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RFC: Robbie Coltrane inclusion vote (Result: rough consensus to include)
- The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Additional explanatory comments:
- On closing:
- The role of an RfC closer is to determine if a consensus exists. The standard, as defined at Wikipedia:Closing discussions, is a rough consensus; further defined at WP:ROUGHCONSENSUS as
the "sense of the group" concerning a particular matter under consideration
. While consensus is not a vote, the proportion of editors in favour of or against a matter is not an irrelevance; after weighting for alignment with policy & guideline, and strength of argument, it is a key factor for the sense of the group. - Where the respondents overwhelmingly fall on one side of the matter, for the minority to prevail, their arguments need to be exceptionally strong or those of the majority exceptionally weak.
- In this case, the close was not made based on a simple head count. After weighting the arguments for alignment with policy & guidelines, and for strength of argument, none of the exclude arguments (neither alone nor in concert) were sufficiently strong as to outweigh the predominant include viewpoint.
- The role of an RfC closer is to determine if a consensus exists. The standard, as defined at Wikipedia:Closing discussions, is a rough consensus; further defined at WP:ROUGHCONSENSUS as
- On the responses:
- In this RfC, no respondents cited core policy (five pillars + COPYVIO + BLP), which might be dispositive; no respondents cited other policy or guidelines (excepting RFCEND & RFCNEUTRAL on procedural grounds). Accordingly, no responses received increased or decreased weight based on alignment/misalignment with policy or guideline.
- No responses appeared to have been made in bad faith; and no responses were discounted for that reason.
- Responses & discussion which, in part, relied on a slippery slope argument carried lower weight for that portion of the response. A consensus for the inclusion of Coltrane does not imply consensus for the inclusion of Alley; and the inclusion of the latter might also reflect consensus. No responses were completely discounted based on this reason. This lower weighting was not a determining factor.
- Responses & discussion which, in part, relied on straw man argument carried lower weight for that portion of the response. None of the include responses were based on notability of Coltrane's film work; none of the include responses were based on "demand from fans"; in the context of this RfC, arguments against these unasserted positions are not strong. No responses were completely discounted based on this reason. This lower weighting was not a determining factor.
- Many of the responses were of the form "is sufficiently foo for inclusion" or "is insufficiently bar for inclusion". These are two-part arguments - i) the standard for inclusion is or ought be (foo/bar); ii) the subject (does/doesn't) meet that standard. In so far as a sense of the group, the foos have it - that is, the consensus of respondents is that notability is the standard, and that Coltrane has it sufficiently to merit inclusion.
- Two respondents referenced sources in support of their arguments. Accordingly, their responses received higher weight than responses which asserted a position without reference to sources.
- On "international notability":
- Four responses, and significant portions of the discussion, made reference to the terms international notability or internationally notable. Two respondents asserting that Coltrane meets this standard; two respondents asserting that he does not.
- To the extent that "notable/notability" is used to mean "documented in independent reliable sources" (the sense as at WP:N), with "international" a modifier resulting in "documented in independent reliable sources published in multiple nations" or similar, the responses by Pickalittletalkalittle & Politrukki are a rebuttal to the assertion that this standard is not met.
- To the extent that "internationally notable/international notability" is meant as a term of art, with a meaning distinct from the sense of "notable/notability" at WP:N, this is a viewpoint which did not gain traction in the RfC responses. NOTE: The use of "notable" in this sense; loosely defined, separate & distinct from its WP:N sense is inopportune. Editors are encouraged to work towards consensus for a well defined, well documented, set of inclusion criteria.
- Some editors asserted a de facto consensus for an inclusion standard based on "international notability" (in some sense of that term), but did not link or reference a discussion forming this consensus. This argument might have carried greater weight if it had referenced such a discussion. This was not a deciding factor; RfC respondents either rejected this standard or felt that it was sufficiently met.
- Four responses, and significant portions of the discussion, made reference to the terms international notability or internationally notable. Two respondents asserting that Coltrane meets this standard; two respondents asserting that he does not.
- Addressing some specific comments & questions below:
Including somebody on the yearly pages purely on the basis of international media coverage has been repudiated (we even have it included on the FAQs of this talk page). The decision ... disregards this entirely
. During the RfC, and explicitly in response to it, an FAQ entry was added. Neither this FAQ entry nor the disruptive nature of its addition influenced the outcome of the RfC. (Nor have the subsequent involved edits to the RfC header influenced this extended close rationale.) Had the FAQ entry pre-dated the RfC or referenced an explicit discussion, it might have carried significant weight; but it did neither.The closer didn't acknowledge Coltrane's lack of international notability.
Consensus of the RfC is that Coltrane does not lack international notability.
- On review, I am confident that the close fairly reflects the consensus of the respondents to the RfC - the sense of this group - and decline to amend it substantively. I have, however, modified the close statement for clarity. - Ryk72 talk 22:13, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
should Robbie Coltrane be included in the 2022 article Yes or No 4me689 (talk) 21:56, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
Comments
should Robbie Coltrane be included in the 2022 article yes or no 4me689 (talk) 21:56, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
Yes
- Looking over the current list for 2022, he's as notable internationally as others who are included. It's close, but his inclusion seems justified. Nemov (talk) 23:48, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- He is as notable as some of the others in the list. Mnair69 (talk) 08:44, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- I'd say yes, because his most notable role was not as a supporting character in the Harry Potter films but the lead role in Cracker, for which he won the BAFTA for Best Actor an unprecedented three times in a row. I believe that it was widely seen around the globe. Deb (talk) 13:20, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with Deb on this onePaulRKil (talk) 14:31, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- Per above. _-_Alsor (talk) 09:13, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- Notable and should be included. Wjfox2005 (talk) 10:20, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- Robbie Coltrane is a notable actor whose death was covered by numerous news sources such as USA Today, The New York Times, and BBC. Pickalittletalkalittle (talk) 17:53, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- Coltrane is internationally notable. I constructed a sample list based on Black Kite's and my own sources from the initial discussion: France24, Belgium, Norway, Brazil, Canada, India, Nigeria, Switzerland, Al Jazeera, New Zealand, South Africa, Spain, Gulf News, Denmark, Netherlands, Finland, Germany, Italy, Sweden, Hungary, Mexico, and Estonia. The coverage of Coltrane's dead is significant. How much more is needed? Coltrane has been internationally notable at least since Cracker gained recognition. BAFTA awards contribute to notability, but they are not the main factor. Politrukki (talk) 17:26, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
- Sure why not. Politrukki has provided a number of reliable sources for international notability of death. Based on the random nature of the people on the list, the result comes down to the editors who make the effort for inclusion. --Guest2625 (talk) 03:29, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
No
- As per everything I said in the original discussion. He won no major international acting awards, and his most prominent roles internationally were supporting roles in internationally notable franchises (one of which, the Bond franchise, was as a minor character in two films) - and as has been long established here, actors don’t automatically gain the notability of the films they appear in, and international coverage does not automatically equate international notability. Most casual fans of Harry Potter or people in general who would recognise the character of Hagrid wouldn’t be able to name the actor or other roles he was in. Other actors of comparable levels of notability to Coltrane are routinely excluded here without controversy, and I don’t think this should be any exception, and making it an exception would be an aberration and would set a bad precedent here. TheScrubby (talk) 22:21, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- I tend to agree with TheScrubby. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 11:38, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- (Summoned by bot) Although I'm a Briton and close to Coltrane's age (and therefore have known him as a capable character actor since The Comic Strip Presents and Tutti Frutti ), I'm inclined to agree with TheScrubby - he isn't THAT well known to an international audience. Dare I say that I've never seen a Potter film, though I've seen clips of Coltrane's Mummerset-ish eccentric. Pincrete (talk) 15:16, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- He's not internationally notable; he merely has fans in other countries, largely due to playing a supporting character in the Harry Potter films. We shouldn't include people on the basis of demand from fans. If we did, we'd include Technoblade & Leslie Jordan. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:57, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
Discussion
I am going to open an RFC on the inclusion of Robbie Coltrane because the other discussion was disputed, I'm going to Ping everyone who was on the other discussion @PaulRKil:, @Black Kite:, @TheScrubby:, @Jim Michael 2:, @Alsoriano97:, @InvadingInvader:, @Politrukki:, @Wjfox2005:, @Dimadick:, @Amakuru:, @The Rambling Man:, and @Pawnkingthree: to let them know this is discussion exist. 4me689 (talk) 21:56, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- @4me689 please refrain from pinging me in discussions. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 22:01, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- I'm neutral on this...I think that he isn't as internationally notable as a few other entries, but he remains immensely popular around the globe, so I'm honestly stuck. If he remains popular across the globe and many editors are in favor of his inclusion, then I don't see a problem with him being included, and I would choose to include/exclude Coltrane if a majority of editors support one side for whatever reason (aside from "I'm voting for/against inclusion just to make some editor mad"). InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 22:05, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- The thing is, Coltrane was never “immensely popular” around the globe. His character of Hagrid was internationally recognised, and Harry Potter is obviously internationally notable. But actors, especially supporting actors, don’t automatically gain the notability of the roles they played, and most casual fans or people in general who would recognise Hagrid would not recognise the actor’s name. Essentially, we can’t confuse the notability of a character with the actor who played him. Furthermore, Coltrane won no major international acting awards, be it as Hagrid or as anything else. At this point, it almost feels like rehashing of all the points said in the original discussion, to which I don’t have much more to add. But the inclusion of Coltrane would be an aberration when other actors of his level of notability are regularly excluded here. TheScrubby (talk) 22:24, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- Also why is this RFC being added to unrelated fields such as politics and religion? TheScrubby (talk) 22:55, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- I don't know, I just copied it from the one on Wikipedia years. 4me689 (talk) 22:59, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- It's only relevant to the first two of the six - society & biographies. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 09:23, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- I don't know, I just copied it from the one on Wikipedia years. 4me689 (talk) 22:59, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
- I’m a little confused about something: Deb says that Coltrane “won the BAFTA for Best Actor an unprecedented three times in a row” however TheScrubby says Coltrane “won no major international acting awards.” Which one is it? FireInMe (talk) 13:48, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- BAFTA, like the Emmys and the Logies, is a primarily domestic award and wouldn’t be what we’d count as a major international acting award. TheScrubby (talk) 18:02, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- He means no major awards from countries other than the UK. The people who vote for awards favour their own country's people, films, TV shows etc. Having this RfC will likely lead to fans of other people of a similar notability level - Gilbert Gottfried, Paul Sorvino, David Warner, Marsha Hunt etc. - asking for the same ridiculous amount of debate in regard to their inclusion. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:42, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- The BAFTA jurors are selected from multiple countries though. Doesn’t this solve bias towards British only actors? FireInMe (talk) 16:13, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- I'm an American and I'm very familiar with the BAFTA's as a prestigious award. What are the major international acting awards? I'd put BAFTA right behind the Academy Awards. The Golden Globes are a bit of a joke. Nemov (talk) 18:36, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- The BAFTAs are clearly Anglocentric. We shouldn't include people whose only awards are from their own country. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 19:41, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- There’s non-British people that has won BAFTAs though, and the juries are multinational. FireInMe (talk) 21:26, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, but there's a pro-British bias & most of the foreign jurors will be Anglophiles. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 09:23, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- Sadly, this is also true of the Academy Awards. Winners of the two have been almost identical for most of their history. Deb (talk) 10:21, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- Awards' juries usually have a bias in favour of people, films etc. of their own country. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:18, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- Going by the BAFTAs discussion, it looks like the outcome is that we would tend to include non-British recipients and that it is otherwise considered a predominately domestic award - which means that the point against Coltrane's inclusion on the basis of lack of major international acting awards still firmly applies. TheScrubby (talk) 00:05, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- Awards' juries usually have a bias in favour of people, films etc. of their own country. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:18, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- Sadly, this is also true of the Academy Awards. Winners of the two have been almost identical for most of their history. Deb (talk) 10:21, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, but there's a pro-British bias & most of the foreign jurors will be Anglophiles. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 09:23, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- There’s non-British people that has won BAFTAs though, and the juries are multinational. FireInMe (talk) 21:26, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- The BAFTAs are clearly Anglocentric. We shouldn't include people whose only awards are from their own country. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 19:41, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- I'm an American and I'm very familiar with the BAFTA's as a prestigious award. What are the major international acting awards? I'd put BAFTA right behind the Academy Awards. The Golden Globes are a bit of a joke. Nemov (talk) 18:36, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- The BAFTA jurors are selected from multiple countries though. Doesn’t this solve bias towards British only actors? FireInMe (talk) 16:13, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
- Also pinging @Wjfox2005: for an elaboration of his comment - given his only other comment with relation to Coltrane was accusations of trolling against those who have (very good reason to have) firm reservations about Coltrane's international notability and suitability for inclusion here. TheScrubby (talk) 00:05, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- Just to add - I'm not trying to claim that BAFTAs are not primarily domestic awards. Coltrane's Best Actor award was a TV BAFTA, not a Film BAFTA, and it's unknown for anyone from outside the UK to win that. As with the Emmys, I imagine. Deb (talk) 09:27, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- The primarily domestic nature of the BAFTAs, Emmys & Logies are the reason that people from their respective countries winning them doesn't indicate international notability. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:28, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Pickalittletalkalittle: read the top of this section, before you put down you comment. 4me689 (talk) 17:56, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- @4me689: would you kindly remove
(Just Note: international coverage ≠ international notability)
from the RFC question per WP:RFCNEUTRAL? I think I could do that myself, but I don't want to step on anyone's toes. I don't think that minor infraction has affected anyone's opinion so far, so no need to notify participants. Politrukki (talk) 17:38, 5 November 2022 (UTC)- I put that there cuz I want people to know that they need to think about his Awards, not his international coverage. and there's a long-held consensus here that international coverage ≠ international notability, nevertheless I will remove it 4me689 (talk) 17:50, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Pickalittletalkalittle: @Politrukki: We are not going to include Coltrane on the basis of international coverage. That has long ceased to be a criteria for inclusion on the yearly pages - how many times does it need to be said that international coverage does not automatically equate international notability and in no way leads to automatic inclusion? That is a consensus that has long been established here (and indeed has now also been included in the FAQs on the top of the page), and we are not going to overturn it for a minor actor like Coltrane. TheScrubby (talk) 23:11, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
- I put that there cuz I want people to know that they need to think about his Awards, not his international coverage. and there's a long-held consensus here that international coverage ≠ international notability, nevertheless I will remove it 4me689 (talk) 17:50, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
Noting that I have reverted a premature and involved close by User:TheScrubby. Per WP:RFCEND, RfC's should generally run for 30 days, unless a consensus is determined before that (which in this case, it has not). Additionally, as TheScrubby has been a participant in this RfC (and is thus involved), it is highly inappropriate and borderline dishonest for them to determine consensus in their favor in such a split discussion. Curbon7 (talk) 03:56, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Curbon7: Okay, I wasn't aware of the 30 day rule for RFCs, though having said that discussions over Coltrane had been taking place intermittently since the 14th of October (granted, also not 30 days since but still a fair while) and it's clear that there is no consensus in favour of inclusion and that those that spoke in favour (and the onus is on those arguing in favour of inclusion) have completely disregarded and failed to address the very substantial arguments against inclusion and Coltrane's level of notability - and instead either just saying he's notable without backing it up or using only international media sources when international coverage does not automatically equate international notability, as has been established for some time here. There was no indication that any of that would have changed, and that at this point both sides were merely repeating and rehashing the same arguments already made - and that consequently it's clear that no consensus can be reached, which is also why the original discussion started on the 14th also ended. TheScrubby (talk) 04:12, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Curbon7:, should I re-add the "Just Note: international coverage ≠ international notability" thing on top of the question that was there before or is that a violation of WP:RFCNEUTRAL, cuz there's a long-held consensus here that international coverage is not equal to international notability
- (also you mind go and reply at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Years#Survey) 4me689 (talk) 17:15, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
- Just a note that I have subbmited a WP:RFCL for this RfC. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 16:32, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- Appeal against decision to include - the decision by @Ryk72: was clearly on the basis primarily of international coverage as per Politrukki's comment. Yet it has been made clear that such grounds are absolutely insufficient for these pages, and that over the last couple of years the notion of including somebody on the yearly pages purely on the basis of international media coverage has been repudiated (we even have it included on the FAQs of this talk page). The decision by Ryk72 I believe disregards this entirely, and therefore has made Coltrane's inclusion here all the more of an aberration. At the end of the day none of the main points against Coltrane's inclusion (particularly by myself and @Jim Michael 2:) were sufficiently addressed by those who voted in favour of inclusion. This'll most likely end as a tenuous case of borderline inclusion purely on the basis of a head count of votes, but in no way should this result be treated as anything other than an aberration and an exception to the rule. TheScrubby (talk) 14:59, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- I back this appeal; including him goes against our guidelines. Many domestic figures of a similar level of notability - such as Kirstie Alley - can have their inclusion argued for on the same basis. They have awards - but only from their own country. They have fans in many countries, so the media in many countries reported their deaths. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:57, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- I don't support this appeal. The closing editor summed it up well. I disagree that Kirstie Alley could be argued on the same basis as I would oppose her inclusion on this list. There's a bit of subjectivity here and this doesn't seem like something worth opening up again. Thanks! Nemov (talk) 16:39, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- The closer didn't acknowledge Coltrane's lack of international notability. Alley's awards are of similar importance to his & the media coverage of their deaths is similar. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 20:52, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- Noting, as closer, that a) I have seen this; b) the process for challenging closes is at WP:CLOSECHALLENGE; c) per that process, I am happy to review, and either amend the close or expand the close rationale, and will attempt to do so in the next 32 hours. - Ryk72 talk 22:32, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- The "FAQs" at the top of the page are not Wikipedia policy or guidelines, they're just the opinion of one or more editors who decided to edit this page at a particular point in time. What is policy, however, is WP:DUE, which mandates us to give airtime to things in mainspace proportionate to their coverage in reliable sources. That Coltrane received exactly such coverage upon his death and is therefore included is compliant with the policy, and the closer did a good job. Wikipedians don't decide what's important and what isn't, we merely reflect what reliable sources decide. — Amakuru (talk) 22:54, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- No. The FAQs come as a result of consensus emerging over decisions and discussions to do with inclusion of figures on this page for almost two years now, and is not merely a prerogative or opinion of “one or more editors”. The consensus built up over these Talk pages and implemented by nearly every regular contributor to these pages is that international coverage does not automatically equate to international notability (and I’ll let @Jim Michael 2: further elaborate on that point), and that’s the way things are here. Other pages and Wiki features may have different guidelines and standards for what’s sufficiently notable, but for here we include figures based on international notability, and minor actors whose deaths get international coverage because they played a supporting character in an internationally notable franchise (and as has also been established here for some time, actors do not automatically gain the notability of the films they’re in) with fans in many countries, but whose names are virtually unknown outside of said fanbases are not examples of sufficient international notability. What you’re advocating for would also see other minor character actors with scant international notability such as Kirstie Alley included. TheScrubby (talk) 04:01, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
Subsequent comments
This is easily the most contentious discussion we've had on this page in perhaps ever...I think that post consensus, and after reading all these arguments, I would have to agree with the closer and side with the consensus that was decided, even if it didn't end up that way. I think ultimately, I would also challenge Scrubby and Jim's position on coverage and notability; I see that international coverage generally does, but not always does, equate to international notability. The media and the coverage it provides, for the most part, does show what people care about in general, and ultimately, the people should and do decide what is notable. It's our "job" (yes I know it's technically all volunteer work but "job" is an easier word to use) as Wikipedia editors to do more so the people's bidding and equally weigh both general opinions and a vocal minority. I would additionally also propose that people who choose to exclude entries, both deaths and events, be required to justify why they say "Insufficient international notability"; if they can prove that person X should be excluded because they didn't win any major championships, sure. But if they just say "insufficient international notability" and nothing more, really man? It's like saying something is unconstitutional without citing which article/amendment would override it. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 08:42, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- The only discussion on here this year that's anything like this one is that regarding Gilbert Gottfried, but it turned out that the three accounts arguing for his inclusion & greatly overstating his notability were operated by the same fan, who's since been blocked.
- We've included Coltrane simply because of his popularity, because his media coverage merely reflects that. By that reasoning, we'd include several Kardashians & Jenners. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 12:50, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
Microsoft’s (now proposed) acquisition of Activision Blizzard (Result: no consensus)
There was briefly a discussion about this event months ago that proved inconclusive, as per above. So consider this a revival of the discussion, with the central question being do you think Microsoft’s acquisition of Activision Blizzard has sufficient international notability/significance for inclusion here, or is it a primarily domestic event? TheScrubby (talk) 21:40, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
- include, one of the biggest purchases of the year, which meant a lot of things for companies and Wall Street. 4me689 (talk) 21:59, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
- Borderline include. Yes, they're both American companies, but their influence is of a worldwide importance within the gaming industry. Assuming this deal is completed, this deal will put Microsoft and their franchises in a position where they can better compete against Tencent specifically. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 02:47, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
- Borderline include both companies have massive global reach and I believe it is one of the largest videogame acquisitions PaulRKil (talk) 13:52, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude because it's a domestic event due to both companies being American. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:12, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
- If two American companies have major international impacts on an industry, it should be listed as an international event. It's domestic in technicalities only, and this view ignores effect in favor of solely looking at identity. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 06:49, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- What major international impacts has this acquisition caused? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:43, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- If two American companies have major international impacts on an industry, it should be listed as an international event. It's domestic in technicalities only, and this view ignores effect in favor of solely looking at identity. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 06:49, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude - Obviously a domestic event, and the fact that there's money involved isn't relevant. Incidentally, when User:InvadingInvader expanded this event (introduced into the Year article by the well-meaning User:The Optimistic One), they may not have realised that you are not really supposed to copy text word-for-word from another article (2022 in the United States) and you are supposed to mention this in the edit summary as well - see Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia. A strange rule, I know, but there it is; you'll know next time. Deb (talk) 15:42, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude with the possibility of a future Inclusion. It's really a wait and see of how impactful the acquisition is. So, while I'm not downright opposed, I do think it should be placed on the back burner for the time being. FireInMe (talk) 03:24, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
- I can agree with this take, yeah. TheScrubby (talk) 07:23, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
- Include. For the reasons I gave previously. Wjfox2005 (talk) 08:46, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
- If it's not certain, there's no way its inclusion can be justified. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 20:08, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
Too many people with importance inline tags (Result: no consensus for Costa; exclusion for the others)
There has been too many people with important inline tags in November deaths section here are all of them
- Ela Bhatt, Indian social activist and chancellor
- Gal Costa, Brazilian singer
- Kevin Conroy, American voice actor
- Gallagher, American comedian
We need opinions on these people any thoughts??? 4me689 (talk) 17:12, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
- Ela Bhatt: Borderline. I really don't know if which way it'll tilt.
- Gal Costa: Borderline Inclusion. Notable in the Latin music world, which spans multiple countries.
- Kevin Conroy: Inclusion, awarded voice actor and well known on every inhabitable continent.
- Gallagher: Unsure, the reason I say that is because of unsourced part on his article which states: "Gallagher's 13 TV comedy specials is second most all-time, behind only George Carlin", if confirmed by a reputable source then Gallagher will be a clear inclusion as George Carlin ranks highly on comedians and if Gallager's specials are second to Carlin then he is in the top also.
- FireInMe (talk) 21:32, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
- Include Costa, Exclude Conroy, Neutral on the other two. TheScrubby (talk) 22:04, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
- @TheScrubby Yeah, I got to agree with you in regards to Costa. Looking into her a little more I'll shift my stance from Borderline Inclusion to clear Inclusion. I do however disagree with you on Conroy he should be included. I would like to see others thoughts. FireInMe (talk) 22:18, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
- Firm disagree with Conroy; he had scant international notability, won no major international acting awards, and his name would not be recognised outside of hardcore fans of his work. Nowhere near say, Mel Blanc levels of notability. Belongs in 2022 deaths in the United States. TheScrubby (talk) 23:34, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
- I wouldn't say scant as a Trend search stretching back nearly two decades (2004-present) lights up multiple countries in regards to Conroy. But, I could agree with that it's not sufficient enough and switch my stance from Inclusion to Borderline Exclusion. FireInMe (talk) 23:55, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
- Firm disagree with Conroy; he had scant international notability, won no major international acting awards, and his name would not be recognised outside of hardcore fans of his work. Nowhere near say, Mel Blanc levels of notability. Belongs in 2022 deaths in the United States. TheScrubby (talk) 23:34, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
- @TheScrubby Yeah, I got to agree with you in regards to Costa. Looking into her a little more I'll shift my stance from Borderline Inclusion to clear Inclusion. I do however disagree with you on Conroy he should be included. I would like to see others thoughts. FireInMe (talk) 22:18, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude all - Only Bhatt has significant international notability, and I don't think that's sufficient.
- I agree that Conroy's notability is domestic & well below that of Blanc.
- Costa's article doesn't indicate that she was successful in any country other than Brazil.
- Doing the second-most of something doesn't indicate any international notability; Gallagher is nowhere near as notable as Carlin.
- We shouldn't become led by pop culture & fans. Thousands of entertainers have fans in multiple countries & the media coverage they receive is because of that. If we were to include people & events on that basis, we'd include James Michael Tyler for being in most eps of one of the world's most popular & successful sitcoms of all time. People don't gain the notability of all the works they've been involved with. The pop culture & fan route would also lead to us including a large number of socialites & reality show participants (such as Jade Goody, for appearing in reality shows in two countries), actors who've appeared in notable works in multiple countries (such as Rachel Blanchard & Ed Westwick), celebrity weddings & high-profile murders such as those of Sarah Everard & Gabby Petito. Fans of entertainers - including Bob Saget, Louie Anderson, Gilbert Gottfried, Technoblade, Marsha Hunt, Robbie Coltrane & Leslie Jordan - have been very persistent in repeatedly adding them to this article. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 19:30, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- Let's focus on Gal Costa both TheScrubby and I see notability in her, but you say differently. There's too many opposing takes on the same person. FireInMe (talk) 22:18, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- We need to go by the WP articles of each person. Costa's doesn't indicate significant international notability. If she performed, won awards, charted etc. in other countries, that should be stated. Brazil is the only country in the Americas which has Portuguese as its main language. In order to be popular in other countries in the Americas, she'd have had to sing in Spanish, but her article doesn't even say if she spoke Spanish. If she sung at concerts, charted or won awards outside Brazil, that should be stated in her article. It's no good for someone on here to - for example - claim that 5% of people in Argentina & 2% in Chile thought she was great. The article would need something like: she frequently performed in concerts at large venues in Bogotá, Caracas & Lima, at which she sung in Spanish. Compare to Shakira's article, which makes clear her great international notability & the fact that she often performs in both Spanish & English. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 23:26, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- "She recorded four more albums in the '70s. In the '80s, she gained international exposure, touring through Japan, France, Israel, Argentina, the U.S., Portugal, Italy, and others." Source: https://www.allmusic.com/artist/gal-costa-mn0000191699/biography FireInMe (talk) 12:09, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
- And she was scheduled to play in London, England on April 22, 2023: https://www.songkick.com/concerts/40521133-gal-costa-at-union-chapel FireInMe (talk) 12:12, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
- Is AllMusic a RS? If so, that info should be added to her article. The Career section of it says she recorded songs in Portuguese, Spanish & English, but there's no ref to back that. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 13:25, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
- We need to go by the WP articles of each person. Costa's doesn't indicate significant international notability. If she performed, won awards, charted etc. in other countries, that should be stated. Brazil is the only country in the Americas which has Portuguese as its main language. In order to be popular in other countries in the Americas, she'd have had to sing in Spanish, but her article doesn't even say if she spoke Spanish. If she sung at concerts, charted or won awards outside Brazil, that should be stated in her article. It's no good for someone on here to - for example - claim that 5% of people in Argentina & 2% in Chile thought she was great. The article would need something like: she frequently performed in concerts at large venues in Bogotá, Caracas & Lima, at which she sung in Spanish. Compare to Shakira's article, which makes clear her great international notability & the fact that she often performs in both Spanish & English. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 23:26, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- Let's focus on Gal Costa both TheScrubby and I see notability in her, but you say differently. There's too many opposing takes on the same person. FireInMe (talk) 22:18, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude all. Internationally notable, but not enough to meet our threshold compared to our other entries. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 01:49, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- If she sang to large crowds at concerts in several countries, that'd make her internationally notable enough - but her article doesn't say she did. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:10, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
Vote
sign your name and put yes, no, or neutral on all the people listed below, also know that the James foebertin responses are not my responses\and not my opinions they're only there for examples 4me689 (talk) 22:43, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- pinging everyone from the other discussion @FireInMe: @Jim Michael 2: @TheScrubby: to come down to this discussion 4me689 (talk) 22:45, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
Ela Bhatt
- Exclude - more international notability than the other 3, but not enough. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 23:26, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude - per lack of international notability. GoodDay (talk) 05:57, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
Gal Costa
- Exclude - little evidence in her article that she has significant international notability. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 23:26, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude - lack of international notability. GoodDay (talk) 05:57, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
Kevin Conroy
- Exclude - notable only in the US. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 23:26, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude for reasons I already stated above. TheScrubby (talk) 23:32, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude - lack of international notability. GoodDay (talk) 05:57, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude - as per above 4me689 (talk) 17:32, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
Gallagher
- Exclude - notable only in the US. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 23:26, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude - lack of international notability. GoodDay (talk) 05:57, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude per above. I thought he had passed away some years ago... _-_Alsor (talk) 19:29, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude per the above. Deb (talk) 18:32, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
Nobel Prizes section (Result: retain/status quo)
How much detail should be included? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 13:25, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
- I like what it is right now I would argue that the 2022 article has been looking more better than ever before. I don't think we need images on the Nobel section, I was stupid to add images on the Nobel Peace Prize section. 4me689 (talk) 15:48, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
- The Nobel Prize section should be deleted from all 'Year in...' pages. PS - We already have an article with a list of all the Nobel Prize winners. GoodDay (talk) 22:40, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
- you know, @GoodDay:, what I'm willing to agree with you on, is deleting the Nobel Peace Prize section (even though we disagree on a lot of things) here at least this time we found common ground, though I'm going to warn you you're going to be in a very small minority, cuz when I initially went to this talk page to talk about deleting the Nobel Peace Prize section, everyone but me and Jim Michael, wanted to keep it, even Deb who would normally agree with you wanted to keep the section. 4me689 (talk) 22:52, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
- I believe at the moment, you should be concentrating on something else. GoodDay (talk) 22:55, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
- you know, @GoodDay:, what I'm willing to agree with you on, is deleting the Nobel Peace Prize section (even though we disagree on a lot of things) here at least this time we found common ground, though I'm going to warn you you're going to be in a very small minority, cuz when I initially went to this talk page to talk about deleting the Nobel Peace Prize section, everyone but me and Jim Michael, wanted to keep it, even Deb who would normally agree with you wanted to keep the section. 4me689 (talk) 22:52, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
- Looks fine right now. Doesn't seem to damage the article. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 19:26, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
- Furthermore, we should not be having these mini-votes on what to include or exclude in Year pages. Such decisions should be made in an RFC, preferably at WP:YEARS. -- GoodDay (talk) 22:46, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
- A discussion on WP:YEARS should be linked from here so that it this article's regulars know about it. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 20:35, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
- It's absolutely 100% fine as it is now and should not be deleted. These are some of humanity's greatest and most notable achievements in their respective fields, and deserve a mention. We had this discussion before anyway. Wjfox2005 (talk) 07:44, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
- That mention should be in the form of a single entry in Events. A separate section is unwarranted. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 20:35, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
- I think its worth keeping. The Nobel prizes map humanity's advancement. Finding X-Rays, radioactivity, understanding atoms better, forming the Red Cross and many other Nobel-winning feats are very much notable and winning one of these awards is a testament to it. It concisely recognises the most important inventions, discoveries, peace missions and writings of the year. Personally, I'd be willing to disregard the Nobel in Literature due to many other writing awards and milestones being measurable but we can't include all Nobel Prizes bar one. The Voivodeship King (talk) 23:15, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
- No-one's disputing their importance, but why should they have their own section? Doing that is strong implying that they're by far the most important event of each year. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:10, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- I think its worth keeping. The Nobel prizes map humanity's advancement. Finding X-Rays, radioactivity, understanding atoms better, forming the Red Cross and many other Nobel-winning feats are very much notable and winning one of these awards is a testament to it. It concisely recognises the most important inventions, discoveries, peace missions and writings of the year. Personally, I'd be willing to disregard the Nobel in Literature due to many other writing awards and milestones being measurable but we can't include all Nobel Prizes bar one. The Voivodeship King (talk) 23:15, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
- That mention should be in the form of a single entry in Events. A separate section is unwarranted. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 20:35, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
- Furthermore, we should not be having these mini-votes on what to include or exclude in Year pages. Such decisions should be made in an RFC, preferably at WP:YEARS. -- GoodDay (talk) 22:46, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
Bankruptcy of FTX (Result: no consensus, continued in RFC)
@Jim Michael 2 removed my entry on the crash of FTX, claiming that this has more to do with Antigua+Barbuda and the Bahamas instead of internationally. I vehemently disagree with this prospect; FTX may technically be headquartered in one of those Caribbean nations, but FTX's collapse sufficiently fulfills our international criteria given that it is (or was) one of the most widely trusted cryptocurrency firms/exchanges, FTX's influence within major financial capitals (as well as in the United States government and culture), FTX filing for bankruptcy in the United States instead of the Bahamas or Antigua+Barbuda, and FTX's truly international presence in nearly every place where crypto is legal or not dependent on regulation. Given that the collapse has also sent Bitcoin and Ethereum prices on a wild ride, and additionally taking into consideration how cryptocurrencies are more comparable to internationally-traded commodities rather than domestic stocks, as well as much of the media comparing FTX's collapse to being a "Lehman Brothers" or "Enron" moment (see CNN, Business Insider, and the India Times along with many others I can't fit in), this should more than suffice as an international event. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 19:26, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
- It's nowhere near as big as Lehman or Enron. International businesses fail frequently; it's rarely important enough for main year articles. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 20:35, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
- The future of Bitcoin and Ethereum in the world economy is hazy, but if this collapse is part of a larger chain of events that affects the world more greatly, such as cryptocurrency returning tot obscurity, it would without a doubt be notable for inclusion. I think it merits inclusion for the time being, but it would be worthwhile to discuss this in a few months to see if it affected anything in the long term. If not, I'd be leaning towards exclusion if it was a singular event. The Voivodeship King (talk) 23:09, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
- It'd be WP:CRYSTAL to assume it'll be part of a domino effect. Even then, it's not usual for main year articles to include steps of a business type's decline. We don't include various companies that failed due to the Great Recession or the COVID-19 pandemic. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 23:37, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
- I would agree...the article Cryptocurrency bubble lists it as an event contributing to the "bursting" of the bubble. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 23:17, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
- Main year articles don't include every contributory event to a bubble bursting. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 23:37, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
- I agree that not every contributory event deserves inclusion, but this is a key event both on its own and if the bubble does burst. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 00:13, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- In what respect is it a key event on its own? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 00:19, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- The collapse disrupted the cryptocurrency market heavily impacted Bitcoin prices, which increased by 20% in the immediate aftermath (see here) but later collapsed as seen by Forbes. Bitcoin has now wiped away all of its COVID-era gains and erasing $200 billion from many cryptocurrencies, including Bitcoin and Ethereum.
- WIRED magazine highlights that many cryptocurrency traders lost much of their fortune upon the collapse of FTX, with some traders across the world (such as the lead example provided by WIRED) losing 97% of his assets; Bloomberg has also highlighted that many across the world have seen their assets locked out of. As seen in The Guardian, members of the British Parliament were briefed that many institutional investors had lost millions due to the collapse. In the US, Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen is joining increasing calls to regulate cryptocurrency (see Coindesk). Coindesk further notes that the collapse of FTX is sparking talk of regulation not just in the US and the UK but in the Bahamas as well. And philanthropists and scientists relying on FTX, especially those working on climate change, lost their funding as well. Not too much in the cryptocurrency world gets this international. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 00:42, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- Major international losses to both individuals & orgs are commonplace. That doesn't make them important international events. It's long been well-known that cryptocurrency prices are very volatile. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:10, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- When an entire global industry been dragged down, though, and various significant losses to firms and individuals from Canada to Cambodia all centralize from one event or series of events, it might not justify the inclusion of all those events, but inclusion of the most inciting incident here shouldn't be hampered. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 20:44, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- Did many major international companies have most of their assets in cryptocurrencies, causing them to go bankrupt as a result of the fall in the prices of them? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 22:00, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- Broadly construed, as cited in the list of sources in my previous comment, many major and minor firms listed had a large part of their assets, either a majority, minority, or plurality, in at least part cryptocurrency. Also consider, as previously mentioned, many individuals had a large part of their net worth (in some cases, up to 97% of their assets), in cryptocurrencies traded on FTX. They were all locked out of their assets. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 22:34, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- Did many major international companies have most of their assets in cryptocurrencies, causing them to go bankrupt as a result of the fall in the prices of them? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 22:00, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- When an entire global industry been dragged down, though, and various significant losses to firms and individuals from Canada to Cambodia all centralize from one event or series of events, it might not justify the inclusion of all those events, but inclusion of the most inciting incident here shouldn't be hampered. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 20:44, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- Major international losses to both individuals & orgs are commonplace. That doesn't make them important international events. It's long been well-known that cryptocurrency prices are very volatile. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:10, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- In what respect is it a key event on its own? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 00:19, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- I agree that not every contributory event deserves inclusion, but this is a key event both on its own and if the bubble does burst. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 00:13, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- Main year articles don't include every contributory event to a bubble bursting. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 23:37, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
- The future of Bitcoin and Ethereum in the world economy is hazy, but if this collapse is part of a larger chain of events that affects the world more greatly, such as cryptocurrency returning tot obscurity, it would without a doubt be notable for inclusion. I think it merits inclusion for the time being, but it would be worthwhile to discuss this in a few months to see if it affected anything in the long term. If not, I'd be leaning towards exclusion if it was a singular event. The Voivodeship King (talk) 23:09, 15 November 2022 (UTC)
- Include, this is by far one of the biggest events to happen in the crypto world. FTX's bankruptcy along with the subsequent hack that was reported yesterday has dragged down the entire cryptocurrency market significantly. PaulRKil (talk) 13:53, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- How can cryptocurrencies be of great importance to the world? We don't include major changes in the values of important currencies in main year articles, so why include this? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:38, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- Cryptocurrency is volatile, but it's still something that a lot of people around the world from all countries are involved in and even more follow. Inclusion should be a no-brainer. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 20:41, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- That's also true of the value of many currencies, as well as oil, gold, etc. We don't include major changes in the prices of those, or the effects those price changes cause. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 22:00, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- False...we have the OPEC production cut in October listed. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 22:29, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- That entry only mentions a production cut, not a change in price. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 22:44, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- The production cut caused a change in prices. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 05:41, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, but that isn't mentioned in this article. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:43, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- Because it's a logical assumption one can make and an instance of WP:BLUE. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 19:35, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- Many readers wouldn't know that. If editors thought it important they'd have added the percentage or number of dollars the price moved by to that entry. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 20:26, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- That's beyond the point. We're not the Simple English Wikipedia where everything needs to be explained to an incredibly specific amount of detail. We as a wiki can reasonably assume people know basic economics. Both OPEC's October cut and FTX's collapse are major events in some of the most internationally-followed industries. We've done this before; as of writing this comment, 2008's first collage image is the Lehman Brothers HQ in NYC right after their collapse, the Dot-com bubble is featured twice on 2000, the sub-prime mortgage crisis is prominently featured in 2007, 2020 prominently features a Russo-Saudi oil price war, and too many more examples to fit into this reply. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 20:49, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- Simple WP has much less detail than here. Its main year articles are long only because they lack year by country & topic subarticles.
- You're sure that the collapse of this company - which the large majority of people haven't heard of - is as important as each of those events? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 21:07, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- I am sure, and based on the amount of naming rights FTX itself has acquired and the international coverage it has attained, it more than meets our thresholds for inclusion. According to the sources compiled in the articles FTX financial crisis and FTX (company), the collapse of FTX is rippling across the industry. BlockFi, a major cryptocurrency lending firm, is widely believed by many RS's to file for bankruptcy (see Bloomberg and the WSJ), and BlockFi is only one example; multiple other firms have either declared bankruptcy or taken huge financial losses. Don't forget all those previously-mentioned people who were locked out of 97% of their assets. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 21:21, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- Your argument relies heavily on cryptocurrency being of great importance - to a similar level as mortgages. The industry we're talking about is high-risk trading/betting in pseudocurrencies. Likewise in regard to Activision Blizzard - its importance relies on video games being of great importance. We don't include large changes in the values of currencies, commodities or shares in major companies. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 22:56, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- FTX isn't a large change of value in currencies, commodities, or shares in a major company. FTX is a bankruptcy. And we do include momentous bankruptcies; see Lehman in 2008 and Enron in 2001. In 2010, a banking collapse in Iceland also occurred and is listed on 2010. The argument above more so describes your personal opinion on cryptocurrencies, and while I'm not a fan of crypto either, I don't deny their notability.
- Side note: your point focusing on Activison is false; in 2000, we have the Time Warner AOL merger/acquisition. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 23:28, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- The vast majority of businesses and individuals don't accept cryptocurrencies as payment because they're not proper currencies. Main year articles don't include the vast majority of bankruptcies & this one isn't as important as the others you mention. They don't include the vast majority of mergers, acquisitions etc. either. There should be a subarticle such as 2022 in business, 2022 in economics or 2022 in finance which would include things such as these. There are many things on main year articles which are nowhere near important enough to be on them, because many people add those things & there are nowhere near enough regular editors removing them. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 09:05, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
- Your claim about this not being important is, yet again, FALSE. Where are your sources for proving that this isn't important? I just met with a hedge fund manager and former BlackRock employee last night, and he stated that even BlackRock itself was exposed to the collapse of FTX. Personal experience isn't the only damning evidence for this case either; the NYT lists BlackRock as an investor into FTX which took a loss, along with many other major investment firms. It's also proven that FTX is the biggest financial story of the year which doesn't focus on inflation or governments; see SCMP, the Financial Times, and as of 10:51 Eastern, the front page of the Economist. And that point about being not proper currencies...they're still internationally-traded commodities, and pretty much every major world country except China uses them to an extent. If you think a sub article should be created, why not WP:DIY? I'll help you out on it if you want. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:52, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
- The burden of demonstrating importance is on those who want to include disputed content. Many companies bet on changes in prices of crypto, as they do many other things. Likewise, they invest & trade in many companies. Being the year's most important non-government, non-inflation finance event doesn't make it important enough for a main year article. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:23, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
- I think I've done enough when it comes to demonstrating importance based on the sheer amount of lasting coverage demonstrated from a wide variety of sources as seen above, and keep in mind that as of writing this, you're the only one actively resisting inclusion (and based on such, exclusion potentially can fall under WP:SNOWBALL. And "Being the year's most important non-government, non-inflation finance event doesn't make it important enough for a main year article" isn't a good argument when concerning a major industry which has a significant enough impact on the world economy. I've demonstrated before that a wide scope of people from Filipino individuals to American mega firms have been impacted in some fashion. What more do you want? InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 00:33, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
- Thousands of events are important to something. Bankruptcies, major losses etc. are commonplace. Crypto has been notoriously volatile for the whole of its existence. The vast majority of this discussion has been between you & me. The fact that most of the regular editors here haven't joined this discussion, nor have any non-regulars, shows a lack of interest in it. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 09:25, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
- It's still 3 to 1 in favor of inclusion regardless, at least as of writing, and lack of opinion or interest is better interpreted as neutrality or lack of preference on whether it's in rather than opposition. In principle, I agree that most bankruptcies when it's just a bankruptcy should be excluded. This isn't one of the cases, though, and this is an instance where a mentality of absolutism based solely on the labels of the events fail to show the true extent to what it has caused. Crypto and its volatility shouldn't be downplayed; this is a major event in an international industry which is already causing some to predict that Coinbase, another major firm, will collapse as well (see Barrons and CNBC). You're losing the debate. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:56, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
- Thousands of events are important to something. Bankruptcies, major losses etc. are commonplace. Crypto has been notoriously volatile for the whole of its existence. The vast majority of this discussion has been between you & me. The fact that most of the regular editors here haven't joined this discussion, nor have any non-regulars, shows a lack of interest in it. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 09:25, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
- I think I've done enough when it comes to demonstrating importance based on the sheer amount of lasting coverage demonstrated from a wide variety of sources as seen above, and keep in mind that as of writing this, you're the only one actively resisting inclusion (and based on such, exclusion potentially can fall under WP:SNOWBALL. And "Being the year's most important non-government, non-inflation finance event doesn't make it important enough for a main year article" isn't a good argument when concerning a major industry which has a significant enough impact on the world economy. I've demonstrated before that a wide scope of people from Filipino individuals to American mega firms have been impacted in some fashion. What more do you want? InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 00:33, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
- The burden of demonstrating importance is on those who want to include disputed content. Many companies bet on changes in prices of crypto, as they do many other things. Likewise, they invest & trade in many companies. Being the year's most important non-government, non-inflation finance event doesn't make it important enough for a main year article. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:23, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
- Your claim about this not being important is, yet again, FALSE. Where are your sources for proving that this isn't important? I just met with a hedge fund manager and former BlackRock employee last night, and he stated that even BlackRock itself was exposed to the collapse of FTX. Personal experience isn't the only damning evidence for this case either; the NYT lists BlackRock as an investor into FTX which took a loss, along with many other major investment firms. It's also proven that FTX is the biggest financial story of the year which doesn't focus on inflation or governments; see SCMP, the Financial Times, and as of 10:51 Eastern, the front page of the Economist. And that point about being not proper currencies...they're still internationally-traded commodities, and pretty much every major world country except China uses them to an extent. If you think a sub article should be created, why not WP:DIY? I'll help you out on it if you want. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:52, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
- The vast majority of businesses and individuals don't accept cryptocurrencies as payment because they're not proper currencies. Main year articles don't include the vast majority of bankruptcies & this one isn't as important as the others you mention. They don't include the vast majority of mergers, acquisitions etc. either. There should be a subarticle such as 2022 in business, 2022 in economics or 2022 in finance which would include things such as these. There are many things on main year articles which are nowhere near important enough to be on them, because many people add those things & there are nowhere near enough regular editors removing them. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 09:05, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
- Your argument relies heavily on cryptocurrency being of great importance - to a similar level as mortgages. The industry we're talking about is high-risk trading/betting in pseudocurrencies. Likewise in regard to Activision Blizzard - its importance relies on video games being of great importance. We don't include large changes in the values of currencies, commodities or shares in major companies. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 22:56, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- I am sure, and based on the amount of naming rights FTX itself has acquired and the international coverage it has attained, it more than meets our thresholds for inclusion. According to the sources compiled in the articles FTX financial crisis and FTX (company), the collapse of FTX is rippling across the industry. BlockFi, a major cryptocurrency lending firm, is widely believed by many RS's to file for bankruptcy (see Bloomberg and the WSJ), and BlockFi is only one example; multiple other firms have either declared bankruptcy or taken huge financial losses. Don't forget all those previously-mentioned people who were locked out of 97% of their assets. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 21:21, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- That's beyond the point. We're not the Simple English Wikipedia where everything needs to be explained to an incredibly specific amount of detail. We as a wiki can reasonably assume people know basic economics. Both OPEC's October cut and FTX's collapse are major events in some of the most internationally-followed industries. We've done this before; as of writing this comment, 2008's first collage image is the Lehman Brothers HQ in NYC right after their collapse, the Dot-com bubble is featured twice on 2000, the sub-prime mortgage crisis is prominently featured in 2007, 2020 prominently features a Russo-Saudi oil price war, and too many more examples to fit into this reply. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 20:49, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- Many readers wouldn't know that. If editors thought it important they'd have added the percentage or number of dollars the price moved by to that entry. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 20:26, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- Because it's a logical assumption one can make and an instance of WP:BLUE. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 19:35, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, but that isn't mentioned in this article. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:43, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- The production cut caused a change in prices. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 05:41, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
- That entry only mentions a production cut, not a change in price. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 22:44, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- False...we have the OPEC production cut in October listed. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 22:29, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- That's also true of the value of many currencies, as well as oil, gold, etc. We don't include major changes in the prices of those, or the effects those price changes cause. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 22:00, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- Cryptocurrency is volatile, but it's still something that a lot of people around the world from all countries are involved in and even more follow. Inclusion should be a no-brainer. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 20:41, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- How can cryptocurrencies be of great importance to the world? We don't include major changes in the values of important currencies in main year articles, so why include this? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:38, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude - I don't think most people will have any idea what this is about, or care. Deb (talk) 18:30, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude - Outside of U.S. I don't think this is really that significant news, outside of crypto community. I mean, I don't think people around me know about the collapse in Indonesia. MarioJump83 (talk) 02:04, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
- As with many other events & people, someone who has an interest in it argues for its inclusion, not accepting that it doesn't affect the large majority of people. Most people don't know about it, and even if they did they wouldn't be interested. Major increases in inflation & interest rates each affect a high proportion of people, yet we rarely include those in main year articles. The people & orgs affected by this company's collapse are those who choose to trade a very high-risk, very high-volatility instrument that has little legitimacy. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 12:09, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
- TheScrubby has previously argued that this article generally needs more diversity. This is the biggest event in the crypto world to happen. FTX and BlockFi, itself worth $3 billion, have both filed for bankruptcy. One can't really argue that people don't care about this on an international level unless they survey the population themselves from across everywhere; Indonesia or America alone isn't a good metric. Furthermore, inclusion as a simple sentence with less than 20 words would not harm the article in any way without a degree of fearmongering being exhibited. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 01:49, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- What you're saying would justify including it only if crypto were important. BlockFi's bankruptcy should be on 2022 in the United States. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:37, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- Disputing the importance, or at least international relevancy, of cryptocurrency in our world is ridiculous to the point of shooting yourself in the foot when an entire wikiproject on crypto exists. And BlockFi's bankruptcy isn't notable on its own but it was at least partly as a result of FTX. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 17:57, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- We also have an explosives project, but we exclude the vast majority of explosions & advancements in explosives technology. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 10:43, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- Classic WP:OSE. Explosives aren't usually included in main year articles unless they played a role in international conflicts because both 2022 in science exists as well as, with exceptions, generally minimal coverage of advancements in explosive technology. This discussion isn't about including every crypto bankruptcy; it's including the FTX collapse as a single entry. It shouldn't be a big deal to include it, and the article would ultimately have no representation of crypto as of yet without it; Scrubby has in past discussions advocated for more diversity generally. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 17:55, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- We also have an explosives project, but we exclude the vast majority of explosions & advancements in explosives technology. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 10:43, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- Disputing the importance, or at least international relevancy, of cryptocurrency in our world is ridiculous to the point of shooting yourself in the foot when an entire wikiproject on crypto exists. And BlockFi's bankruptcy isn't notable on its own but it was at least partly as a result of FTX. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 17:57, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- What you're saying would justify including it only if crypto were important. BlockFi's bankruptcy should be on 2022 in the United States. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:37, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- TheScrubby has previously argued that this article generally needs more diversity. This is the biggest event in the crypto world to happen. FTX and BlockFi, itself worth $3 billion, have both filed for bankruptcy. One can't really argue that people don't care about this on an international level unless they survey the population themselves from across everywhere; Indonesia or America alone isn't a good metric. Furthermore, inclusion as a simple sentence with less than 20 words would not harm the article in any way without a degree of fearmongering being exhibited. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 01:49, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- As with many other events & people, someone who has an interest in it argues for its inclusion, not accepting that it doesn't affect the large majority of people. Most people don't know about it, and even if they did they wouldn't be interested. Major increases in inflation & interest rates each affect a high proportion of people, yet we rarely include those in main year articles. The people & orgs affected by this company's collapse are those who choose to trade a very high-risk, very high-volatility instrument that has little legitimacy. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 12:09, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
Moldova strike (Result: exclusion)
There's an importance tag on Russian strike of Moldova. Should this strike be included? MarioJump83 (talk) 13:40, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
Include - Personally, I would include this since this is the very first time Russia struck a village outside of Ukraine, which is quite an escalation of the war. MarioJump83 (talk) 13:40, 24 November 2022 (UTC)- Exclude because it doesn't have an article & appears to have been a one-off which was accidental. There was no response to it. It's far less notable than the 2022 missile explosion in Poland, which also shouldn't be included due to it being unintentional & there being a lack of a physical response. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:06, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude as per Jim Michael. TheScrubby (talk) 18:55, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude as per Jim Michael and TheScrubby. 4me689 (talk) 00:02, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
- Wait. If nothing changes, exclude. But if this is one of the inciting incidents for a future conflict or escalation between Russia and Moldova/Transnistria/whatever, keep it or add it back in. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 01:59, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
- I realize that this is may not hold much significance until Russia really escalates the conflict outside Ukraine. MarioJump83 (talk) 02:10, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
Irene Cara (Result: borderline inclusion)
is Irene Cara notable enough for inclusion,
Cara sang and co-wrote the song "Flashdance... What a Feeling" (from the film Flashdance), for which she won an Academy Award for Best Original Song and a Grammy Award for Best Female Pop Vocal Performance.
I'll wait for other replies before I put my opinion down, also please put a good detailed response and not something like insufficient International nobility 2022 in the United States. 4me689 (talk) 03:16, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
- Not sure. Probably exclude because I don’t think I have ever heard of her until now. Kyu (talk) 03:21, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
- So far as the Oscars go, automatic inclusion has only ever gone to those who are recipients of the Best Director and Best Actor (or Supporting)/Actress awards. Winning an Oscar for Best Original Song has never been a prerequisite for inclusion for musicians, nor should it be. The Grammys too are overwhelmingly Americentric to be considered a major factor for international notability, as has been discussed here before. As for Cara, I would say exclude due to insufficient international notability, her primary source of notability being for her role in Fame and for the aforementioned Flashdance song. TheScrubby (talk) 09:40, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
- Include because although all her awards are American, two of her songs reached number 1 in the national charts in a few countries each. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 12:21, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
- Include as she had notable success in the eighties and a handful of international number one songs. PaulRKil (talk) 13:49, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
- Never heard of her, but it does seem like that she is notable enough for inclusion based on other people's comments so far. I'll say neutral for now as I would like to wait for more, but I would support inclusion later if no one has any further major objection. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 17:10, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
- She was very well-known in the 80s, but international notability rather than number of fans is what we go by. Soloists who've had number one singles (or albums for that matter) in multiple countries' main charts should be automatically included. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 12:09, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
- Not saying this applies to Cara at all, but surely this doesn’t include one-hit wonders who had one major hit that went number one in multiple countries internationally? TheScrubby (talk) 23:43, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
- I agree that they wouldn't usually be notable enough. It's difficult to measure the notability of entertainers. Two major international solo hit singles or one album should be enough. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 00:24, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with Jim Michael. 4me689 (talk) 17:13, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
- Not saying this applies to Cara at all, but surely this doesn’t include one-hit wonders who had one major hit that went number one in multiple countries internationally? TheScrubby (talk) 23:43, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
- She was very well-known in the 80s, but international notability rather than number of fans is what we go by. Soloists who've had number one singles (or albums for that matter) in multiple countries' main charts should be automatically included. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 12:09, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
- Include, Cara has a couple of number 1 hits that went number 1 in not only the us, but also in a couple of other countries outside of the us as well, she is also generally well-known outside of the us as well. 4me689 (talk) 17:07, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
2022 missile explosion in Poland (Result: no consensus)
This has its own article, but the other arguments for excluding the similar incident in Naslavcea, Moldova also applies to this. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 12:09, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
- Include: The fact Poland is a member state of NATO is the difference maker for me and makes the incident a significant close call for any escalation of this conflict. PaulRKil (talk) 14:07, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
- But there was no physical response to what appears to have been an accidental one-off. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:39, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
- Wait. Just like Moldova, I believe inclusion is contingent on if, and if so when, Russia escalates. If Russia escalated in July 2023, no. But if Russia escalates before the memory of both Poland and Moldova disappears (it's hard to say but I would suggest January 2023 as a start date to put that limit), we can retroactively include both. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 21:33, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
Deaths of sportspeople in November (Result:)
there are a lot of people with in importance inline tag in the November section of the death section, this section is about the sports people in said section here are all the sports people
- Aleksandr Gorshkov, Russian figure skater and Olympic champion
- Börje Salming, Swedish ice hockey player
- Fernando Gomes, Portuguese footballer
- Doddie Weir, Scottish rugby union player
- Gábor Csapó, Hungarian water polo player and Olympic champion
We need opinions on these people any thoughts??? 4me689 (talk) 17:24, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
Keep Gorshkov and Salming. Also just as an aside, can we cool it with the importance inlines? It is a little jarring when you look at an article where every other entry is tagged with one and I think it can cause someone to read it and conclude we have no idea what we are talking about. Obviously, I’m not asking to omit them but can we use some discretion and go to the talk page with entries we think aren’t important if we already have a couple inlines? PaulRKil (talk) 02:14, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- Why include Salming? He didn't win any gold medals, nor have any other great international accomplishments. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:37, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- The Olympics are an amateur sporting event, but ice hockey isn't. Gold medals aren't the best way of measuring success in the sports, as opposed to achievement in the NHL (exceptions being the Soviets, if we're ever debating people likeVladislav Tretiak and Anatoli Firsov . Salming was a star of the sport and I'd have him as a borderline inclusion, but I can't back up my argument with much hard data, as most of his achievements aren't quite as unique as the other two ice hockey deaths on this year's list - Mike Bossy and Guy Lafleur. Even taking into account that Salming was a defenceman, I can't provide a great case for him. I know you won't like me using the NHL over international events, but it's the premier space for the sport. The Voivodeship King (talk) 14:25, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- If he was one of his sport's best players, RS would say so. There's nothing in his article to indicate that he was. If he was widely regarded as being one of his sport's greats, that reliably-sourced info should be added to his article. WP bios of many of the best sportspeople - including Pelé & Novak Djokovic - clearly state how good they are/were & the specifics of that. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:14, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- The NHL itself regards him as one of the greatest players. It is a list, but it is an official release by a major organization for what it is worth so to me, that is a reliable enough source. [1] PaulRKil (talk) 20:10, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- Being in the top hundred of a league of a sport doesn't indicate substantial international notability. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 20:58, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- You asked for a reliable source and I'm not sure there is a more reliable authority on ice hockey and overall player accolades than the NHL itself. PaulRKil (talk) 23:42, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- It can be a factor when combined with other sources. Paul has a point; if the national league itself (especially in the American hockey following, the largest single-country hockey fandom by absolute size) has distinguished you, you're pretty spectacular. I'd prefer to see more sources indicated notability, which I haven't seen yet, but if supporters of inclusion can show he was acclaimed.
- InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 06:46, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- I'm saying that being in a top 100 isn't enough; it's not a top 20. It doesn't indicate being one of the greats or at/near the top of a sport. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 10:43, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- The list didn't rank them by number just an alphabetical list of players and it was a collection of the 100 greatest NHL players, a league that has had over 100 seasons and 7700 players who have played in the NHL over the course of its existence, I'd say is a pretty exclusive list. This isn't even taking into consideration the accolades awarded to him by European leagues.
- Either way, it is borderline for me. PaulRKil (talk) 15:25, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- Inclusion of this specific athlete as well would not substantially harm the article. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 17:56, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- WP:NOHARM isn't a valid argument for inclusion. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:40, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
- Inclusion of this specific athlete as well would not substantially harm the article. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 17:56, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- I'm saying that being in a top 100 isn't enough; it's not a top 20. It doesn't indicate being one of the greats or at/near the top of a sport. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 10:43, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- Being in the top hundred of a league of a sport doesn't indicate substantial international notability. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 20:58, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- The NHL itself regards him as one of the greatest players. It is a list, but it is an official release by a major organization for what it is worth so to me, that is a reliable enough source. [1] PaulRKil (talk) 20:10, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- If he was one of his sport's best players, RS would say so. There's nothing in his article to indicate that he was. If he was widely regarded as being one of his sport's greats, that reliably-sourced info should be added to his article. WP bios of many of the best sportspeople - including Pelé & Novak Djokovic - clearly state how good they are/were & the specifics of that. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:14, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- The Olympics are an amateur sporting event, but ice hockey isn't. Gold medals aren't the best way of measuring success in the sports, as opposed to achievement in the NHL (exceptions being the Soviets, if we're ever debating people likeVladislav Tretiak and Anatoli Firsov . Salming was a star of the sport and I'd have him as a borderline inclusion, but I can't back up my argument with much hard data, as most of his achievements aren't quite as unique as the other two ice hockey deaths on this year's list - Mike Bossy and Guy Lafleur. Even taking into account that Salming was a defenceman, I can't provide a great case for him. I know you won't like me using the NHL over international events, but it's the premier space for the sport. The Voivodeship King (talk) 14:25, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- Why include Salming? He didn't win any gold medals, nor have any other great international accomplishments. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:37, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- I personally agree that the criteria for these articles is too rigorously enforced, and that less sufficient international notability guidelines in comparison to where we are today is necessary. We should be more lenient on inclusion; too many people are being excluded/removed/flagged because of notability. We should be more focused on good articles (or at least make an effort to improve and better promote "Year In" articles instead of only policing content inclusion here) even if it comes at the expense of a few people or events who aren't as internationally notable as others mentioned in both here and in year in articles. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 03:18, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- Davide Rebellin was added today. Of the five listed above & him, the only one who may be internationally notable enough to include is Gorshov. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:37, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- Have we come to a consensus here? I'm willing to exclude Salming as well if it means we can remove these dang importance inlines.PaulRKil (talk) 18:52, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
Christine McVie in lead? (Result: not included)
According to Scrubby's recent edit summary, Jiang and McVie are easily November's two most notable deaths. McVie is absolutely accomplished, but does she deserve to be in the line of entertainers in lead? InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 21:27, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- What requirements should get someone in the lead in the first place? I agree with @PaulRKil someone needs to be removed for McVie to be included, just to avoid clutter. FireInMe (talk) 22:16, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
I’m willing to add her under the condition we elect to remove at least one of the entertainers already listed in the article lead. PaulRKil (talk) 21:49, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
agree, we should find someone to remove. 4me689 (talk) 23:25, 30 November 2022 (UTC)- This is hard. I'm also leaning towards removing one person, and I'd like to describe my reasoning for who that person is below:
- Poitier, Godard, and Lewis should stay on. They achieved notable firsts for their race, genre of film, and genre of music respectively.
- Lansbury is not only a cultural icon but also was knighted by Queen Elizabeth. She's gotta be on there.
- Olivia Newton-John is the only one left. The question then becomes: is McVie more notable than Newton-John?
- Let's take a look at their kudos/achievements/points. For Newton-John:
- She starred in Grease, one of the most recognizable soundtracks to this date.
- She's an extremely successful recording artist.
- She did compose/write songs, and had tons of iconic songs. She didn't write some of her most famous ones, though (Physical is the one that comes to mind that she recorded but didn't write).
- Identified with more pop music.
- Knighted by Queen Elizabeth.
- Multiple lifetime achievement awards and Grammys
- As for McVie
- Mostly famous for Fleetwood Mac, one of the most famous bands in the world
- Was part of Fleetwood Mac for Rumours, one of the best selling albums ever and the number 7 ever according to Rolling Stone
- On Rumours, she wrote Oh Daddy, but most notably You Make Loving Fun and Don't Stop.
- Wrote more songs in general than Newton-John
- Multiple lifetime achievement awards
- If both could go on, they should both be on. But in the end, Newton-John is the more notable of the two. It mainly comes down to two factors for me: scope of recognition and musical diversity. In scope of recognition, Newton-John was knighted, and while she didn't write her own songs to the extent McVie did, she did write some at the very least. She's sold more records, though Newton-John's own singles and the 15-million copies sold Grease album (taken individually) are all dwarves by Rumor's nearly 30-million copies. This is where musical diversity comes in and gives Newton-John the cake: Newton-John is mostly a pop singer, while McVie is mostly in the rock genre. Through Jerry Lee Lewis, rock is already represented in the lead, and removing Newton-John for McVie would give undue weight towards rock. Newton-John is the sole pop singer in the lead, and unless Katy Perry or Taylor Swift suddenly (though sadly) did meet her end this year, Newton-John is the most memorable and notable pop singer who did pass away this year. Anyways, just my thoughts. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 01:52, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- Support retaining status quo, which means excluding McVie from the lead section. She was undeniably notable, but not to the extent that Olivia Newton-John or Jerry Lee Lewis was. In any case I don’t think we should have any more representing musicians, lest we bloat the lead section (which I already have my reservations about to begin with). TheScrubby (talk) 04:36, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed. A picture should suffice. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 06:46, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think McVie is important enough to be in the lead, and all the people currently in it are more notable than her. I agree to keep it as it is. She's easily the most notable entertainer to die in Nov, and Jiang the most notable person, so the photos should be of Jiang & her. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 10:43, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with TheScrubby. 4me689 (talk) 16:59, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed. A picture should suffice. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 06:46, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
Exclude Although I love Fleetwood Mac, I don't think McVie should be included. We have enough people in the lead already, and they're more famous/notable than her. Wjfox2005 (talk) 18:41, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
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Kirstie Alley (Result: exclusion)
Because I am certain there will be edit wars over her inclusion, do we include Kirstie Alley?
And as an aside, she absolutely shouldn't be in the lead PaulRKil (talk) 18:43, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude because she has no international notability. All her awards are domestic. Like thousands of domestic entertainers, her death has been reported by the media in many countries because she has fans in many countries. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 20:52, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude as per Jim Michael. TheScrubby (talk) 01:18, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
- Include PolPot1975 (talk) 15:49, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
- Why? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 16:49, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
- Get her out of here. Never even heard of her. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 22:16, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude. I also removed her from the 1951 article too. You’re welcome Jim Michael. Kyu (talk) 05:38, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- She's one of the examples of someone of similar notability to Robbie Coltrane. Including him enables people to argue for many other entertainers on the same grounds as those which gained Coltrane's inclusion. I don't know how to argue against that. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 12:50, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- I'll say Exclude I only knew her from the Jenny Craig commercials. FireInMe (talk) 15:20, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
Technoblade rediscussion (Result: exclusion)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I think enough time has passed to see what impact Technoblade has had on the world. I should note I'm not a frequent follower of Minecraft anymore, nor was I of Technoblade ever, but after a bit of research and seeing his passing was covered intensely by the internet and by sources across the English-speaking world, I think he would merit inclusion here even if borderline. Reading in the past discussion, WP Years of it seemed to ignore the world of video games, and I remember that Scrubby has pushed previously for more diversity.
Technoblade is easily the most notable personality within gaming and YouTube who has died within a long time, and his passing was proportional to HM Queen Elizabeth within the YouTube and Gaming world. In addition to the many fan-made tributes to the pig warrior, YouTube corporate made their own memorial to the gamer. A YouTube-promoted anti-cancer fundraiser has collected more than $24 million in donations, in Technoblade's name. He's an icon of gaming within the English-speaking world, and his passing was covered in India Express, NPR, BBC News, and the Sydney Morning Herald. Google Trends data shown here proves that while he did originate from the United States, he's had a worldwide reach, and despite being American, his strongest fanbases were in Singapore, Australia, and the Philippines. His mourners, both famous and common, have come from an international background, and even before his unexpected death, as seen with this set of data from May 2020 until a month before his death, he still had an incredibly-large fanbase in not only the US and the previously mentioned countries but also Western Europe and the Caribbean islands of Trinidad and Tobago, as well as minority notability within Russia, India, Saudi Arabia, South America, and South Africa. Google Trends Data, in conjunction with the mountain of tributes which have come in from all of the regions previously mentioned and the previously-mentioned data above would evidence that Technoblade is internationally notable enough for whatever standard we have (unless such standards are specifically and intentionally discriminatory towards famous YouTube and gaming personalities, which in that case wtf is wrong with whoever proposed that), and that it's practically impossible to deny that Technoblade has international notability. For the reasons provided above, I would encourage that we include Technoblade as an entry in the Deaths section of 2022. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 09:07, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude. Sorry, but I think you greatly overstate his fame. I'm an avid gamer myself, but I'd never heard of him until recently, and gamers aren't (yet) comparable to movies/actors in terms of cultural impact. His death is in no way comparable to a monarch who ruled the Commonwealth for 70 years and oversaw the decline of the British Empire. This was already discussed previously anyway. Wjfox2005 (talk) 11:10, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude - this is yet another example of someone grossly overstating the notability, fame etc. of someone they're a fan of. The vast majority of people have never heard of him. Mainstream news had very little interest in him. He isn't even important to his field. Kirstie Alley - who also shouldn't be included - played a main character on one of the most popular sitcoms & was far more notable & many times more famous than he was. We don't include most Olympic medallists. Main year articles need to be based on international notability. They shouldn't be led by fans or pop culture. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 12:50, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- Disclaimer, if you didn’t see above: I’m not a big Minecraft person anyways…I just did the research. Most of your argument relies on the fact that YouTube personalities can’t be internationally notable; that is not the case. How would a sitcom star with a domestic (or limited international) reach be more important than a YouTuber with international reach? The article under your interpretation biases “old money” value and “older” careers and fails to recognize a newer type of way to be famous exists, and your definition of international notability is too exclusive. Mainstream news did cover him (see sources previously listed, as well as how his death was covered by CBS News and CNN), and his death was, per PC Gamer, the top trending YouTube video of 2022. Why would a domestic sitcom star be more notable than an internationally-relevant YouTube personality? InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 16:40, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- Coverage does not equal notability. We don't measure notability by the coverage a person gets. If that was the case, Bob Saget would have been included. Which most of us scoffed at.
- We measure notability by how the person is recognized in other countries. Awards are typically the best way to measure that.
- Sidney Poitier recevied an Oscar, a Bafta, along with a whole slew of honorary awards from many countries. That makes him notable. If the person does not have awards, than we move onto other factors such as chart hits ( for musicians ). Olivia Newton John is therefore notable because her songs have hit the charts in many countries.
- But on the grand scale of things, You really think Technoblade is comparable to Sidney Poitier ? 2601:204:CF81:EC80:955A:5FA9:915A:C2E (talk) 18:53, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- You're comparing Technoblade, a simple entry, to Sidney Poitier, someone famous enough to be in the lead? Not all famous people are equal, but he's certainly notable enough at least for a mention. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 19:20, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- We don't measure fame though.
- Fame does not equal notability. Or else, Most people on the death list would be excluded, simply because they're not covered enough on mostly American news media. Which is basically Americentrism as Scrubby here as stated in the last 2 years.
- We do however measure notability. What is he or she known for ? And is what he or she known for, measured in the global context if that makes sense ?
- We don't include Poitier because he's famous. We include Poitier because his notability is recorded, measured in the awards he has gotten. Oscars. Baftas.
- William Hurt was not as famous as Technoblade, but we don't measure fame. We measure notability that is recorded and measured, Hurt won an oscar, bafta, and Cannes.
- I don't see how Technoblade meets that standard. And this isn't me being snobbish, I'll happily include someone like Warren Buffett who is very notable globally for his investing work. 2601:204:CF81:EC80:955A:5FA9:915A:C2E (talk) 19:40, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- I think that most of the encyclopedic notability for Technoblade comes both from his popularity playing Minecraft but also his advocacy. According to YouTube (see sidebar directly across the video link in my original response), the fundraiser in Techno's name has led to over $24 million USD through YouTube donated for cancer research; a further $500,000 will be donated to the Sarcoma Foundation of America (source: GameRant. I believe fame is a factor towards notability, which may not necessarily not equate to it, but should be weighed. Given that also awards and rankings of all merits, notably the Golden Globes and the USNews College Ranking, are increasingly controversial, I think that awards deserve still factorable but reduced weight compared to other measures. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 19:49, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- 1. But Technoblade has not been recognized in any field whatsoever, which does not make him notable. Sir Capitain Tom Moore who died last year, was famous for raising alot of money for charity. And yet we don't include him, because he's not notable for something.
- 2. I'll happily include the creators of Minecraft if and when they die. They created minecraft and got a Bafta for it. 2601:204:CF81:EC80:955A:5FA9:915A:C2E (talk) 20:01, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- You're comparing Technoblade, a simple entry, to Sidney Poitier, someone famous enough to be in the lead? Not all famous people are equal, but he's certainly notable enough at least for a mention. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 19:20, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- Disclaimer, if you didn’t see above: I’m not a big Minecraft person anyways…I just did the research. Most of your argument relies on the fact that YouTube personalities can’t be internationally notable; that is not the case. How would a sitcom star with a domestic (or limited international) reach be more important than a YouTuber with international reach? The article under your interpretation biases “old money” value and “older” careers and fails to recognize a newer type of way to be famous exists, and your definition of international notability is too exclusive. Mainstream news did cover him (see sources previously listed, as well as how his death was covered by CBS News and CNN), and his death was, per PC Gamer, the top trending YouTube video of 2022. Why would a domestic sitcom star be more notable than an internationally-relevant YouTube personality? InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 16:40, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- I think Google Trends should be part of the equation towards determination but it should definately not be the bar for inclusion. It only goes as far as 2004 and many people gained their notability before 2004 examples include Elizabeth II, Sidney Poitier, Angela Lansbury, Jerry Lee Lewis, and Jean-Luc Godard. Technoblade's notableness definitely was confined within the existence of Google Trends. I'll say Exclude Technoblade. FireInMe (talk) 15:25, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- He wasn't even YouTube famous. I've watched YT videos every day for years & the only reason I've heard of him is seeing his death being added to this article. If I didn't read this article, I still wouldn't have heard of him. Whether you're talking about fame, notability or popularity, he's not one of the top 100 people to have died this year. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 20:08, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- Yeah I think it's time for me to WP:DROPTHESTICK on this one. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 21:16, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- Yeah, I agree with you @Jim Michael 2 definitely not top 100. I also never heard of him prior to his death. FireInMe (talk) 00:03, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
- Invading Invader, It's also worth remembering that gaming personalities are almost solely young people, given that the ability to stream video globally is such a recent invention. The same for YouTube. The Voivodeship King (talk) 12:36, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, and the vast majority of middle-aged & old people haven't heard of even the most popular personalities of such sites. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:51, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
- Invading Invader, It's also worth remembering that gaming personalities are almost solely young people, given that the ability to stream video globally is such a recent invention. The same for YouTube. The Voivodeship King (talk) 12:36, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
- He wasn't even YouTube famous. I've watched YT videos every day for years & the only reason I've heard of him is seeing his death being added to this article. If I didn't read this article, I still wouldn't have heard of him. Whether you're talking about fame, notability or popularity, he's not one of the top 100 people to have died this year. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 20:08, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
These are domestic, with only small solidarity protests in several other countries. The partial gov concessions are domestic. Even if you include the 2022 Ürümqi fire in the death toll, it's still low. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 21:41, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- I think that most other protests would be domestic, but I think this would be one that should be included in the main international page. Protests in China are generally rare, and ones that succeed to any degree are remarkable. Exclusion of widely-covered events for the sole reason of being domestic and ignoring everything other detail isn't a good approach when countries, especially the world's most populous ones, spur international media coverage. Jim has generally more permissive of events which cause a major impact, a position which I personally share; this is one which has ultimately led to the CCP ceding to protestors' demands. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 22:25, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- The 2022 Kazakh unrest is included because international forces took part & it resulted in the gov resigning. Its death toll was over 200. None of that is true of the Chinese protests. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:33, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
- To respond to both your reply to me and Wjfox2005: Whatever the notability criteria is, unless it's biased to specifically censor China, these protests should be included. Jim, look at things relatively to not this year alone or other protests but also the history of a country or its size. A country like China, which has had zero wide-scale protests aside from this one and the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests/massacre, should see its biggest protests covered. In addition, some of the most notable protests ever don't always result in regime change or mass death; see the American March on Washington and the Indian Salt March. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 21:19, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
- The inclusion guidelines & I aren't biased. We don't include things due to them being unusual. Likewise due to them having a lot of media coverage; if we did, we'd include celebrity weddings. These aren't among the most notable protests of all time, nor are they anywhere near as notable as the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre. They also aren't the world's most notable protests of this year. Things aren't inherently more important due to them happening in the world's most populous country; similar arguments could be used to include various events in Russia because it's the largest country & in the US because it's the most powerful. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 22:32, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
- Equal weight regardless of country is a bad philosophy to undergo. And comparison to the most extreme events, or anomalies, doesn’t necessarily help your case. Take into account how rare an event is, or how rare the end result is, instead of just saying “it’s domestic and it’s not Tiananmen Square therefore it’s gone”. Don’t just weigh anomalies. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 02:10, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
- It's not the size, power or population of a country that's important when judging the notability of protests. The size & duration of the protests, the number of deaths caused, their internationality & changes in government as a result of them are what matters. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:26, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
- Why only that? InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 05:24, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
- Because they're the important factors. What else would be? The size/power/population of the city/country they take place in? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:05, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
- It's a balancing act between coverage and substance which does and should define notability for the purposes of this article, and the size of the country plus the size of the country. The country does matter, Jim. I know you hate to see that, but the country it takes place in does matter. And especially if it's a successful protest happening in the censorship capital of the world. Your arguments for the exclusion of events are comparable to "ad-hominem" reasons for exclusion; just because something happened in one country and wasn't the 1917 Russian Revolution doesn't mean it should be excluded. As stated previously, the main year article has to balance BOTH coverage and substance. This is an event which may fall slightly short when judging on substance alone but has gained much more media coverage than any other protest, likely because that protests of this level practically never happen in China. By only looking at event substance, we exclude what readers care about and we fail to put WP:READERs and their opinions on what they care about first. It's neither the position nor purpose of Wikipedia to dictate what people should care about (further information: WP:POINT). InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 21:30, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
- Because they're the important factors. What else would be? The size/power/population of the city/country they take place in? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:05, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
- Why only that? InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 05:24, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
- It's not the size, power or population of a country that's important when judging the notability of protests. The size & duration of the protests, the number of deaths caused, their internationality & changes in government as a result of them are what matters. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:26, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
- Equal weight regardless of country is a bad philosophy to undergo. And comparison to the most extreme events, or anomalies, doesn’t necessarily help your case. Take into account how rare an event is, or how rare the end result is, instead of just saying “it’s domestic and it’s not Tiananmen Square therefore it’s gone”. Don’t just weigh anomalies. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 02:10, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
- The inclusion guidelines & I aren't biased. We don't include things due to them being unusual. Likewise due to them having a lot of media coverage; if we did, we'd include celebrity weddings. These aren't among the most notable protests of all time, nor are they anywhere near as notable as the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre. They also aren't the world's most notable protests of this year. Things aren't inherently more important due to them happening in the world's most populous country; similar arguments could be used to include various events in Russia because it's the largest country & in the US because it's the most powerful. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 22:32, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
- To respond to both your reply to me and Wjfox2005: Whatever the notability criteria is, unless it's biased to specifically censor China, these protests should be included. Jim, look at things relatively to not this year alone or other protests but also the history of a country or its size. A country like China, which has had zero wide-scale protests aside from this one and the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests/massacre, should see its biggest protests covered. In addition, some of the most notable protests ever don't always result in regime change or mass death; see the American March on Washington and the Indian Salt March. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 21:19, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
- The 2022 Kazakh unrest is included because international forces took part & it resulted in the gov resigning. Its death toll was over 200. None of that is true of the Chinese protests. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:33, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
- I'm generally a big proponent of adding more China related items to main year articles but I'd have to say exclude. It is no different than the myriad of other protests against COVID measures that have been happening in virtually every country over the last 2 years, regardless of whether or not protests in China are rare or not. I think that the Canadian trucker protests were more impactful, but we have excluded those on this article as well. PaulRKil (talk) 22:02, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
- I agree that the Canada convoy protest is significantly more notable, involving far more vehicles. It caused far more disruption & cost far more to the economy. It's by far this year's most notable COVID-related protest. It has some internationality, including blockades of some crossings on the Canada–United States border & inspiring similar, smaller protests in other countries. As they were primarily domestic, I agree with them being excluded. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 01:58, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
- I think that both are domestic in substance, but internationally impactful enough, more so Canada's truckers than China's students. I would not oppose the inclusion of both, but if only one of the two had to go on, Canada would be the one. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 21:31, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
- I agree that it's difficult to justify including the China protests when the Canadian ones aren't here. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:41, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
- What if we be a little bit more inclusive now, and around maybe March 2023 (ideally when most of the fans and more hardline inclusionists are gone), we can conduct more complete reviews on events and deaths? InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 00:15, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- We needn't wait 3 months. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:28, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Why not? InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:03, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Because it'd be an unnecessary delay. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:55, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Why not? InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:03, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- We needn't wait 3 months. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:28, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- What if we be a little bit more inclusive now, and around maybe March 2023 (ideally when most of the fans and more hardline inclusionists are gone), we can conduct more complete reviews on events and deaths? InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 00:15, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- I agree that it's difficult to justify including the China protests when the Canadian ones aren't here. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:41, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
- I think that both are domestic in substance, but internationally impactful enough, more so Canada's truckers than China's students. I would not oppose the inclusion of both, but if only one of the two had to go on, Canada would be the one. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 21:31, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
- I agree that the Canada convoy protest is significantly more notable, involving far more vehicles. It caused far more disruption & cost far more to the economy. It's by far this year's most notable COVID-related protest. It has some internationality, including blockades of some crossings on the Canada–United States border & inspiring similar, smaller protests in other countries. As they were primarily domestic, I agree with them being excluded. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 01:58, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
Include. Given the prominent status/role played by China throughout the pandemic, and the rarity of protests like this in such a hardline country, I think on balance it's okay to include this. It's a notable milestone in the Covid crisis, and signifies that the world as a whole is finally moving on from it. Of course, Covid is still ongoing, and we'll be dealing with it for years (perhaps forever) but the fact that a country like China is now ending its Zero Covid policy is notable. I think it's wrong to exclude things purely for being domestic, it's sometimes more nuanced than that, and there are shades of grey. Wjfox2005 (talk) 08:52, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
- Millions of people have COVID; it's far from over. Many countries have changed their COVID policies. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:33, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
2022 Germany coup d'état plot (Result: exclusion)
I know it’s on the Germany section, but I feel like it should be on the main Page for the year 2022. But that’s just my thoughts 2603:8080:7D07:7700:885:7B11:FCF:3B66 (talk) 02:26, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
- Idk what to think. It's certainly a notable domestic event, but it wasn't January 6. If it happened, I would say YES without a doubt. But because it didn't happen, that leans me to think exclude. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 07:29, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude because it was a domestic plot by a fringe group which had no chance of succeeding & wasn't attempted. Main year articles shouldn't include any domestic plots. It's nothing like as notable as the January 6 United States Capitol attack, which shouldn't be on 2021 because it was domestic & a failure. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:33, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude It was merely a plan and it was suppressed. If this is included then any planned and suppressed government overthrow should be included for the sake of consistency which would be crazy. FireInMe (talk) 15:35, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude. Nothing happened, arrests were made on suspicion anyway. PolPot1975 (talk) 15:39, 10 December 2022 (UTC) PolPot1975 (talk) 15:39, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude. It was stopped from happening. Wjfox2005 (talk) 17:15, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude, and have an open mind to reopen and revisit the January 6 United States Capitol attack as well (which I think is at most a borderline inclusion, but in no way should be entitled to an image on the main collage for the 2021 page). TheScrubby (talk) 11:34, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
- It was domestic & had it happened in any other country it wouldn't be in 2021, let alone in its collage. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:51, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
I think the collage in the lead does more harm than good for a number of reasons.
- Accessibility for readers: There are too many images and far too much text in the caption, finding the image that goes with the string of verbiage is like a particularly cryptic Spot the ball, for someone with normal visual acuity who is a native English speaker. Making the image really nothing more than decoration, as the context is too hard to discern.
- Accessibility for editors: Editors cannot boldly add or remove an image to the collage, the amount of editing required to create a new collage image (likely from scratch) in some external editor, then manually set up the 'imagemap' coordinates is beyond most editors' patience if not ability. e.g. I really don't think 'monkeypox' is a defining part of 2022, and the Abe image needs changing, it's just people in a road, I came here to change these but even though I've been around for a little while now, I simply cannot do so. This collage is just going to be stale most of the time.
- The current content: "A picture of a road a while after something happened" is probably the most glaring example that really doesn't seem to add any value, but few of the pictures are representative of the events themselves, let alone the year as a whole. It says to me "This year, people stood in front of buildings, there was a tank, and some bacteria".
I think that 'the year 2022' is an abstract concept that cannot be represented visually, so my first proposal would be, per MOS:LEADIMAGE ("Lead images are not required, and not having a lead image may be the best solution if there is no easy representation of the topic.") simply not having a lead image would be a good solution.
If not, I think an info box like that in New York City would be a significant improvement, allowing the images to have captions in-line which is infinitely easier to read and it's editable using the visual editor; but to change the article (or year infobox) to work like that is far beyond my ability. JeffUK (talk) 02:45, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
- I agree that the collage in NYC's infobox is substantially better & I'm in favour of changing the format of the collages in year articles to the one in that article. Making them collapsible would be another improvement. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:26, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
- I second this. Easier for readers and editors alike. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 04:04, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
- I agree I like the New York one alot it makes it easier to read. LoreMaster22 (talk) 21:26, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
- Should the NYC collage format be only on this article to start with to see what the reaction to it is, or should we go straight to discussing on WP:YEARS whether or not to use it for collages on other year articles? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:51, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
- Years would probably be better, no point testing it here if there’s no consensus; I think I can mock up a demo in sandbox to take there. JeffUK (talk) 16:03, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
- Please do. It'd be good if more people would join the discussion. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 17:14, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
- Years would probably be better, no point testing it here if there’s no consensus; I think I can mock up a demo in sandbox to take there. JeffUK (talk) 16:03, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
- Should the NYC collage format be only on this article to start with to see what the reaction to it is, or should we go straight to discussing on WP:YEARS whether or not to use it for collages on other year articles? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:51, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
Abu al-Hasan al-Hashimi al-Qurashi
Just a heads up, but Abu al-Hasan al-Hashimi al-Qurashi did not die in November like this article claims. That was merely the date of his death's announcement. He actually died on October 15, 2022. -153.33.150.96 (talk) 18:14, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
- Done Jim Michael 2 (talk) 19:55, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
Is Bob McGrath notable enough to be included?
I don't think he is ? 2601:204:CF81:EC80:1005:75E5:73F:3960 (talk) 19:19, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude. Sesame Street is certainly an internationally notable show, but none of the main human performers are even memorable to Americans like me with the sole exception of Mr. Hooper. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 21:33, 14 December 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude because he has no international notability. There are far too many fans adding domestic figures & far too few regulars to remove them all. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:41, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed, and this is not helped by the profoundly mistaken inclusion of Robbie Coltrane. McGrath’s notability is even less so, and should accordingly be relegated to Year In Topic like other such domestic actor. TheScrubby (talk) 02:48, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- There's no case for including McGrath. I can't think of a way to encourage more people to become regulars on main year articles without likely being accused of canvassing. Making an exception for Coltrane basically because many people here are fans of him has made it difficult to argue against people who want to include domestic entertainers. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:12, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- Generally, my idea is to keep main year articles as collections of the most defining or notable events regardless of whether they're domestic, but giving preference to international events. Loosening our standards by just a bit makes both sides equally satisfied. I'm concerned about the Events section being a little bit too short and that the standards are too rigid. I think it's easier for me to support the exclusion of more domestic figures than more domestic events since deaths themselves, with way fewer exceptions than domestic events, only truly impact the person who died and their family. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 00:21, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Opening the door to domestic events would mean including domestic disasters, battles, attacks, crimes, protests, elections & referendums, as well as events related to entertainment, sport & business. Doing so in relation to births & deaths would mean including a large number of people who most of the world haven't heard of, who haven't even worked outside their home country. That'd include sportspeople, politicians, entertainers & famous-for-being-famous people. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:28, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Wouldn't that give the chance for people to learn more about people, though? People can work mostly inside their home country and be internationally notable. Mahatma Ghandi and MLK Jr are perfect examples; they only truly worked in British India and the US respectively, but they've done innumerable justices for the world even though neither of them held official political office in their respective nations. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:06, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- You're saying we should add a load of domestic figures to main year articles so readers can unexpectedly find out about people who shouldn't be here? Main year articles are rarely read from start to finish; they're referred to. If people want to know about a particular country's domestic figures, they'd read the relevant subarticles. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:55, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not saying that we should add a load of domestic figures. Domestic figures with widely provable international recognition is a yes. Domestic figures who have only been remotely heard of internationally, that's where we agree on exclusion. The article feels just a bit too small at the moment. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 07:11, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
- Which domestic figures with widely provable international recognition died this year? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:11, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not saying that we should add a load of domestic figures. Domestic figures with widely provable international recognition is a yes. Domestic figures who have only been remotely heard of internationally, that's where we agree on exclusion. The article feels just a bit too small at the moment. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 07:11, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
- MLK Jr won the Nobel Peace Prize for his social activism, he was internationaly. recognized.
- And Ghandi was influential in india's history as well.
- We're not talking about them when it comes to notability. 2601:204:CF81:EC80:391F:3C35:48EF:F3D4 (talk) 22:46, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- They're internationally notable, but the large majority of notable people are domestic. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:51, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- You're saying we should add a load of domestic figures to main year articles so readers can unexpectedly find out about people who shouldn't be here? Main year articles are rarely read from start to finish; they're referred to. If people want to know about a particular country's domestic figures, they'd read the relevant subarticles. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:55, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Wouldn't that give the chance for people to learn more about people, though? People can work mostly inside their home country and be internationally notable. Mahatma Ghandi and MLK Jr are perfect examples; they only truly worked in British India and the US respectively, but they've done innumerable justices for the world even though neither of them held official political office in their respective nations. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:06, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Opening the door to domestic events would mean including domestic disasters, battles, attacks, crimes, protests, elections & referendums, as well as events related to entertainment, sport & business. Doing so in relation to births & deaths would mean including a large number of people who most of the world haven't heard of, who haven't even worked outside their home country. That'd include sportspeople, politicians, entertainers & famous-for-being-famous people. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:28, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Generally, my idea is to keep main year articles as collections of the most defining or notable events regardless of whether they're domestic, but giving preference to international events. Loosening our standards by just a bit makes both sides equally satisfied. I'm concerned about the Events section being a little bit too short and that the standards are too rigid. I think it's easier for me to support the exclusion of more domestic figures than more domestic events since deaths themselves, with way fewer exceptions than domestic events, only truly impact the person who died and their family. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 00:21, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- There's no case for including McGrath. I can't think of a way to encourage more people to become regulars on main year articles without likely being accused of canvassing. Making an exception for Coltrane basically because many people here are fans of him has made it difficult to argue against people who want to include domestic entertainers. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:12, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed, and this is not helped by the profoundly mistaken inclusion of Robbie Coltrane. McGrath’s notability is even less so, and should accordingly be relegated to Year In Topic like other such domestic actor. TheScrubby (talk) 02:48, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
Not a question about this article specifically but I could find nowhere else to enquire — why are Nobel Prizes listed on year articles? What’s so notable about them that they’re given such special treatment? They’re awards given by independent, private, non-governmental organisations. Why not list this year’s Oscars or Emmys in their own section as well?
Is there an RfC which approved this at some point in the project’s history? Asperthrow (talk) 00:24, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- I agree that main year articles greatly inflate the importance of Nobels. They're the only awards that are included. They have their own section, giving the impression that they're the most important thing about each year! They should be in a single entry in events, if included at all. They've been discussed, but I don't believe that there's been an RfC about them. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:12, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- They are listed because they represent the pinnacle of human achievement in their respective fields for a given year and are therefore highly notable. Oscars and Emmys are more like trivia and aren't comparable. The Nobels have been discussed before, extensively. Wjfox2005 (talk) 15:24, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- Agree. Very much. _-_Alsor (talk) 22:36, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- You're all sure they warrant their own section, rather than an entry in Events? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:28, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- I'm on the Neutral side when it comes to this. I don't think people care, but they are important. So I'm stuck. If y'all want to start an RFC on WikiProject years to help convince me, by all means please do. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:07, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Do you think they should have a separate section? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:51, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- They definitely shouldn't have their own section IMHO. That's implying that achievements in the chosen subjects of chemistry and literature etc. are somehow better than winning "pinnacle" awards in other areas of life including mathematics, other academic subjects, not to mention music, sport, humanitarian work etc. It's unbalanced to single out the Nobel prizes in this way. — Amakuru (talk) 08:27, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
- I agree - is a Nobel in Literature universally considered to be significantly more important than all other literary awards? It's also strongly implying that awarding Nobels is the most important event of the year. Would anyone honestly say that they were the biggest, most important event of 2022 - or any year?! Jim Michael 2 (talk) 10:21, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
- They definitely shouldn't have their own section IMHO. That's implying that achievements in the chosen subjects of chemistry and literature etc. are somehow better than winning "pinnacle" awards in other areas of life including mathematics, other academic subjects, not to mention music, sport, humanitarian work etc. It's unbalanced to single out the Nobel prizes in this way. — Amakuru (talk) 08:27, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
- Do you think they should have a separate section? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:51, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- I'm on the Neutral side when it comes to this. I don't think people care, but they are important. So I'm stuck. If y'all want to start an RFC on WikiProject years to help convince me, by all means please do. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:07, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- You're all sure they warrant their own section, rather than an entry in Events? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:28, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Agree. Very much. _-_Alsor (talk) 22:36, 16 December 2022 (UTC)
- The Oscars and Emmys are not suitable because they are American rather than global. For example, to win an Oscar a movie has to be shown in Los Angeles. The other problem is that hundreds of them are distributed every year -- about 24 Oscars and so many Emmys that it's hard to count them all. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:49, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
- None of the film & TV awards are important enough for main year articles. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:11, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
RFC on the bankruptcy of FTX
- The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The initial discussion on the inclusion of the FTX collapse has led to no consensus. The main question is: Should the Bankruptcy of FTX, be included, pursuant to the options below? InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 00:27, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Include. I've stated my opinion previously, but I'll save the need for people to scroll up. CNN, Business Insider, and the India Times, among other sources in the media, have referred to FTX's collapse, once one of the most trusted cryptocurrency exchanges in the world, as the "Lehman Brothers" or "Enron" Moment for Cryptocurrency. Millions of people, from middle class crypto traders in Southeast Asia to Finance Firms in New York City have lost money due to FTX's collapse, from a small sliver of their portfolio to a large chunk of their holdings. WIRED magazine highlights that many cryptocurrency traders lost much of their fortune upon the collapse of FTX, with some traders across the world (such as the lead example provided by WIRED) losing 97% of his assets; Bloomberg has also highlighted that many across the world have seen their assets locked out of. As seen in The Guardian, members of the British Parliament were briefed that many institutional investors had lost millions due to the collapse. In the US, Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen is joining increasing calls to regulate cryptocurrency (see Coindesk and CBS News). This is about as international as it gets, and whatever this article's inclusion standards are, it should meet it unless it's specifically prejudiced against the international industry that is the cryptocurrency industry. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 00:34, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Support InvadingInvader's arguments overall. It's not just because of the direct impact on the crypto world, it affected quite a lot of markets and the savings of millions of people. Sam Bankman-Fried was a fairly notable (even if fraudulent) business figure, with considerable media coverage. But I do understand it might not be that massive to warrant inclusion in the 2022 article itself, perhaps 2020s in economic history instead? FelipeFritschF (talk) 01:51, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Include. Cryptocurrencies have gained far more importance in recent years, and this is clearly a landmark moment in their development, so the FTX collapse seems notable enough for inclusion. Wjfox2005 (talk) 10:00, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Include. I wish you were joking but it seems you're not, InvadingInvader. This is a blatantly notable event, possibly one of the most notables of the year and certainly the most notable in the field of exchanges & markets. Personally, I'm surprised anyone would dispute this. -The Gnome (talk) 12:13, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude because it's nowhere near important enough. Trading (by companies or individuals) in extremely high-risk, pseudocurrencies is choosing to involve themselves in a fringe product that is obviously likely to rapidly incur huge losses, which will likely include bankruptcy. It's nothing like as important or mainstream as food & water supply, inflation or mortgages, which affect a high proportion of the population. Adding this would wedge open the door for many more business events to be added. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:28, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Are you saying that an exchange that was recently valued at $32 billion getting wiped out is a usual and "not important" event? The exchange still owes over $3.5 billion to its creditors, on top of that. Where else this year or in the previous last years did we witness such an implosion? -The Gnome (talk) 16:42, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- I didn't say it's usual, but being unusual doesn't grant notability. Crypto is on the fringe of finance. The vast majority of people are unaffected by & unaware of this bankruptcy. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 17:06, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- This is FALSE. International news media (see my original comment in this RFC and the previous discussion's comments for sources) are covering the drama and economic fallout of FTX and Sam Bankman-Fried. My phone has nearly all the major news sources on it, and I'm getting notification after notification about SBF and FTX and stuff that started with this chain of events. And my phone has (either through their own apps or Apple News) Bloomberg, BBC, CNBC, Fox News, CNN, CBS, France24, Al Jazeera, the Atlantic, NYTimes, CNET, SCMP, and too many others to mention. When I log on to European and Asian sources, FTX is covered across the WORLD. These sources not only cover what's happening with SBF himself, but also, as I've cited in the previous discussion, stories of people (like Southeast Asia) who have LOST ALMOST ALL THEIR MONEY TO THIS COLLAPSE. There's no denying that this is less than notable unless you're using WP:IDONTLIKEIT or some other justification which intends to subliminally (or overtly for that matter) downplay a notable international industry. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 17:56, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- I didn't say it's usual, but being unusual doesn't grant notability. Crypto is on the fringe of finance. The vast majority of people are unaffected by & unaware of this bankruptcy. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 17:06, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- This argument is more akin to WP:IDONTLIKEIT with regards to cryptocurrency rather than attempting to deny notability. It's your choice IRL whether to invest in it or not. But that doesn't mean it should not garner a sentence or two on this article. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 17:51, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Try me mentioning it to people who don't follow financial news. They won't know what you're talking about & won't care. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:55, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Is this honestly an argument? Almost all the people I know are completely clueless about marine biology. And I mean they do not follow it at all!! Talk to them about marine biology and they won't know what you're talking about and won't care. So, what do you suggest we do with marine biology articles in Wikipedia? And don't get me started on topology. -The Gnome (talk) 09:12, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- We have very few articles in main year articles that are about marine biology or topology. I disagree with a move towards including more business stories. There should be subarticles such as 2022 in business and finance for that. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:51, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- Is this honestly an argument? Almost all the people I know are completely clueless about marine biology. And I mean they do not follow it at all!! Talk to them about marine biology and they won't know what you're talking about and won't care. So, what do you suggest we do with marine biology articles in Wikipedia? And don't get me started on topology. -The Gnome (talk) 09:12, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- Try me mentioning it to people who don't follow financial news. They won't know what you're talking about & won't care. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:55, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Are you saying that an exchange that was recently valued at $32 billion getting wiped out is a usual and "not important" event? The exchange still owes over $3.5 billion to its creditors, on top of that. Where else this year or in the previous last years did we witness such an implosion? -The Gnome (talk) 16:42, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Exclude per Jim Michael. Nothing else to add. It is by far not the most important business news this year. _-_Alsor (talk) 17:57, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Exactly - in comparison to the massive increase in inflation, it's a minnow of a story. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:55, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Nope. Nothing "massive" about the price increase, nor anything exceptional comparatively. The price index rose 5.87% between 2021 and 2022. This means that the purchasing power of $1 in 2021 would equal the purchasing power of $1.06 in 2022, a difference of six cents. Where's the "mass" you're talking about? Only in loaded opinions unsupported by arithmetic. -The Gnome (talk) 09:12, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- Many countries have far higher inflation than that this year - the highest for decades - significantly affecting many millions of people. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:51, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- True but this does not mean the FTX collapse is not worth including. Having the FTX collapse in the article does not affect the importance or the notability of the inflationary phenomena. You are essentially arguing that, alhtough the FTX collapse has indeed being reported in many sources, the event is not as important as another event. That's not a valid argument; this is not a list of the single most important events in every field. It's an article about a year's main events; note the plural. -The Gnome (talk) 07:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)-The Gnome (talk) 07:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
- Many countries have far higher inflation than that this year - the highest for decades - significantly affecting many millions of people. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:51, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- Btw, in the previous discussion there was a majority consensus to exclude the inclusion of this news item. _-_Alsor (talk) 17:59, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- There wasn't a consensus to include. A narrow majority doesn't create a consensus. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:51, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- It was no consensus; 3v3. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:07, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- You are bringing to the discussion false information, _-_Alsor. Every RfC is a serious affair. We're supposed to treat them more seriously than that.-The Gnome (talk) 09:12, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- The FTX collapse was quite evidently a notable event, _-_Alsor. Perhaps it was "not the most important business news this year" but, on the basis of the voluminous evidence available (the sources provided are a small sample), it certainly is a notable one. If you're of the opinion that we offer the most important and notable event, that opinion would be wrong. -The Gnome (talk) 09:12, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- Do you accept that it's nowhere near as important as inflation? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:51, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- Include.(Summoned by bot) And frankly, this looks pretty close to an issue that should have been resolved as WP:SNOW: there is clear WP:WEIGHT in reliable sources, with many financial sector experts and industry press clearly identifying this as by far the largest Ponzi scheme in history and likening it (disfavorably no less) to the collapse of Enron, in terms of scope, malfeasance, and impact. Not only do we have nothing less than thousands of reliable sources covering the ongoing and likely future impacts on the investment sector and the near-future viability of cryptocurrency, among numerous other knock-on effects, but also the response of regulators and legislatures across the globe. This is not even a remotely close call: this is easily one of the most WP:DUE topics for inclusion in this particular article. SnowRise let's rap 19:05, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- This whole discussion is built on this company having been legitimate & hit by unexpected, unjustified misfortune. If the whole thing's a Ponzi scheme & the company was never legitimate, that'd put it in a very different light. That'd make this company's collapse an organised crime event rather than a legitimate business event. I take more notice of financial news than most people do, yet I've only heard of FTX since it went bankrupt last month. The vast majority of people haven't heard of this company; it lasted 3 years & had about 300 employees. Enron lasted 16 years & had over 20,000 employees. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 23:11, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
"This whole discussion is built on this company having been legitimate & hit by unexpected, unjustified misfortune."
- I don't see how this discussion is or should be about such a supposed perception. I certainly don't see anyone predicating their include !vote above as being in any way connected with whether or not the company is sympathetic. In fact, I don't see anyone even suggesting they are sympathetic. Nor nefarious for that matter. Rather the !votes general seem (and in any event mine certainly is) predicated on the only obvious outcome of the actual policy test here; WP:WEIGHT.
"If the whole thing's a Ponzi scheme & the company was never legitimate, that'd put it in a very different light. That'd make this company's collapse an organised crime event rather than a legitimate business event."
- "Ponzi scheme" is exactly the framing that numerous primary and secondary sources are using to describe the venture. But again, this isn't even relevant to the policy test for inclusion here: we really don't care what your own analysis of the facts, or the subjective importance you ascribe the events or particulars. What matters is the weight and objective notability, as judged by coverage in WP:reliable sources. And this is easily one of the most reported upon events of the year, with dimensions that are likely to have lasting impacts in relevant markets, and well beyond the concerns of just crypto enthusiasts.
- This whole discussion is built on this company having been legitimate & hit by unexpected, unjustified misfortune. If the whole thing's a Ponzi scheme & the company was never legitimate, that'd put it in a very different light. That'd make this company's collapse an organised crime event rather than a legitimate business event. I take more notice of financial news than most people do, yet I've only heard of FTX since it went bankrupt last month. The vast majority of people haven't heard of this company; it lasted 3 years & had about 300 employees. Enron lasted 16 years & had over 20,000 employees. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 23:11, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- You seem to think (apparently without having stopped to check the breadth and depth of coverage on this event) that this is some sort of niche interest story, only of concern to such crypto boosters. But it's really not: this is getting coverage in nightly news, in long-form investigative journalism, in newspapers, in industry press, in the general press, on talk shows, all over social media; numerous regulatory probes are underway in numerous countries; there are ongoing congressional hearings. I'm not sure if you follow the financial news (or even the news) as above the norm as you think if you never heard about this company until a month ago, because it had a huge profile even before the colossal crash at the end: the cryptocurrency itself was broadly promoted by celebrities through traditional media channels and online: that's part of why the story is so big.
- I'm sorry, but pretty much every word of your objection immediately above and your own !vote further up (
"...because it's nowhere near important enough. Trading (by companies or individuals) in extremely high-risk, pseudocurrencies is choosing to involve themselves in a fringe product that is obviously likely to rapidly incur huge losses, which will likely include bankruptcy. It's nothing like as important or mainstream as food & water supply, inflation or mortgages, which affect a high proportion of the population."
) are 100% WP:original research: again, we just don't judge these things on the subjective, idiosyncratic value judgments of our individual editors as to why a given topic is or is not important enough to warrant coverage. On any article. Whether you think the people who invested in this product were rubes who should have seen it coming is not at all of value in making a policy-based decision on whether to include the story in this article. Nor is your personal call on how inherently bad the scheme was, in the grand scheme of things. What is relevant is that this is a major financial and legal event, with many dimensions being covered by voluminous discussion in countless sources meeting our WP:RS standard. It's as simple as that. SnowRise let's rap 01:06, 19 December 2022 (UTC)- This bankruptcy is a niche story about the failure of a dubious company whose business was ultra high-risk trading of a fringe financial product.
- You're the first person in this thread to mention that the bankruptcy of FTX was caused by criminality, which is significantly different to a legitimate business unexpectedly failing due to rapidly worsening economic conditions.
- You're saying that this story is being discussed by the mainstream media & ordinary people to a similar extent as the sharp increase in inflation? Millions of ordinary people are talking to their families, friends, colleagues, neighbours etc. about inflation. Would you honestly claim that millions of shop assistants, couriers, waiters, bartenders, farmers, builders, labourers, mechanics, plumbers, nurses, secretaries & cleaners are also talking about FTX's bankruptcy? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 02:12, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
- I don't know how to be more clear about this: the analysis, perspective, deductions, suspicions, outlooks, forecasts, reflections, judgments, views, conclusions, and even outright facts known to our editors are all of absolutely no consequence to a determination of whether or not content is WP:DUE for purposes of this project, no matter how well reasoned we think those determinations are. Please see WP:Original research, WP:NPOV, and WP:WEIGHT. What you or I or any other editor thinks about the answer to your posited question, it is absolutely irrelevant to the content determination.
- I'm sorry, but pretty much every word of your objection immediately above and your own !vote further up (
- So I could absolutely agree with you about the relative importance of this topic versus that on a personal level, and I would still have to oppose your position because we just don't judge inclusion on that sort of criteria. And for good reason: if we were to try to determine what content was due for inclusion in our content based on personal idiosyncratic views, work on virtually every article would creak to a halt as everyone argued the inherent value and WP:TRUTH of their own subjective views. That is why Wikipedia adopted the objective WEIGHT standard for these circumstances instead. I know you're relatively new to the project, and I'm not looking to be curt or dismissive, but this really is Wikipedia 101, bedrock policy based on our oldest principles of community consensus. Arguing for inclusion or omission based on your own first principles is expressly how we do not handle questions of inclusion. SnowRise let's rap 03:09, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
- Jim Michael 2, your arguments are no doubt well intentioned and honest but, unfortunately, have no merit in such a discussion. This is about what's worth having in this encyclopaedia. A person in ten years time looking up this article, about the year 2022's main events, and not finding any mention of the FTX collapse would be badly served by Wikipedia. -The Gnome (talk) 07:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
- Neutral, but leaning towards exclusion as per Alsoriano and Jim Michael. TheScrubby (talk) 23:55, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- Include I think that FTX's bankruptcy is much more than a niche story as it can and will seriously affect other crypto exchanges and the way they do their business. While it may be true that most of the general population isn't discussing FTX and its demise, many people are interested or at least familiar with cryptocurrencies, especially bitcoin.Iraniangal777 (talk) 08:42, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
- Include (Summoned by bot), this is a relatively niche topic (though so is all banking and investment), but within the finance sector it is a major event.
it … will seriously affect other crypto exchanges and the way they do their business … … many people are interested or at least familiar with cryptocurrencies
. Though likely to be much more cautious about them now. Pincrete (talk) 09:21, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
- Banking & investment are mainstream. Most people have heard of crypto, but wouldn't consider having anything to do with it and aren't interested in a crypto company going bust. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 10:21, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
- See [NYT article]. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 17:34, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
- Again: the myriad of sources reporting on the FTX collapse decides the issue. Whether people are generally more interested in other topics does not rob the FTX issue of its own notability. -The Gnome (talk) 07:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
- Banking & investment are mainstream. Most people have heard of crypto, but wouldn't consider having anything to do with it and aren't interested in a crypto company going bust. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 10:21, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
- Weak include - I think it is not in the top 10 but exceeds the WP:WEIGHT of many other items here, plus it has real impacts and is not just a hot scandal. Niche interests of finance and tech are particularly affected. Whether there is much wider impact would be something that will be seen in 2023 but for now it seems big enough to include. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 05:47, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
- Comment : Including in the article the obviously (quite) notable event about the FTX collapse does not mean excluding the 2022 phenomenon of inflation, evident in many countries around the world. It is important to have this clarified. -The Gnome (talk) 07:41, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
- WP:OSE is about comparing things of similar notability. Saying that this is far less important than the large increase in inflation is relevant. If someone said that a rugby, cricket, baseball or tennis tournament should be included, I'd say it shouldn't because it's nowhere near as notable as the FIFA World Cup. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 20:05, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
- It isn't necessarily the most productive idea to compare everything to the most notable event of the year sector-wise. An example is comparing an Israeli-Palestinian escalation to the Russian Invasion of Ukraine. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 20:16, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
- They should be compared. None of this year's events of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict are included in this article because they're not important enough. The increase in violence there this spring & summer wasn't unusual & was much less than last year's. Many events of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine are included. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 21:32, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
- Why should they be compared? Plus, the main year articles do seem to be a tad bit small. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 02:23, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
- Because they're events in the same category; in this case, armed conflicts. Main year articles are only for very internationally notable events & people.
- Small compared to what? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 12:14, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
- Wikipedia's project about articles on years makes it explicit that there is never the case whereby editors choose one or even "just a few events" for inclusion. It is sufficient to have the FTX assessed as one of the most notable events of 2022 to include it, along with other notable events. -The Gnome (talk) 13:17, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not saying there should be a quota of events of each topic. I disagree that FTX's bankruptcy is one of the most notable events of the year. It's pushing it to say that it's one of the most notable financial stories of the year. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:14, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
- It's absolutely not THE MOST notable event of the whole year (that title probably would go Ukraine), but it's notable enough for inclusion. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 04:17, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- If the most notable event of 2022 in the field of finance & economics was the inflationary phenomenon, Jim Michael 2, care to offer the second most notable event? -The Gnome (talk) 21:30, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- The sharp decline in Russia's economy due to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine as well as international sanctions & international businesses pulling out in response to it. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 22:32, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- Would you say FTX is in the Top 5? InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 08:48, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- Perhaps one of the top 5 business/finance stories of 2022, but certainly not one of the top 5 stories of the year overall - probably not top 100. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:23, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- If we count ongoing or long-lasting major events each as one big event each (like Ukraine, Inflation, the World Cup, the UK Government crisis), FTX would definitely be top 100. Most of the top 100 would be notable Russian-Ukrainian attacks and strikes, roughly simultaneous interest rate hikes across many central banks, the numerous events composing of Queen Elizabeth’s funeral, and stuff like that. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 00:44, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- Several deaths of celebrities are in also in the top 100 stories of the year, as are several elections, several disasters, several mass murders, several protests/riots & many sports events. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 13:16, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- Nothing to do with the fields of currencies or finance. -The Gnome (talk) 17:53, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- I wasn't saying they are. I was replying to II's comments about the top 100 events of the year, which is relevant when deciding what to include in a main year article. Being the most important, second-most important etc. in its category/field doesn't make it automatically important enough. If it did, we'd have a quota for dozens of fields, some of them fairly trivial. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:22, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- Nothing to do with the fields of currencies or finance. -The Gnome (talk) 17:53, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- Several deaths of celebrities are in also in the top 100 stories of the year, as are several elections, several disasters, several mass murders, several protests/riots & many sports events. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 13:16, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- The first ever significant set-back in the realm of crypto-currencies, Jim Michael 2, is not among the five most significant 2022 events in Economics and Finance?!? You can't be serious. As to your latest argument, you're using events from irrelevant categories (what does Queen Elizabeths funeral have to do with the financial markets?!) and you're crowding the field by treating items separately though they're part of one single event as far as the realm of finance is concerned: the war in Ukraine begat inflation and interest rate rises). The abundance of sources verifying the universal notability of the FTX collapse refutes all arguments against its inclusion in the year's round up. -The Gnome (talk) 17:53, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- I said perhaps it's one of the top 5, because it depends how you're measuring. Are the declines in the Russian & Ukrainian economies part of the war or different stories? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:22, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- There is one main event and then there are the direct consequences of it. We can have it all as one event, or we can have it as two, one being the war itself, and the other its consequences. In any case, the war in the Ukraine is most certainly the major event of 2022, in all fields, but, in the realm of Economics in general or Financial Markets in particular, the FTX collapse is as significant as the appearance itself of cryptocurrencies. -The Gnome (talk) 20:24, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
- If this bankruptcy is as significant (or anywhere near as significant) as the appearance of cryptocurrencies, then a great deal of info relating to it needs to be added to cryptocurrency, including to its lead. Neither FTX nor its bankruptcy are mentioned in that article at all. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 21:19, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
- They resulted from the war and are closely tied enough to the war. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 05:05, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
- There is one main event and then there are the direct consequences of it. We can have it all as one event, or we can have it as two, one being the war itself, and the other its consequences. In any case, the war in the Ukraine is most certainly the major event of 2022, in all fields, but, in the realm of Economics in general or Financial Markets in particular, the FTX collapse is as significant as the appearance itself of cryptocurrencies. -The Gnome (talk) 20:24, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
- I said perhaps it's one of the top 5, because it depends how you're measuring. Are the declines in the Russian & Ukrainian economies part of the war or different stories? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:22, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- Perhaps one of the top 5 business/finance stories of 2022, but certainly not one of the top 5 stories of the year overall - probably not top 100. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:23, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- Would you say FTX is in the Top 5? InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 08:48, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- The sharp decline in Russia's economy due to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine as well as international sanctions & international businesses pulling out in response to it. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 22:32, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not saying there should be a quota of events of each topic. I disagree that FTX's bankruptcy is one of the most notable events of the year. It's pushing it to say that it's one of the most notable financial stories of the year. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:14, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
- Wikipedia's project about articles on years makes it explicit that there is never the case whereby editors choose one or even "just a few events" for inclusion. It is sufficient to have the FTX assessed as one of the most notable events of 2022 to include it, along with other notable events. -The Gnome (talk) 13:17, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
- Why should they be compared? Plus, the main year articles do seem to be a tad bit small. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 02:23, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
- They should be compared. None of this year's events of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict are included in this article because they're not important enough. The increase in violence there this spring & summer wasn't unusual & was much less than last year's. Many events of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine are included. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 21:32, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
- It isn't necessarily the most productive idea to compare everything to the most notable event of the year sector-wise. An example is comparing an Israeli-Palestinian escalation to the Russian Invasion of Ukraine. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 20:16, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
- WP:OSE is about comparing things of similar notability. Saying that this is far less important than the large increase in inflation is relevant. If someone said that a rugby, cricket, baseball or tennis tournament should be included, I'd say it shouldn't because it's nowhere near as notable as the FIFA World Cup. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 20:05, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
- Include per InvadingInvader. The The FTX collapse is a notable event. Nemov (talk) 15:16, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
Closure request
As of a few minutes ago relative to the publishing of this note, I've put in a closure request at Wikipedia:Closure requests due to a relatively very quick consensus developing above. Some editors, as mentioned in closing comment, have suggested that this is a case in which WP:SNOW applies. Thanks! InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 05:50, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
Collage images
I think the collage isn't the best. It doesn't really summarize the most well known moments of the year well. I think there are a few things that we should change:
- Winter Olympics should be replaced with FIFA Word Cup 2022. A lot of people weren't even aware that the winter olympics happened.
- The Kazakh protest should be replaced with the Iran protests. I think we all know which one got/has gotten more attention.
- The Afghan earthquake should be replaced with the Peru coup attempt.
- The Sri Lanka protests should be replaced with protests against the Dobbs v. Jackson decision.
- Abe's assassination should be replaced with Liz Truss' resignation speech
- I also think there could be a better photo used for the Ukraine War TRJ2008 (talk) 17:14, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- For the most part I agree. I have some concerns, though:
- 1. Abe is more important.
- 2. A better photo could be used for the Ukrainian war.
- 3. Rediscuss Dobbs v. Jackson in an RFC if you want. There are quite a few editors who are extremely opposed to Dobbs being removed :(I'm personally more on the include side, but definitely not in collage).
- Anyways, just my thoughts. Otherwise, I like your idea. Thanks for suggesting! InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:01, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Do you really think that the resignation of Liz Truss is more notorious than the assassination of Abe? And more important the demonstrations over a court decision with a much smaller impact/interest globally than the protests that brought down the HoS and HoG of Sri Lanka? I would agree to replace the Kazah protests with the Iran protests, but not with the rest you propose (without questioning your good faith in this proposal, of course). _-_Alsor (talk) 17:55, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- The main reason i think of putting truss' resignation is because i think it kinda falls into the "Collapse of the UK narrative. I think watching UK news this year has just felt like the entire country is collapsing, and since the UK is a global power i think it fits. On dobbs i think because of the amount of people who visit America just to get an abortion, it has more global impact than the Sri Lanka protests. Not to say the Sri Lanka protests aren't important, but I think more people are affected by the dobbs decision. TRJ2008 (talk) 14:16, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- None of the UK events are international enough. If by 'collapsing' you mean economically, many countries are in worse financial difficulties. The D v J protests were domestic & had no effect, which are two reasons that they're not in the article, let alone important enough for the collage. The 2022 Sri Lankan protests resulted in the government resigning & being replaced. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:33, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- The main reason i think of putting truss' resignation is because i think it kinda falls into the "Collapse of the UK narrative. I think watching UK news this year has just felt like the entire country is collapsing, and since the UK is a global power i think it fits. On dobbs i think because of the amount of people who visit America just to get an abortion, it has more global impact than the Sri Lanka protests. Not to say the Sri Lanka protests aren't important, but I think more people are affected by the dobbs decision. TRJ2008 (talk) 14:16, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- The 2022 Kazakh unrest is far more notable than the Mahsa Amini protests, even though the latter has lasted far longer & received far more media coverage. Coup attempts aren't important enough to be in collages. Domestic protests shouldn't be in collages, especially when they didn't change anything. Nothing involving Truss is important enough for the collage. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:55, 17 December 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose all proposals as per Alsoriano and Jim Michael, although if there’s space I’d certainly prioritise the Mahsa Amini protests over Dobbs v. Jackson, which is easily the least notable of all the 2022 protests mentioned. TheScrubby (talk) 02:51, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- The collage can only include things that are in the article. None of the Iranian protests are, because they're primarily domestic. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:51, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- That's actually false. There is an entry on Mahsa Amini already in the month of September. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 07:09, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think 'protests' work for a lead image at all. In almost all cases, photos of indistinguishable people in a crowd really add no information to an article. Unless an image is particularly iconic like Tank Man or the fall of the statue of Saddam etc. JeffUK (talk) 14:46, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
- That's actually false. There is an entry on Mahsa Amini already in the month of September. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 07:09, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
- The collage can only include things that are in the article. None of the Iranian protests are, because they're primarily domestic. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:51, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
These protests were domestic in their early days, but became international when they spread outside Iran & international sanctions were imposed on Iran due to the their gov's response to the protests. Should they be in the article? If so, should they be in the collage? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 11:11, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
- Include in the article, neutral (lean exclude) in the collage. The ongoing actions of both the Iranian Government and the ongoing reactions internationally make the Iranian situation the most notable protest of 2022, edging out even Kazakhstan's unrest. Protests have erupted not only across the Islamic Republic but across the world; I myself ran into one on Market Street in San Francisco. I'm usually in favor of including notable large protests which garner international coverage, especially those against authoritarian governments, and this more than exceeds that threshold. That being said, JeffUK makes a good point on images; unless there is a "tank man" photo for a protest, it's difficult to justify inclusion. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 18:12, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
- These have gained the most media coverage & have the highest death toll of all this year's protests, but the 2022 Kazakh unrest & 2022 Sri Lankan protests are each more notable because they led to their governments being replaced. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 19:41, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
Links to year pages from ITN
The article about the current year such as 2022 is obviously driven by news coverage. As such, there's an overlap between it and our other similar pages and processes such as WP:ITN and Portal:Current events. It might be good to have more cross-linkage between them to help editors and readers understand how Wikipedia organises this information. Please see a current discussion about this. Andrew🐉(talk) 14:37, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
- A link to the current main year article should always be included in ITN. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:27, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 20 December 2022
I would like to request for an event or moment to be added. I showed it to you:
- 1 March – New Subscriber Identification Module (SIM Card) require real-name registration by the government.[1][2]
- 2 March - The first time that Hong Kong recorded more than 50,000 COVID-19 infections in one day.[3]
There it is, this statement contains sources from other websites and it is written in full sentences. So, I requested you to accept this request for addition of event. — 2600:1010:B117:9432:F821:D0D5:5F65:1AAA (talk) 22:49, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
- Not done because those are regional events which are for 2022 in Hong Kong. This is a main year article that's for international events. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 23:35, 20 December 2022 (UTC)
Gilbert Gottfried should be added to deaths section Apr 12 2022 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.214.201.41 (talk) 13:08, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- Not done because he's not internationally notable enough - see FAQ & archives. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:23, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 24 December 2022
British musician and singer Terry Hall died on 18th December: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Hall_(singer) 86.1.160.100 (talk) 17:39, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- Is he internationally notable enough to include? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:20, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- @Jim Michael 2 - Rated Mid-Importance by WikiProject Reggae, which to me would suggest that the answer to that question is "yes". casualdejekyll 19:02, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- Project ratings don't indicate the subject's level of international notability. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 19:35, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- @Jim Michael 2 - Rated Mid-Importance by WikiProject Reggae, which to me would suggest that the answer to that question is "yes". casualdejekyll 19:02, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- Done casualdejekyll 19:08, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- I think it would be far more appropriate to have a discussion on his inclusion before arbitrarily including him. TheScrubby (talk) 20:10, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
Does Terry Hall have the substantial international notability for inclusion on the main yearly pages? TheScrubby (talk) 20:08, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- He's one of many examples of musicians who don't have significant individual international notability, but whose bands do. How do we measure their level of contribution to their bands? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 20:41, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- In this case, even his bands arguably doesn't have substantial international notability - the most notable is The Specials, and while they did have some international chart success, their success and popularity was by and large localised to the UK. They also won no major international musical awards. I'd honestly lean towards Exclude in this case. TheScrubby (talk) 23:01, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- Are there any other musicians currently in this article who you think shouldn't be, or any that aren't currently in it that you think should be? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 13:16, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- In this case, even his bands arguably doesn't have substantial international notability - the most notable is The Specials, and while they did have some international chart success, their success and popularity was by and large localised to the UK. They also won no major international musical awards. I'd honestly lean towards Exclude in this case. TheScrubby (talk) 23:01, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- He was too localized in his chart success, but Google Trends data shows (prior to his death) he had European followings. Substance seems on the lower end, so I would say Borderline Exclude with the evidence so far InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 05:15, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
Technological innovations inclusion bar
What is the inclusion bar for technological breakthroughs that occurred within 2022? Is there a consensus on this? 2022 in science has a compilation of such breakthroughs but does any of them have significant influence on an international level to be on the 2022 main page? FireInMe (talk) 20:51, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- I can't think of any that are important enough for this article. Do you specifically suggest any? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 21:32, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- I have no specific suggestions. But, I do see some significant progress in certain areas that's why I inquired about the inclusion bar. Many of them are just continuations of trends. I tend to agree that none seem important enough but it still prompts the question of the what is important enough criteria wise. For example, does it need to be a commercially available breakthrough that's available globally or does it just need to be a major discovery or innovation? FireInMe (talk) 21:51, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- Continuations of trends (in regard to any topic, not just tech) aren't important enough for main year articles. It wouldn't need to be global, but it'd need to have a substantial international effect on many people's lives. Minor improvements & niche products don't qualify. There was a discussion in which it was agreed that software isn't important enough. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 22:21, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- Continuations of trends (in regard to any topic, not just tech) aren't important enough for main year articles. We're in full agreement on that. I just think that some criteria should be established because some breakthroughs in innovation are clearly notable say towards progress in cancer research, artificial intelligence, or Genetic engineering (eg. CRISPR or cloning innovations). Progress in technology is exponential and I think some baseline consensus on what is notable for inclusion should be established as the years go on for main year articles. FireInMe (talk) 22:38, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- We wouldn't reach consensus for that; it's too complicated & there wouldn't be enough editors agreeing on all aspects of tech. Are there some things in previous main year articles that you think shouldn't be &/or things not in them that you think should be? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 13:16, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- I wholeheartedly agree with you in regards that it’s a complicated topic. It’s more of a “heads up”, there’s major predictions (of course some could be off). I have no doubt it will be a case-by-case basis it’s just a topic for editors to consider for main year pages. FireInMe (talk) 18:30, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- We certainly shouldn't include any predictions. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:39, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- I agree that we shouldn't include predictions per WP:CRYSTAL. What I'm saying is when the time comes and they do happen it's a wise decision to have a framework of their inclusion or exclusion. FireInMe (talk) 19:42, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think a detailed inclusion criteria will be agreed on. The many discussions on inclusion of sportspeople & entertainers still haven't reached a consensus in regard to their inclusion bars. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 20:00, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- I agree that we shouldn't include predictions per WP:CRYSTAL. What I'm saying is when the time comes and they do happen it's a wise decision to have a framework of their inclusion or exclusion. FireInMe (talk) 19:42, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- We certainly shouldn't include any predictions. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:39, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- I wholeheartedly agree with you in regards that it’s a complicated topic. It’s more of a “heads up”, there’s major predictions (of course some could be off). I have no doubt it will be a case-by-case basis it’s just a topic for editors to consider for main year pages. FireInMe (talk) 18:30, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- We wouldn't reach consensus for that; it's too complicated & there wouldn't be enough editors agreeing on all aspects of tech. Are there some things in previous main year articles that you think shouldn't be &/or things not in them that you think should be? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 13:16, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- Continuations of trends (in regard to any topic, not just tech) aren't important enough for main year articles. We're in full agreement on that. I just think that some criteria should be established because some breakthroughs in innovation are clearly notable say towards progress in cancer research, artificial intelligence, or Genetic engineering (eg. CRISPR or cloning innovations). Progress in technology is exponential and I think some baseline consensus on what is notable for inclusion should be established as the years go on for main year articles. FireInMe (talk) 22:38, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- Continuations of trends (in regard to any topic, not just tech) aren't important enough for main year articles. It wouldn't need to be global, but it'd need to have a substantial international effect on many people's lives. Minor improvements & niche products don't qualify. There was a discussion in which it was agreed that software isn't important enough. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 22:21, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
- There are a few, but they're mostly American. I'm referring to ChatGPT, Artemis 1, the Fusion stuff, maybe SpaceX Starlink, etc. Don't think it's enough until we're no longer CRYSTALBALLing. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 05:17, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
- I have no specific suggestions. But, I do see some significant progress in certain areas that's why I inquired about the inclusion bar. Many of them are just continuations of trends. I tend to agree that none seem important enough but it still prompts the question of the what is important enough criteria wise. For example, does it need to be a commercially available breakthrough that's available globally or does it just need to be a major discovery or innovation? FireInMe (talk) 21:51, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
Nov and Dec deaths
Several of the people in the November & December subsections of Deaths have importance tags on them. Which of those people should stay & which should be removed? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 13:16, 25 December 2022 (UTC)
- I have no objection to all of them being removed. _-_Alsor (talk) 09:14, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
- I am not familiar with many of the people tagged but I would argue that Colonel Joseph Kittinger should be included. He took part in both Project Manhigh and Project Excelsior, the latter of which he held the record for highest skydive (102,800ft) for over 50 years and still holds the record for the longest freefall. Excelsior was used to help test the multi-stage parachute, something still in use to this day. For his efforts he was indicted into the National Aviation Hall of Fame and even has a park named after him. CaptainGalaxy 21:57, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- Do those things give him substantial international notability? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 02:26, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
- The records he set are international records that even the Soviets were trying to beat. The parachutes he tested are still in use today although modified from his initial design. If it helps he was also the first person to perform a solo crossing of the Atlantic Ocean in a gas balloon. CaptainGalaxy 02:31, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
- Do those things give him substantial international notability? Jim Michael 2 (talk) 02:26, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 26 December 2022
There is an request for an event to be added:
- “23 June – i12 Katong shopping mall is officially reopened by Keppel Land after nearly 2 years of renovation.”
It is a notable event moment. — 12.171.253.138 (talk) 01:01, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
- Not done because it's a domestic event for 2022 in Singapore. This article is for international events. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 07:33, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
- This wouldn't even meet the notability criteria for that. It's just a mall. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 16:48, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
- I agree. Malls are renovated every year, it's not at all notable. Unless this particular mall is notable for another reason it should be excluded. FireInMe (talk) 22:59, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
- FYI, It's since been removed from 2022 in Singapore. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 01:41, 31 December 2022 (UTC)
- I agree. Malls are renovated every year, it's not at all notable. Unless this particular mall is notable for another reason it should be excluded. FireInMe (talk) 22:59, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
- This wouldn't even meet the notability criteria for that. It's just a mall. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 16:48, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
Pelé
Should Pelé (who died today) be added in the paragraph that goes "The year included many prominent deaths of notable figures, including world leaders Shinzo Abe, Mikhail Gorbachev, Queen Elizabeth II, and Jiang Zemin, as well as entertainers Sidney Poitier, Olivia Newton-John, Jean-Luc Godard, Angela Lansbury, and Jerry Lee Lewis"? And if there would be a consensus to his inclusion, where should he be added? Would it be between Jiang Zemin and Sidney Poitier, or after Jerry Lee Lewis? Vida0007 (talk) 19:14, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- Very strong include. Global sporting legend. Wjfox2005 (talk) 19:17, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed. Speedy inclusion of Pele is needed. 2601:249:8E00:420:7D41:8C6B:2BFE:2201 (talk) 19:19, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- Include strongly for Pele after Jerry Lee Lewis. Additionally, given the news coming out, Pope Benedict XVI should also be Included once there is confirmation of his passing. PaulRKil (talk) 19:56, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- We don't know that Benedict will die this month. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 20:27, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- Include definitely, and after Jerry Lee Lewis, as he is not a politician or entertainer, so should be separate from both, a notable passing, one of the greatest athletes of all time. AlexJacques95 (talk) 19:27, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- Include. By far one of the most recognisable figures in the world, perhaps the second most notable death of the year. PolPot1975 (talk) 20:55, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- I don't know how you could measure if his notability is higher than that of Jiang Zemin & Shinzo Abe, but like them he should certainly be in the lead & have a photo. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 21:17, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- 100% Strong Include. Someone doesn't need to be a Soccer (Football) fan to know who Pelé was, I don't follow soccer and I know he's famous in the sport. I'm surprised this is a topic of discussion. FireInMe (talk) 22:31, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
- The discussion and him being removed once is because there's a hidden note in the lead saying not to add anyone else to it without talkpage consensus. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 02:26, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
- @Jim Michael 2 I see, thanks for letting me know. FireInMe (talk) 17:13, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
- The discussion and him being removed once is because there's a hidden note in the lead saying not to add anyone else to it without talkpage consensus. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 02:26, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
- ^ "New telecoms law to take effect". news.gov.hk. Hong Kong Government.
- ^ "Telecommunications (Registration of SIM Cards) Regulation". Hong Kong e-Legislation. Hong Kong Government. Retrieved 2021-12-30.
- ^ "Hong Kong adds 55,353 Covid cases on Wednesday". The Standard. 2 March 2022.