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== Merge discussion == |
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*'''Propose''' merge. We need to decide either to treat all the conflict from 1947 partition plan onwards as one war, or to separate it into the 1947-48 Civil War, followed by Arab-Israeli war after the declaration of independence in May 1948. The current layout of articles is only going to confuse readers. If this is about a war in 1948 only, as the name implies, then it is about exactly the same topic as [[1948 Arab-Israeli war]]. The fact that all this is still extremely controversial doesn't mean that we don't have a need to inform readers. [[User:Itsmejudith|Itsmejudith]] ([[User talk:Itsmejudith|talk]]) 16:05, 22 September 2011 (UTC) |
Revision as of 16:05, 22 September 2011
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This article is a POV fork and should be deleted or merged
I was surprized to see this article. This edit [1] alerted me to it's existense. If there ever was a POV fork this is it. Zeq (talk) 05:37, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- This article is not a pov-forked.
- (And there is absolutely no pov in here given it just takes back summaries of others)
- The reason is that the 1948 Palestine war gathers 6 months of civil war followed by the 1948 Arab-Israeli War that started on May15, 1948 (with the birth and declaration of independence of ISrael).
- Here are numerous sources about this name : [2].
- I add that the "name" is used by scholars from all opinions : Efraim Karsh, Yoav Gelber, David Tal, Avi Shlaim and/or Ilan Pappé. It was used at least in the '50s.
- Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia. Knowledged and sciences are the motors. If people doesn't know something, it doesn't prevent from discussing this.
- Ceedjee (talk) 11:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I also think this article should be deleted. in particular because it assumes the position that the arab-israeli war was bound to the palestinian matter, which is the subject of hot debate. two articles, one for each seperate war, should suffice in covering the matter of encyclopedic interest in this, at least imho. MiS-Saath (talk) 06:35, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
- Hello MiS-Saath,
- When you write the article "assumes" something, I think you are wrong.
- There are numerous historians, from the most pro-Israeli to the most pro-Palestinian who refer to these events as the Palestine War.
- Ceedjee (talk) 09:49, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree that this is POV. The fact that the name is used by some for the war of 1948 doesn't mean that a separate article about it is motivated. Various names of the war may be mentioned in the article, if Wikipedians agree that it is needed. --Jonund (talk) 16:41, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
- The problem with this article, and its two 'sub-articles' (1947 civil war and 1948 Arab-Israeli War) is that they all encompass similar things - in fact, the 1948 Arab-Israeli War article has exactly the same scope as this one. If its scope was reduced to just May 15 and later, I'd support keeping this article, but in its current form, I completely agree with you. If no one opposes on this talk page, you should consider AfD. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 16:53, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
- This has been discussed several times and at different places but you never brought the answers to the comments.
- There are numerous sources from numerous scholars from different sensitivities who talked about 1948 Palestine Wars.
- Ceedjee (talk) 19:40, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
- You missed my point. The point is that, in fact, the 1948 Arab-Israeli War article is supposed to deal with the post-May 15 war, but it actually deals with the 1948 Palestine War, therefore the two articles have an identical scope and one of them is redundant. Because 1948 Arab-Israeli War is clearly a more recognizable name, it should be kept, and this article should be merged. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 22:27, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
- I didn't miss any point.
- The article about the 1948 Arab-Israeli war don't refer to the events before 15 May except in the context.
- And this has only be done to keep the article (1948 Arab-Israeli War) because the big majority of scholars refer to this war as the 1948 [Palestine] War.
- If you don't like it find good references to balance the ones given in the link here above.
- Ceedjee (talk) 07:31, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
- The above comment is further proof that you missed my point. I wasn't arguing about references or the validity of the term '1948 Palestine War', which I'm sure is valid for the event in question. I was arguing about the current situation on Wikipedia, which has two articles covering the same topic. In the 1948 Arab-Israeli War article, the 1947 civil war is indeed covered only in the background section, but it is extremely in-depth for a section which has a main article. Indeed it is more in-depth than the information we have at the 1948 Palestine War article.
- Again, I am not opposing the existence of the 1948 Palestine War article in principle - I am opposing based on the current balance of information between the two articles. I will support your view 100% if the 1948 Palestine War article is written sufficiently well, and the in-depth 1947-May 48 info is taken out of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War article.
- -- Ynhockey (Talk) 14:54, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
- You missed my point. The point is that, in fact, the 1948 Arab-Israeli War article is supposed to deal with the post-May 15 war, but it actually deals with the 1948 Palestine War, therefore the two articles have an identical scope and one of them is redundant. Because 1948 Arab-Israeli War is clearly a more recognizable name, it should be kept, and this article should be merged. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 22:27, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Wiki has sliced the single event into 2 using 15 May 1948 as a convenient point of reference........Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 07:41, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
- It's not just Wiki. The differentiation between the pre-15 May and the post-15 May period are made in made reputable textbooks on the subject. I think it's a good thing, because the nature of the fighting before this date, and after it, was completely different. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 14:54, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
They most certainly do, however they normally do so as a page break within the totality of the Palestine conflict....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 13:18, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
This article does not belong in WP. There's already an article about the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, plus, this article is filled with grammatical and spelling errors.
- The article covers a broader topic area than the article on 1948 Arab-Israeli war; The latter article covers events from May 15 1948 while this article includes the civil war period that preceded it. --Frederico1234 (talk) 16:41, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
Jewish refugees
I followed the link that claims that 800,000 to a million Jews became refugees from Arab Lands between 1948 to 1968. It raises a smile. Total number of Jews in the ten countries listed is given as 856,000. And 475,000 were still there in 1958. Which kind of undermines the equivalence argument that seems to be being made here. Is there a better page with a summary of the various "leavings". Something like Yemen (1949 - 60,000), Iraq(1949 - 120,000), Egypt(from 1956) etc. Fascinating though this is it shouldn't be here. Unlike the number of Jewish refugees from Palestine which belongs with estimates of the numbers of their neighbours displaced. 10,000 seems a little high though. Will check. Padres Hana (talk) 19:37, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
- Hi Padres Hana,
- This should be checked !
- All the numbers can be found in Benny Morris, 1948 : A History of the First Arab-Israeli War. I am quite sure of them, but maybe the number of refugees from Arab lands. 81.240.123.174 (talk) 14:26, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Why did the Yeshuv win?
I would to start a section on the various views of why the war ended the way it did. Any suggestions for a section heading? Padres Hana (talk) 23:10, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
- -> Outcome of the war
- What you want to do is not easy at all !
- Be sure you have access to all point of views and to find a way to introduce all of them a neutral way.
- Some new historians and Palestinians tend to defend the thesis that the Yishuv/Israeli were the stronger". That way, they can argue the exodus and in some cases the expulsion of the Palestians can have been planned or organised "under the cover of war" (as Esber titled her book).
- Traditionnal Israeli historians, but also Lapierre and Collins, or Morris -and they are not wrong-, underline they were 600,000 Jews in an "ocean" of more than 45,000,000 Arabs and that respective armies totalised in december 47 10,000 soldiers vs 165,000.
- But then everything must be nuanced :
- Arabs were not Palesitians and until May 48, it was a war between Yishuv and the Palestinians supported by 5000-10000 volunteers of the ALA
- The balance of force evolved extremelly much during the war, ending by a total Israeli superiority
- Arabs didn't suffer arms embargo before 15 May and whereas Yishuv did. But due to that, Israeli organised smugglings of weapons and were supported by Soviet Union. This helped them very much when both Arabs and Israelis were subjected to an arms embargo.
- Until Deir Yassin, the Arabs didn' want to intervene, hoping the ALA and the PAlesitnians could deal the issue alone. And when they decided to intervene, it was too late. But had they decided to intervene 6 months sooner, they would have won.
- Arabs promised support to the Palestinians but never really gave this to them (or not as much as they could have expeced or at least needed)
- After they decided to intervene, they were disorganised and didn't coordinate and even didn't support their allies. Abdallah even played a double game, discussing with the Yishuv and fighting in the side of the Arabs
- In February '48, Abdallah had been given British support to take over the Arab side of Palestine but at the condition that he didn't enter the ISraeli side...
- Globally, Israelis were better organised, had better soliders, had better officeers, had a better morale, had a stronger, more clever and more efficient leadership than Palestinians and certainly Arabs.
- Globally too, Jewish leaders had prepared that war for at least 3 years, whereas the Arabs and the Palestinians never really prepared for this.
- The fact the war started 6 months before the end of the Mandate and that the British didn't intervene in the intercommunal war helped the Yishuv very much. And in fact, if they had not had the opportunity to see the Palestinians flee (or to expel them), with this 5th column on their rear, Israelis may have lost the war if it has started on 15 May. The British attitude must be "nuanced" by the fact they let enter the ALA but prevent the Arab armies to intervene and by the fact they may have helped the Jews to take Haifa.
- All these information must be sourced, organised, and given in respecting wp:npov. That is not an easy job. 81.240.123.174 (talk) 15:15, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
I don't think this needs a separate section because as Ceedjee said, there are many different opinions on why the Yishuv/Israel won, including all of the above points. We should state the facts as attributed to reliable sources and let the reader decide. According to Morris (again I believe he is right), the main reason for the Israel's victory was far superior organization and cohesiveness. There was some infighting among Jewish forces, but this was focused around different methods for achieving the same goal. By contrast, the Arab leaders each had their own goals for the war, which were often contradictory with each other. This information is extremely important to any reader, but I don't think it needs its own section, but rather parts of it should go into each relevant section. —Ynhockey (Talk) 00:15, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
From talk page
- The events described in this article (which seems as an aggregation of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War and 1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine), started, according to the last edit by Nableezy, in November 1947 and ended late in 1949. this means that "1948 war" is not an accurate name and describes only a portion of it. This is contrary to the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, which occurred, according to the article, almost ultimately in 1948, and therefor deserves this title. BTW, it is still automatically linked from 1948 Palestine war, so navigating to this page will not be an issue. Thanks, --Hmbr (talk) 21:54, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not debating the dates. The dates are as you mostly as you described (late 1949 is not correct). Also note that the bulk of the fighting took place in 1948. 1949 is when the armistice negotiations took place. --Frederico1234 (talk) 04:39, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I have no opinion about the accuracy of the dates, you are welcomed to discuss them with Nableezy. however,as long as 1947-1949 are mentioned as the years when these events (which include the 1947-1948 civil war)occurred, 1948 war will be a misleading name, which blurs the boundaries between this article and the 1948 Arab-Israeli War article. Thanks. Hmbr (talk) 08:11, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not debating the dates. The dates are as you mostly as you described (late 1949 is not correct). Also note that the bulk of the fighting took place in 1948. 1949 is when the armistice negotiations took place. --Frederico1234 (talk) 04:39, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Hmbr is correct, the name "1948 Palestine War" is simply a synonym for the "1948 Arab–Israeli War", while this article discusses both 1948 Arab-Israeli War and 1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine Marokwitz (talk) 11:19, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Frederico. Mentioning anything other than 1948 in the title is misleading, and same goes for the article 1847–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine. This title suggests that the war lasted 3 years, while in reality it lasted about 1 year. Essentially the war took place between March 1948 and January 7, 1949 with minor fighting before and after these dates (from November 30, 1947 to March 1949). I have not seen a single source refer to this war as the 1947–1949 Palestine War or anything of the sort. In addition, the separation of 1948 Arab–Israeli War, which used to be about both wars, was probably unwarranted as well. The entire war, in its two stages, was mostly in the confines of 1948. —Ynhockey (Talk) 20:39, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe we should also change the name of Hundred Years War? After all, it lasted a lot longer than one hundred years... RolandR (talk) 21:19, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
- The "Hundred Years War" is what it's usually called in RS. Is there a source for "1947-1949 Palestine war"? I agree with Ynhockey that the current title is problematic. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:33, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
- While we're on the subject, why do we even need this article? Does it have any information that is not already in 1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine or 1948 Arab–Israeli War? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:42, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
- The scope of this article is both 1948 Arab-Israeli War and 1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine. Can you find reliable sources referring to these two topics as the "1948 Palestine war" as it was originally named? So I see two options, either keep the current title, or nominate the article for deletion as a duplicate of 1948 Arab–Israeli War. 06:24, 8 October 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marokwitz (talk • contribs)
- That has been tried in the past and failed. This covers a broader topic than 1948 Arab-Israeli War. nableezy - 14:09, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
- What does this article have that is not included in 1948 Arab-Israeli War and 1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:06, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
- It is not supposed to have material not in those articles, this should summarize those articles. This is a "parent article" to those two. nableezy - 15:35, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
- What does this article have that is not included in 1948 Arab-Israeli War and 1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:06, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
- That has been tried in the past and failed. This covers a broader topic than 1948 Arab-Israeli War. nableezy - 14:09, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
- The scope of this article is both 1948 Arab-Israeli War and 1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine. Can you find reliable sources referring to these two topics as the "1948 Palestine war" as it was originally named? So I see two options, either keep the current title, or nominate the article for deletion as a duplicate of 1948 Arab–Israeli War. 06:24, 8 October 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marokwitz (talk • contribs)
- Maybe we should also change the name of Hundred Years War? After all, it lasted a lot longer than one hundred years... RolandR (talk) 21:19, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
The 1948 title never had consensus to move from. If people wish to move it from that title they should follow the normal procedure. nableezy - 14:09, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
- What's the basis for "1948 Palestine war"? Sources? The current title is problematic. I'd even prefer something like Morris' "The First Arab-Israeli war". No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:06, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
- Sources: Karsh, The Arab-Israeli conflict: The Palestine War 1948 (you like Karsh, right?)
p. 8: Thus began the Palestine War, probably the most important Middle-Eastern armed confrontation since the destruction of the Ottoman Empire and the creation of the new regional order on its ruins in the wake of the First World War. It was to be divided into two distinct phases. The first began on 30 November 1947, the day after the adoption of the Partition Resolution, and ended on 14 May 1948 with the termination of the British Mandate. It was essentially a civil war ... The second phase started on the night of 14-15 May 1948, a few hours after the proclamation of the State of Israel, and involved a converted attack by the armed forces of Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Transjordan, Lebanon, as well as a Saudi contingent, on the nascent Jewish state.
- Ill get some more when I have some time. nableezy - 15:35, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
- Sources: Karsh, The Arab-Israeli conflict: The Palestine War 1948 (you like Karsh, right?)
This discussions already occured many times. We use the titles that are used by historians. Here, we have eg :
- Efraim Karsh, The Arab-Israeli Conflict. The Palestine 1948 War, Oxford, Osprey, 2002.
- Yoav Gelber, Palestine 1948: War, Escape and the Emergence of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, Sussex Academic Press, Brighton & Portland, 2001.
- David Tal, War in Palestine, 1948: strategy and diplomacy, Routledge, 2004
81.247.43.182 (talk) 21:13, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
- "Arab-Israeli war" seems to be more popular:
- ~2500+ hits on google books for 1948 Arab-Israeli war
- ~950 hits for 1948 Palestine war
- By the way, the sources you supplied above don't necessarily support the current title. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:26, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
- You do realize that "1948 Palestine War" and "1948 Arab-Israeli War" are not synonymous, right? That comparing google hit counts for each is meaningless, right? nableezy - 21:39, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
- Now that you mention it, "1948 Arab-Israeli war" can encompass the whole 1947-1949 conflict (like in Morris' book), or just May '48 onward. Someone should disambig the other article. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:33, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
- "1948 Arab-Israeli war" and "1948 Palestine war" are completely synonymous and are used interchangeably by the academic community. Not one source has been provided making this distinction. Marokwitz (talk) 07:25, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
- Marokwitz, the 1948 Arab-Israeli war didn't start on 15 May 1948 when 7 Arab states attacked the newly born state ? Are you sure ? Some Israelis would not hesitate to lapidate you for such a claim ?
- A famous academic source is eg : Howard Sachar, A History of Israeli - From the rise of Zionism to our time. He makes clearly start the war on 15 May 1948. Hopefully.
- 81.247.208.44 (talk) 08:00, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
- You do realize that "1948 Palestine War" and "1948 Arab-Israeli War" are not synonymous, right? That comparing google hit counts for each is meaningless, right? nableezy - 21:39, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
That discussion arose here in the past and numerous sources were provided.
Those who consider that "Arab-Israeli War" is more popular (or neutral) to refer to the full period could go and discuss the title Yom Kippur War and argue to move this to 1973 Arab-Israeli War. Unless their only motivation is to wipe "Palestine". 81.247.208.44 (talk) 08:04, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
- Feel free to open a similar discussion on the Yom Kippur article. And it would be nice if you logged in with your account. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 11:14, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
Disagreement regarding the start date of the 1948 Palestine war
The actual date when the 1948 Palestine war started is in dispute. Some scholars say that the war started on May 1948, in contradiction to what this article says. I added this information regarding this disagreement to the lead. After all, if there is a dispute between scholars, NPOV dictates that we should present both sides. Marokwitz (talk) 08:02, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- No. It is not disputed by scholars. Only by you.
- And if it would, it should not be the first line of the article.
- 81.247.205.179 (talk) 08:11, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- ^ Bitter harvest: a modern history of Palestine, By Sami Hadawi, p.92. 1991. Hadawi writes that "Israelis allege" that the war started on May 15, 1948.
- ^ Two sides of the same coin : Jewish and Palestinian refugees : hearing, DIANE Publishing, p. 13.
- ^ The Middle East: a history. by Sydney Nettleton Fisher. Knopf, 1979. Page 678
- ^ Economic policy in Iraq, 1932-1950 By Joseph Sassoon, p. 98. 1987
- ^ From the ends of the earth: the peoples of Israel. Howard Morley Sachar. p. 38. 1964
Per WP:LEDE the lead should summarize the major viewpoints and controversies. Also I'm sure you are familiar with WP:NPOV. On what basis are you saying that It is not disputed by scholars? Marokwitz (talk) 08:15, 10 October 2010 (
- Welcome on the talk page.
- "Disputed by scholars" would mean they debate about this. They don't.
- "summarize the major viewpoints" would mean they are already in the core of the articles. They are not.
- 81.247.205.179 (talk) 08:21, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- Markowitz, could you check the dates of the books you use as reference ? Are they recent ? Do they talk about the '48 war ? You just "googlebook searched" for information but did you try to contextualize the information ? 81.247.205.179 (talk) 08:23, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- Welcome on the talk page.
- Yes, they do debate . For example see the Sami Hadawi reference which clearly debates it and bashes the Israeli viewpoint. And I did read the content carefully - many of the books are not recent. So what? We are talking about 1948. There is no Wikipedia policy saying that newer sources are automatically more reliable.Marokwitz (talk) 08:25, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- I added the dates. Marokwitz (talk) 08:28, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- They don't debate. She gives the viewpoint of the "Israelis" pov poshers. Not of the scholars.
- The fact the books are not recent is important. They were written in the contact that Israeli propaganda wanted to make start the war "on 15 May when the newly born state was attacked by 7 arab states".
- Since then all scholars, in recent publications, and even Karsh, Tal, Gelber, ... remind everybody that it started just after the partition vote.
- It is hard to debate with Karsh, Tal, Gelber, Pappé, Shlaim, ... 30 years before they publish their work !
- 81.247.205.179 (talk) 08:34, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- Your agenda is becoming clear. So If "Israeli propaganda wanted to make start the war on 15 May", why should this be censored from the lead ? After all, NPOV states that we should give equal validity to the views of both sides, based on reliable sources. Are you claiming that the sources that I provided are unreliable? Marokwitz (talk) 08:37, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- They are reliable in the context in which they are written. These are not historical books about the '48 war. You don't contextualize them in the way you use the quotes.
- You added this in the first line of the lead. So, you think this is the most important information about that war. The fact that you found scholars in the '70s who made this war start on 15 May and that today, it is not the case... Are you sure this is the most important information ?
- NPoV doesn't give the same weight to each point of view. NPoV gives to each pov a weight proportionnal to its acceptance among the scholars. Creationnism has not the same value as Evolution. They are not given the same weight in articles.
- There is no debate among scholars about this. People couldn't answer 30 years before other published. And again, Karsh, Gelber, Pappé, +Khalidi, +Walidhi, Shlaim, Tal,... is a recent panel wide enough.
- The one who has an agenda disclosed this when he quoted only Karsh and forgot all the other historians. Strangely. Do you have an explanation about this ?
- 81.247.59.67 (talk) 08:56, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- The widespread view of scholars is that the Palestine war officially started on May 15. This is of course a terminological issue, not a factual dispute. I used Karsh since he was cited in the article as the source for this information and I was able to verify it. I provided easy to verify citations with page numbers. Where are yours? Marokwitz (talk) 09:15, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- You misquoted the references you give. As it was explained to you. They are not in the right context.
- It is not "my quotes" versus "yours". You are assumed to check all the documentation, which you did not. We write an encyclopaedia. We are not assumed to be JIDF fighters who defend the integrity of ISRAEL. You are an expert googlescholar. Why didn't you check in the books that were already given to you here above ? You don't like what they say ? Wikipedia:Writing for the opponent is difficult, isn't it ?
- You provided page number with 1 line you interpret. The last one cannot be checekd. None from historian. Nore from recent book. None from books about the war. Just start from here. The introduction of the book of Yoav Gelber : "(...), this book attempts to integrate present controversies concerning the development of the JewishPalestinian war from December 1947 to mid-May 1948 and the consecutive IsraeliArab war."
- You write : "The widespread view of scholars is that the Palestine war officially started on May 15." LOL. You can lie to yourself if you like. That will not change much. 81.247.59.67 (talk) 09:49, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- The widespread view of scholars is that the Palestine war officially started on May 15. This is of course a terminological issue, not a factual dispute. I used Karsh since he was cited in the article as the source for this information and I was able to verify it. I provided easy to verify citations with page numbers. Where are yours? Marokwitz (talk) 09:15, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- Your agenda is becoming clear. So If "Israeli propaganda wanted to make start the war on 15 May", why should this be censored from the lead ? After all, NPOV states that we should give equal validity to the views of both sides, based on reliable sources. Are you claiming that the sources that I provided are unreliable? Marokwitz (talk) 08:37, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- My point exactly, in your quote Gelber does not seem to agree with the article, which says: "The 1948 Palestine war refers to the events ... between the United Nations vote on the partition plan on November 30, 1947, to the end of the first Arab-Israeli war on July 20, 1949" . He treats it as a "Jewish Palestinian war" from December 1947 to mid-May 1948 and a consecutive "Israeli Arab war" starting in May. No mention of the so called "1948 Palestine war of November 30, 1947 - July 20, 1949". Do you have a proper source that actually agrees with the lead? Marokwitz (talk) 09:59, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- The lead fits what Gelber says. His book is about the Palestine war and he clarifies in the quote that I give you that there are two phases. One of them is the Arab-Israeli war. That is what is explained in the lead. And all is said.
- I have other quotes (because I have these books) but before, you will answer my questions :
- 1. Are you looking for the facts and to improve the encyclopaedia or do you just attack this article ?
- 2. You defended here above the title "Arab-Israeli war". Will you go on the article "yom kippur war" to discuss the issue of that article after you had widely and properly checked the litterature ?
- 3. Why did you only give the reference to Karsh and not to the other historians ?
- 4. You claim here above : "the widespread view of scholars is that the Palestine war officially started on May 15." If I provide quotes from the books that were given here above, what can we conclude ?
- 81.247.59.67 (talk) 10:24, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- My point exactly, in your quote Gelber does not seem to agree with the article, which says: "The 1948 Palestine war refers to the events ... between the United Nations vote on the partition plan on November 30, 1947, to the end of the first Arab-Israeli war on July 20, 1949" . He treats it as a "Jewish Palestinian war" from December 1947 to mid-May 1948 and a consecutive "Israeli Arab war" starting in May. No mention of the so called "1948 Palestine war of November 30, 1947 - July 20, 1949". Do you have a proper source that actually agrees with the lead? Marokwitz (talk) 09:59, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- The Gelber quote you provided does not say anything about the "Palestine war" consisting of two phases. Perhaps he says so, but you didn't provide a proper citation or quote, and I have no way to verify this. And he provides different dates which clearly contradict the article lead. So far in my research I saw that the vast majority of sources refer to the 1948 "Palestine war" as beginning in May 15, a matter which the article completely ignored. And even if there are scholars who divide things otherwise, both opinions should be mentioned. Regarding your questions,
- Yes, I am aiming to to improve the encyclopedia and add notable facts which some editors prefer to censor.
- Not currently, that war is not a topic of interest to me at this point. I rather stick to this article.
- That source already cited by the article and readily available . By the way Shlaim does seem to agree that the Palestine war stared in May 15 .
- Providing better quotes from reliable sources would have effect on due weight that should given to each viewpoint. Marokwitz (talk) 10:48, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- Gelber wrote a book about the "1948 Palestine War" and he descrides two phases for that war. A civil war and the Arab-Israeli war. That is not a quote : that is a full book that sustains the lead. As all the other books given.
- The only source that says the contrary, up to now, is the one you gave from Shlaim. It deserves consideration. There is also one book of Pappé that states the contrary and I found one that makes start the 1948 Arab-Israeli War on 30 november...
- If (1) was true, you would have written on the talk page of (2) and you would have provided all other sources with their cleam instead of censoring them. You failed purposedly to answer to point (3). You only quoted Karsh whereas there are many other sources that corroborate your point of view, which is in contraduction with (1). Why else ? The reliality or not of (4) will prove who has an agenda and who censors (as not giving all the sources he founds. - By the way, didn't you agressively claim here above the article had to be named 1947-49 Palestine war ?). So, if (1) was true you would already have provided all the sources that corroborate the 30 november 1947. It is not too late. 81.247.59.67 (talk) 11:10, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't fully understand your response, too many twists for my feeble brain. I provided many reliable and academic sources, which you don't like for some reason (new historians are more reliable?). I have no idea how the other article about the Yom Kippur war is relevant, I'm not involved in editing it. Please stop attacking me and focus on the topic itself. Are you intending to provide the quotes and exact citations as promised? Marokwitz (talk) 11:17, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- You provided one reliable source for what you sustain and for one of them you didn't read fully because and misinterpret this. I don't attack you. I just anticipate a little bit. Next time you will attack an article with this method it will be easier to prove where you go (or want to go) with this "hypercritical method". For you that is a game to attack articles. For others, that is vandalism of their work. Once again, collaboration would have meant to put all material you gathered, which you did not. 91.180.143.179 (talk) 06:04, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't fully understand your response, too many twists for my feeble brain. I provided many reliable and academic sources, which you don't like for some reason (new historians are more reliable?). I have no idea how the other article about the Yom Kippur war is relevant, I'm not involved in editing it. Please stop attacking me and focus on the topic itself. Are you intending to provide the quotes and exact citations as promised? Marokwitz (talk) 11:17, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- I don't violate WP:AGF. I asked you many times why you didn't provide all the information you got and only gather material from one side. More, you come on a topic which you don't know. 91.180.143.179 (talk) 13:54, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
- Why don't you stick to the facts rather than try to impinge other editors? You didn't give all the sources either, now did you? Or have you never heard of Morris's book "1948: The first Arab Israeli War" which was published in 2008? How about Karsh? All your talk about JIDF and Israeli propaganda is pretty transparent. Also, You're an experienced editor. Why don't you login with your account? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 11:26, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- Efraim Karsh, Yoav Gelber and David Tal are new historians ? Since when ? They would not appreciate. No. But they are recent ones all these three opposed to New Historians virulently.
- Mr Guy, I provided in the past many sources from all sides. They are gathered eg, in this article and they are also in the IPCOOL projet. A soon as you can provide a source, please, don't hesitate. Morris last book gives another definition of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War and makes this start on November 30. (Not logging prevents wp:wikistalking...)
- You both attacked on this article (because this is an attack), first on the title, now on the definition of the dates. This is part of the "historiography" of that war.
- Here below is a list of link to sources sustaining the (obvious) start of the "Palestine War" on November 30. Markowitz found all of them in his google reasearch but didn't report them (he reported one but it says the contrary). Anyway, all this must be analysed, as always, when just "looking for a sentence" with googlebook and reading the full book.
- I have also other links that does not sustain this (Morris and Pappé ; Markowitz found one with Shlaim). All this must be formated properly and all the sources must be compared and contextualized according to who talk and when. I currently lack time and that will be for next WE for what concerns me.
- Another step is to gather quotes from paper books and historical books (such as 1948 from Morris). Then to understand why some as Pappé and Shlaim made this start on 15 May.
- The mountain will give birth to a mouse but that is the way it works here. If wikipedia thanks to some editor pressure would prove the Palestine war started on 15 May, these articles should be speedy deleted : Operation Nachshon (4 April), Operation Bi'ur Hametz (20 April) or Operation Yiftah (April-May). 91.180.143.179 (talk) 06:04, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
- Why don't you stick to the facts rather than try to impinge other editors? You didn't give all the sources either, now did you? Or have you never heard of Morris's book "1948: The first Arab Israeli War" which was published in 2008? How about Karsh? All your talk about JIDF and Israeli propaganda is pretty transparent. Also, You're an experienced editor. Why don't you login with your account? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 11:26, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
- Finally, you are giving verifiable sources. Sadly, it seems that you completely misunderstood the motives. Nobody is trying to "prove" that the Palestine war started on 15 May. We are simply guided by reliable sources, which differ on this topic. The intention is to show that there are differing definitions of when the war started, as the sources (including ones provided by you) clearly show, and have the article reflect the different viewpoints, according to the principle of NPOV, which says that all majority and significant minority views should be represented. Attacking editors, failing to assume good faith, and rejecting reliable, published sources without any policy-compliant reason are simply disruptive. Marokwitz (talk) 09:15, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
- The dates are in the link. Just read them. 91.180.143.179 (talk) 13:52, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
- Finally, you are giving verifiable sources. Sadly, it seems that you completely misunderstood the motives. Nobody is trying to "prove" that the Palestine war started on 15 May. We are simply guided by reliable sources, which differ on this topic. The intention is to show that there are differing definitions of when the war started, as the sources (including ones provided by you) clearly show, and have the article reflect the different viewpoints, according to the principle of NPOV, which says that all majority and significant minority views should be represented. Attacking editors, failing to assume good faith, and rejecting reliable, published sources without any policy-compliant reason are simply disruptive. Marokwitz (talk) 09:15, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
References
Still no time today. Next steps are to gather relevant books about the topics, give the quotes and/or information on the talk page, contextualize them and compare the notoriaty of the different authors. 81.247.201.247 (talk) 12:00, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
- I already added some of your references as citations to the article. Go for it. Marokwitz (talk) 13:08, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
Dead link
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
- http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/e/e1/NYTimes_1948_Jews_in_Arab.jpg
- In 1948 Arab–Israeli War on 2011-05-25 03:21:59, 404 Not Found
- In 1948 Arab–Israeli War on 2011-06-04 16:51:07, 404 Not Found
--JeffGBot (talk) 16:59, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
Dead link 2
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
- http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/5ba47a5c6cef541b802563e000493b8c/7f0af2bd897689b785256c330061d253%21OpenDocument
- In Jaffa on 2011-04-29 04:13:22, 404 Not Found
- In 1948 Palestine war on 2011-05-25 03:22:57, 404 Not Found
- In 1948 Palestine war on 2011-06-04 16:59:42, 404 Not Found
--JeffGBot (talk) 17:00, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
Dead link 3
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
- http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/chapter11.shtml
- In 1948 Arab–Israeli War on 2011-05-25 03:21:59, 404 Not Found
- In 1948 Arab–Israeli War on 2011-06-04 16:51:17, 404 Not Found
--JeffGBot (talk) 17:00, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
Dead link 4
During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!
- http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/93037e3b939746de8525610200567883!OpenDocument
- In Estimates of the Palestinian Refugee flight of 1948 on 2011-03-18 09:12:20, 404 Not Found
- In History of the Arab–Israeli conflict on 2011-03-30 03:46:25, 404 Not Found
- In History of the Palestinian people on 2011-04-01 01:59:34, 404 Not Found
- In 1948 Arab–Israeli War on 2011-05-25 03:21:59, 404 Not Found
- In 1948 Arab–Israeli War on 2011-06-04 16:54:09, 404 Not Found
--JeffGBot (talk) 17:00, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
Dead links
It would be much easier to check and correct these links if you could indicate exactly where they are in the article. RolandR (talk) 17:16, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
"...in which Transjordan, Egypt, Syria and Iraq sent expeditionary forces into Palestine where they fought the Israeli army."
Since this is after the founding of Israel, shouldn't it be "sent expeditionary forces into Israel where they fought the Israeli army"? And even that sounds like weasel wording in favor of the Arabs... Twin Bird (talk) 04:39, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
- No, because the forces were sent to areas designated by the UN partition resolution as part of the Palestinian state. Israel had not then (and still has not) defined its borders, so this cannot be described as an invasion of Israel. RolandR (talk) 07:18, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
I agree with Twin Bird. The Arab armies invaded Israel both de jure and de facto. Egypt crossed the border between the designated Arab and Jewish states, Syria crossed the international border, and even Jordan and Iraq attacked areas that were designated for the Jewish state. —Ynhockey (Talk) 20:06, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
- Jordan did not attack the areas designated for the Jewish state. They concentrated on holding on to the West Bank. Iraq mainly held static positions in the West Bank. --Frederico1234 (talk) 20:52, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
- Where did you get that information? I can think of a few examples where Jordan either participated in attacks against Jewish-designated areas, or occupied land designated for the Jewish state. It is true that on the political level, Jordan tried not to invade Israel "proper", but because of what they were doing in the war, this was quite difficult.
- 1) In the beginning of the war, Jordan actively participated in the Battle of Gesher, including on territory of Israel "proper", although the Iraqis made the major push (and failed).
- 2) On June 10, 1948, Jordan attacked and occupied Gezer, which was on the side of the Jewish state. AFAIK this was their main operation against Israel "proper".
- 3) Throughout the war, Jordan occupied parts of the Arava, and in March 1949 even engaged Israeli forces in Operation Uvda on the Israeli side of the Arava (the Jordanians retreated afterwards).
- These are just the examples I could think of off the top of my head.
- In any case, if there is such strong opposition to Twin Bird's proposal, perhaps we should expand the sentence to be more accurate and nuanced. For example:
- sent expeditionary forces into former British Mandate territory, including areas designated for the Jewish and Arab states. There they fought the Israeli army.
- —Ynhockey (Talk) 19:36, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
- "including areas designated for the Jewish and Arab states" pretty much means all of Palestine (excluding corpus separatum). The sentence as it reads now is accurate and balanced. Twin Birds was simply misinformed when he suggested that it needs to be changed. --Frederico1234 (talk) 20:08, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
- While I don't shy away from using the word Palestine where it's needed, it does have quite different connotations today. What objections do you have to my version? —Ynhockey (Talk) 21:41, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
- I think we could expand this sentence but we have to take care of nuanced/npov then.
- Different comments : 1. The initial sentence is extremelly nuanced if we compare this to "The Arab armies invaded Israel". 2. Gesher was an intervention, not an occupation and it occured before 15 May. 3. Gezer was a 1-day counter attack after an attack against Latrun salient. There is Kfar Eztion too but no other case with Jordan. 4. On the other side Iraqis, Syrians and Egyptians tried to invade the territory allocated to Jewish State, but not Jordanians. 5. But if we talk about invasion, on the other side, Israeli forces had already invaded territories allocated to the Arab state before 15 May : Jaffa, the whole coast north of Acre, and the Bab al-Oued / Jerusalem road. 6. we cannot forget the corpus separatum where Jordan and Egypt (at Bethlehem) sent forces too and that Israelis forces tried to control and where fights were raging.
- If we want to be more complete (and nuanced), we could write :
- On 15 May, Israel forces had defeated the Palestinian Arab militias and had invaded territories allocated to the Arab State. Palestinian Arab population was living a massive exodus and battle was raging in the corpus separatum at Jerusalem. Arab leaders sent the expeditionary forces they had prepared for intervention. Lebanon didn't take part to the fights. Syrians, Irakis and Egyptians tried to invade Israel but were stopped whereas Negev allocated to the Jewish State was isolated from the main land. Jordanian Arab Legion deployed in territories allocated to the Arab state. They blockaded Jerusalem in cutting the Tel-Aviv Jerusalem road at Latrun in Arab territory and intervened at Jerusalem where they fought the Israelis forces.
- But this may sound complex and :
- Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq sent expedionary forces to Palestine where they fought the Israeli army is a fair summary.
- 81.247.87.120 (talk) 06:00, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- While I don't shy away from using the word Palestine where it's needed, it does have quite different connotations today. What objections do you have to my version? —Ynhockey (Talk) 21:41, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
- "including areas designated for the Jewish and Arab states" pretty much means all of Palestine (excluding corpus separatum). The sentence as it reads now is accurate and balanced. Twin Birds was simply misinformed when he suggested that it needs to be changed. --Frederico1234 (talk) 20:08, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
Merge discussion
- Propose merge. We need to decide either to treat all the conflict from 1947 partition plan onwards as one war, or to separate it into the 1947-48 Civil War, followed by Arab-Israeli war after the declaration of independence in May 1948. The current layout of articles is only going to confuse readers. If this is about a war in 1948 only, as the name implies, then it is about exactly the same topic as 1948 Arab-Israeli war. The fact that all this is still extremely controversial doesn't mean that we don't have a need to inform readers. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:05, 22 September 2011 (UTC)