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::Zjarri, you are again, and again just repeating same words... We all must cooperate and compromise somehow. As nothing else helped, [[WP:AN]] may.... Unfortunately... I will also ask for third opinion. --<span style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">[[User:WhiteWriter |WhiteWriter ]]<sup>[[User talk:WhiteWriter |speaks]]</sup></span> 12:50, 29 May 2011 (UTC) |
::Zjarri, you are again, and again just repeating same words... We all must cooperate and compromise somehow. As nothing else helped, [[WP:AN]] may.... Unfortunately... I will also ask for third opinion. --<span style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">[[User:WhiteWriter |WhiteWriter ]]<sup>[[User talk:WhiteWriter |speaks]]</sup></span> 12:50, 29 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:::WW you started an AN discussion and asked for admin ''reaction'', although you're the only user, who has been reverting that section[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vojsava_Tripalda&diff=430685952&oldid=430667166][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vojsava_Tripalda&diff=431069903&oldid=430802608][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vojsava_Tripalda&diff=431153756&oldid=431139815], has been accusing other users of vandalism[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Vinie007&diff=prev&oldid=431153971] when they revert him and then starting ''last warning'' sections on their talkpages. You were reverting with edit summaries saying that the sources are unreliable, but when asked about that you were immediately denying it [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Vojsava_Tripalda&diff=prev&oldid=431067314]. I think that we should stick to the RSNs and the latest opinion about the inclusion of all views and as for compromise for the last couple of days you've been asked to propose a rewording based on current sources, if you disagree with the present version.--<span style="background-color: maroon; color: white">[[User:ZjarriRrethues|<font color="white">'''— ''ZjarriRrethues'' —'''</font>]]</span> <sup>[[User_talk:ZjarriRrethues|talk]]</sup> 13:23, 29 May 2011 (UTC) |
:::WW you started an AN discussion and asked for admin ''reaction'', although you're the only user, who has been reverting that section[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vojsava_Tripalda&diff=430685952&oldid=430667166][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vojsava_Tripalda&diff=431069903&oldid=430802608][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vojsava_Tripalda&diff=431153756&oldid=431139815], has been accusing other users of vandalism[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Vinie007&diff=prev&oldid=431153971] when they revert him and then starting ''last warning'' sections on their talkpages. You were reverting with edit summaries saying that the sources are unreliable, but when asked about that you were immediately denying it [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Vojsava_Tripalda&diff=prev&oldid=431067314]. I think that we should stick to the RSNs and the latest opinion about the inclusion of all views and as for compromise for the last couple of days you've been asked to propose a rewording based on current sources, if you disagree with the present version.--<span style="background-color: maroon; color: white">[[User:ZjarriRrethues|<font color="white">'''— ''ZjarriRrethues'' —'''</font>]]</span> <sup>[[User_talk:ZjarriRrethues|talk]]</sup> 13:23, 29 May 2011 (UTC) |
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::::As you always do, you misinterpreted everything you wrote. I am the only user who tried to put article in the status quo version until we agree, while the rest just quit! [[Wikipedia:BATTLE|Trenching fight]] is too much for most users. How can you present this is such a way? [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vojsava_Tripalda&action=historysubmit&diff=431164283&oldid=431153756 Blind trolling revert], without talk page intro, with same edit summary, is school example of disruptive editing, trolling, and vandalism. Last warning is there as user was ALREADY warned by other users that such behavior is unacceptable. Zjarri, add your proposition of the section in question, and we will talk about it. I '''already proposed my version above'''! As you dont understood, i will write yet again. <big>'''I dont dispute sources, but sources usage in such a way.'''</big> You incorrectly quoted and presented sources in this article! We don't have personal opinion of neither Noli, nor Harry Hodgkinson nor David Abulafia, but only Muzaka, and all of them just mention Muzaka as source! "Musachi tells us.." That is not personal opinion. Do you understand now what we are asking? After sixth post? --<span style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">[[User:WhiteWriter |WhiteWriter ]]<sup>[[User talk:WhiteWriter |speaks]]</sup></span> 14:38, 29 May 2011 (UTC) |
Revision as of 14:38, 29 May 2011
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Serbian origin
After such a marvelous addition of references and sources, and after i saw this amassing list by User:Antidiskriminator, it is quite clear to me that only the same or bigger amount of better sources claiming opposite may raise a question about this info. It looks like Voisava really, out of question, was of Serbian origin. --WhiteWriter speaks 16:49, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
- They have all been refuted even by admins and btw regarding The Pseudo Tsar Stephen the Small and other similar sources you should read WP:RS.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:45, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
- Can you please show me where this is stated? The sources are more than enough, I don't understand why you are so active in erasing these historical facts, If the page is reverted once more, I will call an Administrator to take a look at the article and its sources. You are free to add your thoughts to the talk page, NOT by reverting added material in the article. --Zoupan (talk) 16:39, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
- Check the Skanderbeg archives and please read WP:OR because when Barleti doesn't use the word Serb and you attribute it to him it's a violation of that policy. Btw why did you start the article on Andrea Gropa and presented him as a Serbian nobleman?--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:11, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
- As we asked you already numerous times for a link where all of these sources have been rejected, and you didn't show us, i will revert this. It is not OR, per my personal opinion, and instead i find it just blind revert. Therefor, you (or Aigest (talk · contribs)) are publicly invited to list diffs where all of these sources are rejected. I know that 16 sources we have in here are worth mentioning, and you CANNOT just remove them, as that may be (and probably is) POV pushing. Only possible way for us to continue discussion is:
- 1. You show us diffs where all 16 sources was rejected. Diffs, not somewhere in Skanderbeg archive, (which i know very well, btw). Diffs, from RS noticeboard, where several editors discarded all 16 of them.
- 2. Bringing good online sources that we can check, with citation, and all other related data, as it is apparently that trusting on this subject is not wise anymore. (Fan Noli, 14th Prime Minister of Albania is not RS on this question, that is quite obvious. Also, "Fan Noli p. 189, note 33."? Where, when, what? Without link, or anything. That is good source? No, its not! :) Also, sources presented by IP are easy to check and see, and something like that would be wise to introduce. If you include source, you should now something from that source, obviously. So, tell us what is source about, and write important things. Aigest, as i understood, you write on edit summary that you have read all of her's biographers (Barletius, Francus, Muzaka and later Noli, Hodgkinson, Frasheri), as you inform us to read it. Please, post links with that info, or anything that we can see.
- After this, we will see. But without this, it is pointless to discuss. Both sides should bring sources, that are useful, and trustful. As for now, only one side did that. I hope that we will find some useful solution to this question, and i invite all to discuss without nationalistic pretensions, in the same way as we did in Kosovo talk. Here, all we need are sources. But good one, and not 14th Prime Minister of Albania. :) :) --WhiteWriter speaks 16:35, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
- WW 19th century literature isn't reliable, so please read WP:RS. The sources have been reviewed many times and even when another one came up it was refuted [1] and the discussion continued to the exact location of her birth without the previous POV. Btw Noli was a Harvard graduate scholar, who also was a revolutionary that became Albania's prime minister for some months. His work has been labeled as the most comprehensive biography in English of Gjergj Kastrioti.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:38, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
- 19th century literature? What exactly, sorry... Please, point that, i really don't know what are you questioning. :) And if that is only one, we will see. That link you send me talks about the source that is, as far as i can see, not included in this article, so... Also, i didn't question Noli's competence, but his neutrality. But, anyway, we use that source in this version of article, if you even bothered to read the version you reverted... :) Anyway, i still wait to see that diffs where all of those sources are discarded, if that diff even exist. If not, i would ask all of you to stop reverting, and TALK HERE FIRST. There is not even single reason for this version to be reverted, as i see now... Talk to me, with arguments, and sources, and we will agree. That is the only possible way. --WhiteWriter speaks 20:57, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
- It's the most comprehensive biography in English i.e it's RS. Btw all the 19th century sources have been refuted, so unless you can bring RS ones without the SYNTH that is attributed to many of them you should stop reverting.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:02, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
- I talked to Zjarri over IRC, and we come to some interesting conclusions, but we will wait him to post explanation for all sources, in the way he did over IRC, as we didn't conclude anything, while agreed to disagree! :) Then we will comment, source by source. --WhiteWriter speaks 21:39, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
- WhiteWriter, the sources used in the article have already been submitted to the Reliable Sources Notice Board and were not deemed reliable for this topic. [2]--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 22:42, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
- These sources have been refuted so many times and the people, who add them don't even read those sources, some of which mention nothing about Voisava[3]. The rest have been refuted on other discussions and WP:RS.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 08:30, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- I added RfC. In the link that Gaius Claudius presented, only few of the sources are questioned, and not the majority. Also, we MUST write that hers origin is at least disputed, and that she may be Serbian quite easy! Also, if he and Skanderbeg had nothing with Serbs, why would he then give villages and gifts to the Serbian Hilandar? I am afraid that only real question here is that Skanderbeg, Albanian hero, may have Serbian mother. But back then, people was not so overwhelmed with nationalistic pretensions, so lets create neutral encyclopedia, by presenting ALL related data, and not just one sided POV. --WhiteWriter speaks 12:14, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- WW please read WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. Sources 17,18,19,20 say nothing about Skanderbeg's mother i.e WP:SYNTH. Source one apart from being outdated is just reviewing and refuting another author i.e not WP:RS(also regarding Hilandar the tower of the Kastrioti family is called Arbanaski pirg, so the verdict is on that). Outdated tertiary sources or sources that say reportedly etc. can't be used and aren't RS. Btw per BRD you should wait for the RfC to add your view and not edit-war to keep your version.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 12:49, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, WW's OR is quite easily refutable. Reposh Kastrioti's grave in Hilandar says dux Illyricus, meaning Albanian Duke. Furthermore, the area in which he is buried is called Arbanashki pirg, meaning Albanian narthex. It is well known that many Albanians converted to Serbian Orthodoxy during Tsar Dushan's rule, especially in Dibra.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 14:53, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, WW's OR is quite easily refutable. Reposh Kastrioti's grave in Hilandar says dux Illyricus, meaning Albanian Duke. Furthermore, the area in which he is buried is called Arbanashki pirg, meaning Albanian narthex. It is well known that many Albanians converted to Serbian Orthodoxy during Tsar Dushan's rule, especially in Dibra.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 14:53, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- WW please read WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. Sources 17,18,19,20 say nothing about Skanderbeg's mother i.e WP:SYNTH. Source one apart from being outdated is just reviewing and refuting another author i.e not WP:RS(also regarding Hilandar the tower of the Kastrioti family is called Arbanaski pirg, so the verdict is on that). Outdated tertiary sources or sources that say reportedly etc. can't be used and aren't RS. Btw per BRD you should wait for the RfC to add your view and not edit-war to keep your version.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 12:49, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- I added RfC. In the link that Gaius Claudius presented, only few of the sources are questioned, and not the majority. Also, we MUST write that hers origin is at least disputed, and that she may be Serbian quite easy! Also, if he and Skanderbeg had nothing with Serbs, why would he then give villages and gifts to the Serbian Hilandar? I am afraid that only real question here is that Skanderbeg, Albanian hero, may have Serbian mother. But back then, people was not so overwhelmed with nationalistic pretensions, so lets create neutral encyclopedia, by presenting ALL related data, and not just one sided POV. --WhiteWriter speaks 12:14, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- These sources have been refuted so many times and the people, who add them don't even read those sources, some of which mention nothing about Voisava[3]. The rest have been refuted on other discussions and WP:RS.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 08:30, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- WhiteWriter, the sources used in the article have already been submitted to the Reliable Sources Notice Board and were not deemed reliable for this topic. [2]--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 22:42, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
- I talked to Zjarri over IRC, and we come to some interesting conclusions, but we will wait him to post explanation for all sources, in the way he did over IRC, as we didn't conclude anything, while agreed to disagree! :) Then we will comment, source by source. --WhiteWriter speaks 21:39, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
- It's the most comprehensive biography in English i.e it's RS. Btw all the 19th century sources have been refuted, so unless you can bring RS ones without the SYNTH that is attributed to many of them you should stop reverting.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:02, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
- 19th century literature? What exactly, sorry... Please, point that, i really don't know what are you questioning. :) And if that is only one, we will see. That link you send me talks about the source that is, as far as i can see, not included in this article, so... Also, i didn't question Noli's competence, but his neutrality. But, anyway, we use that source in this version of article, if you even bothered to read the version you reverted... :) Anyway, i still wait to see that diffs where all of those sources are discarded, if that diff even exist. If not, i would ask all of you to stop reverting, and TALK HERE FIRST. There is not even single reason for this version to be reverted, as i see now... Talk to me, with arguments, and sources, and we will agree. That is the only possible way. --WhiteWriter speaks 20:57, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
- WW 19th century literature isn't reliable, so please read WP:RS. The sources have been reviewed many times and even when another one came up it was refuted [1] and the discussion continued to the exact location of her birth without the previous POV. Btw Noli was a Harvard graduate scholar, who also was a revolutionary that became Albania's prime minister for some months. His work has been labeled as the most comprehensive biography in English of Gjergj Kastrioti.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:38, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
- Check the Skanderbeg archives and please read WP:OR because when Barleti doesn't use the word Serb and you attribute it to him it's a violation of that policy. Btw why did you start the article on Andrea Gropa and presented him as a Serbian nobleman?--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:11, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
- Can you please show me where this is stated? The sources are more than enough, I don't understand why you are so active in erasing these historical facts, If the page is reverted once more, I will call an Administrator to take a look at the article and its sources. You are free to add your thoughts to the talk page, NOT by reverting added material in the article. --Zoupan (talk) 16:39, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
Who said that "Illyricus" means "Albanian"? Btw, the addition that she was "possibly born in Berat" adds to our knowledge on the possible expansion of Triballians. --Euzen (talk) 10:43, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
revert
Hi, I reverted this page, because it it going in a very strong POV direction. please make it more neutral and represent all sides with citations. mike James Michael DuPont (talk) 20:11, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
Proposal
"Ethnicity of Vojsava is disputed. Some sources claim she is Slav while other sources claim she is Albanian."
By presenting the information about her ethnicity in the above way we would follow WP:NPOV and provide readers with list of sources allowing the interested readers to make their own decisions instead of misleading them. By doing this we would also prevent further edit wars and conflicts because any editor who has a source claiming she was Slav or Albanian can easily add that source in the appropriate list of sources.
Furthermore, if there is a need to explain position of sources in more details, debates about her ethnicity or events connected with it, we can create a separate article about her ethnicity and place all detailed explanations and arguments there without cluttering the main article with it. In that case ALT2 of above mentioned sentence could look like this:
"Ethnicity of Vojsava is disputed. Some sources claim she is Slav while other sources claim she is Albanian."
I think that my proposal is compromise that follows wikipedia NPOV policy without discrediting any of the POVs.
If there is general consensus about my proposal, we can organize a !voting. We could invite interested editors and members of the related wikiprojects to participate in !voting. At the end of the !voting, we would ask neutral third party (admininstrators) to close the !voting, unlock the article and, in case this proposal is supported, add above mentione sentence to the text of the article with creating suitable FAQ section on the talk page.
Comments are welcomed. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:15, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
Comments about proposal
- An admin has warned you about WP:IDHT and another one suggested that you edit other subjects.. An admin, a reviewer and even a RS discussion didn't support any of them i.e please read WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. Btw Wikipedia is not a democracy.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 08:24, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- Please follow the WP:No personal attacks and "Comment on content (proposal), not on the contributor (me)." You were asked many times by other users (diff, diff, diff and diff) to provide links which support your claims. Another user already wrote "As we asked you already numerous times for a link where all of these sources have been rejected, and you didn't show us..." Please provide requested diffs which support your claims because otherwise someone (not me) could see your comments on this talk page as tendentious editing. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:19, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- You were a participant of those discussions and even the latest of your sources was refuted [4].--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:04, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- Please follow the WP:No personal attacks and "Comment on content (proposal), not on the contributor (me)." You were asked many times by other users (diff, diff, diff and diff) to provide links which support your claims. Another user already wrote "As we asked you already numerous times for a link where all of these sources have been rejected, and you didn't show us..." Please provide requested diffs which support your claims because otherwise someone (not me) could see your comments on this talk page as tendentious editing. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:19, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
Closing my proposal: Lists of sources about ethnicity claims
My proposal is not feasible because it was decided during AfD processes that stand alone articles with lists which support only certain claims are against wikipedia policies.
Therefore lists I created as stand alone articles were deleted. There were many users that participated in AfD discussion who expressed their opinion that those lists could be useful for further article development (they are both made using citation template). Therefore, I am providing below links to those lists on my userpage for informative and development purpose:
- User:Antidiskriminator/Drafts of articles/List of sources about claims that Vojsava Kastrioti was Slav
- User:Antidiskriminator/Drafts of articles/List of sources about claims that Vojsava Kastrioti was Albanian
--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:56, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Primary Sources
There are three primary sources on Scanderbeg, Dhimitër Frëngu (1443-1525), Marin Barleti (c. 1450, - c. 1520), Gjon Muzaka (? - fl. 1510). All of them were testimonies of Albanian-Ottoman wars. Two of them are first Scanderbeg biographers namely Dhimitër Frëngu with "Comentario de le cose de' Turchi, et del S. Georgio Scanderbeg, principe d' Epyro", Marin Barleti with "Historia de vita et gestis Scanderbegi Epirotarum Principis" while the third one Gjon Muzaka (his family was also linked with that of Scanderbeg and Muzaka himself fought against Ottomans) shows Albanian nobility genealogies in his work "Breve memoria de li discendenti de nostra casa Musachi" in English.
They are all mentioned in Scanderbeg biography (Noli 1947 p. 189).
"E la madre de detto Signor Scanderbeg, moglie del detto Signor Giovanni, hebbe nome Signora Voisava Tripalda e venne da bonna parte." Hopf Chroniques, p. 301. On p. 308 Musachi tells us that Viosava was Albanian from the Musachi family, Barletius, vita Book I p. 1, writes: "Uxori Voisavae nomen erat, non indignam eo viro, tum pater nobilissimus Tribalorum princeps.... Franco, chap. I, p. 2 v: "Et la matre di esso Scanderbeg, chiamata Voisava, fu figliola del signore di Pollogo, che e una parte della Macedonia et Bulgaria." According to jirecek" Polog, jetzt Tetovo, am oberen Vardar." Serben, Vol. II p. 6. see here bundled on Noli. Aigest (talk) 13:26, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
Sources on Serbian origin
Number | Author | Work Title | Quote | Link |
---|---|---|---|---|
1. | Hans Ferdinand Helmolt, Viscount James Bryce Bryce | The World's History: South-eastern and eastern Europe | Page 225: "Voisava, the Servian princess of Polog... | Link |
2. | Ephraim Chambers | Chambers's Encyclopaedia (Edinburgh) | Page 107: "his (Skanderbegs) mother being a Servian princess" | Link |
3. | Encyclopedia Britannica | Volume V24, Page 287 of the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica: "of a Servian princess named Vaisava" | Link | |
4. | Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition | Volume V24, Page 287 of the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica: "of a Servian princess named Vaisava" | Link | |
5. | Alexander W. Hidden | The Ottoman dynasty: a history of the sultans of Turkey from the earliest authentic record to the present time, with notes on the manners and customs of the people, 1912 | p. 50: "Iskender Bey was the youngest of the four sons of Duke John Castriot and Princess Voisava of Servian descent" | Link |
6. | Antonina Zhelyazkova | Albanian Identities, International Centre for Minority Studies and Intercultural Relations, 2000 | page 9. "It is a curious circumstance that Skanderbeg's mother was a Slav woman..." | Link |
7. | Walter Yust | Encyclopædia Britannica, a new survey of universal knowledge, Volume 20 | p. 756: "Voisava Tripalda, daughter of a Serbian magnate" | Link |
8. | Viscount James Bryce Bryce | The World's History: South-eastern and eastern Europe | "Voisava, daughter of the Servian lord of Polog" | Link |
9. | Patrick Hondus | Can Serbs and Albanians live together?, 2007 | "On the other hand, Skenderbeg, the legendary Albanian hero, is seemingly of an ethnically mixed background, with his mother reportedly being a Serb." | Link |
10. | Fan Stylian Noli | George Castroiti Scanderbeg (1405–1468) (International Universities Press, 1947) | Link | |
11. | The Universal magazine, Volume 4, 1805 | page 128: "She [Voisava] was daughter of the celebrated King of Triballi..." | Link | |
12. | Dialogue, Volume 5, Issues 17-20 | page 77: "It is interesting that in the Venetian sources Skanderbeg's mother referred to as "Voisava Tribalda" or "Voisava Tripalda" which actually means Voislava Serb." | Link | |
13. | Marin Barleti | Historia de vita et gestis Scanderbegi Epirotarum principis, 1508 | pp 44-45 "...uxori Voisavae nomen erat, nó indigná co uiro tum pater nobilissimus Tribalorum princeps..." | Link |
14. | Sydney Smith, Lord Francis Jeffrey Jeffrey, Macvey Napier | The Edinburgh review: or critical journal, Volume 154 | age 333 "The story of the marvelous dream by which his greatness was prefigured before his birth to his mother, the Servian Voisava... | Link |
15. | George T. Dennis | The letters of Manuel II Palaeologus: text, translation, and notes | page 48: "...Triballians are the Serbs..." | Link |
16. | Trevor Nevitt Dupuy, Curt Johnson, David L. Bongard | The Harper encyclopedia of military biography | page 135: "...the son of Giovanni Castriota and his Serbian wife Voisava Tripalda..." | Link |
17. | Marios Philippides | Mehmed II the Conqueror and the fall of the Franco-Byzantine Levant to the Ottoman Turks: some western views and testimonies, 2007 | page 77: "...almost subjugated Triballians [=Serbs], and lunched..." | Link |
18. | Bibliographisches Institut Leipzig | Weltgeschichte: Bd. Südosteuropa und Osteuropa | page 220: "und Voisava, einer serbischen Prinzessin" | Link |
19. | Oxford University Press | The English Historical Review, Vol. 53, No. 209, 2002 | page 220: "But Skanderbeg's mother had a Slav name, and the epithet "Tribalda" given to her is a corruption of the tribal name "Triballi", which the pedantic Byzantine historians applied to the Serbs." | Link |
20. | Society for the Promotion of Hellenic Studies (London, England) | The Journal of Hellenic studies, Volume 79 | page 48: "Byzantine historians [...] calling [...] Serbs Triballians" | Link |
21. | Donald MacGillivray Nicol | Studies in late Byzantine history and prosopography, 1986 | Page 228: "Serbs [were] Triballians" | Link |
22. | Hermann Brockhaus | Griechenland geographisch, geschichtlich und culturhistorisch von den ältesten Zeiten bis auf die Gegenwart in Monographien dargestellt, Volume 7 | Page 123: "...die ihm Voisava, Tochter des serbische Herrn von Polog geboren..." | Link |
23. | Peter Giefer | Kosovo: Kultur und Natur zwischen Amselfeld und albanischen Alpen, 2009 | Page 27: "und seiner frau Voisava, einer Serbin." | Link |
24. | Oliver Jens Schmitt | Schweizer Historiker weckt den Ärger der Albaner | "Skanderbegs Mutter Vojsava war eine Serbin aus..." | Link |
25. | Olsi Jazexhi | "Another approach towards certain "exported" myths on Albanian historiography between occident and islam" | Page 98: "No matter what the historical facts might have been twisted, he is and will never be accepted from Albanian Muslims as the greatest defender of Christianity against Islâm or as a symbol of Albanian-Serbian brotherhood (since his mother was a Serb woman)" | Link |
26. | Fatos Lubonja | Re-Inventing Skenderbeg | "that the mother of Skenderbeg (Vojsava) was a Slav" | Link |
Only source where Voisava is Albanian is here, Fan Stylian Noli, and Musachi. Also, thesis that Tripalda is epithet for Serb is heavily sourced. And if we disband few sources that are not so good, what about the rest? In a first look, i found 26 sources! And what about the rest? So, per this, i ask for inclusion of the sources and data about Voisava origin, and quitting on political and ethnic agenda. Skanderbeg will not be less hero with Serbian mother. In this moment, all i see is 27 sources vs. 1 source. And if that first sources are only one relevant, how come that ALL sources we can find now write that Voisava is Serbian? I really cannot understand this blindness regarding sources... --WhiteWriter speaks 15:17, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- WW that one source you're comparing the SYNTH, OR and non-RS to is most comprehensive biography in English of Gjergj Kastrioti i.e don't compare number of sources but their quality.
- 19th century literature isn't reliable, so please read WP:RS. The sources have been reviewed many times and even when another one came up it was refuted[5]. You're quoting even Marin Barleti, but he never says anything about Voisava being a Serb, so plese don't attribute to him your WP:OR and don't connect it with any Serbs=Triballians(WP:SYNTH). 19th century and early 20th century tertiary sources aren't reliable per WP:RS like non-academic sources that speak about a Serbian-Albanian brotherhood. Btw why did you move the discussion without moving the replies to your RfC?--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:55, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- WW why are you labeling a 1938 book review, which isn't even academic work as a 2002 Oxford publication?--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:59, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- Well comments of all of you are known, and we dont need that in RfC, so i started new one in here, before anyone new and uninvolved responded. I am sorry to say, but it is complete and otter lye that sources have been reviewed and refuted. That poor link you repeated deals with only one source. You are welcomed to use your own space, and comment each and every source, but stop spamming with untruthful comments, please. If i make some mistake, it was not intentional. This is really not OK anymore. --WhiteWriter speaks 16:04, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- WW, there's more than one source saying Voisava was Albanian. (You already know them actually as you've participated in those discussions.) As for your sources, the majority of them have been deemed unreliable (See here: [6]). And it is not a lie that they have been refuted: Aigest et co. have been refuting them for ages -- in discussions you have participated in. As I have said before, the previous revision does not exclusively state that she was Albanian in an effort to maintain NPOV. What you are doing is POV-pushing.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 16:19, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- But people, please, give me diffs! I am asking that for days! List here sources, list all possible things, and we will see! I couldn't find any more sources with Voisava being Albanian. Post here! Some of the sources are not ok, i know that , but lest now deal with that once and for all. --WhiteWriter speaks 16:24, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- Fine:
- Kristo Frashëri, the most reputable source on the study of Skanderbeg who has been studying the man for more than fifty years, says she's Albanian. (Sorry but this is in Albanian: Ndërkohë, Gjon Kastrioti kishte krijuar një familje me një karvan fëmijë. Burimet tregimtare pajtohen kur thonë se ai ishte martuar me Vojsava Tribaldën, e bija e sundimtarit të Pollogut (trevë midis Gostivarit dhe Tetovës)... Sidoqoftë pë shkak të emrit, disa historianë e konsiderojnë Vojsavën sllave nga familja. Por të tjerë, duke u nisur nga lehtësia me të cilen shqiptarët kanë përdorur emra të huaj, (Karl Thopia dhe Gjergj Arianiti kishin vajza me emrin Vojsava), nuk e gjykojnë kombësinë e tyre as nga emri, as nga mbiemri, ndonëse në këtë rast, mbiemri Tribalda nuk është me origjinë sllave, por ilire. Ndër shkrimtarët e hershëm, Gjon Muzaka e thotë shkoqur se Tribaldët qenë shqiptarë. Translation)
- Gjon Muzaka claims that she is a descendant of his family, a self-proclaimed Albanian family. (See p. 308: [7])
- Harry Hodgkinson's work, which has been vetted by David Abulafia one of the premier historians on Mediterranean History, says she's Albanian from the Muzaka Family. (She [Voisava] seems to have belonged to the Musachi: they were the most powerful family in the south, controlling Berat and the fertile coastal area which had been the granary of Albania since classical times.) See also Bejtullah Destani's note: Scanderbeg's Origins: Since everything in the Balkans has to be turned to political effect, both Greeks and Slavs have claimed Scanderbeg as one of themselves... The claim that Scanderbeg was a Slav was first made by a German who misread a document of 1638 in Serbian. Among the signatories were a Branilo (a Slav Christian name) of Vlora and a Castrioti of Kanina. By overlooking the signle letter 'i' (meaning 'and'), he produced Branilo Castrioti as Scanderbeg's Serbian great-grandfather.
- Fan Noli says she's Albanian. (see here)
- Prof. Kenneth Walters of Wayne State University says she could not be Serbian or Greek but Albanian in a documentary about Skanderbeg. (see moment 9:04; the documentary was originally in English)
- Furthermore, Skanderbeg calls himself an Albanian and never refers to himself as Serbian. See his message to Giovanni Antonio del Balzo Orsini: Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. (see blue font; Oliver Jens Schmitt maintains this letter's authenticity)
- I have already said that it is not my purpose to put Voisava as an Albanian since I want to maintain NPOV. Please accept that.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 17:12, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- Fine:
- But people, please, give me diffs! I am asking that for days! List here sources, list all possible things, and we will see! I couldn't find any more sources with Voisava being Albanian. Post here! Some of the sources are not ok, i know that , but lest now deal with that once and for all. --WhiteWriter speaks 16:24, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- WW, there's more than one source saying Voisava was Albanian. (You already know them actually as you've participated in those discussions.) As for your sources, the majority of them have been deemed unreliable (See here: [6]). And it is not a lie that they have been refuted: Aigest et co. have been refuting them for ages -- in discussions you have participated in. As I have said before, the previous revision does not exclusively state that she was Albanian in an effort to maintain NPOV. What you are doing is POV-pushing.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 16:19, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- Well comments of all of you are known, and we dont need that in RfC, so i started new one in here, before anyone new and uninvolved responded. I am sorry to say, but it is complete and otter lye that sources have been reviewed and refuted. That poor link you repeated deals with only one source. You are welcomed to use your own space, and comment each and every source, but stop spamming with untruthful comments, please. If i make some mistake, it was not intentional. This is really not OK anymore. --WhiteWriter speaks 16:04, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
Good Gaius. At least you agree that we are seeking a NPOV here. Regarding the above link on Sk. calling himshelf Albanian, the original epistle and even the translation you direct us to, do not sustain this claim.
- "Our people" and "Albanians" belong to two different secondary sentences and you need a good effort to conclude that it means "I am Albanian".
- "Albanians" does not necessarily mean ethnicity.
- In the same epistle he says (original): "Majores nostri Epirotae fuerunt, ex quibus ille Pirrhus prodijt,...". This literally translates to "Our elder were Epirotes ...", not "from Epirus" as the anonymous translator cleverly put it. So, according to your logic, Skanderbeg calls himshelf Epirote. But this is out of topic (or, is it?) so I let the readers to think on the complications of the equation Epirote = Albanian. --Euzen (talk) 09:01, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
I am trying to prepare a "List of sources for Albanian ethnicity of Vojsava Kastrioti" based on the list that you presented on this talk page. Taking in consideration what is said on the RSN I have to ask you for help.
- Kristo Frashëri: a) What is the name of the book he wrote that contain quoted text? b) Is there quote in which he himself claimed Albanian ethnicity of Vojsava? In the quote you provided he claim that some historians claim she is Slav and some other she is Albanian. Then he wrote what Musachi said. Please provide a quote with Frasheri's opinion about her ethnicity, if there is one.
- Gjon Muzaka. Can you provide information about the book written by Muzaka and quote of his claim that Vojsava was Albanian? You provided a link to work of Carl Hopf, not his work.
- Harry Hodgkinson. In the quote you provided Harry Hodgkinson says: "She [Voisava] seems to have belonged to the Musachi" but he do not claim she is Albanian, so this may be SYNTH. Bejtullah Dostani's note doesn't mention Vojsava at all. Are you able to provide details of the work and quote with claim that Vojsava was Albanian? Here is a link that contains information that David Abulafia only wrote the introduction to this book, not the text of the book with the claim that Vojsava was Albanian. The text of the book was written by Harry Hodgkinson, who was not historian. He was British intelligence officer famous for his Anti-Serbian attitude. If I am wrong, please provide a quote written by David Abulafia that Vojsava was Albanian?
- Fan Noli: In the provided link Noli wrote about what Hopf, Musachi and Barletius wrote about her. Will you please provide a quote with Noli's claim that she was Albanian?
- Prof. Kenneth Walters: He talks about Skanderbeg's ethnicity, not about Vojsava's. In order to avoid SYNTH will you please provide quote about Vojsava's ethnicity?
- Skanderbeg: The quote you provided does not mention Vojsava. Are you able to provide quote for Skanderbeg's claim of Vojsava's ethnicity?
Thanks in advance for your clarifications. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:02, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
- Hopf's book is compilation of primary sources, not his own personal work. As for your other other arguments, I have no idea where you're getting at.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 03:13, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
- WW is copying outdated and extremely unreliable sources that have been found by Antidiskriminator like sources 3-4 which are outdated and racist old versions of Britannica, which nobody uses as a source. For example if someone wants to use their Negro article, he would have to deal withThe recognized leaders of the race are almost invariably persons of mixed blood, and the qualities which have made them leaders are derived certainly in part and perhaps mainly from their white ancestry ., so the verdict of reliability is on that. Btw in order to make them easier for me to review, could you strikethrough sources that I have already refuted like the SYNTH, the non-academic ones and the Britannica outdated versions?--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:09, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- You are not the only one to read and see this page. Write down the numbers of sources you find unusable. (Also comment in few words would be gold...) --WhiteWriter speaks
- If you removed the refuted ones or if you just moved them all to a subpage and linked it more people would comment. Now they have to deal with a huge list and when they move to the comments the first thing they can read is my refutal of britannica's old versions.
- Harper which has been added twice(both 16 and 17) is one of those unreliable WP:TERTIARYs. His birthdate and birthplace are wrong and even Krujë or Kruja is spelled wrong as Kruge.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:26, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- Source 2(Chamber's Enc) is one of those outdated sources that distinguish language families to Aryan and Semetic ones [8], while also advertizing products [9] i.e not RS.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:34, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- Fixed double entry... Mistake. :) --WhiteWriter speaks 18:17, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- I'll skip older and refuted sources and move to source 12, which is a Serbian Milosevic-era publication of such academic reliability that the previous paragraph is part of an essay about Albanian terrorists in Kosovo, so the verdict is on that and the wrong attribution of Barleti's quotes to Venetian sources.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 07:18, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
- Ok, we will wait for someone else to write, and Gaius to send links to references presented, so we can check them. --WhiteWriter speaks 20:55, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
- Some else did review them[10], so now they're again refuted.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:42, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
- Fixed double entry... Mistake. :) --WhiteWriter speaks 18:17, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- You are not the only one to read and see this page. Write down the numbers of sources you find unusable. (Also comment in few words would be gold...) --WhiteWriter speaks
- WW is copying outdated and extremely unreliable sources that have been found by Antidiskriminator like sources 3-4 which are outdated and racist old versions of Britannica, which nobody uses as a source. For example if someone wants to use their Negro article, he would have to deal withThe recognized leaders of the race are almost invariably persons of mixed blood, and the qualities which have made them leaders are derived certainly in part and perhaps mainly from their white ancestry ., so the verdict of reliability is on that. Btw in order to make them easier for me to review, could you strikethrough sources that I have already refuted like the SYNTH, the non-academic ones and the Britannica outdated versions?--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:09, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
- STOP with your misinformation and misinterpretation, i really cannot listen this any more. Majority of sources where NEVER presented in this article before this, that is FACT, and you may look trough page history. Its not again, as far as i know. I really dont want to beg you all the time to start acting constructively. How come all other editors can write in peaceful and normal way, without lies and constant misinformations? Just look Gaius Claudius Nero, i asked him, and he bring us here numerous sources that back up his claims. When i asked for sources, he gave us that. Thats the way to edit in good faith. Man, you are the ONLY editor in entire global wikipedia that make me step out of line. Please, try to have at least minimum good faith. I started this as i wanted to deal with this once and for all! As i wanted is to have good article that is truthful and neutral. Thats the reason i presented in this table all sources i could find, so we can have all of them in one place. I want to do good thing for this article! And, also, stop attacking me for my nationality! "Btw WW and 2 other Serbian editors are the users, who keep trying to add them to continue this ethnicity issue." Later you removed this, but my god, what is this? Did i ever pointed out loud your nationality? I dont care for that. That is harassment and direct rudeness, you know? "Trying to continue this ethnic issue"? I don't want to "continue this ethnicity issue", that is not the reason i started this! After this, we will know the best sources regarding this subject, and we will have most neutral solution. Article will be improved after this! We will have neutral good thing after this. We will have stable version, that we all find good. That is only possible way! We should talk about it, you should give me sources, diffs, propose solutions, new sentences... I am trying at my best. Stop attacking me. I fill like you just hate me being here, and want me to drop, and go away from this article this moment. I am sorry for this personal outburst, but really, i cannot believe. If you cannot edit in a friendly and peaceful way, don't edit at all! Sorry, the rest of you on this talk page. -WhiteWriter speaks 00:13, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
- WW of course many of these sources have been refuted again. On every section you have been claiming that the majority of these sources were never presented, but this is a discussion started by you [11](30 June 2010), which includes the sources 1,2,7,8 and then when refuted you were told about the reliability of old britannica editions. Six to seven months later you started another discussion on RSN, which included sources 5,7,8[12]. Gaius has already told that you added those sources. Your other britannica outdated editions also have been brought forward about 5 years ago[13]. The Triballi=Serbs therefore Skanderbeg's mother was a Serb has also been refuted many times on this page, since most of the sources about the Triballians=Serbs have been added again. Even the few ones that hadn't been reviewed by other users, were refuted so now please stick to that. --— ZjarriRrethues — talk 07:28, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
This is not a debate I have a stake in, so one comment, then out.
- WW: Your list of sources looks impressive, but unfortunately I would largely agree with Nuujinn who reviewed them for you. On any topic (like this one) where there has been substantial subsequent controversy, century-old encyclopedias and other reference works will be distinctly out of date; and your more recent sources do seem to be journalistic or similar - not ones that I would trust on a controversial historical topic without supporting evidence. However, Nuujinn stated that he was not a professional historian, and I'm not either - there's some chance that a detailed look at your more modern sources would show that two or three of them might either be reliable themselves or are based on ones which are reliable.
- ZZ: So far as I can see, while you are quite willing to criticise everyone else's proposed sources, you seem to be treating Fan Noli as totally reliable. Sorry, no - he was a trained historian, but his work is over sixty years old and he was in part writing as an Albanian deliberately trying to correct previous misrepresentations of Albanian history. Sometimes, probably without meaning to, he seems to have overcorrected. So I have as many misgivings about Fan Noli on this particular topic as about WW's sources.
So, please - for sourcing this, use more modern scholarly sources (preferably from the last 20 years). They are far more likely to represent general current understanding. PWilkinson (talk) 12:37, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
- I'd like to have modern scholarly sources, but even the modern reliable ones like Hickman or the ones that focus especially on Albanian-related history subjects just say go read Noli(even 2006 sources when mentioning the subject just say undoubtedly as the best modern work on the subject). Gaius Cladius Nero would be able to easily replace Noli with another source like the one co-written by David Abulafia of Cambridge, but the modern reliable sources use...Noli as a source too. His work on Skanderbeg is nowadays considered the same as Franz Babinger's work on Mehmed II to such an extent that it is considered comprehensive biography in English of Gjergj Kastrioti, the modern biography in English of the Albanian national hero George Castrioti.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:24, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
- Clarification: Marin Barleti's quote about Vojsava: "nobilissimus Tribalorum" = " Serbian nobility, Noble Serbian ", in this quote the Tribalorum signifies an ethnonym (-orum), or 'demonym' in relation to the Serb people (undisputed), by earlier and contemporary sources. Her name Vojsava comes from the Slavic female name 'Vojislava' (undisputed), the "surname" attributed (Tripalda) is a corruption of historical sources, as it in fact says "Vojsava of the Serbs". Vojsava was from a noble family of Polog, which at the time was part of the Serbian realm. The fact that she is of Serb ethnic character has been greatly refuted by post-WorldWar2 Albanian historians, as several other facts regarding the non-Albanian history of Albania or regions inhabited by Albanians. This is evidently continued by ZjarriRrethues, who does not advance in any way in his anti-Serb sentiment, he has contributed more with empty claims at the talk page than any real contribution to the article. --Zoupan (talk) 15:51, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
- Calm down Zoupan. I suggest you to read WP:OR again. We couldn't possibly know the ethnicity of the persons if they are not mentioned specifically. I would like to add that Tetovo region and all Macedonia were part of Ottoman Empire since the end of 14th century and we possibly couldn't know whose person is that one. It could have been an Ottoman official from Anatolia or a converted Muslim from the Balkan area. We simply don't know exactly, that's why the sources are mentioned verbatim. Aigest (talk) 07:55, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
- Calm down? I cannot believe the ignorance from the Albanian editors, why is there a problem with Vojsava being Serb, it doesnt make Scanderbeg or his family less important to Albanian history. It is mentioned specifically, and no one can deny this, Barleti mentions it himself, so just stop. Vojsava, of "an Ottoman official from Anatolia"? Please, it's getting funnier for every reply.--Zoupan (talk) 16:23, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- Zoupan please read WP:OR as Barleti never mentions that, so please don't attribute it to him.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:19, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, than we should change it to "Voisava, descendant of Triballian nobility"? Stop your ignorance, the Triballi-demonym for Serbs is undisputed (related to Teutons for Germans, Moesi for Bulgarians), so you should read OR, as you continue to deny sources. Again and again you prove your anti-Serbian feelings. --Zoupan (talk) 22:57, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
- Barleti never mentions a Triballi=Serbs i.e please don't attribute it to him(WP:SYNTH).--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:54, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
- So you are saying that Barleti is mentioning a people that has been dead for 1,5 millenia? No, he mentions TRIBALORUM, as in respect of an ethnic group or people, and all contemporary writers (from 1000-1600 AD) that ever used the same ethnonym refer to the SERBS, this is clearly explained in several articles and talk pages with sources, furthermore, all these sources mentioning Serbian origin cannot be ignored, I am reverting to the sourced state. --Zoupan (talk) 18:38, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- Zoupan please read WP:SYNTH i.e don't attribute Triballi=Serbs to Barleti and also per all the RSNs and RfCs please don't revert again.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:55, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- It is undisputed. Stop. So you are meaning that he is in fact saying that Voisava was the daughter of a Triballian noble as in, she lived 1,5 millenia ago? The Triballi are extinct since the 3rd century. The 13th-15th century writers Pachymeres, Gregoras, Metochites, Kantakouzenos, Manuel II (1391–1425) / Mehmed II / Franciscan Franjo Glavinic (1586-1650) and a dozen more known figures all mention the Serbs as Triballians. She was the daughter of the Lord of Polog, which at the time was in the Serbian realm. There are no mentions of her being an Albanian besides the Muzaka chronicles (in this case kin to Muzaka), her supposed surname "Tripalda" is false and a later misinterpretation (also sourced). Do you want us to alter the article to: Voisava [...] Triballian...? Even Albanian writers acknowledge a Serbian origin: Fatos Lubonja, Olsi Jazexhi and . The supermajority point to the fact that Scanderbeg's mother was Serbian, and I understand the taboo. It still doesnt give you the right to dismiss facts. --Zoupan (talk) 00:55, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
- Zoupan please read WP:SYNTH i.e don't attribute Triballi=Serbs to Barleti and also per all the RSNs and RfCs please don't revert again.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:55, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- So you are saying that Barleti is mentioning a people that has been dead for 1,5 millenia? No, he mentions TRIBALORUM, as in respect of an ethnic group or people, and all contemporary writers (from 1000-1600 AD) that ever used the same ethnonym refer to the SERBS, this is clearly explained in several articles and talk pages with sources, furthermore, all these sources mentioning Serbian origin cannot be ignored, I am reverting to the sourced state. --Zoupan (talk) 18:38, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- Barleti never mentions a Triballi=Serbs i.e please don't attribute it to him(WP:SYNTH).--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:54, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, than we should change it to "Voisava, descendant of Triballian nobility"? Stop your ignorance, the Triballi-demonym for Serbs is undisputed (related to Teutons for Germans, Moesi for Bulgarians), so you should read OR, as you continue to deny sources. Again and again you prove your anti-Serbian feelings. --Zoupan (talk) 22:57, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
- Zoupan please read WP:OR as Barleti never mentions that, so please don't attribute it to him.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:19, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- Calm down? I cannot believe the ignorance from the Albanian editors, why is there a problem with Vojsava being Serb, it doesnt make Scanderbeg or his family less important to Albanian history. It is mentioned specifically, and no one can deny this, Barleti mentions it himself, so just stop. Vojsava, of "an Ottoman official from Anatolia"? Please, it's getting funnier for every reply.--Zoupan (talk) 16:23, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
- Calm down Zoupan. I suggest you to read WP:OR again. We couldn't possibly know the ethnicity of the persons if they are not mentioned specifically. I would like to add that Tetovo region and all Macedonia were part of Ottoman Empire since the end of 14th century and we possibly couldn't know whose person is that one. It could have been an Ottoman official from Anatolia or a converted Muslim from the Balkan area. We simply don't know exactly, that's why the sources are mentioned verbatim. Aigest (talk) 07:55, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
Renaming?
According to Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(biographies)#Maiden_names "While the article title should generally be the name by which the subject is most commonly known, the subject's full name should be given in the lead paragraph, if known. Many cultures have a tradition of not using the full name of a person in everyday reference, but the article should start with the complete version."
Maybe we should rename the article to Vojsava Kastrioti since it is the name by which she is most commonly known, after she got married to Gjon (Ivan, Jovan...) and gave birth to George? I think that Tripalda as her last name is largely criticized and disputed which is not the case with Kastrioti last name.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:24, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
- Those who have anything against the renaming are invited to leave comment below.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:48, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
Sources on Voisava being ethnic Albanian
As the extreme majority of sources point on a Serb origin, i would ask for sources denying this or in any other way claiming Voisava being ethnic Albanian. --Zoupan (talk) 22:41, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
Claim | Classification |
---|---|
Frashëri, Kristo (1962), George Kastrioti-Scanderbeg: the national hero of the Albanians (1405–1468), s.n., OCLC 1339175, Ndërkohë, Gjon Kastrioti kishte krijuar një familje me një karvan fëmijë. Burimet tregimtare pajtohen kur thonë se ai ishte martuar me Vojsava Tribaldën, e bija e sundimtarit të Pollogut (trevë midis Gostivarit dhe Tetovës)... Sidoqoftë pë shkak të emrit, disa historianë e konsiderojnë Vojsavën sllave nga familja. Por të tjerë, duke u nisur nga lehtësia me të cilen shqiptarët kanë përdorur emra të huaj, (Karl Thopia dhe Gjergj Arianiti kishin vajza me emrin Vojsava), nuk e gjykojnë kombësinë e tyre as nga emri, as nga mbiemri, ndonëse në këtë rast, mbiemri Tribalda nuk është me origjinë sllave, por ilire. Ndër shkrimtarët e hershëm, Gjon Muzaka e thotë shkoqur se Tribaldët qenë shqiptarë |
Writer acknowledges the historic classification of Voisava as Slavic, also pointing on Muzaka's claim of her being kin to the Muzaka's (Albanian). |
Hodgkinson, Harry (1999), Scanderbeg: From Ottoman Captive to Albanian Hero, Centre for Albanian Studies, ISBN 9781873928134, She [Voisava] seems to have belonged to the Musachi: they were the most powerful family in the south, controlling Berat and the fertile coastal area which had been the granary of Albania since classical times. |
Possibly Albanian ---- not verifiable, this points to Muzaka's chronicles |
What actually the translation points to....
Claim | Translation |
---|---|
Frashëri, Kristo (1962), George Kastrioti-Scanderbeg: the national hero of the Albanians (1405–1468), s.n., OCLC 1339175, Ndërkohë, Gjon Kastrioti kishte krijuar një familje me një karvan fëmijë. Burimet tregimtare pajtohen kur thonë se ai ishte martuar me Vojsava Tribaldën, e bija e sundimtarit të Pollogut (trevë midis Gostivarit dhe Tetovës)... Sidoqoftë pë shkak të emrit, disa historianë e konsiderojnë Vojsavën sllave nga familja. Por të tjerë, duke u nisur nga lehtësia me të cilen shqiptarët kanë përdorur emra të huaj, (Karl Thopia dhe Gjergj Arianiti kishin vajza me emrin Vojsava), nuk e gjykojnë kombësinë e tyre as nga emri, as nga mbiemri, ndonëse në këtë rast, mbiemri Tribalda nuk është me origjinë sllave, por ilire. Ndër shkrimtarët e hershëm, Gjon Muzaka e thotë shkoqur se Tribaldët qenë shqiptarë |
Meanwhile Gjon Kastrioti had created a family and had a lot of children. Sources agree when they say that he was married with Vojsava Tribalda, daughter of the ruler of Pollog (region between Gostivar and Tetova). Anyway because of her name, some historians consider Vojsava as Slavic. But others, judging from the easiness with which Albanians used foreign names, (Karl Topia and Gjergj Arianiti, both had daughters named Vojsava), don't judge their nationality neither from the name, nor from the surname, although in this case the surname is not of Slavic origin but of Illyrian origin. Among earlier writers, Gjon Muzaka says clearly that Tribalda were Albanians. |
Hodgkinson, Harry (1999), Scanderbeg: From Ottoman Captive to Albanian Hero, Centre for Albanian Studies, ISBN 9781873928134, She [Voisava] seems to have belonged to the Musachi: they were the most powerful family in the south, controlling Berat and the fertile coastal area which had been the granary of Albania since classical times. |
No need for translation here ... |
Aigest (talk) 10:45, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
- Once more
- "On the quote you provided Harry Hodgkinson says: "She [Voisava] seems to have belonged to the Musachi" but he do not claim she is Albanian, so this may be SYNTH."
- "a) What is the name of the book he wrote that contain quoted text? b) Is there quote in which he himself claimed Albanian ethnicity of Vojsava? In the quote you provided he claim that some historians claim she is Slav and some other she is Albanian. Then he wrote what Musachi said. Please provide a quote with Frasheri's opinion about her ethnicity, if there is one.!"
- Do we have ANY undisputed reliable source on this? That all users can agree on. --WhiteWriter speaks 18:36, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
Prot
Page protected to facilitate discussion and prevent edit warring per request. Any admin can reverse this without contacting me. --Closedmouth (talk) 23:22, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
Number of children
There is an obvious mistake with number of the children Vojsava had with Mr. Kastrioti.
"Through her marriage with Gjon Kastrioti, she had 8 children, one of them Albanian national hero Skanderbeg and four other sons, Stanisha, Reposh, Branilo, and Konstantin, and four daughters (Jela, Marica, Mara, and Vlajica)."
I propose to correct above mentioned mistake by replacing the text from the article with correct number of the children and their names. Proposals are welcome.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:54, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
Sources for Vojsava being a member of the Muzaka family
Proposal
The article says:
"She was probably a member of the Muzaka family (Musachi) of the Principality of Berat."
During RSN and RfC about Vojsava it was agreed that:
- only secondary sources
- presenting statements of contemporary historians (their opinion, not them citing someone else or WP:SYNTH)
- published in works during last 20 years
can be considered as RSN in context of this article.
The sources referenced to support above mentioned statement (Noli and Hodgkinson) do not meet the criteria for RSN because:
- They are not presenting statements of contemporary historians published in works during last 20 years
- They are WP:SYNTH because both Noli and Hodkinson wrote what John Muzaka (or someone else) said.
Also, let me remind you that Robert Elsie, Albanophile and expert on Albanian studies, characterizes John Musachi's chronicle as "no work of great scholarship" whose historical accounts are confusing, although it is an important source for late 15th-century Albania.(1515. John Musachi: Brief Chronicle on the Descendants of our Musachi Dynasty")
There is neutral contemporary historian, who wrote his opinion in his work published in last 20 years:
- Schmitt, Oliver Jens (2008), Kosovo: kurze Geschichte einer zentralbalkanischen Landschaft (in German), Wien: Bohlau Verlag, p. 62, ISBN 978-3-8252-3156-9,
Ein Teil Seiner familie floh zu Skanderbeg, der selbst mit den Brankovići verwandt war. Einen ethnischen Gegensatz zwischen Serben und Albanern kann man in der Elite Mittelalter nicht festsellen - die engen Verbindungen des serbischen und albanischen orthodoxen Adels allein schon standen dem ent gegen: Skanderbegs Mutter war wohl eine Brankovic, und sein Sohn Ivan heiratete eine Brankovic (Irene).
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This source meets all agreed criteria for RSN and can be used as source for statement about Vojsava's family.
Therefore I propose to change above mentioned sentence to be like:
“She was probably a member of the Brankovići family.”
--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:47, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
Comments
- It was refuted on RSN i.e please read WP:RS. Btw Noli is considered the standard source for Skanderbeg and Hodgkinson co-wrote his work with David Albulafia.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:03, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- Will you please be so kind to present the link to the RSN you refer to?
- David Albulafia did not co-wr
oite above mentioned work. He only wrote the intro, not the claim about family of Vojsava. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:18, 5 May 2011 (UTC)- It's spelt "did not co-write" in the Past Tense. --Doktor Plumbi (talk) 02:24, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- And you should definitely be named Doktor Smart! FkpCascais (talk) 09:07, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- And you should definitely be named Doktor Smart! FkpCascais (talk) 09:07, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- It's spelt "did not co-write" in the Past Tense. --Doktor Plumbi (talk) 02:24, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
Some users are censoring instead of editing this article. It is WP's principle that all reliable sources must be reflected in an article. Can someone explain why Prof. O. Schmitt and other historian are excluded in favour of a non-expert biased copyist author (Hodgkinson)? --Euzen (talk) 09:22, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- As we can see on the RS noticeboard, . This reliable source is included in the article. If anyone questioned it, while several other users agreed on it, that same user MUST use reliable source noticeboard, or some other normal guideline solution. Zjarri, really, final, final warning regarding your misinformation's and lies on this page. How can you, after so many normal civilized pleas by multiple users? Hodgkinson should be questioned in some better way, as this discussion on RS/N didn't bring solution. Although more users disagreed with this source then agreed. Also, i would include my self in those disagreeing. If we even forget all other questions, but The Centre for Albanian Studies, which main aim is “to publish books, pamphlets and to also organise conferences and seminars relating to Albania, Kosova and Albanian speaking world”, and all of that in 1999, while Hodgkinson died in 1994? C'mon, that is not international reliable source... --WhiteWriter speaks 13:36, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- David Abulafia is one of the co-writers i.e RS. Btw that's not a result for inclusion of Schmitt on RSN, but on RFC the inclusion wasn't even proposed by others. WW you started another RSN for Noli, Hodgkinson etc. and according to that And looking at the other sources ... they all seem reliable to me. Again, is there a reason you question them?--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:52, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- @ZjarriRrethues:
That is not true. Link that you provided show that WW started another RSN only for Noli, not for Hodgkinson etc.Will you please answer my question (Will you please be so kind to present the link to the RSN you refer to?). Please read Wikipedia:Tendentious editing: One who ignores or refuses to answer good faith questions from other editors --Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:58, 6 May 2011 (UTC)- Antid: WW asked Also, are any of the sources currently presented in the article reliable? and the answer was 'And looking at the other sources ... they all seem reliable to me. Again, is there a reason you question them?'.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:05, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- @ZjarriRrethues: Yes, you are right about his question. Sorry about it. Since Schmitt is not in that list I will repeat my question. (Will you please be so kind to present the link to the RSN you refer to?)--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:14, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- Surely there are better sources than this if the subject is truly notable i.e WW shouldn't use parts of the RSN, but the whole review.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:20, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- The source I presented above was never discussed on that RSN. Take closer look. On the list of sources discussed on RSN was newspaper text and interview of Oliver Schmitt about his book: “Skanderbeg: der neue Alexander auf dem Balkan”
- The source I presented here is completely another book:
- Schmitt, Oliver Jens (2008), Kosovo: kurze Geschichte einer zentralbalkanischen Landschaft (in German), Wien: Bohlau Verlag, p. 62, ISBN 978-3-8252-3156-9,
Ein Teil Seiner familie floh zu Skanderbeg, der selbst mit den Brankovići verwandt war. Einen ethnischen Gegensatz zwischen Serben und Albanern kann man in der Elite Mittelalter nicht festsellen - die engen Verbindungen des serbischen und albanischen orthodoxen Adels allein schon standen dem ent gegen: Skanderbegs Mutter war wohl eine Brankovic, und sein Sohn Ivan heiratete eine Brankovic (Irene).
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- This source was never "refuted on RSN" (as you said) becase it was not included in the list of sources submitted to the RSN. But Noli was . --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:40, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- Schmitt, Oliver Jens (2008), Kosovo: kurze Geschichte einer zentralbalkanischen Landschaft (in German), Wien: Bohlau Verlag, p. 62, ISBN 978-3-8252-3156-9,
- Surely there are better sources than this if the subject is truly notable i.e WW shouldn't use parts of the RSN, but the whole review.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:20, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- @ZjarriRrethues: Yes, you are right about his question. Sorry about it. Since Schmitt is not in that list I will repeat my question. (Will you please be so kind to present the link to the RSN you refer to?)--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:14, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- Antid: WW asked Also, are any of the sources currently presented in the article reliable? and the answer was 'And looking at the other sources ... they all seem reliable to me. Again, is there a reason you question them?'.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:05, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- @ZjarriRrethues:
- Are there any other contemporary scholars who agree with Schmitt or is he the only one to sustain the liaison Brankovic-Tripalda? --Doktor Plumbi (talk) 17:01, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- Are there any other contemporary scholars who agree with Schmitt or is he the only one to sustain the liaison Brankovic-Tripalda? --Doktor Plumbi (talk) 17:01, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
Good question. Schmitt is THE contemporary scholar on the Albanian history. Let' see now if Hodgkinson is a scholar at all, and let us also see who is the contemporary scholar supporting that Vojsava was Albanian. The users also deserve an explanation on the reason why Barletti's information on Vojsava is not included in this article, while other Albania-related articles are vastly depending on him. Any good explanation will be transfered to other articles' discussions and edits.--Euzen (talk) 19:34, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- Mmmmmmm, Schmitt, THE contemporary scholar on Albanian history? Don't think so. His publication on Skanderbeg was very controversial. Although I recognize the importance of a revisionist, I wouldn't say that he is "the" historian. As a matter of fact you didn't answer my question: Are there any other revisionists like him right now, yes? no? maybe? --Doktor Plumbi (talk) 19:56, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- The contemporary scholar on Albanian history is Kristo Frasheri who has been studying Skanderbeg and Albanian history in general for more than fifty years. Schmitt hasn't even been alive for fifty years.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 01:19, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
Kristo Frasheri (like everybody else) has to study his country's history throughout his life. We are talking about scholars with international recognition and work in major languages. I was not able to find any K.F.'s works in other than Albanian language but my search was possibly not exhaustive. On the other hand, we are looking for scholars who are not involved in current nationalistic propaganda and who may be considered reasonably objective. Unfortunatelly, K.F. is currently involved in anti-Greek propaganda around the North Epirus Greek minority, the coming census in Albania, attacking Bishop Anastasios etc. Translation of his interview in the "Shqip" at "Top Channel" is available, including his opinion that during middle ages there were no Greeks in Albania and that there is no Greek minority in Himara, Argyrokastro and Agioi Saranta. However, I find no reason why his opinion on Vojsava should not be mentioned in this article and I'm sure they are. The point is the inclusion of all views so that the article is really encyclopedic and informative. --Euzen (talk) 10:59, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
- You are inviting a topic which is not within the scope of this article (eg. Anastasios, Nothern Epirus), ie. please read WP:NOT#FORUM.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 17:24, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
- @Euzen, if we are looking for scholars who are not involved in current nationalistic propaganda, we ought to exclude Schmitt first, because he is deeply perceived in Albania as an anti-Albanian. --Doktor Plumbi (talk) 15:26, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
- @Gaius Claudius Nero: Please take care about what wikipedia say about tendentious editing. Wikipedia:Tendentious editing - One who disputes the reliability of apparently good sources. Also, you should take care about One who ignores or refuses to answer good faith questions from other editors. After you wrote stating that: "Kristo Frashëri...says she's Albanian", "Harry Hodgkinson...says she's Albanian", "Fan Noli says she's Albanian", I asked you almost a month ago to clarify your claims and to provide details (works and quotations) which prove your claims that Frasheri, Hodgkinson and Noli said that “she's Albanian”. Thanks in advance for your clarifications.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:13, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
- You are inviting a topic which is not within the scope of this article (eg. Anastasios, Nothern Epirus), ie. please read WP:NOT#FORUM.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 17:24, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
- Antid. does any other scholar support the Brankovic view?(i.e if it's only Schmitt that's a WP:FRINGE). Btw if the Brankovic link was even a possibility there should be something in the sources about Đurađ Branković and Skanderbeg, who would be related. None of the primary/secondary sources, which deal with the Albanian-Venetian war, Varna etc. mention a relation between the two.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 12:19, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
- The Late Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Late Twelfth Century to the Ottoman Conquest considered to be one of the best works about the late medieval Balkans doesn't mention that view even as a possibility, although it does extensively deal with the Brankovic-Skanderbeg affairs.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 12:38, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
- We have two sources about her family:
- One is Gjon Muzaka who claim that she is member of Muzaka family. Muzaka is not contemporary historian. Muzaka family are Albanians.
- Another is Oliver Jens Schmitt who claim that she is probably a member of the Brankovići family. Oliver Jens Schmitt is contemporary historian. Brankovići family are Serbs.
- Taking in consideration:
- there are dozens of sources about Vojsava being Serb, many of them written by contemporary historians
- there are no sources about Vojsava being Albanian
- that work of Gjon Muzaka is considered as "no work of great scholarship" even by Albanophiles like Robert Elsie
- if any claim must be defined as Fringe, it is more likely to be Muzaka's then Scmitt's.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:51, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
- Antid. is there anyone else except for Schmitt that supports the Brankovic view(i.e WP:FRINGE)? Btw Muzaka is a primary source and the Muzaka view is maintained by scholars like David Abulafia.--17:07, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
- I already gave the answer about number of sources about her family. Refusal to "get the point" is disruptive to Wikipedia and someone could see it as tendentious editing. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:17, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
- Antid. is there anyone else except for Schmitt that supports the Brankovic view(i.e WP:FRINGE)? Btw Muzaka is a primary source and the Muzaka view is maintained by scholars like David Abulafia.--17:07, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
- We have two sources about her family:
Zjarri is right. Schmitt's theory is fringe material. It is not accepted by any other scholars. Furthermore, he does not even cite where he got the Brankovic from and never even says how he got it.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 17:24, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
- Don't drag the frame of discussion from ethnicity to family. The important information is about "Triballian" or "Serbian" origin, by citing 3 or 4 sources. The "Brankovic" information may be added as an "assumption" citing Schmitt.--Euzen (talk) 17:56, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
- Zoupan proved that I was wrong when I stated that we have only two sources about her family. He provided one more source for her being Branković. Work written by contemporary scholar who interpreted primary documents. I believe this closes this case. Thank you Zoupan.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:03, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
- @Gaius Claudius Nero: Momčilo Spremić is a member of Serbian Academy of Science and Arts, specialist for history of Balkans in late middle ages, who wrote numerous works about Brankovići, received Vuk’s Endowment Award for Science for his work about Branković. He is another contemporary historian, besides Boban Petrovski, who supported Schmitt's theories (emphasizing Schmitt's opinion about her being Branković(кћи Гргура Бранковића, сина великог севастократора Бранка, који je господарио у Охриду. (daughter of Grgur Braković, son of sevastocrator Branko, who governed his territories from Ochrid)) and stated that Schmitt's work is "најбоље написана историја Скендербега" (the best biography of Skanderbeg till now). Your claim that Schmitt's findings about Vojsava being member of Brankovici fammily are not supported by other scholars are proven not to be true. Why do you try so hard to dispute reliability of apparently good source written by historian whose works you extensively use in the articles you write? Let me remind you that you used Schmitt as referenced source 21 times in (good) article Skanderbeg's Italian expedition.
- Also, let me remind you that you should take care about One who ignores or refuses to answer good faith questions from other editors. After you wrote stating that: "Kristo Frashëri...says she's Albanian", "Harry Hodgkinson...says she's Albanian", "Fan Noli says she's Albanian", I asked you almost a month ago to clarify your claims and to provide details (works and quotations) which prove your claims that Frasheri, Hodgkinson and Noli said that “she's Albanian”. Thanks in advance for your clarifications (for the third time). --Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:13, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
- Zoupan added again all the sources that were refuted and few more from sites like makedonika(i.e not RS). Why can't you stick to the results of the RSN and the RfC? Every few days one of you comes back to add again the same refuted sources, the Barleti synth and everything else related to it. Antid. this website [14](an online journal that also deals with Macedonian pre-history) isn't RS, so take it to RSN.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 07:37, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
- Zoupan proved that I was wrong when I stated that we have only two sources about her family. He provided one more source for her being Branković. Work written by contemporary scholar who interpreted primary documents. I believe this closes this case. Thank you Zoupan.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:03, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Removed text
I have removed this text :
On her ethnic origin most authors support that she was Serbian<ref name=TWH>[http://books.google.com/?cd=4&hl=sv&id=FEHTAAAAMAAJ&dq=voisava The World's History: South-eastern and eastern Europe, by Hans Ferdinand Helmolt, Viscount James Bryce Bryce] Page 225: "Voisava, the Servian princess of Polog..."</ref><ref>[http://books.google.com/?id=OfdBAAAAYAAJ&q=Voisava Chambers's Encyclopaedia (Edinburgh, W. & R. Chambers)], 1889, p. 107: "George Castriota [...] was one of the great lords of Epirus, his mother, Voisava, being a Servian princess."</ref><ref>[http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/SAR_SCY/SCANDERBEG_or_ISKENDER_BEY_14o3.html Scanderbeg] Originally appearing in Volume V24, Page 287 of the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica: "of a Servian princess named Vaisava"</ref><ref>[[Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition]]</ref><ref>Alexander W. Hidden, 1912, [http://books.google.com/?id=ZVtFAAAAYAAJ ''The Ottoman dynasty: a history of the sultans of Turkey from the earliest authentic record to the present time, with notes on the manners and customs of the people''], p. 50: "Iskender Bey was the youngest of the four sons of Duke John Castriot and Princess Voisava of Servian descent"</ref><ref>Antonina Zhelyazkova, ''Albanian Identities, International Centre for Minority Studies and Intercultural Relations'', 2000, [http://pdc.ceu.hu/archive/00003852/01/Albanian_Identities.pdf PDF]</ref><ref>''Encyclopædia Britannica: a new survey of universal knowledge'', [http://books.google.com/?id=X0YqAAAAMAAJ Vol. 20], p. 756: "Voisava Tripalda, daughter of a Serbian magnate"</ref><ref>Viscount James Bryce Bryce, [http://books.google.com/?id=FEHTAAAAMAAJ The World's History: South-eastern and eastern Europe]: "Voisava, daughter of the Servian lord of Polog"</ref>, possibly
Based on what I can understand here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_94#Help_needed and here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_53 they are not reliable. please let talk about it. Maybe we should just make a section on the "viewpoint" that she is serbian and document it instead of presenting it as a fact? James Michael DuPont (talk) 21:14, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
The only work about Vojsava
Thanks to Zoupan we now have one (and for now the only) work (though rather short) which is solely dedicated to Vojsava:
- Petrovski, Boban (2006), Воисава Трибалда (Voisava Tribalda) (PDF) (in Macedonian), Skopje, p. 9,
Dokolku ja prifatime ovaa varijanta, spored koja Brankovićite bile gospodari na/vo Polog do početokot na poslednata decenija od XIV vek, vo toj slučaj proizleguva deka Voisava bila ćerka na Grgur ili pak, možebi na Vuk Branković
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This work also satisfies all criteria requested by RSN and RfC (only works of contemporary historians published in last 20 years) because it is written by contemporary historian Boban Petrovski. This work has been published in 2006, during the International scientific conference held in Skopje in 2005. and 2006. (Меѓународен научен собир по повод одбележувањето на 600-годишнината од раѓањето на Ѓерѓ Кастриоти Скендер-бег (1405-1468), Скопје, 25 и 26 ноември 2005, Скопје 2006.)
Both CV and Bibliography of Dr. Boban Petrovski show that he is specialized in Medieval Balkans History.
He wrote numerous works about Polog:
- Доцноантички / рановизантиски населби во Полог (6. век), Македонско наследство XII 34-35, Скопје 2009.
- Петровски Б., Локалната власт во средновековната жупа Полог: претставници и нивни ингеренции, ГЗФФ, книга 62 , Скопје 2009.
- Петровски Б., Границите на доцноантичките провинции како детерминанти за културната историја (случајот со Полог). Антиката и европската култура, Прилози од научниот собир одржан по повод јубилејот 60 години Институт за класични студии, Скопје 2009.
- Петровски Б., Рефлексии од Третиот крстоносен поход врз Полог, ГЗФФ, книга 61, Скопје 2008.
- Петровски Б., Византиската управа во Полог по уништувањето на Самуиловата држава, Историја XLIV / 1-2, Скопје 2008.
- Петровски Б., “Жоупа полож`ка”, ГЗФФ, книга 60, Скопје 2007.
- Петровски Б., Средновековната историја и историографија во Македонија, ракурс кон освојувањето на Норманите и траењето на нивната власт во Полог. Прилози од меѓународната конференција „Историја, историографија и наставата по историја” одржана од 21-23 ноември 2007 година во Скопје, Скопје 2007
- Петровски Б., Манастирски имоти во средновековен Полог, ГЗФФ, книга 59, Скопје 2006.
- Петровски Б.-Софрониевски В., Синодалниот акт No. 94 од збирката на Хоматијан како извор за историјата на Полог, Историја XLI / 1-2, Скопје 2005.
- Петровски Б., Односот на населението и локалните власти од Северозападна Македонија (Полог и Скопје) кон норманските “варвари” и “цивилизираните” Византијци за време на византиско-норманската војна 1081-1085 година, Епохи-Историческо списание на Великотърновския университет “Св. св. Кирил и Методи”, Книжка 1-2, година XI, MMIII, Велико Търново 2005.
- Петровски Б.-Софрониевски В., Документите No. 58 и No. 103 од збирката на Хоматијан како извор за историјата на Полог, ГЗФФ, книга 58, Скопје 2005.
Based on the above arguments, I think we can conclude that Dr. Boban Petrovski is credible scholar, whose work are very valuable for this article. Therefore I propose:
- to include his above mentioned work about Vojsava in "Further reading" section.
- to include informations he wrote about Vojsava into the text of the article. I mean on informations that she married her husband in 1390's that she was 12—16 (which means she was born around 1376, that Polog was controlled by Branković family when she was born...)
--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:30, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
- Please read WP:SYNTH and WP:RS. You can go to RSN and ask if the makedonika blog is RS too. Btw since you consider makedonika RS, you should consider adding on Macedonia-related articles another work they published Arguments for the Undying Saga od Ancient Macedonia. --— ZjarriRrethues — talk 12:03, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
- From what I can tell (note that I cannot understand Macedonian), this is not a blog post but an academic paper which was researched, written, published, and presented by a legitimate historian. I do not know what it says, but surely it should not be dismissed so quickly, especially as it appears to be unusual in its direct treatment of Vojsava. Antidiskriminator, would you mind expanding on what this paper says and what makes it a reliable source, preferably in English? Take as much time as you need. Thanks, A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 22:40, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
- Doing...--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:59, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
- Btw while doing that please explain why someone who has a degree in philosophy and whose work is published in a website like makedonika is a reliable source for this subject. Also please explain why although his studies aren't related to geopolitics he writes papers like Macedonia and its neighbours. He has also served as the editor-in-shief of the Macedonian Historical Review. Why should someone who has been responsible about such a paper be considered a reliable source? Antid. you should also provide a translation of the pdf or a summary of, since most can't understand it.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:31, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
- Btw while doing that please explain why someone who has a degree in philosophy and whose work is published in a website like makedonika is a reliable source for this subject. Also please explain why although his studies aren't related to geopolitics he writes papers like Macedonia and its neighbours. He has also served as the editor-in-shief of the Macedonian Historical Review. Why should someone who has been responsible about such a paper be considered a reliable source? Antid. you should also provide a translation of the pdf or a summary of, since most can't understand it.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:31, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
- Doing...--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:59, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
- From what I can tell (note that I cannot understand Macedonian), this is not a blog post but an academic paper which was researched, written, published, and presented by a legitimate historian. I do not know what it says, but surely it should not be dismissed so quickly, especially as it appears to be unusual in its direct treatment of Vojsava. Antidiskriminator, would you mind expanding on what this paper says and what makes it a reliable source, preferably in English? Take as much time as you need. Thanks, A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 22:40, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
The above questions apply also for the various Hodgkinsons and Kristo Frasheris. Can I have answers please?--Euzen (talk) 17:28, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
- The work you're asking questions about was also co-written by David Abulafia of Cambridge i.e RS.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:30, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
- @ZjarriRrethues: It is not true that he has a degree in philosophy. The CV I presented above is on English. It clearly says that he finished his education, postraduate and doctoral studies at the Faculty of Philosophy, precisely it's Department of History. Here you can see
that his average grade was 9,88 andthat his Doctor of Philosophy thesis was “Polog in the Middle Ages (sixth-fourteenth century). Let me remind you that "The term "philosophy" does not refer solely to the modern field of philosophy, but is used in a broader sense in accordance with its original Greek meaning, which is "love of wisdom".)--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:08, 9 May 2011 (UTC) - How is his grade related to his reliability as a scholar?--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:10, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
- Its not.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:11, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
- Done--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:16, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- Its not.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:11, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
- @ZjarriRrethues: It is not true that he has a degree in philosophy. The CV I presented above is on English. It clearly says that he finished his education, postraduate and doctoral studies at the Faculty of Philosophy, precisely it's Department of History. Here you can see
Expanding on what this paper says and what makes it a reliable source
This paper says that Vojsava was nobility, member of Brankovići (daughter of Grgur Branković or Vuk Branković) and of Serbian ethnicity.
I believe that this work is reliable source because the author is contemporary historian, authoritative in relation to the subject, whose work, published at the International scientific conference held in Skopje, is supported with numerous sources and later researches.
Detailed analysis/rationale
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I - What this paper says? This work explains Vojsava’s[BP 1]:
I believe that this work is reliable source because the author is contemporary historian [BP 8], authoritative in relation to the subject [BP 9]. His work could not be more supported with the sources, written by 60 different authors.[BP 10]. This work was published at the International scientific conference held in Skopje in 2005. and 2006 regarding the 600 years from the birth of Skanderbeg. This conference was attended by numerous scholars, some of them from Albania and Kosovo. Additionally, later research of Oliver Jens Schmitt and comments of Momčilo Spremić confirmed the author's opinion that Vojsava was member of Brankovići.
In his work author explained details about two different positions in historical science about the identity of the Grgur who was undisputed ruler of Polog, in period 1366—1371 at least.[BP 11]:
Boban Petrovski supported the latter position, despite the fact that no authentic medieval sources show that Vojsava was member of Brankovići family. He explained his opinion with newly established constellation of forces in 1376/1377, when Vuk Branković, most probably supported by Lazar Hrebeljanović, gained control over Skopje. Based on the explained military and political context, the author concluded that it is very likely that Grgur Branković rejected the rule of Prince Marko, with support of Vuk Branković. That rejection was perhaps a prerequisite for Vuk's conquest of Skopje.[BP 14] Author also supported this position with the ages of Vuk Branković, Grgur Branković and Vojsava too.
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--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:16, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- So Petrovski is not basing his theory on any medieval sources as you say and of course his whole work is a PhD thesis.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:06, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- On the contrary. Petrovski used in his research all existing medieval sources about Vojsava. Two out of three statements are directly supported by medieval sources also (his statements about Vojsava's social status (nobility) and ethnicity (Serbian)).
- Petrovski's PhD thesis is “Polog in the Middle Ages (sixth-fourteenth century)", not this work.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:22, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- Boban Petrovski supported the latter position, despite the fact that no authentic medieval sources show that Vojsava was member of Brankovići family. i.e he's not basing his theory about her on any medieval sources.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:08, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- Look Antid, Brankovic family had well-known links to Albanian lords of that time and was well known among Albanians before and after Skanderbeg period eg Gjergj Thopia was married to Teodora Branković, Stefan Branković married Angjelina Arianit Komneni, daughter of Albanian lord Gjergj Arianit Komneni, Skanderbeg son John Kastrioti was married to Jerina Branković, daughter of Lazar Branković etc, but note that none of Skanderbeg biographers has claimed that Scanderbeg mother was a Branković, not Barletius, not Francus, not Muzaka. Not one of medieval sources (Venice, Hungarian, Ragusian, Papal, Aragonese, and even Serb) of the period (and even latter) claim that. There should be e very good reason for that silence.
- P.S. I remember reading somewhere (probably Noli) the interpretation that probably she was not of such a high social status. In the end the father of Skanderbeg was not an influential person at the time of his marriage and appears on the sources only in 1407, after Skanderbeg (his last of four sons but probably other daughters were between) was born. Muzaka chronicle is right in claiming that he had originally only two villages in his domain, because he is virtually unknown up to 1407, so not worthy of marrying noble figures. Yes he became a local figure and ruler but long after (probably all) his kids were born. That explains why his biographers while addressing him as Lord, are vague on descriptions of his wife Vojsava. Barletius faithful to his panegyric makes her a princess, with high virtues, which sees a dream with a dragoon before giving birth to Scanderbeg etc, but please note that Gjon Muzaka which was himself a noble and is very careful with family links, noble blood and genealogies, says only that she came from a good family and was related to Muzaka. Aigest (talk) 08:41, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- P.S. I remember reading somewhere (probably Noli) the interpretation that probably she was not of such a high social status. In the end the father of Skanderbeg was not an influential person at the time of his marriage and appears on the sources only in 1407, after Skanderbeg (his last of four sons but probably other daughters were between) was born. Muzaka chronicle is right in claiming that he had originally only two villages in his domain, because he is virtually unknown up to 1407, so not worthy of marrying noble figures. Yes he became a local figure and ruler but long after (probably all) his kids were born. That explains why his biographers while addressing him as Lord, are vague on descriptions of his wife Vojsava. Barletius faithful to his panegyric makes her a princess, with high virtues, which sees a dream with a dragoon before giving birth to Scanderbeg etc, but please note that Gjon Muzaka which was himself a noble and is very careful with family links, noble blood and genealogies, says only that she came from a good family and was related to Muzaka. Aigest (talk) 08:41, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks, Antidiskriminator. Allow me a bit of time to review all of this material. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 18:23, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- Take as much time as you need.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:01, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
I am glad to see that some users appreciate Musachi's chronicle as a reliable source. I have a copy of the book and I can edit the relevant articles accordingly. It seems that some editors do not have access to the original or they prefer selective use of it. Thus:
From the Musachi's Chronicle, published by CharlesHopf in Chroniques Greco-Romanes, Berlin, 1873.:
Regarding Andronica (not "Donica"): p. 291. "E di bisogno notificare, ... , che la Signora Scanderbega, il suo proprio nome era Andronica de casa Comninata o vero Comnino, ma per il nome del marito se chiama Scanderbega. E questa m' era consobrina carnale de mio padre quale fu maritata col Signor Arainit (sic) Comnino, e cossi me vene consobrina carnale, nati de fratello e sorella. "
p. 278. " Del vero dicono la nostra progenie procede dalla citta de Costantinopoli, e vennero a dominare in Albania l' Epiro. ".
That is, Musachi is proud of his bloood relation with the Royal House of Comnenos, originally from Asia Minor, and states that his ancestors came from Constantinople to Albania.
Who is Albanian then? --Euzen (talk) 18:11, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- Again, you are inviting a topic which is not within the scope of this article.
- Anyway, Andronica was from the Arianiti family, not the Musachi. Her great-great-grandmother was from the Comneneos dynasty.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 19:04, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
Okay, I've read through all of this, and I think Petrovski's opinion should be included in the article. This source seems to be a legitimate scholarly article, and those arguing that it shouldn't be used seem to be saying that the problem is that Petrovski is wrong. This presupposes that we'd be presenting Petrovski's opinion as fact. That's not the case. Instead, we'd be presenting it as one historian's opinion, not as the scholarly consensus on the subject. It would probably be best to have a whole section discussing different historians' opinions on the question of Vojsava's ethnicity. Thoughts? A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 16:08, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, I've read through all of this, and I think Petrovski's opinion should Not be included in the article. This source didn't seemed to be a legitimate scholarly article, and those arguing that it should be used seem to be saying that the problem is that Petrovski is right. --Vinie007 16:46, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- School example of the trolling comment... --WhiteWriter speaks 21:32, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- I myself take no position as to whether Petrovski is wrong or right. Vinie007, would you mind providing an explanation of why you believe this is not a legitimate scholarly article? A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 17:14, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- @ASW: I agree with the attribution of the view to Petrovski if this is included, so a According to... will solve it. However, I don't know if his view should be as equally possible to that of the Hodgkinson-Abulafia work.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:33, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- I Agree with A Stop at Willoughby opinion. Petrovski is very clear and legitimate source, that represent part of the misty life of this person. --WhiteWriter speaks 21:32, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you A Stop at Willoughby. I agree with all of your proposals.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:23, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- I Agree with A Stop at Willoughby opinion. Petrovski is very clear and legitimate source, that represent part of the misty life of this person. --WhiteWriter speaks 21:32, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- @ASW: I agree with the attribution of the view to Petrovski if this is included, so a According to... will solve it. However, I don't know if his view should be as equally possible to that of the Hodgkinson-Abulafia work.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:33, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- I myself take no position as to whether Petrovski is wrong or right. Vinie007, would you mind providing an explanation of why you believe this is not a legitimate scholarly article? A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 17:14, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
Sprinkling a pinch of "Abulafia" in the discussion does not alter Hodgkinson's image as a non-expert overtly pro-Albanian author. I don't see in the references of the article any Abulafia's work. Any way, articles are not a place for comparisons between authors. ALL views should be reflected in an article. --Euzen (talk) 20:15, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
- This page has been semi-protected so that only autoconfirmed users can edit it. I am not auto-confirmed user, if I am not wrong. Will some auto-confirmed user follow the consensus and perform edits to follow the proposal of A Stop at Willoughby?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:27, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
- Just write down in here final version, i will include it. --WhiteWriter speaks 13:36, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
- I think I just now realised what auto-confirmed means (accounts that are both more than four days old and have made at least 10 edits are considered autoconfirmed). If I understood it correctly I think I meet the criteria for auto-confirmed users and therefore I will soon perform edits to follow the proposal of A Stop at Willoughby.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:18, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
- I created section for presenting "different historians' opinions on the question of Vojsava's ethnicity". At the beginning I clearly stated that historians have different opinion about her ethnicity. Then I included Petrovski's opinion about her Serbian ethnicity presented "as one historian's opinion, not as the scholarly consensus on the subject". --Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:06, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- If there are more contemporary historians who researched Vojsava's ethnicity and published their opinion in their work published in last 20 years please add such information in the section about Vojsava's ethnicity.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:19, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- I created section for presenting "different historians' opinions on the question of Vojsava's ethnicity". At the beginning I clearly stated that historians have different opinion about her ethnicity. Then I included Petrovski's opinion about her Serbian ethnicity presented "as one historian's opinion, not as the scholarly consensus on the subject". --Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:06, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- I think I just now realised what auto-confirmed means (accounts that are both more than four days old and have made at least 10 edits are considered autoconfirmed). If I understood it correctly I think I meet the criteria for auto-confirmed users and therefore I will soon perform edits to follow the proposal of A Stop at Willoughby.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:18, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
- Just write down in here final version, i will include it. --WhiteWriter speaks 13:36, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
- This page has been semi-protected so that only autoconfirmed users can edit it. I am not auto-confirmed user, if I am not wrong. Will some auto-confirmed user follow the consensus and perform edits to follow the proposal of A Stop at Willoughby?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:27, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
(unindent)Boban Petrovski is the scientific community? Please read WP:POV. Btw why didn't Abulafia and Hodgkinson? A professor of the University of Cambridge belongs to RS and wasn't that Bulgarian author you added refuted on the past discussions?--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 11:33, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- Hodgkinson is not historian, and he did not publish his work in last 20 years. I will repeat what I wrote in my above comment: If there are more contemporary historians who researched Vojsava's ethnicity and published their opinion in their work published in last 20 years please add such information in the section about Vojsava's ethnicity. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:41, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- Abulafia wrote intro of the book of Hodkinson. If Abulafia researched Vojsava's ethnicity, please be so kind to present his work and quote of Abulafia's opinion about Vojsava's ethnicity.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:45, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- You were right about Bulgarian historian. There was one user who wrote that her opinion might be synth, and I deleted information based on that source. Thanks for good observation. She is the only contemporary historian that I know who did not support her Serbian origin, and that was the reason why I included her.
- Does anybody knows any contemporary historian who published his work in last 20 years and wrote his opinion about Vojsava's ethnicity other than Serbian?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:54, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- I added all the reliable ones and btw her work isn't just WP:SYNTH but a blatant mirepresentation of sources. She claims that the quote she found on an anonymous work verifies the Bulgarian claim, but the work isn't anonymous(google books) and except for Polog being labeled as a region of Bulgaria, there's nothing about Vojsava herself. As for attribution of authorship: every book is a collective effort. When many scholars write a book together they don't just assign tasks without checking and verifying what the rest wrote. Btw don't add so many ref parameters that won't be used.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 12:00, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- We reached consensus to create section presenting "different historians' opinions on the question of Vojsava's ethnicity". You violated that consensus and added opinions of non-historian Hodgkinson. You also violated RSN and RfC which requested that we should use only works of contemporary historians published in last 20 years. Will you please be so kind to explain why you used RSN and RfC to remove only sources about her Slav origin and you ignored RSN and RfC in case of sources about her non-Slavic origin?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:32, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- The latest RSN about Noli, Hodgkinson etc. [15] i.e Hodgkinson etc. are RS.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:35, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- We reached consensus to create section presenting "different historians' opinions on the question of Vojsava's ethnicity". You violated that consensus and added opinions of non-historian Hodgkinson. You also violated RSN and RfC which requested that we should use only works of contemporary historians published in last 20 years. Will you please be so kind to explain why you used RSN and RfC to remove only sources about her Slav origin and you ignored RSN and RfC in case of sources about her non-Slavic origin?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:32, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- I added all the reliable ones and btw her work isn't just WP:SYNTH but a blatant mirepresentation of sources. She claims that the quote she found on an anonymous work verifies the Bulgarian claim, but the work isn't anonymous(google books) and except for Polog being labeled as a region of Bulgaria, there's nothing about Vojsava herself. As for attribution of authorship: every book is a collective effort. When many scholars write a book together they don't just assign tasks without checking and verifying what the rest wrote. Btw don't add so many ref parameters that won't be used.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 12:00, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- Abulafia wrote intro of the book of Hodkinson. If Abulafia researched Vojsava's ethnicity, please be so kind to present his work and quote of Abulafia's opinion about Vojsava's ethnicity.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:45, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
Detailed analysis/rationale
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- The RSN you referred to never concluded that "Hodgkinson etc. are RS." Let me cite the conclusion of the RSN you referred to: Now... where did I leave that ten foot pole?....I think what is required is a fifteen foot.... --Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:11, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- @Antid read the latest RSN(And looking at the other sources ... they all seem reliable to me. Again, is there a reason you question them?) about Hodgkinson and Noli i.e please stick to it. Btw haven't you already started another refuted section(by Andrew Lancaster) about Hodgkinson[18]? You have been refuted twice already i.e please stick to both RSNs.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:18, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- Zjarri, your edits are violation of consensus. Please, first you have to gain agreement for those edits. --WhiteWriter speaks 15:21, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not violating any consensus because you have been already refuted about Noli and Hodgkinson twice and there is no source claiming anything about scientific consensus which is a blatant POV and OR.--15:27, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- I am very sorry, but did you even read discussion from above? --WhiteWriter speaks 15:30, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- Please stick to the RSNs and don't attribute OR to any source (i.e scientific consensus).--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:32, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- Zjarri, read discussion from above! You didnt read it. See Antidskriminator's Detailed analysis/rationale box. I dont know what are you talking above, we have consensus for this version. --WhiteWriter speaks 15:34, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- Antid has made the same comments over and over again and two RSNs are in favour of adding the sources. Btw we agreed to add Petrovski's view(which nobody removed) and all other views and not about Antid's OR of scientific consensus.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:37, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- Totally agree with Zjarri. Please do not manipulate this story WhiteWriters and Antidiskriminator! No consensus was reached about this part! --Vinie007 15:50, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- Which part? :) If you write unsupported, trolling comments despite useful arguments and agreements, that still doesn't mean that we dont have consensus. Read posts from above. And you are welcome to start normal discussion, without trolling and sabotage. As you may see, we are moving from the starting point. This version of the article is by far better than older ones we had. It is moving toward neutral article, but its not yet there. Also, that sentence you included is misinterpretation of the source, as Noli nowhere personally presented that opinion in that book. --WhiteWriter speaks 17:32, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- Totally agree with Zjarri. Please do not manipulate this story WhiteWriters and Antidiskriminator! No consensus was reached about this part! --Vinie007 15:50, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- Antid has made the same comments over and over again and two RSNs are in favour of adding the sources. Btw we agreed to add Petrovski's view(which nobody removed) and all other views and not about Antid's OR of scientific consensus.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:37, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- Zjarri, read discussion from above! You didnt read it. See Antidskriminator's Detailed analysis/rationale box. I dont know what are you talking above, we have consensus for this version. --WhiteWriter speaks 15:34, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- Please stick to the RSNs and don't attribute OR to any source (i.e scientific consensus).--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:32, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- I am very sorry, but did you even read discussion from above? --WhiteWriter speaks 15:30, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not violating any consensus because you have been already refuted about Noli and Hodgkinson twice and there is no source claiming anything about scientific consensus which is a blatant POV and OR.--15:27, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- Zjarri, your edits are violation of consensus. Please, first you have to gain agreement for those edits. --WhiteWriter speaks 15:21, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- @Antid read the latest RSN(And looking at the other sources ... they all seem reliable to me. Again, is there a reason you question them?) about Hodgkinson and Noli i.e please stick to it. Btw haven't you already started another refuted section(by Andrew Lancaster) about Hodgkinson[18]? You have been refuted twice already i.e please stick to both RSNs.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:18, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- The RSN you referred to never concluded that "Hodgkinson etc. are RS." Let me cite the conclusion of the RSN you referred to: Now... where did I leave that ten foot pole?....I think what is required is a fifteen foot.... --Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:11, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
No "consensus" is needed if we simply stick to WP rule that "all views should be reflected in an article". Although the Albanian writers and Hodginson are not reliable on subjects that are crucial for the Albanian National Myth, their inclusion would do no harm to the article. But excluding the mainstream view that Vojasava was Serbian would turn the article to a farce. I propose a list of primary, secondary and modern sources, like in the Skanderbeg article.--Euzen (talk) 19:37, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- It is you who is turning the work of a well-regarded scholar (Fan Noli) into farce. WP:RS says "Completed dissertations or theses written as part of the requirements for a PhD, and which are publicly available, are considered publications by scholars and are routinely cited in footnotes. They have been vetted by the scholarly community..." Fan Noli's work is a PhD thesis which was reviewed by the staff of the University of Boston, one of the best universities in America. (And do we need to add that Noli was also a Harvard graduate?) Relegating him to "just another Albanian scholar" is very bad faith on your part. Furthermore, Noli bases his statement off what Muzaka says, not off his own opinion.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:17, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- Agree with Euzen. Instead of that stupidity that tons of sources are not good for the article, list will do the job. --WhiteWriter speaks 19:49, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- Per both RSNs Noli and Hodgkinson are RS and WW please stick to the consensus about the sources. Btw if you don't cite the science community sentence you reverted I'll add back the sourced and npov version.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:51, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- I dont know what are you talking about. science community sentence is pointless, sorry. If you ask again what do you want me to swhow you, i might help. What science community? Where? And if you revert again, despite agreement and conversation on talk page, i will report you. Simple as that. Your slow motion edit warring is out of order for a quite some time. --WhiteWriter speaks 19:58, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- Ooo, i found it! But that is not mine, Antidiskriminator add it, not me. It is obvious per all sources presented, but we may use source for that. I will tag for fact, and antidiskriminator should add source he used. --WhiteWriter speaks 20:05, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- Because Vojsava was not subject of satisfactory interest of scientific community her genealogy ended with her general Slavic origin. [BP2 1]
- Per both RSNs Noli and Hodgkinson are RS and WW please stick to the consensus about the sources. Btw if you don't cite the science community sentence you reverted I'll add back the sourced and npov version.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:51, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- ^ Petrovski, Boban (2006), Воисава Трибалда (Voisava Tribalda) (PDF) (in Macedonian), Skopje, p. 1,
Мајката на Георги Кастриот-Скендербег, Воисава, досега не била предмет на задоволителен интерес во научната јавност. Така, генеалошкото стебло на Скендербег по мајчина линија завршувало само со податок за нејзиното лично име и, наместа, со општа одреденица за нејзино словенско потекло.... Mother of Georg Kastriot Skanderbeg, Vojsava, till now was not subject of satisfactory interest of scientific public. Therefore, genealogical three of Skanderbeg on mother's side ended with information about her first name, instead, and with her general Slavic origin.
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- That's not what Antid. claimed about scientific communities etc. and is Petrovski's view.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:45, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- As far as I can tell, Abulafia only wrote the introduction to the book by Hodgkinson. Am I correct in understanding that the parts of this source being used for to support text in this article were not part of that introduction? A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 20:22, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- Fan Noli is misinterpreted by Zjarri. As Gaius told above: "Noli bases his statement off what Muzaka says, not off his own opinion", therefor, as we already have Muzaka, Noli is just doubled in here. We don't have Noli's personal opinion in this article, we have only his citing of the Muzaka statement. Also, Babinger, Franz is not about Vojsava, but Noli, and should be deleted from this article. This version IS NOT the best and most comprehensive. Very, very awful editing habits by several editor in here. --WhiteWriter speaks 20:48, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- WW Noli's view is attributed to him regardless of his source. On the other hand Petrovski's view isn't based on any source and yet he was added per NPOV i.e please attribute views as the rest of the editors. Babinger is about Noli and I added the same minor info about Petrovski too. @StopAtWilloughby: All the people involved in the collective support the same views(actually you can find that on every author's contract with his publishing house regarding collective works), but if think that's a bit OR I can change the sentece to in the work written by <all authors> names etc. This is derailing again to minor details: WW if you make any other edits please don't add again the science community misrepresentation of Antid.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:57, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- @ZjarriRrethues: I will repeat my question that you ignored:
- Will you please be so kind and take look at the text of the article. Noli is used to reference information that Vojsava "was a princess from a family of Upper Polog". Then you used the same work of Noli (note 33) to support your claim that Noli ;considers her a member of the Muzaka family" although Muzaka family never lived in Polog. Also, the link you provided does not support the text in the article (Fan Noli, ... considers her a member of the Muzaka family). That link shows a note (number 33) which says: “Muzaka na thotë se Vojsava ishte shqiptare nga familija e Muzakajve.”. Will you please be so kind to translate this sentence?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:26, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- I noticed that ZjarriRrethues did not reply to my question to translate one short sentence that he referenced in the text of the article. Since he did not reply I wrote him a message on his talk page. Because it is connected with this article, please find below the text of the message I wrote to him:
- I kindly remind you that I asked you three times on the Talk:Vojsava Tripalda to help us and translate one sentence:
- diff That link shows a note (number 33) which says: “Muzaka na thotë se Vojsava ishte shqiptare nga familija e Muzakajve.”. Will you please be so kind to translate this sentence?
- diff That link shows a note (number 33) which says: “Muzaka na thotë se Vojsava ishte shqiptare nga familija e Muzakajve.”. Will you please be so kind to translate this sentence?
- diff I will resume the questions that you ZjarriRrethues did not reply:... translation of one short sentence on Albanian language...
- @ZjarriRrethues: I will repeat my question that you ignored:
- WW Noli's view is attributed to him regardless of his source. On the other hand Petrovski's view isn't based on any source and yet he was added per NPOV i.e please attribute views as the rest of the editors. Babinger is about Noli and I added the same minor info about Petrovski too. @StopAtWilloughby: All the people involved in the collective support the same views(actually you can find that on every author's contract with his publishing house regarding collective works), but if think that's a bit OR I can change the sentece to in the work written by <all authors> names etc. This is derailing again to minor details: WW if you make any other edits please don't add again the science community misrepresentation of Antid.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:57, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- In case that you did not see my questions I repeated them here. Please be so kind to help us and write translation of above mentioned short sentence (“Muzaka na thotë se Vojsava ishte shqiptare nga familija e Muzakajve.”) on the Talk:Vojsava Tripalda--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:04, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
Link's required
Well, i ask Zjarri and Gaius for 3 things, and 3 quotes. Many months ago Antidiskriminator asked for this, and we dont have answers yet. I will copy paste those questions.
- Gjon Muzaka. Can you provide information about the book written by Muzaka and quote of his claim that Vojsava was Albanian?
- Harry Hodgkinson. In the quote Harry Hodgkinson says: "She [Voisava] seems to have belonged to the Musachi" but he do not claim she is Albanian, so this may be SYNTH. Are you able to provide details of the work and quote with claim that Vojsava was Albanian? Here is a link that contains information that David Abulafia only wrote the introduction to this book, not the text of the book with the claim that Vojsava was Albanian. The text of the book was written by Harry Hodgkinson, who was not historian. He was British intelligence officer famous for his Anti-Serbian attitude. If I am wrong, please provide a quote written by David Abulafia that Vojsava was Albanian?
- Fan Noli: In the provided link Noli wrote about what Hopf, Musachi and Barletius wrote about her. Will you please provide a quote with Noli's claim that she was Albanian?
After those 3 answers and link's, i will agree that this version is the most neutral and the best one. With this false misinterpretation of the quotes, i cannot agree on that. So, diff's please. --WhiteWriter speaks 21:21, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- I have already explained about the Abulafia issue above and can make the change I proposed if you think that it's OR to attribute it. There's no OR about Noli, Hodgkinson etc. because I attributed their views as stated in their works i.e I merely wrote Muzaka family and not Albanian Muzaka family. Of course if someone wants to find out more about the Muzaka family he can read the article. As for the RS I already linked to two RSNs.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:31, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- Link's please. 3 link's, with 3 sentences. --WhiteWriter speaks 21:33, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- [19] the snippet on the English version just says 1 match found so read the Albanian version and btw please read WP:OBVIOUS. I'll continue tomorrow if in the meantime nobody else has added the rest.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:38, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for that link ZjarriRrethues. Is it a footnote reference of the following text written by Noli: He married Voisava Tripalda of Polog,(33) who bore him four sons and five daughters. George, the youngest of his sons, became famous under the Turkish surname of Scanderbeg, but we know very little about the three others.? If it is, why did you use footnote reference which explains what other people (like Karl Hopf, Gjon Muzaka or Marin Barleti) wrote instead of the text written by Fan Noli? Is it mistake or it is because Muzaka family lived in Berat, not Polog?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:54, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- The Muzaka family had its capital at Berat, but they didn't exclusively live in Berat. I don't know if its a footnote of that sentence since the Albanian version is 322 pages, while the English one has 240 pages. WW has already added the quotes of Hodgkinson and regarding his SYNTH comments: There's no OR Hodgkinson etc. because I attributed their views as stated in their works i.e I merely wrote Muzaka family and not Albanian Muzaka family.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:15, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
- @ZjarriRrethues: Will you please be so kind and take look at the text of the article. Noli is used to reference information that Vojsava "was a princess from a family of Upper Polog". Then you used the same work of Noli (note 33) to support your claim that Noli ;considers her a member of the Muzaka family" although Muzaka family never lived in Polog. Also, the link you provided does not support the text in the article (Fan Noli, ... considers her a member of the Muzaka family). That link shows a note (number 33) which says: “Muzaka na thotë se Vojsava ishte shqiptare nga familija e Muzakajve.”. Will you please be so kind to translate this sentence?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:32, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
- The Muzaka family had its capital at Berat, but they didn't exclusively live in Berat. I don't know if its a footnote of that sentence since the Albanian version is 322 pages, while the English one has 240 pages. WW has already added the quotes of Hodgkinson and regarding his SYNTH comments: There's no OR Hodgkinson etc. because I attributed their views as stated in their works i.e I merely wrote Muzaka family and not Albanian Muzaka family.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:15, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for that link ZjarriRrethues. Is it a footnote reference of the following text written by Noli: He married Voisava Tripalda of Polog,(33) who bore him four sons and five daughters. George, the youngest of his sons, became famous under the Turkish surname of Scanderbeg, but we know very little about the three others.? If it is, why did you use footnote reference which explains what other people (like Karl Hopf, Gjon Muzaka or Marin Barleti) wrote instead of the text written by Fan Noli? Is it mistake or it is because Muzaka family lived in Berat, not Polog?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:54, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- [19] the snippet on the English version just says 1 match found so read the Albanian version and btw please read WP:OBVIOUS. I'll continue tomorrow if in the meantime nobody else has added the rest.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:38, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- Link's please. 3 link's, with 3 sentences. --WhiteWriter speaks 21:33, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
- Apparently, Antid accused me of bad faith at a time when I was busy (and I told him I would be) for supposedly not responding to his question even though I did. Anyway, here goes:
- [20] This is the link to Carl Hopf's compilation of primary sources (ie. Hopf himself did not write it). On page 308, we can see Musachi linking Voisava to his family.
- The rest are already given.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:23, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
- @Gaius Claudius Nero. When you decided to bring back version of text written by ZjarriRrethues you participated in the ignoring the consensus, RSN and RfC as explained in detailed analysis above. Please be so kind to respect consensus, RSN and RfC when editing this article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:12, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
- Where's the consensus?--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 03:29, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- Do you mean the two RSNs according to which they're RS? In fact on your own RSN Andrew Lancaster explained why it's reliable and at that time you didn't object him so why are you trying again to remove the source with similar arguments? Btw you're quoting different pages and attributing SYNTH to them.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:25, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
Detailed answer to ZjarriRrethues
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- I will resume the questions that you ZjarriRrethues did not reply:
- translation of one short sentence on Albanian language and
- the explanation about the note 33.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:21, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- @Gaius Claudius Nero. You wrote that: "Kristo Frashëri...says she's Albanian", "Harry Hodgkinson...says she's Albanian", "Fan Noli says she's Albanian"... I asked you many times, first time more than a month ago (April 9th) to clarify your claims and to provide details (works and quotations) which prove your claims that Frasheri, Hodgkinson and Noli said that “she's Albanian”. Without SYNTH (without quotes about what some other people said).
- I did not accuse you for bad faith. I noticed that in the meantime you were online, that you edited this article (diff) and its talk page (diff, diff) and many other articles and talk pages (more than 250 edits). That was the reason why I reminded you that you should take care about One who ignores or refuses to answer good faith questions from other editors.
- Till now, you only provided quotes about Muzaka claiming Vojsava being member of Muzaka.
- Let me ask you one simple question and please let us have your honest (and soon) answer: Are you able to support your claims that Frasheri, Hodgkinson and Noli said that “she's Albanian”? If you are, please do so. If not, please admit it. I promise I will not report your misinterpretations.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:21, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- And I asked for an answer to my question, not another accusation and a threat to report me. There's no room for recriminations here.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:24, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- I will resume the questions that you ZjarriRrethues did not reply:
- Antid and WhiteWriter, please stop making useless accusations: there hasn't been any consensus on this: All I see is you two bickering about a useless fringe theory of a Macedonian scholar, who bases his claims on nothing, unless you two can show otherwise. --Doktor Plumbi (talk) 02:10, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- Antid. the search doesn't show you which page uses that footnote, but the frequency of the word. Btw the quote from Hodgkinson's work was added by WW and there's no misrepresentation.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:33, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- As none added links, as i asked kindly, i will reverted to the status quo version, without section in question, and after we agree here, we will include that section also... --WhiteWriter speaks 18:39, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- We agreed to include Petrovski's opinion, everything is sourced, two RSNs are enough for the RS and if you add back the science community OR POV it'll be disruptive. Btw you have all the links for all views so what exactly are you trying to find? Even the one for Muzaka has been added twice during this discussion i.e all views have been attributed. If you want to reword some of the content then that's a debatable issue but as long as everything is sourced in the current version that's the issue.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:55, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- Well, now i have a proof that you don't even read posts by others, and just constantly repeat your POV. Did you even see link with status quo spot? It is in the blue link in my post above... :) --WhiteWriter speaks 19:29, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- And as we agreed to attribute the views and not dichotomize them this is the current status quo version as you called it.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:44, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- No, this peace of ... art that we have in article now is definitely not status quo, as few users told you. It you dont like status quo sentence, then it will be reverted to the status quo ante. You didn't add ANY relevant link, as none of those sentences in the article are not presented in the sources. Noli and Harry Hodgkinson and David Abulafia didnt told ANYTHING about their PERSONAL OPINION regarding that data. I DON'T DISPUTE SOURCES, but only their usage in this sentences. Sorry for caps lock, i just wanted to point it out clearly... --WhiteWriter speaks 20:13, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- And as we agreed to attribute the views and not dichotomize them this is the current status quo version as you called it.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:44, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- Well, now i have a proof that you don't even read posts by others, and just constantly repeat your POV. Did you even see link with status quo spot? It is in the blue link in my post above... :) --WhiteWriter speaks 19:29, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- We agreed to include Petrovski's opinion, everything is sourced, two RSNs are enough for the RS and if you add back the science community OR POV it'll be disruptive. Btw you have all the links for all views so what exactly are you trying to find? Even the one for Muzaka has been added twice during this discussion i.e all views have been attributed. If you want to reword some of the content then that's a debatable issue but as long as everything is sourced in the current version that's the issue.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:55, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- As none added links, as i asked kindly, i will reverted to the status quo version, without section in question, and after we agree here, we will include that section also... --WhiteWriter speaks 18:39, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- Antid. the search doesn't show you which page uses that footnote, but the frequency of the word. Btw the quote from Hodgkinson's work was added by WW and there's no misrepresentation.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:33, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
Proposition for the section in question
== Ethnicity ==
Historians have different opinions about her ethnicity. Macedonian historian Boban Petrovski, an associate professor of the University of Skopje, supports an opinion of the part of western historiography that her ethnicity is Serbian from the House of Brankovic.[1][2] According to the Muzaka Chronicle written by Gjon Muzaka, she was a member of the Muzaka family.[3]
- ^ Schmitt, Oliver Jens, Kosovo: kurze Geschichte einer zentralbalkanischen Landschaft,
Ein Teil Seiner familie floh zu Skanderbeg, der selbst mit den Brankovići verwandt war. Einen ethnischen Gegensatz zwischen Serben und Albanern kann man in der Elite Mittelalter nicht festsellen - die engen Verbindungen des serbischen und albanischen orthodoxen Adels allein schon standen dem ent gegen: Skanderbegs Mutter war wohl eine Brankovic, und sein Sohn Ivan heiratete eine Brankovic (Irene).
- ^ Petrovski, Boban, Воисава Трибалда (Voisava Tribalda) (PDF),
Доколку ја прифатиме оваа варијанта, според која Бранковиките биле господари на/во Полог до почетког на последната деценија од XIV век, во тој случај произлегува дека Воисава била керка на Гргур или пак, можеби на Вук Бранковик.
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(help); More than one of|author=
and|last=
specified (help); Text "archiveurl" ignored (help) - ^ Fan Noli p. 189, note 33.
Now, what next? More sources? Which order? What is your proposition? --WhiteWriter speaks 20:31, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- We agreed to add all views and that was completed. There's no SYNTH, which has been your point throughout the discussion as all that is stated in the article is Muzaka family per the sources and the section can't get more comprehensive so only the wording is debatable. So what part of the wording do you think that should be changed(make a full list, you have enough time as I'll reply after c. 10 hours)?--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:19, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Yes, as wording should be changed, we will remove wrong version until we agree. --WhiteWriter speaks 20:31, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- I reverted, one last time on this page, Vinnie, as he/she just blindly reverted without ANY writings on talk page. In this situation, this may be understood as vandalism. Please, Zjarri, translate us the sentence above user Antidiskriminator asked. Thanks in advance! I hope that we will be able to address this subject, without reverts and sabotage. Just talk people! Why is that such a problem! Users and not satisfied with current version, lets fix it, in peace and good humor! Without WWI trench fighting... --WhiteWriter speaks 10:02, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- Revert the removing of sources by whitewriter --Vinie007 11:38, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- @WW: So far you're the only who's been reverting that version and the sentence means From Muzaka we learn that/Muzaka informs us that she was Albanian from the Muzaka family. Btw why didn't you include Hodgkinson etc. in this draft?--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:50, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
- Revert the removing of sources by whitewriter --Vinie007 11:38, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
Vojsava Tripalda?
Why is the article's name "Tripalda"? There is no explanation.
Since we've already ascertained that that means "Vojsava of the Serbs/Triballians", there would be same sense to call the article "Vojsava Serbianna". :D — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.110.242.173 (talk) 19:34, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
Stefan Stres Balsha
Who on Earth is Stefan Stres Balsha? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AVNOJist (talk • contribs) 17:50, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
Stuck
This template must be substituted.
- From Muzaka we learn that/Muzaka informs us that she was Albanian from the Muzaka family. That is how ZjarriRrethues translated above mentioned sentence.
- Musachi tells us that Voisava was Albanian from the Musachi family. That is how this sentence is translated in text of the work.
- Fan Noli,....considers her a member of the Muzaka family... That is the text ZjarriRrethues wrote based on above mentioned sentence.
I asked ZjarriRrethues for his translation more than once (diff, diff, diff, diff and diff) because I wanted to give him a chance to realise his mistake and misinterpretation of the source.
I already explained to ZjarriRrethues that:
- in the same work Noli directly stated that Vojsava "was a princess from a family of Upper Polog" (which could not be Muzaka family because Polog is more than 300km away from Berat, a seat of Muzachi family who never controled Polog or lived in it)
- note 33 contains Noli's explanation about what Muzaka, Hopf and Barletius said about Vojsava's family, not his opinion
- based on the RSN we should use only works preferably written in past 20 years by contemporary historians who directly supported claim about Vojsava's ethnicity or family, not SYNTH of citing what other people said (Noli does not meet this criteria, regardless of his (non)reliability)
I think he refused to understand arguments presented to him and that he continued to insist on his SYNTH misinterpretations.
If we do not follow consensus, RSN, RfC and sources and if we refuse to accept arguments of other users, than we can not edit wikipedia.
I think that we are now stuck and I don't see how we can progress with the article in this situation.
Any proposals?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:05, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
- You're attributing SYNTH to Noli i.e from Polog valley doesn't mean not from the Muzaka family, that's your attribution. The Muzaka family used to hold a large area including even regions like Kastoria i.e please stick to the sources and don't attribute to them OR. Based on the latest RSN Noli can be used as he is after all the standard biographer for Skanderbeg. Noli mentions only once that issue and does so by using Muzaka, whose work(chronicle) he considers very important and that's why he uses it as a source. If you want to change the wording propose a new one, but don't IDHT about Noli, whom you consider unreliable as you considered unreliable Hodgkinson even after two RSNs. --— ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:30, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
- Zjarri, you are again, and again just repeating same words... We all must cooperate and compromise somehow. As nothing else helped, WP:AN may.... Unfortunately... I will also ask for third opinion. --WhiteWriter speaks 12:50, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- WW you started an AN discussion and asked for admin reaction, although you're the only user, who has been reverting that section[21][22][23], has been accusing other users of vandalism[24] when they revert him and then starting last warning sections on their talkpages. You were reverting with edit summaries saying that the sources are unreliable, but when asked about that you were immediately denying it [25]. I think that we should stick to the RSNs and the latest opinion about the inclusion of all views and as for compromise for the last couple of days you've been asked to propose a rewording based on current sources, if you disagree with the present version.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:23, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- As you always do, you misinterpreted everything you wrote. I am the only user who tried to put article in the status quo version until we agree, while the rest just quit! Trenching fight is too much for most users. How can you present this is such a way? Blind trolling revert, without talk page intro, with same edit summary, is school example of disruptive editing, trolling, and vandalism. Last warning is there as user was ALREADY warned by other users that such behavior is unacceptable. Zjarri, add your proposition of the section in question, and we will talk about it. I already proposed my version above! As you dont understood, i will write yet again. I dont dispute sources, but sources usage in such a way. You incorrectly quoted and presented sources in this article! We don't have personal opinion of neither Noli, nor Harry Hodgkinson nor David Abulafia, but only Muzaka, and all of them just mention Muzaka as source! "Musachi tells us.." That is not personal opinion. Do you understand now what we are asking? After sixth post? --WhiteWriter speaks 14:38, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- WW you started an AN discussion and asked for admin reaction, although you're the only user, who has been reverting that section[21][22][23], has been accusing other users of vandalism[24] when they revert him and then starting last warning sections on their talkpages. You were reverting with edit summaries saying that the sources are unreliable, but when asked about that you were immediately denying it [25]. I think that we should stick to the RSNs and the latest opinion about the inclusion of all views and as for compromise for the last couple of days you've been asked to propose a rewording based on current sources, if you disagree with the present version.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:23, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- Zjarri, you are again, and again just repeating same words... We all must cooperate and compromise somehow. As nothing else helped, WP:AN may.... Unfortunately... I will also ask for third opinion. --WhiteWriter speaks 12:50, 29 May 2011 (UTC)