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:::I've long proposed to merge 1948 Palestine War with 1948 Arab-Israeli War, but the majority was against. The logic is that the overall war (whatever we call it) lasted from 1947 to 1949, with two distinct phases - the 1947-48 civil sectarian war in Mandatory Palestine and 1948-49 phase of war between Israel and the Arab League.[[User:Greyshark09|'''''GreyShark''''']] ([[User talk:Greyshark09|''dibra'']]) 17:21, 17 January 2018 (UTC) |
:::I've long proposed to merge 1948 Palestine War with 1948 Arab-Israeli War, but the majority was against. The logic is that the overall war (whatever we call it) lasted from 1947 to 1949, with two distinct phases - the 1947-48 civil sectarian war in Mandatory Palestine and 1948-49 phase of war between Israel and the Arab League.[[User:Greyshark09|'''''GreyShark''''']] ([[User talk:Greyshark09|''dibra'']]) 17:21, 17 January 2018 (UTC) |
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:::: Disconnecting the two is really ORish - most serious sources do not - one is a continuation of the other. (if at all, in the post May 1948 phase - there were two major truce periods - which are more distinct that the flow from April to May which was uninterrupted fighting up to 15 may (e.g. [[Operation Barak]], [[Kafr Saba]], [[Operation Gideon]], [[Operation Ben-Ami]]). [[User:Icewhiz|Icewhiz]] ([[User talk:Icewhiz|talk]]) 19:51, 17 January 2018 (UTC) |
:::: Disconnecting the two is really ORish - most serious sources do not - one is a continuation of the other. (if at all, in the post May 1948 phase - there were two major truce periods - which are more distinct that the flow from April to May which was uninterrupted fighting up to 15 may (e.g. [[Operation Barak]], [[Kafr Saba]], [[Operation Gideon]], [[Operation Ben-Ami]]). [[User:Icewhiz|Icewhiz]] ([[User talk:Icewhiz|talk]]) 19:51, 17 January 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''None of themp''' and '''Oppose'''. We have to follow the reliable sources and the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestine_war#Further_reading reliable sources refer to this period in terms of 1948 Palestine war].<br/> |
*'''None of themp''' and '''Oppose'''. We have to follow the reliable sources and the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestine_war#Further_reading reliable sources refer to this period in terms of 1948 Palestine war].<br/>. |
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** <span id="gelber">[[Yoav Gelber]], ''Palestine 1948'', Sussex Academic Press, Brighton, 2006, {{ISBN|978-1-84519-075-0}}</span> |
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** [[Saleh Abdel Jawad]], ''The Arab and Palestinian Narratives of the 1948 War'', in Robert I. Rotberg, ''Israeli and Palestinian Narratives of Conflict'', Indiana University Press, 2006, {{ISBN|978-0-253-21857-5}}. |
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** [[Efraim Karsh]], ''The Arab-Israeli Conflict: The Palestine War 1948'', Osprey publishing, 2002. |
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** [[Walid Khalidi]], ''[https://www.jstor.org/stable/2537835 Selected Documents on the 1948 Palestine War]'', [[Journal of Palestine Studies]], 27(3), 79, 1998. |
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** [[Benny Morris]], ''1948'', Yale University Press, 2008, {{ISBN|978-0-300-12696-9}} |
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** [[Eugene Rogan]] & [[Avi Shlaim]], ''The War for Palestine — Rewriting the history of 1948'', Cambridge University Press, 2001. |
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** [[David Tal (historian)|David Tal]], ''War in Palestine, 1948. Strategy and Diplomacy'', Routledge, 2004. |
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* The 1948 Arab Israeli War refers to something else ie the period that stared on 14 May, after the proclamation of Independence [[User:Pluto2012|Pluto2012]] ([[User talk:Pluto2012|talk]]) 05:23, 18 January 2018 (UTC) |
Revision as of 05:27, 18 January 2018
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Article Naming Preamble
- "Israeli War of Independence" is not merely the most prevalent Hebrew name for this conflict, but also the most prevalent English name. "Israeli War of Independence" should be offered as one of the English name options.
- The name "Catastrophe", like the Hebrew term "war of liberation", is polemical. There should be a more neutral Arabic option offered. For example the equivalent Arabic wikipedia page https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%AD%D8%B1%D8%A8_%D9%81%D9%84%D8%B3%D8%B7%D9%8A%D9%86_1948 is titled "1948 Palestine war" in arabic.
- Of course, the name of the article, "1948 Palestine War" is not accurate, as the conflict ran from 1947-1949. More correct terms would be "1947-1949 Palestine War" or "1947 Palestine War" using the convention that a conflict is named after its start date.
- Whatever variant on "1948 Palestine War" one chooses, this term is not neutral, as it subtly deprecate Israel's status as an independent state. The neutral term is "Israeli War of Independence". As is evident from the numerous entries at War of independence, "X War of Independence" is a standard and neutral English naming convention. A more standard article preamble is found at, e.g. Irish War of Independence:
>The Irish War of Independence (Irish: Cogadh na Saoirse)[4] or Anglo-Irish War was a guerrilla war fought from 1919 to 1921 ...
The most convincing reason not to use the term "Israeli War of Independence" in English is to subtly acknowledge Israel's status as an independent state as disputed. However, Israel is an an independent state, both de facto and de jure (in the sense of the UN Security Council). It is not for wikipedia to get into parsing the fine distinctions between types of de jure independence in its title preambles. As this very article is correct to summarize in the info box, one of the outcomes of this war was "Establishment of the State of Israel".
- Furthermore "1948 Palestine War" is apparently a neologism with little currency outside Wikipedia. It is thus not prima facie a suitable alternative to "Israeli War of Independence". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zekelayla (talk • contribs) 12:46, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you for these points. I think we can't avoid the need to change the name of this article. I like the "war of independence" option but I doubt our fellow Wikipedians will accept it as the most neutral for a couple of obvious reasons. The main reason I can think of is that it was technically also the Palestinian war of independence, only that they didn't gain any independence in the process.
- I think a better title will be either "First Arab-Israeli War" which is common among many sources, or simply take the name of the already existing article 1948 Arab–Israeli War and find a different name for that article, such as "Second Phase of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War", and change 1947–48 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine to "First Phase of the 1948 Arab—Israeli War".
- The problem with the war lasting from 1947 to 1949 is not too serious, because the war lasted only one month in 1947 and at that time it was merely an insurgency which escalated to an actual war in 1 April 1948, and the same is for 1949, when there weren't much fighting. The war was mostly fought in 1948.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 13:04, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
- 1947 Palestine War and 1947-1949 Palestine War are unappealing for the reasons you cite. 1948 Palestine War is inaccurate, and I don't know it to be a term that is really in use. First Arab-Israeli War is pretty good. Zekelayla (talk) 13:55, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
- I agree the article title needs fixing here, as the archives attest – this issue has been raised many many times. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:55, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
- Looking at the archives, no evidence was presented that "1948 Palestine War" is in use outside of wikipedia. What was provided were instances of "1948 War" and obsolete uses of "Palestine War". Zekelayla (talk) 02:40, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
- Agreed. This needs fixing. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:29, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
- Looking at the archives, no evidence was presented that "1948 Palestine War" is in use outside of wikipedia. What was provided were instances of "1948 War" and obsolete uses of "Palestine War". Zekelayla (talk) 02:40, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
- I agree the article title needs fixing here, as the archives attest – this issue has been raised many many times. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:55, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
- 1947 Palestine War and 1947-1949 Palestine War are unappealing for the reasons you cite. 1948 Palestine War is inaccurate, and I don't know it to be a term that is really in use. First Arab-Israeli War is pretty good. Zekelayla (talk) 13:55, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
Propose new names for the article
Calling other users: Huldra, Nishidani, Ynhockey, TrickyH, RolandR, Onceinawhile, IRISZOOM, Arminden, Greyshark09, Zero0000, Pluto2012,WarKosign.
I think an RFC will be a good way to solve the issue raise in the thread above. I don't see how this will turn into a bloody debate, since all of the options I can think of are not based on different ideologies or world views our users have here. So I suggest a discussion about what options are good by involved editors before we make an RFC for both involved and uninvolved editors. Just in case someone will have another proposal.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 12:05, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Stav. I hope you don't mind me adding Pluto above. It's not stacking numbers, but in deference to the fact of editors on this particular theme has done the most detailed studies. I've also added User:WarKosign. Nishidani (talk) 12:11, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
The options so far are:
- [1] Israeli War of Independence proposed by Zekelaya
- [2] First Arab–Israeli War proposed by Bolter21
- [3] 1948 Arab–Israeli War (while changing 1948 Arab–Israeli War to Second Phase of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War and 1947–48 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine to First Phase of 1948 Arab Israeli War proposed by Bolter21
Comments
- I support option 3 the most. I think option 3 might be better because many people remember the wars by their years, i.e. "the war in 1948", "the war in 1967", "the war in 1973". 1948 is also a celebrated number. Users have raised the issue that the war started in late November 1947 and ended officially in July 1949 (with the last armistice) and the last battle took place in March 1949, but the war is best known as the war that happend in 1948, as most of the fightings, and the majority of the main events took place in that year (as well as the Nakba). I personally like option 1, but I think many readers will not like it becuase indeed, Israel's independence is illegitimate to many. I want Muslim readers to read the article and I fear the use of this name will intimidate them to think Wikipedia is "pro-Israeli" or whatever. Option 2 is possible, as it is a common name given to the war, but it lacks the "1948" element, and the "Second Arab–Israeli War" is better known as the "Suez Crisis" and "Sinai War", while the third as "Six Day War".--Bolter21 (talk to me) 12:05, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Support either 1 or 3. Both are commonly used and thought to refer to the entire war, not just the part that started in May 1948. Leaning a bit more toward 1 because it's both more descriptive, and more common. To some it sounds less neutral, but wars recognized as independence wars are generally called that on Wikipedia too, regardless of what the other side thought at the time, again because it's more descriptive. —Ynhockey (Talk) 14:48, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Support 2 as option 3 is factually incorrect (the conflict was 1947-49). Option 1 is obviously unacceptable; the name is propanganda nonsense intended to draw a parallel with American history (Israel was not in a war for independence against a colonial power, but in a civil war which drew in neighbouring countries to support the weaker side). Onceinawhile (talk) 20:56, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Option1. Liking or not liking the name is not up to Wikipedia editors - we follow WP:COMMONNAME, and in this case this is clearly it.Icewhiz (talk) 22:09, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Support 2, I could also live with 3 (even if it is not factually quite correct). Option 1 is obviously completely unaccepatable, we could just as well call it the Israeli War of Ethnic Cleansing. Huldra (talk) 23:05, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Support 2. Option 3 is acceptable but a bit clunky. Option 1 would be a severe violation of NPOV and is unacceptable. It doesn't matter what it is commonly known as in Israel (though that can be mentioned inside the article). Zerotalk 01:03, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- Support 2. I would also support #1, since that is how it is traditionally called here in Israel, but since there seems to be developing a consensus here for #2, I'll go along with it. Anyway, a "Redirect" will take care of issue #1. The current title is definitely somewhat misleading, as it has no sense of direction.Davidbena (talk) 02:03, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- Support 2 sounds the best option to me.GreyShark (dibra) 06:58, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- Support 1 AND 2 both are needed for neutrality's sake. 1 because it's the most common name in English, 2 because it's more neutral. ZinedineZidane98 (talk) 07:02, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- Support 3, or 2 if necessary In Israel, the war is usually referred to as "Milhemet Tashach" ("The War of '48") or "Milhemet ha-Atzmaut" ("The War of Independence") - though many of my friends referred to it as "Milhemet ha-Atzamot" (""The War of Bones"). 1 would be POV and contentious, and would probably be repeatedly challenged. 3, although inaccurate, is more widely used and recognised. Nobody calls 1956 "the second Arab-Israeli war" or 1967 "the third", so 2 would seem both clunky and unusual. It's not inaccurate, so I could live with it; but on balance I think 3 is better. RolandR (talk) 13:05, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- None of them None of the titles seem appropriate, largely because they infringe on 1948 Arab–Israeli War, which is the best title for that article. The current title of this article is not great, but none of these are an improvement. It might be worth just renaming it 1947–1949 Palestine war to reflect the actual timespan. Number 57 13:26, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- I didn't realize that there was another article with nearly the same title, and treating on the same war. If so, after we get a consensus on a "change of name," perhaps we can then discuss the possibility of whether or not to merge these two articles.Davidbena (talk) 15:48, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- I've long proposed to merge 1948 Palestine War with 1948 Arab-Israeli War, but the majority was against. The logic is that the overall war (whatever we call it) lasted from 1947 to 1949, with two distinct phases - the 1947-48 civil sectarian war in Mandatory Palestine and 1948-49 phase of war between Israel and the Arab League.GreyShark (dibra) 17:21, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- Disconnecting the two is really ORish - most serious sources do not - one is a continuation of the other. (if at all, in the post May 1948 phase - there were two major truce periods - which are more distinct that the flow from April to May which was uninterrupted fighting up to 15 may (e.g. Operation Barak, Kafr Saba, Operation Gideon, Operation Ben-Ami). Icewhiz (talk) 19:51, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- I've long proposed to merge 1948 Palestine War with 1948 Arab-Israeli War, but the majority was against. The logic is that the overall war (whatever we call it) lasted from 1947 to 1949, with two distinct phases - the 1947-48 civil sectarian war in Mandatory Palestine and 1948-49 phase of war between Israel and the Arab League.GreyShark (dibra) 17:21, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- I didn't realize that there was another article with nearly the same title, and treating on the same war. If so, after we get a consensus on a "change of name," perhaps we can then discuss the possibility of whether or not to merge these two articles.Davidbena (talk) 15:48, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- None of themp and Oppose. We have to follow the reliable sources and the reliable sources refer to this period in terms of 1948 Palestine war.
.- Yoav Gelber, Palestine 1948, Sussex Academic Press, Brighton, 2006, ISBN 978-1-84519-075-0
- Saleh Abdel Jawad, The Arab and Palestinian Narratives of the 1948 War, in Robert I. Rotberg, Israeli and Palestinian Narratives of Conflict, Indiana University Press, 2006, ISBN 978-0-253-21857-5.
- Efraim Karsh, The Arab-Israeli Conflict: The Palestine War 1948, Osprey publishing, 2002.
- Walid Khalidi, Selected Documents on the 1948 Palestine War, Journal of Palestine Studies, 27(3), 79, 1998.
- Benny Morris, 1948, Yale University Press, 2008, ISBN 978-0-300-12696-9
- Eugene Rogan & Avi Shlaim, The War for Palestine — Rewriting the history of 1948, Cambridge University Press, 2001.
- David Tal, War in Palestine, 1948. Strategy and Diplomacy, Routledge, 2004.
- The 1948 Arab Israeli War refers to something else ie the period that stared on 14 May, after the proclamation of Independence Pluto2012 (talk) 05:23, 18 January 2018 (UTC)