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*'''Option 2''' or '''Option 1'''. "Israeli War of Independence" is the common name and in line with the standard naming convention outlined at [[Wars of Independence]]. This term has implicit only that Israel is an independent state, and does not imply Israeli independence is a good thing. The appropriate naming conventions are demonstrated at [[Irish War of Independence]]: "The '''Irish War of Independence''' ({{lang-ga|Cogadh na Saoirse}}) or '''Anglo-Irish War''' was a [[guerrilla war]] fought from 1919 to 1921 between the [[Irish Republican Army (1917–22)|Irish Republican Army]] (IRA, the army of the [[Irish Republic]]) and the British security forces in Ireland." That, said, "First Arab-Israeli War" is also in use and more correct than the current name. It works well with the names [[Second Arab-Israeli War]] and [[Third Arab-Israeli War]] which are alternate names on wikipedia for the Suez Crisis and Six Day War, respectively. [[User:Zekelayla|Zekelayla]] ([[User talk:Zekelayla|talk]]) 05:46, 22 January 2018 (UTC) |
*'''Option 2''' or '''Option 1'''. "Israeli War of Independence" is the common name and in line with the standard naming convention outlined at [[Wars of Independence]]. This term has implicit only that Israel is an independent state, and does not imply Israeli independence is a good thing. The appropriate naming conventions are demonstrated at [[Irish War of Independence]]: "The '''Irish War of Independence''' ({{lang-ga|Cogadh na Saoirse}}) or '''Anglo-Irish War''' was a [[guerrilla war]] fought from 1919 to 1921 between the [[Irish Republican Army (1917–22)|Irish Republican Army]] (IRA, the army of the [[Irish Republic]]) and the British security forces in Ireland." That, said, "First Arab-Israeli War" is also in use and more correct than the current name. It works well with the names [[Second Arab-Israeli War]] and [[Third Arab-Israeli War]] which are alternate names on wikipedia for the Suez Crisis and Six Day War, respectively. [[User:Zekelayla|Zekelayla]] ([[User talk:Zekelayla|talk]]) 05:46, 22 January 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Option 2''' Is the most [[WP:COMMONNAME]]--[[user:Shrike|Shrike]] ([[User talk:Shrike|talk]]) 08:30, 22 January 2018 (UTC) |
*'''Option 2''' Is the most [[WP:COMMONNAME]]--[[user:Shrike|Shrike]] ([[User talk:Shrike|talk]]) 08:30, 22 January 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''': Users {{U|Huldra}}, {{U|Zero0000}} {{U|Nishidani}} have called to stick with the current name, based on the argument presented by {{U|Pluto2012}}. Zero0000 summed the claim by saying that "{{tq|"Palestine war" is a common name used by a wide variety of historians from right to left}}". Pluto0000 has listed eight books from a wide range of scholars to support the notion (retrieved from the article's "further reading" section), but it seems to me the list doesn't really support this notion. Only two out of the eight use the term "Palestine War": Walid Khalidi's ''"[https://www.jstor.org/stable/2537835 Selected Documents on the 1948 Palestine War]"'' and Efraim Karsh's ''The Arab-Israeli Conflict: The Palestine War 1948''. These two are strong examples, as the two are respected scholars from both sides, but the six other examples do not help the notion. Yoav Gelber's ''Palestine 1948'' is not an example. He does not call it the "1948 Palestine War" or "Palestine War". The [http://www.sussex-academic.com/sa/titles/middle_east_studies/Gelber.htm book's page] in its publisher's website refers to the war as ''Jewish–Palestinian war from December 1947 to mid-May 1948 and the consecutive Israeli–Arab war''. Saleh Abdel Jawad's ''The Arab and Palestinian Narratives of the 1948 War'' calls it the "1948 War", not the "1948 Palestine War". Bonny Morris' book's full name is actually '''Option 2''': ''[https://www.theguardian.com/books/2008/may/31/history1 1948: The First Arab-Israeli War]". Eugene Rogan & Avi Shlaim's ''The War for Palestine — Rewriting the history of 1948'' is just like the Yoav Gelber example, not a name for the war. It is like calling World War II "the war for Europe", which is a poetic title for a book, not a proper historeographic name for a war. The same goes again for ''War in Palestine, 1948'' by David Tal and Henry Laurens example. |
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:So I can say clrealy that '''Pluto's argument that "Palestine War" is the proper name for the article based on sources is not supported by the sources he provided'''. |
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:In that spirit, here is an honest historeogprahical evidence for each option: |
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:'''First Arab Israeli War''' |
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:*[[Benny Morris]]: ''[https://books.google.co.il/books?id=J5jtAAAAMAAJ&q=First+Arab+Israeli+War&dq=First+Arab+Israeli+War&hl=iw&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwji2tyyv-vYAhUCblAKHb7sCSIQ6AEIJjAA 1948: A History of The First Arab-Israeli War]'' |
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:*[[Dan Kurzman]]: ''[https://books.google.co.il/books?id=zpZtAAAAMAAJ&q=First+Arab+Israeli+War&dq=First+Arab+Israeli+War&hl=iw&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwji2tyyv-vYAhUCblAKHb7sCSIQ6AEILTAB Genesis 1948: The First Arab-Israeli War]" |
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:*[[Ilan Pappe]]: ''[https://books.google.co.il/books?id=zAJZCKAwtPMC&lpg=PP1&dq=First%20Arab%20Israeli%20War&hl=iw&pg=PR9#v=onepage&q&f=false The Making of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 1947-1951]'', p.ix: "Finally, a note on the choice of an adequate name for the first Arab–Israeli war. Arabs and Jews describe the same event in contradictory ways...I have chosen to call the war by its calendar name - the war of 1948" - from |
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:*Michael R. Fischbach: [https://books.google.co.il/books?id=oIWrNpuMjLAC&lpg=PP1&dq=First%20Arab%20Israeli%20War&hl=iw&pg=PR21#v=onepage&q&f=false Records of Dispossession: Palestinian Refugee Property and the Arab-Israeli Conflict, p.xxi] "in the aftermath of the first Arab–Israeli war of 1948..." |
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:*Kirsten E. Schulze: [https://books.google.co.il/books?id=IiklDwAAQBAJ&lpg=PP1&dq=First%20Arab%20Israeli%20War&hl=iw&pg=PR5#v=onepage&q=First%20Arab%20Israeli%20War&f=false ''The Arab-Israeli Conflict'' p.v]: "The first Arab–Israeli War" |
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:*Ian J. Bickerton: [https://books.google.co.il/books?id=1Yca69_RUhMC&lpg=PP1&dq=First%20Arab%20Israeli%20War&hl=iw&pg=PA67#v=onepage&q=First%20Arab%20Israeli%20War&f=false ''The Arab-Israeli Conflict: A History''], p.67: "THE FIRST ARAB ISRAELI WAR" |
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:*Bernard Reich: ''[https://books.google.co.il/books?id=_q8UAQAAIAAJ&q=First+Arab+Israeli+War&dq=First+Arab+Israeli+War&hl=iw&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiLqub2xOvYAhWMfFAKHZcPA1o4ChDoAQhMMAU An historical encyclopedia of the Arab-Israeli conflict]'', from book's description: "...the Palestine partition plan in November 1947, the first Arab-Israeli War up to the Israel-PLO Declaration of Principles and subsequent agreements..." |
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:*[[Avi Shlaim]] & [[William Roger Louis]]: [https://books.google.co.il/books?id=8YhNPNeBh8IC&lpg=PA4&dq=First%20Arab%20Israeli%20War&hl=iw&pg=PA4#v=snippet&q=first%20arab%20israeli%20war&f=false The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences] p.4: "The main losers of the first Arab–Israeli war were the Palestinians". |
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:*Laura Zittrain Eisenberg & Neil Caplan: [https://books.google.co.il/books?id=DjAyc8Ru7RoC&lpg=PA319&dq=First%20Arab%20Israeli%20War&hl=iw&pg=PA16#v=onepage&q=First%20Arab%20Israeli%20War&f=false Negotiating Arab-Israeli Peace, Second Edition: Patterns, Problems, Possibilities], p.16: "...the first Arab–Israeli war ended in early 1949..." |
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:*Hemda Ben-Yehuda, Shmuel Sandler: [https://books.google.co.il/books?id=5--g7nJ9560C&lpg=PA69&dq=First%20Arab%20Israeli%20War&hl=iw&pg=PA69#v=onepage&q=First%20Arab%20Israeli%20War&f=false Arab-Israeli Conflict Transformed, The: Fifty Years of Interstate and Ethnic Crisis], p.69: "Two of these crises were full scale wars cases——1947–1949 first Arab–Israeli war..." |
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:'''1948 Arab–Israeli War''' |
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:*Moshe Naor: ''[https://books.google.co.il/books?id=qf6AAAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=First+Arab+Israeli+War&hl=iw&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwji2tyyv-vYAhUCblAKHb7sCSIQ6AEINDAC#v=onepage&q=First%20Arab%20Israeli%20War&f=false Social Mobilization in the '''Arab/Israeli War of 1948''': On the Israeli Home Front] |
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:*Slade A. Brewer: ''[https://books.google.co.il/books?id=m_97YgEACAAJ&dq=1948+Arab+Israeli+war&hl=iw&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiCsO_Uy-vYAhWPKFAKHWehB9c4ChDoAQg8MAM The 1948 Arab-Israeli War] |
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:*[[Joshua Landis]] & Michael Doran [https://books.google.co.il/books?id=enS7kgEACAAJ&dq=1948+Arab+Israeli+war&hl=iw&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiCsO_Uy-vYAhWPKFAKHWehB9c4ChDoAQhJMAU ''The Arab-Israeli War Of 1948: Inter-Arab Rivalry and the Making of the Middle Eastern State System]'' |
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:*Maʻn Abū Nūwār: ''[https://books.google.co.il/books?id=D30D_GzUKfMC&dq=1948+Arab+Israeli+war&hl=iw&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwin_uPMzOvYAhVQZlAKHYYeCgM4FBDoAQg0MAI The Jordanian-Israeli War, 1948-1951: A History of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan'']. From book's description: "Special reference is made to the Arab-Israeli War of 1948 and its consequences". |
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:*Clark Dumont Neher: ''[https://books.google.co.il/books?id=wbcUAAAAIAAJ&q=Arab+Israeli+war+of+1948&dq=Arab+Israeli+war+of+1948&hl=iw&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiEso_PzuvYAhXLZFAKHWfdACwQ6AEIVDAG The Role of the United Nations Mediator in the Arab-Israeli War of 1948]'' |
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:*[[David Tal]]: ''[https://books.google.co.il/books?id=wlctNHq6fMYC&lpg=PA3&dq=1948%20war&hl=iw&pg=PA3#v=onepage&q&f=false The Forgotten War: Jewish–Palestinian strife in Mandatory Palestine, December 1947–May 1948]'' p.3: "...the historiography of the 1948 Arab–Israeli war..." |
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:'''1948 Palestine War''' |
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:*[[Efraim Karsh]]: ''[https://books.google.co.il/books?id=imyICwAAQBAJ&dq=1948+Palestine+war&hl=iw&source=gbs_navlinks_s The Arab-Israeli Conflict: The Palestine War 1948]'' |
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:*50minutes: ''[https://books.google.co.il/books?id=cWsODAAAQBAJ&dq=1948+Palestine+war&hl=iw&source=gbs_navlinks_s The 1948 Palestine War: The Launch of Conflict in the Middle East]'' |
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:*[[Walid Khalidi]]: ''[https://www.jstor.org/stable/2537835 Selected Documents on the 1948 Palestine War]'' |
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:*Gabriel G Tabarani: ''[https://books.google.co.il/books?id=AMqLgW_B_BAC&lpg=PA53&dq=1948%20Palestine%20war&hl=iw&pg=PA53#v=onepage&q=1948%20Palestine%20war&f=false Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: From Balfour Promise to Bush Declaration: THE COMPLICATIONS AND THE ROAD FOR A LASTING PEACE]. p.53: "...the 1948 Palestine War entered a second phase..." |
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:*Nancy Gallagher: ''[https://books.google.co.il/books?id=UMWvNhbNSAwC&lpg=PA29&dq=1948%20Palestine%20war&hl=iw&pg=PA29#v=onepage&q=1948%20Palestine%20war&f=false Quakers in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: The Dilemmas of NGO Humanitarian Activism] p.29: "The 1948 Palestine War" |
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:'''1948 War''' |
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:*[[Avraham Sela]] & Alon Kadish: ''[https://books.google.co.il/books?id=FVGSDQAAQBAJ&dq=1948+war&hl=iw&source=gbs_navlinks_s The War of 1948: Representations of Israeli and Palestinian Memories and Narratives]'' |
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:*[[Ilan Pappe]]: ''[https://books.google.co.il/books?id=zAJZCKAwtPMC&lpg=PP1&dq=First%20Arab%20Israeli%20War&hl=iw&pg=PR9#v=onepage&q&f=false The Making of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 1947-1951]'', p.ix: "Finally, a note on the choice of an adequate name for the first Arab–Israeli war. Arabs and Jews describe the same event in contradictory ways...I have chosen to call the war by its calendar name - the war of 1948" |
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:*[[David Tal]]: ''[https://books.google.co.il/books?id=zU6RAgAAQBAJ&lpg=PT213&dq=1948%20war&hl=iw&pg=PT21#v=onepage&q&f=false War in Palestine, 1948: Israeli and Arab Strategy and Diplomacy]'' p.21: "The 1948 War was over Palestine..." |
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:*Motti Golani & [[Adel Manna]]: ''[https://books.google.co.il/books?id=w_-FBAAAQBAJ&lpg=PA83&dq=1948%20war&hl=iw&pg=PA83#v=onepage&q&f=false Two Sides of the Coin: Independence and Nakba 1948. Two Narratives of the 1948 War and Its Outcome [English-Hebrew Edition]''], p.83: "...in the context of the 1948 war" |
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:*Shlomo Aloni: ''[https://books.google.co.il/books?id=eMDqoAEACAAJ&dq=1948+war&hl=iw&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjdv4y-1evYAhXDbVAKHf_VCXQ4ChDoAQglMAA Israeli Air Force Operations in the 1948 War: Israeli Winter Offensive Operation HOREV, 22 December 1948 - 7 January 1948]'' |
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:*[[David Tal]]: ''[https://books.google.co.il/books?id=wlctNHq6fMYC&lpg=PA3&dq=1948%20war&hl=iw&pg=PA3#v=onepage&q&f=false The Forgotten War: Jewish–Palestinian strife in Mandatory Palestine, December 1947–May 1948]'' p.3: "...the actual state of research on the 1948 war..." |
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:*Elisha Efrat: ''[https://books.google.co.il/books?id=wlctNHq6fMYC&lpg=PA3&dq=1948%20war&hl=iw&pg=PA239#v=onepage&q&f=false Jerusalem: Partition Plans for a Holy City]''. p.239: "After the 1948 war the city was partitioned..." |
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:There are probably much more results for "1948 war" but I am spending my time home already on this. I think the point is clear, "1948 Palestin War" is not the most common name. Even if I kept searching for sources, still the there would be more results for "1948 Arab–Israeli War" and "First Arab–Israeli War" together, and since they are simmilar, I think they prevail. |
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:I will again explain my reason to support "1948 Arab–Israeli War" for the entire war. It is better than "First Arab–Israeli War" in my opinion because it contains the 1948 element. I don't see a real reason to add "1947" and "1949" to the title. Just like the [[Hundred Years' war]] was actually 116 years, the 1948 war lasted one month in 1947 and between one to three months in 1949, the absolute majority of the events took place in 1948.--[[User:Bolter21|'''Bolter21''']] <small>''([[User talk:Bolter21|talk to me]])''</small> 13:41, 22 January 2018 (UTC) |
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== A chart showing the real issue with the page titles == |
== A chart showing the real issue with the page titles == |
Revision as of 13:41, 22 January 2018
Palestine C‑class High‑importance | ||||||||||
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Article Naming Preamble
- "Israeli War of Independence" is not merely the most prevalent Hebrew name for this conflict, but also the most prevalent English name. "Israeli War of Independence" should be offered as one of the English name options.
- The name "Catastrophe", like the Hebrew term "war of liberation", is polemical. There should be a more neutral Arabic option offered. For example the equivalent Arabic wikipedia page https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%AD%D8%B1%D8%A8_%D9%81%D9%84%D8%B3%D8%B7%D9%8A%D9%86_1948 is titled "1948 Palestine war" in arabic.
- Of course, the name of the article, "1948 Palestine War" is not accurate, as the conflict ran from 1947-1949. More correct terms would be "1947-1949 Palestine War" or "1947 Palestine War" using the convention that a conflict is named after its start date.
- Whatever variant on "1948 Palestine War" one chooses, this term is not neutral, as it subtly deprecate Israel's status as an independent state. The neutral term is "Israeli War of Independence". As is evident from the numerous entries at War of independence, "X War of Independence" is a standard and neutral English naming convention. A more standard article preamble is found at, e.g. Irish War of Independence:
>The Irish War of Independence (Irish: Cogadh na Saoirse)[4] or Anglo-Irish War was a guerrilla war fought from 1919 to 1921 ...
The most convincing reason not to use the term "Israeli War of Independence" in English is to subtly acknowledge Israel's status as an independent state as disputed. However, Israel is an an independent state, both de facto and de jure (in the sense of the UN Security Council). It is not for wikipedia to get into parsing the fine distinctions between types of de jure independence in its title preambles. As this very article is correct to summarize in the info box, one of the outcomes of this war was "Establishment of the State of Israel".
- Furthermore "1948 Palestine War" is apparently a neologism with little currency outside Wikipedia. It is thus not prima facie a suitable alternative to "Israeli War of Independence". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zekelayla (talk • contribs) 12:46, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you for these points. I think we can't avoid the need to change the name of this article. I like the "war of independence" option but I doubt our fellow Wikipedians will accept it as the most neutral for a couple of obvious reasons. The main reason I can think of is that it was technically also the Palestinian war of independence, only that they didn't gain any independence in the process.
- I think a better title will be either "First Arab-Israeli War" which is common among many sources, or simply take the name of the already existing article 1948 Arab–Israeli War and find a different name for that article, such as "Second Phase of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War", and change 1947–48 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine to "First Phase of the 1948 Arab—Israeli War".
- The problem with the war lasting from 1947 to 1949 is not too serious, because the war lasted only one month in 1947 and at that time it was merely an insurgency which escalated to an actual war in 1 April 1948, and the same is for 1949, when there weren't much fighting. The war was mostly fought in 1948.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 13:04, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
- 1947 Palestine War and 1947-1949 Palestine War are unappealing for the reasons you cite. 1948 Palestine War is inaccurate, and I don't know it to be a term that is really in use. First Arab-Israeli War is pretty good. Zekelayla (talk) 13:55, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
- I agree the article title needs fixing here, as the archives attest – this issue has been raised many many times. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:55, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
- Looking at the archives, no evidence was presented that "1948 Palestine War" is in use outside of wikipedia. What was provided were instances of "1948 War" and obsolete uses of "Palestine War". Zekelayla (talk) 02:40, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
- Agreed. This needs fixing. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:29, 13 January 2018 (UTC)
- Looking at the archives, no evidence was presented that "1948 Palestine War" is in use outside of wikipedia. What was provided were instances of "1948 War" and obsolete uses of "Palestine War". Zekelayla (talk) 02:40, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
- I agree the article title needs fixing here, as the archives attest – this issue has been raised many many times. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:55, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
- 1947 Palestine War and 1947-1949 Palestine War are unappealing for the reasons you cite. 1948 Palestine War is inaccurate, and I don't know it to be a term that is really in use. First Arab-Israeli War is pretty good. Zekelayla (talk) 13:55, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
- I suggest to read the first 3 pages of introduction of this book and in particular what follows Perhaps the most famous case of differences over the naming of an event is the 1948 war (...).
- That's very precisely the matter of this discussion.
- Pluto2012 (talk) 06:11, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Propose new names for the article
Calling other users: Huldra, Nishidani, Ynhockey, TrickyH, RolandR, Onceinawhile, IRISZOOM, Arminden, Greyshark09, Zero0000, Pluto2012,WarKosign.
I think an RFC will be a good way to solve the issue raise in the thread above. I don't see how this will turn into a bloody debate, since all of the options I can think of are not based on different ideologies or world views our users have here. So I suggest a discussion about what options are good by involved editors before we make an RFC for both involved and uninvolved editors. Just in case someone will have another proposal.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 12:05, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
The options so far are:
- [1] Israeli War of Independence proposed by Zekelaya
- [2] First Arab–Israeli War proposed by Bolter21
- [3] 1948 Arab–Israeli War (while changing 1948 Arab–Israeli War to Second Phase of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War and 1947–48 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine to First Phase of 1948 Arab Israeli War proposed by Bolter21
- It was not complied with the usual process here. Keep had to be an option too and suggested at the beginning of this vote! given it has been the title of this article during years. I add that there is no link to all the discussions about this issue, that was already adressed numerous time with the final decision/option to keep the current name. Pluto2012 (talk) 06:14, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Comments
- I support option 3 the most. I think option 3 might be better because many people remember the wars by their years, i.e. "the war in 1948", "the war in 1967", "the war in 1973". 1948 is also a celebrated number. Users have raised the issue that the war started in late November 1947 and ended officially in July 1949 (with the last armistice) and the last battle took place in March 1949, but the war is best known as the war that happend in 1948, as most of the fightings, and the majority of the main events took place in that year (as well as the Nakba). I personally like option 1, but I think many readers will not like it becuase indeed, Israel's independence is illegitimate to many. I want Muslim readers to read the article and I fear the use of this name will intimidate them to think Wikipedia is "pro-Israeli" or whatever. Option 2 is possible, as it is a common name given to the war, but it lacks the "1948" element, and the "Second Arab–Israeli War" is better known as the "Suez Crisis" and "Sinai War", while the third as "Six Day War".--Bolter21 (talk to me) 12:05, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Support either 1 or 3. Both are commonly used and thought to refer to the entire war, not just the part that started in May 1948. Leaning a bit more toward 1 because it's both more descriptive, and more common. To some it sounds less neutral, but wars recognized as independence wars are generally called that on Wikipedia too, regardless of what the other side thought at the time, again because it's more descriptive. —Ynhockey (Talk) 14:48, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Referring to this period as the Israeli war of independence is pure poved given it is the way Israeli former historiography named this period. It is a proposal equivalent to Naqba. See eg Yoav Gelber, Komemiut u-Nakba: Yisrael, Hapalestinayim Umedinot Arav, 1948' ('Independence and Nakba: Israel, the Palestinians and the Arab Countries, 1948'. I assume you don't have this book or you are not aware of this. Pluto2012 (talk) 06:24, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
- Although I tend to agree, I would suggest a much more respectful tone. Judging by Ynhockey's user page, he does have that book, at least in the English version.--Bolter21(talk to me) 06:49, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
- I am respectful in assuming he didn't read this book given this book explains there are 2 points of view among protagonists (independence vs Nakba). So whether he didn't read it or he does not want to comply with NPoV in suggesting only one of them, the "good" one. Pluto2012 (talk) 01:32, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
- Although I tend to agree, I would suggest a much more respectful tone. Judging by Ynhockey's user page, he does have that book, at least in the English version.--Bolter21(talk to me) 06:49, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
- Referring to this period as the Israeli war of independence is pure poved given it is the way Israeli former historiography named this period. It is a proposal equivalent to Naqba. See eg Yoav Gelber, Komemiut u-Nakba: Yisrael, Hapalestinayim Umedinot Arav, 1948' ('Independence and Nakba: Israel, the Palestinians and the Arab Countries, 1948'. I assume you don't have this book or you are not aware of this. Pluto2012 (talk) 06:24, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
- Support 2 as option 3 is factually incorrect (the conflict was 1947-49). Option 1 is obviously unacceptable; the name is propanganda nonsense intended to draw a parallel with American history (Israel was not in a war for independence against a colonial power, but in a civil war which drew in neighbouring countries to support the weaker side). Onceinawhile (talk) 20:56, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Option1. Liking or not liking the name is not up to Wikipedia editors - we follow WP:COMMONNAME, and in this case this is clearly it.Icewhiz (talk) 22:09, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
Support 2, I could also live with 3 (even if it is not factually quite correct). Option 1 is obviously completely unaccepatable, we could just as well call it the Israeli War of Ethnic Cleansing. Huldra (talk) 23:05, 16 January 2018 (UTC)- Support the present title, From the sources that Pluto have brought: the present name are used by a great varity of scholars. I could also live with version 2, or 3. Huldra (talk) 20:08, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
- Support the present title, or a variation such as "1948 war in Palestine". Previously I was not paying attention and Pluto has set me straight in two respects. One is that there is already a different article on the war between Israel and the Arab states that began after Israel declared independence. Second, contrary to what is claimed above, "Palestine war" is a common name used by a wide variety of historians from right to left. Search at Google Scholar for a large number of examples. If Whalid Khalidi and Efraim Karsh can both use it, arguments against it on the basis of neutrality look pretty weak. Zerotalk 07:57, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
- Support 2. I would also support #1, since that is how it is traditionally called here in Israel, but since there seems to be developing a consensus here for #2, I'll go along with it. Anyway, a "Redirect" will take care of issue #1. The current title is definitely somewhat misleading, as it has no sense of direction.Davidbena (talk) 02:03, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- Support 2 sounds the best option to me.GreyShark (dibra) 06:58, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- Support 1 AND 2 both are needed for neutrality's sake. 1 because it's the most common name in English, 2 because it's more neutral. ZinedineZidane98 (talk) 07:02, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- Support the present title; would accept change to 3, or 2 if necessary In Israel, the war is usually referred to as "Milhemet Tashach" ("The War of '48") or "Milhemet ha-Atzmaut" ("The War of Independence") - though many of my friends referred to it as "Milhemet ha-Atzamot" (""The War of Bones"). 1 would be POV and contentious, and would probably be repeatedly challenged. 3, although inaccurate, is more widely used and recognised. Nobody calls 1956 "the second Arab-Israeli war" or 1967 "the third", so 2 would seem both clunky and unusual. It's not inaccurate, so I could live with it; but on balance I think 3 is better. RolandR (talk) 13:05, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- I also heard Israelis calling it "Milhemet ha-Tzomot" ("The War of Fasting") and "Milhemet ha-Tzamot" ("The War of Braids").GreyShark (dibra) 17:21, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- "Nobody calls 1956 "the second Arab-Israeli war" or 1967 "the third". That's not true. Second Arab-Israeli War. Third Arab-Israeli War. Zekelayla (talk) 05:24, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
- None of them None of the titles seem appropriate, largely because they infringe on 1948 Arab–Israeli War, which is the best title for that article. The current title of this article is not great, but none of these are an improvement. It might be worth just renaming it 1947–1949 Palestine war to reflect the actual timespan. Number 57 13:26, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- I didn't realize that there was another article with nearly the same title, and treating on the same war. If so, after we get a consensus on a "change of name," perhaps we can then discuss the possibility of whether or not to merge these two articles.Davidbena (talk) 15:48, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- I've long proposed to merge 1948 Palestine War with 1948 Arab-Israeli War, but the majority was against. The logic is that the overall war (whatever we call it) lasted from 1947 to 1949, with two distinct phases - the 1947-48 civil sectarian war in Mandatory Palestine and 1948-49 phase of war between Israel and the Arab League.GreyShark (dibra) 17:21, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- Disconnecting the two is really ORish - most serious sources do not - one is a continuation of the other. (if at all, in the post May 1948 phase - there were two major truce periods - which are more distinct that the flow from April to May which was uninterrupted fighting up to 15 may (e.g. Operation Barak, Kafr Saba, Operation Gideon, Operation Ben-Ami). Icewhiz (talk) 19:51, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- That's what historians do and they explain why. See eg Yoav Gelber, in Palestine, 1948: war, escape and the emergence of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, Sussex Academic Press, 2d rev ed. 2004, p.4. or here: Based on new or newly interpreted Israeli, British and Arab documents, this book attempts to integrate present controversies concerning the development of the Jewish-Palestinian war from December 1947 to mid-May 1948 and the consecutive Israeli-Arab war Pluto2012 (talk) 05:41, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
- Disconnecting the two is really ORish - most serious sources do not - one is a continuation of the other. (if at all, in the post May 1948 phase - there were two major truce periods - which are more distinct that the flow from April to May which was uninterrupted fighting up to 15 may (e.g. Operation Barak, Kafr Saba, Operation Gideon, Operation Ben-Ami). Icewhiz (talk) 19:51, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- I've long proposed to merge 1948 Palestine War with 1948 Arab-Israeli War, but the majority was against. The logic is that the overall war (whatever we call it) lasted from 1947 to 1949, with two distinct phases - the 1947-48 civil sectarian war in Mandatory Palestine and 1948-49 phase of war between Israel and the Arab League.GreyShark (dibra) 17:21, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- I didn't realize that there was another article with nearly the same title, and treating on the same war. If so, after we get a consensus on a "change of name," perhaps we can then discuss the possibility of whether or not to merge these two articles.Davidbena (talk) 15:48, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- None of them and Keep. (ok also with 1947-1949 Palestine War). We have to follow the reliable sources and the reliable sources refer to this period in terms of 1948 Palestine war. (Note this is a panel of Palestinian, Israeli (New and tradionnal ones) as well as "Foreign" historians) Pluto2012 (talk) 18:00, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
- Yoav Gelber, Palestine 1948, Sussex Academic Press, Brighton, 2006, ISBN 978-1-84519-075-0
- Saleh Abdel Jawad, The Arab and Palestinian Narratives of the 1948 War, in Robert I. Rotberg, Israeli and Palestinian Narratives of Conflict, Indiana University Press, 2006, ISBN 978-0-253-21857-5.
- Efraim Karsh, The Arab-Israeli Conflict: The Palestine War 1948, Osprey publishing, 2002.
- Walid Khalidi, Selected Documents on the 1948 Palestine War, Journal of Palestine Studies, 27(3), 79, 1998.
- Benny Morris, 1948, Yale University Press, 2008, ISBN 978-0-300-12696-9
- Eugene Rogan & Avi Shlaim, The War for Palestine — Rewriting the history of 1948, Cambridge University Press, 2001.
- David Tal, War in Palestine, 1948. Strategy and Diplomacy, Routledge, 2004.
- Henry Laurens, Palestine, 1948. Les limites de l'interprétation historique, Revue Esprit, 2000.
- The 1948 Arab Israeli War refers to something else ie the period that stared on 14 May, after the proclamation of Independence Pluto2012 (talk) 05:23, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
- Stav. I hope you don't mind me adding Pluto above. It's not stacking numbers, but in deference to the fact of editors on this particular theme he has done the most detailed studies. I've also added User:WarKosign. Nishidani (talk) 12:11, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but I totally disagree with our friend User:Pluto2012. Anyone reading these two articles, 1948 Palestine War and the 1948 Arab Israeli War will see quickly by their content that we're talking about the same war. The current title of this page is too broad in scope, while it is only true that the war was fought over the control of Palestine. Honestly, I think that we should rather be discussing whether or not to merge these two articles into one.Davidbena (talk) 17:48, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
- That's maybe your mind but that's not what historians say. The sources are there !
- The 1948 Arab-Isareli War started the next day of the Independence Declaration of Israel (don't you think so ?). The 1948 Palestine War started the day after the UNO vote. Pluto2012 (talk) 17:56, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
- No, that is incorrect. There have been cessations of hostilities and renewed hostilities, but it is all one and the same war over the control of Palestine.Davidbena (talk) 18:24, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
- Once more. Read what the sources say, eg Yoav Gelber and Efraim Karsh writes as well as the source. WP:IDONTLIKEIT, without Wikipedia:Citing sources is not an argument. Pluto2012 (talk) 04:52, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
- Pluto2012 (talk) 04:52, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
- The facts, again, say otherwise. The article entitled 1948 Arab–Israeli War details many of the same battles mentioned here, in this article. That is because it covers the same war. There was only one Arab-Israeli war in 1948, where the British fought on the side of the Jordanians and tried to secure part of the country for its Arab inhabitants. The war continued late into October 1948, as we all know. "Beating around the bush" may, indeed, be a ploy by some to confuse the ordinary reader (who may be unfamiliar with events of 1948), but the bare and banal truth is that both articles are referring to the same conflict.Davidbena (talk) 13:35, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
- You don't read what is written and haven't even have read the lead.
- The 1948 Palestine War covers both the Civil War and the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. That's therefore quite logical that battles of the civil war or the conventional war are talked about here.
- We should stop here by the way: stating that the British fought on the side of the Jordanians shows that you no idea of what happened in 1948 and that you don't know the topic. Pluto2012 (talk) 17:07, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but you are the one who seems to be uninformed. Still, perhaps I should have clarified myself. The British provided arms for the Jordanian resistance. See: Sir John Bagot Glubb, A Soldier with the Arabs, London 1957, p. 200. This British officer was directing nearly all Jordanian maneuvers in the war of 1948, in hopes of securing the land for its Arab inhabitants. The lede paragraph does NOT take away from the fact that the two articles are treating on the same war.Davidbena (talk) 22:54, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
- The facts, again, say otherwise. The article entitled 1948 Arab–Israeli War details many of the same battles mentioned here, in this article. That is because it covers the same war. There was only one Arab-Israeli war in 1948, where the British fought on the side of the Jordanians and tried to secure part of the country for its Arab inhabitants. The war continued late into October 1948, as we all know. "Beating around the bush" may, indeed, be a ploy by some to confuse the ordinary reader (who may be unfamiliar with events of 1948), but the bare and banal truth is that both articles are referring to the same conflict.Davidbena (talk) 13:35, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
- No, that is incorrect. There have been cessations of hostilities and renewed hostilities, but it is all one and the same war over the control of Palestine.Davidbena (talk) 18:24, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but I totally disagree with our friend User:Pluto2012. Anyone reading these two articles, 1948 Palestine War and the 1948 Arab Israeli War will see quickly by their content that we're talking about the same war. The current title of this page is too broad in scope, while it is only true that the war was fought over the control of Palestine. Honestly, I think that we should rather be discussing whether or not to merge these two articles into one.Davidbena (talk) 17:48, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
- Only one of the sources you cite (Khalidi 1998) actually uses the term "1948 Palestine War". It is not a term in wide use. Even "1948 War (Palestine)" would be better than "1948 Palestine War". Zekelayla (talk) 05:24, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
- Stav. I hope you don't mind me adding Pluto above. It's not stacking numbers, but in deference to the fact of editors on this particular theme he has done the most detailed studies. I've also added User:WarKosign. Nishidani (talk) 12:11, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Keep and Don't alter what we have No alteration required. To the contrary the proposals go against the best scholarly usage, as Pluto has shown. The proposals are WP:OR, since there was a civil war in Mandatory Palestine (1947–48 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine) and it is anachronistic to speak of Israel before the second war 1948 Arab Israeli War, which started with Israel's independence declaration. The proposed titles making these two distinct phases, an independence battle between two populations on one terrain, and a general war between a new state and several neighbours beyond those borders, more or less an 'Arab-Israeli' continuum despoliates history of its crucial differences. Nishidani (talk) 19:50, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
- A "Civil War" is NOT the same as the Arab-Israeli War over the control of Palestine, with external military forces entering into the conflict. The two articles are dealing with the very same topic, as any person can see. There is no such thing as "Original Research" to suggest a new title. The suggestion is at best absurd!Davidbena (talk) 20:29, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
- There's is nothing 'absurd' about insisting on our adoption of what is the most common and current scholarly usage for describing places and periods. Pluto provided evidence. Going beyond the evidence to invent names that don't reflect scholarly usage is WP:OR.Nishidani (talk) 08:49, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
- There is plenty of "scholarly usage" for the title Israeli War of Independence, but since our main aim was to strike-up an agreeable chord whereby the article is immediately understood for what it is, we suggested # 2, which still seems to be the majority view (consensus). All those suggesting # 2 will disagree with your view of infringement of WP:OR. The title has nothing to do with "original research," but rather a simpler title for a well-known conflict, to which no one is in disagreement. My real area of concern, however, is not with the title, but with maintaining two separate articles describing basically the same conflict.Davidbena (talk) 21:11, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
- The Israeli war of independence is a misnomer, since there was another party fighting for independence, and such a title merely orientates the reader, and editors, to outline the Israeli path to victory, and not simply describe, neutrally, the clash of two claims for national independence in Palestine, as Wikipedia protocols oblige us to. It's rather tiresome, writing Israel's history forever with an American readership in mind, so that Israel is merely doing its version of the 'American War of Independence'. It's bad enough that we have the Palestinians invariably depicted as renegade Comanches and Apaches disturbing decent folks settling the East, along the time-hallowed ways of Hollywood westerns.Nishidani (talk) 21:21, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
- That's simply not true. While the claim that Israel was fighting for independence is factual/non-controversial, the claim that any other side was fighting for independence (and there was more than one side fighting against Israel) is at best one of many opinions. This is backed by every source I've seen here on Wikipedia, even those not favorable to Israel (where it's mentioned of course). There were obviously multiple competing claims to the same land as you said (and indeed as happened in the American War of Independence), but this in itself does not amount to competing claims for independence. —Ynhockey (Talk) 11:11, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
- These are elementary facts, Ynhockey. Both Israel and Palestine had their rights to independence established by the UN resolution of 29 November 1947. Both sides thereafter fought for their respective notions of what independence meant in Palestine through to May 1948, both with Israel and the Palestinians claiming more than what the UN plan envisaged, from the outset. The Israeli title is how Israel, in terms that appeal to the dominant power, America, likes to perceive its war. That's Israeli usage, like Judea and Samaria, and as with the latter term, we should not, given our neutrality, precondition readers' perceptions by stressing language that suggests one partisan interpretation of what was going on, namely that there was just one struggle for independence, while the 'other side' was devoid of a desire for a state and simply opposed the Jews. It is factual and non-controversial that the Palestinians were fighting for their notion of a state, which, like Israel's case, was set forth in the UN plan. This is so starkly obvious I have difficulty is understanding why one can object to it. Nishidani (talk) 11:49, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
- Casting 1948 in terms of an Israeli and Palestinian side makes a disservice to history. While the Israeli side was united in its aim for independence (despite some inner factional squabbles), the Arab side was divided between multiple factions. The local Arabs were disorganized, some fought on a local level, some were pan-Arabists, and some perhaps fought for independence of an entire entity. As for the Arab states and proxies (i.e. Arab Liberation Army) - casting their intervention in terms of "Palestinian independence" is not supported by most historians. It is not that the
" the 'other side' was devoid of a desire for a state"
- the "other side" in this case was pushing for a multitude of different ends some of which conflicted with a notion of Palestinian independence.Icewhiz (talk) 11:57, 21 January 2018 (UTC)- Close to agree except for small nuances: "the Israeli side was united in its aim for independence"... You forget a word. In "war of independence", there is also "war". And the point is that if Israeli side was united in its aim for independence (ie sovereignty and self-determination rather than independence from a dictator or an occupying power...), it was as well united in its resolution of making "war"... And the war made the [potential] victim become the [factual] executioner, as in 100 % of cases. Pluto2012 (talk) 01:42, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
- Casting 1948 in terms of an Israeli and Palestinian side makes a disservice to history. While the Israeli side was united in its aim for independence (despite some inner factional squabbles), the Arab side was divided between multiple factions. The local Arabs were disorganized, some fought on a local level, some were pan-Arabists, and some perhaps fought for independence of an entire entity. As for the Arab states and proxies (i.e. Arab Liberation Army) - casting their intervention in terms of "Palestinian independence" is not supported by most historians. It is not that the
- The Israeli war of independence is a misnomer, since there was another party fighting for independence, and such a title merely orientates the reader, and editors, to outline the Israeli path to victory, and not simply describe, neutrally, the clash of two claims for national independence in Palestine, as Wikipedia protocols oblige us to. It's rather tiresome, writing Israel's history forever with an American readership in mind, so that Israel is merely doing its version of the 'American War of Independence'. It's bad enough that we have the Palestinians invariably depicted as renegade Comanches and Apaches disturbing decent folks settling the East, along the time-hallowed ways of Hollywood westerns.Nishidani (talk) 21:21, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
- There is plenty of "scholarly usage" for the title Israeli War of Independence, but since our main aim was to strike-up an agreeable chord whereby the article is immediately understood for what it is, we suggested # 2, which still seems to be the majority view (consensus). All those suggesting # 2 will disagree with your view of infringement of WP:OR. The title has nothing to do with "original research," but rather a simpler title for a well-known conflict, to which no one is in disagreement. My real area of concern, however, is not with the title, but with maintaining two separate articles describing basically the same conflict.Davidbena (talk) 21:11, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
- There's is nothing 'absurd' about insisting on our adoption of what is the most common and current scholarly usage for describing places and periods. Pluto provided evidence. Going beyond the evidence to invent names that don't reflect scholarly usage is WP:OR.Nishidani (talk) 08:49, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
- A "Civil War" is NOT the same as the Arab-Israeli War over the control of Palestine, with external military forces entering into the conflict. The two articles are dealing with the very same topic, as any person can see. There is no such thing as "Original Research" to suggest a new title. The suggestion is at best absurd!Davidbena (talk) 20:29, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
- What has that blather got to do with the price of fish? (the POVs implicit in titles). Nishidani (talk) 12:06, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
- A mere explanation as to why there are more English book titles with "Israeli war of Independence" as opposed to "1948 Palestine war".Icewhiz (talk) 13:03, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
- That is not what any competent observer would call an 'explanation'. I might just as well blather back about (a) the Jordanian-Israeli entente to deprive Palestinians of autonomy in 1947, or of Yigal Yadin's operation, underway since summer 1947, to decapitate the Palestinian leadership by assassinating its command structure, and thus depriving the latter, at the crucial time, of a unified and coordinated approach to the coming war, in the best traditions of divide et impera. But that too is irrelevant. The point is, our most neutral historian, perhaps the major contemporary historian of the I/P conlict, Henry Laurens, who has no ethnic card to play for one side or another, simply terms it la guerre civile palestinienne, which is as neutral as you can get. Nishidani (talk) 13:45, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
- There may well be more books titled "1948 Arab-Israeli War" than "1948 Palestine War". But these books (if they were written by historian which is not always the case) state the war started on 15 May, "just after the independence of the young State when 7(*) Arab armies invaded it"... This article start reporting the events 6 months sooner, as do all contemporary historians who deal with that (global war) and talk about the 1948 War in Palestine. Pluto2012 (talk) 17:13, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
- One indication of Henry Laurens being "our most neutral historian" is the fact that the France-Palestine Friendship Association awarded him the Palestine Prize for his work [1]. I'm sure they give the prize only to the most neutral of the neutral historians. What a joke. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 03:23, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
- That is not what any competent observer would call an 'explanation'. I might just as well blather back about (a) the Jordanian-Israeli entente to deprive Palestinians of autonomy in 1947, or of Yigal Yadin's operation, underway since summer 1947, to decapitate the Palestinian leadership by assassinating its command structure, and thus depriving the latter, at the crucial time, of a unified and coordinated approach to the coming war, in the best traditions of divide et impera. But that too is irrelevant. The point is, our most neutral historian, perhaps the major contemporary historian of the I/P conlict, Henry Laurens, who has no ethnic card to play for one side or another, simply terms it la guerre civile palestinienne, which is as neutral as you can get. Nishidani (talk) 13:45, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
- A mere explanation as to why there are more English book titles with "Israeli war of Independence" as opposed to "1948 Palestine war".Icewhiz (talk) 13:03, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
- What has that blather got to do with the price of fish? (the POVs implicit in titles). Nishidani (talk) 12:06, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
@Ynhockey and Icewhiz: can you tell me who you perceive the 1948 Israelis were fighting for “independence” from? The British had already given up their claim, such that the Israeli Declaration of Independence was actually about establishment. Onceinawhile (talk) 17:34, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
- What I think matters little, COMMONNAME matters more. But specifically independence from the British Mandate whose retreat was far from certain despite the November 1947 decision (and events leading to it), including securing handover of territory as they were leaving. And subsequently beating back the Arab League who were attempting to foil the independence of Israel by invading on the day the mandate ended. We can list many "countries" whose declared existence spanned a few days, weeks, or months and who were crushed by external forces - Israel (in very tenous borders) was perhaps de jure independent in May 1948, however this was not secured until the invading armoes were beaten back. The declaration of independence was a piece of papaer and a speech (as was 1776, October 1917, and any number of similar declarations through the ages) - actuallly securing independence required beating back opposing forces) Icewhiz (talk) 18:44, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
- S top talking off the top of your head ('retreat far from certain' etc-.etc.etc). Israel had a UN backed guarantee of independence when the mandate expired, something which in the circumstances of the immediate post-war period, had extremely powerful international backing. On May 1948, when independence was declared, the Palmach and Haganah were present all over the place, way beyond the frontiers the UN defined, some units even in Lebanon. So both the Arab League entry and Israel's entry were to contest land assigned to either party. The rest is a fairy tale.Nishidani (talk) 19:44, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
- UN backed declarations are of little importance on the ground. In November 1947 and in May 1948 the existence of Israel was far from certain.Icewhiz (talk) 20:01, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
- You haven’t read the research then. The two main Arab armies - Jordanian and Egyptian - were both financed by Britain, and tacit understandings are known to have existed as to the extent of the conflict. Now we’re 70 years on, surely it’s time to face reality. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:39, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
- That's a complex stuff and talking about what didn't happen is some sort of alternative history. If Israel had not organized herself to prepare the civil and then the conventional wars (with massive circonscription and the different deals to bring weapons despite the embargos) she would have lost the 2nd one. But Egyptians would not have intervened if Jordans would not have tried to capture the country and if Yishuv had not crushed Arab Palestinian forces in April... More, the Arab armies would (probably) have won the war if their government had decided to participate to it sooner (eg in December) and if they had organised themselves (and collaborated). So what was sure at that time ???
- But it was clearly not a war of independence from the British and historians do not describe the events as if they were only a "war of independence": Israel get rid of the Arab Palestinians and conquered Palestine as it was planned if the opportunity was given even if not really expected.... It was a war, not a neighbours's dispute. Pluto2012 (talk) 01:06, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
- "[The fact it was a war of independence] is backed by every source I've seen here on Wikipedia, even those not favorable to Israel (where it's mentioned of course)." -> There are no source that would be "not favorable to Israel" as if historians had agendas. You should once for all remove this axiom from you head. And of course it was not just a war of independence for Israel, as most sources that could be seen here on Wikipedia explain ! Pluto2012 (talk) 01:25, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
- The truth of the matter is that both sides were fighting for their independence, AND for the control of Palestine. Prior to 1948, the country had been governed by a host of colonial powers: the British > the Ottoman Turks > the Mamluks > the Ayubbids (of Egypt) > the Seljuk Turks > the Egyptian Fatimids, etc. etc.Davidbena (talk) 02:37, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
- "[The fact it was a war of independence] is backed by every source I've seen here on Wikipedia, even those not favorable to Israel (where it's mentioned of course)." -> There are no source that would be "not favorable to Israel" as if historians had agendas. You should once for all remove this axiom from you head. And of course it was not just a war of independence for Israel, as most sources that could be seen here on Wikipedia explain ! Pluto2012 (talk) 01:25, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
- You haven’t read the research then. The two main Arab armies - Jordanian and Egyptian - were both financed by Britain, and tacit understandings are known to have existed as to the extent of the conflict. Now we’re 70 years on, surely it’s time to face reality. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:39, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
- UN backed declarations are of little importance on the ground. In November 1947 and in May 1948 the existence of Israel was far from certain.Icewhiz (talk) 20:01, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
- S top talking off the top of your head ('retreat far from certain' etc-.etc.etc). Israel had a UN backed guarantee of independence when the mandate expired, something which in the circumstances of the immediate post-war period, had extremely powerful international backing. On May 1948, when independence was declared, the Palmach and Haganah were present all over the place, way beyond the frontiers the UN defined, some units even in Lebanon. So both the Arab League entry and Israel's entry were to contest land assigned to either party. The rest is a fairy tale.Nishidani (talk) 19:44, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
- Wars of independence aren't fought in order to declare independence from a previous ruling country (anyone can do that), but to keep another country from taking that independence. Usually these two are the same country, but not always, like in this case. Israel became independent from the British, but was fighting for independence against the Arabs, who explicitly denied said independence and invaded with the explicit goal of ending it. A similar situation almost happened with the Kurds, where they would get independence from Iraq or Syria (or both), but their war of independence could be against Turkey. I'm sure you are aware of these facts though. —Ynhockey (Talk) 11:12, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
wars of independence (are) fought . .to keep another country from taking that independence.'
- Ynhockey. By that formulation you place yourself with those who would limit Israel's 'war of independence' to May 1948-1949. By the same token, you imply that the civil war from December 47 to that declaration was equally a Palestinian war of independence. The Arab reaction had an obvious logic: a people with 6% of land title and 30% of the population were given sovereignty over 56% of the land by Western imperial fiat against the united consensus of all regional powers, and their battle was based on the assumption that Palestine, exited the British, was and should remain an Muslim-majority country, as it had been for 1,200 odd years. The 'war of independence' analogy with America does have a cogency, since the American war of independence was effectively one that ensured the preservation of slavery, since the British offered the Afro-American population liberty, and it took 2 centuries to undo that ethnic discrimination, just as Israel's independence ensured Palestinian dispossession and politicide, which it will take at least a century to undo. Only in that regard does the analogy apply.Nishidani (talk) 11:28, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
- Nishidani, can you please try writing that again? It's extraordinarily hard to make any sense of. Some portions of your sentences are literally incomprehensible. (e.g. "by Western imperial fiat against the united consensus of all regional powers, and their battle was based on the assumption that Palestine, exited the British, was and should remain an Muslim-majority country, as it had been for 1,200 odd years.") ZinedineZidane98 (talk) 13:20, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
- Option 2 seems the most neutral while keeping what is obviously the most common name and search ("Arab-Israeli war"). No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 03:23, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
- Option 2 or Option 1. "Israeli War of Independence" is the common name and in line with the standard naming convention outlined at Wars of Independence. This term has implicit only that Israel is an independent state, and does not imply Israeli independence is a good thing. The appropriate naming conventions are demonstrated at Irish War of Independence: "The Irish War of Independence (Irish: Cogadh na Saoirse) or Anglo-Irish War was a guerrilla war fought from 1919 to 1921 between the Irish Republican Army (IRA, the army of the Irish Republic) and the British security forces in Ireland." That, said, "First Arab-Israeli War" is also in use and more correct than the current name. It works well with the names Second Arab-Israeli War and Third Arab-Israeli War which are alternate names on wikipedia for the Suez Crisis and Six Day War, respectively. Zekelayla (talk) 05:46, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
- Option 2 Is the most WP:COMMONNAME--Shrike (talk) 08:30, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
- Comment: Users Huldra, Zero0000 Nishidani have called to stick with the current name, based on the argument presented by Pluto2012. Zero0000 summed the claim by saying that "
"Palestine war" is a common name used by a wide variety of historians from right to left
". Pluto0000 has listed eight books from a wide range of scholars to support the notion (retrieved from the article's "further reading" section), but it seems to me the list doesn't really support this notion. Only two out of the eight use the term "Palestine War": Walid Khalidi's "Selected Documents on the 1948 Palestine War" and Efraim Karsh's The Arab-Israeli Conflict: The Palestine War 1948. These two are strong examples, as the two are respected scholars from both sides, but the six other examples do not help the notion. Yoav Gelber's Palestine 1948 is not an example. He does not call it the "1948 Palestine War" or "Palestine War". The book's page in its publisher's website refers to the war as Jewish–Palestinian war from December 1947 to mid-May 1948 and the consecutive Israeli–Arab war. Saleh Abdel Jawad's The Arab and Palestinian Narratives of the 1948 War calls it the "1948 War", not the "1948 Palestine War". Bonny Morris' book's full name is actually Option 2: 1948: The First Arab-Israeli War". Eugene Rogan & Avi Shlaim's The War for Palestine — Rewriting the history of 1948 is just like the Yoav Gelber example, not a name for the war. It is like calling World War II "the war for Europe", which is a poetic title for a book, not a proper historeographic name for a war. The same goes again for War in Palestine, 1948 by David Tal and Henry Laurens example.
- So I can say clrealy that Pluto's argument that "Palestine War" is the proper name for the article based on sources is not supported by the sources he provided.
- In that spirit, here is an honest historeogprahical evidence for each option:
- First Arab Israeli War
- Benny Morris: 1948: A History of The First Arab-Israeli War
- Dan Kurzman: Genesis 1948: The First Arab-Israeli War"
- Ilan Pappe: The Making of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 1947-1951, p.ix: "Finally, a note on the choice of an adequate name for the first Arab–Israeli war. Arabs and Jews describe the same event in contradictory ways...I have chosen to call the war by its calendar name - the war of 1948" - from
- Michael R. Fischbach: Records of Dispossession: Palestinian Refugee Property and the Arab-Israeli Conflict, p.xxi "in the aftermath of the first Arab–Israeli war of 1948..."
- Kirsten E. Schulze: The Arab-Israeli Conflict p.v: "The first Arab–Israeli War"
- Ian J. Bickerton: The Arab-Israeli Conflict: A History, p.67: "THE FIRST ARAB ISRAELI WAR"
- Bernard Reich: An historical encyclopedia of the Arab-Israeli conflict, from book's description: "...the Palestine partition plan in November 1947, the first Arab-Israeli War up to the Israel-PLO Declaration of Principles and subsequent agreements..."
- Avi Shlaim & William Roger Louis: The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences p.4: "The main losers of the first Arab–Israeli war were the Palestinians".
- Laura Zittrain Eisenberg & Neil Caplan: Negotiating Arab-Israeli Peace, Second Edition: Patterns, Problems, Possibilities, p.16: "...the first Arab–Israeli war ended in early 1949..."
- Hemda Ben-Yehuda, Shmuel Sandler: Arab-Israeli Conflict Transformed, The: Fifty Years of Interstate and Ethnic Crisis, p.69: "Two of these crises were full scale wars cases——1947–1949 first Arab–Israeli war..."
- 1948 Arab–Israeli War
- Moshe Naor: Social Mobilization in the Arab/Israeli War of 1948: On the Israeli Home Front
- Slade A. Brewer: The 1948 Arab-Israeli War
- Joshua Landis & Michael Doran The Arab-Israeli War Of 1948: Inter-Arab Rivalry and the Making of the Middle Eastern State System
- Maʻn Abū Nūwār: The Jordanian-Israeli War, 1948-1951: A History of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. From book's description: "Special reference is made to the Arab-Israeli War of 1948 and its consequences".
- Clark Dumont Neher: The Role of the United Nations Mediator in the Arab-Israeli War of 1948
- David Tal: The Forgotten War: Jewish–Palestinian strife in Mandatory Palestine, December 1947–May 1948 p.3: "...the historiography of the 1948 Arab–Israeli war..."
- 1948 Palestine War
- Efraim Karsh: The Arab-Israeli Conflict: The Palestine War 1948
- 50minutes: The 1948 Palestine War: The Launch of Conflict in the Middle East
- Walid Khalidi: Selected Documents on the 1948 Palestine War
- Gabriel G Tabarani: Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: From Balfour Promise to Bush Declaration: THE COMPLICATIONS AND THE ROAD FOR A LASTING PEACE. p.53: "...the 1948 Palestine War entered a second phase..."
- Nancy Gallagher: Quakers in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: The Dilemmas of NGO Humanitarian Activism p.29: "The 1948 Palestine War"
- 1948 War
- Avraham Sela & Alon Kadish: The War of 1948: Representations of Israeli and Palestinian Memories and Narratives
- Ilan Pappe: The Making of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 1947-1951, p.ix: "Finally, a note on the choice of an adequate name for the first Arab–Israeli war. Arabs and Jews describe the same event in contradictory ways...I have chosen to call the war by its calendar name - the war of 1948"
- David Tal: War in Palestine, 1948: Israeli and Arab Strategy and Diplomacy p.21: "The 1948 War was over Palestine..."
- Motti Golani & Adel Manna: Two Sides of the Coin: Independence and Nakba 1948. Two Narratives of the 1948 War and Its Outcome [English-Hebrew Edition], p.83: "...in the context of the 1948 war"
- Shlomo Aloni: Israeli Air Force Operations in the 1948 War: Israeli Winter Offensive Operation HOREV, 22 December 1948 - 7 January 1948
- David Tal: The Forgotten War: Jewish–Palestinian strife in Mandatory Palestine, December 1947–May 1948 p.3: "...the actual state of research on the 1948 war..."
- Elisha Efrat: Jerusalem: Partition Plans for a Holy City. p.239: "After the 1948 war the city was partitioned..."
- There are probably much more results for "1948 war" but I am spending my time home already on this. I think the point is clear, "1948 Palestin War" is not the most common name. Even if I kept searching for sources, still the there would be more results for "1948 Arab–Israeli War" and "First Arab–Israeli War" together, and since they are simmilar, I think they prevail.
- I will again explain my reason to support "1948 Arab–Israeli War" for the entire war. It is better than "First Arab–Israeli War" in my opinion because it contains the 1948 element. I don't see a real reason to add "1947" and "1949" to the title. Just like the Hundred Years' war was actually 116 years, the 1948 war lasted one month in 1947 and between one to three months in 1949, the absolute majority of the events took place in 1948.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 13:41, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
A chart showing the real issue with the page titles
1948 Palestine war 13,600 views in 30 days The story told by all scholars | |||||||||||||||||
1947–48 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine 8,400 views in 30 days The first phase | 1948 Arab–Israeli War 67,000 views in 30 days The second phase | ||||||||||||||||
The page view stats shown in this chart illustrate the real problem with the article titles – that most readers don’t see the nuanced difference we are discussing between the titles 1948 Palestine War and 1948 Arab-Israeli War. As a result, most traffic goes to the most well-known title, despite it being only half the story and not the main / top-level article.
Onceinawhile (talk) 22:00, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
- I agree with your comment.
- What we could do then is the following :
- 1948 Arab-Israeli War redirected to 1948 Palestine War
- the content of 1948 Arab-Israeli War renamed in 1948-1949 Arab-Israeli War
- Pluto2012 (talk) 05:38, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
- That seems like a good solution. Onceinawhile (talk) 18:20, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
- What about organizing a move debate on 1948 Arab-Israeli War ? Pluto2012 (talk) 06:06, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
- This proposed solution is bad, since it replaces the subtle distinction between 1948 Arab-Israeli War and 1948 Palestine War with an even subtler (and less justifiable) distinction between 1948 Arab-Israeli War and 1948-49 Arab-Israeli War Zekelayla (talk) 05:45, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
- That seems like a good solution. Onceinawhile (talk) 18:20, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
- Something with "Arab-Israeli War" in the title should be the top article since that's obviously the most common name and most common search. See above. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 03:25, 22 January 2018 (UTC)