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*'''Oppose''' the Republicans have been right-wing on both social and economic issues while the Democrats have been center-right on economic issues and left-wing on social issues. How about just putting it that way? [[User:EllenCT|EllenCT]] ([[User talk:EllenCT|talk]]) 23:37, 31 May 2015 (UTC) |
*'''Oppose''' the Republicans have been right-wing on both social and economic issues while the Democrats have been center-right on economic issues and left-wing on social issues. How about just putting it that way? [[User:EllenCT|EllenCT]] ([[User talk:EllenCT|talk]]) 23:37, 31 May 2015 (UTC) |
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:*The proposed clause above doesn't mention "right" or "left" in any variation. What exactly are you opposing? [[User:VictorD7|VictorD7]] ([[User talk:VictorD7|talk]]) 01:43, 1 June 2015 (UTC) |
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=== Progressiveness of taxes and fiscal policy === |
=== Progressiveness of taxes and fiscal policy === |
Revision as of 01:46, 1 June 2015
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Template:Outline of knowledge coverage
Racial breakdown in Law enforcement and crime section.
Especially since there have been recent efforts to expand the section again anyway, it's long way past time to revisit this old problematic segment:
"African-American males are jailed at about six times the rate of white males and three times the rate of Hispanic males."
Having a racial breakdown of incarceration rate without also including a racial breakdown on crime rate is inflammatory and misleading. We should either delete the racial sentence or add a segment on racial crime rates. Racial crime rates can be found through many sources, including the FBI's site. Drugs (sans racial breakdown) are mentioned separately in a following segment, but I'm talking about things like murder offender and victim rate broken down by race, and possibly some other items like juvenile offender or gang membership rates by race. Without tying it to disparate crime rates, the current segment could be interpreted by readers who don't know any better as meaning the US is simply rounding people up and incarcerating them at a shocking racial disparity solely because of their skin color. VictorD7 (talk) 20:13, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- By all means, let's include the difference in minorities' population proportion with their arrest rates per suspect race reported, charges requiring a mandatory minimum sentence, plea bargain offers, jury verdict outcomes, sentencing outcomes, and execution rates compared to whites.[1] EllenCT (talk) 23:07, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- <INSERT>Sidestepping your link to an advocacy group, I'm guessing even they don't deny that blacks commit crimes at much higher rates than non blacks, a fact far more salient in societal impact than alleged disparities of a few percent in court system treatment (which can arguably be explained by unaccounted for variables other than racial discrimination anyway), something the section currently doesn't mention. Nor are victimization rates mentioned. Most crime is intraracial (e.g. black on black, white on white), and blacks are victims of murder and other serious crimes at far higher rates than whites, so it's not like "the system" is skewing the stats by letting a lot of white murderers go free while only rounding up blacks for some reason. VictorD7 (talk) 21:42, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- The disparities are far more than a few percent, as both of my links show through the objective sources they cite, which are easily verified in academic studies and reliable media sources. What kind of sources claim that minorities commit crimes at greater rates, controlling for socioeconomic strata and education levels? EllenCT (talk) 00:49, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
- I didn't bother clicking on your overt advocacy links (because I've studied this issue and am already familiar with the arguments on both sides), but the abstract in your own link states on black/white sentencing disparity that "Pre-charge characteristics, including arrest offense and criminal history, can explain about 80% of these disparities". I suspect other variables they don't account for can explain most or all of the rest (studies on the issue are contradictory, with some actually showing more leniency toward blacks), but no one denies blacks commit crime at much higher rates. Adjusting for socioeconomic status isn't pertinent unless you were planning on adjusting incarceration rates by socioeconomic status, but since you asked there is a ton of research showing that racial crime rate differences "persist even after controlling for socioeconomic status" (p. 332). To underscore this, blacks commit homicide at roughly 7 times the rate of whites, but have only about twice the poverty rate of whites, indicating there are other cultural factors at work. It also adds nothing pertinent to this discussion, but I do appreciate you linking to the USA Today piece (I've read before) that points out disparities like those emphasized recently in the inappropriately singled out Ferguson exist all over the country, from New England to San Francisco, underscoring (yet again) what an unmitigated, intellectually dishonest, cowardly hack Eric Holder is. As the law professor from your own article states (and any honest person with some knowledge of statistics knows), "That does not mean police are discriminating." But I think we've risked derailing this discussion enough. Our very debate underscores the inappropriateness of the current article segment. Better to remove it than blow it up with an undue point/counterpoint mess. VictorD7 (talk) 21:32, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
- "what an unmitigated, intellectually dishonest, cowardly hack Eric Holder is." well as long as we're discussing improvements to the article --Golbez (talk) 21:47, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
- At the rate violent crimes have been falling, I suggest that your 1997 source based on data from a 1994 symposium is as far out of date as it is currently possible to be. Also, is it counting homicides or convictions after all of the choice points at which racial discrimination has been documented (detention, arrest, charge, plea bargain, trial)? Moreover, the alternative hypotheses based on lead poisoning are extraordinarily strong although I doubt you will bother to study them because you believe the publisher is biased. EllenCT (talk) 01:21, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
- Naahhh. Why would anyone accuse that blog you posted of bias? What's next? Predicting someone will suggest Michael Moore is biased? BTW, lead poisoning, lol? Regardless, whether it's that or cosmic rays from extraterrestrials, it doesn't refute anything I've said. I posted the Harvard study to answer your question about whether economic status sufficiently explains racial crime rate disparity (it doesn't). The ratios have stayed roughly the same since then. "In 2008 the offending rate for blacks (24.7 offenders per 100,000) was 7 times higher than the rate for whites (3.4 offenders per 100,000)." (p. 11) If I remember right such stats include witness descriptions of uncaptured suspects along with captured ones (there are also "Other" and "Unknown" categories), and is roughly similar to the victimization rates (though blacks are somewhat more likely to commit murder than be murdered), so it's not like it's a bunch of witnesses in white neighborhoods making up stories about a phantom black killer. More recent info is available if you want to spend time looking for it. Now your questions have been answered, and I think this tangent has run its course. VictorD7 (talk) 20:45, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
- I still say your 1994 data could not have been more inaccurate if you had tried. By "offender" you mean "convict," don't you? So that statistic is suspect. However, we should be able to use victims' reported race of the perpetrators for nonlethal violent offenders without suffering systematic bias, if you can find those. EllenCT (talk) 17:33, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
- No, everything I posted was accurate and I took the data up through at least 2008. Like other DOJ stats they include an "Unknown" category, since in some cases there are no witnesses, which would be bizarre if they were only counting convictions. Plus there are comments like this in the underlying data source: "The information provided on the SHR form reflects what agencies know based on their initial police investigation and does not reflect subsequent decisions made by prosecutors or courts." You should actually read the studies I quoted from. VictorD7 (talk) 20:52, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
- I still say your 1994 data could not have been more inaccurate if you had tried. By "offender" you mean "convict," don't you? So that statistic is suspect. However, we should be able to use victims' reported race of the perpetrators for nonlethal violent offenders without suffering systematic bias, if you can find those. EllenCT (talk) 17:33, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
- Naahhh. Why would anyone accuse that blog you posted of bias? What's next? Predicting someone will suggest Michael Moore is biased? BTW, lead poisoning, lol? Regardless, whether it's that or cosmic rays from extraterrestrials, it doesn't refute anything I've said. I posted the Harvard study to answer your question about whether economic status sufficiently explains racial crime rate disparity (it doesn't). The ratios have stayed roughly the same since then. "In 2008 the offending rate for blacks (24.7 offenders per 100,000) was 7 times higher than the rate for whites (3.4 offenders per 100,000)." (p. 11) If I remember right such stats include witness descriptions of uncaptured suspects along with captured ones (there are also "Other" and "Unknown" categories), and is roughly similar to the victimization rates (though blacks are somewhat more likely to commit murder than be murdered), so it's not like it's a bunch of witnesses in white neighborhoods making up stories about a phantom black killer. More recent info is available if you want to spend time looking for it. Now your questions have been answered, and I think this tangent has run its course. VictorD7 (talk) 20:45, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
- I didn't bother clicking on your overt advocacy links (because I've studied this issue and am already familiar with the arguments on both sides), but the abstract in your own link states on black/white sentencing disparity that "Pre-charge characteristics, including arrest offense and criminal history, can explain about 80% of these disparities". I suspect other variables they don't account for can explain most or all of the rest (studies on the issue are contradictory, with some actually showing more leniency toward blacks), but no one denies blacks commit crime at much higher rates. Adjusting for socioeconomic status isn't pertinent unless you were planning on adjusting incarceration rates by socioeconomic status, but since you asked there is a ton of research showing that racial crime rate differences "persist even after controlling for socioeconomic status" (p. 332). To underscore this, blacks commit homicide at roughly 7 times the rate of whites, but have only about twice the poverty rate of whites, indicating there are other cultural factors at work. It also adds nothing pertinent to this discussion, but I do appreciate you linking to the USA Today piece (I've read before) that points out disparities like those emphasized recently in the inappropriately singled out Ferguson exist all over the country, from New England to San Francisco, underscoring (yet again) what an unmitigated, intellectually dishonest, cowardly hack Eric Holder is. As the law professor from your own article states (and any honest person with some knowledge of statistics knows), "That does not mean police are discriminating." But I think we've risked derailing this discussion enough. Our very debate underscores the inappropriateness of the current article segment. Better to remove it than blow it up with an undue point/counterpoint mess. VictorD7 (talk) 21:32, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
- The disparities are far more than a few percent, as both of my links show through the objective sources they cite, which are easily verified in academic studies and reliable media sources. What kind of sources claim that minorities commit crimes at greater rates, controlling for socioeconomic strata and education levels? EllenCT (talk) 00:49, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
- <INSERT>Sidestepping your link to an advocacy group, I'm guessing even they don't deny that blacks commit crimes at much higher rates than non blacks, a fact far more salient in societal impact than alleged disparities of a few percent in court system treatment (which can arguably be explained by unaccounted for variables other than racial discrimination anyway), something the section currently doesn't mention. Nor are victimization rates mentioned. Most crime is intraracial (e.g. black on black, white on white), and blacks are victims of murder and other serious crimes at far higher rates than whites, so it's not like "the system" is skewing the stats by letting a lot of white murderers go free while only rounding up blacks for some reason. VictorD7 (talk) 21:42, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- Good find. While we're on the subject, it seems astounding to me that the Law enforcement and crime section omits any mention of the militarization of the police force, rampant police shootings (more than all other developed nations combined) and police brutality.
- I restored and modified the sentence on the privatization of prisons and cited WP:RS (two books published by academic publishers, one article from a peer-reviewed academic journal and one recent article from The New Yorker). It is certainly a notable topic given the growing controversy and worthy of one brief sentence.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 23:27, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
- You're astounded that not every pet soapbox topic you've become interested in crusading on isn't included in the article? Coverage of a "controversy" entails covering more than one side. Controversies by definition are disagreements. I haven't read all your new sources yet, but the old ones (and I'm guessing the new ones) only espouse one POV. You also haven't established that it's a noteworthy controversy for coverage here. Are private prisons regularly a major national election issue? I don't recall the last time I heard a politician mention the issue. There's also a SYNTH issue with placement. Your page version seems to imply that the high incarceration rate is at least partly due to private prisons. Since they don't convict people, I suppose you're pushing a conspiracy theory about tough sentencing resulting from a desire to please privately run prisons rather than most Americans, who have desired tough sentencing since at least the 1980s. Whether you believe that or not, this isn't the article or indeed the website for "social justice" crusading. VictorD7 (talk) 21:42, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- All you have to do is a simple google news search and see for yourself that prison privatization is a contentious issue garnering ever more media attention. Your nasty and ill-informed rant about conspiracy theories aside, what I restored (I didn't add the content originally - must be another "conspiracy theorist"!!!) and modified is backed by reliable sources.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 22:05, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- Your Google search mostly shows leftist blogs. My comments were informed and never claimed there can't be more than one conspiracy theorist. Do your sources prove that support for tough sentencing isn't due to its popularity among voters? How? Psychic powers? Or are they just giving their own opinions? You ignored everything I said about a controversy involving disagreement. Controversy - "1. A dispute, especially a public one, between sides holding opposing views." Do you care at all about covering the other side? VictorD7 (talk) 22:16, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- Oh please. The phenomenon of prison privatization has been reported in The New York Times, Al Jazeera America, Politico, Bloomberg, The Wall Street Journal, NPR, the Associated Press, et cetera. Just because it wasn't an issue in a national election (are you kidding me with this? National campaigns rarely focus on anything of substance by my estimation) doesn't mean it's not noteworthy. Not only that, but the sources I cited speak for themselves, unless you believe peer-reviewed academics and The New Yorker are peddling conspiracy theories. Your only role in this discussion appears to be setting up straw-men and attempting to knock them down. There is no basis for synth accusations as what I restored does not link incarceration rates to prison privatization, regardless of placement. As it stands now no "side" is given. That being said, while you would no doubt dismiss the following as "conspiracy theories," prison companies and ALEC have played their part in pushing for draconian laws to keep prisons filled and pressuring states to sign contracts guaranteeing 90% occupancy or higher. I did not add this content to this particular article as that would be giving undue weight to the issue. --C.J. Griffin (talk) 04:42, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
- Countless "phenomena" have been mentioned in a few articles, but at least you concede it's not a national level political issue. This is a very broad national summary article and not the place for covering any random niche issue that fits your whimsy. In addition to placement (and yes, implied conspiracy theory), the "side" is taken in what you're calling a "controversy" by all your sources being anti-private prison. If it's truly a "controversy", much less one that rises to the level of meriting coverage here, then there is by definition more than one side. You dodged my question; did you even try to find a single source from the other side? VictorD7 (talk) 21:46, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
- I have conceded no such thing; quite the opposite based on my statement about political campaigns being more fluff than substance. I can find dozens more articles on the subject reported in national and international media (i.e., The Guardian) in the last several years, indicating just how widespread the discussion of the issue has become. I'm working on a rewrite of the passage to have "controversy" removed completely given this is one of the big sticking points and replacing it with "The privatization of prisons, which began in the 1980s, has been the subject of mounting criticism in recent years," which is actually more accurate. Outside of industry funded studies and a few "reports" published in neoliberal rags and by corporate-funded think tanks, there aren't too many articles praising the for-profit prison industry; certainly nothing in peer-reviewed academic sources that I've seen.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 23:01, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
- Now you're backpedaling away from it even being a "controversy" (your original word). It's more like niche criticism from some like minded ideologues that doesn't rise to the level of meriting coverage in this brief summary article. Niche criticism in the US exists on countless topics we don't mention on this page. Many are covered in subtopic articles, which is where (neutral) discussion of private prisons belongs. For the record, acknowledging that prison privatization isn't a national election issue is hardly the "opposite" of acknowledging that it's not a national political issue, whether you feel the former is "fluff" or not. The sentence should be deleted, but if it remains expect me to significantly tweak it and/or the references at some point. If you instead take the matter to a subtopic article, you should include coverage of the views of the industry, "neoliberal rags", and think tanks you mentioned, even though you personally disagree with them. We aren't limited to "peer reviewed academic sources", especially on subjective political issues where the sources in question are overtly championing one side. VictorD7 (talk) 21:17, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not backpedaling away from anything. The original sentence was something I quickly came up with in order to restore materials you arbitrarily deleted; I merely improved upon it and now it better reflects the sources cited. I have demonstrated time and again that there is a growing chorus against prison privatization in the United States - in both national and international media on a significant scale. This is what makes it relevant in a section on incarceration, especially considering it's just one small sentence. That a fringe minority views private prisons in a positive light is irrelevant. I don't know what binary world you live in, but there aren't always two "sides" to every issue. For example, should we now include views on holocaust denial on the Holocaust wiki article for the sake of representing all "sides"? Of course not. And don't preach to me about neutrality on wikipedia and rant about so-called ideologues as though you aren't one. Just based on what you've posted in this section it is quite obvious.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 14:27, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
- No, the sentence I deleted (for good reasons given) called private prisons "a subject of contentious public debate", which is even more explicit than just labeling it a "controversy". You're backpedaling from that claim now. And no, society's status quo position can hardly be dismissed as a "fringe minority view". Such rhetoric is ludicrous. The truth is that a few fringe activists have started complaining about it (with think tanks and other sources disagreeing with them, as you've already conceded), but it's not (yet at least) a matter of contentious debate nor much of a "growing controversy", at least not one meriting coverage in this article. Even if it was a national controversy it wouldn't necessarily be appropriate material for this encyclopedia article. There are many far more significant controversies given little or no coverage here. We all have our political views. The difference between you and me is that I'm not trying to hijack Wikipedia articles for one sided soapbox crusading. We can have our views and still edit for neutrality. If your monochrome worldview won't allow you to do that then maybe this isn't the best site for your energies. VictorD7 (talk) 23:18, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not backpedaling away from anything. The original sentence was something I quickly came up with in order to restore materials you arbitrarily deleted; I merely improved upon it and now it better reflects the sources cited. I have demonstrated time and again that there is a growing chorus against prison privatization in the United States - in both national and international media on a significant scale. This is what makes it relevant in a section on incarceration, especially considering it's just one small sentence. That a fringe minority views private prisons in a positive light is irrelevant. I don't know what binary world you live in, but there aren't always two "sides" to every issue. For example, should we now include views on holocaust denial on the Holocaust wiki article for the sake of representing all "sides"? Of course not. And don't preach to me about neutrality on wikipedia and rant about so-called ideologues as though you aren't one. Just based on what you've posted in this section it is quite obvious.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 14:27, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
- Now you're backpedaling away from it even being a "controversy" (your original word). It's more like niche criticism from some like minded ideologues that doesn't rise to the level of meriting coverage in this brief summary article. Niche criticism in the US exists on countless topics we don't mention on this page. Many are covered in subtopic articles, which is where (neutral) discussion of private prisons belongs. For the record, acknowledging that prison privatization isn't a national election issue is hardly the "opposite" of acknowledging that it's not a national political issue, whether you feel the former is "fluff" or not. The sentence should be deleted, but if it remains expect me to significantly tweak it and/or the references at some point. If you instead take the matter to a subtopic article, you should include coverage of the views of the industry, "neoliberal rags", and think tanks you mentioned, even though you personally disagree with them. We aren't limited to "peer reviewed academic sources", especially on subjective political issues where the sources in question are overtly championing one side. VictorD7 (talk) 21:17, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
- I have conceded no such thing; quite the opposite based on my statement about political campaigns being more fluff than substance. I can find dozens more articles on the subject reported in national and international media (i.e., The Guardian) in the last several years, indicating just how widespread the discussion of the issue has become. I'm working on a rewrite of the passage to have "controversy" removed completely given this is one of the big sticking points and replacing it with "The privatization of prisons, which began in the 1980s, has been the subject of mounting criticism in recent years," which is actually more accurate. Outside of industry funded studies and a few "reports" published in neoliberal rags and by corporate-funded think tanks, there aren't too many articles praising the for-profit prison industry; certainly nothing in peer-reviewed academic sources that I've seen.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 23:01, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
- Countless "phenomena" have been mentioned in a few articles, but at least you concede it's not a national level political issue. This is a very broad national summary article and not the place for covering any random niche issue that fits your whimsy. In addition to placement (and yes, implied conspiracy theory), the "side" is taken in what you're calling a "controversy" by all your sources being anti-private prison. If it's truly a "controversy", much less one that rises to the level of meriting coverage here, then there is by definition more than one side. You dodged my question; did you even try to find a single source from the other side? VictorD7 (talk) 21:46, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
- Oh please. The phenomenon of prison privatization has been reported in The New York Times, Al Jazeera America, Politico, Bloomberg, The Wall Street Journal, NPR, the Associated Press, et cetera. Just because it wasn't an issue in a national election (are you kidding me with this? National campaigns rarely focus on anything of substance by my estimation) doesn't mean it's not noteworthy. Not only that, but the sources I cited speak for themselves, unless you believe peer-reviewed academics and The New Yorker are peddling conspiracy theories. Your only role in this discussion appears to be setting up straw-men and attempting to knock them down. There is no basis for synth accusations as what I restored does not link incarceration rates to prison privatization, regardless of placement. As it stands now no "side" is given. That being said, while you would no doubt dismiss the following as "conspiracy theories," prison companies and ALEC have played their part in pushing for draconian laws to keep prisons filled and pressuring states to sign contracts guaranteeing 90% occupancy or higher. I did not add this content to this particular article as that would be giving undue weight to the issue. --C.J. Griffin (talk) 04:42, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
- Your Google search mostly shows leftist blogs. My comments were informed and never claimed there can't be more than one conspiracy theorist. Do your sources prove that support for tough sentencing isn't due to its popularity among voters? How? Psychic powers? Or are they just giving their own opinions? You ignored everything I said about a controversy involving disagreement. Controversy - "1. A dispute, especially a public one, between sides holding opposing views." Do you care at all about covering the other side? VictorD7 (talk) 22:16, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- All you have to do is a simple google news search and see for yourself that prison privatization is a contentious issue garnering ever more media attention. Your nasty and ill-informed rant about conspiracy theories aside, what I restored (I didn't add the content originally - must be another "conspiracy theorist"!!!) and modified is backed by reliable sources.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 22:05, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- "the current segment could be interpreted by readers who don't know any better as meaning the US is simply rounding people up and incarcerating them at a shocking racial disparity solely because of their skin color." so, it would be interpreted correctly? --Golbez (talk) 00:41, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- This segment is too controversial for an article about the entire nation. Any mention on crime and race should be in a dedicated sub-article. This statement is too POV for such a broad article in Wikipedia. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 01:43, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- Agree with PointsofNoReturn just to much detail for an overview article. To generalize... this topic is not even covered by most FA like articles Australia, Canada and Japan. All that is needed is a section called "Law" that mentions the structure of thing. There is no need foe detailed stats of executions, imprisonment rates or murders by state. Just over kill that can be covered in the main article. I also agree with User:Golbez POV on how it looks. -- Moxy (talk) 02:42, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- Agreed, this article needs to stop being a WP:SOAPBOX. There is a place on Wikipedia for this, definitely in some sub-article somewhere. But not here.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 20:12, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- Are you proposing we purge the entire crime section? I really don't see that happening considering it's a long-standing section and is backed by reliable sources. I sure would not support that. If anything, some of it needs updated.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 20:37, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- We wouldn't need to purge the entire section necessarily. It would just be necessary to leave out any racial components from the section and simply leave them the the dedicated sub-articles on crime in America. I do not have too much of a problem with the section otherwise. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 20:43, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- It appears that it's just one sentence and it is backed by a reliable source. If it was an entire paragraph I would see your point. I don't see any issues of undue weight given the nation's long history of racial problems. It would be like purging the China article of any mention of repression of Falun gong members and harvesting their organs (among other things). Is that too much detail for an overview of China?--C.J. Griffin (talk) 21:07, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- But it's not going to remain one sentence, because it's currently misleading and in violation of NPOV. If it remains then racial breakdowns of at least some of the major crime rates must be added, and it sounds like you may be interested in further expansions, which will in turn invite even more expansions to maintain some semblance of neutrality (including at some point commentary on modern American black culture by people whose politics is different from yours and all sorts of tangents), bloating that part of the section into an overweight mess. VictorD7 (talk) 21:54, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- It appears that it's just one sentence and it is backed by a reliable source. If it was an entire paragraph I would see your point. I don't see any issues of undue weight given the nation's long history of racial problems. It would be like purging the China article of any mention of repression of Falun gong members and harvesting their organs (among other things). Is that too much detail for an overview of China?--C.J. Griffin (talk) 21:07, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- We wouldn't need to purge the entire section necessarily. It would just be necessary to leave out any racial components from the section and simply leave them the the dedicated sub-articles on crime in America. I do not have too much of a problem with the section otherwise. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 20:43, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- Agree with PointsofNoReturn just to much detail for an overview article. To generalize... this topic is not even covered by most FA like articles Australia, Canada and Japan. All that is needed is a section called "Law" that mentions the structure of thing. There is no need foe detailed stats of executions, imprisonment rates or murders by state. Just over kill that can be covered in the main article. I also agree with User:Golbez POV on how it looks. -- Moxy (talk) 02:42, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- Golbez, because I'm a nice guy I'll charitably allow for the possibility that you misread the op and give you a chance to clarify. Do you really believe that the racial incarceration rate is solely due to discrimination, and that blacks don't commit crime at a rate any higher than non-blacks? As for the discrimination angle, we've been through that with a long debate that ended when I quoted how your own posted meta-study refuted your position. That said, regardless of what you personally feel is "correct", this isn't the place for soapboxing. The section currently tramples NPOV. VictorD7 (talk) 21:42, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- protip: i agree with you on omitting the sentence, just not on your reasoning. "this isn't the place for soapboxing" so why did bring racial politics into it, when it would have been easier to just point out "this is a specific concern of a small aspect of the nation that doesn't belong in this summary article, and also has more to do with the state and local authorities than the national". easy peasy. so the question you must ask yourself is, do you really want to start an argument over this with someone who agrees with you? because we can burn the whole talk page to the ground til we get blocked, or we can clam up and keep this discussion to what is best for the article. --Golbez (talk) 23:36, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- Actually I've said both here (and I'm reacting to racial politics, not injecting it), but I'm glad to hear that you agree with removing the sentence. VictorD7 (talk) 00:14, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
- @Golbez: America has the largest proportion of people in jail, and the largest relative proportion of ethnic minorities in jail. Why are those facts "small aspects" of the US? EllenCT (talk) 00:49, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
- Most people in jail, relevant. "largest relative proportion of ethnic minorities" is... well, first of all, I'd ask for a source but I don't particularly care. And also, disproportionately jailing ethnic minorities is certainly nothing that the US has a monopoly on. That is a detail that's not necessary in this article. And really, you're going to have this fight with me? And yes, civil law enforcement practices pertaining to one aspect of sentencing are one specific concern of the small aspect of the nation that is law enforcement, which usually gets no more than a couple of paragraphs in an article; the inclusion of every sentence in a crowded article like this must be justified, and this one hasn't been. --Golbez (talk) 03:38, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
- I don't want to fight, I just want to understand your reasoning. If, after understanding it, I think there is sufficient room for improvement, then I'm willing to try to communicate the rationale for those improvements. I don't see that as fighting. EllenCT (talk) 01:27, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
- but that's just it, all people ever do on this page is fight. they're in love with the sound of their own voice. I'm tired of it. While you and Victor do, occasionally, from time to time, work towards a valid edit, 99% of the time it's just argument for the sake of argument that leads literally nowhere. Though that's still better than the 100% we have for the territories argument. Sorry, I'm just really, really burnt out on this talk page's bullshit right now. I could leave. I probably should. But I'd rather sit here and snark. --Golbez (talk) 02:38, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
- Why do you think we're not sincerely trying to improve the encyclopedia? I know I am, and I think Victor thinks he is too. I just feel like he's been lied to by those who wish to profit from mass disinformation, and I'm pretty sure he would probably say the same about me. Therefore I think it's very important to hash out the facts, even if it takes a long time. What makes it seem like we aren't trying to improve the encyclopedia instead of reflecting the trend towards wider and harsher disagreement in American society? EllenCT (talk) 14:46, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
- Oh, you and Victor certainly are sincerely trying to improve the encyclopedia. You two are just bad at it. You both bring up arguments here that have been argued forever on other parts of the internet, expecting a different or lasting result to come of them here. --Golbez (talk) 06:06, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
- I disagree of course, and that's especially rich coming from you, Golbez. About all I see you do here is derail threads (look at your initial response to this op, which apparently didn't represent your pertinent article position which you didn't bother stating until later), behave like a hot head, and personally attack people. Your newest comment here is no exception. I criticize others sometimes but at least I also offer substance, and the tangential subject commentary I sometimes add is usually either just graciously answering someone's questions, correcting posted misinformation, or illustrating that there's serious disagreement on a topic that other editors may not know about. All of that can be useful to long term article improvement. VictorD7 (talk) 20:02, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
- Bad relative to whom? Even I would prefer Victor to someone who wants to add something about how a tributary of some river was or was not part of the Louisiana purchase, maybe even two or three hours out of the year. EllenCT (talk) 22:13, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
- Compare the volume of argument here over crime rates and the relative merits of the black race to how much change has actually come of it. The signal:noise ratio is astoundingly small. And neither of you care what the other has to say, or, I dare assume, even read each other's sources. It is literally a forum argument in wiki form. This whole thing could have been dealt with in a far more efficient manner if you two had decided to treat this as a collaboration instead of a battleground. And Victor - I decided to respond to your needless political remark (and it was indeed needless and political, as it was your own specific viewpoint on something you know people disagree with) because, well, I wanted to, and because we each got one. But then you kept on with it. But eh. I've decided to fully ignore everyone in the interminable territory debate, I can ignore everyone in the interminable right wing/left wing debate here, and just make my goddamn maps and lists. --Golbez (talk) 01:20, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
- Oh, you and Victor certainly are sincerely trying to improve the encyclopedia. You two are just bad at it. You both bring up arguments here that have been argued forever on other parts of the internet, expecting a different or lasting result to come of them here. --Golbez (talk) 06:06, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
- Why do you think we're not sincerely trying to improve the encyclopedia? I know I am, and I think Victor thinks he is too. I just feel like he's been lied to by those who wish to profit from mass disinformation, and I'm pretty sure he would probably say the same about me. Therefore I think it's very important to hash out the facts, even if it takes a long time. What makes it seem like we aren't trying to improve the encyclopedia instead of reflecting the trend towards wider and harsher disagreement in American society? EllenCT (talk) 14:46, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
- but that's just it, all people ever do on this page is fight. they're in love with the sound of their own voice. I'm tired of it. While you and Victor do, occasionally, from time to time, work towards a valid edit, 99% of the time it's just argument for the sake of argument that leads literally nowhere. Though that's still better than the 100% we have for the territories argument. Sorry, I'm just really, really burnt out on this talk page's bullshit right now. I could leave. I probably should. But I'd rather sit here and snark. --Golbez (talk) 02:38, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
- I don't want to fight, I just want to understand your reasoning. If, after understanding it, I think there is sufficient room for improvement, then I'm willing to try to communicate the rationale for those improvements. I don't see that as fighting. EllenCT (talk) 01:27, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
- Most people in jail, relevant. "largest relative proportion of ethnic minorities" is... well, first of all, I'd ask for a source but I don't particularly care. And also, disproportionately jailing ethnic minorities is certainly nothing that the US has a monopoly on. That is a detail that's not necessary in this article. And really, you're going to have this fight with me? And yes, civil law enforcement practices pertaining to one aspect of sentencing are one specific concern of the small aspect of the nation that is law enforcement, which usually gets no more than a couple of paragraphs in an article; the inclusion of every sentence in a crowded article like this must be justified, and this one hasn't been. --Golbez (talk) 03:38, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
- protip: i agree with you on omitting the sentence, just not on your reasoning. "this isn't the place for soapboxing" so why did bring racial politics into it, when it would have been easier to just point out "this is a specific concern of a small aspect of the nation that doesn't belong in this summary article, and also has more to do with the state and local authorities than the national". easy peasy. so the question you must ask yourself is, do you really want to start an argument over this with someone who agrees with you? because we can burn the whole talk page to the ground til we get blocked, or we can clam up and keep this discussion to what is best for the article. --Golbez (talk) 23:36, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- This segment is too controversial for an article about the entire nation. Any mention on crime and race should be in a dedicated sub-article. This statement is too POV for such a broad article in Wikipedia. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 01:43, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
- The argument above outlines why this controversial and misleading section should be removed. Great example of how people will see the info in a different light.-- Moxy (talk) 04:59, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
- It is highly unlikely that the entire section will be removed. You seem to be the only editor pushing this. Much of the content, from gun violence to executions to the fact that the US has the largest prison population on earth, is significant and relevant as the US is clearly an outlier among developed nations in the area of crime and punishment, and warrants mention in the article. After all, the China article discusses "controversial" issues such as executions and persecution of religious minorities. If such content is relevant to an overview of China, how could the aforementioned content not be relevant to an overview of the US?--C.J. Griffin (talk) 13:17, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
- Not remove the entire section, remove the POV SOAPBOXING being advocated, especially as it is presently one sided in the article, and to create a BALANCED presentation of the issue would give the issue far too much WEIGHT in a summary article. As I said here before, this content has a place on Wikipedia, just not on this particular article.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 18:29, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
- I see none of the soapboxing that you are referring to, just facts that could make some people of certain political persuasions very uncomfortable. That being said, I'm willing to compromise and let the sentence pertaining to the racial breakdown of imprisonment rates go if the rest remains intact.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 23:01, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
- As to avoid an edit war, please see WP:RELTIME regarding the above editors most recent edit to the section being discussed.
- Also, "I'm willing to"? Please see WP:OWN. I wasn't aware that C.J. Griffin had to sign off on all edits of this article.
- There are editors here of differences of opinion as to what should and should not be included, and how much weight certain controversial items should be given in this article. What we can do, and what I am suggesting, is attempt to collaborate here on the talk page, and reach consensus to create a balanced section. One way to achieve balance is to not include either side at all, and link, in a see also hat note of the section to those articles whose scope is specific to those controversial subjects. This leaves whatever back and forth debate/argument on those related articles, and keeps them off here.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 23:48, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
- I altered my most recent edits.
- Oh come on. you know perfectly well that I was merely informing others in the discussion that I would not challenge any removal of the sentence in question so long as there are no other attempts at removing long-standing materials in this section. This seems to be the main sticking point. But like I suspected I have a feeling that more than a few here would like the entire paragraph on incarceration deleted for political reasons. Now that I will go to the mat over.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 00:12, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
- I just don't want the racial sentence in the article. I am fine with the rest of the section. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 01:32, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
- No one wants to delete the entire paragraph, though many of us believe the section is currently extremely skewed (with opinions, not just facts) for political reasons. And I'm all for adding facts, which is why in the op I proposed going that route as a potential alternative to deleting the racial breakdown, but some of those facts made some people very uncomfortable, which is why deletion of the most egregious sentence is likely at this point. Maybe at a future date we can address the gun control soapboxing by adding facts on guns' role in thwarting crimes, the relationship between concealed gun laws and falling crime rates, the fact that other developed nations already had lower violent crime rates than the US long before they passed gun control laws, murder rates in the US cities with the strictest gun control, and the relationship between "gun free zones" and mass killings, or we can trim more, but that's a discussion for another time. VictorD7 (talk) 21:17, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
- I see none of the soapboxing that you are referring to, just facts that could make some people of certain political persuasions very uncomfortable. That being said, I'm willing to compromise and let the sentence pertaining to the racial breakdown of imprisonment rates go if the rest remains intact.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 23:01, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
- Not remove the entire section, remove the POV SOAPBOXING being advocated, especially as it is presently one sided in the article, and to create a BALANCED presentation of the issue would give the issue far too much WEIGHT in a summary article. As I said here before, this content has a place on Wikipedia, just not on this particular article.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 18:29, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
- It is highly unlikely that the entire section will be removed. You seem to be the only editor pushing this. Much of the content, from gun violence to executions to the fact that the US has the largest prison population on earth, is significant and relevant as the US is clearly an outlier among developed nations in the area of crime and punishment, and warrants mention in the article. After all, the China article discusses "controversial" issues such as executions and persecution of religious minorities. If such content is relevant to an overview of China, how could the aforementioned content not be relevant to an overview of the US?--C.J. Griffin (talk) 13:17, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
- Obviously something must be mentioned aboiut criminal justice in the U.S. The fact that it holds a quarter of the world's prisoners, that it is one of the only developed countries that executes people and that minorities are overrepresented in its prisons are all significant. Certainly they are also overrepresented in other countries, but it is particularly noticeable in the U.S. due to the larger minority populations. Saying the reason is that minorities commit more crimes is just one spin on the issue - minorities are more likely to be prosecuted and attract longer sentences. And the reason they commit more crimes is that they are more likely to be economically disadvantaged. But detailed analysis is beyond the scope of this article. If we were to treat every significant aspect of the U.S. in this detail, the article would run into dozens of pages. Readers who have a particular interest in this topic may go to the sub-articles that explain it in detail. TFD (talk) 05:02, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
- Actually I'd argue that racial disparity in crime rate is more fundamental and significant than the racial incarceration breakdown (hardly "spin"; if anything it's easier to accuse the latter talking point of deflection), but I don't think either needs to be discussed in this brief summary article. For the record the sentencing claim is disputed and economic status doesn't explain the racial crime rate disparity. VictorD7 (talk) 21:17, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
- Oh, if it's not that African Americans have been a marginalized and economically disadvantaged segment of the population since even before the nation's founding, then pray tell what is the "real" (i.e., right-wing) reason (propaganda) for the racial crime rate disparity? This in and of itself is a red herring. In fact, studies have shown that black male youth are much more likely to be incarcerated at higher rate than their white and hispanic counterparts even though they don't commit crimes at a higher rate.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 14:27, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
- Please. A garbage self reporting study on kids (that measured frequency rather than severity anyway?) doesn't change the fact that blacks commit crime at much higher rates than non-blacks (shown by concrete data), and that this can't be accounted for by controlling for economic status. You seem to just be rehashing the discussion with Ellen near the top of this section. Refer to my posts there for sourced refutation. As for why, we could discuss things from the legacy of slavery to the destructive impact of the welfare state and growing racial grievance movement in eroding personal responsibility, or maybe the unchecked and self crippling simmering bigotry within black communities, but all that is beside the point. The facts are the facts. We don't have to answer why. We certainly shouldn't be implying a specific, misleading "why" (like institutional racial discrimination accounts for most or all of the incarceration disparity; easily debunked) with cherry-picked facts as part of a soapbox crusade. Better to not get into this niche racial issue at all in this brief summary section. VictorD7 (talk) 23:18, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
- Oh, if it's not that African Americans have been a marginalized and economically disadvantaged segment of the population since even before the nation's founding, then pray tell what is the "real" (i.e., right-wing) reason (propaganda) for the racial crime rate disparity? This in and of itself is a red herring. In fact, studies have shown that black male youth are much more likely to be incarcerated at higher rate than their white and hispanic counterparts even though they don't commit crimes at a higher rate.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 14:27, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
- Actually I'd argue that racial disparity in crime rate is more fundamental and significant than the racial incarceration breakdown (hardly "spin"; if anything it's easier to accuse the latter talking point of deflection), but I don't think either needs to be discussed in this brief summary article. For the record the sentencing claim is disputed and economic status doesn't explain the racial crime rate disparity. VictorD7 (talk) 21:17, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
I just noticed we don't have anything about the falling violent crime rate which is prettly clearly a more profound and substantial change than many of the other statistics in the Law enforcement and crime section. Any objections to inclusion? EllenCT (talk) 17:00, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
- Um, the section's second paragraph has long led off with a segment (I added, thank you very much) about the murder rate falling 54% from its modern peak in 1980 to 2012, mostly sourced to the FBI. If you want to expand that to broader categories of crime, we should tuck that in after that sentence. We should probably use more recent data than 2009 if we're posting specifics though. It would also be wise to post sources and specifics here before adding them to the article (I'm assuming you aren't proposing adding that image). VictorD7 (talk) 20:07, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
- Great! Thank you. How do you feel about law enforcement, corrections, and indigent defense spending? Anyone else object? EllenCT (talk) 00:58, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
- No, I don't think apples and oranges comparisons from totally unrelated categories forced together on a graph for emotive impact on a far left blog would be moving the section in the right direction. I suppose the most charitable thing one can say is that it's overly detailed for this article. VictorD7 (talk) 04:01, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
- When did Mother Jones become a reliable source? Again, NOTSOAPBOX.
- Saying how much is spent on law enforcement is one thing, saying how many people are incarcerated is one thing, but no need to push a POV.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 05:11, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
- They won a Pulitzer, didn't they? And they have a bunch of fact-checkers on staff. How are the Murdoch outlets doing in the fact-checker sweepstakes? Has FNC caught up to the WSJ yet? I keep forgetting the relative scores of Mother Jones and Democracy Now, which is another left wing source with far better fact checking than Fox News but they like dissidents. Should we have a section on American dissidents? Like, how many are there? I couldn't tell you, and I read lots of pro-dissident outlets. EllenCT (talk) 07:26, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
- A single ideologically driven Pulitzer doesn't change the fact that it's a half assed, far left opinion blog, most recently making a splash for getting caught red handed lying in an attempt to smear Bill O'Reilly (even left leaning Mediate took the blog to task on it). But that's not the most important factor here. Even low quality partisan blogs are "reliable" for their own views, but this isn't the section for POV soapboxing, no matter how "reliable" a source is. RightCowLeftCoast is right. That said, if we were to inject random liberal opinions on new topics, we could probably find better sources to represent those views.
- They won a Pulitzer, didn't they? And they have a bunch of fact-checkers on staff. How are the Murdoch outlets doing in the fact-checker sweepstakes? Has FNC caught up to the WSJ yet? I keep forgetting the relative scores of Mother Jones and Democracy Now, which is another left wing source with far better fact checking than Fox News but they like dissidents. Should we have a section on American dissidents? Like, how many are there? I couldn't tell you, and I read lots of pro-dissident outlets. EllenCT (talk) 07:26, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
- No, I don't think apples and oranges comparisons from totally unrelated categories forced together on a graph for emotive impact on a far left blog would be moving the section in the right direction. I suppose the most charitable thing one can say is that it's overly detailed for this article. VictorD7 (talk) 04:01, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
- BTW, what "fact checking sweepstakes", lol? There are dozens of blogs calling themselves "fact checkers". If you're referring to Politifact, I've quoted for you before where they admit their scores aren't comparable to each other, because they only cherry-pick a few claims from each outfit in a totally ad hoc, unscientific manner. Politifact has also credibly been accused of partisan bias and inaccuracies anyway. But that's yet another tangent unrelated to article improvement. VictorD7 (talk) 20:02, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
- You pick. Name any fact checking series which has Fox News Channel in the top half. EllenCT (talk) 22:13, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
- Just cause they call themselves fact checkers don't make them so. As VictorD7 has pointed out on this talk page. This is not a page which to attack Fox News, there is enough of that here on Wikipedia and eslewhere. It is the favorite pass time of those who oppose what it calls "fair and balanced". It just happens not to be as Left as the rest of American News Media (Gallup, UCLA, U.S. News & World Report, Rasmussen, Business Insider, Goldberg (2001), Groseclose (2011)).
- You pick. Name any fact checking series which has Fox News Channel in the top half. EllenCT (talk) 22:13, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
- BTW, what "fact checking sweepstakes", lol? There are dozens of blogs calling themselves "fact checkers". If you're referring to Politifact, I've quoted for you before where they admit their scores aren't comparable to each other, because they only cherry-pick a few claims from each outfit in a totally ad hoc, unscientific manner. Politifact has also credibly been accused of partisan bias and inaccuracies anyway. But that's yet another tangent unrelated to article improvement. VictorD7 (talk) 20:02, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
Back to the question at hand, do the crimes committed by race, judicial prosecution by race, and incarceration population by race belong in this article? No. Take it elsewhere, please. Create its own article, and link it here. Expand on it in relevant articles where that is that articles primary scope, and link it here. But this is not the place for detailed examination of this, or even significant mention. There is an attempt by certain segments of the population to claim prosecution base on race, of systemic racism. Stop. See WP:RECENTISM. See again NOTSOAPBOX. But please, see BALANCE.
The best way to achieve balance here is not to mention it, and to link it in the see also section of Law enforcement in the United States (or create a section in that article). No need for that controversial subject here.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 02:44, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
- VictorD7, we have all heard the echo chamber talking points. The fact is that none of it is supported by reliable sources. The main driving factors of criminal activity are gender, age and economic status, and minorities, including women incidentally, not only in the U.S., tend to receive higher sentences for the same offenses. Once those three factors are accounted for, race has nothing to do with criminality. And yes Mother Jones is a reliable source and so is Fox News, although the commentators and their guests are not. TFD (talk) 04:40, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
- Reliable for what? You're the one posting pale echoes, TFD. Unlike you, I posted studies proving my point. To avoid repetition or finding additional, redundant ones I again ask you to visit the high part of this thread and read them. The racial crime rate disparity doesn't vanish when economic status is controlled for. Again, blacks have about twice the poverty rate as whites but commit murder at around seven times the rate of whites. Obviously there is a gender gap in violence but that has nothing to do with this racial discussion. I'm not sure why you even mentioned it. Age? What's the average age difference between blacks and whites? You're grasping at straws. The sentencing disparity is hotly debated and remains unproved (Ellen's own study said 80% of it vanished when severity of offense and criminal past are accounted for; I've seen studies that reduce it further by controlling for more variables), and sentencing doesn't come until after the crimes are committed and there's been a conviction anyway, so it doesn't explain the crime skew based on witness reports. Yet of all these, it's the only one focused on by the article, at least through implication (an interpretation reinforced by poster argument in favor of the segment here). By contrast the racial crime rate disparity is real and concrete, regardless of the underlying explanations.
- Rather than cherry-picking one dubious talking point for soapbox emphasis, wouldn't it be better to just delete the racial breakdown entirely and deal with the matter on more narrowly focused, detail oriented subtopic articles instead, where the subject can be fully and neutrally covered? VictorD7 (talk) 20:52, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
So Removal?
Is there a consensus for removing the racial incarceration sentence then, or should it remain with me adding racial crime rate breakdowns for neutrality and full coverage of the issue? Several posters strongly supported removal but with some of the potential objectors it wasn't clear how strongly or if they necessarily opposed removal. VictorD7 (talk) 19:16, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
- I think it would be best to remove genetic comparisons to crime, and replace it with the top policy proposals to maximize median years of productive life per capita, per WP:WEIGHT. But, failing that, I also think it should be replaced with a discussion of why emotional intelligence is more predictive than Stanford-Binet IQ measures of mathematical, linguistic, and spatial ability in terms of general success including involvement with crime. EllenCT (talk) 01:27, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with removal. The sentence, as evidenced by the extensive dialogue above, is far too controversial to be maintained as a statement of fact in the general overview article of the United States. Regardless of one's opinion on whether the racial incarceration rate is fundamental enough to warrant inclusion with other material like previous wars or major waterways, it unequivocally fails Wikipedia's WP:SOAPBOX criteria. It ought not be included in the this article. Perhaps it would be best moved to a separate article on the matter itself.LT391 (talk) 18:28, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
Changes in relationship between education and income
Since there are several WP:SUMMARY sub-articles dealing with income, education, government spending, taxation, and fiscal policy, most of which discuss their inter-relationships, I propose including "Why American Workers Without Much Education Are Being Hammered". The Upshot. New York Times. April 21, 2015. Retrieved 25 April 2015., here with the summary, "From 1990 to 2013, workers with high school education or less have lost more wages than those with college degrees have gained." I further propose that we include a discussion of the return on education investment and the impact of declining middle class wages on the affordability of higher education, and the resulting fiscal impact on tax revenue. EllenCT (talk) 15:37, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
- Nay. WP:UNDUE. Please do not split the topic of discussion. This "pressing issue", is already in discussion above, just in another form down here. Please, this isn't see how many balls we can kick towards the goal, and see how many get in.
- I have suggested a compromise of using See also hat notes in the appropriate section. But even there I am cautious. Let us not overlink, and let us not create paragraph length hatnotes to highlight certain subjects. Perhaps this is better integrated into sub-articles such as Economy of the United States rather than this high level article.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 16:43, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
- It is a related issue, but only partially overlapping with income inequality. If the issue fit in just one or more sub-articles, I would not be proposing it here. EllenCT (talk) 17:52, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
- I think your recent inclusion of immigration impact on income inequality was excellent, and I hope you will please reconsider your stance on including the causal links both to and from exemplary education policies, such as Oregon within and Germany and the industrialized nordic internationally. EllenCT (talk) 20:45, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
- When did I say my inclusion of immigration impact was excellent?
- IMHO the above suggestion by EllenCT is best left in sub-articles specific to sub-articles whose primary subject is specific to those areas, and not this article. Including my own edit. But since EllenCT has continued to add content here, I might as well do so as well (my one sentence compared to the multitude of sentences added by EllenCT).--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 18:08, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
- Do you think this article should give equal weight to those who believe income inequality causes growth and those who know it inhibits it? If this article were governed according to WP:UNDUE, right-wing views would properly be sidelined and marginalized because the demographic center of Americans' political preferences is to the left of the Democrats. That is not an opinion, it is a fact about the opinions of Americans on a per-capita instead of a per-dollar basis. Of all the factors influencing and influenced by the economic trends of recent decades, immigration is small potatoes compared to education. If your idea of an excellent encyclopedia article emphasizes topics according to your discredited political preferences, then perhaps your skills would better serve your fellow citizens by editing Conservapedia. EllenCT (talk) 23:18, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
- @RightCowLeftCoast: is there any evidence opposed, in support of your position? EllenCT (talk) 00:18, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
- I cannot believe what is being stated here by EllenCT, that neutral is predominantly left-wing views, and that Wikipedia should advance that POV. My political views also have zero relevance to this discussion. So leave those out of it.
- Again, As I stated, my addition as well as the additions of EllenCT should be left in appropriate subarticles, with at best, see also links to the articles which have these subjects as primary subjects of those articles. This section is about the Economy of the United States. Unless that article is massively imbalanced as well, this section should not be imbalanced.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 02:28, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
- You are the one who cited UNDUE, and you claim that your politics entitle you to balance statements with which you disagree, apparently even when those opinions are contrary to facts. Do you believe that the mainstream flows between the corporate parties or between the parties and the people? We have discussed Americans' political preferences in detail. If you can not see how the mistake attributing income inequality to the promotion of economic growth caused the current state of affairs, I will be happy to walk you through it step-by-step as many times as is necessary. But for now, please answer the question: Is there any evidence in support of your assertion that immigration has had a greater impact on income inequality than education in the united states? (A different sub-article which doesn't overlap with the economics article.) EllenCT (talk) 02:39, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict)@EllenCT: I will no longer enter into discussions with EllenCT seeing as EllenCT showed bad faith with this post. I understand that EllenCT believes that the way they are editing is best for Wikipedia, even if I do not share that view. Without a civil editing environment continuing this discussion only leads to conditions that fly in the face of policy. G'day.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 02:48, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
- So instead of answering the question, you make accusations of incivility? On what grounds? If you go around saying 1+1=0 then don't say that people correcting you are unfriendly. You have had ample opportunity to present any evidence that supports your opinions. EllenCT (talk) 03:23, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
- @EllenCT: Comment on the edits and not on the editor. Otherwise, editing becomes impossible and WP:BATTLEGROUND ensues. Not the best way to go about it in my experience. - Cwobeel (talk) 03:27, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
- Perhaps your comment should be directed at the party making unfounded accusations of incivility instead of addressing the question of whether their opinions are unsupported by facts. Please see Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement. EllenCT (talk) 03:38, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
- @EllenCT: Comment on the edits and not on the editor. Otherwise, editing becomes impossible and WP:BATTLEGROUND ensues. Not the best way to go about it in my experience. - Cwobeel (talk) 03:27, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
- EllenCT, politically speaking, I am on your side of the aisle. But your approach here is really disturbing when you are not capable to realize that comments from you such as
If your idea of an excellent encyclopedia article emphasizes only the topics according to your discredited political preferences, then perhaps your skills would better serve your fellow citizens by editing Conservapedia
, are utterly useless in a discussion about how to improve an article. - Cwobeel (talk) 13:48, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
- EllenCT, politically speaking, I am on your side of the aisle. But your approach here is really disturbing when you are not capable to realize that comments from you such as
- Of course such niche, opinionated soapboxing isn't appropriate in this article, and this latest of many pushes flooding this page is just part of a larger crusade to, as another poster aptly put it, kick as many balls as possible toward the goal to see how many she can get in. Ellen's claim that, "...right-wing views would properly be sidelined and marginalized because the demographic center of Americans' political preferences is to the left of the Democrats. That is not an opinion, it is a fact" while suggesting another poster who's concerned about neutrality should be editing "Conservapedia" instead is not only ludicrous and demonstrably false but says more about her editing here than anyone else could. VictorD7 (talk) 19:51, 29 April 2015 (UTC)
- Do you have any evidence that the influence of immigration or any other factor on income inequality has been greater, or will be greater, than that described in [2]? EllenCT (talk) 04:57, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
- What, globalization and technology? Arguably immigration is another aspect of globalization, and it certainly at least exacerbates the plight of American workers. Unionization and to a lesser extent the minimum wage also contributed to American workers becoming expensive enough that much of the manufacturing sector transferred overseas. But none of that has anything to do with my point that this debatable stuff is a niche topic, and soapboxing doesn't belong in the article anyway. For perspective, Americans still have one of the highest median incomes in the world (by far the highest of any large nation), even one of the largest manufacturing sectors in the world, and both globalization and the rise of high end technology has enormously benefited people in other ways, especially as consumers. These are very complex issues that don't lend themselves well to brief treatments in a broad summary article like this. VictorD7 (talk) 18:44, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
- Do you have any evidence that the influence of immigration or any other factor on income inequality has been greater, or will be greater, than that described in [2]? EllenCT (talk) 04:57, 30 April 2015 (UTC)
I added the proposed sentence, and I would like to learn what others think of including a discussion of the return on education investment and the impact of declining middle class wages on the affordability of higher education, and the resulting fiscal impact on tax revenue. EllenCT (talk) 03:45, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
- Your recent massive alteration, which was to multiple sections and not just the brief addition mentioned here, was mostly opposed on this page and was reverted in the article by another editor. Please stop using Wikipedia for soapboxing. VictorD7 (talk) 19:00, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- None of the changes were discussed for less than a week, and the one pertaining to this question has been discussed for more than half a month without any substantive objection. If you object to it, or any of the others, then please state why. And again, do you claim that any other factor has had a larger impact on income inequality than education investment? Do you claim that any other factor has affected tax revenue more? Do you claim that any other factor has affected median wages more? EllenCT (talk) 23:52, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- Every editor who responded has opposed your proposal here, with solid, legitimate reasons. I haven't seen some of your edits, like changing Republicans from "center-right" to "right wing" discussed at all, though it had already been reverted by multiple editors after another editor had unilaterally tried to make it. If you can't grasp that you personally feeling like an issue is important to crusade on doesn't make it legitimate for Wikipedia inclusion, particularly in any article you happen to be in at the time, then I'm not sure how to reason with you. VictorD7 (talk) 19:34, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- None of the changes were discussed for less than a week, and the one pertaining to this question has been discussed for more than half a month without any substantive objection. If you object to it, or any of the others, then please state why. And again, do you claim that any other factor has had a larger impact on income inequality than education investment? Do you claim that any other factor has affected tax revenue more? Do you claim that any other factor has affected median wages more? EllenCT (talk) 23:52, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
False characterization of tax progressiveness and weasel words
I object to [3] and [4] because they are a false characterization of tax progressiveness, among other things and including WP:WEASEL words. EllenCT (talk) 13:19, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
- Your second link has nothing to do with tax progressivity and was simply me revising your recent income inequality addition for neutrality and appropriately broad detail level at this summary article level. We can objectively and neutrally mention that this is a subject of debate, including sources from both sides to support the point, but we shouldn't cherry-pick a hotly disputed partisan talking point and present the opinion unchallenged in Wikipedia's voice. WP:NPOV is policy, not a suggestion. It's also probably not the place to break down every aspect of both sides' arguments in detail. That's better suited for other, more topically specific articles.
- Your first link is a botched conflation of several different edits. If you meant to refer to my reversion of your recent Government finance alteration, do you really want to start down this road again after everything that's happened over the past couple of years? Unlike your inequality claims, the progressive nature of US taxation by international standards is not in serious dispute, and indeed the segment is sourced by references from across the ideological spectrum. There is nothing "false" nor weaselly about it. VictorD7 (talk) 19:55, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
- I am in agreement with Ellen here. The statements and wording are natural and reflect the sourcing.Casprings (talk) 03:12, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
- This is an old debate that has been rehashed over and over again. The Federal Income Tax code is progressive. It may not be progressive enough from some quarters, but that's a policy discussion and not a matter of definition. There's some selective obfuscation that happens when medicare and social security are considered. Even though these are also progressive programs (those who pay less get much more per dollar in benefits, per the CBO) they are lumped into the income tax discussion. That's fine for politics, but not really encyclopedic.Mattnad (talk) 12:03, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
- And overall taxation is progressive even when all taxes at all levels are considered, as even the left wing lobbyist outfit Ellen championed for years concedes. As you say, whether it should be even more progressive or not is a subjective debate that doesn't affect the facts given. VictorD7 (talk) 19:46, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
- After transfer payments, the U.S. is one of the least progressive of any of the developed democracies, or the socialist, welfare, or even the totalitarian states in the developed world. If you want to improve the accuracy with which you characterize the level of Americans' economic development, why not start with reporting the proportion of poor with access to their own transportation and laundry facilities and describe the concordant demands on time and effort, instead of harping on how fridges, microwaves, and video games have become so ubiquitous? EllenCT (talk) 23:20, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
- Sidestepping your uninformed tangent on poverty, welfare payments are spending, which is covered throughout the article in a number of ways, and America's income/wealth inequality is already given extensive coverage in the Income section (indeed it's been shoehorned in to the point where it's its overarching theme), including international comparisons. The Government finance segment in question by contrast is strictly about taxation, not the impact of fiscal policy on society. VictorD7 (talk) 00:56, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
- After transfer payments, the U.S. is one of the least progressive of any of the developed democracies, or the socialist, welfare, or even the totalitarian states in the developed world. If you want to improve the accuracy with which you characterize the level of Americans' economic development, why not start with reporting the proportion of poor with access to their own transportation and laundry facilities and describe the concordant demands on time and effort, instead of harping on how fridges, microwaves, and video games have become so ubiquitous? EllenCT (talk) 23:20, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
- And overall taxation is progressive even when all taxes at all levels are considered, as even the left wing lobbyist outfit Ellen championed for years concedes. As you say, whether it should be even more progressive or not is a subjective debate that doesn't affect the facts given. VictorD7 (talk) 19:46, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
- This is an old debate that has been rehashed over and over again. The Federal Income Tax code is progressive. It may not be progressive enough from some quarters, but that's a policy discussion and not a matter of definition. There's some selective obfuscation that happens when medicare and social security are considered. Even though these are also progressive programs (those who pay less get much more per dollar in benefits, per the CBO) they are lumped into the income tax discussion. That's fine for politics, but not really encyclopedic.Mattnad (talk) 12:03, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
- I am in agreement with Ellen here. The statements and wording are natural and reflect the sourcing.Casprings (talk) 03:12, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
- So you admit it. You are relying on an arbitrary section topic distinction to push the exact opposite of the truth in furtherance of your political biases. Could there be any stronger evidence that you are WP:NOTHERE to write an encyclopedia, but instead as a POV-pushing propagandist? And my point about transportation and laundry facility ownership stands as a clear improvement over your Heritage Foundation-sourced talking points on microwaves and videogames. EllenCT (talk) 02:09, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
- You are trying to insert that "U.S. taxation is generally progressive, especially the federal income taxes, and is among the most progressive in the developed world" and I am trying to claim "U.S. taxation is somewhat progressive, especially federal income taxes, but after transfer payments, US fiscal policy is among the least progressive in the developed world," citing Adler, Ben (April 15, 2010). "Why America's Tax Code Is the Least Progressive in the Industrialized World". Newsweek. because fiscal outlay policy is supposedly not related to government finance? You are trying to claim that "Government finance" is about taxation only, and not fiscal policy for spending on government programs, because you want the article to claim that U.S. fiscal policy is progressive. That is an obvious attempt at deliberate POV-pushing deception. Why would anyone have any reason to think that it isn't? Furthermore, the fact that we've long had "National debt" as a subsection clearly indicates that the "Government finance" section is about fiscal policy in general instead of just taxation. EllenCT (talk) 03:30, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- Obviously finance and spending are linked. But less progressive spending policy is not a simple function of tax policy. The US is very progressive in its taxation, but overall taxes its population less, particularly for middle and lower income households than other industrialized nations. In Quebec Canada, a household with $45K in income hits the 38% marginal income tax rate and there's a 16% VAT on most goods and services. The top marginal tax rate, starting at $138K, is around 50% which is close to some US federal, state, and local taxes combined (New York City for instance). Capital gains tax rates are also lower than what the U.S. has for high income households. Quebec is far less progressive in its taxes than the US, but it also has universal healthcare, highly subsidized day-care, and very inexpensive tuition for higher education.Mattnad (talk) 10:59, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- No, reread what I said. I spoke of that Government finance segment, which is solely about taxation. Indeed your own original preferred sentence didn't mention anything but taxation, and the national debt paragraphs are separated into a different subsection (which, btw, doesn't cover niche spending topics like military, healthcare, etc., all of which are covered elsewhere). Your latest version is even worse as it does mention "transfer payments" and passes a shaky but overly broad judgment on "fiscal policy", shoehorning in a cherry-picked conflation of two different topics to erase proper coverage of one. Your new opening assertion that US "taxation" is "somewhat progressive" is totally misleading since US taxation is extremely progressive by international standards, with consequences for topics like economic growth and revenue volatility that have nothing to do with income redistribution per se. That's why it's legitimate to separate tax progressivity into a distinct topic. And I'm not trying to insert anything. The segment you're trying to change has been very long standing, in place for years. You're engaging in POV pushing by watering down the verified truth with weasel words based on a cherry-picked apples and oranges juxtaposition the segment isn't about. If you wanted to include a segment about the US have a smaller welfare state than Europe, I might be persuaded to support that (depending on the text neutrality and source quality involved), but it would belong in the Income or Economy sections, which is where it was before it was deleted by someone (not me) during the big article shrinkage a couple of years ago. It doesn't belong in Government finance, which is just an overview of....government finance. VictorD7 (talk) 19:51, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- You are trying to insert that "U.S. taxation is generally progressive, especially the federal income taxes, and is among the most progressive in the developed world" and I am trying to claim "U.S. taxation is somewhat progressive, especially federal income taxes, but after transfer payments, US fiscal policy is among the least progressive in the developed world," citing Adler, Ben (April 15, 2010). "Why America's Tax Code Is the Least Progressive in the Industrialized World". Newsweek. because fiscal outlay policy is supposedly not related to government finance? You are trying to claim that "Government finance" is about taxation only, and not fiscal policy for spending on government programs, because you want the article to claim that U.S. fiscal policy is progressive. That is an obvious attempt at deliberate POV-pushing deception. Why would anyone have any reason to think that it isn't? Furthermore, the fact that we've long had "National debt" as a subsection clearly indicates that the "Government finance" section is about fiscal policy in general instead of just taxation. EllenCT (talk) 03:30, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
NPOV violation: Source removed under false pretenses.
The Income section sentence "The extent and relevance of income inequality is a matter of debate." is a neutrally worded summary segment followed by a note that supports the "debate" claim by including three sources representing the left wing "inequality is a terrible problem" side and three sources representing the more conservative "no it's not" view. That such a debate exists is not in dispute, and the sources illustrated it well. Except Ellen and Griffin just teamed up to delete one of the conservative sources, one extremely important for supporting the broad claim about the extent of inequality being a subject of debate, under the pretense that it's a "blog" and somehow not "RS" ([5] [6]).
Here's the source. Even if it was merely a blog it would still be RS for its own opinions, but the truth is it's an editor's news blog (which policy--WP:NEWSBLOG--allows even for supporting one sided factual claims, much less simply illustrating the existence of an opinionated disagreement) hosted by the Washington Free Beacon, an online news site that's broken numerous major national stories.
The Free Beacon piece covers, quotes from, and links to an article by Harvard economist Martin Feldstein in the The Wall Street Journal, an article in the Financial Times (part of a long running, widely reported on investigative series), a National Review column by economist Veronique de Rugy that also features opinions from economist Tyler Cowen and four French economists from the l’Institut d’Etudes Politiques de Paris, and a Cato Institute article by economist Alan Reynolds. All these people are noteworthy experts, in many cases notable enough to already have their own Wikipedia articles, and their publication platforms are all respected and notable. I could just add them (and others) as separate, impeccable sources, but using the Free Beacon piece is useful because the consolidation saves space and because it quotes key elements from the various articles, which in some cases are restricted to subscribed viewers. Most people wouldn't be able to access these articles, so using the Free Beacon lets readers at least see the essential points.
There's no legitimate reason to remove this source and I ask any good faith editors observing this to revert this deletion. VictorD7 (talk) 20:57, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
- No, because saying something is a matter of debate is a waste of readers' valuable time and a perfect example of WP:WEASEL words. If it is a matter of debate, then what do you propose as opposing sources? EllenCT (talk) 23:26, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
- No, it's an accurate summary supported by the sources we've already used. Deleting one side while adding biased sources from the other side of a debate is a clear WP:NPOV violation. The statement is broad because this is a broad summary survey article where any more specific discussions of these very complex arguments isn't merited. If the statement is a waste of time (which it isn't if the sources are all added) then the solution would be to delete it, not replace it with a POV segment on a niche topic you've selected on which to soapbox. VictorD7 (talk) 00:41, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
- And your commentary about the "debate" text doesn't even address the point of this section, which is to discuss the improper removal of a source. The text still stands. VictorD7 (talk) 00:59, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
- What evidence do you have that any of the cited sources are a matter of debate? Are there some bloggers unhappy about them? Because the MEDRS-grade secondary sources on the topic are not in discord. Note that your weasel words also directly violate the consensus outcome of the closed RFC above, which considered this question specifically. EllenCT (talk) 02:07, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
- The economists I listed are credentialed, highly respected experts writing in the world's premier financial newspapers (among other notable outlets), not "bloggers". The text isn't "weasel words". Your RFC, which was unproductively framed from the beginning (with an absurd apples/oranges false dichotomy) yielded a discussion that was all over the place, with the close only concluding that there was support for the material "in some form". That's extremely vague (even my final comments could be construed as supporting that). Certainly there was a lot of resistance to your proposed text. VictorD7 (talk) 06:41, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
- The free beacon says itself that it is there to promote a conservative perspective. For these claims there are a number of clear academic work that is peer reviewed and statistical data. We should use that as it is the most reliable and not put in partisan sources simply because they support your POV.Casprings (talk) 14:37, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
- Did you not read the article and miss the part where I point out that it's mostly just links to articles in other publications by respected economists? Address them (Feldstein, WSJ, FT, etc.), not the Free Beacon. That said, who cares if they're conservative? It's scary that you seem to assume that's a disqualifier. It's not. This is a controversial issue, so the sources on both sides are inherently biased. We aren't restricted to using avante garde research, and "peer review" doesn't mean endorsement or anything else too special in this context. Heck, Feldstein and the others cited are peers reviewing material. Piketty and Saez are socialist activists, and Bartels has a clear political bias, though he's so radical he's also been criticized even by some well known liberals (like Ezra Klein). Most of the sources used here and on other pages are biased in some way. That's explicitly allowed by policy. Don't use Wikipedia as a propaganda platform by adding controversial talking points supporting your POV while censoring out any counterpoints. VictorD7 (talk) 19:11, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
- The free beacon says itself that it is there to promote a conservative perspective. For these claims there are a number of clear academic work that is peer reviewed and statistical data. We should use that as it is the most reliable and not put in partisan sources simply because they support your POV.Casprings (talk) 14:37, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
- The economists I listed are credentialed, highly respected experts writing in the world's premier financial newspapers (among other notable outlets), not "bloggers". The text isn't "weasel words". Your RFC, which was unproductively framed from the beginning (with an absurd apples/oranges false dichotomy) yielded a discussion that was all over the place, with the close only concluding that there was support for the material "in some form". That's extremely vague (even my final comments could be construed as supporting that). Certainly there was a lot of resistance to your proposed text. VictorD7 (talk) 06:41, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
- What evidence do you have that any of the cited sources are a matter of debate? Are there some bloggers unhappy about them? Because the MEDRS-grade secondary sources on the topic are not in discord. Note that your weasel words also directly violate the consensus outcome of the closed RFC above, which considered this question specifically. EllenCT (talk) 02:07, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
- And your commentary about the "debate" text doesn't even address the point of this section, which is to discuss the improper removal of a source. The text still stands. VictorD7 (talk) 00:59, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
- Are you calling [7] a "news site"? It's a political propaganda blog, "dedicated to uncovering the stories that the powers that be hope will never see the light of day," without the necessary separation of management staff from editorial and reporting staff or the reputation for fact checking and accuracy necessary to pass WP:RS. It's currently carrying large ads for [8] and [9] on every page. In answer to your question, the RFC closed 15 April 2015 is clear: "Growing income inequality and wealth concentration have resulted in affluent individuals, powerful business interests and other economic elites gaining increased influence over public policy" is to be included, not weasel words about being subject to debate which were never even proposed in the RFC discussion. EllenCT (talk) 00:10, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- It's a news organization. It is large and professionally staffed by prominent journalists, albeit ones you apparently don't like. You cherry-picked the "about us" sentence. :The Washington Free Beacon is a privately owned, for-profit online newspaper that began publication on February 7, 2012. Dedicated to uncovering the stories that the powers that be hope will never see the light of day, the Free Beacon produces in-depth investigative reporting on a wide range of issues, including public policy, government affairs, international security, and media. If you have problems with it as a RS take it to WP:RSN. It looks fine. Capitalismojo (talk) 16:55, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- it literally says "editor's blog". also, guys, they have a "Hillary Laugh Button" i think we can trust them as a serious news outlet --Golbez (talk) 18:29, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- This literally says "blog" too: WP:NEWSBLOG. There's no policy prohibiting news blogs. In this case you don't need to "trust" them as a "serious" news outlet because essentially all this piece does is quote and link to prominent economists writing in other, more established publications. It's verifiable. You didn't even address the underlying issue of those sources. To address caesar's comment below, the reason for using the Free Beacon article is that at least two of those linked articles, the WSJ and Financial Times pieces, aren't freely accessible to most readers so the quotes in the Free Beacon could at least let them see the essentials. An alternative would be to instead use something like Feldstein's WSJ piece as the source and include the link to the Free Beacon article as a "see also" note for those who can't access the main article. I've seen that done elsewhere in this article. VictorD7 (talk) 19:11, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- I think our readers are better served by direct citations than by going through a blog post of this low quality. --Golbez (talk) 20:11, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- Not if they can't directly access those sources to....you know....read them. You again totally dodged the substance of my post. BTW, I think it's a perfectly fine news site, especially compared to many of the other sources used throughout this article, but I'd be willing to use one or more of the cited, even higher quality sources as the actual reference(s) if we can add the Free Beacon link as a "see also" for those who lack access. VictorD7 (talk) 00:06, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- VictorD7, you basically said that if a source can't be accessed on the Internet for free, it should not be included. Wikipedia in fact allows offline and paywalled sources. --Golbez (talk) 02:26, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- No, I just said that if it is closed off then it's better to include a link to a readable version, or one that quotes the essential elements, too. There's no rational reason not to. VictorD7 (talk) 03:59, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- There's a reason if the article is a poor opinion piece that you're using to lead in to the actual sources. --Golbez (talk) 05:10, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- Did you read it? What was "poor" about it? It mostly just accurately reports what various prominent critics are saying. As for having a bias, we're supposed to edit neutrally but the sources aren't required to be without bias, especially if covering different POVs in a debate is the point. VictorD7 (talk) 20:59, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- No, actually, the last image told me enough of the quality of the column. It's like discarding people who say "Micro$oft" or "Faux News". You don't see that in quality discourse, nor do you see stupid photoshops of those you disagree with. I mean, it's fine for his blog, but it's beyond the pale to suggest that this is a quality work of journalism worthy of citation on Wikipedia. --Golbez (talk) 21:15, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- Sure, because classy publications like the New Yorker, Time, or major urban newspapers never use cartoons or caricatures. So this far into the discussion you still haven't read it. Fine. What do you think about my proposal to cite the WSJ piece instead, and only use the Free Beacon link as a "see also" sub note for those who can't access it?VictorD7 (talk) 21:30, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- No, actually, the last image told me enough of the quality of the column. It's like discarding people who say "Micro$oft" or "Faux News". You don't see that in quality discourse, nor do you see stupid photoshops of those you disagree with. I mean, it's fine for his blog, but it's beyond the pale to suggest that this is a quality work of journalism worthy of citation on Wikipedia. --Golbez (talk) 21:15, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- Did you read it? What was "poor" about it? It mostly just accurately reports what various prominent critics are saying. As for having a bias, we're supposed to edit neutrally but the sources aren't required to be without bias, especially if covering different POVs in a debate is the point. VictorD7 (talk) 20:59, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- There's a reason if the article is a poor opinion piece that you're using to lead in to the actual sources. --Golbez (talk) 05:10, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- No, I just said that if it is closed off then it's better to include a link to a readable version, or one that quotes the essential elements, too. There's no rational reason not to. VictorD7 (talk) 03:59, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- VictorD7, you basically said that if a source can't be accessed on the Internet for free, it should not be included. Wikipedia in fact allows offline and paywalled sources. --Golbez (talk) 02:26, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- Not if they can't directly access those sources to....you know....read them. You again totally dodged the substance of my post. BTW, I think it's a perfectly fine news site, especially compared to many of the other sources used throughout this article, but I'd be willing to use one or more of the cited, even higher quality sources as the actual reference(s) if we can add the Free Beacon link as a "see also" for those who lack access. VictorD7 (talk) 00:06, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- I think our readers are better served by direct citations than by going through a blog post of this low quality. --Golbez (talk) 20:11, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- This literally says "blog" too: WP:NEWSBLOG. There's no policy prohibiting news blogs. In this case you don't need to "trust" them as a "serious" news outlet because essentially all this piece does is quote and link to prominent economists writing in other, more established publications. It's verifiable. You didn't even address the underlying issue of those sources. To address caesar's comment below, the reason for using the Free Beacon article is that at least two of those linked articles, the WSJ and Financial Times pieces, aren't freely accessible to most readers so the quotes in the Free Beacon could at least let them see the essentials. An alternative would be to instead use something like Feldstein's WSJ piece as the source and include the link to the Free Beacon article as a "see also" note for those who can't access the main article. I've seen that done elsewhere in this article. VictorD7 (talk) 19:11, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- It's a blog. This is why we should not have allowed news blogs as RS at all in the first place, because the line between reliable and unreliable blogs is so messy. Fully concur with EllenCT's incisive and accurate analysis. There are numerous traditionally published conservative periodicals that have likely published well-written articles that can be cited for the same point. Use those instead. --Coolcaesar (talk) 17:17, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- Exactly, and it's a blog piece that is an attack in Piketty's work, which is not the subject of this article. The silly propaganda images contained within of Piketty and Krugman demonstrate that this is a right-wing hit piece, not anything close to a reliable source. Not only that, but the Chris Giles piece this article references has largely been discredited. Ergo, this garbage does not belong in this article.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 17:22, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- it literally says "editor's blog". also, guys, they have a "Hillary Laugh Button" i think we can trust them as a serious news outlet --Golbez (talk) 18:29, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- It's a news organization. It is large and professionally staffed by prominent journalists, albeit ones you apparently don't like. You cherry-picked the "about us" sentence. :The Washington Free Beacon is a privately owned, for-profit online newspaper that began publication on February 7, 2012. Dedicated to uncovering the stories that the powers that be hope will never see the light of day, the Free Beacon produces in-depth investigative reporting on a wide range of issues, including public policy, government affairs, international security, and media. If you have problems with it as a RS take it to WP:RSN. It looks fine. Capitalismojo (talk) 16:55, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- Are you calling [7] a "news site"? It's a political propaganda blog, "dedicated to uncovering the stories that the powers that be hope will never see the light of day," without the necessary separation of management staff from editorial and reporting staff or the reputation for fact checking and accuracy necessary to pass WP:RS. It's currently carrying large ads for [8] and [9] on every page. In answer to your question, the RFC closed 15 April 2015 is clear: "Growing income inequality and wealth concentration have resulted in affluent individuals, powerful business interests and other economic elites gaining increased influence over public policy" is to be included, not weasel words about being subject to debate which were never even proposed in the RFC discussion. EllenCT (talk) 00:10, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- I'll note that you didn't answer the question, Ellen. As for your RFC, the closer's quote was only "The consensus is to include both in some form", which the current, neutrally worded sentence does, complete with your leftist sources of choice. I'll add that the RFC was barely participated in, and four of the seven respondents either outright rejected your proposed addition, supported it with the qualification that you attribute it (which you didn't do, and which, of course, would only emphasize the need for balancing material), or commented on the absurd apples and oranges false dichotomy of your RFC's construction that limited its clarity and usefulness from the outset. That's probably why the closer felt compelled to leave the "form" of the inclusion vague and undecided by the RFC. VictorD7 (talk) 19:12, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- We should not provide parity between mainstream views on inequality and "conservative" views that are only expressed in opinion pieces. If those writers who are economists have an acceptance for the views they express in editorials, then one would expect them to have prominence in mainstream economics journals, which they do not. TFD (talk) 02:38, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- What are you talking about? All the economists I cited above are very respected and have had all sorts of works published in "mainstream economics journals" and elsewhere. I could have added some (mentioned in the US economy article) who have received the Nobel Prize. But you certainly shouldn't assume that every piece of avante garde (cutting edge) research that comes along represents established mainstream consensus, even if it's published in an economics journal, especially on controversial issues. These articles themselves even typically have disclaimers along the lines of "these results are tentative and more research is needed". There's certainly no basis for drawing a distinction between "mainstream" and "conservative" economists; both liberal and conservative views are established and widespread enough to merit coverage if we decide that such a debate is worth mentioning here. The real question is how much detail should be included, and on which niche topics. VictorD7 (talk) 03:59, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- We need to be cautious in presenting a false balance. Same as with climate change, and other subjects, we need to rely on academic and mainstream economists views, rather than politicians, lobbyists, left-wing or right-wing media outlets. For the conservative and liberal views on the economy of the US we have the respective articles for that. - Cwobeel (talk) 03:29, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- Also very importantly, the section "Income, poverty and wealth" needs to be a WP:SUMMARY of Income in the United States, Poverty in the United States, Affluence in the United States, and Income inequality in the United States, an not a section created from scratch, see WP:SYNC. - Cwobeel (talk) 03:44, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- We need to be even more cautious about presenting a false consensus in Wikipedia's voice, and I suggest you read the bios of some of the economists I cited above. However, I do think you get at one important point by mentioning subtopic articles. They would be a much better place for detailed presentations of these various political/economic opinions than this broad, summary country article. VictorD7 (talk) 03:59, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
Density Calculation
Dear Editors,
We were just checking the population density of the US for fun, and when we entered the figures for square mileage and population on this page, we came up with a different result. Can you explain the discrepancy? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.194.73.3 (talk) 00:18, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
- @70.194.73.3: Thanks for pointing that out! The numbers were off, in addition to the math being wrong, the population was out of date and the density calculation was using total area instead of land area. They should be fixed now! Winner 42 Talk to me! 00:46, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
Religious affiliation in the U.S.
The table & section needs to be updated from the 2007 survey to the 2014 survey.Phospheros (talk) 19:27, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
- Do you happen to have a reliable source that has 2014 survey data? --Chamith (talk) 19:03, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- The current ref is the same, the link is dynamic: http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/ but here is a specific link: http://www.pewforum.org/2015/05/12/americas-changing-religious-landscape/ --Phospheros (talk) 21:43, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
Republican Party center-right
Is the Republican Party center-right? While there may be some members who are more center-leaning, I don't think I usually see the party as a whole described as being center-right, but I can't check the source. This is at United States#Parties and elections. Dustin (talk) 21:39, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- Whatever we say about the Republican Party, it needs to be fully attributed per WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV, and include competing viewpoints ( fully attributed as well), if any. - Cwobeel (talk) 22:13, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- Also note that what may be considered "left" or "right" in the US, can be considered very different in other countries, thus the need for full attribution. - Cwobeel (talk) 22:14, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
- Cwobeel, since it says "Within American political culture", the fact "left" and "right" may have different meanings in other countries is irrelevant. But both parties, particularly at the leadership level, are predominantly at the center of the U.S. spectrum, which is where they have to be to compete at a national level. 00:24, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- Whatever the distinction, it needs to be attributed. - Cwobeel (talk) 03:25, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- I think one might want to state they have become more conservative since the 50s to 70s. I think that can be backed up by peer reveiwed articles. When I get to a computer I will research some cites. Casprings (talk) 13:34, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- Cwobeel, since it says "Within American political culture", the fact "left" and "right" may have different meanings in other countries is irrelevant. But both parties, particularly at the leadership level, are predominantly at the center of the U.S. spectrum, which is where they have to be to compete at a national level. 00:24, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
OMG
So I stop watching this page, and I see it has devolved with editors whom would like to SOAPBOX attempting to edit a million views plus a year article into a piece that requires it to be locked due to POV pushing. -sigh- --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 16:10, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- Yep. It's shithouse. I imagine we could vastly improve the quality of discourse here with a couple of well-targeted bans. But that requires going through months of procedure and debate and blaaah blaaah who has time for that. Much easier to hit unwatch and just get on with life; it's not like we have any personal stake in this article. If other people step up, awesome. If they don't, well, I guess Wikipedia was a nice experiment while it lasted. The bureaucracy serves to protect the trolls. --Golbez (talk) 16:48, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- It was locked up due to edit warring, which is not acceptable. If the section "Income, poverty and wealth" can be created as WP:SUMMARY of Income in the United States, Poverty in the United States, Affluence in the United States, and Income inequality in the United States, and not a section created from scratch, this entire saga could be avoided. 17:02, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- Yep. After a long period of relative stability that finally led to a recovery of the page's "good" status that had been lost in early 2012, a couple of familiar faces returned and tested the waters by trying to blitz the article with sweeping POV changes across multiple sections over opposition from multiple editors. VictorD7 (talk) 20:29, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- Takes two to edit war, champ. In fact, I see sufficient reverts from you to nudge the three revert rule. Protecting the page actually protected you from getting yourself blocked. Do try to be a bit more careful, hm? --Golbez (talk) 21:50, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- I only had three reverts in 24 hours, and in this case it was more than two people "edit warring". The problem was the massive POV pushing attempt the op here is rightly complaining about. Since you've repeatedly shown yourself to be little more than a bad tempered troll whose contributions are almost never productive (latest example: [10]) I bet you and I would disagree over whose banning would benefit this article, chief. VictorD7 (talk) 19:00, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- This is some expert-level word lawyering. Yes, you did three reverts, hence nudging you against the rule. Not passing it. Another revert would have gotten you blocked; three is where the warning hops in. And I'm amused that you take "it takes two to edit war" and then say "more than two were doing it!" as some sort of schoolyard defense. My point was is that you were edit warring as well, not that other people were also doing it. You were edit warring, Victor. You were edit warring. You reverted three times in 24 hours on an article that got locked for edit warring. You were edit warring. And now you're blaming other people of edit warring when you were edit warring. As for our relative qualities, I don't need to engage in that because I know I'm productive and a vast net positive to Wikipedia, except when it comes to dealing with the bullshit that passes for discourse on this talk page, in which case I freely admit to being a troll because that's what it deserves lately. People get way, way too tied up with this article, as if it reflects on them personally. Unlike you and some others here, my politics are opaque because I don't base my entire editing career around them. I'm here to objectively improve the encyclopedia rather than promote or defend my particular politics. --Golbez (talk) 19:35, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- Well at least you admit to being a troll, though I guess you forgot that you have engaged in lengthy political debates before here that have made your left leaning political views quite clear. In fact you gave some dubious speech about how you used to be a libertarian but changed over time. I'll add that you also presided as self appointed steward over this article during the years in which it degenerated to the point of losing its "good" status in early 2012. You later laughably tried to blame me for that even though I didn't create my account until later in 2012 after that had already happened and had never edited Wikipedia before then. By contrast, while I've always been open and honest about my politics, I've edited for neutrality, not to propagandize, and I was one of the posters who put in the hard work to upgrade article quality over the past couple of years to the point where "good" status was restored, a project you mostly just watched and occasionally undermined with your trolling. So I'm glad we're both clear on how we see ourselves and each other. VictorD7 (talk) 21:15, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- " In fact you gave some dubious speech about how you used to be a libertarian but changed over time. " I don't accuse you of being lying when you indicate what your politics are, so don't do it to me. It's one thing to call me a troll or point out inaccuracies, it's another thing entirely to accuse me of lying about who I am. Also now it's my turn to point out how you ignored the meat of my statement for the low-hanging fruit. Hey, pointless flame wars on Wikipedia are fun, aren't they? I wonder which one of us will give up first! --Golbez (talk) 21:38, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- I was hoping to give you the last word since you sound obsessed with it (as I gave it to you in the other section where I wasted time having a lengthy exchange with you about an article you eventually admitted you hadn't even read), but I have to correct you by pointing out that you've ignored the "meat" of this section, which was the POV pushing that was the underlying problem here, not the "edit warring" per se. The latter resulted from the former, and frankly the article would have been worse without editors being willing to revert. VictorD7 (talk) 21:55, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- " In fact you gave some dubious speech about how you used to be a libertarian but changed over time. " I don't accuse you of being lying when you indicate what your politics are, so don't do it to me. It's one thing to call me a troll or point out inaccuracies, it's another thing entirely to accuse me of lying about who I am. Also now it's my turn to point out how you ignored the meat of my statement for the low-hanging fruit. Hey, pointless flame wars on Wikipedia are fun, aren't they? I wonder which one of us will give up first! --Golbez (talk) 21:38, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- Well at least you admit to being a troll, though I guess you forgot that you have engaged in lengthy political debates before here that have made your left leaning political views quite clear. In fact you gave some dubious speech about how you used to be a libertarian but changed over time. I'll add that you also presided as self appointed steward over this article during the years in which it degenerated to the point of losing its "good" status in early 2012. You later laughably tried to blame me for that even though I didn't create my account until later in 2012 after that had already happened and had never edited Wikipedia before then. By contrast, while I've always been open and honest about my politics, I've edited for neutrality, not to propagandize, and I was one of the posters who put in the hard work to upgrade article quality over the past couple of years to the point where "good" status was restored, a project you mostly just watched and occasionally undermined with your trolling. So I'm glad we're both clear on how we see ourselves and each other. VictorD7 (talk) 21:15, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- This is some expert-level word lawyering. Yes, you did three reverts, hence nudging you against the rule. Not passing it. Another revert would have gotten you blocked; three is where the warning hops in. And I'm amused that you take "it takes two to edit war" and then say "more than two were doing it!" as some sort of schoolyard defense. My point was is that you were edit warring as well, not that other people were also doing it. You were edit warring, Victor. You were edit warring. You reverted three times in 24 hours on an article that got locked for edit warring. You were edit warring. And now you're blaming other people of edit warring when you were edit warring. As for our relative qualities, I don't need to engage in that because I know I'm productive and a vast net positive to Wikipedia, except when it comes to dealing with the bullshit that passes for discourse on this talk page, in which case I freely admit to being a troll because that's what it deserves lately. People get way, way too tied up with this article, as if it reflects on them personally. Unlike you and some others here, my politics are opaque because I don't base my entire editing career around them. I'm here to objectively improve the encyclopedia rather than promote or defend my particular politics. --Golbez (talk) 19:35, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- I only had three reverts in 24 hours, and in this case it was more than two people "edit warring". The problem was the massive POV pushing attempt the op here is rightly complaining about. Since you've repeatedly shown yourself to be little more than a bad tempered troll whose contributions are almost never productive (latest example: [10]) I bet you and I would disagree over whose banning would benefit this article, chief. VictorD7 (talk) 19:00, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Bans? I think that is unnecessary Golbez. I may disagree with other editors, but to ban them outright, when they believe they are doing what is best for the article (even if I may oppose that opinion) is IMHO a bridge to far.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 20:48, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- We ban and block people every day who are doing what they believe is best for an article, because their belief is incompatible with everyone else's. I'm not proposing doing it; I'm certainly not going to spend the energy to do it. I'm just the crotchety old uncle in the corner complaining about kids these days. I am so ever this shit, it's mindblowing, and Wikipedia will be left off worse for it. --Golbez (talk) 20:55, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- Takes two to edit war, champ. In fact, I see sufficient reverts from you to nudge the three revert rule. Protecting the page actually protected you from getting yourself blocked. Do try to be a bit more careful, hm? --Golbez (talk) 21:50, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- It's really upsetting to see something like this happening to one of the most visited pages on Wikipedia.--Chamith (talk) 19:36, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- And I concur with Golbez and Chamith. --Coolcaesar (talk) 05:58, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
GA Reassessment
- This discussion is transcluded from Talk:United States/GA3. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.
Initial statement
I am concerned about the status of this article as GA status. As can be seen in the article's talk page there is SOAPBOXing occurring, leading to the lack of stability. Therefore this article fails criteria 4 and criteria 5 as listed at WP:GACR. Therefore, I am nominating this article for reassessment. I might be one of the top ten content contributors to this article, by amount of data added (not edits), but that doesn't mean I can't be critical of it.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 20:43, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- By soapboxing, do you mean the blatant disregard of the outcome of this RFC or something else; if so, then what in particular are you accusing of being soapboxing? EllenCT (talk) 17:44, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- The above editor has been slowly pushing to advance an agenda on the talk page, and making edits on the article to that affect. That makes the article non-neutral, as well as non-stable. Please again see WP:NOTSOAPBOX. See this statement by Cwobeel:
EllenCT, politically speaking, I am on your side of the aisle. But your approach here is really disturbing when you are not capable to realize that comments from you such as:
If your idea of an excellent encyclopedia article emphasizes only the topics according to your discredited political preferences, then perhaps your skills would better serve your fellow citizens by editing Conservapedia
, are utterly useless in a discussion about how to improve an article.
- The above editor has been slowly pushing to advance an agenda on the talk page, and making edits on the article to that affect. That makes the article non-neutral, as well as non-stable. Please again see WP:NOTSOAPBOX. See this statement by Cwobeel:
- It is this type of environment on the talk page that has lead to the article being non-neutral and non-stable. I walked away from this article because the civility was gone and the POV pushing was blatant. Seeing how it was listed as a GA, having reviewed GAs in the past, knowing it did not meet the criteria required by GA, it begged to be reassessed.
- That being said this reassessment is not about the actions of EllenCT, this reassessment is about the article. It was locked due to edit warring. This is sufficient to show it no longer meets the stability requirement required by GACR. During the edit war the above user changed (by reverting a revert) the description of a major party to right-wing (instead of centre-right), showing a POV push targeting a party the editor appears to not agree with, among other edits.
- This means that criteria 4 and 5 are not met, and thus this article should be delisted.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 23:55, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- Note, I had a vested interest in seeing this article improve, adding 48k worth of references to the article, but the vitriol found on the talk page drove me away from this article :( .--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 19:34, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- I'm sorry you were offended, but I stand by my statement. After repeatedly accusing me of POV pushing without providing any reasons why, for example, describing economic outcomes by education level is biased, this is clearly a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Need I make a list of all your unsubstantiated, uncivil such accusations over the past year so that they can be compared to the statements about which you complain at such length? EllenCT (talk) 01:03, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
I haven't been involved with this article for months, and only recently submitted a couple of comments to the talk page. I concur that it has become a hotbed lately of POV pushing, particularly around fashionable discussions relating to income inequality. This has lead to arguments over how much should a high level summary article include, as well efforts to slant the writing. The result is both a battleground and sections that have had large POV additions and charts that are WP:UNDUE to say the least. This had degraded the quality of the article IMHO, and it's clearly not stable.Mattnad (talk) 14:04, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
I helped other editors to bring this article to GA state last time it was nominated. However since then, like RightCowLeftCoast said I too noticed many cases of POV pushings. Most of the time editors involved in the dispute didn't care enough to reach a consensus on talk page first, or they jut didn't want to wait for other editors to reply to their discussions. Some editors just kept reverting others and provided explanations as an edit summary. They headed to the talk page after edit-warring. By then the damage was already done and it lead to full protection of the article. Anyhow this article has changed a lot after the last GA review and I too believe all these POV pushings over time has damaged the integrity of the article. --Chamith (talk) 19:28, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- @ChamithN: I was also part of the group that got this article to GA status, but the constant lengthy political bickering kept me away from the article after that. It is unfortunate that there seem to be a number of editors who solely edit the politically controversial parts of this article to push their POV. These folks are not seen editing other sections of the article nor do they edit much outside of United States political issue articles. While this is not a crime, it has led to significant WP:BATTLEGROUND and un-civil behavior that has culminated in the protection of this article. I'm sure everyone knows who I am talking about. Dispute resolution has failed time and time again for resolving these politically changed editors issues, so perhaps some topic bans are in order. Winner 42 Talk to me! 20:40, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- If you are going to make such accusations, I would like to see specific diffs supporting what you see as disruptive behavior. I've been editing this article for years, am also in the top ten by text added, within a few tenths of a percent of the other recent top editors, and yes, I certainly do focus on standard of living, health, economics, and related issues. I make a point of discussing all changes for at least a week before actual editing (in stark contrast to the large number of undiscussed edits we've seen here in the past month) and I certainly don't do undiscussed mass reverts such as those which touched off the recent edit war leading to full protection. Should the editor who decided to make that undiscussed mass revert be sanctioned? I am very upset about the blatant attempt to disregard the most recent RFC outcome, and suggest that is the most disruptive behavior that we've seen in this article beyond simple vandalism. I have opened several RFCs here, and never once failed to abide by their outcome. Suggesting that any discussion of controversial topics needs to be avoided isn't just contrary to the first sentence of the WP:WEIGHT policy, it's absurd from an encyclopedist perspective. Can you imagine an article about North Korea which doesn't discuss human rights? How is topic banning editors who follow the discussion and RFC process on the most prominent controversies -- which I repeat WP:LEAD directs should appear in the introduction -- any different? EllenCT (talk) 23:48, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose delisting and request closing of GA3 The initial reasoning has no bases in GA criteria. There is nothing in the criteria about the talk page demonstrating "soapboxing" etc, and no specific item or concern from the article itself has been questioned. Edit warring on a GA article is also not likely to be a reason to delist. It IS a reason to stop a GA review. Therefore, if this is a review of the article, this must be closed until the edit warring is over...not just until the article is unlocked. If we delisted every time there was edit warring on GA or FA....we wouldn't have any GA or FA articles.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:26, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- Last I checked neutrality and stability were two criteria of a GA article. This article has neither at the moment. I believe Mattnad, ChamithN, and Winner 42 would agree with me on that.
- Furthermore, unless I am unaware, there is not different criteria to base delisting articles. Therefore, we must look at the article based on GACR.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 01:17, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- I'm going to be hopeful that EllenCT's giant disputes resolution section (props to him for that) will lead to some stability and neutrality in the short term, but the question remains whether such a high-traffic article can remain stable in the long term. I think whether a GA review is required will become apparent in the week following unprotection depending if edit warring resumes or not. Winner 42 Talk to me! 01:43, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- How can you cherry pick the criteria you want to use when the criteria is clear. You must quick decline a GA nomination if there is edit warring. How can you use that to begin a GA3? If you have no specific concerns how can anything be addressed?--Mark Miller (talk) 03:04, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Mark Miller:I think you are misunderstanding me, I'm agreeing with you. I think that we should wait to see if "significant instability persists for more than a couple of weeks" before considering a GA reassessment. Winner 42 Talk to me! 03:28, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- Sorry...my fault. I was replying to RightCowLeftCoast and should have stated that.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:44, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Mark Miller:I think you are misunderstanding me, I'm agreeing with you. I think that we should wait to see if "significant instability persists for more than a couple of weeks" before considering a GA reassessment. Winner 42 Talk to me! 03:28, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- How can you cherry pick the criteria you want to use when the criteria is clear. You must quick decline a GA nomination if there is edit warring. How can you use that to begin a GA3? If you have no specific concerns how can anything be addressed?--Mark Miller (talk) 03:04, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- I'm going to be hopeful that EllenCT's giant disputes resolution section (props to him for that) will lead to some stability and neutrality in the short term, but the question remains whether such a high-traffic article can remain stable in the long term. I think whether a GA review is required will become apparent in the week following unprotection depending if edit warring resumes or not. Winner 42 Talk to me! 01:43, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- Our guidelines actually speak directly to this issue and both RightCowLeftCoast and I are correct: "Requesting reassessment during a content dispute or edit war is usually inappropriate, wait until the article stabilizes and then consider reassessment. If significant instability persists for more than a couple of weeks, then reassessment on the grounds of instability may be considered.". So, while the lock will run out tomorrow, I urge RightCowLeftCoast to close this now per guidelines for community reassessment and if the problem persists re-open based on that fact.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:16, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- Mark has a good point. I understand why RightCowLeftCoast listed this page for reassessment and I would have done the same thing given that this article ranks 58 by traffic. And as he pointed out stability and factual accuracy are key points of a GA article, but, like WP:GAR says its not appropriate to reassess the quality until the edit warring is over. Which means whoever is going reassess the article must start his review after the article is stabilized. However, I don't actually think reassessment request should be closed. My opinion is that the reviewer should take a while before jumping into the reassessment. Because, article healing process takes time.--Chamith (talk) 06:10, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- For me it's not content disputes alone. The article is bloated and it's not just from POV pushing (although there is that problem too).Mattnad (talk) 16:05, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- Would you say there is more bloat in the sports section or in redundant references? Do you think the history section can be further summarized? EllenCT (talk) 01:30, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- I think Mattnad is correct. The article is heavily bloated, but not in any particular section. I think the article is graphic heavy, needs a major copy edit for brevity, clarity, encyclopedic value, and undue weight issues in general. There is a lot to be said about redundant references and weak references needing strengthening but I think the talk page is getting a general consensus on a number of issues.--Mark Miller (talk) 23:23, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
- Would you say there is more bloat in the sports section or in redundant references? Do you think the history section can be further summarized? EllenCT (talk) 01:30, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- For me it's not content disputes alone. The article is bloated and it's not just from POV pushing (although there is that problem too).Mattnad (talk) 16:05, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- Mark has a good point. I understand why RightCowLeftCoast listed this page for reassessment and I would have done the same thing given that this article ranks 58 by traffic. And as he pointed out stability and factual accuracy are key points of a GA article, but, like WP:GAR says its not appropriate to reassess the quality until the edit warring is over. Which means whoever is going reassess the article must start his review after the article is stabilized. However, I don't actually think reassessment request should be closed. My opinion is that the reviewer should take a while before jumping into the reassessment. Because, article healing process takes time.--Chamith (talk) 06:10, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
As one of the editors who helped get this article past the GA review, I still notice all of the POV pushing. Sadly, it is not possible to have an article like this stay neutral because of so many different opinions. The article itself is not that bad, and perhaps it would be best to revert to the version before the POV pushing began. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 13:58, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
- The lock of this article has ended, the edit conflict remains, with more tags having appeared in this article since the last time I edited it (until the recent edits)(in April). Therefore I would say this article does not pass the neutral part of GAR, and a delisting would be appropriate at this time.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 06:42, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
- Sadly, I would have to agree so. It's shame since it was promoted so recently. Unfortunately, edit warring simply bloats the article. Still, outside of the fact that it is not a GA by wikipedia standards, I would still say it is a pretty informative article, and I am still happy we were able to improve it. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 01:51, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Agreed. Prior to all of our involvement, many sentences were uncited, and subject to WP:BURDEN. This is no longer the case. The article was C/E'd to a high degree, and is easier to read. Unfortunately, as it contains controversial sections, it has become a place of conflicting editors, all whom believe they are doing the right thing for the article.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 04:05, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Sadly, I would have to agree so. It's shame since it was promoted so recently. Unfortunately, edit warring simply bloats the article. Still, outside of the fact that it is not a GA by wikipedia standards, I would still say it is a pretty informative article, and I am still happy we were able to improve it. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 01:51, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Proposed compromise on taxation progressivity/ redistributive spending.
The current long standing Government finance segment stays the way it is, and we add a comparative sentence on redistribution to either the Economy or Income sections along the lines of... "The United States has a smaller welfare state and redistributes less income through government action than European nations."...sourced to something generic and relatively non polemical like this OECD paper that mostly just lays out facts: [11] (see especially figure 2 on page 5).
That's similar to a once present segment deleted during article cleanup/reduction a couple of years ago, and should address any concerns about only telling part of the fiscal story, without obliterating the tax progressivity segment which is a legitimate stand alone topic in its own right for reasons that go beyond just income distribution (e.g. economic growth, revenue volatility, and simply accurately describing "taxation"). I'll add that there is already extensive commentary on income inequality per se in the Income section, including international comparisons.
Does that sound reasonable, EllenCT? Mattnad? Anyone else who wants to weigh in? VictorD7 (talk) 20:47, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
- I'm completely okay with that. Going back and forth between "among the most progressive in the developed world" (Federal income tax) and "among the least progressive in the developed world" (overall fiscal policy) isn't working. EllenCT (talk) 17:46, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- Thank you. I'll also note that, as the OECD paper makes clear, there's a difference between redistributive impact and progressivity per se. Nation A can have a more progressive tax structure than nation B but if it's much smaller in size (overall tax burden) it can have less redistributive impact than nation B's. That US taxation has one of the biggest redistributive impacts despite being smaller in size than most OECD nations' underscores how extremely progressive it is. US transfer spending is fairly progressive too, but makes a smaller redistributive impact than its taxation does, the opposite of typical European systems. I figure I'll add the proposed sentence to the Economy section since it seems to fit better there. VictorD7 (talk) 19:10, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- Well overall US taxation is among the most progressive in the developed world,* and, as I led off this section by saying, I think the progressivity tax segment in Government finance should stay the way it is. The compromise is adding the sentence to the Economy section about the size of the welfare state and overall redistribution. What figure 2 shows is that the US redistributes among the most through taxes (the extreme progressivity makes up for the relatively smaller size of the tax burden here) and among the least through transfer spending (and less overall). The latter doesn't necessarily speak to progressivity per se (which deals with structure) as much as the smaller size of US welfare spending. So I was planning on going with the sentence I suggested above, about how the US has a smaller welfare state and redistributes less income overall than in European nations. That's safe, solid, accurate language.
- *A fact underscored repeatedly in this OECD paper. For example: (page 13) "In many high-tax countries, taxes have a relatively low redistributive impact because they embody little progressivity (Figure 7, Panel B) – this is particularly the case in Belgium, Denmark, Iceland and Sweden. And household taxes are more progressive in the United States than in most EU countries.16 However, some countries (including Chile, Korea and Japan) combine a relatively low tax burden with very little progressivity."
- (page 27) "Various studies have compared the progressivity of tax systems of European countries with that of the United States (see for instance Prasad and Deng, 2009; Piketty and Saez, 2007; Joumard, 2001). Though they use different definitions, methods and databases, they reach the same conclusion: "the US tax system is more progressive than those of the continental European countries."
- Also worth noting: (page 1) "The redistributive impact of taxes and transfers depends on the size, mix and the progressivity of each component." It's not just about progressivity.
- (page 4) "Cash transfers reduce income dispersion more than taxes (Figure 2).5 The United States, however, is an outlier with virtually the same redistribution achieved through taxes as cash transfers. It relies heavily on the tax code to provide support to low income groups – the Earned Income Tax Credit is one of the largest US social programmes – while other countries rely more on cash transfers."
- (page 7) "For instance, in Portugal and the United States transfers attain about the same reduction in inequality but for different reasons. In the United States, the limited reduction in inequality is due to the smaller size of transfers compared with the OECD average whereas in Portugal it is mainly due to their lower progressivity." Hopefully this helps clarify things. VictorD7 (talk) 18:58, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- It's reassuring to see, editors who appear to be on opposite ends of the political spectrum to reach a consensus, thus bettering the article.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 05:33, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- Unfortunately Ellen just violated the compromise by completely rewriting the section she had just agreed to leave as is, deleting the international comparison entirely. She apparently wants to disregard inconvenient, undisputed, well sourced facts and cherry-pick her international comparisons. Of course I reverted. VictorD7 (talk) 20:39, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- It's reassuring to see, editors who appear to be on opposite ends of the political spectrum to reach a consensus, thus bettering the article.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 05:33, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- (page 7) "For instance, in Portugal and the United States transfers attain about the same reduction in inequality but for different reasons. In the United States, the limited reduction in inequality is due to the smaller size of transfers compared with the OECD average whereas in Portugal it is mainly due to their lower progressivity." Hopefully this helps clarify things. VictorD7 (talk) 18:58, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
A radical proposal to reduce the POV pushing on this article
As you all know the article for The United States has recently become a hotbed for POV pushers to advance their views on the nation. The article on The United States is also a very long, currently at 321,081 bytes. My proposal is that we reduce and get rid of a number of the most POV-pushy sections of the article entirely.
First on the chopping block is Government finance, the second paragraph can be removed entirely. It gives undue weight to the issue of income inequality, which while an important issue in American politics does not deserve its own paragraph.
Secondly, the National Debt is given undue weight as well. We don't need a subsection talking about this, a single sentence with debt as a % of gdp and (possibly) the credit rating would work.
Finally, the Income, poverty and wealth section also can be reduced to a single sentence with a statistic discussing the distribution of wealth.
I understand that this will likely annoy a lot of editors, but that is the point. I believe that these are some of the measures necessary for the article to retain its GA status by reducing the undue weight that is currently being given to these political issues. Winner 42 Talk to me! 03:06, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- Agreed. This article could benefit as a summary article by limiting itself to country descriptions which find their way into reliable scholarly sources published in academic journals or peer reviewed publishing houses -- rather than featuring pressing issues ripped from the headlines based on statistics which are then revised within ninety days. Government finance and National debt should be linked to subsidiary articles, reduced to a single sentence such as Winner 42 suggests. It could slow the volatility of the page. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 10:42, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- An excellent proposal. Fully concur. Obvious violations of WP:UNDUE. --Coolcaesar (talk) 13:20, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- Agree with this. POV pushing or not, this article has become bloated. The opportunity for expansive discussion of the topics is in the related articles.Mattnad (talk) 15:40, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- Absolutely not. Just because you're unhappy with the outcome of an RFC and unwilling to abide by its closure doesn't mean it's an opportunity to scrub all of the largest controversies concerning the economic situation which comprise the clear plurality of headlines on national issues these days. The article has been incrementally and painstakingly negotiated with consensus compromise over more than half a decade for some of the statements in question, and there would be no edit wars if people would abide by the RFC consensus process. The article achieved GA status with the sections you want to delete, and would clearly lack the comprehensiveness required by the GA criteria if the sections you want to delete are deleted. And if you seriously think that "the Income, poverty and wealth section also can be reduced to a single sentence" then what do you propose for that sentence? EllenCT (talk) 17:53, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- "comprise the clear plurality of headlines on national issues these days" Wikipedia is not about shoving in whatever is getting headlines these days. WP:RECENTISM. Reflecting headlines is not what this article is for, in any way. --Golbez (talk) 18:28, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- By "these days" I mean since the very early 2000s. Per WP:LEAD, the largest controversies shouldn't just be in the article, they should, according to that guideline, be summarized in the introduction. EllenCT (talk) 18:30, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- "As of 2007, the United States had a GINI coefficient of 45.0, the 41st highest in the world" With a citation to the CIA factbook would suffice. As Golbez has pointed out, all these sections are very Recentism focused while providing WP:UNDUE weight. Additionally, previous consensuses can be changed by new consensuses such as the one forming here, in fact that is the point of consensus in the first place. Winner 42 Talk to me! 19:02, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- Less than one out of twenty economics undergrads can correctly state what the Gini (not all caps) coefficient means, let alone the general international readership. Your proposal doesn't say anything about the trends or the vast numbers of GenXers who have had to move back in with their parents. I don't see how you can make a WP:UNDUE argument against text which has been in the article for several years, and for which corresponding detail is in most of the other developed nations' articles. And again, you are trying to remove controversies when the WP:LEAD guideline directs that "prominent controversies" shouldn't just be in the article, they should be in the intro. EllenCT (talk) 19:09, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- We know where you stand on this proposition. How we capture a summary sentence or two can be worked on. Is there a reason we'd want to add large sections on your topics of choice for a summary article vs. reserving an expansive exploration in articles dedicated to the topic? Coming back to this being an encyclopedia, I do not see anything like what you propose in Encarta or Britannica. Recent-ism or not, there's a level of detail that's out of whack here. We shouldn't have, as you put it, "the vast numbers of GenXers who have had to move back in with their parents" in a summary level article.Mattnad (talk) 19:21, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Fine, we can link the article on it then, Gini coefficient. If you have a better statistical measure for income inequality please say so (I would not be opposed to something like the Hoover index). The article on the United States is not meant to describe the many political controversies currently going on in the United States and the WP:LEAD guideline specifically has a footnote that says not to give undue weight. How would you determine what is a major controversy in the United States anyway? I could list hundreds of current issues (Gun control, drug crime, relations with Russia) and past issues (Gold standard, tariffs, slavery) that could all be considered major controversies, but have no place in a summery level article. Additionally, a section's duration of stay in an article has no bearing on its neutrality, not does the existence of the section in other articles. Winner 42 Talk to me! 19:32, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- WP:NPOV states that "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each [in those sources.]" Wholesale removal of anything controversial simply violates that requirement. Can you point to anywhere else on Wikipedia where difficulty editing around controversies has been resolved by deleting mention of them? The reason we don't discuss gun control, drug crime, Russian relations, or most of the other issues you mention is because they affect a very much smaller proportion of Americans than the standard of living and economics issues you propose to sweep under the rug. And there is plenty that we do discuss regarding slavery: 23 mentions in 13 sentences across 5 paragraphs. 'Summary' is not spelled with an 'e'. EllenCT (talk) 00:12, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- Less than one out of twenty economics undergrads can correctly state what the Gini (not all caps) coefficient means, let alone the general international readership. Your proposal doesn't say anything about the trends or the vast numbers of GenXers who have had to move back in with their parents. I don't see how you can make a WP:UNDUE argument against text which has been in the article for several years, and for which corresponding detail is in most of the other developed nations' articles. And again, you are trying to remove controversies when the WP:LEAD guideline directs that "prominent controversies" shouldn't just be in the article, they should be in the intro. EllenCT (talk) 19:09, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- "As of 2007, the United States had a GINI coefficient of 45.0, the 41st highest in the world" With a citation to the CIA factbook would suffice. As Golbez has pointed out, all these sections are very Recentism focused while providing WP:UNDUE weight. Additionally, previous consensuses can be changed by new consensuses such as the one forming here, in fact that is the point of consensus in the first place. Winner 42 Talk to me! 19:02, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- By "these days" I mean since the very early 2000s. Per WP:LEAD, the largest controversies shouldn't just be in the article, they should, according to that guideline, be summarized in the introduction. EllenCT (talk) 18:30, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- "comprise the clear plurality of headlines on national issues these days" Wikipedia is not about shoving in whatever is getting headlines these days. WP:RECENTISM. Reflecting headlines is not what this article is for, in any way. --Golbez (talk) 18:28, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- While I sympathize with the goal of reducing article bloat, I think your suggestion goes too far too fast, and your proposed single income sentence is way off base. The most legitimate topline income section would probably be the current opening sentence mentioning mean and median income, not a Gini comparison. In fact there was a push a while back (I got sidetracked and tuned out; not sure if it's still going on) to remove Gini as a Wikipedia standard metric since it's calculated with different methodologies in different sources (it's non standardized) and isn't regularly updated on a global level the way more important stats like GDP are. It was proved by editors that Gini comparisons currently used in different prominent country articles are apples and oranges. More importantly, all that aside, you'd be the one elevating "inequality" to an undue emphasis by making it more important than basic, non POV pushing stats like mean and median income. As for Government finance, I'll point out that the facts there aren't really disputed, and the two primary parties disagreeing over the phrasing there just reached a compromise solution. VictorD7 (talk) 19:21, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- For the sake of neutrality, perhaps this is best, with see also hat notes in the sections to related articles. Perhaps, on income and income inequality, it is best to not include a sentence at all, but instead providing a hat note to those specific articles. A sentence on the average income, and percent in poverty, might be sufficient.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 05:35, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
Specific individual disputes
Since the controversial edits leading to the recent full protection were rolled up into a series of massive reverts spanning several sections, originally by an editor who does not seem to have been working on this article previously, and exemplified most recently by this diff, I thought I would pull them out into eight individual questions that I hope we can work out separately while editing is suspended. Can we try to reach compromises on all eight questions before the full protection expires? EllenCT (talk) 18:24, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
Republican Party description
1. What are the sources supporting that Republicans are "center-right" and what sources say they are "right-wing"? Which is the more prominent description in the peer reviewed WP:SECONDARY sources? I happen to believe that since the Democratic Party leaders' preferences are well documented as being to the right of the demographic center's preferences[12][13][14][15] that calling Republicans "center-right" is entirely inaccurate. Are there reliable sources in opposition? I am not okay with simply calling Republicans "conservative" because they've been radically redefining the status quo over the past several decades. Eisenhower was conservative when he took post-WWII marginal tax rates down to pre-WWII levels. Reagan was not when he returned capital gains rates down to Gilded Age historical lows.
- It might be better to separate these into different sections. On 1, I completely reject your premise that the population is to the left of Democrats (if anything it's to the right of where people usually vote, which is why Democrats have to run further from their base rhetorically in general campaigns to be competitive than Republicans do; e.g. - [16] Pew poll showing by 58% to 35% Americans prefer "freedom to pursue life’s goals without state interference" over the state playing "an active role in society to ensure that nobody is in need", the opposite of the Europeans' responses; [17] In Gallup polling self identified conservatives have typically outnumbered self identified liberals roughly 40%-20% over the years, and currently outnumber liberals in all but three states; [18] more Americans have consistently seen Republicans as "too liberal" than the Democrats as "too conservative"; [19] a strong majority--most recently 59%--favor abortion being "under stricter limits than it is now" or not permissible at all; [20] Americans consistently favor spending cuts over tax hikes to tackle the deficit; [21] when asked for actual ideal numbers instead of just "should they pay more or less" most people prefer "the rich" pay a lower tax rate than they actually do; [22] super majorities have always supported prayer in school; I could go on and on), but regardless Republicans have always been identified as "center-right" in serious political science textbooks, even ones that transparently lean left:
- Understanding American Government By Susan Welch, John Gruhl, Susan Rigdon, Sue Thomas (2011, page 185) "The Democrats tend to be a center-left party, and the Republicans tend to be a center-right party." That's without getting into the fact that, as TFD pointed out, the text says "Within American political culture...". In fact the Republicans and Democrats have traditionally been viewed as center-right and center-left in a global context too. The two major US parties have bigger tents and more across the aisle voting on particular issues, and are therefore more moderate than typical parties in parliamentary systems. VictorD7 (talk) 20:58, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- Let us remember there are extremist in both parties: William J. Chambliss (3 May 2011). Crime and Criminal Behavior. SAGE Publications. pp. 229–230. ISBN 978-1-4522-6644-2. Therefore, to label one party to "right-wing" but the other "centre-left" is IMHO WP:UNDUE, The source provided by VictorD7: ( Susan Welch; John Gruhl; Susan Rigdon (18 January 2011). Understanding American Government. Cengage Learning. p. 185. ISBN 0-495-91050-3.
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suggested) (help) ) does a good job at neutrality and presenting both parties. We can go into this book ( Byron York (January 2006). The Vast Left Wing Conspiracy: The Untold Story of the Democrats' Desperate Fight to Reclaim Power. Three Rivers Press. ISBN 978-1-4000-8239-1. ), but IMHO the Cengage book is sufficient.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 01:41, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- Let us remember there are extremist in both parties: William J. Chambliss (3 May 2011). Crime and Criminal Behavior. SAGE Publications. pp. 229–230. ISBN 978-1-4522-6644-2. Therefore, to label one party to "right-wing" but the other "centre-left" is IMHO WP:UNDUE, The source provided by VictorD7: ( Susan Welch; John Gruhl; Susan Rigdon (18 January 2011). Understanding American Government. Cengage Learning. p. 185. ISBN 0-495-91050-3.
- re the party issue, let's look at their respective articles. The GOP article doesn't definitely state its direction, but the Democrat article says "center-left", presumably far better sourced than we can manage here. The GOP does state that their philosophy is conservatism. So why not use those terms? The Republicans are conservative, whereas the Democrats represent the center-left? The work has been done for you. If you disagree with that characterization then I think the best place to discuss this is at the appropriate party discussion page, rather than here; this is a summary article, and the argument over how to define the parties should take place on the party pages, with that filtering down to here. To do it here is both a duplication of efforts as well as a usurpation of encyclopedic responsibility. It'd be like, oh, saying on this article that Puerto Rico is part of the United States but Puerto Rico disagreed. That kind of hypothetical situation. --Golbez (talk) 04:14, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- Hypothetical indeed, the intro sentence at Puerto Rico says it is a U.S. territory. The work of including how Puerto Rico as a part of the U.S. in a geographical sense is done for you, sourced by U.S.G. and scholarship. I think that the hypothetical argument that U.S. territories are external to the US may be sourced to Iran, North Korea and Cuba. In the case of political parties, Communists and some Socialists claim Democrats are not “left” anything, but fascist captives of Wall Street, — however WP discounts WP:fringe, so some hypothetical disputes can be laid to rest. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 07:45, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Golbez:: Please re-read my comment. That section is not about GOP or Democratic parties' economic positions or distinctions. That section needs to be a summary of the main articles on the subject. The problem is that editors here are trying to write that section from scratch, including the impossible task of defining the GOP and Democrat parties in one sentence and without context. - - Cwobeel (talk) 14:02, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- Well that's just it, I'm with you on being against writing it from scratch, we should be pulling purely from the subsidiary articles. I don't think we need *any* description of the parties here, but if we do, it's best to pull the description [and sourcing, if necessary] from the main article rather than go through the entire discovery process here. --Golbez (talk) 15:21, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Golbez:: Please re-read my comment. That section is not about GOP or Democratic parties' economic positions or distinctions. That section needs to be a summary of the main articles on the subject. The problem is that editors here are trying to write that section from scratch, including the impossible task of defining the GOP and Democrat parties in one sentence and without context. - - Cwobeel (talk) 14:02, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- A non-U.S. audience would find the term "center right" explanatory - the Republicans are similar to UK Conservatives, German Christian Democrats and Australian Liberals. But the lesser used term "center left" would be confusing. "Center left", if the term is used at all would refer to Social Democrats as opposed to Left parties and Communists. The Democrats would lie between center left and center right. TFD (talk) 16:49, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- Or we could just stick with the very long standing "center-right"/"center-left" description in the political science textbook I quoted from above, especially since "center-left" would be a lot clearer to many foreign readers than "liberal" would be, given the qualitatively different meaning of "liberal" in a modern American context compared to how it's used throughout much of the world (e.g. Brits calling conservatives like Reagan and Thatcher "neoliberals"; the Australian conservative party being called "Liberals", even US politicians on both sides using "liberal" to mean free market/individual liberty oriented when speaking in an international context, almost the opposite of the political domestic usage, etc.) Calling Democrats "centrists" would be even more absurd. They're no more "centrist" in a global context than the Republicans are, and their base liberal ideology is less so in a domestic context as the material I posted above shows.
- Basically "far right" refers to Nazis/fascists while "far left" refers to communists/socialists. Pretty much every major party in between is "center-(one way or the other)". This isn't complicated. In fact the Democrats have more in common with socialists than the Republicans do with Nazis/fascists. Senator Bernie Sanders, a self described "socialist" independent, caucuses with the Democrats. By contrast I don't know any Nazis/fascists who hold American office, and if they did the Republicans wouldn't caucus with them. US conservatives, heavily libertarian, and Nazis/fascists are qualitatively different, whereas US liberals differ from socialists by matter of degree, with some overlap. But there's no need to get that precise here. In the rough one dimensional spectrum widely used around the world, the Democrats are still center-left overall, and the Republicans are center-right. This is basic stuff. VictorD7 (talk) 18:23, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- In fact, the term "far left" is never used to refer to socialists anywhere other than in the U.S. Socialists form the government or main opposition party in most countries outside the U.S. Even in the U.S., I do not remember the news media referring to Tony Blair as far left. TFD (talk) 18:55, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- The Labour party, led by Blair himself, moved away from socialism toward a position of relatively free market, "New Labour"/"third way" type politics, as did a lot of the world's left leaning parties in the wake of the Cold War's decisive empirical verdict. But above I wasn't referring to those who embrace various aspects of qualified socialism so much as the parties that are hardline enough to call themselves "Socialist", as opposed to the social democrats that typically make up the European center-left. But this tangent is unnecessary. Whether one considers parties like the French Socialists to be center-left or far left on the global spectrum (as opposed to the French one), certainly "center-left" is broad enough to include US Democrats, the party trying to pull the US to the left, as the textbook I quoted above states. VictorD7 (talk) 19:20, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- Tony Blair used the terms socialism and social democracy interchangeably. Ironically, Sanders has presented as his model of socialism the Scandinavian social democrats. You are using the "no true Scotsman" argument: I like Blair therefore he is not a socialist. TFD (talk) 03:09, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- No, I suggest you read up on the Third Way movement Blair helped lead (with Clinton) in the 1990s. Blair used these terms with qualification, and tried to redefine what he meant by "socialism", contrasting it with traditional socialism. He also embraced "capitalism" (again, with qualifications), and dropped the clause committed to nationalizing industry from the Labour Party Constitution as part of what he called "New Labour". In office he left most of Thatcher/Major's economic reforms in place. Here's a BBC piece crediting him with completely remaking his party. Even recently he's advised the defeated Labour Party to move more toward the center and become more "pro business". You can't just ignore all this if you want to talk about Blair and modern Labour ideology. Bernie Sanders is to the left of Tony Blair...and he caucuses with the Democrats. VictorD7 (talk) 19:01, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- Tony Blair used the terms socialism and social democracy interchangeably. Ironically, Sanders has presented as his model of socialism the Scandinavian social democrats. You are using the "no true Scotsman" argument: I like Blair therefore he is not a socialist. TFD (talk) 03:09, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- The Labour party, led by Blair himself, moved away from socialism toward a position of relatively free market, "New Labour"/"third way" type politics, as did a lot of the world's left leaning parties in the wake of the Cold War's decisive empirical verdict. But above I wasn't referring to those who embrace various aspects of qualified socialism so much as the parties that are hardline enough to call themselves "Socialist", as opposed to the social democrats that typically make up the European center-left. But this tangent is unnecessary. Whether one considers parties like the French Socialists to be center-left or far left on the global spectrum (as opposed to the French one), certainly "center-left" is broad enough to include US Democrats, the party trying to pull the US to the left, as the textbook I quoted above states. VictorD7 (talk) 19:20, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- In fact, the term "far left" is never used to refer to socialists anywhere other than in the U.S. Socialists form the government or main opposition party in most countries outside the U.S. Even in the U.S., I do not remember the news media referring to Tony Blair as far left. TFD (talk) 18:55, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- Basically "far right" refers to Nazis/fascists while "far left" refers to communists/socialists. Pretty much every major party in between is "center-(one way or the other)". This isn't complicated. In fact the Democrats have more in common with socialists than the Republicans do with Nazis/fascists. Senator Bernie Sanders, a self described "socialist" independent, caucuses with the Democrats. By contrast I don't know any Nazis/fascists who hold American office, and if they did the Republicans wouldn't caucus with them. US conservatives, heavily libertarian, and Nazis/fascists are qualitatively different, whereas US liberals differ from socialists by matter of degree, with some overlap. But there's no need to get that precise here. In the rough one dimensional spectrum widely used around the world, the Democrats are still center-left overall, and the Republicans are center-right. This is basic stuff. VictorD7 (talk) 18:23, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
On "how the GOP is decribed, I think that we also need to look at how the Democratic Party is described. Global standards are the ones to look at. As such, I think one could describe the dems as center right. They are to the right of most conservative parties in Europe.Casprings (talk) 23:56, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- I'll note that so far RightCowLeftCoast and I are the only ones in this discussion to actually provide sources pertinent to the question. In any context the Democrats are a left leaning party. Some much smaller European countries being more left wing on average than the US doesn't change that. In addition to the textbook I cited above, here are some other sourced notes from the Democratic Party (United States) article:
- Arnold, N. Scott (2009). Imposing values: an essay on liberalism and regulation. Florence: Oxford University Press. p. 3. ISBN 0-495-50112-3. "Modern liberalism occupies the left-of-center in the traditional political spectrum and is represented by the Democratic Party in the United States."
- Levy, Jonah (2006). The state after statism: new state activities in the age of liberalization. Florence: Harvard University Press. p. 198. ISBN 0-495-50112-3. "In the corporate governance area, the center-left repositioned itself to press for reform. The Democratic Party in the United States used the postbubble scandals and the collapse of share prices to attack the Republican Party ... Corporate governance reform fit surprisingly well within the contours of the center-left ideology. The Democratic Party and the SPD have both been committed to the development of the regulatory state as a counterweight to managerial authority, corporate power, and market failure."
- Here's Michael Barone, coauthor of The Almanac of American Politics and one of America's most prominent political scientists over the past several decades, referring to the Democrats as "center-left" and Republicans as "center-right", roughly comparable to the British Conservatives and modern Labour Party: "British politics has a familiar look to Americans, with a center-right Conservative party and a center-left Labour party resembling America’s Republicans and Democrats.
- The Democratic party is staunchly Keynesian, with widespread socialist elements in its base, and generally favors higher taxes, more government regulation, more social welfare spending, and liberal social policies. In rhetoric it favors "equality" themes over "freedom" ones. All of these elements entrench it firmly within the global left as described by Wikipedia's own articles (e.g. Left-wing politics). This is really clear cut. VictorD7 (talk) 18:23, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
- If dropping the descriptor for both major parties is necessary to relieve this from becoming a contentious point of a possible edit war, I am OK with that. But if not, I agree with the statement by VictorD7 above.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 05:43, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- Well, of the two sources Victor has provided above, neither are actually describing the Democratic party but liberalism.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:49, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- False, not that it would matter since the Democrats are the "liberal" party. And I've provided four sources, not two, all of which explicitly speak about the "Democrats" or "the Democratic Party" in the context of being on the "center-left". I suggest you reread my posts. VictorD7 (talk) 19:01, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- Right now the line in the article reads: "Within American political culture, the Republican Party is considered conservative and the Democratic Party is considered liberal.[269]". We should try to have more book sources of course but why are we trying to define the parties. Even trying to say one party is conservative and the other liberal is time sensitive and does not reflect all of history. At one time Republicans were the liberals and Democrats the conservatives. I have a Time magazine from the period describing the parties that way as well as other sources. We need to be far more neutral here and I think brevity may be the answer.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:58, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- "Brevity" shouldn't mean we simply name the two major parties without any description whatsoever. In country articles the major parties typically have some ideological description. It's useful to retain the "conservative"/"liberal" labels since those terms are so ubiquitous "within American culture", and to restore the brief "center-right"/"center-left" labels to clarify for foreign readers who don't already understand those issues. For the record the notion that the two parties "swapped" ideologies is an erroneous myth, though it's not worth getting into that tangent here (the Democrats certainly changed ideologies when modern liberalism arose from the socialist and progressive movements of the late 19th Century, but that's not a swap). It's true that "conservative" and "liberal" mean entirely different things in different historical/national contexts (though, labels aside, a speech from Coolidge reads like it could have been delivered at a Tea Party rally), which is all the more reason why we should just restore the very few words needed to clarify what they currently mean in US political culture. VictorD7 (talk) 19:11, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- Well, of the two sources Victor has provided above, neither are actually describing the Democratic party but liberalism.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:49, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- VictorD7, far from being "staunchly Keynesian", the Democrats rejected Keynsianism when Jimmy Carter became president and appointed Paul Volker chairman of the Fed. He remained chairman under Ronald Reagan. Nixon OTOH had said, "We are all Keynesians now." The "Socialists" in the U.K. had already accepted monetarism under the government of Labour prime minister Jim Callaghan. Your basic misunderstanding of these issues probably explains your conclusions that the Democrats are socialist (and the self-described Socialists in the U.K. are not). TFD (talk) 07:16, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- No, TFD, Carter only reluctantly nominated Volcker near the end of his presidency under heavy pressure from Wall Street, Republicans, and others due to the soaring double digit inflation wrecking the country, and only after he had earlier appointed the disastrous George Miller, who was one in a long line of Keynesian Fed chiefs (Carter then made the failed Miller Secretary of the Treasury!). Even then Carter actively undermined Volcker's attempts to reign in inflation with threats to strip his post of power, causing Volcker to temper his actions until Reagan came into office and (with Milton Friedman himself as an adviser) gave his agenda unqualified support. Nixon was one of the most liberal Republican presidents ever, instituting wage and price controls among other things, though he never actually said "We are all Keynesians now" (that misattribution is a terrible bastardization of something Friedman actually said). I'm not sure what your point is there. Democrats have been staunchly Keynesian before and since, while Republicans have favored alternatives like supply side economics. I almost mentioned widespread support for monetarism among European central bankers myself earlier to illustrate that Europe is to the right of America on certain issues (this is also true on tort law, immigration, current abortion law, and the public childhood education systems). I never said "Democrats are socialist", only that there's overlap in their base among liberals and socialists. I was just providing yet another piece of evidence that the Democrats lean left rather than right. You have no idea what you're talking about on any of these issues (including our Blair discussion above), and your failure to read for comprehension or grasp any nuanced point is rendering this discussion unproductive. Fortunately you don't have to understand politics or history, TFD. Just acknowledge the several sources I've provided here explicitly saying the Democrats are "center-left". VictorD7 (talk) 19:01, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- If dropping the descriptor for both major parties is necessary to relieve this from becoming a contentious point of a possible edit war, I am OK with that. But if not, I agree with the statement by VictorD7 above.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 05:43, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
Here is a pretty short rundown on a U.S. Political parties versus UK political parties. http://www.thewire.com/politics/2013/08/how-conservative-would-uk-conservatives-be-us/67930/ . Both dems and the GOP should be placed in the proper global context for political parties. Will provide more sources as I get the time, but I think we will find that the Dems are similar in position to most conservative parties in Europe and the GOP is further to the right.Casprings (talk)
- British Conservatives: Not Very Conservative By U.S. Standards
- I think trying to define the two political parties is POV. I understand that Victor has several sources to support the claims. That isn't difficult:
- [23]
- [24]
- [25]
- [26]
- Basically, being conservative or liberal within a party is not what defines the party and is looking at them through a political filter. I strongly support dropping any description of either party in this manner, using Wikipedia's voice of authority. Trying to define the Republican party as left, center left, center, center right or right, is a perception and opinion and should be only be written as a quote from a reputable political science expert, most notable in the field and highly cited.--Mark Miller (talk) 22:12, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- Mark and Casprings, you posted a blog by some guy named "Bump" that can charitably be described as moronic, especially since it it ignored the fact that Democratic operatives acting as free lance hired guns served on both sides of the recent British election (and more tellingly, because it was at Obama's direction, on the side of the leftists in the recent Israeli election, while a Republican operative helped Netanyahu), with David Axelrod himself helping Labour and Messina catching heat from American liberals for helping the Conservatives, and a short magazine piece that didn't really have a point except that current UK policy is more left wing on healthcare than the US (yes; so?). The books you linked to appear to have nothing to do with this discussion, which may be why you didn't quote anything from them.
- You say we should cite expert opinion. Well I quoted from several such sources, including a political science textbook, scholarly works, and a column by the smartest and most respected political scientist in the country. It's not controversial to describe the Democrats as "center-left" or the Republicans as "center-right". That's widespread and accurate on the global spectrum. You can't honestly believe that there's no way to describe the parties' ideology in a fashion as neutral and well sourced as the rest of the article is. The United Kingdom, France, and most other country articles I've seen describe their major parties' ideologies. All we need to do here is restore the long standing, brief, non controversial labels. It's easy and harmless. VictorD7 (talk) 03:17, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- First, I posted a Time Article. Second, one has to understand it is a moving target and plenty of peer reviewed articles show that the Republican Party has moved to the right.
Both peer reviewed and show the latest in how the field views the Ideological position of the republican party. What you posted earlier were general despriptions from work that did not directly deal with the issue of the political positions of the parties. Casprings (talk) 12:56, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- You posted a terrible blog piece from "the wire" that I easily debunked (it would show good faith for you to acknowledge that, btw) and a short Time article that didn't address the question at hand. Your two new articles don't address it either. Even if one accepts their premise that Republicans have moved to the right, what's your point? They can move to the right and still be center-right. Are you trying to argue that Republicans are no longer center-right in a global context? Your papers' abstracts didn't make that claim or even mention the term "center-right". Are you trying to imply that Republicans are now Nazis/fascists? Because no, libertarians wanting tax/spending cuts are quite different from Nazis/fascists. Both American parties are near the global spectrum center. It helps to think through what your point is before posting, Casprings. Also, for the record since many Wikipedia editors don't understand how scholarship works, having an article "peer reviewed" isn't an infallible process even in the hard sciences, and being "peer reviewed" means almost nothing on humanities topics (apart from it generally being good for writers to get a little feedback). Here's a recent example where a study designed to promote gay marriage was retracted for falsifying data after it was published in the highly touted peer reviewed journal Science, and the falsifications may not have been noticed if it hadn't attracted so much attention by being eagerly trumpeted throughout the media. In your case you posted articles mostly written by students who come across as extremely biased leftist activists and their work doesn't directly address this discussion anyway. By contrast I quoted from a political science textbook (which undergoes much more review than typical journal articles do) and established, prominent experts all stating that Democrats are "center-left" and Republicans are "center-right". Can you find a single real source even disputing that by directly saying these people are wrong, and that the Republicans aren't "center-right" on the global spectrum? VictorD7 (talk) 20:41, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- I'd suggest to WP:DROPTHESTICK and leave the descriptions of the parties to their respective articles. Here we can just mention the two main parties by name and leave it at that. - Cwobeel (talk) 20:49, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- Except the debate hasn't come to an end, since only one side has posted pertinent sources. Unless you're acknowledging that's the only side with pertinent sources to post. Why should the United States article contain absolutely no description of the political parties when the UK, France, Spain and most other country articles I've seen do, and when reliable sources have been produced attaching non-controversial labels to the US parties? VictorD7 (talk) 21:11, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- Except...no, but maybe "accept" as in...consensus. Look, this is contentious and always will be. I think Cwobeel is correct and we should not try to define the parties in this article. I think there is a rough consensus for that.--Mark Miller (talk) 01:34, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- There certainly isn't a consensus for that, with at least five editors disagreeing with you (counting the ones who reverted the attempt to alter or remove the long standing labels). Besides, consensus isn't dictated by people simply driving by and voting. It's based on argument weight, and you haven't presented a rationale for removing the material, much less a sound, compelling one. I assume the intent wasn't to spam a bunch of links that don't address the question here in hopes of ending the debate in manufactured dissonance. How about actually responding to the points made, acknowledging source evidence posted, and explaining why you don't think the labels belong (apart from vague, unsupported assertions that "this is contentious"), backing your argument up with evidence? VictorD7 (talk) 02:19, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- In a consensus discussion, the only thing that counts are the arguments and consensus of those involved. A closer doesn't count edit warring which got us to the discussion to begin with. If you are finished accusing me of drive by voting I might remind you I am a major contributor to this article and helped raise it to GA. If you are having problems with consensus and wish to filibuster, this thread may need admin closing.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:30, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- Spare me the threats. I wasn't even referring to you with that comment, but I will note that you dodged my request to provide an actual argument. Contrary to your false "filibuster" accusation, I'm practically begging you to speak (substantively). There clearly is no consensus yet and I don't think the discussion has reached an end. Even if it does peter out I and others would have the option of initiating an RFC over it to bring in the broader community. BTW, I spent far more hours elevating this article back to good status over the past couple of years than you did, not that such posturing has anything at all to do with this particular discussion. VictorD7 (talk) 02:42, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- That wasn't a threat. That's what I recommend for this section; administrative closing. You are being highly aggressive and an bit disruptive however, if there are other arguments then the discussion will continue, but at this point you do seem to be the lone hold out with the least persuasive argument. At this point, the rough consensus is not for defining the parties. I don't care if you the major contributor. We have identified those parties that have major interested editors with time and input in both the article and discussion. it isn't a contest, but a defense against your continued personal attacks.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:21, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- You're threatening to run to admin and shut down a conversation that only really began a few days ago. Ridiculous. And aggressive on your part. You also failed again to actually present an argument, much less a "persuasive" one. Maybe in your next response....VictorD7 (talk) 03:38, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- I think you can read what I wrote, where I made it clear if there were others that had arguments the discussion should continue but the article was recently locked and this thread created to gain consensus not soap box or attempt to steamroll content for whatever reason. Right now, one editor has told you to drop the stick and another simply mentioning there is a rough consensus. Since you made it clear you don't believe there is a consensus, no other consideration will probably be trusted by you. An admin closing isn't to shut down the discussion...it is to determine the consensus when the discussion is closed. I believe this discussion may qualify for admin closing as a highly contentious subject on a highly visible article that had just returned from full lock. A request now, is not for a request to close the discussion.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:40, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- You still didn't post a rationale for your position. Let me know if you come up with one that's not "....just because." If I think this material was steamrolled out without an intellectually honest hearing I'll initiate an RFC, though we're not quite there yet since this conversation is just starting. VictorD7 (talk) 17:49, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- I posted my reasoning for my concern and opinion. This can be an RFC if you choose once this discussion ends. But if you act the same there as you are here, I doubt the outcome will change.--Mark Miller (talk) 17:59, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- But you didn't post an argument, just more personal attacks. It's unclear what the results here even are (some editors weren't firm one way or the other while others gave answers that partially support both sides and are difficult to categorize), but if there is an RFC and you fail to post a rationale there the closer should disregard your commentary. VictorD7 (talk) 19:39, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- For those accusing VictorD7 of tedious editing, may I humbly remind others of WP:BOOMERANG & WP:KETTLE. That being said, if we remove spectrum descriptors as suggested, would that improve the stability of this section on the article page?
- That being said, if we are to keep descriptors, just as different reliable sources describe the Republican Party in different ways, surely the Democrat Party has been described in different ways as well: Lane Kenworthy (3 December 2013). Social Democratic America. Oxford University Press. p. 158. ISBN 978-0-19-932253-4. (describing the party as centrist), David Mosler; Robert Catley (1 January 1998). America and Americans in Australia. Greenwood Publishing Group. p. 83. ISBN 978-0-275-96252-4. (describing the party as centre-left), Sidney Verba (1987). Elites and the Idea of Equality: A Comparison of Japan, Sweden, and the United States. Harvard University Press. p. 73. ISBN 978-0-674-24685-0. (describing the party as "On the left"). Therefore, perhaps, it is best to drop the descriptor if it will help reduce edit warring?--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 22:12, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- But you didn't post an argument, just more personal attacks. It's unclear what the results here even are (some editors weren't firm one way or the other while others gave answers that partially support both sides and are difficult to categorize), but if there is an RFC and you fail to post a rationale there the closer should disregard your commentary. VictorD7 (talk) 19:39, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- I posted my reasoning for my concern and opinion. This can be an RFC if you choose once this discussion ends. But if you act the same there as you are here, I doubt the outcome will change.--Mark Miller (talk) 17:59, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- You still didn't post a rationale for your position. Let me know if you come up with one that's not "....just because." If I think this material was steamrolled out without an intellectually honest hearing I'll initiate an RFC, though we're not quite there yet since this conversation is just starting. VictorD7 (talk) 17:49, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- I think you can read what I wrote, where I made it clear if there were others that had arguments the discussion should continue but the article was recently locked and this thread created to gain consensus not soap box or attempt to steamroll content for whatever reason. Right now, one editor has told you to drop the stick and another simply mentioning there is a rough consensus. Since you made it clear you don't believe there is a consensus, no other consideration will probably be trusted by you. An admin closing isn't to shut down the discussion...it is to determine the consensus when the discussion is closed. I believe this discussion may qualify for admin closing as a highly contentious subject on a highly visible article that had just returned from full lock. A request now, is not for a request to close the discussion.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:40, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- You're threatening to run to admin and shut down a conversation that only really began a few days ago. Ridiculous. And aggressive on your part. You also failed again to actually present an argument, much less a "persuasive" one. Maybe in your next response....VictorD7 (talk) 03:38, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- That wasn't a threat. That's what I recommend for this section; administrative closing. You are being highly aggressive and an bit disruptive however, if there are other arguments then the discussion will continue, but at this point you do seem to be the lone hold out with the least persuasive argument. At this point, the rough consensus is not for defining the parties. I don't care if you the major contributor. We have identified those parties that have major interested editors with time and input in both the article and discussion. it isn't a contest, but a defense against your continued personal attacks.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:21, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- Spare me the threats. I wasn't even referring to you with that comment, but I will note that you dodged my request to provide an actual argument. Contrary to your false "filibuster" accusation, I'm practically begging you to speak (substantively). There clearly is no consensus yet and I don't think the discussion has reached an end. Even if it does peter out I and others would have the option of initiating an RFC over it to bring in the broader community. BTW, I spent far more hours elevating this article back to good status over the past couple of years than you did, not that such posturing has anything at all to do with this particular discussion. VictorD7 (talk) 02:42, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- In a consensus discussion, the only thing that counts are the arguments and consensus of those involved. A closer doesn't count edit warring which got us to the discussion to begin with. If you are finished accusing me of drive by voting I might remind you I am a major contributor to this article and helped raise it to GA. If you are having problems with consensus and wish to filibuster, this thread may need admin closing.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:30, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- There certainly isn't a consensus for that, with at least five editors disagreeing with you (counting the ones who reverted the attempt to alter or remove the long standing labels). Besides, consensus isn't dictated by people simply driving by and voting. It's based on argument weight, and you haven't presented a rationale for removing the material, much less a sound, compelling one. I assume the intent wasn't to spam a bunch of links that don't address the question here in hopes of ending the debate in manufactured dissonance. How about actually responding to the points made, acknowledging source evidence posted, and explaining why you don't think the labels belong (apart from vague, unsupported assertions that "this is contentious"), backing your argument up with evidence? VictorD7 (talk) 02:19, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- Except...no, but maybe "accept" as in...consensus. Look, this is contentious and always will be. I think Cwobeel is correct and we should not try to define the parties in this article. I think there is a rough consensus for that.--Mark Miller (talk) 01:34, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- Except the debate hasn't come to an end, since only one side has posted pertinent sources. Unless you're acknowledging that's the only side with pertinent sources to post. Why should the United States article contain absolutely no description of the political parties when the UK, France, Spain and most other country articles I've seen do, and when reliable sources have been produced attaching non-controversial labels to the US parties? VictorD7 (talk) 21:11, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
I do not see any non-U.S. sources categorizing the Democrats as center-left. Comparative Democratic Politics (p. 169) for example categorizes Republicans as "conservative" and Democrats as "center."[27] The footnotes qualify center to include center-right (but not center-left), It does not include social democratic parties, which are described as left. I do not however object to using the terms "liberal" and "conservative" in the article, because it is clear that are used as defined in the U.S. A European conservative can be in U.S. terms socially and economically liberal, yet still a conservative, while a social democrat can be in U.S. terms socially and economically conservative, yet still left-wing. TFD (talk) 22:51, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- Since this discussion seems to have petered out without a clear consensus for anything, I added a caveat to the "liberal"/"conservative" labels to address concerns raised about those terms having different meanings than they do in much of the rest of the world, summarized from the linked articles. I'd also recommend deleting the frivolous "red state"/"blue state" qualifiers. It seems absurd for there to be so much hand wringing over "center-left" and "center-right" when a couple of lines down we have a completely arbitrary, colloquial color dichotomy only popularized since the 2000 election because a few networks used them in election coverage (arguably because the left leaning networks wanted to depict the Republicans with the color most associated with hostility, stopping, or the enemy in gaming; though it's since been defiantly embraced by some-not all-conservative bloggers), with other long established sources reversing the colors or using different ones. Also, for the record, one of RightCowLeftCoast's books above calling Republicans "center-right" and Democrats "center-left" and equating them with the Australian Liberal and Labor parties respectively was co-written by a Brit who immigrated to Australia and became a Labor Party politician/political science academic and an American who has lived in Australia for a long time. I've seen many foreign writers describe Democrats as "left" or "center-left", not that the American perspective is exactly irrelevant to English Wikipedia. VictorD7 (talk) 19:25, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
- The Australian source says it is trying to simplify things for readers. It says Democrats and Labor are social democrats, while Liberals and Republicans are conservatives. While there has been some convergence as modern parties have moved toward the center, it ignores the standard classification of parties according to how they arose and the sources of their on-going support. Liberal parties were established to defend liberal values, conservative parties were formed by traditional elites in reaction, while social democratic parties were formed to establish socialism. The reality is that neither mainstream Democrats or Republicans have moved away from liberalism, while UK Conservatives and Australia's Labor have increasingly but not exclusively become more liberal. But we should not imply that they are exact equivalents. Note too the book does not say "center-right", but "center/right", i.e., a mix of centrist and right-wing, rather than lying between center and right. In reality, the centrists in UK Conservatives and Australian Liberals, such as Cameron and Turnbull, are closer to Clinton and Obama than they are to the Republican party today. TFD (talk) 19:40, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- No, Cameron has much more in common with US Republicans than with US Democrats and Bill Clinton and Tony Blair were allies on both domestic and foreign policy while Blair and Bush were only aligned on foreign policy. The Australian source is also correct to roughly equate (no one claimed or needs to claim precision) Aussie Liberals with Republicans and Labor with Democrats. Your historical description totally ignores the dramatically changing meanings of "conservative" and "liberal" in different national/historical contexts. The truth is that many US "liberals" would call themselves "socialists" if they lived in Europe, where the word is less taboo, and basically advocate for the same things. At least one of the sources I cited below even makes that point. VictorD7 (talk) 19:55, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- What has happened is that the ahistorical U.S. usage has crept into other countries. But the historic usage remains, so conservatives such as Ian Gilmour could accuse Thatcher of being a liberal. Even Blair accused the Conservative leadership of being liberal. I doubt that many Democrats would call themselves socialists. Where the Socialists were the major party, they might vote for them, but would probably be uneasy with much of their ethos and certainly their history. And certainly no one applies current U.S. usage to before the modern period. Otherwise we would call Bismarck and Disraeli liberals, while their Liberal opponents would be called conservatives.
- No, Cameron has much more in common with US Republicans than with US Democrats and Bill Clinton and Tony Blair were allies on both domestic and foreign policy while Blair and Bush were only aligned on foreign policy. The Australian source is also correct to roughly equate (no one claimed or needs to claim precision) Aussie Liberals with Republicans and Labor with Democrats. Your historical description totally ignores the dramatically changing meanings of "conservative" and "liberal" in different national/historical contexts. The truth is that many US "liberals" would call themselves "socialists" if they lived in Europe, where the word is less taboo, and basically advocate for the same things. At least one of the sources I cited below even makes that point. VictorD7 (talk) 19:55, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- But how would you compare the two major U.S. parties to the three major parties in Canada? Certainly the closest match would be Liberals and Conservatives. Even then, 58% of Canadian Conservative voters said they would vote for Obama if they could.[28] But the Liberal party has close ties to the Democrats and the UK Liberal Democrats, while Canada's socialist party has close ties to UK Labour.
- The point is that while it is possible to provide rough equivalents between parties in the U.S. and other two party states, it becomes problematic when compared with multi-party states. But liberalism is wide enough to include both parties. See for example the Liberal International's "Hall of Freedom."[29] Bastiat, Hayek and Mises are honored along with Eleanor Roosevelt, Keynes and Martin Luther King.
- The problem with the various meanings of "conservative" and "liberal" is exactly why I proposed the caveat below. You'd be surprised at how socialistic big chunks of the Democratic party base is, and it's not just a recent development. FDR's administration in particular included some admirers (and in some cases agents, but that's a different topic) of the Soviet Union in very prominent positions, and sought to establish government control over the economy and society in general in a number of big, bold ways. Much of Eugene Debs' Socialist Party platform in the early 20th Century became central to what ultimately became known as the "liberal" agenda, and was largely co-opted by the Democrats and to a lesser extent even the Republicans. As for results like the Canadian poll you cite, that has less to do with ideological affinity than with the fact that most of those people know little about the United States or its parties except what they're presented with through their local media filter, and left leaning outfits like the CBC and similar operations in Europe tend to demonize and caricature Republicans (and US conservatives, Christians, and often America in general) in sometimes comically biased ways (Hollywood does too for that matter). The converse helps explain why a liberal Democrat like Obama got the immediate and totally irrational enthusiastic response he did in Europe after his election, with the Nobel Prize committee even awarding him the Peace Prize....just 'cause.... driving the final nail into the coffin of that once meaningful award's credibility. But I will point out that when it comes to people more knowledgeable on these topics, like politicians themselves, center-right leaders like Harper, Thatcher, Kohl, Cameron, Sarkozy, Netanyahu, Berlusconi, John Howard, etc. tend to get along better with Republican politicians than with Democrats, and vice versa with center-left leaders. VictorD7 (talk) 23:33, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- Seeing the New Deal as socialist is a typical position of the U.S. Right, but has no support in reliable sources. Debs`s successor said, "Roosevelt did not carry out the Socialist platform, unless he carried it out on a stretcher."[30] Certainly there were and are some socialists in the Democratic Party, and had been in the Republican Party too, but played only a minor role. Ironically Roosevelt called his opponents conservatives, trying to link them to the traditional European Right. The reality is that European conservatives and socialists have moved closer to the center where the two U.S. parties have always been. TFD (talk) 23:58, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- I mostly agree with your last sentence (all the more reason to use "center-left" and "center-right"), with the caveat that the US parties have moved at least some back and forth at certain points in history, with their respective bases losing and gaining strength at various times. Thomas was running against FDR for president in that pamphlet you linked to, so that has to be viewed in the context of trying to draw contrasts between himself and his rival. Besides, he basically just criticized Roosevelt for not managing to completely destroy the capitalist system. The truth is Thomas wouldn't have either if he had won. Even western European socialist parties don't eliminate the mostly capitalist system in their countries when they take power, instead typically operating at the margins by raising taxes or increasing spending and regulation. The US system has even more built in moderation than European nations do; lots of checks and balances. That doesn't mean the party bases wouldn't prefer to do more. I didn't say the New Deal was "socialist" but it's accurate to call many of its salient features socialistic, and that has plenty of support from reliable sources (which does include U.S. conservatives), including certain of its own members. That Thomas felt the need to distance FDR from supposedly "true socialism", because both Republicans and Democrats were associating the two, is telling in and of itself. More telling than Thomas's face value campaign rhetoric is the fact that the Socialist Party withered to the point where it stopped bothering to run presidential candidates in the 1950s. This was due to a combination of both recent events strengthening Americans' traditional aversion to socialism and the major parties, particularly the Democrats, successfully co-opting so many of the old Socialist Party's goals that voters who once favored the SP increasingly voted Democrat instead. The Socialist Party's successor groups, led by men like Michael Harrington, started working from within the Democratic Party and endorsing Democratic candidates for president, especially from McGovern's 1972 campaign onward. I'd argue that in the 19th Century the US political spectrum didn't have a "left"/"right" divide in the way those terms are commonly meant today, but it developed one in the 20th Century with the ideological transition of the Democrats. VictorD7 (talk) 01:54, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
- The European Parliament has 7 recognized parties: Left, Socialist, Green, Liberal, Christian Democrat, Conservative and right-wing populist, and the far right is not recognized any more but is seated as non-escrits on the far right. In U.S. terms, the Left, Socialists, Greens, left-wing Liberals, traditional Conservatives, and left-wing Christian Democrats are liberals, while right-wing liberals, right-wing Christian Democrats, free market Conservatives, right-wing populists and the far right are conservatives. You are trying to shoehorn 8 parties into the U.S. two party system.
- And certainly the left-right spectrum existed in 19th century U.S., even though the terms had not been invented. They were federalist/republican, liberal/radical, conservative/liberal, whig/democrat, liberal/republican. While there is disagreement on terminology, there is agreement on which was left or right.
- TFD (talk) 06:02, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
- Actually those terms had been invented, mostly for use in Europe, and no there isn't universal agreement on how to retroactively apply them. When someone does occasionally try to apply them they involving twisting definitions. My argument is that they didn't apply in the way most modern commentators use them today. It's not like there was a pro monarchy party or a socialist/progressive/modern liberal party in the US. All major sides back then adhered staunchly to republicanism, individual liberty, free market economics, and constitutional process. The disagreements were mostly over functional issues like foreign policy, tariffs, and monetary policy (not to be confused with fiscal policy, especially since there was no income tax or welfare state; the disagreement was over whether to have a central bank, and later what metal to base the currency on), with the exception of slavery being the high arching moral issue. I suppose if you had to apply the modern spectrum to that era then one really could say both US parties were on the center-right, but that certainly hasn't been the case from the early 20th Century onward, and "left"/"right" terminology is ubiquitous in America today.
- I mostly agree with your last sentence (all the more reason to use "center-left" and "center-right"), with the caveat that the US parties have moved at least some back and forth at certain points in history, with their respective bases losing and gaining strength at various times. Thomas was running against FDR for president in that pamphlet you linked to, so that has to be viewed in the context of trying to draw contrasts between himself and his rival. Besides, he basically just criticized Roosevelt for not managing to completely destroy the capitalist system. The truth is Thomas wouldn't have either if he had won. Even western European socialist parties don't eliminate the mostly capitalist system in their countries when they take power, instead typically operating at the margins by raising taxes or increasing spending and regulation. The US system has even more built in moderation than European nations do; lots of checks and balances. That doesn't mean the party bases wouldn't prefer to do more. I didn't say the New Deal was "socialist" but it's accurate to call many of its salient features socialistic, and that has plenty of support from reliable sources (which does include U.S. conservatives), including certain of its own members. That Thomas felt the need to distance FDR from supposedly "true socialism", because both Republicans and Democrats were associating the two, is telling in and of itself. More telling than Thomas's face value campaign rhetoric is the fact that the Socialist Party withered to the point where it stopped bothering to run presidential candidates in the 1950s. This was due to a combination of both recent events strengthening Americans' traditional aversion to socialism and the major parties, particularly the Democrats, successfully co-opting so many of the old Socialist Party's goals that voters who once favored the SP increasingly voted Democrat instead. The Socialist Party's successor groups, led by men like Michael Harrington, started working from within the Democratic Party and endorsing Democratic candidates for president, especially from McGovern's 1972 campaign onward. I'd argue that in the 19th Century the US political spectrum didn't have a "left"/"right" divide in the way those terms are commonly meant today, but it developed one in the 20th Century with the ideological transition of the Democrats. VictorD7 (talk) 01:54, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
- Seeing the New Deal as socialist is a typical position of the U.S. Right, but has no support in reliable sources. Debs`s successor said, "Roosevelt did not carry out the Socialist platform, unless he carried it out on a stretcher."[30] Certainly there were and are some socialists in the Democratic Party, and had been in the Republican Party too, but played only a minor role. Ironically Roosevelt called his opponents conservatives, trying to link them to the traditional European Right. The reality is that European conservatives and socialists have moved closer to the center where the two U.S. parties have always been. TFD (talk) 23:58, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- The problem with the various meanings of "conservative" and "liberal" is exactly why I proposed the caveat below. You'd be surprised at how socialistic big chunks of the Democratic party base is, and it's not just a recent development. FDR's administration in particular included some admirers (and in some cases agents, but that's a different topic) of the Soviet Union in very prominent positions, and sought to establish government control over the economy and society in general in a number of big, bold ways. Much of Eugene Debs' Socialist Party platform in the early 20th Century became central to what ultimately became known as the "liberal" agenda, and was largely co-opted by the Democrats and to a lesser extent even the Republicans. As for results like the Canadian poll you cite, that has less to do with ideological affinity than with the fact that most of those people know little about the United States or its parties except what they're presented with through their local media filter, and left leaning outfits like the CBC and similar operations in Europe tend to demonize and caricature Republicans (and US conservatives, Christians, and often America in general) in sometimes comically biased ways (Hollywood does too for that matter). The converse helps explain why a liberal Democrat like Obama got the immediate and totally irrational enthusiastic response he did in Europe after his election, with the Nobel Prize committee even awarding him the Peace Prize....just 'cause.... driving the final nail into the coffin of that once meaningful award's credibility. But I will point out that when it comes to people more knowledgeable on these topics, like politicians themselves, center-right leaders like Harper, Thatcher, Kohl, Cameron, Sarkozy, Netanyahu, Berlusconi, John Howard, etc. tend to get along better with Republican politicians than with Democrats, and vice versa with center-left leaders. VictorD7 (talk) 23:33, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- And I'm not trying to shoehorn anything into the US system, so I'm not sure what your point is with the 7/8 European Parliament parties. I'm simply recognizing, as most expert commentators do, that the US Democrats lean left while the Republicans lean right. That doesn't need to mean that all the same niche ideological flavors currently identified in Europe are present in the exact same proportions and ways in America, though many are present within the much broader tents of the US parties. VictorD7 (talk) 18:29, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
The terms left and right were not used in the 19th century to describe ideology. See Marcel Gauchet, "Right and Left", 1996.[31] Notice for example Marx and Engels never used the terms. And yes historians do see ideological differences in 18th and 19th century America, even if none of them went beyond liberalism and radicalism. As Schlesinger wrote, "When a laissez-faire policy seemed best calculated to achieve the liberal objective of equality of opportunity for all -- as it did in the time of Jefferson -- liberals believed, in the Jeffersonian phrase, that that government is best which governs least. But, when the growing complexity of industrial conditions required increasing government intervention in order to assure more equal opportunities, the liberal tradition, faithful to the goal rather than to the dogma, altered its view of the state."[32] You may believe that Roosevelt transformed the Democrats into a social democratic party, but no one writing in mainstream sources agrees. TFD (talk) 19:13, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
- Your own source talks extensively about the use of "right"/"left" terminology in 19th Century politics, but that's an irrelevant tangent. I didn't say FDR turned the Democrats into a social democratic party. I didn't even call the Democrats a social democratic party, though there's heavy overlap (arguably more than not). The notion that only hard core socialists or self described "social democrats" can be considered "left wing" is wrong anyway and rejected by countless sources. Whatever labels you want to put on it, the Democrats' ideology undeniably shifted in a dramatic way around the turn of the 20th Century (long before FDR; I just cited his administration earlier because he took things to another level) to something that certainly wasn't classically liberal (or liberal in the modern European sense of the word) and that altered the US political dynamic. You quote one source as if it's definitive. Schlesinger was an extremely partisan liberal Democrat trying to tie the current politicians he supported to founding fathers like Jefferson who, in actuality, would have recoiled in horror at the big government liberalism of Schlesinger and his friends. That said, even he in your own link says this just before your quote: "Enough should have been said by now to indicate that liberalism in the American usage has little in common with the word as used in the politics of any European country, save possibly Britain." I also cited four more objective, much higher quality sources below further establishing that the word "liberal" has changed meaning in the US to something different from its common European usage. For example:
- ([33]; page 572; a cross cultural encyclopedic dictionary of complex concepts; Princeton University Press) "In the exemplary case of the United States, where the three political families (conservatism, liberalism, radicalism) are different from those in Europe, and can only really be defined through their relations to each other, liberalism clearly occupies more or less the ground of the political left as it is understood in Europe."
- ([34]; page xi; a topical political science book; Routledge) "In the United States, and to a lesser extent in Britain, the term ‘liberal’ has come to refer only to the revisionist or social democratic wing of the liberal tradition. Moreover, because of the stigma which attaches to the term ‘socialist’ in that country, many Americans pass under the name of ‘liberal’ who would be described as socialists in any other country. In Europe outside Britain the word ‘liberal’ retains its old meaning and refers primarily to what political scientists call ‘classical liberalism’. Consequently the word ‘conservative’ has taken on a portmanteau quality in America and now refers both to people who would be described as conservatives in any language and to others who would in any European country other than Britain be labelled as liberals."
- ([35]; page 22; a political science textbook; Cengage Publishing) "The Difficulty of Defining Liberalism and Conservatism...While political candidates and commentators are quick to label candidates and voters as “liberals” and “conservatives”, the meanings of these words have evolved over time. Moreover, each term may represent a different set of ideas to the person or group that uses it.....Liberalism. The word liberal has an odd history. It comes from the same root as liberty, and originally it simply meant “free”. In that broad sense, the United States as a whole is a liberal country, and all popular American ideologies are variants of liberalism. In a more restricted definition, a liberal was a person who believed in limited government and who opposed religion in politics. A hundred years ago, liberalism referred to a philosophy that in some ways resembled modern-day libertarianism. For that reason, many libertarians today refer to themselves as classical liberals....How did the meaning of the word liberal change? In the 1800s, the Democratic party was seen as the more liberal of the two parties. The Democrats of that time stood for limited government and opposition to moralism in politics. Democrats opposed Republican projects such as building roads, freeing the slaves, and prohibiting the sale of alcoholic beverages. Beginning with Democratic president Woodrow Wilson (served 1913-1921), however, the party’s economic policies began to change……By the end of Roosevelt’s presidency in 1945, the Democratic Party had established itself as standing for positive government action to help the economy. Although Roosevelt stood for new policies, he kept the old language—as Democrats had long done, he called himself a liberal....Outside of the United States and Canada, the meaning of the world liberal never changed. For this reason, you might hear a left-of-center European denounce U.S. president Ronald Reagan…or British prime minister Margaret Thatcher…for their “liberalism,” meaning that these two leaders were enthusiastic advocates of laissez-faire capitalism and limited government."
- ([36]: page 252; book by notable political scientist/sociologist Seymour Martin Lipset; W. W. Norton & Company);"The meaning of “conservatism,” of course, is quite different in the two societies. In America, it involves support of laissez-faire, anti-statist doctrines, which correspond to bourgeois-linked classical liberalism. In Jefferson’s words, “that government governs best which governs least.”"
- Per its root, classical liberalism was always more about freedom than equality. Despite his reaching attempt to tie the modern US usage to the classic term, even your Schlesinger quote acknowledges a significant shift away from limited government and laissez-faire economics, more or less underscoring the other sources in the essentials. All that said, I'm wondering what your point is. You just seemed to have helped further establish the need for a caveat along the lines of what I proposed below. Since the "conservative"/"liberal" labels are already in the article, do you support adding such a caveat? VictorD7 (talk) 00:58, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
Proposed caveat to "conservative" and "liberal" labels
<UPDATE>: Clarification - the proposal here is only to add the bolded portion of the quote below. The regular italics portion is already in the article. This subsection isn't about whether we should add or retain the "conservative" and "liberal" labels, which are already in the article, but whether to leave them as is or add the caveat. If people want to comment on both issues that's fine, but please comment specifically on the caveat assuming the labels are retained.
As linked above, to address valid concerns over the labels "conservative" and "liberals" meaning often completely different things in America versus Europe (and some other parts of the world), I put both terms in quotes and added a caveat summarized from the linked articles (which both make the same point): Within American political culture, the Republican Party is considered "conservative" and the Democratic Party is considered "liberal", though those terms have come to have different meanings than they do in much of the rest of the world.
Mark Miller reverted saying we should use sourcing for such a segment, so I offer these as potential sources:
[37] (page 22; political science textbook); American Government and Politics Today, 2015-2016 edition, Lynne Ford, Barbara Bardes, Steffen Schmidt, Mack Shelley, Cengage Publishing
[38] (page 252; book by notable political scientist/sociologist); American Exceptionalism: A Double-edged Sword, 1997, Seymour Martin Lipset, W. W. Norton & Company
[39] (page 572; a cross cultural encyclopedic dictionary of complex concepts); Dictionary of Untranslatables: A Philosophical Lexicon, 2014, Barbara Cassin, Emily Apter, Jacques Lezra, Michael Wood, Princeton University Press
[40] (page xi; topical political science book); A Dictionary of Conservative and Libertarian Thought, 2012 edition, Nigel Ashford, Stephen Davies, Routledge
Is this acceptable? It's not like this is controversial. That's why Europeans call Reagan and Thatcher "neoliberals", and why the conservative Australian party is called the "Liberal Party". VictorD7 (talk) 00:59, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose Calling the Democratic party liberal is silly.Casprings (talk) 12:07, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
- The article already does that. This subsection is about adding the caveat assuming the conservative/liberal labels remain. It sounds like maybe you should support the caveat if you feel just calling them "liberal" is silly. VictorD7 (talk) 20:53, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
- Liberal/Conservative doesn't seem likely to solve it. We need easily understood labels that don't need to be further explained. I was fine with center-right/left labels, which, though clumsy, gave an, I thought, easily understandable thumbnail sketch of where the parties stood, without labeling either as extreme (calling the Republicans "right-wing", as was done, when the party now commands absolute majorities in both houses of Congress is ludicrous; as is using extreme labels for either party). One question on sources: I reverted "right-wing" because it replaced part of a sourced statement; were "center-right/left" sourced by the reference to that description, and is that source included above? Dhtwiki (talk) 02:00, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- Agreed completely, though use of "conservative" and "liberal" is so ubiquitous within American culture that I don't mind keeping them too. If they do remain as the only ideological labels I think we need some sort of caveat like that proposed above lest readers having much different ideas of "liberal" and "conservative" in mind than modern Americans do be misled. Do you agree? I added an update to the op clarifying that this proposal only deals with the bolded portion quoted above, and not whether to keep or remove the "conservative"/"liberal" labels, which are still currently in the article. As for your question, I didn't add the source in the article, I don't recall having read it, and I'm not sure if the pertinent page is available online. No, I supplied four new sources above, all of which have the pertinent pages freely accessible online. VictorD7 (talk) 19:15, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- Liberal/Conservative doesn't seem likely to solve it. We need easily understood labels that don't need to be further explained. I was fine with center-right/left labels, which, though clumsy, gave an, I thought, easily understandable thumbnail sketch of where the parties stood, without labeling either as extreme (calling the Republicans "right-wing", as was done, when the party now commands absolute majorities in both houses of Congress is ludicrous; as is using extreme labels for either party). One question on sources: I reverted "right-wing" because it replaced part of a sourced statement; were "center-right/left" sourced by the reference to that description, and is that source included above? Dhtwiki (talk) 02:00, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- The article already does that. This subsection is about adding the caveat assuming the conservative/liberal labels remain. It sounds like maybe you should support the caveat if you feel just calling them "liberal" is silly. VictorD7 (talk) 20:53, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose the Republicans have been right-wing on both social and economic issues while the Democrats have been center-right on economic issues and left-wing on social issues. How about just putting it that way? EllenCT (talk) 23:37, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Progressiveness of taxes and fiscal policy
2. I agree with VictorD7's compromise proposal on taxes being somewhat/generally/most/least progressive above. We shouldn't be getting hung up on adjectives for numerical facts which can be described with quantitative rankings.
- Well the word is what is important. As Ellen points out, the US tax system is somewhat progressive with many regressive aspects (sales tax, for example).Casprings (talk) 13:12, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- As currently worded it shows plenty of POV on something that is properly factually wrong and is, at the very least, highly disputed.Casprings (talk) 13:14, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- No, the current section accurately describes the taxation issue, including the regressive aspects (like sales/consumption taxes) and overall progressivity, and is well sourced by outfits from across the political spectrum. The facts aren't in dispute. See also [41]. VictorD7 (talk) 19:57, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- The suggestion that there is no room for improvement is contrary to established facts. All of my recently proposed improvements would improve the article. We need not miss the opportunity to make further improvements because we were too busy trying to figure out how to sweep things under the rug. Including the Wall Street Journal's recent graphic or an adaption of it would be beneficial. EllenCT (talk) 15:06, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
Private prisons
3. Is the [42] additional reference for "The privatization of prisons and prison services which began in the 1980s" does not seem to be the subject of an actual controversy here on the talk page. Is it actually controversial? I don't think "has been a subject of debate" is appropriate, but that hasn't been part of the edit warring. Can we say something quantitative about the prison population instead?
- We can say that privatization of prisons is controversial (as per Incarceration in the United States#Privatization)
- Do we need to go into the prisoner population size? Comparatively U.S. prisons are more humane than other nations (while not as nice as say Nordic prisons). Perhaps a link to Incarceration in the United States article is sufficient.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 03:14, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- Not occurring to most human rights groups. For example:https://www.hrw.org/united-states/us-program/prison-and-detention-conditions Casprings (talk) 13:17, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- The page you linked to doesn't appear to contain international comparisons so it doesn't dispute what RightCowlLeftCoast said. That's leaving aside the fact that HRW is a mostly George Soros funded, left wing propaganda outfit with an anti-American bent.
- Not occurring to most human rights groups. For example:https://www.hrw.org/united-states/us-program/prison-and-detention-conditions Casprings (talk) 13:17, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- Back to the actual topic here, Ellen is right to observe that the source in question hasn't been the subject of controversy here. It's simply there to illustrate one side of the debate and no legitimate rationale was presented by the editor attempting to single it out for removal. It should remain if the rest of the segment does. VictorD7 (talk) 20:58, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- Is it notable enough for mention here is there is little to no context? The subject itself is controversial, but is it notable enough for mention in this article?--Mark Miller (talk) 01:38, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- Back to the actual topic here, Ellen is right to observe that the source in question hasn't been the subject of controversy here. It's simply there to illustrate one side of the debate and no legitimate rationale was presented by the editor attempting to single it out for removal. It should remain if the rest of the segment does. VictorD7 (talk) 20:58, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
- I think the key thing you have to mention is that the U.S. Has the largest per capital population and actual number of prisoners in the World. I think that is the unique and important fact here.Casprings (talk) 02:39, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- A function of the US being the third most populous country in the world, and one with the combination of extremely effective law enforcement and the somewhat higher crime rate that often comes with having a freer society (as opposed to Saudi Arabia, totalitarian China, or even states like Singapore that are mostly libertarian but deter crime by punishing it very harshly), particularly one with massive immigration (legal and illegal) from third world sources. Of course that is mentioned in the article. Does that mean you'd support deleting the "privatization" sentence? VictorD7 (talk) 02:51, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- What is the point of the private prison statement in the section and what balance does it provide. I am unclear of that.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:26, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- I support placing the most important facts in the article with regard to []WP:Weight]]. The fact I mentioned seems more important than prisoners becoming private. The actual facts on the subject or very significant when looking at an article on the United States.Casprings (talk) 12:50, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- A function of the US being the third most populous country in the world, and one with the combination of extremely effective law enforcement and the somewhat higher crime rate that often comes with having a freer society (as opposed to Saudi Arabia, totalitarian China, or even states like Singapore that are mostly libertarian but deter crime by punishing it very harshly), particularly one with massive immigration (legal and illegal) from third world sources. Of course that is mentioned in the article. Does that mean you'd support deleting the "privatization" sentence? VictorD7 (talk) 02:51, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23prison.12253738.html?mwrsm=Email
- So are we all agreed that the prison privatization sentence should be deleted? VictorD7 (talk) 03:41, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- Is someone adding input without signing? I can't tell from the last comment above yours what that direction that goes to be honest.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:48, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- Sorry. If the article was made much shorter, I would support getting ride of it. With the articles current size, this is a relevant enough fact to include. The privatization of prisons are unique and have produced a number of human rights violations.http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=5466166 . Casprings (talk) 12:50, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- I concur with Casprings above. I would also like to note that while the sources I have added on this subject are peer-reviewed and academic, which are the most qualified for Wikipedia, at least two of the citations added in a pathetic attempt to defend prison privatization are blatant propaganda from right-wing sources that are NOT peer-reviewed or academic (I'm referring to the Reason Foundation, "an American libertarian research organization" and something called "The Commonwealth Foundation," a corporate-funded, libertarian "think tank" pushing "free market" policies - one of many spawned by the Powell Memorandum). These should be removed as they do not qualify as WP:RS.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 13:10, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- My only concern with this content, is that it have proper context and not appear to just be dropped in to add controversial content. Also, if added there needs to be some expansion on the information to give some reasoning to why it is an issue important enough to be mentioned in this article. Other than that, I also fully agree that the partisan sources are being used innappropriatly and are certainly replaceable with academic sources from experts in the fields.--Mark Miller (talk) 18:04, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- In terms of context, prison privatization is largely (but not solely) unique to the United States, especially to the extent that we've privatized not only prisons but also outsourced prison functions such as healthcare and food services to private corporations such as Corizon and Aramark respectively, with sometimes fatal results. In addition, the prison industry, according to scholars such as Marie Gottschalk, professor of political science at the University of Pennsylvania, is playing a role in sustaining America's obscenely high incarceration rates. But adding such content could be problematic as some would argue it would be giving too much weight to the issue.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 18:27, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- My only concern with this content, is that it have proper context and not appear to just be dropped in to add controversial content. Also, if added there needs to be some expansion on the information to give some reasoning to why it is an issue important enough to be mentioned in this article. Other than that, I also fully agree that the partisan sources are being used innappropriatly and are certainly replaceable with academic sources from experts in the fields.--Mark Miller (talk) 18:04, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- Actually, Griffin, you added three books by liberal activists with colorful polemical titles like "Punishment for sale: Private Prisons, Big Business, and the Incarceration Binge", "The Illusion of Free Markets: Punishment and the Myth of Natural Order", and "Caught: the Prison State and the Lockdown of American Politics". Your one peer reviewed journal article, also by a liberal activist, has the sensationalistic title "Neoliberalism's Penal and Debtor States". Fortunately we aren't restricted to only using peer reviewed sources (the vast majority of sources in the article, especially the ones added by you, aren't), and we certainly aren't prohibited from using biased sources (every source you've added is extremely biased), especially if we're merely representing the different points of view in a debate.
- I concur with Casprings above. I would also like to note that while the sources I have added on this subject are peer-reviewed and academic, which are the most qualified for Wikipedia, at least two of the citations added in a pathetic attempt to defend prison privatization are blatant propaganda from right-wing sources that are NOT peer-reviewed or academic (I'm referring to the Reason Foundation, "an American libertarian research organization" and something called "The Commonwealth Foundation," a corporate-funded, libertarian "think tank" pushing "free market" policies - one of many spawned by the Powell Memorandum). These should be removed as they do not qualify as WP:RS.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 13:10, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- Sorry. If the article was made much shorter, I would support getting ride of it. With the articles current size, this is a relevant enough fact to include. The privatization of prisons are unique and have produced a number of human rights violations.http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=5466166 . Casprings (talk) 12:50, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- Is someone adding input without signing? I can't tell from the last comment above yours what that direction that goes to be honest.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:48, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- So are we all agreed that the prison privatization sentence should be deleted? VictorD7 (talk) 03:41, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- "Criticism", no matter how scholarly, is still opinion, as is praise. You can't say in Wikipedia's voice that prison privatization has come under "criticism" while excluding any mention of those who praise or support it when it's the status quo, most people support it, and many prominent politicians and noteworthy commentators support it. What I did was take your extreme WP:NPOV violating sentence and make it one that neutrally acknowledges the debate with sources representing both points of view. I added two peer reviewed articles with less polemical, more scholarly sounding titles than yours: "Cost Effectiveness Comparisons of Private Versus Public Prisons in Louisiana: A Comprehensive Analysis of Allen, Avoyelles, and Winn Correctional Centers" and "A Tale of Two Prisons: Cost, Quality, and Accountability in Private Prisons", and yes, I added two fact heavy think tank pieces to fully flesh out the other POV. I used these in part because they brought together a lot of different arguments and sub topics and because I only wanted to use four sources to balance your four sources, rather than piling on with many more. Those think tank pieces are certainly RS for their own opinions, which is what they're being used for here, as are your sources. VictorD7 (talk) 19:20, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- "You can't say in Wikipedia's voice that prison privatization has come under "criticism" while excluding any mention of those who praise or support it when it's the status quo, most people support it, and many prominent politicians and noteworthy commentators support it." This sort of thing almost always has a due amount of balance in academic circles and opinion but we can't just toss in any support. The balance should come from whatever weight the arguments have in real life. Prison overcrowding may have supporters, but just adding their mention may not be within guidelines if they are not in reliable sources. Generally the balance will be in the sources. If there is no balance, I would wonder a bit about that sources or the subject. In this case, what exactly do "supporters" of private prisons have to add to the over all subject from sources. That might be interesting to look at, but it is a little like arguing for the sake of arguing if the is no real need for the balance. Not that there isn't in this case...but we do need to consider it.--Mark Miller (talk) 19:45, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- The sources I added have far more balance than the stridently polemical ones Griffin added. Frankly including this sentence at all is niche soapboxing inappropriate for this broad summary article, but if it's to remain it must conform with neutrality policy. VictorD7 (talk) 19:49, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- I believe the point being made is, that the subject is notable enough for mention in this summary article of the overall importance or notability of prison over-population and the government allowing prisons to be run by private companies in some instances. This seems reasonable but right now I wouldn't call it soapboxing. However, this illustrates the problems of using weak sources and then trying to balance the sources with other sources. That isn't balance that is just more soapboxing. I think these issues are far deeper than just the topics. The sources being used appear to be veiled partisan bickering within the article. Is there a way to get past this? Wouldn't further research for stronger sources and more accurate overview of the issue be better than just debating what is there so far if the sources are being questioned?--Mark Miller (talk) 22:01, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- I reject your premise that the subject is "notable" enough (presumably you meant "noteworthy"; notability in a Wikipedia context only pertains to a subject having its own article) to get its own segment here when countless other arguably more important topics (school choice, the USA's extreme tort abuse compared to other countries, fueled by the powerful trial lawyer lobby, late term abortions, the breakdown of the family and rise of single parent homes, etc.) are ignored. The USA's high incarceration rate is already mentioned in the section in its own segment so I can only surmise that Casprings emphasized that above because he was initially confused (he may have originally indicated opposition to including a private prison segment because he thought I was supporting it, and then when he finally realized what was going on switched sides). I also reject your premise that the sources used are necessarily "weak" for the task at hand. If you're going to cover opinion (which is what "criticism" is) on an emerging (but still little discussed) controversial topic, then these are the type of sources you're going to have. All I'm saying is that if there's a dispute, which is what "criticism" implies, then we cover it in a neutral manner, and without taking sides in Wikipedia's voice. Even if the sources are low quality, it's better to have low quality sources from both sides than only one side. VictorD7 (talk) 22:23, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- You can reject anything you want, but the premise isn't mine. Notability for an article and notability for mention in an article are different standards but are still a part of how we determine content's encyclopedic value and worthiness for inclusion or exclusion. At this point I think most of this content is politically motivated and the sources misused. I support exclusion based on the questionable manner in which the information is being added and sourced.--Mark Miller (talk) 23:40, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- I reject your premise that the subject is "notable" enough (presumably you meant "noteworthy"; notability in a Wikipedia context only pertains to a subject having its own article) to get its own segment here when countless other arguably more important topics (school choice, the USA's extreme tort abuse compared to other countries, fueled by the powerful trial lawyer lobby, late term abortions, the breakdown of the family and rise of single parent homes, etc.) are ignored. The USA's high incarceration rate is already mentioned in the section in its own segment so I can only surmise that Casprings emphasized that above because he was initially confused (he may have originally indicated opposition to including a private prison segment because he thought I was supporting it, and then when he finally realized what was going on switched sides). I also reject your premise that the sources used are necessarily "weak" for the task at hand. If you're going to cover opinion (which is what "criticism" is) on an emerging (but still little discussed) controversial topic, then these are the type of sources you're going to have. All I'm saying is that if there's a dispute, which is what "criticism" implies, then we cover it in a neutral manner, and without taking sides in Wikipedia's voice. Even if the sources are low quality, it's better to have low quality sources from both sides than only one side. VictorD7 (talk) 22:23, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- I believe the point being made is, that the subject is notable enough for mention in this summary article of the overall importance or notability of prison over-population and the government allowing prisons to be run by private companies in some instances. This seems reasonable but right now I wouldn't call it soapboxing. However, this illustrates the problems of using weak sources and then trying to balance the sources with other sources. That isn't balance that is just more soapboxing. I think these issues are far deeper than just the topics. The sources being used appear to be veiled partisan bickering within the article. Is there a way to get past this? Wouldn't further research for stronger sources and more accurate overview of the issue be better than just debating what is there so far if the sources are being questioned?--Mark Miller (talk) 22:01, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- The sources I added have far more balance than the stridently polemical ones Griffin added. Frankly including this sentence at all is niche soapboxing inappropriate for this broad summary article, but if it's to remain it must conform with neutrality policy. VictorD7 (talk) 19:49, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- "You can't say in Wikipedia's voice that prison privatization has come under "criticism" while excluding any mention of those who praise or support it when it's the status quo, most people support it, and many prominent politicians and noteworthy commentators support it." This sort of thing almost always has a due amount of balance in academic circles and opinion but we can't just toss in any support. The balance should come from whatever weight the arguments have in real life. Prison overcrowding may have supporters, but just adding their mention may not be within guidelines if they are not in reliable sources. Generally the balance will be in the sources. If there is no balance, I would wonder a bit about that sources or the subject. In this case, what exactly do "supporters" of private prisons have to add to the over all subject from sources. That might be interesting to look at, but it is a little like arguing for the sake of arguing if the is no real need for the balance. Not that there isn't in this case...but we do need to consider it.--Mark Miller (talk) 19:45, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- "Criticism", no matter how scholarly, is still opinion, as is praise. You can't say in Wikipedia's voice that prison privatization has come under "criticism" while excluding any mention of those who praise or support it when it's the status quo, most people support it, and many prominent politicians and noteworthy commentators support it. What I did was take your extreme WP:NPOV violating sentence and make it one that neutrally acknowledges the debate with sources representing both points of view. I added two peer reviewed articles with less polemical, more scholarly sounding titles than yours: "Cost Effectiveness Comparisons of Private Versus Public Prisons in Louisiana: A Comprehensive Analysis of Allen, Avoyelles, and Winn Correctional Centers" and "A Tale of Two Prisons: Cost, Quality, and Accountability in Private Prisons", and yes, I added two fact heavy think tank pieces to fully flesh out the other POV. I used these in part because they brought together a lot of different arguments and sub topics and because I only wanted to use four sources to balance your four sources, rather than piling on with many more. Those think tank pieces are certainly RS for their own opinions, which is what they're being used for here, as are your sources. VictorD7 (talk) 19:20, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- The books listed are from researchers and published at by University Presses.
- The Illusion of Free Markets: Punishment and the Myth of Natural Order published by Harvard University Press and by Bernard Harcourt at The University of Columbia.
- Punishment for sale: Private Prisons, Big Business, and the Incarceration Binge by Donna Selman from Eastern Michigan and Paul Leighton from Eastern Michigan.
- The Prison State and the Lockdown of American Politics from Princeton University Press by Marie Gottschalk out of UPEN
- These are all independent researchers publishing from respected publishing companies. In my opinion, they are better WP:RS then the sources you listed. Casprings (talk) 20:05, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- So? They're clearly polemical. I think my two more scholarly, neutrally toned articles (from the Harvard Law Review and Oklahoma Criminal Justice Research Consortium Journal) and even the two think tank analyses are better than your sources, but fortunately we don't have to choose. We can retain both. VictorD7 (talk) 22:00, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- Let us drop the privatization sentence all together, and just state the raw data of per capita incarcerated, total population, and total number on death row, and leave it at that. To give context, we can provide crime rate, and number of homicides, with details being left to the article Crime in the United States. That should be able to be stated neutrally, with good sources, and then the rest of the details can be expanded upon in the specific article about this topic: Incarceration in the United States.
- No need to state adjectives like "most", "greatest", "fewest". No need to compare to other nations. Just give the raw data. Does this sound like a fair compromise?--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 22:18, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
Living space
4. I don't think we need to say "According to a 2011 report by The Heritage Foundation" before "Americans on average have over twice as much living space per dwelling and per person as European Union residents" because I don't think the underlying statistic is in dispute, so it's fine to say it in Wikipedia's voice. I would prefer that we find a more centrist source to cite, but I don't feel strongly enough about that to go looking for one. I do wonder whether we should be reporting highly skewed mean living space as "average," instead of the median. Therefore I propose to replace the mean with the median living space size. Does anyone have a source for that? EllenCT (talk) 01:36, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- Not RS for that claim in my opinion. As a conservative think-tank I don't know why they would be cited for this fact.--Mark Miller (talk) 01:39, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- But you have no problem with EPI (a liberal think tank) or countless other leftist sources used throughout the article? Unlike the EPI based chart/sentence, which is based on EPI's unverifiable (in fact disputed) original calculations and yet shoves a striking visual image on alleged "productivity" into readers' faces, Heritage simply relays publicly available government information. The source is definitely RS and the facts aren't in dispute. As to Ellen's question, I'm fine with adding median stats if one can find them (I don't recall off the top of my head if I've seen them or not), but mean is a legitimate stat too, and in this case the gap is so large that it wouldn't fundamentally alter the international comparison anyway. Even on income using median instead of mean doesn't radically alter international rankings. VictorD7 (talk) 02:33, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- I have a problem with certain sources that are far weaker for the claims than those publications from experts in the fields...Yes. Not wanting one does not mean I want any of the others. This was brought up and this is my opinion and input for the subject of this thread.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:44, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- Your refusal to answer the question about the leftist think tank EPI and the much more prominent visual and text segment it serves as the sole source for in the same section is noted. Consistency is vital to neutrality and good faith editing. The Heritage piece was written and reviewed by experts in the field. Again, the stats come directly from publicly available data that I had posted as a second source at one point so any skeptics could verify it for themselves, but I guess may have been removed when there was a big push to reduce article space (including frivolous sources) a while back. The facts presented are undisputed. VictorD7 (talk) 19:46, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- If left-leaning think tanks which fall under WP:BIASED, are accepted, and right-leaning think tanks are not accepted. This is a HUGE problem, not just for this article but for all of Wikipedia. That's like saying only sources from country X are only acceptable, while sources from country Y are never acceptable.
- That being said, why not just give a the raw data?--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 22:23, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- Good question. The raw data is publicly available from different government sources (one American and one European) but combined in a comparison by Heritage. It would be OR for us to only use the government sources without including the source that made the comparison. VictorD7 (talk) 22:31, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- Victor was the one that accused me of having no problem with the left leaning sources when I already said I have a problem with any source being used that is weaker than an academic source that should be used. I am against using left or right leaning political sources and again, why are we using such sources?--Mark Miller (talk) 23:34, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- But I provided a salient actual example from the same section and you refused to specifically comment on it, rendering your vague disclaimer hollow. While there are real problems with the EPI graph/segment (for one thing it's disputed) not shared by the perfectly fine Heritage segment, I will say that we aren't restricted to only using "academic sources", nor are we prohibited from using "political sources". You just endorsed an OECD chart on inequality below, and of course most sources used here aren't academic. Academic sources can be very political anyway. VictorD7 (talk) 02:54, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- Victor was the one that accused me of having no problem with the left leaning sources when I already said I have a problem with any source being used that is weaker than an academic source that should be used. I am against using left or right leaning political sources and again, why are we using such sources?--Mark Miller (talk) 23:34, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- Good question. The raw data is publicly available from different government sources (one American and one European) but combined in a comparison by Heritage. It would be OR for us to only use the government sources without including the source that made the comparison. VictorD7 (talk) 22:31, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- Your refusal to answer the question about the leftist think tank EPI and the much more prominent visual and text segment it serves as the sole source for in the same section is noted. Consistency is vital to neutrality and good faith editing. The Heritage piece was written and reviewed by experts in the field. Again, the stats come directly from publicly available data that I had posted as a second source at one point so any skeptics could verify it for themselves, but I guess may have been removed when there was a big push to reduce article space (including frivolous sources) a while back. The facts presented are undisputed. VictorD7 (talk) 19:46, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- I have a problem with certain sources that are far weaker for the claims than those publications from experts in the fields...Yes. Not wanting one does not mean I want any of the others. This was brought up and this is my opinion and input for the subject of this thread.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:44, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- But you have no problem with EPI (a liberal think tank) or countless other leftist sources used throughout the article? Unlike the EPI based chart/sentence, which is based on EPI's unverifiable (in fact disputed) original calculations and yet shoves a striking visual image on alleged "productivity" into readers' faces, Heritage simply relays publicly available government information. The source is definitely RS and the facts aren't in dispute. As to Ellen's question, I'm fine with adding median stats if one can find them (I don't recall off the top of my head if I've seen them or not), but mean is a legitimate stat too, and in this case the gap is so large that it wouldn't fundamentally alter the international comparison anyway. Even on income using median instead of mean doesn't radically alter international rankings. VictorD7 (talk) 02:33, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
Income inequality trends
5. This was discussed and revised at great length, and I thought I addressed all of the objections; if any objections remain, please state them so we can work out a compromise: "According to Pavlina Tcherneva at Bard College's Levy Economics Institute, the lack of income increases commensurate with productivity, the gender pay gap, and the erosion of unemployment safety net welfare at living wages have led to the increases in income inequality.[1][2][3]"
References
- ^ Tcherneva, Pavlina R. (April 2015). "When a rising tide sinks most boats: trends in US income inequality" (PDF). levyinstitute.org. Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. Retrieved 10 April 2015.
- ^ Casselman, Ben (September 22, 2014). "The American Middle Class Hasn't Gotten A Raise In 15 Years". FiveThirtyEightEconomics. Retrieved 23 April 2015.
- ^ Parlapiano, Alicia; Gebeloff, Robert; Carter, Shan (January 26, 2013). "The Shrinking American Middle Class". The Upshot. New York Times. Retrieved 23 April 2015.
- I have said this before and I will say it again. That section needs to be a summary per WP:SUMMARY of Income in the United States, Poverty in the United States, Affluence in the United States, and Income inequality in the United States, and not a section created from scratch. I will strongly oppose any new litigation about what to include, what to exclude, and how it needs to be framed, of any material that is not a good faith attempt to summarize these articles here. The leads of these articles may be a good starting point, as leads are supposed to be an abstract of these articles. - Cwobeel (talk) 03:48, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- Why not United States counties by per capita income which is also a linked "further information" header? In practice at least portions of virtually all Wikipedia articles are written from scratch, in part because all of these articles are in constant flux. Material is sometimes taken from subarticles and added to pages like this, and vice versa, but other times fresh material is added. As for doing nothing but summarizing other articles here, low traffic articles are often lower quality (sometimes extremely messed up) and the question of how to summarize four or five subarticles covering different topics into one, different section in a way that's appropriate for this article is more complicated than it may seem at first glance. Also, if editors want to improve encyclopedic coverage, should they start editing from scratch at the linked subarticles, the subarticles linked to on those pages, or the ones linked to from there, etc..? Should editors just let problems sit on very high traffic articles while all this is taking place? If you feel the section doesn't properly summarize the linked "further information" articles, and this really bothers you, it may be a more efficient solution to simply change or delete those header links. I'm not sure we need five for Income anyway. There likely would have been far more resistance to them being added at the time if editors had thought they would be rigidly dictating the sections' permissible shapes. VictorD7 (talk) 18:23, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- Can you tell whether Tcherneva thinks that increasing the Earned Income Tax Credit forms a legitimate unemployment safety net? At first glance, it might not, because it doesn't apply to the unemployed, but in reality is the incentive and consumer spending demand sufficient for growth? EllenCT (talk) 01:38, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- Everything in this section needs to be ironed out there is a huge ugly template and a tag in the section. That needs to go away and to do that a consensus here is important. The sentence makes no sense to me.--Mark Miller (talk) 01:44, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- Which question makes no sense and why doesn't it? EllenCT (talk) 15:14, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- Oh, sorry. No question, the sentence in debate from the article: "According to Pavlina Tcherneva at Bard College's Levy Economics Institute, the lack of income increases commensurate with productivity, the gender pay gap, and the erosion of unemployment safety net welfare at living wages have led to the increases in income inequality". That's an awful lot to take in. I'm not sure what it's saying. As an opinion, is it possible to use a direct quote? Would that not be more to guidelines or would that make this more complicated?--Mark Miller (talk) 19:02, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- My concern here is that we have the opinion of someone (I assume is notable enough to use in the article) however, I only see the primary source work that the opinion is derived from and no source making the claim itself. In other words, we need a source that says that Pavlina Tcherneva has this opinion in order to use the opinion here. I scanned the other two sources and they appear to be supporting references for Pavlina Tcherneva's opinion but don't seem to mention the author. Or did I miss it?--Mark Miller (talk) 19:08, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- Which question makes no sense and why doesn't it? EllenCT (talk) 15:14, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- Everything in this section needs to be ironed out there is a huge ugly template and a tag in the section. That needs to go away and to do that a consensus here is important. The sentence makes no sense to me.--Mark Miller (talk) 01:44, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- Can you tell whether Tcherneva thinks that increasing the Earned Income Tax Credit forms a legitimate unemployment safety net? At first glance, it might not, because it doesn't apply to the unemployed, but in reality is the incentive and consumer spending demand sufficient for growth? EllenCT (talk) 01:38, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- Why not United States counties by per capita income which is also a linked "further information" header? In practice at least portions of virtually all Wikipedia articles are written from scratch, in part because all of these articles are in constant flux. Material is sometimes taken from subarticles and added to pages like this, and vice versa, but other times fresh material is added. As for doing nothing but summarizing other articles here, low traffic articles are often lower quality (sometimes extremely messed up) and the question of how to summarize four or five subarticles covering different topics into one, different section in a way that's appropriate for this article is more complicated than it may seem at first glance. Also, if editors want to improve encyclopedic coverage, should they start editing from scratch at the linked subarticles, the subarticles linked to on those pages, or the ones linked to from there, etc..? Should editors just let problems sit on very high traffic articles while all this is taking place? If you feel the section doesn't properly summarize the linked "further information" articles, and this really bothers you, it may be a more efficient solution to simply change or delete those header links. I'm not sure we need five for Income anyway. There likely would have been far more resistance to them being added at the time if editors had thought they would be rigidly dictating the sections' permissible shapes. VictorD7 (talk) 18:23, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- I have said this before and I will say it again. That section needs to be a summary per WP:SUMMARY of Income in the United States, Poverty in the United States, Affluence in the United States, and Income inequality in the United States, and not a section created from scratch. I will strongly oppose any new litigation about what to include, what to exclude, and how it needs to be framed, of any material that is not a good faith attempt to summarize these articles here. The leads of these articles may be a good starting point, as leads are supposed to be an abstract of these articles. - Cwobeel (talk) 03:48, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
Some information that was removed from Economic inequality that may be of interest to this article:
There is statistical evidence that shows strong links between single-parent families and lower income.[1][2] In spite of the statistical evidence about the economic advantages enjoyed by married couples and also by their children, evidence that is at odds with ideological positions of many influential voices, Maranto and Crouch point out that "in the current discussions about increased inequality, few researchers... directly address what seems to be the strongest statistical correlate of inequality in the United States: the rise of single-parent families during the past half century." [3]WSJ article
Economic growth has also had issues with undue weight and POV, primarily by someone who is also causing problems with this article. My recommendation is that we have this person blocked.Phmoreno (talk) 01:29, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
- OK but...any such block discussion would take place at ANI and I am not sure how to respond other than to ask....who do you want blocked?--Mark Miller (talk) 02:31, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not going to name anyone here, especially because I do not have much experience with this article; however, I did observe the same pattern with this person here as on other articles I actively edit. The person was notified a few days ago. After some checking of that editor's various articles/talk pages I had enough evidence to turn in a complaint to the administrators notice board, which I just did. I think its better to eliminate editors who won't abide by the rules than to let them be a constant drain on resources.Phmoreno (talk) 03:04, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
- Good post, Phmoreno. I mentioned the impact of single parent homes elsewhere on this page earlier as one of the countless examples of niche topics we'll have to consider to be fair game for inclusion now if this current POV blitz is allowed to gain ground. VictorD7 (talk) 22:19, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
Influence of the wealthy / RFC outcome
6. This is the one which pisses me off the most, because it was an attempt to blatantly disregard the outcome of this closed RFC:
RFC-approved passage | Post-RFC text inserted without discussion |
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Growing income inequality and wealth concentration have resulted in affluent individuals, powerful business interests and other economic elites gaining increased influence over public policy.[4][5][6] | The extent and relevance of income inequality is a matter of debate.[4][5][6][disputed – discuss][7] |
References
- ^ Martin, Molly A. (2006) “Family Structure and Income Inequality in Families with Children: 1976 to 2000.” Demography 43: 421-445
- ^ W. Bradford Wilcox. Family Studies
- ^ Robert Maranto and Michael Crouch. Ignoring an Inequality Culprit: Single-Parent Families Intellectuals fretting about income disparity are oddly silent regarding the decline of the two-parent family. April 20, 2014, Wall Street Journal
- ^ a b Martin Gilens and Benjamin I. Page (2014). "Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens". Perspectives on Politics. 12 (3): 564–581. doi:10.1017/S1537592714001595.
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- ^ a b Larry Bartels (2009). "Economic Inequality and Political Representation". The Unsustainable American State. doi:10.1093/acprof:oso/9780195392135.003.0007.
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- ^ a b Thomas J. Hayes (2012). "Responsiveness in an Era of Inequality: The Case of the U.S. Senate". Political Research Quarterly. 66 (3): 585–599. doi:10.1177/1065912912459567.
- ^ Winship, Scott (Spring 2013). "Overstating the Costs of Inequality" (PDF). National Affairs (15). Retrieved April 29, 2015.
"Income Inequality in America: Fact and Fiction" (PDF). Manhattan Institute. May 2014. Retrieved April 29, 2015.
- On 6, the RFC (which was barely participated in and featured significant opposition and qualified support) close only said "The consensus is to include both in some form." The closer went out of his way to word it that way and it wasn't a rubber stamp of approval for your specific text. There should have been more discussion of the precise form of inclusion before it was added. In my opinion at this summary detail level the best way to neutrally include your proposed material is with the statement acknowledging a broad debate on the topic of equality, backed up by sources illustrating the views on each side. Since neutrality is policy I suppose the alternative would be to allow your longer, more detailed exposition and others laying out alternative points of view, though that would bloat the article even more and skew it with undue emphasis on selected topics. VictorD7 (talk) 21:36, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- There were no other proposals made during the RFC period, and your subsequent proposal violates WP:WEASEL. EllenCT (talk) 01:42, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- My "proposal" was made during the RFC discussion, and may have influenced the closer to go out of his way to use the language "included in some form" rather than just "included". The debate over the causes, extent, and impact of inequality is much broader than a couple of cutting edge research papers on very niche subtopics. I strongly reject the assertion that the current language is weasel. It's accurate, neutral, and appropriately broad for this detail level. We can't just censor out the fact that many reject the premises and opinions of the leftists bemoaning "inequality" as if it's the biggest problem we face, and as if it's the purpose of the government to guarantee equality of result. VictorD7 (talk) 03:05, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- There were no other proposals made during the RFC period, and your subsequent proposal violates WP:WEASEL. EllenCT (talk) 01:42, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- In general that's also the problem with 8, 7, 5, and adding more specifics on 3: too much niche detail for this summary country article. All of these also represent POVs on controversial issues. They'd be better suited for more topically focused articles where there would be more room for laying out details and for neutrally covering alternative views as well. Not including them here would also let us avoid the logical question, "Well why not cover issues x, y, and z too?" Different editors have different pet interests they'd like to include if it became a free for all. VictorD7 (talk) 21:36, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
Support the RFC version. The degree of income inequality in the US is unique and its effects should be covered. In my opinion, this as to little WP:WEIGHT.Casprings (talk)
- Thank you. Please sign your statements with four tildes here on the talk page. EllenCT (talk) 01:42, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- Inequality already has about six full lines of text in the Income section alone, and receives by far more coverage than any other topic there. Just how much weight do you feel it should have? VictorD7 (talk) 03:05, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
Support the RFC version. It is interesting to note that a new report by the OECD warns that global inequality continues to climb, and the United States, along with Mexico, Chile (thank you Pinochet), and Turkey, rank highest on the spectrum (social democratic Denmark ranks as having the lowest levels of inequality). Casprings is right, this issue does carry significant weight and the effects deserve mention in the article.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 13:13, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
While there is a disparity in income, it's because the United States doesn't operate on a state-owned property, communism model. As the RfC stated, there should be elements from both POVs present in the article. Furthermore, as VictorD7, rightfully stated, there is more content on income inequality than any other part of content in that section. And while income inequality might grow, it can be argued based on reliable sources that, during the recent history, the rich trend to be Democrats: NYT "“The paradox is that, while these rich states have become more strongly Democratic over time, rich voters have remained consistently more Republican than voters on the lower end of the income scale,”", New American Gazette "An analysis of the Top 20 Richest People in America (from Forbes Top 100) reveals that a full 60% are actually Democrats.", Associated Press "But in Congress, the wealthiest among us are more likely to be represented by a Democrat than a Republican. Of the 10 richest House districts, only two have Republican congressmen.", and Forbes "Of the ten richest zip codes in the U.S. eight gave more money to Democrats than Republicans in the last two presidential cycles.". Therefore, the growing income inequality, is due to the Democratic Party. However, I doubt that this will be reflected in this article.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 22:57, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
Poverty trends
7. I am not sure this passage was discussed on the talk page before being inserted, but I certainly support its inclusion: "Academics claim that since the 1980s, new and extreme forms of poverty have emerged in the U.S. as a result of neoliberal policies and globalization.[1][2]"
References
- ^ Stephen Haymes, Maria Vidal de Haymes and Reuben Miller (eds), The Routledge Handbook of Poverty in the United States, (London: Routledge, 2015), ISBN 0415673445, pp. 2, 3 & 346.
- ^ Loïc Wacquant, Punishing the Poor: The Neoliberal Government of Social Insecurity, (Durham, North Carolina: Duke University Press, 2009), ISBN 082234422X, pp. 53-54.
- This kind of wording can be problematic, because it is possible to cherry-pick academic sources to make such a sweeping statement (or WP:WEASEL). You can collect several sources by Chicago School right-wing academics or leftist academics to make contradicting "Academics claim..." statements. --Pudeo' 00:11, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Correct. It's usually problematic to get into selective correlations and assertions about causality in this article, especially if it's potentially controversial, as this certainly is. There may be a place for neutrally laying out various significant views on a controversial issue, but this isn't the right article for such opinions, and one view on a disputed issue should never be cherry-picked for unchallenged presentation. VictorD7 (talk) 18:34, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
- I am inclined to agree because "new and extreme forms of poverty" emerge when the median real income falls. It is sufficient to describe the trends in the underlying statistics than to harp on their resulting misery or gloat at their blessings. Instead, we should accentuate our best proposals for further improvement. EllenCT (talk) 21:00, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- Correct. It's usually problematic to get into selective correlations and assertions about causality in this article, especially if it's potentially controversial, as this certainly is. There may be a place for neutrally laying out various significant views on a controversial issue, but this isn't the right article for such opinions, and one view on a disputed issue should never be cherry-picked for unchallenged presentation. VictorD7 (talk) 18:34, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
Wage trends by education level
8. This was extensively discussed without actual objections to the text as was included, as far as I can tell, just unsupported claims that it is somehow POV pushing, which I think is absurd because it's such a plain non-political and hugely economically significant fact: "From 1990 to 2013, workers with high school education or less have lost more wages than those with college degrees have gained.[1]"
References
- ^ Irwin, Neil (April 21, 2015). "Why American Workers Without Much Education Are Being Hammered". The Upshot. New York Times. Retrieved 25 April 2015.
- This is in line with the wealth inequality argument, except that the statement "workers with high school education or less have lost more wages than those with college degrees have gained" actually seems nonsensical to me. The Times article implies that the answer is a higher minimum wage and unionization. But a higher minimum wage will only work if it does actually increase worker productivity, when the arguments tend to center on workers not being able to lead the good life. What's likely to happen is that stores will close (already lost my favorite McDonald's) or the $9/hr people will be replaced by $15/hr people. The eventually corrupting power of unionization is well-known (see Levinson's _The Box_, which makes containerization, and thus globalization, seem worthy if only because it undercut the pilfering, featherbedding Longshoreman's Union). And there isn't any comment on the havoc that the lousy school systems have wrought (ever see a native-born American worker with a worse grasp of English than someone for whom English is a second language, the number of years of schooling being equivalent?).
- And where are the articles on this issue from the Wall Street Journal, National Review, Weekly Standard, Washington Times, etc.?
- But I digress. Your point of view pushing is demonstrable. You labeled me as "uninvolved with this article" when my name is on the diff referenced by the closing statement of the RfC you were recently purporting to be implementing. In other words, I hope that, on the verge of the article being reopened, you will stay your hand at making further changes. We should set up a section on wealth inequality, assuming that it's not thought too contentious to include, where the actual text of what is to be included in the article will be cobbled together, voted on, and then placed by someone less passionate on the issue, referenced easily by a link in the form of talk page name-section name, and not have vague claims of consensus stand in for that. Dhtwiki (talk) 00:13, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
- Please forgive me if I mischaracterized your involvement. How would you phrase the essential statistic? Do you think the revenue implications are more or less as important as the underlying fact? EllenCT (talk) 01:46, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- I believe I objected? If memory serves me?--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 22:58, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- Please forgive me if I mischaracterized your involvement. How would you phrase the essential statistic? Do you think the revenue implications are more or less as important as the underlying fact? EllenCT (talk) 01:46, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
Phrasing for inequality RFC segment.
I had to start this section because the above one falsely labels Ellen's preferred text "RFC-approved" at the top, when the RFC closer went out of his way to say the material was allowed "in some form", clearly not a rubber stamp approval of her phrasing. Also, I proposed the broader, neutral alternative text during the RFC discussion, not after it, and the above section omits some sourcing involved.
Proposal A | Proposal B |
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Growing income inequality and wealth concentration have resulted in affluent individuals, powerful business interests and other economic elites gaining increased influence over public policy.[1][2][3][disputed – discuss] | The extent and relevance of income inequality is a matter of debate.[1][2][3][4][5][6] |
References
- ^ a b Martin Gilens and Benjamin I. Page (2014). "Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens". Perspectives on Politics. 12 (3): 564–581. doi:10.1017/S1537592714001595.
{{cite journal}}
: External link in
(help)|title=
- ^ a b Larry Bartels (2009). "Economic Inequality and Political Representation". The Unsustainable American State. doi:10.1093/acprof:oso/9780195392135.003.0007.
{{cite journal}}
: External link in
(help)|title=
- ^ a b Thomas J. Hayes (2012). "Responsiveness in an Era of Inequality: The Case of the U.S. Senate". Political Research Quarterly. 66 (3): 585–599. doi:10.1177/1065912912459567.
- ^ Winship, Scott (Spring 2013). "Overstating the Costs of Inequality" (PDF). National Affairs (15). Retrieved April 29, 2015.
- ^ "Income Inequality in America: Fact and Fiction" (PDF). Manhattan Institute. May 2014. Retrieved April 29, 2015.(A collection of articles on various inequality topics by accomplished economists and sociologists who have worked in academia, the government, and the private sector)
- ^ Stiles, Andrew (May 28, 2014). "The Full Piketty: Experts raise questions about Frenchman's data on income inequality". The Washington Free Beacon. Retrieved 23 May 2015.(Includes essential quotes and links to a Wall Street Journal piece by Harvard economist and NBER president emeritus Martin Feldstein, a widely publicized investigative report by Financial Times economics editor Chris Giles, an article by widely published, influential economist and senior Cato Institute fellow Alan Reynolds, and a National Review article by George Mason University economist Veronique de Rugy that cites views from prominent economist Tyler Cowen and several French economists from the globally prestigious l’Institut d’Etudes Politiques de Paris)
The sources were consolidated into two references with internal breaks to save space in the article.
I made the alternative proposal as a way to include Ellen's sources while avoiding a POV and niche topical skew, particularly one based on a few avante garde, cutting edge, highly subjective research papers of the type we should always be cautious about using as sources. Proposal B deals with the inequality issue in a broader way more appropriate to this article's detail level, neutrally covering opinions on it from all angles, including from a number of established, notable experts. It also includes Ellen's material in a closed way that requires no further expansion, while Proposal A would spark the addition of counterpoints and other controversial talking points deemed of interest to various editors, leading to dramatic article bloat in a page already deemed too long by most and likely contentious edit warring.
A fair discussion can't take place in the above section, where Ellen admits she was pissed off, which may have warped its construction, so I'll ask EllenCT, C.J. Griffin, Casprings, RightCowLeftCoast, Capitalismojo, Mattnad, and anyone else who has participated in this discussion or wants to to do so here. Let's iron out a consensus phrasing. Do you favor one of the above proposals? A modified version? Do you have an entirely different proposal? VictorD7 (talk) 21:46, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- How many times do you think you can keep calling a new vote while you're losing? I propose including the Wall Street Journal's recent graphic. EllenCT (talk) 22:40, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- Just establishing a fairer baseline. BTW, how many visuals do you want in the Income section, lol? VictorD7 (talk) 02:44, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- Do you know where to get the time series for the data on pages 12 and 13 of [43]? It might also be good to present that along with asset ownership by demographic categories from the triennial FRB consumer survey as we had discussed doing elsewhere. EllenCT (talk) 16:30, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- So you're advocating having at least three and maybe four images in the Income section alone? No, I don't think we should be adding any new images now, especially overly detailed ones on such selectively niche topics. There are multiple editors having a completely separate discussion above about the Income section being way too long and advocating cutting it to maybe a sentence or two. Don't stretch the rubber band too far or you may not like where it lands when you let go. VictorD7 (talk) 17:49, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- Do you know where to get the time series for the data on pages 12 and 13 of [43]? It might also be good to present that along with asset ownership by demographic categories from the triennial FRB consumer survey as we had discussed doing elsewhere. EllenCT (talk) 16:30, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- Just establishing a fairer baseline. BTW, how many visuals do you want in the Income section, lol? VictorD7 (talk) 02:44, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- How many times do you think you can keep calling a new vote while you're losing? I propose including the Wall Street Journal's recent graphic. EllenCT (talk) 22:40, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
- I prefer A in a copy edited for or this one if not edited. But I also support adding the additional source Ellen provides.
Increased income inequality and the concentration of capital have resulted in growing individual affluence and created a select economic force, giving business interests more influence over public policy.[1][2][3]
- But I could live with the original text for now if I had to.--Mark Miller (talk) 17:52, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- Don't you think Proposal A should at least be attributed as opinion rather than presented as fact in Wikipedia's voice? And would you support other editors expanding the broader inequality discussion to include views like those from the well credentialed experts I cited above? VictorD7 (talk) 17:56, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- No, I believe that statement A is sourced correctly with expert academic journals. It could be expanded with opinion sources like editorials in support (which in turn would need balance of opposing opinion), but how much weight should be given to opinion or editorials can be very difficult in short summary like this. These do appear to be correct and accurate trends recorded and documented in a number of ways. We could add more supporting primary sources such as the CBO reports and a vast amount of work and research by a number of editors on this subject. I once went to DRN over this subject and the way it was being presented. My main concern is the encyclopedic tone, but the facts were well established in the DRN by two other editors.--Mark Miller (talk) 18:54, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- Don't you think Proposal A should at least be attributed as opinion rather than presented as fact in Wikipedia's voice? And would you support other editors expanding the broader inequality discussion to include views like those from the well credentialed experts I cited above? VictorD7 (talk) 17:56, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- But I could live with the original text for now if I had to.--Mark Miller (talk) 17:52, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- Mark, you realize that much of what appears in academic journals is opinion, don't you? This topic in particular isn't hard science, and these aren't long established, consensus expert conclusions resulting from a mature discussion. Have you read these articles? These are tentative, recent, cutting edge articles with conclusions that just happen to line up with the authors' political agendas. They're subjectively constructed (being a humanities topic) and filled with speculative assumptions other researchers don't share. What's more, they acknowledge this. Gilens himself states that (564), "Here—in a tentative and preliminary way—we offer such a test, bringing a unique data set to bear on the problem. Our measures are far from perfect, but we hope that this first step will help inspire further research into what we see as some of the most fundamental questions about American politics." Gilens even acknowledges that much of the empirical evidence and many scholars disagree with his views: (page 565) "..a good many scholars—probably more economists than political scientists among them—still cling to the idea that the policy preferences of the median voter tend to drive policy outputs from the U.S. political system. A fair amount of empirical evidence has been adduced—by Alan Monroe; Benjamin Page and Robert Shapiro; Robert Erikson, Michael MacKuen, and James Stimson (authors of the very influential Macro Polity); and others—that seems to support the notion that the median voter determines the results of much or most policy making".
- Bartels even admits that he hasn't proved the causal link asserted in Proposal A (29-31): "It is important to reiterate that I have been using the terms “responsiveness” and “representation” loosely to refer to the statistical association between constituents’ opinions and their senators’ behavior. Whether senators behave the way they do because their constituents have the opinions they do is impossible to gauge using the research design employed here. It is certainly plausible to imagine that senators consciously and intentionally strive to represent the views of (especially) affluent constituents. However, it might also be the case, as Jacobs and Page (2005) have suggested in the context of national foreign policy-making, that public opinion seems to be influential only because it happens to be correlated with the opinion of influential elites, organized interest groups, or the policy-makers themselves." Like Gilens, he goes on to state "There is clearly a great deal more work to be done investigating the mechanisms by which economic inequality gets reproduced in the political realm", and conceded "the significant limitations of my data and the crudeness of my analysis" meant more work is needed.
- Actually these studies are garbage, full of methodological flaws pointed out by me and others elsewhere in previous discussions, but that's beside the point. It's not about whether they "appear to be correct and accurate" or not to you and me, but whether they represent the expert consensus, and the articles themselves admit they don't. The authors are nowhere near as certain as you're suggesting we be with Proposal A. The material should certainly be attributed if it belongs here at all. VictorD7 (talk) 20:06, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- That was very extensive, and yet it still doesn't come close to disproving the claims or that the sources do not contain the facts being summarized.--Mark Miller (talk) 20:32, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- Did you read the part where Bartels says his method can't prove that economic elites have greater influence over public policy, completely undermining the factual claim asserted in Proposal A? VictorD7 (talk) 20:34, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- I disagree with a lot of what you are assuming and a lot of the direction you are taking in regard to the sources but again, you have not demonstrated that they do not support the claims. This argument about academic journals is old is not entirely accurate or we would be removing every journal used to source facts.--Mark Miller (talk) 21:51, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- Did you read the part where Bartels says his method can't prove that economic elites have greater influence over public policy, completely undermining the factual claim asserted in Proposal A? VictorD7 (talk) 20:34, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- That was very extensive, and yet it still doesn't come close to disproving the claims or that the sources do not contain the facts being summarized.--Mark Miller (talk) 20:32, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- Actually these studies are garbage, full of methodological flaws pointed out by me and others elsewhere in previous discussions, but that's beside the point. It's not about whether they "appear to be correct and accurate" or not to you and me, but whether they represent the expert consensus, and the articles themselves admit they don't. The authors are nowhere near as certain as you're suggesting we be with Proposal A. The material should certainly be attributed if it belongs here at all. VictorD7 (talk) 20:06, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- A "capitol" is a building in which a legislature meets. EllenCT (talk) 22:08, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- Yep. LOL! Good catch. Capitol is derived from Capitoline Hill.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:24, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
- It's 2015. Anyone seriously considering adding the statement "The extent and relevance of income inequality is a matter of debate" to this article is engaging in outright denial. We know the extent and relevance of income inequality in comparison to other countries. This is not seriously in dispute by anyone other than fringe sources. Viriditas (talk) 19:21, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- This discussion isn't about "income inequality in comparison to other countries." Try reading more closely, including the sources added from experts who don't share your politics. They're certainly not "fringe". VictorD7 (talk) 20:06, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- The discussion is just about improving the article and Viriditas' point seems valid. It would appear like denying facts to use "B".--Mark Miller (talk) 20:28, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- You're saying there's no debate on inequality, lol? How then do you explain all the sources posted by both sides saying there is a debate? It helps to actually read the sources, even the ones your political ally posts. Talk about denying facts....VictorD7 (talk) 20:31, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- VictorD7, you are intentionally attempting to manufacture doubt about inequality in the U.S. We know there is income inequality in the U.S. and we know about its impact. By continuing to manufacture doubt about income inequality you are engaging in denial. Viriditas (talk) 20:31, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
- Your vapid name calling is a poor substitute for intelligent, substantive discourse, Viriditas. I manufactured nothing. I quoted expert sources. In fact I appear to be the only one here who's even willing to read Ellen's sources all the way through. No one denied "there is income inequality in the U.S." or indeed in every country. Fortunately. Can you imagine how stifling and terrible the world would be if there wasn't any? But that has nothing to do with this discussion. VictorD7 (talk) 22:15, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
- Describing your edits as an attempt to manufacture doubt and cast uncertainty on income inequality is not "name calling". For the record, you are the only one who has engaged in personalizing the dispute here in this thread, referring to "experts who don't share your politics" when I have not discussed my politics and referring to other editors who don't agree with you as "political allies". Instead of manufacturing doubt and casting uncertainty on the subject, what you are doing is trying to politicize this discussion by casting doubt and uncertainty on the motivations of participating editors. So when you are not busy manufacturing doubt and uncertainty about income inequality, you try to do the same thing to editors. Yet, here you are accusing others of "name calling"? I'm sorry, Victor, but you aren't playing fair nor are you being reasonable. Viriditas (talk) 22:47, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
- You engaged in false personal characterizations, and totally dodged the specific substance which I've posted above in abundance. By contrast my description of various editors' politics is accurate, as is my point about you repeatedly not even grasping what this discussion is about (hint: it's a lot more specific than "inequality in the U.S.", and isn't about international comparisons, which are already present elsewhere in the section). I'm being extremely fair and reasonable. Worry less about my motives and focus on actually reading the article, proposals, and sources involved. Think critically about them too. Pay especially close attention to the material I quoted and bolded above. VictorD7 (talk) 00:01, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
- Describing your edits as an attempt to manufacture doubt and cast uncertainty on income inequality is not "name calling". For the record, you are the only one who has engaged in personalizing the dispute here in this thread, referring to "experts who don't share your politics" when I have not discussed my politics and referring to other editors who don't agree with you as "political allies". Instead of manufacturing doubt and casting uncertainty on the subject, what you are doing is trying to politicize this discussion by casting doubt and uncertainty on the motivations of participating editors. So when you are not busy manufacturing doubt and uncertainty about income inequality, you try to do the same thing to editors. Yet, here you are accusing others of "name calling"? I'm sorry, Victor, but you aren't playing fair nor are you being reasonable. Viriditas (talk) 22:47, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
- Your vapid name calling is a poor substitute for intelligent, substantive discourse, Viriditas. I manufactured nothing. I quoted expert sources. In fact I appear to be the only one here who's even willing to read Ellen's sources all the way through. No one denied "there is income inequality in the U.S." or indeed in every country. Fortunately. Can you imagine how stifling and terrible the world would be if there wasn't any? But that has nothing to do with this discussion. VictorD7 (talk) 22:15, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
- VictorD7, you are intentionally attempting to manufacture doubt about inequality in the U.S. We know there is income inequality in the U.S. and we know about its impact. By continuing to manufacture doubt about income inequality you are engaging in denial. Viriditas (talk) 20:31, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
- You're saying there's no debate on inequality, lol? How then do you explain all the sources posted by both sides saying there is a debate? It helps to actually read the sources, even the ones your political ally posts. Talk about denying facts....VictorD7 (talk) 20:31, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- Proposal A The evidence is very clear and backed by multiple sources. The "debate" is similar to the "debate" on global warming. Casprings (talk) 00:31, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
- Did you actually read the sources? Because, as I quoted above, even they disagree with your assertion here. Gilens explicitly says "many" (his word) researchers disagree with him, Bartels concedes his method can't prove that economic elites have greater influence over policy, and they both describe their methodology as "tentative", and "crude", calling for more research. In short, they don't support the phrasing of Proposal A. Why would any honest, competent editor oppose attributing this claim as opinion to the authors used as sources, while acknowledging the alternative views even those sources admit exist? VictorD7 (talk) 22:15, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
- Proposal B Proposal A, to the extent it's not just a truism, has a bad connotation (that we worry when "business interests" seem ascendant, but not the bureaucracy, academy, etc.), and the sources backing it are insular (two of the three carry Princeton's imprimatur), jargonistic and mathematical (making the argument with labels and mathematical givens, rather than a more accessible historical narrative), and rife with questionable assumptions (that labor unions speak for the workingman, when it's repugnance at labor's tactics—its legal and physical strong-arming, and its corruption—that have cost union jobs, as much as anything). Proposal B is too bland (there is considerable debate on this point) and its sources have their own problems (mockery of liberal academics, but not the authors of the first three papers; aggregation of articles from the Journal, Financial Times, etc., but not direct links to the newspaper articles themselves (probably behind paywalls), and too-laudatory introductions of the authors (this being source 6, Free Beacon something), etc.). But better to say too little than too much that is questionable, and Proposal B does give a more complete array of sources. Dhtwiki (talk) 02:53, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
Continued attempts to contravene the RFC outcome
I object to this revert because it continues to oppose consensus. I also object to this revert because there have been no compelling reasons stated to omit the fact, against plenty of evidence that it is the most important determinant of economic outcomes. EllenCT (talk) 22:06, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
- I object to the misleading title of this section, since the RFC close explicitly said the material could be allowed "in some form" and wasn't a rubber stamp approval of the phrasing, which is still being discussed (I just recently initiated the first discussion about what your sources actually say). But I object even more strongly to you telling me you agreed with my compromise proposal on the other issue involving tax progressivity and redistribution, which I led off by stating, "The current long standing Government finance segment stays the way it is..." and you replied to by stating, "I'm completely okay with that," only for you to wait several days after I implemented the other part of the compromise in the Economics section to try and sneakily completely delete the comparative progressivity segment that you had agreed to keep as is. Reprehensible. Honesty and good faith are vital to productive collaboration. VictorD7 (talk) 22:33, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
- My proposal for an alternate form is better than yours because it incorporates more comprehensive supporting sources. Do you have actual objections to the education statement? The characterization of tax incidence is a separate issue, and I guess you don't like the changes there, either, but similarly, are you able to say why you don't like them? EllenCT (talk) 02:23, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
- Why did you agree to the compromise proposal ("completely" in your words) and then blatantly violate it a few days later? As for inequality, my proposal incorporates all your sources and a few others, and is a far broader, comprehensive textual statement, so I have no idea what you're talking about. As for your education statement, I might not necessarily oppose some version of it in a vacuum or in other contexts, but I mostly reverted it because every editor to comment on it here opposes it ([44], [45]), and because it's just a random statement that doesn't coherently fit into this article. If we allow that then why not segments on the relationship between single parent homes and income, the impact of centralized bureaucracy or teachers' unions on education, or all sorts of other causal statements? VictorD7 (talk) 00:45, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
- I haven't seen any evidence that any of those factors, including single parent homes, or even all of them together, are more determinant of income inequality than education outcomes. I am not opposed to describing the changes in household composition over time, but I would like to see peer reviewed literature reviews or meta-analyses on the extent to which they are a cause of deleterious outcomes. EllenCT (talk) 04:30, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
- Such research exists on single parent homes and countless other topics (involving income level and totally different subjects) not included in this article, but I think you missed the point. This is a topical/page layout issue, not a sourcing one (recent research papers on complex topics usually don't make good sources anyway). This isn't the place for adding opinions on causality, much less selective ones on selective niche topics, much less to a section most editors already deem too bloated. Let me know if you ever want to explain why you agreed to my tax/spending compromise (at least twice: "I'm completely okay with that" [[46], "I agree with VictorD7's compromise proposal" [47]) only to completely violate it a few days later. VictorD7 (talk) 17:58, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
- Do you understand the difference between recent research papers and literature reviews? I changed my mind about agreeing with you when you made it completely clear that you had zero respect for the RFC outcome. If there is research meeting WP:SECONDARY on your claim of a relationship between household composition and economic output, you have already had ample time to bring it to our attention. EllenCT (talk) 00:24, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
- If your agreement to the proposal was contingent on me doing something else on a different issue you shouldn't have stated that you agreed to it without condition and then waited until after I implemented my part of the compromise days later to violate yours, not that I accept the premise that I disrespected the RFC outcome on that different issue anyway (it's why your sources and the general topic are in the article; plus it's not like my position on that issue changed at some point between you accepting and violating the compromise on the much more long running tax progressivity issue dispute). VictorD7 (talk) 19:02, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- Do you understand the difference between recent research papers and literature reviews? I changed my mind about agreeing with you when you made it completely clear that you had zero respect for the RFC outcome. If there is research meeting WP:SECONDARY on your claim of a relationship between household composition and economic output, you have already had ample time to bring it to our attention. EllenCT (talk) 00:24, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
- Such research exists on single parent homes and countless other topics (involving income level and totally different subjects) not included in this article, but I think you missed the point. This is a topical/page layout issue, not a sourcing one (recent research papers on complex topics usually don't make good sources anyway). This isn't the place for adding opinions on causality, much less selective ones on selective niche topics, much less to a section most editors already deem too bloated. Let me know if you ever want to explain why you agreed to my tax/spending compromise (at least twice: "I'm completely okay with that" [[46], "I agree with VictorD7's compromise proposal" [47]) only to completely violate it a few days later. VictorD7 (talk) 17:58, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
- I haven't seen any evidence that any of those factors, including single parent homes, or even all of them together, are more determinant of income inequality than education outcomes. I am not opposed to describing the changes in household composition over time, but I would like to see peer reviewed literature reviews or meta-analyses on the extent to which they are a cause of deleterious outcomes. EllenCT (talk) 04:30, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
- Why did you agree to the compromise proposal ("completely" in your words) and then blatantly violate it a few days later? As for inequality, my proposal incorporates all your sources and a few others, and is a far broader, comprehensive textual statement, so I have no idea what you're talking about. As for your education statement, I might not necessarily oppose some version of it in a vacuum or in other contexts, but I mostly reverted it because every editor to comment on it here opposes it ([44], [45]), and because it's just a random statement that doesn't coherently fit into this article. If we allow that then why not segments on the relationship between single parent homes and income, the impact of centralized bureaucracy or teachers' unions on education, or all sorts of other causal statements? VictorD7 (talk) 00:45, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
- My proposal for an alternate form is better than yours because it incorporates more comprehensive supporting sources. Do you have actual objections to the education statement? The characterization of tax incidence is a separate issue, and I guess you don't like the changes there, either, but similarly, are you able to say why you don't like them? EllenCT (talk) 02:23, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
- Since you seem to think ignoring RFC outcomes is acceptable and would not make ordinary editors immediately see that you have lost whatever remaining good faith you had left, then would you mind if I just make a few edits according to how I wish the last dozen RFCs had closed out instead of how they actually did? It's a hypothetical question because I have no further interest in your opinion until you find some peer reviewed literature reviews instead of just propaganda sites. EllenCT (talk) 23:40, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
Why were talk discussions archived in the middle of an investigation?
Why would someone archive discussions involving an editor who is being investigated? Phmoreno (talk) 12:05, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
- Can you be more specific, Phmoreno? The last archive entry was automated and both archived threads had no comments for weeks. Tiderolls 12:58, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 27 May 2015
61.150.115.249 (talk) 17:39, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
Not done: as you have not requested a change.
If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 18:29, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
Contingency resources
The Wall Street Journal reports, "household finances remain fragile: 47% said they wouldn’t be able to cover a $400 emergency expense or would have to borrow money or sell something, and 31% said they went without some form of medical care in the last year because they couldn’t afford it." I propose including those facts. EllenCT (talk) 15:18, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 31 May 2015
180.211.189.84 (talk) 07:02, 31 May 2015 (UTC) http://worldnewse24.blogspot.com