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:The source doesn’t call the studies racist, nor does it call them pseudoscientific. The phrase “Jewish Scientific Racism”, which seems to have been invented in this article, sounds eerily similar to the Nazi term “Jewish physics”. I will undo my revert now per 1RR, but will remove it again once ruled permit. [[User:Drsmoo|Drsmoo]] ([[User talk:Drsmoo|talk]]) 23:32, 8 July 2023 (UTC) |
:The source doesn’t call the studies racist, nor does it call them pseudoscientific. The phrase “Jewish Scientific Racism”, which seems to have been invented in this article, sounds eerily similar to the Nazi term “Jewish physics”. I will undo my revert now per 1RR, but will remove it again once ruled permit. [[User:Drsmoo|Drsmoo]] ([[User talk:Drsmoo|talk]]) 23:32, 8 July 2023 (UTC) |
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::Shall we just change "scientific racism" to "race science" then? [[User:Onceinawhile|Onceinawhile]] ([[User talk:Onceinawhile|talk]]) 23:44, 8 July 2023 (UTC) |
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== Ruppin == |
== Ruppin == |
Revision as of 23:44, 8 July 2023
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Possible sources
MIT Press 2021 ISBN 10:0262542943 Genomic Citizenship: The Molecularization of Identity in the Contemporary Middle East McGonigle, Ian Ch 2 The “nature” of Israeli citizenship
"Population analysis by geneticists has led to an unresolved debate over Jewish origins (Abu El-Haj 2012; Elhaik 2012; Kohler 2014). Geneticists have begun to describe the genetic basis for common ancestry of the whole of the Jewish population (Behar et al. 2010), even though the historical claims that are entangled with these scientific studies are still contested. One of the most contentious claims made is that European Jews are descended from converts to Judaism from the Khazar Empire, which covered much of Eastern Europe during the second half of the first century CE (Koestler 1976; Sand 2009; Wheelwright 2013). Some rabbis and several population geneticists instead claim that there is a direct line of descent connecting most European Jews to the biblical land of Israel (Sand 2009).2 But Israeli historian Shlomo Sand argues, “The Jews have always comprised significant religious communities that appeared and settled in various parts of the world, rather than an ethnos that shared a single origin and wandered in a permanent exile” (2009, 22) Selfstudier (talk) 17:52, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
Title
Maybe Zionism and Jewish genetics? Selfstudier (talk) 18:10, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- The word "race" in the title gives a wider scope - population genetics in this way didn't begin until after Watson and Crick in the 50s. Prior to the 1940s the Zionist discourse of this nature was about race. Onceinawhile (talk) 19:20, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
NPOV Issues
This article has multiple NPOV issues:
- It largely ignores the widely held conventional view, which is that the majority of Jewish ethnic groups have common ancestry from the ancient Middle East. This view is currently supported by the majority of genetic studies, as well as recent research linking the major Jewish groups to ancient Canaanite DNA and other modern Levantine populations.
- It uses a questionable 1974 article (Haddad, Hassan S. [in Arabic] (1974). "The Biblical Bases of Zionist Colonialism". Journal of Palestine Studies. [University of California Press, Institute for Palestine Studies]. 3 (4): 98-99) whose relevance for the topic, reliability and neutrality are currently being discussed on another article, Zionism, (see Talk:Zionism#Question) after the same editor added it there and was immediately challenged; Here, it is added without offering any opposing viewpoints, ignoring the issues brought up in the aforementioned discussion. Tombah (talk) 19:02, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks Tombah. On 1., the article says "It is likely that many modern Jews have at least one ancestral line from Levant". What more do you want?
- On 2. if you think the article is "questionable" I suggest you raise it at RSN. On the other talk discussion you are referring to, it was established that Haddad was a distinguished professor at Saint Xavier University. Anyway, it is being used in a different way here, so if you wish to oppose its use here you will need to explain. Onceinawhile (talk) 19:17, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- For point #1, no sources have been presented establishing this claim of a "widely held conventional view", while, on the contrary, the page contains several sources that establish quite a separate and contrasting narrative. If there is an alternative perspective, source it. In the discussion of Haddad, that material is unbalanced likewise simply calls for other sources to be added to balance it. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:26, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
Recent revert
@Drsmoo: please explain this revert, with your edit comment "Not in source, the phrase “Jewish scientific racism” could be construed as antisemitic":
- OLD TEXT: "The connection between Zionism and early 20th century Jewish scientific racism and, since the 1950s, genetic science, has been widely studied by historians and anthropologists."
- Drsmoo TEXT: "The connection between Zionism and early 20th century genetic science, has been widely studied by historians and anthropologists."
- ORIGINAL SOURCE QUOTE: "Historians and anthropologists have critically examined how the structuring assumptions of Jewish race science in early-twentieth-century Europe and North America, and their relationship to Zionist nationalism, reverberate within the genetic studies of Jewish populations by Israeli scientists from the 1950s to the present."
Your edit changed the meaning - there was no "early 20th century genetic science" relating to this topic. Early 20th century race science is one topic, and genetic studies from the 1950s to the present, is another.
And our article scientific racism states that the term "race science" (used in the original source above) is a synonym used by its proponents. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:55, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- The source doesn’t call the studies racist, nor does it call them pseudoscientific. The phrase “Jewish Scientific Racism”, which seems to have been invented in this article, sounds eerily similar to the Nazi term “Jewish physics”. I will undo my revert now per 1RR, but will remove it again once ruled permit. Drsmoo (talk) 23:32, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
- Shall we just change "scientific racism" to "race science" then? Onceinawhile (talk) 23:44, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
Ruppin
- There are quite a number of views that emphasized Jews as a mixed 'race'. Herzl proposed that. See the Mauschel page.
- A key thinker here was Arthur Ruppin, whose views I've sketched out here.