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RFC Victim names
- The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Should the article include the names and other biographical information of the victims (killed, or wounded)? 22:39, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
RfC survey
- do not include per WP:BLPNAME and WP:NOTMEMORIAL. All of these individuals are low profile, and likely to remain so. For those that remain alive, we are potentially exposing them to future risks, or at least unwanted attention. If some of them become higher profile as a result of this incident (multiple media interviews, becoming a spokesperson, etc) they can become an exception.This is almost to the point that it should be preemptively removed under WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE based on BLP policy and the numerous precedents, until there is a clear and substantial majority consensus here. Gaijin42 (talk) 22:39, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- Include the names, ages, and city of residence of the deceased victims, but exclude the list of the injured and other biographical details. This seems to be a rational middle ground, in my mind. Neutralitytalk 23:32, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
- Include all of it, as it's proven already that both those killed and those seriously injured and shot are in all news reports, and emerging as notable, and definitely sourced. They were not just "injured" but were shot. And operated on in hospitals. Badly traumatized, both physically and psychologically. And these people are important, to the whole event. I was not the one who first put any victims' names section. But since it was there, let's make it thorough and right. Include the 14 dead, and the 21 seriously injured,...as they always are mentioned all the time in news sources..."21 injured", and the names themselves as they emerge in reliable sources. Redzemp (talk) 00:21, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Exclude all wounded, they are not notable and will recover in time. Wounded are generally not listed in other terrorism attack articles. Include only name and age of the deceased. WWGB (talk) 00:27, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- response comment: these people are important, to the whole event. I was not the one who first put any victims' names section. But since it was there, let's make it thorough and right. Also, as to your remark that they "will recover in time". A) even physically that's not necessarily always totally true, and B) psychologically NONE of them will completely recover, as they are PTSD traumatized here, forever. I know the subject on that. And as they were not just injured but were SHOT! Include the 14 dead, and the 21 seriously injured, as they always are mentioned all the time in news sources..."21 injured", and the names themselves as they emerge in reliable sources. Redzemp (talk) 00:31, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Comment - This is exactly the problem. People are reacting in an emotional way to this, instead of a rational one. It's terribly unfortunate what happened to these people, but that doesn't mean we ignore wiki-policy. WP:NOTMEMORIAL was established for a reason. An encyclopaedia is not the place for these kinds of lists. These people are not notable, the event they were a part of was. - theWOLFchild 12:58, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- response comment: these people are important, to the whole event. I was not the one who first put any victims' names section. But since it was there, let's make it thorough and right. Also, as to your remark that they "will recover in time". A) even physically that's not necessarily always totally true, and B) psychologically NONE of them will completely recover, as they are PTSD traumatized here, forever. I know the subject on that. And as they were not just injured but were SHOT! Include the 14 dead, and the 21 seriously injured, as they always are mentioned all the time in news sources..."21 injured", and the names themselves as they emerge in reliable sources. Redzemp (talk) 00:31, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Include - Just the names and ages of those killed only. Should be simple enough for a list. Besides, I doubt we'll be able to learn the names of all the wounded. Parsley Man (talk) 00:43, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Exclude wounded, per Gaijin42. Also agree that it needs to be removed per WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE. - Cwobeel (talk) 00:53, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Include only biographical information on those who were killed. Unless there has been significant coverage in reliable sources on the individuals who were injured (outside just a passing mention) I do not agree with adding their names to avoid WP:NOTMEMORIAL. Meatsgains (talk) 03:08, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Include all of it. I basically agree with Redzemp that information on both killed and injured should be included. But only on the condition that every bit of it is very reliably sourced.
Richard27182 (talk) 07:37, 9 December 2015 (UTC) - Do not include - Granted this is an WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument, but I don't think we usually include list of victims on other similar massacre pages. Additionally, Gaijin42 is probably citing the most relevant policy here, which is WP:NOTMEMORIAL. NickCT (talk) 14:13, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Do not include per WP:BLPNAME and WP:NOTMEMORIAL. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper or a mirror of breaking news stories. The dead and wounded were in the news because of one event, being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Only if they were independently notable, or if they somehow caused, mitigated or influenced the event should they be named in the event. Then an article might say "Jones taunted the couple about their religion leading them to abandon their plans to attack the military base, and instead to attack the luncheon. Smith then pulled his concealed revolver and wounded one of the shooters, causing them to leave the building. Brown followed the shooters and phoned in their license plate information, leading to their apprehension." We usually do not list memorial facts about each person who was in the wrong place at the wrong time and became a victim of a shooting, a plane crash, a flood, a bombing, or an earthquake. Edison (talk) 15:09, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Include biographical information about those killed. We ought to realize they are the most important aspect of the shooting! Reject all the patriarchical notions floating around this encyclopedia that murderers are active and exciting and victims are meaningless and boring. The killers were the interchangeable mounts of demons, but the people killed define the character of the massacre, and create the pattern of expectations that those who survive them will carry out. From this sad beginning will emerge top cops and Medal of Honor soldiers, priests and mystics, town ordinances for gun control and armed community watch groups, peace movements and calls for chivalrous military intervention. These events are related to the dead as the size and shape of a nuclear crater is related to the position and construction of the bomb. The killers contributed only the decision to set it off; they could not control what it was that they have set into motion. We cannot go out ahead of the sources we use in projecting this awareness, but we should definitely not lag behind them. (note: I'm reserving judgment about the wounded - I'm not sure how serious any threat to them might be, while the merit to including them is weaker. UNLESS they figure directly in future news coverage, not just as names in a table, in which case we should cover them in prose specific to those events) Wnt (talk) 15:59, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Include the names and ages of those killed per WP:RS, WP:V and WP:BLP, include the number of victims but with no names or ages. WP:NOTMEMORIAL is not applicable to the listing of the killed/injured as they are not the Subjects of encyclopedia articles.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 17:41, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Include all or most - Support inclusion of basic biographical information on those shot. Support summary information on the wounded in the attack, but would not oppose a listing of the wounded. Do oppose biographical info on wounded. Bod (talk) 21:45, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- Exclude wounded names per WP:BLPNAME, which counsels caution when identifying individuals discussed primarily as part of a single event. There are privacy concerns, and as a high-profile site, Wikipedia may bring them additional unwanted attention. A count or other summary of the injured would be appropriate for inclusion though, and BLP policy does not address those killed. —Laoris (talk) 23:08, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
- comment response: Laoris, while you make a decent point about "privacy", sorry, but it's somewhat negated (obviously, frankly) given the fact that those names are already revealed in reliable sources...already, and many of those people are themselves speaking about their experience to the media. Which (to use the word, in effect) "waives" any "privacy" issues. You're making it out that it would be only Wikipedia revealing their names or something, even though it was already done by RS and media reporters, many times with no objection by those people. If the names were not in reliable sources, regarding this tragic event, then WP should not be including them. Even outfits like CNN have made a big point (even somewhat neurotically at times I must admit) of NOT focusing more on the name of the perp(s), and more so on the victims, their names, their families, their stories, etc. If CNN (and others) can do it, then WP is not violating (IMO) "privacy concerns". Redzemp (talk) 14:44, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- I understand where you're coming from, but Wikipedia has generally pushed for some "BLP" standards that hinder the sort of museum-archive approach I might prefer to see. I think it should be a no-brainer to include those killed because death is a public event; but getting shot is more like a personal medical problem. And as a medical problem ... it is measured in shades of gray. I haven't looked up in this case, but someone 'wounded' can range from being in a persistent vegetative state to having a nasty graze that required some stitches before they went on their way, or being hit by shrapnel that had to be pulled out with a forceps. The lack of a strong all-or-nothing boundary is what clinches leaving a plain list of wounded out, as I see it. I can just picture where someone got shaken up and taken to the hospital over his objections and now everyone he knows is reading about the event and asking him OMG were you hit? We probably don't want to be there. However, when it comes to simply adding prose, adding eyewitness accounts, we certainly do want to name the wounded and describe them when they've gone to the press and told their stories. But that's as a part of our reporting of the event, rather than as part of a list. Wnt (talk) 22:15, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
- comment response: Laoris, while you make a decent point about "privacy", sorry, but it's somewhat negated (obviously, frankly) given the fact that those names are already revealed in reliable sources...already, and many of those people are themselves speaking about their experience to the media. Which (to use the word, in effect) "waives" any "privacy" issues. You're making it out that it would be only Wikipedia revealing their names or something, even though it was already done by RS and media reporters, many times with no objection by those people. If the names were not in reliable sources, regarding this tragic event, then WP should not be including them. Even outfits like CNN have made a big point (even somewhat neurotically at times I must admit) of NOT focusing more on the name of the perp(s), and more so on the victims, their names, their families, their stories, etc. If CNN (and others) can do it, then WP is not violating (IMO) "privacy concerns". Redzemp (talk) 14:44, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
- Include the names of the deceased victims. It is spurious to cite WP:BLP... these victims are dead, i.e.. not living persons anymore. Furthermore, the victims and basic biographic data are entirely relevant as they were the subjects of the attack, ie., the very immediate purpose of the terrorists. The victim data throws light on the whys and wherefores of the attack. XavierItzm (talk) 02:17, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Limited include: Include only the name and age of the victims. No residences, no location of wounds, only name and age. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:28, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
- Exclude WP:NOTMEMORIAL AIRcorn (talk) 21:47, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
- Do not include current practice is to only list victims if they have or likely to have a wikipedia article by being notable before the event. MilborneOne (talk) 22:02, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
- That makes no sense. Our threshold for mentioning someone in an article should naturally be much lower than our threshold for writing a complete article just about them. Wnt (talk) 22:19, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
- I am only reflecting current practice in other accident and disaster articles and the "have or likely to have a wikipedia article" is a good measure of notablity, wikipedia is clearly not a place to list non-notable victims or we just turn the place into one big memorial website. A link to a reliable source with names is all that is required. MilborneOne (talk) 14:17, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- That makes no sense. Our threshold for mentioning someone in an article should naturally be much lower than our threshold for writing a complete article just about them. Wnt (talk) 22:19, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
- No Names unless quoting them. I prefer to see broad info like 12 worked for the county and ranged in age from 24-56 (Just made up numbers by me). We should not be naming large numbers of victims. Legacypac (talk) 03:58, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- Include User:MilborneOne is dead wrong. Current practice is to include names. Just look at all the 2015 mass shooting articles. Every single one of them includes the list of victims. WP:Memorial applies to creating articles for non-notable people for memorial purposes. It has nothing to do with lists. The individuals may not be notable individually, but the list of them is notable - and there's no reason to make an exception for this article. Rklawton (talk) 04:05, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- Clearly not dead-wrong I am just reflecting the level of inclusion in other accident and disaster articles, a long list of non-notable victims is clearly not wikipedias job as it is not really encyclopedic and to be honest does not add any value to the articles. Perhaps we are confusing an encyclopedia with a memorial site. MilborneOne (talk) 14:17, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- Include the names. They are WP:NOTABLE for inclusion due to coverage in multiple reliable news sources. Moreover, it has become standard practice to indluce the names of those killed in terror attacks.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:02, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- Note the parallel conversation underway at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Victims of the November 2015 Paris attacks.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:02, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- Do not include names of deceased per WP:NOTMEMORIAL (which was created with 9/11 in mind, so definitely applies to lists of victims in terrorist acts) and WP:INDISCRIMINATE (since the deceased people have no notability on their own). The fact that newspaper may have included victim names is irrelevant per WP:NOTNEWS. About the wounded, WP:BLP concerns may additionally apply. LjL (talk) 16:47, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- Include the names. They are WP:NOTABLE for inclusion due to WP:SIGCOV. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 17:04, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- NOTE: that the names and, often, life stories of the victims have appeared in multiple, reliable news media. WP:MEMORIAL does not address this situation. This debate is not a matter of policy. There is no policy re: including names of victims of terrorism whose names and life stories have been widely published in significant, reliable media. What we have here is a difference of opinion. And the citation of different precedents: Names of the 9/11 dead were not listed on WP. Those of the dead in more recent terrorist attacks have routinely been listed on WP. Since we have no applicable policy or rule, let's all stop citing policies that do not apply. And, instead, treat this like any other aspect of the San Barnardino massacre story, to wit: as with other information (type of weapons, role of Enrique Marquez) we include well-sourced victims names in the article simply because it is verifiable, and has had widespread and significant coverage in multiple reliable forms of media.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:27, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- With all the respect I can muster for the victims and their families, their life stories and personal details are not encyclopedic material. - Cwobeel (talk) 17:30, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- I intended only to suggest that the sources covering victims' life-stories provides sufficient notability for including their names. We can blue-link any notable ones, of course.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:54, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- Remove (do not include) as Wikipedia is not a memorial, not a collection of indiscriminate information, and furthermore, is an encylopaedia. These names are not significant from an encyclopaedic perspective, and to include them is to give WP:UNDUE weight to the part of this event that is least encyclopaedic, i.e. the deaths of non-notable individuals. Merely because their names are listed in news media does not make them notable from an encyclopaedic perspective. RGloucester — ☎ 17:58, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- The victims are the "least encyclopaedic" aspect of this attack? Does anyone even remember the 1991 Toronto bomb plot? How about the 2014 Tours stabbing attack? Probably not, because no one was died. WP:NOTPAPER.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:37, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- The individual people that died are irrelevant and not encyclopaedic. They have no significance. The encyclopaedic aspect of this event is rooted in the political repercussions of it, alongside the motives and underlying causes of it. That people died renders it more significant than if they had not, but the individual people themselves are irrelevant, unless the people were independently notable prior to the attack. It does not make a difference who those non-notable people are, whether they were called "Jean DuBois" or "Marie Boulanger" or "John Smith" or "Sarah Baker". The significance does not lie with the non-notable people that died, but with the event itself. This may seem harsh, but an encylopaedia is not meant to be an emotional affair. RGloucester — ☎ 18:58, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- Include as something resembling what it is now: an overview of who was shot, and a list of the dead. (That said, I've moved one barely-qualifies-to-be-here sentence to the footnotes.) To argue that the victims are irrelevant is stunningly wrong: one, as I've argued before, when applying BLP the shooters are no more nor less notable than their victims, and to wash one clean from the article would require removing both; and two, had a pair of wannabe terrorists shot up an empty building, there might not even be an article—that we have 14 dead and 22 injured is the entire reason this is worthy. Frankly, this discussion shouldn't even be happening. —ATinySliver/ATalkPage 🖖 20:13, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- If you are referring to my comment, you've made an error. The victims are indeed irrelevant. Please explain why saying "sixteen dead and twenty-two injured" will not suffice in this case? What do these names add to the article from an encyclopaedic perspective? Nothing. Indeed, that these people died is relevant, but who they are is not. RGloucester — ☎ 20:46, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- Comment and Respond to RGloucesterSo now there is this, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Casualties of the 2008 Mumbai attacks (2nd nomination). the 3rd AFD for that particular article, and a possible violation of WP:POINT. I to a look at the article and it, not the article itself, but an old version, a list version deleted somewhat arbitrarily, made me rethink this discussion. Here and scroll down to the list of individual names: [1]. Seeing the names of individuals creates a very different understanding of an event than a statistical summary. After seeing that list, I want to redouble my argument on behalf of creating and keeping such lists of slaughtered human beings. Lists of individual people Failing to list them as individuals, while describing the lives, motives, and circumstances of the killers at length - sometimes with empathy, but always as individual people with names, now seems to me to actively discount the loss produced by these attacks, to give WP:UNDUE weight to the perspective of killers and actually if inadvertently to tend towards producing the biased articles that we all strive to avoid.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:21, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- RGloucester, if one were to equitably apply your argument to the article, that the attackers shot the people who died is relevant, but who they were is not. Every respect, your argument is totally, completely, utterly, horribly wrong. —ATinySliver/ATalkPage 🖖 23:55, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- This is incorrect. That's because it is essential to know who the attackers were if one wants to explain the motive behind the attack, as an encyclopaedic article demands. The lives of the people that died had no effect on the attack itself, unlike the lives of the attackers. RGloucester — ☎ 23:58, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) This is incorrect. We do not have a terrorist attack—and, therefore, an article—without its victims. That we have victims is the point. —ATinySliver/ATalkPage 🖖 00:03, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- That is also incorrect. Would it be wrong to say that a suicide bomber that blows himself up without harming anyone (else) wasn't a terrorist attack? There may have been intended victims, and it probably would not be notable enough for an article, but it would still be an attack, eh? ansh666 01:18, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- Okay, you can remove your tongue from your cheek now ... —ATinySliver/ATalkPage 🖖 01:58, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- That is also incorrect. Would it be wrong to say that a suicide bomber that blows himself up without harming anyone (else) wasn't a terrorist attack? There may have been intended victims, and it probably would not be notable enough for an article, but it would still be an attack, eh? ansh666 01:18, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) This is incorrect. We do not have a terrorist attack—and, therefore, an article—without its victims. That we have victims is the point. —ATinySliver/ATalkPage 🖖 00:03, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- @ATinySliver: except, of course, that you may need to refer to the attackers to say things about them individually. That's what names exist for in the first place. With the victims, there's generally nothing to say apart from the fact they died. So it's your rebuttal that's wrong (and your row of adjectives doesn't make it impressive). LjL (talk) 00:00, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- Except, of course, that in this
AFDRFC we are discussing long-standing co-workers well-known to at least the male attacker. And, since this is anAFDRFC, and, therefore, about a specific case, your argument that "there's generally nothing to say apart from the fact they died," is not pertinent.E.M.Gregory (talk) 02:08, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- What? This is NOT an WP:AfD discussion... ansh666 02:13, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- Sorry, fixed.E.M.Gregory (talk) 02:35, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- What? This is NOT an WP:AfD discussion... ansh666 02:13, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- Except, of course, that in this
- Se my just-added reply to RG. —ATinySliver/ATalkPage 🖖 00:03, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- This is incorrect. That's because it is essential to know who the attackers were if one wants to explain the motive behind the attack, as an encyclopaedic article demands. The lives of the people that died had no effect on the attack itself, unlike the lives of the attackers. RGloucester — ☎ 23:58, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- If you are referring to my comment, you've made an error. The victims are indeed irrelevant. Please explain why saying "sixteen dead and twenty-two injured" will not suffice in this case? What do these names add to the article from an encyclopaedic perspective? Nothing. Indeed, that these people died is relevant, but who they are is not. RGloucester — ☎ 20:46, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
- Exclude all, per WP:BLPNAME and WP:NOTMEMORIAL. ansh666 00:48, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- Comment - I changed the header of this section so that it would not conflict with the previous #Survey for the move request. ansh666 00:49, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
(6-day Tally) Highly premature, RFCs go for 30 days and we are barely a week in.
NOTE: This is not an AfD. AfD runs for 7+ days. |
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Tally Include: 15 "Do Not": 5 Remove: 1 Exclude: 1 "Exclude Wounded": 4 Bod (talk) 00:08, 15 December 2015 (UTC) Please note that this tally was merely provided for convenience and does not imply that the RFC has ended before uninvolved closure or that it is a WP:VOTE. LjL (talk) 00:52, 15 December 2015 (UTC) |
- Do Not Include - as per that pesky little thing called wiki-policy. A simple table with a breakdown of deaths, injuries, genders and ages will suffice. Show me a complete list of every victim in every mass-death event from WWI & WWII to 9/11 to current events in Syria and Africa, and I might change my mind... - theWOLFchild 12:48, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- Fact check In fact, no wiki-policy on whether to include casualty lists exists, which is why we are currently having this RFC and 2 AFDs on this question.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:03, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- Reality-check - if you even bothered to actually read some of the comments, instead of just continuously drowning them out in your constant noise, you'd see that many people have cited multiple Wikipedia policies. - theWOLFchild 19:30, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
- As I said, there is no clear wiki-policy on whether to include casualty lists. Merely custom (we did not used to), current practice (in recent years, articles on terror attacks consistently list casualties by name), and interpretation.E.M.Gregory (talk) 10:28, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
- Since when is wiki-policy subject to "interpretation"? I think wp:notamemorial, and the nearly dozen other relevant policies, are quite clear on this. No interpretation required. - theWOLFchild 00:17, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- Because you are treating a small list of names as a MEMORIAL. The policy deals with the creation of articles explicitly for the purposes of memorializing the dead. This is one small part of a larger article. If the perps and their names have been made notable by killing, then the killed and their names should be made notable as well. Bod (talk) 00:39, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- WP:NOT is not about article subjects, it is about content in general. It applies no matter how small a part of the article it is. ansh666 00:43, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- Even so, there is interpretation of that policy for every user of this survey up until the point the policy is written with a mention of casualty lists taken from newspapers following tragic events like mass shootings and terrorist attacks. You can see the list as a memorial because the otherwise "regular" people have been named and made notable, or you can see it as simply wanting the article to be the most complete it can be, describing location, method, perps, and victims. If you feel the same quality of information can be delivered with a summary of those killed, then vote against. Bod (talk) 01:05, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- Or you can recognize that WP:NOTMEMORIAL was written after, for and because of 9/11, in order to stop lists of its victims, and as such it indisputably applies to tragic events like mass shootings and terrorist attacks. LjL (talk) 01:08, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- I keep thinking this policy is some gigantic, obscure, arcane jumble of technical words. It's not. Here it is:
- Since when is wiki-policy subject to "interpretation"? I think wp:notamemorial, and the nearly dozen other relevant policies, are quite clear on this. No interpretation required. - theWOLFchild 00:17, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
MEMORIAL POLICY
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Subjects of encyclopedia articles must satisfy Wikipedia's notability requirements. Wikipedia is not the place to memorialize deceased friends, relatives, acquaintances, or others who do not meet such requirements. |
If the perps and their names have been made notable by killing, then the killed and their names should be made notable as well.- That is your opinion, and it's an emotional one at that. It's not policy and has no place in an encyclopaedia. The event is notable. Someone committing mass-murder and mayhem makes them notable. Unfortunately, simply being the victim of a mass-casualty event does not make someone notable. There are multiple wiki-policies that are clear on this. - theWOLFchild 02:21, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- You are free to have an opinion on the matter. You can interpret the generalized policies that exist. And if you have a specific policy addressing the naming of victims or casualties in an attack, do share with the rest of us. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the sources for this article are all news sources. Bod (talk) 04:14, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- Numerous editors have now cited numerous policies, but you continually choose to ignore them. - theWOLFchild 08:18, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- Do not include per WP:NLIST unless some blue-linked person has died in it. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {Talk / Edits} 11:21, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
- Do not list names per WP:NOTMEMORIAL unless they are highly relevant to the story or otherwise have an article. Descriptions of victim demographics/profiles as already exist in the article are fine though. ---- Patar knight - chat/contributions 04:03, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- Note that in this case the victims were not strangers, they were long-time office mates well known to the shooter.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:16, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- Failing to see the relevance of that. ansh666 21:27, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- Ditto. - theWOLFchild 23:00, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- It means they may have been killed in part for *who* they were in relation to the shooter. Not just where they happened to be when the building was targeted. Bod (talk) 22:49, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- Failing to see the relevance of that. ansh666 21:27, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
Merge proposal 19 December 2015
Merge proposal - resolved
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It has been proposed by SMcCandlish that the page Enrique Marquez (US citizen) be merged here, with the reason "If the perps don't have their own articles a minor suspect, not notable aside from this event, doesn't need one either." Creating the merge proposal thread (step 1) on his behalf. Note that this is also being discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Enrique Marquez (accomplice). Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 13:49, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
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Use of the word Jihad
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I am closing this discussion. The conversation here has wandered extremely far afield of discussions of article content, and has drifted (as the participants seem to acknowledge) into a generalized forum-style discussion about Islamic theology over six days. While very erudite, this is not particularly helpful to article content matters. If users want to discuss use of the term in this article (e.g., in the infobox or elsewhere), they are welcome to open a new section on this talk page below. Let's try to keep any new conversation focused. Neutralitytalk 05:02, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
I think care should be taken in the use of the word jihad, which basically means struggle. Certainly there are those that use the word to indicate religious struggle in various manners. But, the popular media has used it so often to indicate violence that I would guess this is the meaning that most people think of. Objective3000 (talk) 19:25, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- "[S]truggle" is a pretty sanitized definition of Jihad. There are numerous Hadith (the words and deed of Muhammad) that make the meaning very clear, and apply it to fighting: "...there is no migration after the Conquest of Mecca, but Jihad and good intention remain; and if one is called by the Muslim ruler for fighting, one should go forth immediately." The difference between the meanings is whether or not Jihad is taking place within the Ummah, in which case it tends to mean general struggle, or if Jihad is taking place in the world at large, in which case it is part of spreading Islam and tends to mean fighting. grifterlake (talk) 23:07, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- This is clearly not a NPOV. Words mean what they mean. We cannot compare the old chapters of the Quran with the new chapters of the Bible, any more than we can do the opposite. The old books of the Bible call for total annihilation of nonbelievers. The new chapters of the Quran call for tolerance and respect Christ as a great prophet. Let not an encyclopedia promulgate misunderstanding. If we are to use inflammatory words against Muslim murderers, shouldn't we use the same words against those that bomb Planned Parenthood, or bombed Iraq, and assign that to their religion? Objective3000 (talk) 01:18, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- Exactly: "the overwhelming majority of classical theologians, jurists", and specialists in the hadith "understood the obligation of jihad in a military sense."And it is the Hadith, not the Quran that takes precedence in understanding how Islam is to be practiced. To Muslims, the Quran is the word of Allah, as transcribed to Muhammad. The Hadith are the words and deeds of Muhammad, and serve as the example for all Muslims to follow in order to live according to the will of Allah. In the same way that Christians look to Jesus as the example of how to live--exemplified by the question, "What Would Jesus Do?", the Hadith exemplifies the example of Muhammad for all Muslims to follow, i.e. "What Would Muhammad Do?" The difference is that the example of of how Jesus lived is valid across the ages; His actions and example then would be equally appropriate now, and all time in between. Islam is in conflict when the same comparison is applied to it. There are Muslims who do follow the example of Muhammad, as set forth in the Hadith, and they are the Muslims we see engaged in violent Jihad, perpetrating acts of terrorism, marrying child brides, etc. There are also Muslims who don't interpret the Hadith the same way, but are in conflict, as well in that if they don't interpret the Hadith in the same way as their violent brethren they are rejecting Muhammad as the perfect example of how to live one's life. That's why the word Jihad is appropriate to include as motive in the information box. grifterlake (talk) 02:43, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- This is exactly what I worry about. You are saying that you aren't a true Muslim if you don't have a specific set of beliefs. You can find equally repugnant nonsense in the Bible. Indeed, Old Testament quotes are constantly used by Christians against homosexuals, and even mixing of races. That doesn't make all Christians bigots and racists. One billion Muslims certainly do not believe they must violently push Islam. In fact, the Quran says "You will have your religion and I shall have mine." The newer chapters in the Quran conflict with the older chapters. The same is true of the Bible. Jihad has different meanings to different people. Objective3000 (talk) 12:54, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- Your mistake is that you are focusing on the Quran, when the key to understanding how Islam is to be practiced is the Hadith. The Quran is a short book that can be read fairly quickly. The Hadith is comprised of many volumes, and encompasses tens of thousands of pages. And yes, Christians do point to the Old Testament to support what they believe is right or wrong. And yes, homosexuality has been and is still seen as a sinful behavior by both Christians and Jews. But Christians point to Jesus as the example to show how one must live the most Godly life possible. Muslims point to Muhammad as the example of how to live one's life as Godly as possible. There are four elements of Islam that can not be separated from the religion as a whole. They are the Quran, the Hadith, the Ummah and Sharia law--the Word of Allah, the words and deeds of Muhammad, the Muslim community and the law which governs an Islamic environment. Remove any of those four elements and you are no longer within the matrix of Islam. The Quran will tell you what the law is, but the Hadith will tell you how to interpret and live out that law. The Hadith, not the Quran provides guidance, based on the words and deeds of Muhammad on how to treat members of the Muslim community (Ummah) and how to treat non-members. And the Hadith, not the Quran will tell you how to interpret and apply Sharia law. So yes, I stand by my statement that Muslims who don't follow the example of Muhammad, as set forth in the Hadith are in conflict with how Imams and Hadith scholars teach how Islam should be practiced. When you see suicide bombers and terrorists perpetrating violence, it is the Hadith from which they are taking their cue for action. grifterlake (talk) 16:44, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- As fascinating this discussion may be, this page is not a discussion forum. I fail to see how this discussion helps improve this article. - Cwobeel (talk) 19:59, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- There's a lot of stuff that I can add, but I have to agree, this is not a forum to discuss endlessly these matters in this way, UNLESS there's some real way that it helps or corrects or improves or appropriately expands an article. Though Objective3000 and Grifterlake keep going on about it. But even so, I'll just say this for now, (though I could say much more on it), the fact is that the Koran specifically exempts the disabled and elderly from Jihad (4:95), which would make no sense if the word is being used merely within the context of spiritual or inner struggle. It is also unclear why Mohammad and his Quran would use graphic language, such as smiting fingers and heads from the hands and necks of unbelievers if he were speaking merely of character development. Hello, Objective3000, but I have to agree with Grifterlake, on this, having nothing to do with personal whims or feelings, but on the actual empirical texts and facts themselves. The Koran has "jihad" as physical fighting, not just some "inner struggle" as some "moderate" (dishonest) Muslims are trying to convey, as being the "sole" meaning of "Jihad" in Islam (and of course the liberal lying media, on every turn, to white-wash what really goes on). And no, the Koran does not call for tolerance of non-believers, but calls for their slaying "wherever you find them", and was only "tolerant" when Mohammad and his crew were in the MINORITY. As soon as Muslims gain power and populace, they're no longer for "religious freedom" for others, conveniently. Churches are banned in Saudi Arabia. There's no freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom of expression, freedom of speech, or freedom of assembly, in predominantly Muslim countries. Because Muslims are the majority obviously...like in Saudi Arabia, the Center of the Religion. Sorry for perpetuating the "forum", but trust me, there's LOTS more I wanted to say and to add, like the meaning of the word "Islam", that some Muslim apologists on the news lie about, and other things. And there's a way this relates to the article, as far as what was in Forook's and Malik's mind, and what the media (regarding this and other things) is attempting to do and convey. Redzemp (talk) 20:31, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- Cwobeel, the relevance to this article is the prevalence and misuse of the charged word jihad in this article. YES, you can find the word jihad used in conjunction with violence (and with non-violence). In the Bible, you can find the word purify in conjunction with violence and entire cities, women, children and oxen, slaughtered because they did not follow the right god. A biased image is being presented. Objective3000 (talk) 20:48, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- Some of Redzemp's absolute statements about all Muslim countries are flat-out wrong and belong nowhere near an encyclopedia. It is clear he has a strong negative bias related to this article. Objective3000 (talk) 21:22, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- Objective3000, I don't recall using the word "all" anywhere, but as in real Muslim countries, the general situation is there...though someone may desperately bring up "Malaysia" which has been a matter of debate whether it's an actual "Islamic state" or really a secular state, that is just nominally Muslim. That's NOT the example to honestly go by, but Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt, etc. Where little to no religious freedom exists. Facts can be stubborn and annoying, we know, but they remain fact. The centers of the religion, mainly Saudi Arabia (Sunni) and Iran (Shiite) allow little to zero free religious exercise, in any true actual sense. And also it is a fact that this is the general statistical trend, regarding other countries, generally speaking, that once Muslims gain numbers, power, and majority in a country, true "religious tolerance" (not just dhimmies), goes right out the window. But even so, I was focusing more on "Saudi Arabia"...where, factually, churches are BANNED. And so is any spreading of any faith of any other religion besides Islam. Also, my main point in my comment was about the Koranic definition and indication of "Jihad"...as in Surah 4:95. But regardless of my personal research and views, I try hard to not let "bias" get into actual articles of this "encyclopedia". It's about NPOV and reliable sources. And facts. And coherence. Period. This is a TALK page, not an actual official article page. And also, it can be argued that you yourself have "bias" in favor of Islam and apologizing for it all the time, and also an anti-Bible bias. So? I don't say "should be nowhere near an encyclopedia" like you're doing though. This is a discussion page. But Cwobeel is right, this should not be turned into some blog or forum either. Regards. Redzemp (talk) 21:45, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- Some of Redzemp's absolute statements about all Muslim countries are flat-out wrong and belong nowhere near an encyclopedia. It is clear he has a strong negative bias related to this article. Objective3000 (talk) 21:22, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- OK, you backed off from
no freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom of expression, freedom of speech, or freedom of assembly, in predominantly Muslim countries
to Saudi Arabia. But, you are still cherry-picking phrases from the Quran to broad-brush a billion people. You can do the same with the Bible. As for me having a pro-Muslim bias, I'm Jewish. Objective3000 (talk) 21:51, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- OK, you backed off from
- Cwobeel, it makes "this" article better because it more accurately reflects the true motive for the attack,, which has now been changed to "under investigation". That's inaccurate, and prior to that change the motive was poorly worded, i.e. "Homegrown Islamic extremism inspired by foreign terrorist groups". The motive is Jihad, plain and simple. There is no other way around it. When a Muslim engages in these kind of acts it is to advance the cause of Islam. Is all violence perpetrated by Muslims terrorism? No. But this incident is an example of Islamic terrorism, and one that accurately reflects what virtually all Hadith scholars call on Muslims to do. The four inseparable elements of Islam I mentioned above all fit together to accurately explain the motive for this attack. By not using them to accurately reflect the motive for the attack it does a disservice to readers, and is one of the reasons why Wikipedia has a poor reputation as a reliable source when it comes to articles that aren't about the hard sciences. My intent is not to paint all Muslims one way or the other. But your insistence on pointing to the Quran as the source for what Muslims should or shouldn't do and comparing it to various Scripture from the Old/New Testament. It is the Hadith, collectively that lays out the day to day actions and example Muslims to which Muslims should adhere. grifterlake (talk) 23:58, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- This is not a forum for your anti-Muslim beliefs. Objective3000 (talk) 01:06, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
- You're right that this is not a forum for anti-Muslim beliefs (in your addressing of Grifterlake or of me), but the problem with you is that you don't see that you've also been using this as a forum (human nature is very amusing) for your PRO-MUSLIM positions, apologist rhetoric, (wheither you're "Jewish" or not, you're still being an apologist of sorts for Islam), and anti-Bible distortions or expressions. In other words, frankly speaking, gotta say that you're being hypocritical, regarding "forum". Because dish out, but can't take it, and double-standards, won't hold. Because I only stated a provable fact (for example) that "Jihad" in the Koran was also (if not mainly) for physical warfare, and not just "inner struggle". Again see Surah 4.95 and Hadith literature that prove the point. You were watering down the "Jihad" meaning and issue, and then using the failed argument of "oh well the Bible has violence in it too"...disregarding covenants, and later Christ's words to "put the sword away" and "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemies". Stuff that Mohammad never said (nor practiced). So yes "no forum" cuts both ways. You can't use this as a forum and then claim you're not, but just trying to improve the article, and then accuse others of just "forum"ing, and assume BAD FAITH, conveniently. Foruming is being done from all sides then, in reaction, not just the sides you disagree with. To put it all on just one side is an unfair biased and dishonest analysis then. Meaning we should all stop this, if that's the case. Thank you. Redzemp (talk) 02:36, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
- This is not a forum for your anti-Muslim beliefs. Objective3000 (talk) 01:06, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
- I haven't put any of my beliefs in on one side or the other, Objective3000. I have merely made an assertion, i.e. that the references to motive are poorly written and inaccurate. I then supported that statement with what I believe to be factual information, i.e. that Muslims believe that the Quran is the Word of Allah, as given to Muhammad and the Hadith are the instructions that tell Muslims how to interpret the Quran and live their lives, as shown by the example of Muhammad. You can take issue with the accuracy of my statements, but you have yet to do so and instead made a gratuitous claim that what I have written constitutes "anti-Muslim beliefs". You might try actually checking out the Hadith article before making such claims. grifterlake (talk) 04:03, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
- You again state that all 1.5 billion Muslims believe the same thing. Do all Christians believe in every word of the Bible? Even the previous Pope said the Bible is apocryphal. Your bias is clearly affecting your edits. Objective3000 (talk) 12:31, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
- I haven't put any of my beliefs in on one side or the other, Objective3000. I have merely made an assertion, i.e. that the references to motive are poorly written and inaccurate. I then supported that statement with what I believe to be factual information, i.e. that Muslims believe that the Quran is the Word of Allah, as given to Muhammad and the Hadith are the instructions that tell Muslims how to interpret the Quran and live their lives, as shown by the example of Muhammad. You can take issue with the accuracy of my statements, but you have yet to do so and instead made a gratuitous claim that what I have written constitutes "anti-Muslim beliefs". You might try actually checking out the Hadith article before making such claims. grifterlake (talk) 04:03, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
- Actually, I'm in the same camp as Redzemp here in that I don't recall using the word "all", or attaching a number of any value to the number of Muslims who "believe the same thing". In fact, I do recall saying that, "There are also Muslims who don't interpret the Hadith the same way, but are in conflict, as well in that if they don't interpret the Hadith in the same way as their violent brethren they are rejecting Muhammad as the perfect example of how to live one's life." That seems to me to be a pretty clear statement that all Muslims *do not* believe the same thing. You have a clear pattern here of misrepresenting what myself and others are saying; you avoid responding to the substance of what is said and instead are making gratuitous claims about bias in others. And it all seems to revolve around the word "Jihad", which you apparently do not understand. The thrust of my argument is that it is the Hadith, not the Quran that should be used to evaluate both the true meaning of the word "Jihad" and the actions of perpetrators of violence in the name of Islam. So a good place to start for you would be to answer the question, am I correct or incorrect in making that statement? I am either on target (pardon the pun) or not; there is no bias there. And if I am correct, then the motive given for the attack should reflect the true reason why the attack was carried out. grifterlake (talk) 16:12, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
- In no way did I misrepresent you. You stated:
what I believe to be factual information, i.e. that Muslims believe that the Quran is the Word of Allah, as given to Muhammad and the Hadith are the instructions that tell Muslims how to interpret the Quran and live their lives
. You didn’t say some Muslims. You said this is what Muslims believe. This is like saying Christians believe that you must accept Christ as your savior. Only about 40% of Christians believe this. Or that the Bible is the actual written word of god. A similar percentage of Christians don’t believe this. You are claiming that you know for a fact the reason the attack was carried out because it was carried out by Muslims and that means there can only one reason. You are using this bias to slant how you think the article should be written. As for the meaning of jihad, I’ll go with the Islamic Supreme Council of America over your definition. Objective3000 (talk) 17:27, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
- In no way did I misrepresent you. You stated:
- Well, I think your lack of understanding has now become crystal clear. Belief that the Quran is the Word of Allah as given to Muhammad *is* the key tenant of Islam, just as acceptance of Christ as Messiah and savior is the core tenant of Christianity. Those are kind of the defining elements of each religion. If someone doesn't believe that for their respective religion they are either a heretic, or an "in name only" part of that religion. They are certainly not a devout practitioner of that religion. But for someone who would take the position of the Islamic Supreme Council of America over thousands of years of Islamic, Hadith scholars that isn't surprising. It would be like taking the position of the Unity Church as the authority of what defines Christianity over the Catholic Church or other mainstream denomination. As a personal matter it is no big deal. But when that view is reflected in articles where Jihad is discussed it is a disservice to the readers of Wikipedia, as the articles that reflect such an ignorant position are not as accurate as they could be. grifterlake (talk) 00:27, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
- Claiming that you speak for billions of people in multiple religions as if they must all share your particular concepts and definitions of their religion is rank bigotry. Politeness is not working. You should be topic-banned from any article related to religion. This is an encyclopedia. Provide reliable sources. Not your concept of the individual beliefs of billions of people. Objective3000 (talk) 00:50, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
- Well, I think your lack of understanding has now become crystal clear. Belief that the Quran is the Word of Allah as given to Muhammad *is* the key tenant of Islam, just as acceptance of Christ as Messiah and savior is the core tenant of Christianity. Those are kind of the defining elements of each religion. If someone doesn't believe that for their respective religion they are either a heretic, or an "in name only" part of that religion. They are certainly not a devout practitioner of that religion. But for someone who would take the position of the Islamic Supreme Council of America over thousands of years of Islamic, Hadith scholars that isn't surprising. It would be like taking the position of the Unity Church as the authority of what defines Christianity over the Catholic Church or other mainstream denomination. As a personal matter it is no big deal. But when that view is reflected in articles where Jihad is discussed it is a disservice to the readers of Wikipedia, as the articles that reflect such an ignorant position are not as accurate as they could be. grifterlake (talk) 00:27, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
- Good grief, Objective3000! Specifically for your benefit I referenced an actual Wikipedia article: "the overwhelming majority of classical theologians, jurists", and specialists in the hadith "understood the obligation of jihad in a military sense.". You trotted out the Islamic Supreme Council of America--whose article here, by the way doesn't even mention the word "Jihad" and whose mission is to "present Islam as a religion of moderation, tolerance, peace and justice", and not to function as an Islamic scholarly organization. You are proving my point; if you are right, then my assertion that Wikipedia has a poor reputation for accuracy for articles not related to the hard sciences. If I am right, then the word "Jihad" has a primarily military connotation. But I'm in a good mood, so I'll bite at your bait. If belief that the Quran is the Word of Allah, as given to Muhammad and the belief that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and savior for all are not the fundamental tenets of Islam and Christianity, respectively, then what are? grifterlake (talk) 02:19, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Marquez Criminal Case Documents (very rich!)
As the USA v. Marquez criminal case gets underway the court documents are very rich sources of information.
Notes for active researchers
Public access for US Court documents are $.10 per page. However if you use less than $15 worth in a quarter that usage is free. (Note - if you go over $15 in usage in a quarter you indeed will be billed for it all.)
There is no copyright on US Court Documents so, once retrieved, they may be freely shared and archived.
RECAP
Strongly suggest anyone doing doing US Court Research (i.e. willing to register for a retrieval account, willing to provide a credit card, etc.) install the RECAP browser extension (Chrome or FireFox) first. [RECAP]
This will quickly and painlessly give you:
- free access to any document any other PACER/RECAP user has already pulled.
- if you pull a document in your account (perhaps free as long as you are under $15/quarter) it will automatically archive that document and make it available to others for free. It goes to Internet Archive which is totally free.
RECAP is 100% legal, totally above board, and academic/research oriented. see Wikipedia's coverage of RECAP
AFTER you install RECAP, then sign up for a public access account at the US Court site [PACER] (Reminder $.10 page, but free if under $15 usage PER QUARTER)
Search by Case No. 5:15-mj-00498 then navigate to the Docket section to look for filed documents.
Free access, no account needed
This is NOT guaranteed to have all the USA v. Marquez criminal case documents, (only by registering at PACER above, can you be sure you have everything, up to the minute. This only has documents preserved to a free archive)
It does have the Complaint which is 37 pages of detailed FBI sworn information, directly relevant to Marquez and the entire event. [Complaint at archive.org] Document #1 contains the FBI affidavit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.242.4.225 (talk) 22:08, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
- These are primary sources, so we shall wait until secondary sources review and report on these documents. - Cwobeel (talk) 22:28, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
- Actually, all that material is already been reported in 2dary sources, and included in the article. - Cwobeel (talk) 22:30, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
- How much does every currently accessable page cost, bundled? $14.99? InedibleHulk (talk) 00:35, December 21, 2015 (UTC)
- There's a logistical problem here, which is that only non-experts have the unused free download quota ... but we have our natural peasant wariness to deal with. What's to stop someone from hacking into your account and downloading a hundred thousand pages? Or for that matter, how easy is it to screw up and end up on the hook for a thousand page document yourself? And at the opposite end of things ... why doesn't some enterprising Chinese saboteur just use some fake CC#s and download their entire database and put it on the web for free before the quarterly bill gets processed, making our help unnecessary? Need some more confidence building here if you want to get us into this. Wnt (talk) 18:43, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
- Aaron Swartz famously attempted this. Not within Wikipedia's bailiwick, to say the least. Neutralitytalk 04:45, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
- The affidavit accompanying the criminal complaint (by Joel T. Anderson, FBI Special Agent) has already been republished by the LA Times, among others. See http://documents.latimes.com/criminal-complaint-enrique-marquez/ Neutralitytalk 04:45, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Comment 1 above
Not sure if an affidavit filled out by an FBI officer, which is based on other primary documents (such as lab reports, chemical analysis, multiple written accounts by field officers, etc.) wouldn't be properly classified as a secondary document. Its obviously a compilation made up from other primary sources.
Note that the FBI affidavit, referred to above, speaks under full penalty of perjury on behalf of the entire FBI, and not just that one author's personal opinion. Such statements are carefully reviewed internally before being sent out the door. Likewise, lies and half truths to the U.S. Court system, by another branch of U.S. government would certainly run counter to all traditional notions of justice. Not asserting it never happens, but the reliability factor here is way above a highly regarded TV anchor or newspaper writer.
Even if the affidavit were deemed primary by consensus at Wikipedia, it would still be usable. Here is the policy (which is subsidiary to the better understood "No original research" policy) see wp:PRIMARY. Policy: Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia; but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge.
There is also a Wikipedia guideline (has less authority than a policy) wp:USINGPRIMARY which strives (and I would add largely fails) to delineate between primary and secondary sources, as uniquely seen by WikiPedia. (It notes: 'Wikipedia is not the real world...Wikipedia, like many institutions, has its own lexicon. Wikipedia does not use these terms exactly like academics use them. )
The guideline goes on to say: Primary sources can be reliable, and they can be used. Sometimes, a primary source is even the best possible source, such as when you are supporting a direct quotation. In such cases, the original document is the best source because the original document will be free of any errors or misquotations introduced by subsequent sources. However, there are limitations in what primary sources can be used for. ...You are allowed to use primary sources carefully. ...Material based on primary sources can be valuable and appropriate additions to articles...Primary sources may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements that any educated person—with access to the source but without specialist knowledge—will be able to verify are directly supported by the source. This person does not have to be able to determine that the material in the article or in the primary source is True. The goal is only that the person could compare the primary source with the material in the Wikipedia article, and agree that the primary source actually, directly says just what we're saying it does.
Conclusion: Sworn affidavits from the FBI filed at PACER have an extremely high degree of reliability, and are entirely permissible to draw from directly. There is no need for corroboration / publication by mainstream media to quote from these documents directly.
Comment 2 above
Would not agree that all detail in the FBI affidavit is reported faithfully in the current Wikipedia article. Of course how to carve down a 37 page affidavit to what's relevant to include in a Wikipedia article is a judgement call.
Comment 3 above
Every page (currently filed, there will be many more fillings as the case progresses) would cost under $5.00. However, for the moment (last time I checked), all pages currently filed are accessible free (see above, Internet Archive link).
Comment 4 above
Pretty sure RECAP has no knowledge of your login credentials at PACER. The software only becomes active as you search. Its open source, maintained by Princeton University. per Wikipedia: In 2009, the Los Angeles Times stated that RECAP cuts into PACER revenue about $10 million. At .10 per page that would mean about 700 million pages have been downloaded using RECAP since 2009 without any reports of credit card fraud. It's open source, so the best place to look for possible security issues is directly at at source code: [freelawproject]
Comment 5 above
Not recommending, or not recommending, using RECAP on, behalf of Wikipedia. Just providing references to it (as Wikipedia itself does). Had the US Court system desired and had been able to shut it down, that would have occurred long ago since its been active for more than six years, and it puts a 10 million dollar per year dent in the PACER revenues. I doubt Princeton University would risk a lawsuit on behalf of PACER were there any legal exposure.
Comment 6 above
See #1 above. The US Court documents as filed on PACER should be directly quotable per above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.242.4.225 (talk) 05:58, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
- I'm all for linking such material as a resource, but on the other hand we should be wary of treating it as a true news report. It does not have an independent editorial process - for example, you will never see an FBI affidavit that is an expose of shoddy work done at their lab. And the material is not presented as impartial truth, but as an adversarial argument. I call specific attention to point 4: "This affidavit is intended to show merely that there is sufficient probable cause for the requested complaint and arrest warrant and does not purport to set forth all of my knowledge of or investigation into this matter. Unless specifically indicated otherwise, all conversations and statements described in this affidavit are related in substance and in part only, and all dates and times referenced herein are approximate." It's easy to just ignore such disclaimers, but it's saying you can't rely on it for solid unbiased facts, and we should remember that. Wnt (talk) 12:42, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
- A link may be OK in the External links section, but what would not be OK is to use these primary sources as sources for direct commentary in the article's body. - Cwobeel (talk) 15:32, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think that's right. We should have a secondary source for commentary, but there's no reason not to cite the primary source as a normal reference, e.g. "According to the affidavit,[1] ..." There are people who will make exactly the opposite distinction between external links and references. I think of external links as a temporary dumping ground for good references that haven't been well integrated into the text; over time, they ought to get folded into the normal text, I'd say. Wnt (talk) 22:08, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
2 Questions
82.169.162.44 (talk) 20:41, 22 December 2015 (UTC) From a positive point of view I have some questions about this wikipedia page.
1) How can we have the picture from the passport on the wikipedia page, where does it come from? 2) How can we have the picture of the driver's license on the wikipedia page, where does it come from? 3) Can we have a section on expert video and photo analysis of the event? This is a sound research method to question the FBI event narrative. 4) Can we have a section on eyewitnesses? And if yes can we involve following sources: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHtYBUqnLuY http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/12/multiple-video-evidence-san-bernardino-false-flag-attack-01-plan-multiple-false-flags-justify-martial-law-arrest-truthers.html 5) Can we have a section about the psychology of how we perceive such an event? 6) Can we have a section about how Donald Trump uses this event in his policitical rhetoric?
Thanks for the answers and for making this a better encyclopedia article. Currently I would rate it a 5/10
82.169.162.44 (talk) 20:41, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
- You can find details on the licensing for the passport and driver's license, on the file page (just click on the image and then click "Details"). - Cwobeel (talk) 00:09, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
- YouTube and personal blogs and not considered Reliable sources for Wikipedia articles. - Cwobeel (talk) 00:10, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
- The most reliable thing about eyewitness accounts and initial news coverage of a chaotic event is that they are generally wrong in many important ways. And that's what the YouTube video you link to entirely bases its points on. As Cwobeel says, please take a look at WP:RS for more info about what can be considered a reliable source. AdventurousSquirrel (talk) 06:53, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
Marquez information in need of a secondary reference
The following information was not found in the reference. I moved it here pending finding a wp:rs to support its inclusion.--Nowa (talk) 22:05, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
- Marquez worked as a Wal-Mart security guard, and part-time at a bar where he checked IDs and helped get taxis for customers.ref name=SerranoChargedWith
This material seems excessive. It's enough to say it was a sham marriage. I left the reference in the article.--Nowa (talk) 22:28, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
- Neither friends interviewed by ABC News nor social media accounts refer to the marriage. Public records indicate that Chernykh shared an address with Oscar Romero, that the couple has a baby daughter and posed together in photos. Mention of Romero disappeared from Chernykh's social media page two months before her marriage, but on her Russian-language media accounts, Chernykh continued calling herself Maria Romero, even after her legal marriage to Marquez. Romero referred to her as his wife on social media. ABC News reported that after it contacted Chernykh, a social media page was taken down.
Terrorism or A workplace shooting.
I don't disagree with mentioning terrorism as one possibility that is being investigated, but I don't see proof it is not an ordinary workplace shooting. I am wondering if the article is assuming it is terrorism when it is not clear. "seriously injured in a terrorist attack " should read "seriously injured in a workplace shooting ". If they were not Muslims their attack would not be considered terrorism, just a workplace shooting. I am not arguing it is impossible but it is far from clear they shot up their co-works for reasons distinct from the other workplace shootings in America.Geo8rge (talk) 19:27, 4 January 2016 (UTC)