "All rifles were designated AR, short for Armalite Rifle."
. Thomas.W talk 18:10, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
I personally wouldn't call that a very useful reference because the Armalite company that actually created the firearm is long gone, and had absolutely nothing in common with the new company except the name. I have left the reference, although it won't do any good. The people changing it to "assault" are not interested in accuracy. PrivateThoughts (talk) 20:25, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
- I don't agree with you about Armalite having been long gone in the formal sense since it never went bankrupt and ceased to exist, it only ceased operations. It was then AFAIK kept alive for many years as a dormant company in order to keep the company name alive. The new Armalite is also currently the best source we have, even if you feel it's questionable as a source (a view I don't share), and having a source is always better than not having one, especially in a case like this where the only real purpose for the source is to make random passers-by think twice before changing "Armalite Rifle" to "Assault Rifle". Thomas.W talk 20:58, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with Thomas.W. MordeKyle (talk) 23:35, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
- If you don't like the Armalite site, try Time magazine [1] or Rolling Stone [2]. Niteshift36 (talk) 00:27, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
- The first article doesn't claim that "AR" stands for "Armalite rifle", nor did I see any references for the source for either article's data. The last people I'd trust would be journalists. PrivateThoughts (talk) 17:04, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- The Time article most certainly does. It says "According to the National Shooting Sports Foundation, “AR” does not stand for “automatic” or “assault” rifle. It stands for “ArmaLite” — the company that created the AR in the 1950s.". The RS reports it and attributes it. This is no different than Time saying "According to Gallup Polls...". Rolling Stone doesn't have to say where they got it. We report what the reliable source says, not how they did their homework. It's not a question of whether or not you personally trust journalists. Both sources easily pass RS. Your reasons for objecting are contrary to police and guidelines. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:18, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with Thomas.W. MordeKyle (talk) 23:35, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
- Whether the company was bankrupt or was "dormant", it had no personnel and I haven't seen any evidence that the new "Armalite" did anything but buy the name and start selling products. If anyone can find a paper trail or a source that's contemporary with the invention of the AR-15, that'd be interesting, but as it is, I see no reason to believe that anyone involved in writing that web page was even alive when the rifle was designed.PrivateThoughts (talk) 21:23, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
- Why are you still fighting about whether Armalite is a valid source or not. Time magazine and Rolling Stone most certainly are reliable sources. They say it. Done. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:03, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
The first article most certainly does not state that AR represents "Armalite Rifle: "According to the National Shooting Sports Foundation, “AR” does not stand for “automatic” or “assault” rifle. It stands for “ArmaLite” — the company that created the AR in the 1950s. And failed 2015 legislation that would have banned some semi-automatic guns did not classify the AR-15 as an assault weapon." So your two trusted sources give contradictory information. One of them lists the size of a .223 Remington bullet as .223 inches in diameter. Wrong again. We have different standards for "reliable". PrivateThoughts (talk) 06:24, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
- The sources report it. You're simply wrong on this. Niteshift36 (talk) 13:38, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
The source are contradictory. PrivateThoughts (talk) 17:00, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
- Time and Rolling Stone don't contradict each other. Both say is stands for Armalite Rifle. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:07, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
Lying won't change what's in the articles. PrivateThoughts (talk) 21:46, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
- There's no lying on my part sunshine, but there's a boatload of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT on yours. You're the only person opposing it and your sole "contribution" to Wikipedia for the past 5 days he been to disrupt this article and engage in unproductive discussions. Niteshift36 (talk) 22:53, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
- How about showing the quotes you (both) want to adduce for your evidence. Lfstevens (talk) 12:46, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
- I provided links to both. You can scroll up just a bit for it. Niteshift36 (talk) 13:42, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
- How about showing the quotes you (both) want to adduce for your evidence. Lfstevens (talk) 12:46, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
Why was "rate of fire" taken off the article?
If you google AR-15 the first hit is this wikipedia page, with a rate of fire listed as "depends on operator's..." - my only conclusion is that someone thought that the rate of fire was either insignificant, or could be used politically against the person who removed the information. Why not allow people to make up their own minds, with wikipedia as a good source of true comprehensive facts? Oathed (talk) 22:38, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
- Because the rate of fire of a semi-automatic firearm does depend on the skill/training of the operator, with a very wide variation between operators, unlike the rate of fire of a fully automatic firearm where anyone, by just keeping the trigger pulled, gets the same rate of fire, regardless of skill/training. Thomas.W talk 22:49, 29 June 2016 (UTC)