pov |
NotHowItWorks (talk | contribs) |
||
Line 169: | Line 169: | ||
:::::::It's not a hypothesis, it was a well covered aspect of his manifesto; [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10857021/Elliot-Rodger-may-have-used-machetes-and-hammer-to-murder-house-mates-in-killing-chamber.html example source]. '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]])</sup> 20:10, 21 June 2014 (UTC) |
:::::::It's not a hypothesis, it was a well covered aspect of his manifesto; [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10857021/Elliot-Rodger-may-have-used-machetes-and-hammer-to-murder-house-mates-in-killing-chamber.html example source]. '''[[User:Sceptre|Sceptre]]''' <sup>([[User talk:Sceptre|talk]])</sup> 20:10, 21 June 2014 (UTC) |
||
::::::::This has also been discussed as a possible race-based issue that intersected with gender. see [http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/racism-played-role-elliot-rodger-murder-spree-experts-article-1.1806390] - his racist ravings were mostly directed at men of color, not people of color more generally. so it had an intersection of gender + race involved. [http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2014/05/24/elliot-rodger-isla-vista-shooting-suspect-posted-racist-messages-on-misogynistic-website/] also covers how he posted specific messages of hate about black and asian men (he considered himself to be "white").--[[User:Obiwankenobi|Obi-Wan Kenobi]] ([[User talk:Obiwankenobi|talk]]) 02:19, 22 June 2014 (UTC) |
::::::::This has also been discussed as a possible race-based issue that intersected with gender. see [http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/racism-played-role-elliot-rodger-murder-spree-experts-article-1.1806390] - his racist ravings were mostly directed at men of color, not people of color more generally. so it had an intersection of gender + race involved. [http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2014/05/24/elliot-rodger-isla-vista-shooting-suspect-posted-racist-messages-on-misogynistic-website/] also covers how he posted specific messages of hate about black and asian men (he considered himself to be "white").--[[User:Obiwankenobi|Obi-Wan Kenobi]] ([[User talk:Obiwankenobi|talk]]) 02:19, 22 June 2014 (UTC) |
||
*'''Support''' .. However Obi-Wan please don't mention anything about race being involved, it will take away from the feminists wanting this incident to be solely about women and the female gender. Mattnad they cannot co-exist with feminists, that's not how it works. Feminists thrive on victimhood, that is how they get all of their power. If males can also be victims (in various ways throughout society), then that means feminist women lose some of their power. It also means that men will continue to suffer and be oppressed in many ways, but feminists don't care about male suffering, only about female suffering. [[User:NotHowItWorks|NotHowItWorks]] ([[User talk:NotHowItWorks|talk]]) 03:56, 22 June 2014 (UTC) |
|||
== Consolidation of "Twisted" sources and citations == |
== Consolidation of "Twisted" sources and citations == |
Revision as of 03:56, 22 June 2014
![]() | This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Plan for Knives and Hammer
I think this quote should be added to his plan, because he was not planning on using a gun. ""After that, I will start luring people into my apartment, knock them out with a hammer, and slit their throats." [1] James Michael DuPont (talk) 01:57, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
- Disagree. Only adds lurid, tabloid, insignificant detail. He planned to do a lot of things that he didn't do, including firing 400 more rounds than he did. But thanks for talking about it first. Mandruss (talk) 02:15, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
- Add: And I'm not sure what you mean by "he was not planning on using a gun". In that case, (1) why did he spend $2900 on guns, and (2) was he planning to drive around killing people with machetes, a knife, and a hammer? Mandruss (talk) 02:29, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
- I was referring only to the quote of his plan, so let me retract that, good point. On signifcance, I think it is significant because he did kill people with a knife in the apartment as planned. James Michael DuPont (talk) 15:05, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
- Ok, but he didn't "lure people into his apartment". Nor did he knock anyone out with a hammer or slit anyone's throat, as far as we know. I don't see what makes that quote any more noteworthy than any of the many other wild threats he made. That said, we don't have a consensus here; if you feel strongly about it, be WP:BOLD, give it a shot and see if it flies. Just be sure to source it, obviously.Mandruss (talk) 16:44, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
- oh, I was under the impression he did do that. Maybe some day I will find time to look into this. Thanks, James Michael DuPont (talk) 10:51, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
- Ok, but he didn't "lure people into his apartment". Nor did he knock anyone out with a hammer or slit anyone's throat, as far as we know. I don't see what makes that quote any more noteworthy than any of the many other wild threats he made. That said, we don't have a consensus here; if you feel strongly about it, be WP:BOLD, give it a shot and see if it flies. Just be sure to source it, obviously.Mandruss (talk) 16:44, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
- I was referring only to the quote of his plan, so let me retract that, good point. On signifcance, I think it is significant because he did kill people with a knife in the apartment as planned. James Michael DuPont (talk) 15:05, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
Remove "Misogyny" section
The section on misogyny should be removed. There is sufficient evidence to indicate the subject's pathology was to be hostile to men and women. This defines him as being a misanthrope rather than a misogynist or misandrist. The focus on the feminist viewpoint is intellectually dishonest.
Pencilsketcher (talk) 23:29, 4 June 2014 (UTC) PS
I would rename the title to something like Alleged Rodger Misogyny and Misanthrope as reflective of wider societal issues. The killings did cause a wider debate and the it was not Misogyny POV is mentioned.Edkollin (talk) 23:56, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
- A very large number of reliable sources have described Rodger as a misogynist and/or have called his manifesto and motive for killing misogynistic. Whether you, I, or anyone else editing here is convinced Elliot Rodger was really a misanthrope is actually irrelevant. Enough reliable sources have related the killing spree to misogyny that WP:DUE justifies a section on this and removing this section would violate due weight.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 01:03, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
He posted an anti-women manifesto, was part of an anti-women online hate group, and his intention was to kill everyone in a sorority house. He was clearly misogynist. Keep the section, and keep the agenda out of it. Just because he ended up killing more men doesn't change his intention, and the police have not released the genders of the 13 other people he wounded aside from a select few (two additional shooting victims were female, and several others were struck with his car). In any case, it doesn't matter. His intent and the subject matter of his rants are the reason this is seen as a misogynist attack. 205.250.211.218 (talk) 05:34, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
- Agree. We keep the section. The attacks generated the responses. Also, we should keep all views on the response including RS that were had some critiques about it to maintain NPOV.Mattnad (talk) 15:10, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
Misogyny part is full of feminist's bias, and should be removed or cleaned really really well. Feminism is comparable to the national socialism and can't be held as neutral point of view. Feminism is always biased. --91.153.51.39 (talk) 02:59, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
Merge discussion for YesAllWomen
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
- The result of the AfD discussion was to keep the YesAllWomen article and the merge discussion is closed at the talk page at YesAllWomen with the consensus being opposed to a merge.
A Canadian Toker 18:05, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
- It's early for #YesAllWomen, but I suspect it will whither and be a one time hashtag that's only relevant from the context of this atrocity. That written, there's no hurry yet to merge. I think we can see how it plays out for the next month.Mattnad (talk) 18:27, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
Oppose the merge of YesAllWomen being incorporated into this article. If anything, the content should be merged into that article, or in the alternative - the content in the section in this article should be pruned. Two of the three paragraphs in that section are nothing but opinion's of not so notable commentators anyway.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 18:17, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
Oppose and agree with everything Isaidnoway said. I spoke (since archived) in favor of moving the content to the other article as soon as the controversy became about more than Elliot Rodger. Mandruss (talk) 18:53, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
Comment - The YesAllWomen article fails on notability (at least right now) as it's only known as a response to this event and has already fallen out of the news cycles. See WP:PERSISTENCE. If anything, the separate article should be eliminated and relevant content merged, into this article.Mattnad (talk) 20:47, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
- Defer to the broader discussion at AfD. --j⚛e deckertalk 19:51, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, I posted this here only to direct people to the broader discussion on the YesAllWomen Talk page here A Canadian Toker 16:01, 8 June 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by ACanadianToker (talk • contribs)
Manuscript is incorrect term
Manuscript is not the correct term here at all. Please stop reverting back to it. 'a book, document, or piece of music written by hand rather than typed or printed.' Rodger wrote his thoughts in Microsoft word and therefore it is typed and not a manuscript by definition. 24.239.124.140 (talk) 01:16, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
- Are you using British English or American English? This article is in American English. Note that each of the following is the first definition listed. How many do you need?
- Merriam-Webster.com:
1 a written or typewritten composition or document as distinguished from a printed copy; also : a document submitted for publication - dictionary.reference.com:
1 the original text of an author's work, handwritten or now usually typed, that is submitted to a publisher. - wiktionary.com:
1 A book, composition or any other document, written by hand (or manually typewritten), not mechanically reproduced. Mandruss (talk) 01:28, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
- Merriam-Webster.com:
The definition provided by the IP editor seems to have come from this google search [2]. Our article here on Manuscript appears to be similar in it's definition. I have no preference either way. Isaidnoway (talk) 03:05, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
- In the Manuscript article, please see the second paragraph of the section "Modern variations". While a citation is needed, the statement has been allowed to remain for over four years, by who knows how many scholarly reviewers. Mandruss (talk) 04:25, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
- This is just a matter of preference and consensus. When I think of the word manuscript, the first thing that pops into my mind is in relation to publishing companies and the thousands of manuscripts they receive each year. I seriously doubt that any publisher would reject a manuscript solely on the basis that it was typed and not hand-written. Ernest Hemingway used a typewriter for his manuscripts, in the early 1920’s he used a portable folding Corona Number 3. And in today's world of publishing, almost all authors now use a pc with word-processing software, and some publishers ask that the manuscript be submitted on disk. Additionally, here is a list of authors and writers who had notable relationships with typewriters from WP Typewriter. So yeah, it would appear the IP editor is wrong, it doesn't make any difference whether a manuscript is typed or hand-written or created via word-processing software in order for it to be defined as a manuscript. Updated - I just checked my version of Microsoft Word and it has a "manuscript template". Just a wild guess here, but it stands to reason that other word-processing software offer that template as well.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 05:41, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
- Indeed, additionally, manifesto is the more dominant term in reliable sources, so we should defer to that. Tutelary (talk) 15:55, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
- This is just a matter of preference and consensus. When I think of the word manuscript, the first thing that pops into my mind is in relation to publishing companies and the thousands of manuscripts they receive each year. I seriously doubt that any publisher would reject a manuscript solely on the basis that it was typed and not hand-written. Ernest Hemingway used a typewriter for his manuscripts, in the early 1920’s he used a portable folding Corona Number 3. And in today's world of publishing, almost all authors now use a pc with word-processing software, and some publishers ask that the manuscript be submitted on disk. Additionally, here is a list of authors and writers who had notable relationships with typewriters from WP Typewriter. So yeah, it would appear the IP editor is wrong, it doesn't make any difference whether a manuscript is typed or hand-written or created via word-processing software in order for it to be defined as a manuscript. Updated - I just checked my version of Microsoft Word and it has a "manuscript template". Just a wild guess here, but it stands to reason that other word-processing software offer that template as well.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 05:41, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
Death of Rodger
Here are the 5 accounts I've found.
- From the UCSB Daily Nexus at 10:27pm the night of the murders, May 23[1]:
According to fourth-year communication major and eyewitness Tyler Jordan, the suspect was shooting out of his car, but tried to escape and was taken down by nearby Isla Vista Foot Patrol officers. “The suspect looked like he jumped out of the car and was gunned down by IVFP,” Jordan said in an email.
- Same article, second witness[1]:
Fourth-year political science major Niklas Svennefiord, who was at his house on Del Playa at the time of the incident, corroborated Jordan’s story and said that the suspect, a man in a white shirt, crashed into a nearby black jeep. “I heard a couple gunfire shots — I thought they were fireworks — so I didn’t think about it, but I was pretty startled and then I heard a car hit into another car so I look up into my little window that’s in my shower and I see a guy try to flee and the cops shoot him,” Svennefiord said.
- Expanded version from the second witness, 5:16 a.m. May 24, early the morning after the murders[2]:
One local resident and UCSB student, Niklas Svennefiord, said he saw the suspect flee from police, from his house at 6585 Del Playa Drive. The suspect, a man in a white shirt, crashed into a nearby black Jeep, he said.
“I heard a couple gunfire shots. I thought they were fireworks, so I didn’t think about it, but I was pretty startled and then I heard a car hit into another car. So I look up into my little window that’s in my shower, and I see a guy try to flee and the cops shoot him,” Svennefiord said.
Svennefiord said the suspect then continued to flee from police and also said that he believes one of his best friends was killed.
“I see a guy try to flee out of the car and the cop shoots him and then runs up to the car, seriously, and runs up to the car, looks into the car and the guy tries rolling around, and the cop kind of kicked him to make sure he was down,” Svennefiord said.
While saying the situation was “a little obscure,” Svennefiord said it appeared as if the whole incident ended in front of his house on the 6500 block of Del Playa.
- Different version from the second witness, 2:18 a.m. May 25[3]:
Leaving the scene of the crash that night, fourth-year political science major Niklas Svennefiord said he saw the suspect flee from police, as he watched from inside his home on the 6500 block of Del Playa. The suspect, a man in a white shirt, crashed into a nearby black Jeep, he said.
“I heard a couple gunfire shots. I thought they were fireworks, so I didn’t think about it, but I was pretty startled and then I heard a car hit another car. So I look up into my little window that’s in my shower, and I see a guy try to flee and the cops shoot him,” Svennefiord said.
Svennefiord, who also said that night that he believes one of his best friends was killed, said the suspect then continued to flee from police.
“I see a guy try to flee out of the car and the cop shoots him and then runs up to the car, seriously, and runs up to the car, looks into the car and the guy tries rolling around, and the cop kind of kicked him to make sure he was down,” Svennefiord said.
- From Sheriff Bill Brown at his May 24 Press Conference[4]:
The deputies approached the crashed vehicle and determined that the suspect within that vehicle was dead from an apparent gunshot wound to the head. A handgun was recovered from within that vehicle.
- From the Santa Barbara Sheriff's Office May 24 Press Release[5]:
The suspect’s vehicle then collided with several parked cars and came to a stop. Responding deputies immediately removed Rodger from the car and handcuffed him. They discovered Rodger was dead with an apparent gunshot wound to the head.
It is fairly unclear whether Rodger exited the car first, or at all, or was found dead in the car. Perhaps that is just the nature of eyewitness testimony in the heat of the moment. I think the national media locked into statement 5 above, the one made a the press conference by Sheriff Brown.
Not that it matters much. I suppose the final report will clarify what happened.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Snugspout (talk • contribs) 02:12, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
Violence against men category
It qualifies as it was a gendered attack against men for their gender. The edit summaries given by Sceptre are not sufficient imho. Indeed, the edit summary Provide sources that his hatred of men was not out of hatred of women, and we'll talk implies that that it was a gendered attack, so I'm not exactly sure where that fits on the opposing side. However, http://www.politicususa.com/2014/05/27/no-fact-rodgers-killed-men-women-doesnt-change-fact-misogynist.html describes Rodger as hating men as well, and since it was provoked by this, it makes it a gendered attack. Though I do note that it was primarily against women, the men did and were hated by him, evident by his manifesto and videos. Tutelary (talk) 00:38, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- Rodgers didn't hate men for being men, he hated men out of their relationship towards women. There is a strong effort on Wikipedia to not paint this as what it was: misogynist violence. And yes, misogynist violence can hurt men too. These two comment pieces – [3][4] – explain it more than I have the effort or the willingness to. Sceptre (talk) 01:10, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- The articles that you're citing make it quite clear that it was a gendered attack against men as well. Therefore I'm a bit confused on why you're so opposed to the category that qualifies as it. I'm not proposing that we remove the 'violence against women' category, but add the 'violence against men' category. The category text Articles on the topic of gender-based violence against men or boys. makes it quite clear that they were killed mainly out of spite for taking women, but that is still considered a gender based attack. He hated men, though not overshadowing your point of misogyny, but he did hate men and that would make this a gendered attack against them, thereby fitting the category. Tutelary (talk) 01:17, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, and Hitler hated Jews because he thought they were less than human, and the KKK hates the blacks because X, and the Westboro Baptist Church hates the gays because they violate god's law. Who cares WHY these lunatics hate someone? Hatred is not some sort of logical chain that you can perform logical operations o - e.g. X hated Y because of Z, therefore, X didn't really hate Y?? It doesn't make any sense. Many analyses have said that his hatred of women actually derives from his own failings to achieve the masculine ideal. And maybe his failings to achieve the masculine ideal stem from our society. and maybe our society stems from 1000 years of patriarchy. and maybe 1000 years of patriarchy derives from... We don't need to do root causal analysis just to place a category - his clear and often-reported hatred of men and, most importantly, the fact that men were targeted as victims of his violence is the important thing. Even if we accept that men were victims BECAUSE of misogyny, it is still gendered violence against men, and reliable sources POINTED OUT that misogyny can harm men, thus the category is clearly relevant.
- The articles that you're citing make it quite clear that it was a gendered attack against men as well. Therefore I'm a bit confused on why you're so opposed to the category that qualifies as it. I'm not proposing that we remove the 'violence against women' category, but add the 'violence against men' category. The category text Articles on the topic of gender-based violence against men or boys. makes it quite clear that they were killed mainly out of spite for taking women, but that is still considered a gender based attack. He hated men, though not overshadowing your point of misogyny, but he did hate men and that would make this a gendered attack against them, thereby fitting the category. Tutelary (talk) 01:17, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- The key question is, was any of his violence motivated by hatred for men? Let's look at sources:
- "But his hatred of femininity is tangled with hatred of other men—and himself"
- "As long as masculinity is based in hatred of and fear of femininity, it will be expressed in violence—against men, against gay people, and against the marginalized. And most of all, it will continue to motivate violence against women.”
- "Rodger’s male victims included men he envied as well as roommates he perceived as getting in his way."
- "It is not uncommon for men who resent women to take out their aggressions on other men, but unlike public violence against women, male-on-male attacks slip more easily underneath our cultural radar."
- "Elliot Rodger targeted women out of entitlement, their male partners out of jealousy, and unrelated male bystanders out of expedience. This is not ammunition for an argument that he was a misandrist at heart—it’s evidence of the horrific extent of misogyny’s cultural reach."
- "Sure, we can admit that we hated men, but only if we accept that his hatred for men stemmed from his feeling of entitlement towards women."
- "The reason why he hated men was because they received the thing he thought he deserved," she said. "He did not think he was entitled to men's bodies. He did not think he was entitled to sexual submission from men. What he was resentful about was that some men got those privileges and he did not. So that was part and parcel of his sexism and part and parcel of his misogyny."
Thus, sources seem to pretty much agree that he hated men, and that he targeted, directly, men that he hated, and several men died or were shot. Now, the bulk of sources claim that the root cause of his hatred of men is actually misogyny. Fine, we don't need to argue that here - the reliable sources are all competing to decide who gets to be the root cause. But you're misunderstanding the category. The violence against women category is not "Violence, based in the final root cause analysis, on misogyny", and the violence against men category is not "Violence, based on final root cause analysis, on misandry". A single level of gendered hatred suffices, and both his manifesto AND reliable sources note his hatred of men - we don't need to to final root cause analysis. If a guy goes to shoot up a school full of girls and shoots the male guard, fine, that's not "violence against men" - but that's NOT what happened here. When the Taliban slaughter girls at a school, we don't say "Well, their hatred of women stems from radical interpretations of Islam, therefore, it's not really violence against women" - NO. From whence that hatred of men derives is not that relevant, it doesn't DIMINISH his hatred of men, and this hatred was expressed very clearly in his manifesto and, begrudgingly in some cases, accepted by reliable sources. The Violence against men category is about gendered violence, men targeted because they were men. The sources above demonstrate that he hated men and that he targeted men that he hated - this was not random. This also does not diminish the misogyny, nor the violence against women. Categories are NOT either/or - we can have both. When someone sets off a bomb in Iraq at a market, and men women and children are killed, we don't call that gendered violence, since specific genders aren't targeted. Here, we do have gendered violence, on BOTH sides (the Srebrenica massacre is a similar example of gendered violence on both sides - men were slaughtered, and women were raped) - thus this was also a case of both violence against men AND violence against women, in both cases based on gender).--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:33, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- Rodgers clearly expressed hatred toward men and killed them. However, he indicated he hated a subset of men, sexually active men. According to the sources, his hatred of men was fueled by his rage that other men had sexual access to women, while he did not, so they deserved to be punished. He hated women because they were women and hated men because of their access to women. I'm not sure the "Violence against men category" fits here because he did not seem to target men for being men. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 01:53, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- Note: Previously discussed at Talk:2014_Isla_Vista_killings/Archive_1#Violence_against_men_category. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:55, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter if he hated only a subset of men - see my examples below for "subsets of men" that were nonetheless targeted for violence. Sexually-active men with access to women - and hating them and wanting to kill them - is a classic example of a gendered target. It's not "I wanna kill everyone" - it's "I want to kill people of this gender that did this, and people of that gender who did that"--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:57, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- Let's look further at Srebrenica - this is a classic example, oft-spoken of, of violence against men - something like 8000 men were massacred. Now, was this done BECAUSE the Serbs just hated men? Probably not. Did they hate everyone, like Rodgers seemed to? Probably not either - I assume the Serb killers went home to their wives and families afterwards and had beers with their friends - like Nazi death camp guards, they were probably rather ordinary people. The Serbs hated muslims, more specifically Bosniaks, and they enacted that hatred by gender-separating the men and boys and slaughtering them, and then later, raping the women. In both cases these are incidences of gender-based violence since the violence was discriminate, but stemming perhaps from a deeper hatred of a whole people. Did the Nazis hate Greek men when they massacred all the men in a village at Massacre_of_Kalavryta? It's hard to say, they were an occupying army, and wanted to punish the village. So maybe they didn't hate all greeks, maybe they just hated the greeks in that village - the massacre of men was unlikely to be caused by hatred of men, but it's nonetheless a prime example of VIOLENCE against men. Sceptre is confusing the root cause final cause analysis of that motivation - with the proximate hatred that he expressed towards men and the direct violence he enacted against them as a result. Now, you may claim "No, it was gender-based violence against the women, but it wasn't gender-based violence against the men, they were just in his way" - but that's not what the sources above state, they state that he targeted men he was jealous of, he targeted men that he hated! The violence against women category is full of instances of violence against women that aren't driven by misogyny - sometimes mental illness, sometimes "extreme interpretations of the Islamic dress code" 2002_Mecca_girls'_school_fire, there are always analysis of proximate and deeper causes, but that doesn't matter for categorization, what matters is whether violence was enacted against people based on their gender, and we have strong evidence that both men and women were targeted accordingly.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:57, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- We can also do a very simplified hypothetical. Suppose a killer posts a video saying "I hate all of you women, I can't stand you. To punish you, I'm going to kill all of your boyfriends and husbands" - and then goes on to massacre their boyfriends and husbands. Articles will say "Well, this was clearly motivated by hatred of women" - ok, fine, but it was still "violence against men"! A more complex version is what actually happened here - he didn't just hate women, he also hated men - perhaps he only hated a certain type of men - e.g. ones who had sex with women - but that's still a pretty broad list, and that list remains gendered, and his violence was accordingly gendered. We should also look for sources to see if this was also racially motivated - I think all of his roommates killed were Asians, and he seemed to despise Asians.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:13, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- As far as we know, none of the men he killed was with a woman at the time. As far as we know, he didn't know whether any of them were sexually active. All of them could have been virgins just like him, for all he knew. Whatever the ideas beneath his rage, they didn't seem to affect which men he chose to kill. So it doesn't make sense to form ANY kind of link between those ideas and those killings. Mandruss (talk) 02:28, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- see the quote above: "Rodger’s male victims included men he envied as well as roommates he perceived as getting in his way." - not all victims were killed, fwiw.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 03:05, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- That's very much the point. He didn't know whether they were virgins or bachelors, he didn't know that those men weren't the ones who had countered him. He killed them because of his hatred for their gender, and that's the point of the category. Look above with Obi's links to the reliable sources, stating his hatred for men. I thought this was a plain cut dispute giving the reliable sources, but it appears to not be. Tutelary (talk) 02:38, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- As far as we know, none of the women Rodger killed rejected Rodger or even knew him. I think Rodger's stated motive and why victims were targeted matters for the category. The victims who were strangers to Rodger were white, does that mean this belongs in a category "violence against whites"? I'd say no because according to his stated motive he did not target whites for being white. Similarly, he did not target men for being men but he was very clear on targeting women for being women. I saw no sources that indicated Rodger hated men for being men but rather for their (imagined) relation to women. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 02:49, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- The root cause of the root cause of the root cause doesn't matter Bobo. He hated men, and RS sources point out that he targeted men, as well as women. Again, I point you to how these categories are being used for every other article - do the Taliban hate women for being women, or because that's how their interpretation of the Koran instructs them, or because that's what they were taught in school? It doesn't matter for the category to apply - if someone targets women for violence, the category fits. He targeted men for violence, that much is clear.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 03:00, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- According to that category it is supposed to reflect "Articles on the topic of gender-based violence against men or boys.". I don't think this case fits. I don't think his violence against men was gender based. I actually don't care that much either way, but personally, if I were to go to that category to find articles on "gender based violence against men", I wouldn't be looking for stories like this. This isn't gender based violence against men imo. I think adding this to the category does a disservice to the category and those who might wish to use that category to find a specific type of article. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 03:09, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- So his attack on women was gender based, but his attack on men was not? Sources disagree with you Bobo. His manifesto goes into extreme detail on how much he hates men. From CNN: "He also said he despised men who had luck with women and said he would eliminate them, too. "I will kill them all and make them suffer, just as they have made me suffer," he added. "It is only fair."" [9]. How can you imagine that this isn't gender-based violence on both sides? This wasn't "I'm going to kill the sorority girls, and any security guards who happen to be in the way" - this was "I'm going to kill women because X, and I'm going to kill men because Y". Both genders were targeted, explicitly. When someone says "I'm going to kill all men", we obviously consider that gender-based violence. If someone says "I'm going to kill all men over the age of 15", that is still gender-based violence. If someone says "I'm going to kill all men who are more sexually successful than me" again, that is STILL gender.. based... violence.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 03:24, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- According to that category it is supposed to reflect "Articles on the topic of gender-based violence against men or boys.". I don't think this case fits. I don't think his violence against men was gender based. I actually don't care that much either way, but personally, if I were to go to that category to find articles on "gender based violence against men", I wouldn't be looking for stories like this. This isn't gender based violence against men imo. I think adding this to the category does a disservice to the category and those who might wish to use that category to find a specific type of article. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 03:09, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- The root cause of the root cause of the root cause doesn't matter Bobo. He hated men, and RS sources point out that he targeted men, as well as women. Again, I point you to how these categories are being used for every other article - do the Taliban hate women for being women, or because that's how their interpretation of the Koran instructs them, or because that's what they were taught in school? It doesn't matter for the category to apply - if someone targets women for violence, the category fits. He targeted men for violence, that much is clear.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 03:00, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- As far as we know, none of the women Rodger killed rejected Rodger or even knew him. I think Rodger's stated motive and why victims were targeted matters for the category. The victims who were strangers to Rodger were white, does that mean this belongs in a category "violence against whites"? I'd say no because according to his stated motive he did not target whites for being white. Similarly, he did not target men for being men but he was very clear on targeting women for being women. I saw no sources that indicated Rodger hated men for being men but rather for their (imagined) relation to women. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 02:49, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- As far as we know, none of the men he killed was with a woman at the time. As far as we know, he didn't know whether any of them were sexually active. All of them could have been virgins just like him, for all he knew. Whatever the ideas beneath his rage, they didn't seem to affect which men he chose to kill. So it doesn't make sense to form ANY kind of link between those ideas and those killings. Mandruss (talk) 02:28, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- We can also do a very simplified hypothetical. Suppose a killer posts a video saying "I hate all of you women, I can't stand you. To punish you, I'm going to kill all of your boyfriends and husbands" - and then goes on to massacre their boyfriends and husbands. Articles will say "Well, this was clearly motivated by hatred of women" - ok, fine, but it was still "violence against men"! A more complex version is what actually happened here - he didn't just hate women, he also hated men - perhaps he only hated a certain type of men - e.g. ones who had sex with women - but that's still a pretty broad list, and that list remains gendered, and his violence was accordingly gendered. We should also look for sources to see if this was also racially motivated - I think all of his roommates killed were Asians, and he seemed to despise Asians.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:13, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- Support: The sources do appear to support that this was a misandrist as well as a misogynist-motivated attack. I support inclusion of the category. Cla68 (talk) 07:07, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- Support the inclusion of the category violence against men based on the sourcing and the location he specifically chose to target. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:42, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- Support - reading parts of his manifesto as well as RS coverage, this guy hated some men and women, and it's easily demonstrated he lashed out at both. I'll be so bold as to say that making this only about women is political, not encyclopedic.Mattnad (talk) 18:40, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- Question - Have reliable sources used the word "misandry" or "misandrist" to describe Elliot Rodger? I've seen many RS refer call Rodger misogynistic, but only seen the misandrist label given to him by non-neutral groups such as mens rights advocate, blogs, comments section of articles, etc. What I'm hearing from a lot of supporters of the category sounds like "I read his stuff and deemed it misandrist" or "his actions seem like misandry to me" and while that may be a very reasonable conclusion, that's original research or synthesis. To be encyclopedic, we need to simply reflect the reliable sources. Have reliable sources specifically labeled him a misandrist? --BoboMeowCat (talk) 19:10, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- The terms 'misandry' and 'misandrist' are not requirements to add the 'violence against men' cat nor any other cat (that I'm aware of). The cat specifically refers to gender-based violence, which is what Rodgers had committed, and Obi had demonstrated a few posts up. Also, I am all for sticking to the sources, which is why we cited them in terms of him hating against men and for the attacks. Though him being a 'misandrist' as demonstrated by reliable sources is not required to add the category, just the demonstration of gender based violence. Also, the sources cited (as you can see above in Obi's post, he demonstrated it rather clearly) that the sources did describe him as hating men. We're not arguing for the addition of a 'misandrist' cat (if such one exists), but purely for the cat already being discussed. One last thing; just because a source is biased does not mean we can't use it. See WP:BIASED. There may be other factors that may disqualify its credibility, but being biased is not one of them. Tutelary (talk) 19:22, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- It's undeniable Rodger killed males and was full of hatred, but the violence against men category says it is specifically for "Articles on the topic of gender-based violence against men or boys." I do not think the reliable sources have established his killing of males was gender based. If we are going to add this to the violence against men category, seems we could go ahead and add Columbine and World Trade Center attack and countless other cases where clearly men were killed and the killers expressed hatred, but seems that category is specifically looking for gender based hatred, and I'm simply trying to determine if the RS state Rodgers had gender based hatred of men.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 19:48, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- I don't even know how to parse "gender-based hatred of men" - what other kind is there? Or are you suggesting he harbored gender-based hatred of women, but had no such feelings about men, and just killed them incidentally? Did you actually read his manifesto?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:31, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- It's undeniable Rodger killed males and was full of hatred, but the violence against men category says it is specifically for "Articles on the topic of gender-based violence against men or boys." I do not think the reliable sources have established his killing of males was gender based. If we are going to add this to the violence against men category, seems we could go ahead and add Columbine and World Trade Center attack and countless other cases where clearly men were killed and the killers expressed hatred, but seems that category is specifically looking for gender based hatred, and I'm simply trying to determine if the RS state Rodgers had gender based hatred of men.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 19:48, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- The terms 'misandry' and 'misandrist' are not requirements to add the 'violence against men' cat nor any other cat (that I'm aware of). The cat specifically refers to gender-based violence, which is what Rodgers had committed, and Obi had demonstrated a few posts up. Also, I am all for sticking to the sources, which is why we cited them in terms of him hating against men and for the attacks. Though him being a 'misandrist' as demonstrated by reliable sources is not required to add the category, just the demonstration of gender based violence. Also, the sources cited (as you can see above in Obi's post, he demonstrated it rather clearly) that the sources did describe him as hating men. We're not arguing for the addition of a 'misandrist' cat (if such one exists), but purely for the cat already being discussed. One last thing; just because a source is biased does not mean we can't use it. See WP:BIASED. There may be other factors that may disqualify its credibility, but being biased is not one of them. Tutelary (talk) 19:22, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- I gave plenty of examples above of RS who claim that he hated men - and not just individual men, but broad cross-sections of men.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:20, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- Do they use a phrases such as "Rodgers was a guy who hated men"? Seems the sources state he hated men who he imagined had sexual access to the women he felt entitled to. Reading over his stuff, the guy seemed full of hate, but have reliable sources said Rodger hated men or used word "misandry" or "misandrist" to describe him?--BoboMeowCat (talk) 19:37, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- Please see the sources I linked at the top, and yes the sources say that. Maybe he didn't hate all men, I'm not sure, but he certainly hated large numbers of them, e.g. any sexually successful man, which is Isla Vista a college party town was probably lots of them.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:28, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- Do they use a phrases such as "Rodgers was a guy who hated men"? Seems the sources state he hated men who he imagined had sexual access to the women he felt entitled to. Reading over his stuff, the guy seemed full of hate, but have reliable sources said Rodger hated men or used word "misandry" or "misandrist" to describe him?--BoboMeowCat (talk) 19:37, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- support inclusion of category, per arguments given above.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:28, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- Support Some excellent arguments above. It's just as worthy of inclusion as the violence against women category.--Shakehandsman (talk) 21:29, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose I'd call it misomania, the syndrome characterized by delusions of persecution and hatred. Not au currant, but most accurate. I don't think a misogynist would lust after women. I don't think a misandrist could have lived with male roommates or have had a relationship with a little brother. But he clearly had portions of misogyny and misandry, just not the complete package in either case. That misomania includes delusions of persecution seems right to me. snug (talk) 22:58, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- Note: we're not discussing adding the Category:Misandry category here, this is about the Category:Violence against men category. I pointed out elsewhere that many instances of violence against women are not necessarily driven by misogyny, and acts of violence against men aren't all driven by misandry - all that is necessary is someone is targeted for violence based on their gender. The sources above establish this.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:16, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- The category "violence against men" is a subcategory of the "Misandry" category. Similarly, the category "violence against women" is a subcategory of "Misogyny" category. There appears to be some misunderstanding of the category purpose. Just because men (or women) were targeted violently doesn't make the article appropriate for either of those categories. For example, the World Trade Center attack and Columbine are not included in the violence against men or women categories, even though men and women died, because for inclusion in these categories, it needs to be gender based violence. I have not seen any RS that say Rodger engaged in gender based violence against men, but I have seen multiple wikipedia editors arguing that they interpret various things they read in reliable sources that way. I've repeatedly asked for RS quotes that clearly say Rodger was either a misandrist or clearly describe his violence against men as gender based violence. I'm still waiting for such quotes. These quotes are easy to find with respect to Rodger and Misogyny/gender based violence against women, but not so about Misandry/gender based violence against men. All I've seen so far is arguments that editors here think it was misandry or gender based violence against men, but we need to find a reliable sources interpreting it that way, not just wikipedia editors intrepreting it that way. BTW, I'm by no means saying the interpretation is unreasonable, but it can't just be our interpretation. Please find quotes from commentators from reliable sources that clearly interpret Rodger's violence against men as gender based violence and/or call Rodger a misandrist, if you want to place the article in this category. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 22:50, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- I wouldn't read too much into that parenting structure of the categories. While violence against men and women can be a manifestation of misandry and misogyny, it isn't always the case - and it's besides the point. You're asking for the sources to say one very particular set of words, and refusing all of the other words the sources are using - like the fact that he targeted men he was jealous of (that comes from CNN), or that he proposed a virus that would eliminate all of the men, or that his manifesto detailed how he wanted to kill the sexually successful men he saw around him, and then, he does so- killing several, wounding several others. And you seem to forget that his targeting of men was not random - he butchered his roommates with a knife, before doing anything else. We're not talking about 9/11 here, this was personal, gender-based violence that both men and women were victims of. i suggest you re-read the sources I provided above.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 00:05, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, I verify that violence against men is a subcategory of misandry. I also think misogyny and misandry and their subcategories are too small to capture Rodger's issues. A little like convicting Capone on tax evasion. snug (talk) 22:58, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
- We don't have a misanthropy category for now...--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 00:05, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
- Note: we're not discussing adding the Category:Misandry category here, this is about the Category:Violence against men category. I pointed out elsewhere that many instances of violence against women are not necessarily driven by misogyny, and acts of violence against men aren't all driven by misandry - all that is necessary is someone is targeted for violence based on their gender. The sources above establish this.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 22:16, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
Just putting my thoughts in to this. Does the addition mean he killed men or that he killed them because they were men? from the manifesto (that is generally believed to be his motive) it seems the women were killed because they were women and the attempt at the sorority house was inspired by this. then again, he did seem to kill in discriminatory, which gives the idea that, in intent, he wanted to kill lots of women, but in reality, he killed people on both gender. If anything they should both be removed, although in that, we have the issue that we are removing somebody who frequently contributed to anti-female hate websites and wrote an anti-female manifesto not categorised by his shooting of women. it's sort of like if somebody posted on anti-jewish websites and wrote an anti-jewish manifesto but killed jewish people and non-jewish people in a similar shooting. would Wikipedia categorise by both even though his sentiments were pejoratively against women? he was not a misandronist but he did murder men. How do you categorise by that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.193.191.143 (talk) 13:36, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
- "Would Wikipedia categorise by both?" I think the answer is no. The vast majority of sources describe this as violence against women, based on evidence such as his manifesto. The rest is really academic; I can't find any sources categorising this as anti-male violence, so that category doesn't warrant inclusion. Secondly, the argument against removing the "violence against women category" — namely "he hated men too" — is a fringe viewpoint of conservative op-eds, and there are much more voices stating that deal with what is effectively a logical fallacy of saying "therefore he wasn't a misogynist". To remove the VAW category on that basis — as has happened several times — is a violation of WP:UNDUE. So is stating that his murder of his flatmates was for any other reason than to turn his apartment into a torture chamber and killing room, as there are no sources to that effect. Sceptre (talk) 13:09, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
- While most sources fixate on his anger towards women, there are some that mention he had issues with men as well. That there are more sources focusing on his hatred of women is more a product of the success that women's rights groups and feminist theory has had raising awareness of societal inequality. There are more voices out there who have been educated with that perspective (myself included - I took nearly dozen courses on feminist theory, and women's literature in college). Your hypothesis about why he killed his roommates is interesting, but not really relevant. I'm a little surprised by the pushback on including this category. It's not like we're saying that there was no violence against women - both can coexist.Mattnad (talk) 14:07, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
- It's not a hypothesis, it was a well covered aspect of his manifesto; example source. Sceptre (talk) 20:10, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
- This has also been discussed as a possible race-based issue that intersected with gender. see [10] - his racist ravings were mostly directed at men of color, not people of color more generally. so it had an intersection of gender + race involved. [11] also covers how he posted specific messages of hate about black and asian men (he considered himself to be "white").--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:19, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
- It's not a hypothesis, it was a well covered aspect of his manifesto; example source. Sceptre (talk) 20:10, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
- While most sources fixate on his anger towards women, there are some that mention he had issues with men as well. That there are more sources focusing on his hatred of women is more a product of the success that women's rights groups and feminist theory has had raising awareness of societal inequality. There are more voices out there who have been educated with that perspective (myself included - I took nearly dozen courses on feminist theory, and women's literature in college). Your hypothesis about why he killed his roommates is interesting, but not really relevant. I'm a little surprised by the pushback on including this category. It's not like we're saying that there was no violence against women - both can coexist.Mattnad (talk) 14:07, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
- "Would Wikipedia categorise by both?" I think the answer is no. The vast majority of sources describe this as violence against women, based on evidence such as his manifesto. The rest is really academic; I can't find any sources categorising this as anti-male violence, so that category doesn't warrant inclusion. Secondly, the argument against removing the "violence against women category" — namely "he hated men too" — is a fringe viewpoint of conservative op-eds, and there are much more voices stating that deal with what is effectively a logical fallacy of saying "therefore he wasn't a misogynist". To remove the VAW category on that basis — as has happened several times — is a violation of WP:UNDUE. So is stating that his murder of his flatmates was for any other reason than to turn his apartment into a torture chamber and killing room, as there are no sources to that effect. Sceptre (talk) 13:09, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
- Support .. However Obi-Wan please don't mention anything about race being involved, it will take away from the feminists wanting this incident to be solely about women and the female gender. Mattnad they cannot co-exist with feminists, that's not how it works. Feminists thrive on victimhood, that is how they get all of their power. If males can also be victims (in various ways throughout society), then that means feminist women lose some of their power. It also means that men will continue to suffer and be oppressed in many ways, but feminists don't care about male suffering, only about female suffering. NotHowItWorks (talk) 03:56, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
Consolidation of "Twisted" sources and citations
The article currently cites the manifesto six times, resulting in six separate entries in the References section. Two of those cite a PDF document at abclocal.go.com, one a PDF at amazonaws.com, and the other three a unique format at scribd.com. I would like to consolidate these to use one source and a single entry in the References section, using the RP template to indicate page number for citations where one is specified. My purpose for this talk section is to decide which version of the document to use.
I don't know which version will be more likely to be around for the long term. The ones not chosen could be kept in External links as backups.
The versions seem equally readable to me. They all allow zoom level adjustment for me (in the case of the PDFs, that may depend on your browser and what plugins you have installed). They all have a search function, but I can't figure out how to use it effectively in the scribd.com version. That alone causes me to favor one of the PDF versions. Is it reasonable to assume that pretty much everyone has Adobe Reader installed? Mandruss (talk) 22:06, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
- Archive the web pages. webcitation.org works for some PDFs — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:41, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
Thanks Crisco 1492. Absent any discussion, I used my best judgment. I used an archive copy that already existed at Wayback Machine (archive.org). It was archived from a PDF at DocumentCloud. This is a cloud service used by multiple major news organizations (it doesn't much matter where the original resides, since the archive copy is expected to exist "forever"). As described above, I used the Rp template for page numbers. Where a page number is specified, it appears as superscript immediately following the citation number, as [76]:136. The scribd.com version and one of the other PDFs remain in External links. Mandruss (talk) 21:52, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
See also
When I was on the article a few weeks ago the See also had a list of similar misogynistic shootings such as the ecole polytechnique massacre. Do you know what happened to the list and why it was removed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.193.191.143 (talk) 01:25, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
- There were several edits to that section on 11 June (see View history). Ecole Polytechnique ultimately went away in this edit. Mandruss (talk) 01:56, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
Thank you. It seems reading through that the list contained other mass-shootings inspired by misogynistic motives. Was the remover challenged for this? it seems to be a mistake — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.193.191.143 (talk) 13:28, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
- If there is no immediately obvious connection to the main article content, hat notes should be used. I've added them several times and had them reverted. Without them its just a random link. I've also added See also category links that cover a vast array of shootings and spree killer so as to not violate WP:UNDUE with regard to many of the entries. Furthermore, there seems to be considerable debate regarding the misogynist and/or misandrist based motives. See also sections are not to be used as an "end run" around no consensus for inclusion or decisions that an editor does not like. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) 18:40, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Image
I'd like to start a discussion on inserting an image of Elliot Rodger into the 'perpetrator' section, as it is encyclopedic for people to see the shooter in this instance. For precedent, see other major shooting articles, like Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting and 2012_Aurora_shooting. Tutelary (talk) 01:45, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
- Do you have a particular image in mind? Mandruss (talk) 02:01, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
- Since we may be allowed to use fair use regard in this, it's not limited to simply freely available images. Although if we do use the 'fair use' exception, someone else will need to write a fair use rationale for it, as I'm not really qualified to do so. I don't have any particular image in mind, though it does need to necessitate 'not over the top' criteria. So him smiling I think wouldn't be appropriate. Just to start this discussion off, how about this image? http://i.imgur.com/Fo1Qc3W.jpg (Though a fair use rationale may disqualify this one, as I believe it might qualify for only low-medium resolution images.Tutelary (talk) 02:09, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
- I generally think images add to an article, but I've yet to be inclined to learn all that copyright crap. I'm even less qualified than you, I'm sure. This article has been a pretty lonely place for a few days, so you may have to seek help with that elsewhere. Mandruss (talk) 02:20, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
- Since we may be allowed to use fair use regard in this, it's not limited to simply freely available images. Although if we do use the 'fair use' exception, someone else will need to write a fair use rationale for it, as I'm not really qualified to do so. I don't have any particular image in mind, though it does need to necessitate 'not over the top' criteria. So him smiling I think wouldn't be appropriate. Just to start this discussion off, how about this image? http://i.imgur.com/Fo1Qc3W.jpg (Though a fair use rationale may disqualify this one, as I believe it might qualify for only low-medium resolution images.Tutelary (talk) 02:09, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
I did a search a while back looking for images for this article at WM, none of Rodger I could find, plenty of Isla Vista and the college campus though. It's really a fairly simple process to upload an image, if you use this upload wizard, it pretty much walks you through it step by step. For example, in this photo of Lanza, if you look below it, you will see a section titled "Summary", these are the questions you will have to answer when you upload the image through the wizard. Immediately after you upload an image under the fair use rationale, it will be tagged for review, and usually if it's going to be deleted for some reason, it's actually pretty quick. The "purpose of use in article" and "not replaceable with free media because" questions are really important to get right as the answer to those questions will be scrutinized closely. This policy WP:IUP is a good place to start.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 14:53, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
- I've uploaded the image and given it a fair use rationale. I'm not sure if I botched it or not, I guess we'll have to see. Though I know the resolution is a problem...I don't know how to fix that. Tutelary (talk) 18:37, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Perpetrator infobox, Killings section
The data in the Killings section duplicates information in the lead infobox, and I propose removing it for that reason. This would be consistent with Sandy Hook, whereas Columbine and Aurora don't even have separate perpetrator infoboxes.
Why would they include those items in the template, if they didn't expect you to use them?
Take a look, for example, at Charles Whitman. In that case, the perpetrator infobox is the lead infobox, so there is no duplication. Mandruss (talk) 02:04, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- I think it is reasonable to have the data on the killings in both infoboxes. The Perpetrator section is set up as link for Elliot Rodger and may be the only section read by some visitors. Similarly, many people only read the beginning of an article and may not even get down to the Perpetrator section. I think a better example is the Virginia Tech Massacre, where a separate page was later created for the Perpetrator. That may or may not happen here, but I support leaving both infoboxes. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 02:25, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Another good example of this is the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting page, which also has two infoboxes, it doesn't repeat the killings data, but "Adam Lanza" is not a wiki link but Elliot Rodger is, so people less likely to only be reading Perpetrator section in that article. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 02:28, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Like the Supreme Court, I give a lot of weight to precedence. The reason for that is pretty much the same: the status quo represents the collective wisdom of many who have come before. Also, consistency between articles is a good thing. To me, these things weigh heavier than the desire to accomodate the occasional lazy reader. If I want to go right to the perpetrator, I can click "Perpetrator" in the TOC. Can you direct us to a couple of similar articles that use your technique? Mandruss (talk) 03:24, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is different than the Supreme Court, in that it is constantly evolving with the goal of most accurately and clearly providing information to the readers. Either way, the current info box is modeled after very similar cases, the Virginia Tech massacre and the Sandy Hook elementary school shootings, but honestly, I don't even think that's the best argument for keeping the spree killing data in Rodger's info box. The best argument seems to be, when another wiki page provides a link for Elliot Rodger (and I'm sure it will happen if it has not already) the reader will be referred directly to the perpetrator section of this article. Readers unfamiliar with Elliot Rodger and this case should not be presented with an info box styled in BLP format, but rather in spree killer format. Rodger was a spree killer, so that format most accurately provides the relevant information to the readers. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 14:36, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Like the Supreme Court, I give a lot of weight to precedence. The reason for that is pretty much the same: the status quo represents the collective wisdom of many who have come before. Also, consistency between articles is a good thing. To me, these things weigh heavier than the desire to accomodate the occasional lazy reader. If I want to go right to the perpetrator, I can click "Perpetrator" in the TOC. Can you direct us to a couple of similar articles that use your technique? Mandruss (talk) 03:24, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
- Another good example of this is the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting page, which also has two infoboxes, it doesn't repeat the killings data, but "Adam Lanza" is not a wiki link but Elliot Rodger is, so people less likely to only be reading Perpetrator section in that article. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 02:28, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
Would be copycat killer
Is this relevant for a mention in the responses section?
Keshav Bhide Threatened To Kill Women, Said Elliot Rodger Was 'Perfectly Justified': Cops
University of Washington Student Who Idolized Elliot Rodger Arrested
Seattle Police Arrest Man Who Claimed to Be ‘Next Elliot Rodger’
It's a definite response to the shootings, albeit a hugely disturbing one --80.193.191.143 (talk) 18:53, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- I wouldn't necessarily grant it inclusion into the article, as verifibility doesn't mean inclusion, but it's something to keep an eye on. Tutelary (talk) 19:02, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Ugh. sketchy. I don't think we should write it up here, though, unless it can pass muster as an independent article, otherwise this article will become a holding ground for lots of other copycat events. Thus far, luckily, we have threats and an arrest, which is I suppose the best possible outcome in such a situation.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:10, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- If multiple reliable sources report this as connected to Isla Vista Killings/Elliot Rodger, then it should go in the article, but seems like only a line or two. There's not much content here because fortunately he was arrested before carrying out plan of copycatting Rodger.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 19:36, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- Well I'm seriously hoping there aren't many copycat events, at least not enough to warrant a series of them included in article. I mean, don't get me wrong, there have been quite a few articles (and many comments) written in support of his actions online on websites connected to the ones that he posted on, but this seems to be the only person who considered acting these out. Here are some more sources (although it seems the Time Magazine article is the best one):
- All things considered, if we were to include it, it should probably be a sentence or two in Responses, probably at the bottom --80.193.191.143 (talk) 22:01, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
- I'd be opposed. I'll be surprised if we hear anything about this after tomorrow, outside of the tabloids. Anyway, to put it in Responses would be a departure from the existing nature of that section. Controversy, debate, memorial service, political reaction, and ... copycat threat? Mandruss (talk) 00:02, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
- It could fit in misogyny. You have a point that the story may blow over though. Maybe we should wait a day or two before making any deliberate changes to the article? If a good source publishes an article piece comparing the two then it could work out, but if it stops at the initial coverage then it may be undue --80.193.191.143 (talk) 01:15, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
Roommates
Clarification on the roommates is now available in the LA Times article.[6] Can simplify discussion of victims now.snug (talk) 14:33, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
In fact, the victims section should be slightly expanded with a bit more information on each victim, just a bit. The article feels too asymmetric... too much info on Rodger, too little on the victims.snug (talk) 00:11, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
- We could try something like in the infobox here. Gives "just a bit" more while keeping things neat and uncluttered. Mandruss (talk) 03:09, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
References
- ^ a b Staff Report, "Shots Fired in Isla Vista", UCSB Daily Nexus, May 23, 2014, 10:27 p.m. (retrieved Jun. 8, 2014).
- ^ Wenzke, Marisa "Shooting Spree Results in Seven Dead" UCSB Daily Nexus, May 24, 2014, 5:16 a.m. (retrieved Jun. 8, 2014).
- ^ Wenzke, Marisa "Witnesses Share Accounts of Tragedy in Isla Vista" UCSB Daily Nexus, May 25, 2014, 2:18 a.m. (retrieved Jun. 8, 2014).
- ^ Sheriff Bill Brown, Press Conference, May 24, 2014
- ^ SBSO Press Release 5241402, May 24, 2014
- ^ Kate Mather (Jun 20, 2014). "UCSB friends were victims of circumstance". latimes.com. Retrieved Jun 21, 2014.