Flinders Petrie (talk | contribs) →wikipedia has no opinion, does it?: Content removed to user talk |
|||
(8 intermediate revisions by 4 users not shown) | |||
Line 81: | Line 81: | ||
:::The majority of the reliable sources (or is it all?) say it is fraudulent. Why should Wikipedia say otherwise? As a side-note, I don't think anyone who actually thinks about this topic would ever think that we (Jews) would actually be stupid enough to publish such a document that everyone could read even if we did have the moronic goals expressed in it.... That is why you only have conspiracy sites and other less likable fellows saying otherwise. [[Flinders Petrie|Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie]] [[user_talk:Flinders Petrie|Say Shalom!]] 01:09, 13 May 2011 (UTC) |
:::The majority of the reliable sources (or is it all?) say it is fraudulent. Why should Wikipedia say otherwise? As a side-note, I don't think anyone who actually thinks about this topic would ever think that we (Jews) would actually be stupid enough to publish such a document that everyone could read even if we did have the moronic goals expressed in it.... That is why you only have conspiracy sites and other less likable fellows saying otherwise. [[Flinders Petrie|Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie]] [[user_talk:Flinders Petrie|Say Shalom!]] 01:09, 13 May 2011 (UTC) |
||
== This article is a fraud == |
|||
Having had experience with the persnickety editorial policy of Wikipedia when trying to quote Russ Baker, the investigative reporter, in his assertion that the koch (katch, please) brothers had been stealing oil from poor Native Americans and enjoying a good laugh over it, I'm a bit amazed to discover an article that is unfounded opinion from start to finish. There is <b>nothing</b> in this propagandistic 'defense' of the Protocols as fraudulant that is any less OPINION than what the Protocols proponents themselves present. Truth be told, if the 'appearance' of truth can be any guide, such as the 'appearance of a terroristic act' being prosecutable in the United States Code (e.g. 18), the 'appearance' of truth here is stronger than any personal opinion by any 'authority'. There is no "PROOF" of falsity in this political statement on Wikipedia representing not an explanation but a political agenda. You are afraid of the TABOO, folks. Look in the mirror. |
|||
This article should have simply described the document, mentioned some of the controversies surrounding it, and left it there. Instead, it is a full volley of mud cannons with nary a FACT in the entire doc. This is murdock press, folks. This is not an explicatory overview of an issue, it is a flat political diatribe whose vitriol says more about the actual sense of the Protocols that people hold than their molerat-like slavery to an implanted TABOO. This article completely undermines the 'independent' authoritative image of Wikipedia by presenting a completely unbalanced SHOUTING type argument, loud voices versus hard fact, and absolutely NO BALANCE at all. You guys are as full of crap and hypocracy as fox news. |
|||
Humanzees live in 'identity groups'. These 'groups' are what we describe when we say Japan, or Russia, or America, or even Catholicism (unit multiplexing). We are, in our group identities, groups of heads who all salute the same symbols, respond to the same cues, and generally act in concert as an organised system distinct to its 'units' from all other systems. These groups (systems) are primitive biological organisms whose ONLY external collective behavior is to try to eat the group next to it. That is us, H. hubris. What of such a group that lives internal to other groups? What do THEY eat? And what measures does the 'guest' use to feather their nests? If you study real host/parasite relationships, the parallels are perfect. Convince an organism that what is in its worst interests is the best policy. Why are a people who claim to want Peace involved in wars all over the planet? Money. Gelt! Power. "Give me control of a Nation's money, and I care not who makes its rules." -Rothschild (see 'The Fed'). |
|||
Incidentally, if you would like another view that, while not specifically naming the "protocols", document every assertion in the Protocols with public references such as The NYT, Life Magazine (with pix of the articles!), and many other unimpeachable <b>FACTUAL</b> sources. Bunch of Nazi zealots? No. They are a bunch of very scholarly Rebbes who live in Brooklyn and are absolutely terrified of the zionists and their ... 'plans'. These Rebbes define "Orthodox". They believe. What should <b>I</b> do? Not believe them because they are not PC? Call them liars? Claim they are '''antisemitic'''? (www.jewsagainstzionism.com) You've locked the article so truth is locked out. This is the usual state in this matter. The TABOO insists that I must remain silent with any criticism of an inherently sociopathic plilosophy. You too, I see, since the article is just people who agree, en mass, that the world is flat without any discussion of alternative interpretations. Antisemites are not the only ones who know a good plan when they see one. Very disappointing, Wikipedia, you have failed when you most needed to be TRULY opinion neutral. The level of "proof" here is profoundly lower than most other places on your site. Hmmm. Even here. Sad. Can't even trust Wikipedia! <b>GO IRGUN AMERICA!</b>[[Special:Contributions/Bjornsonw|contribs]]) 19:41, 5 June 2011 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|||
:Lol. Sir, afaik, this article is just going by what the reliable sources say. Too many people think that it's the job of the editor to make sure an article is completely neutral, rather than making it as neutral as possible while still adhering to the views in the sources by their [[WP:WEIGHT|weight]] and avoiding [[WP:OR|original research]]. The fact is that you cannot have any sort of balance in this article because there are no RSs presenting any other side. It is as simple as that. Also, afaik FOX has had no hand in writing this article. =p Another thing people forget is that all Wikipedia editors are just random people adhering to various policies in varying degrees, not any sort of [[WP:WRITERS|editorial board]]. [[User:Flinders Petrie|Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie]] | [[user_talk:Flinders Petrie|Say Shalom!]] 19:54, 5 June 2011 (UTC) |
|||
:What FP said, and I'd add: [[WP:No personal attacks|No personal attacks]] [[User:Sören Koopmann|SK]] ([[User talk:Sören Koopmann|talk]]) 20:52, 5 June 2011 (UTC) |
Revision as of 21:07, 5 June 2011
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed. | ||||||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on March 19, 2006. | ||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||
Current status: Former featured article |
This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
External link to English translation
An IP editor added a link in "External links" section to a translation. I think, in general, that is not a bad idea. But there are a couple of issues: (1) the exact translation (Marsden, etc) is not specified; (2) I don't know if that site is reputable; (3) is the translation accurate? Perhaps the best path forward here is for someone who knows of a reliable site with a validated translation could replace that new link with a more authoritative link? The book Dismantling the big lie: the Protocols of the elders of Zion, published by the Simon Wiesenthal Center, has a full translation in an appendix, but that book is not fully available online (fragments are on Google Books), to my knowledge. --Noleander (talk) 18:49, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
- On a related note: what is the difference between the "External Links" section and its "Notable web resources" sub-section? I propose to merge them into one "External Links" section. --Noleander (talk) 00:42, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
- I have no idea why that section is divided up that way. It doesn't make sense to me, either. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 03:56, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
I was able to find several pdfs etc in a short search - both wiki reliable sites and others. The Protoclos were also used in the early 1900s as an anti-Communist tract ( ie replace the word Jew with Commie and voila you have The Protocols of the Elders of Communism.) It has been added to and subtracted from for over a century. 159.105.80.220 (talk) 13:02, 29 December 2010 (UTC) The underlying text ( leave out Jew,Commie, etc ) shows how a plan for domination would/could/should/must be implemented. Whatever group was doing it could be inserted as the noun. It would be hard to conceive of domination without these steps or hard to not suspect someone who seemed intent on implementation of this plan - damn capitalists,Romans,... Is there an article about the Protocols of the Elders of Communism, or do they not care?159.105.80.220 (talk) 18:51, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
manifestation in the Casino of Berne?
"by the National Front during a political manifestation demonstration in the Casino of Berne" - I think the word demonstration is more common.Geo8rge (talk) 20:32, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
Neutral point of view?
Given the actual content of the document in question, relative to the state of world events, then and now, the actual uncertainty of its ultimate origin (which really begs the question, "Who actually 'borrowed' from whom?), the similarity to other related historical documents, as well as the sheer number and degree of highly charged adjectives used to describe it, one can hardly make the claim that this article is indeed written with a neutral point of view.
Taking all of this into account, it gives the article, as written, the appearance of being more or less an intentional cover-up. Not saying that it is. Just saying that is how it appears. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.10.169.39 (talk) 04:22, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
- It's just saying what the RSs are saying. The only views that go against those sources are usually found in places like Stormfront and conspiracy theory sites. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 06:38, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
- I agree, although I think the article is really disorganized, and doesn't make the case as well as it could. It's on my list -- so many articles, so little time! DoctorJoeE (talk) 04:00, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
- Now that is something that needs to be fixed. It needs to be hammered home that the subject document is fake, and it needs to be done in a proper and organised manner. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 04:15, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
- I think the function of WP is to inform, rather than to persuade. Evidence that would lead the reader to conclude that it is a fake would certainly be appropriate and helpful... as would, hypothetically, any evidence to the contrary for that matter. John2510 (talk) 18:02, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
- Certainly, if there were a reliable source that would testify to the contrary.--Galassi (talk) 18:13, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
- Eh, pretty much the same thing (with proper weight it will crush it any way and follow the rules at the same time). It shouldn't read like a cover up if that is how some will view it. And yeah, I am not sure an RS can be found that says the opposite. At least not right now, maybe in a couple years. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 07:04, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
- Certainly, if there were a reliable source that would testify to the contrary.--Galassi (talk) 18:13, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
- I think the function of WP is to inform, rather than to persuade. Evidence that would lead the reader to conclude that it is a fake would certainly be appropriate and helpful... as would, hypothetically, any evidence to the contrary for that matter. John2510 (talk) 18:02, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Anything in this JPost piece that can help improve the article?
So I just found this article by a retired judge in Israel (I must be sexist, I assumed this person was male until I saw the bio at the end. I should have looked at her name more closely, lol. Ben is son, but the first name ending female) who has spent her golden years researching the Protocols. [1] Their impact and importance, etc.
She has written a rather notable book on it, The Lie that wouldn't Die, and so this will probably be a neat summary of her views (I don't have time atm to read through, but this is preferable to citing pages in a lengthy book that no one might bother to check). I see at least one citation of her book in the refs section.
She is bringing it up because there's been a bit of anti-Jewish sentiment present in the Arab World Protests, and so she is giving her analysis of the book, etc.
Anyone else want to comb through this and see what can/should be put it? Remember though if you're going to pass judgement on whether to actually use a source, please do a careful reading of the whole thing. If my tone seems inconsistent btw, it's because I wasn't sure who the author was when I started writing and have had to edit a few times. =p Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 11:07, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
wikipedia has no opinion, does it?
Why not let up to the reader decide by himself whether the document is fraudulent or not. We can even state: "... is generally considered fraudulent". or "a.b.z" consider this work fraudulent. But I don't think it is up to wikipedia to make such a statement of any work, whatever that is. And by the way, I don't support any of the views of the book. It is just a matter of methodology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.218.97.215 (talk) 22:57, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- Because its fraudulence is a fact, not an opinion. Encyclopedias never say, "The Earth is generally considered to orbit the Sun," do they? While neither you nor I have directly observed the Earth orbiting the Sun from a spaceship situated far enough away to make that observation, there's enough enduring evidence to safely conclude that it's a fact. And there's enough evidence (spelled out in the article) to conclude that the Protocols are fraudulent as well. There is ample precedent for that all through WP -- lots of articles draw a conclusion when there is enough incontrovertible evidence to support it. DoctorJoeE (talk) 00:28, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes. It is a matter of public record that the book is a slightly altered version of a different book published some years earlier that had nothing to do with Jews. Therefore it has been amply demonstrated and is a matter of public record, as well as being manifestly obvious that the book was not written at the time it is purported to have been written, by the people who are said to have written it, with original text it is said to have had. In other words, if someone in the 20th century took Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet and changed the names of the title characters to Fred and Ginger and left everything else the same but now claimed to have written it himself, you don't have to thereafter say on Wikipedia that the story of Fred and Ginger is "generally considered fraudulent" or "is considered by so-and-so to be fraudulent." No. It's a proven fact. The poster above needs to go and read up on Wikipedia policy and how it judges verifiability. You're right, it's not "up to Wikipedia to make such a statement of any work." Wikipedia does not allow original research. It is not original research to say the the Protocols are fraudulent. It is well-established scholarly fact. QuizzicalBee (talk) 00:48, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- The majority of the reliable sources (or is it all?) say it is fraudulent. Why should Wikipedia say otherwise? As a side-note, I don't think anyone who actually thinks about this topic would ever think that we (Jews) would actually be stupid enough to publish such a document that everyone could read even if we did have the moronic goals expressed in it.... That is why you only have conspiracy sites and other less likable fellows saying otherwise. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 01:09, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
This article is a fraud
Having had experience with the persnickety editorial policy of Wikipedia when trying to quote Russ Baker, the investigative reporter, in his assertion that the koch (katch, please) brothers had been stealing oil from poor Native Americans and enjoying a good laugh over it, I'm a bit amazed to discover an article that is unfounded opinion from start to finish. There is nothing in this propagandistic 'defense' of the Protocols as fraudulant that is any less OPINION than what the Protocols proponents themselves present. Truth be told, if the 'appearance' of truth can be any guide, such as the 'appearance of a terroristic act' being prosecutable in the United States Code (e.g. 18), the 'appearance' of truth here is stronger than any personal opinion by any 'authority'. There is no "PROOF" of falsity in this political statement on Wikipedia representing not an explanation but a political agenda. You are afraid of the TABOO, folks. Look in the mirror.
This article should have simply described the document, mentioned some of the controversies surrounding it, and left it there. Instead, it is a full volley of mud cannons with nary a FACT in the entire doc. This is murdock press, folks. This is not an explicatory overview of an issue, it is a flat political diatribe whose vitriol says more about the actual sense of the Protocols that people hold than their molerat-like slavery to an implanted TABOO. This article completely undermines the 'independent' authoritative image of Wikipedia by presenting a completely unbalanced SHOUTING type argument, loud voices versus hard fact, and absolutely NO BALANCE at all. You guys are as full of crap and hypocracy as fox news.
Humanzees live in 'identity groups'. These 'groups' are what we describe when we say Japan, or Russia, or America, or even Catholicism (unit multiplexing). We are, in our group identities, groups of heads who all salute the same symbols, respond to the same cues, and generally act in concert as an organised system distinct to its 'units' from all other systems. These groups (systems) are primitive biological organisms whose ONLY external collective behavior is to try to eat the group next to it. That is us, H. hubris. What of such a group that lives internal to other groups? What do THEY eat? And what measures does the 'guest' use to feather their nests? If you study real host/parasite relationships, the parallels are perfect. Convince an organism that what is in its worst interests is the best policy. Why are a people who claim to want Peace involved in wars all over the planet? Money. Gelt! Power. "Give me control of a Nation's money, and I care not who makes its rules." -Rothschild (see 'The Fed').
Incidentally, if you would like another view that, while not specifically naming the "protocols", document every assertion in the Protocols with public references such as The NYT, Life Magazine (with pix of the articles!), and many other unimpeachable FACTUAL sources. Bunch of Nazi zealots? No. They are a bunch of very scholarly Rebbes who live in Brooklyn and are absolutely terrified of the zionists and their ... 'plans'. These Rebbes define "Orthodox". They believe. What should I do? Not believe them because they are not PC? Call them liars? Claim they are antisemitic? (www.jewsagainstzionism.com) You've locked the article so truth is locked out. This is the usual state in this matter. The TABOO insists that I must remain silent with any criticism of an inherently sociopathic plilosophy. You too, I see, since the article is just people who agree, en mass, that the world is flat without any discussion of alternative interpretations. Antisemites are not the only ones who know a good plan when they see one. Very disappointing, Wikipedia, you have failed when you most needed to be TRULY opinion neutral. The level of "proof" here is profoundly lower than most other places on your site. Hmmm. Even here. Sad. Can't even trust Wikipedia! GO IRGUN AMERICA!contribs) 19:41, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
- Lol. Sir, afaik, this article is just going by what the reliable sources say. Too many people think that it's the job of the editor to make sure an article is completely neutral, rather than making it as neutral as possible while still adhering to the views in the sources by their weight and avoiding original research. The fact is that you cannot have any sort of balance in this article because there are no RSs presenting any other side. It is as simple as that. Also, afaik FOX has had no hand in writing this article. =p Another thing people forget is that all Wikipedia editors are just random people adhering to various policies in varying degrees, not any sort of editorial board. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 19:54, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
- What FP said, and I'd add: No personal attacks SK (talk) 20:52, 5 June 2011 (UTC)