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:::But Dr. William Chesire Jr., the neurologist who volunteers for the state abuse team, said in his affidavit that he visited with Schiavo for 90 minutes March 1 and did not agree that she was in a vegetative state. (diagnosis "minimally conscious state,") Cheshire sees patients at the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville and teaches at Trinity International University, '''a Christian institution'''. Cheshire, also trained in bioethics, graduated from and is an adjunct professor at Trinity University, and has written opinion articles on stem-cell research and other scientific debates '''espousing a conservative Christian viewpoint'''. |
:::But Dr. William Chesire Jr., the neurologist who volunteers for the state abuse team, said in his affidavit that he visited with Schiavo for 90 minutes March 1 and did not agree that she was in a vegetative state. (diagnosis "minimally conscious state,") Cheshire sees patients at the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville and teaches at Trinity International University, '''a Christian institution'''. Cheshire, also trained in bioethics, graduated from and is an adjunct professor at Trinity University, and has written opinion articles on stem-cell research and other scientific debates '''espousing a conservative Christian viewpoint'''. |
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::::Well, Dr. Cheshire is actually an Episcopalian, which is not normally considered a "conservative" denomination. But even if he were a fundamentalist, would it matter? Shall we add to the article the religious affiliations of all the doctors and lawyers involved in this case? |
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::::I have the distinct impression that some people here think that being a Christian calls into question a person's judgment or integrity. I'd like to be proven wrong about that. [[User:NCdave|NCdave]] 09:52, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 09:52, 8 April 2005
To relieve page bloating:
- Archive One: bit-by-bit changes
- Archive Two: Michael estranged?, Greer's affiliations,
- Archive Three: POV, Michael as cause?, external links
- Archive Four: Baden's assessment, Euthanasia vs Right-to-die, POV, George Greer, why remove tube, Catholic-influenced decision?, conditon wording, open adultery statute, $10M offer, feeling pain, potential abuse, first names, external link quality
- Archive Five: NCDave conduct, link cleanup, biography request, S686 text, Sun Hudson, Ms./Mrs.
- Archive Six: court decisions, legal implications, family members' character, wording of condition, pundits, S686 vote, Iraq, Sun Hudson
- Archive Seven: Ms. or Mrs., photo usage, initial collapse, insurance, feeding tube, pronunciation, legal costs
- Archive Eight: cause of collapse, Larry King transcript, Hammesfahr's credentials, Michael's role, nurse's affidavit, the Vaitcan, page protection
- Archive Nine: photo inclusion, alleged GOP memo, mentioning the money, bulimia as cause, pro-life/anti-abotion, role of the church
- Archive Ten: feeling pain, cleanup of additions, proposed addition of Lieberman analysis and vocalizations
- Archive Eleven: poll on terminology ("pro-life" or other), including public opinion, wording on Mr. Schiavo's role, overlinking
- Archive Twelve: sources for external links, date correction, "Culture of Life"/"Culture of Death", ABC poll, CAT Scans
- Archive Thirteen: all but created
Please Use This Talk Page Correctly
From Wikipedia:Wikiquette
- Wikipedia articles are supposed to represent all views (more at NPOV). The Talk pages are not a place to debate which views are right or wrong or better. If you want to do that, there are venues such as Usenet, public weblogs and other wikis.
- You can always take a discussion to e-mail or to your user page if it's not essential to the article.
- Sign and date your posts to talk pages (not articles!).
Please bear these items in mind when posting to this talk page. This article is controversial and somewhat high traffic. Mis/overuse of the talk page makes it difficult for this page to serve its intended purpose.
Fox1 11:43, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- And remember, when making assertions concerning Mrs. Schiavo herself and her condition. You (almost certainly) do (did) not know her personally, and you (almost certainly) have not examined her in person, and you (very likely -- tell us if it's otherwise :-) are not a physician. So you are working on second-hand, third-hand, or worse reportage. Temper your assertions accordingly.
--Baylink 19:23, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Disability rights activism
Why was my mention of disability rights activism around this case removed? Rosemary Amey 12:34, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- For the same reason that my mention of judicial activism was removed, Rosemary. For the same reason that my link to Dr. Cheshire's report was removed. For the same reason that mention of Judge Greer's order denying Terri food and water by natural means was removed. For the same reason that even your question here about it was removed from the Discussion page (I've just now restored it).
- Because it was inconsistent with the M.Schiavo/G.Felos/G.Greer POV. NCdave 15:10, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Straw poll: Ms. vs. Mrs.
Can we once and for all come to a consensus about whether or not we're going to call Terri Schiavo "Ms. Schiavo" or "Mrs. Schiavo" in any reference where "Schiavo" alone is ambigious? We've gone back and forth between Ms. and Mrs. over the course of several days and now the article appears to be in some nether land where some of the references are to "Ms." and some to "Mrs." Unprofessional to say the least. I'm starting here a straw poll on the subject. Moncrief 02:44, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)
Question: Which title should be used in front of "Schiavo" in reference to Terri Schiavo when it is not clear from context if "Schiavo" refers to Terri Schiavo or Michael Schiavo? Ms. or Mrs.?
Ms.
- Personally, I strongly advocate for "Ms." It's the standard term used in this nation's media outlets and has been for a few decades now. But if the vote is for "Mrs." I'll accept it. Let's just pick one! Moncrief 02:26, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)
- I would support Ms. as well; it's pretty much standard, for dealing with either married or unmarried women, and would be useful and neutral in this case. Meelar (talk) 02:27, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)
- I agree that Ms. is standard - I won't complain if it's Mrs. I agree with everyone else - pick one and stick with it! Tonyr1988 03:08, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)
- Not only is Ms. standard, it's also a bit more NPOV. It can imply whatever you want it to imply. I know certain people don't view Terri Schiavo as being "traditionally" married to Michael (because he's an "adulterer"), this might serve to antagonize them a little less to boot, and it doesn't imply she's not married. Good times all around. Professor Ninja 06:50, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Encyclopedic standard. Flyers13 04:33, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)Withdrawn. Every style guide I could find says first and last name on first reference, then last name only on further reference; first and last name as necessary for disambiguation. Flyers13 06:11, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)- Ms. is pretty much the standard. Doesn't the Manual of Style address this? --Calton | Talk 04:44, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Only that the last name only should be used in subsequent references. Doing so in this article would require significantly re-writing several sentences. If anyone sufficiently talented is able to rewrite these sentences successfully, I'd be in support of that. See: Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(biographies)#Subsequent_uses_of_names Moncrief 05:00, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
Mrs.
- My vote would be for Mrs. but I have no objection for Ms. What's important is that it is consistent throughout the article. Go for it! --AStanhope 02:34, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Search CNN.com for "Ms. Schiavo" = 3 hits; search it for "Mrs. Schiavo" = 15 hits. I personally think "Mrs." is better because I've been raised to believe this is the title for a married woman, and using "Ms." would imply she's no longer married. Maybe I'm antiquated in my usage of it though. - Brian Kendig 03:12, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I'm personally for Mrs. Mike H 06:12, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)
- It's her married name so it has to be Mrs. Dbiv 09:48, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Duh. Lethe | Talk 22:27, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)
- Mrs. because she is married. --Vik Reykja ♬ 00:04, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- As far as I know, Terri was married under Christian religious customs, and was called Mrs. in life. If the Manual of Style says to call all women "Ms.", then the Manual of Style does not understand English; Mrs. is the valid and correct form of address for a married woman. Again, as far as I know, Terri was never divorced. -Kasreyn
- It seems to me that there is some misunderstanding about the way in which Ms. has been used since the 1970s. Using "Ms." does not imply that a woman is unmarried; it is merely a neutral title for a woman that gives no indication of her marital status either way (as is the case with "Mr." for men). As you'll see in the Wikipedia article for Ms., it's been adopted as the standard by major newspapers including (the article doesn't mention this) the New York Times. 63.196.5.21 20:08, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- The family says Terri's a traditional Roman Catholic. From this I would conclude "Mrs." is correct (...but I do not speak for them.)User:REWinn 20:10, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what being Catholic has to do with this matter. If they were traditional Protestants, would they be okay with "Ms," according to you? 63.196.5.21 23:43, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- She's married and Mrs. is used. Also that's how Mr. Shiavo's husband refers to her. Saopaulo1 08:22, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
- People are entitled, absent fraudulent intent, to be called whatever they wish to be called. She is still marries, to the extent that she can be, and as someone else pointed out, that's what her husband calls her. I'm not fond of style guides that impose on people things which they don't want to be called... --Baylink 19:10, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Since they were neither divorced nor separated, "Mrs." is appropriate. bernlin2000 ∞ 16:07, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)
- "Mrs." is most appropriate, as she was married right up until her death. Also, her being married was central to the dispute. Were she not married, there would not have been such a conflict and few people would know who she was. --Blackcats 07:51, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Other
- Avoid titles altogether - the context makes it clear which Schiavo is being referred to. Neutralitytalk 03:17, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)
- I think there is definite consensus that she should be referred to as "Schiavo" in all cases where the context is clear that it's about her, but there are many places in the article where the context is not clear. For example, from the first paragraph:
- "Mrs. Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, and her siblings, dispute Mr. Schiavo's position, holding that Terri is "responsive" and in no discomfort..." would be fairly ambigious without titles, and that's not even the best example of such ambiguity in the article. I guess one "Other" option, though, would be to write out either party's full name ("Terri Schiavo") wherever there is ambiguity? Moncrief 03:25, Mar 27, 2005 (UTC)
- 3. Call her Terri. That's her name. You could say "Mrs. Schiavo," but that suggests that she is married, which is only technically true, since her estranged husband is a serial adulterer who has been living with various girlfriends on and off for 13 years, and has two children with the woman that his is currently living with in open adultery. NCdave 19:02, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- 4. Call her Schaivo or Terri Schiavo. --L33tminion | (talk) 03:05, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
- The problem with calling her just "Schiavo" is that it is ambiguous: there are multiple actors in this drama with that surname. Calling her "Terri Schiavo" is fine, but often longer than necessary. NCdave 05:07, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- First and last name on first reference, then last name only; first and last if necessary for disambiguation. Flyers13 06:13, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Call her Terri Schiavo, because Schiavo can be confused with her husband and Mrs. or Ms. Schiavo does not seem proper.
- Agree with User:Flyers13. JYolkowski 03:17, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- "Ms. " is a replacement for BOTH "Miss" and "Mrs." and has been in common use since the '70s. Most news organizations use "Ms." as a matter of course but will use "Mrs." is specifically requested to do so by the person in question. IOW "Ms. Schiavo" is perfectly correct regardless of her marital status (hence the appeal)
This is a minor issue as far as the Terri Schiavo case is concerned, but I would appreciate if we didn't incorrectly defame Dr. William Hammesfahr. The last paragraph of the Initial Medical Crisis page has been saying that Dr. Hammesfahr was disciplined for "substandard care" and for a "dubious treatment". The truth is, he was not disciplined for either. Please read the associated PDF carefully (I know, it's 90+ pages, but you have to at least read the findings of fact to be able to correctly edit that section). In the PDF, the findings of fact report that there was no finding of fault for substandard care, and no finding of fault for dubious treatment. There was simply a finding of fault for overbilling, and his discipline was that another physician should review half of his medical records every month to ensure compliance with proper billing standards. So he was ACCUSED of substandard care, but found not guilty. This page should not reflect this as a finding of fault, because it was not. This page shouldn't even report it as an accusation, because that accusation was found to be incorrect by the reviewing officials, and an incorrect accusation is not relevant to this page's topic. — Cortonin | Talk 03:36, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC) (Update) The specific pages of the PDF are 38, 40, and 41. The pages in the 60's which are referenced elsewhere in this talk are simply the filing of a lawyer on one side, and are not the findings of fact, which are concluded on page 41. — Cortonin | Talk 03:46, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Is this the Dr. Hammesfahr who claimed to have been nominated for a Nobel?
- From the documents, he claimed he was nominated because Rep. Bilirakis DID file a nomination, it's just that the person who nominated was not authorized to do so under the Nobel Prize rules, and so it of course was not accepted as a nomination. So it would appear he's guilty of not knowing how the Nobel Prize system works. These are the sorts of things that only come up about a person when large portions of the public are looking for ways to discredit the person. It's somewhat sad, really. We at Wikipedia should try to avoid being a part of the defamation circus by sticking more to the issues. — Cortonin | Talk 03:52, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Agreed, and Bilirakis is qualified to nominate for the Peace Prize -- but not the Prize for Medicine. So it was probably an honest mistake on both their parts. OTOH, that was six years ago, so Hammesfahr should have have figured it out and corrected his web site by now. NCdave 04:32, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Oops, my bad. It appears that Hammesfahr's Nobel nomination was vaild. See below. NCdave 20:36, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- However, it is reflective of blatant POV bias to include the criticism of Hammesfahr and delete the even more damning criticism of Cranford. NCdave 04:32, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Cortonin, what you say is accurate - the nomination was not valid. But your conclusion is surprising. If the nomination is not valid, then why should Wikipedia continue to propogate the myth that he is Nobel Prize nominee? It is relevant because it calls into question credibility, honesty and integrity, all qualities that patients would hope a doctor has. The Nobel Prize claim has been repeated to death on Fox, MSNBC and CNN, and they are all inaccurate. Should Wikipedia support this inaccuracy? The same issue came up on another article when someone claimed he was "nominated for a Pulitzer Prize." Er, well anyone can be nominated. Just download the form, fill it out, put a postage stamp on it, mail it, and voila - "nominated" but not properly nominated. [1] It's meaningless, and Wikipedia should not be afraid to call out this type of mischaracterization. Fuzheado | Talk 04:17, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I wouldn't suggest that Wikipedia should promote the inaccuracy, but you have to be careful when something off-topic is brought up about a person simply to dismiss it. I like to avoid having ad hominems strewn throughout wiki. I reworded the nobel prize claim section slightly to try to improve precision and make it sound less like a definitive accusation of intentional deception, and more like the claim is being made but it's simply incorrect. — Cortonin | Talk 15:42, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- This was my mistake. I admit that I tried to read the article backwards to get to the conclusion first. I will try to be more careful in the future. Macdougal 04:48, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, you'd think after all this time, he'd quit trying to claim that he was nominated for the Nobel. It's bogus. It's true that he was nominated in an invalid process, but to keep repeating that without clearing up that the nomination is bogus is pretty cheesy. RickK 06:17, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
Here's a brief excerpt from the transcript of the March 21, 2005 edition of Fox News' Hannity & Colmes:
- HANNITY: Doctor, wait a minute. I've got to get this straight here. You were nominated to get a Nobel Peace Prize in this very work. Are you saying that this woman could be rehabilitated?
- HAMMESFAHR: Absolutely.
Note the name of the award. -66.188.220.252
- Well, his web site says "Medicine," not "Peace." He probably didn't pay close enough attention to what Hannity said. Anyhow, I've emailed him and politely pointed out that the fellow who nominated him wasn't qualified to do so, and I included the link to prove it (http://www.hnionline.com/nobel_prize_nomination.htm), and asked him to correct the erroneous information on his web site. I'll consider it a test of his integrity to see whether or not he does so.
- BTW, please sign your comments, 66.188.220.252. (I added it for you this time.) NCdave 23:31, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Actually, his website, on the nomination itself, says "Nobel Peace Prize in Medicine"[2]. The guy's obviously full of crap. After all, falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus, right NCdave? Professor Ninja 04:18, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
- No, that's what the congressman's letter says, a copy of which is reproduced on the website. Hammasfahr didn't write that. The congressman was obviously confused. But let's see whether Hammesfahr corrects it.
- But the real charlatan involved in this case is Dr. Ronald E. Cranford. He was Felos's star witness, the guy who convinced Judge Greer that Terri was in a PVS, when she plainly is not. He is a euthanasia zealot, from the extreme fringe of the Right-To-Die movement, which advocates involuntary euthanasia even for conscious patients.
- Cranford has a special gift for the Big Lie, such as when he said, "there isn't a reputable, credible neurologist in the world who won't find her in a vegetative state." (In fact, most neurologists who have examined the case and offered an opinion scoff at that diagnosis.[3])
- Cranford even testified that a brain damaged California man named Robert Wendland should be dehydrated to death, even though Wendland could toss and catch a ball, could understand simple sentences and respond appropriately, and could even drive an electric wheelchair up and down hospital corridors. NCdave 07:17, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Update: I've just received an email reply from Dr. Hammesfahr; here it is:
Thanks for your thoughts. However, in 1998 and 1999 the criteria were different, and a parliamentarian or congressional nomination was acceptable. It was not by itself sufficient, as an individual had to be published, but at that time, my publication was listed on the Nobel site's web page. I still have a copy of their listing of my publication on my site. thanks for the thoughts Dr. H
So, it appears that Dr. Hammesfahr's Nobel nomination was legitimate, after all. NCdave 20:36, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Umm...is the word of someone who is accused of lying adequate evidence that they were not? (I.e., can you link to the criteria?) Guettarda 20:46, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Well, it is at least certainly plausible. I've asked him for the documentation. Let's see what he comes up with.
- I've also emailed the Nobel Foundation, and asked them what the nomination process was and who the qualified nominators were back in January, 1999.
- NCdave 21:43, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Ok, thanks. Guettarda 21:45, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Not surprisingly, this is an absolute lie. From the Nominations section in the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine section of the Nobel Institute
- The timetable for the prize has remained more or less the same since 1901. Thus, in September the year before the prize is to be awarded, confidential, personal invitations to nominate candidates for the prize are sent to 2500-3000 scientists who are members of medical faculties or academies outside Scandinavia. Scientists are invited according to a rotating system. Previous Nobel Laureates in Physiology or Medicine and professors at medical faculties in the Nordic countries have the right to nominate every year. Nominations are made on special forms sent only to those who are formally invited to nominate. The Nobel Committee receives many informal letters with invalid nominations. These are not included among the documents examined by the Nobel Committee.
- Notice that this is the process followed since 1901 and that only select scientists outside Scnadinavia, former Naubel Laureates in Physiology or Medicine, and any medical faculty member in Scandinavia can nominate. Hope that helps clarify anybody bamboozled by NCdave's campaign of misinformation and lies. Professor Ninja 00:40, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
- Not surprisingly, this is an absolute lie. From the Nominations section in the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine section of the Nobel Institute
- It was highly disingenuous of him to make that claim in the e-mail to Dave, since George Felos pointed out this very thing at trial. Hammesfahr said he would look into it then, as if he didn't know already, since the congressman himself had asked him to stop using the letter. He even had the audacity on the John and Ken show last week to pretended to be surprised to hear the suggestion congressman wasn't qualified to nominate anyone for such an honor.
- That's assuming NCdave didn't just lie about it in the first place though. Why would he email a Dr. he desperately wants everybody to believe when he could just check the Nobel site (it took me like 30 seconds)? Why, do get an email reply of course! That way it'll put the whole shenanigans to rest and Dr. Hammesfahr will become an expert. Pfft. Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus, as "they" say, Dave. Professor Ninja 07:17, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
POV Dispute
The article has many factual problems. Including: the case has now been tried twice by both a Federal District Court and a Federal Appeals Court.
Point of View Issues
- The article practically points a finger at Justice Kennedy for doing nothing; however, it is rare for a Justice to take action like this into his or her own hands. Even if he did, it would only be a temporary injunction pending a review for Cert by the Court. If Cert was denied, the injunction would be void. If Cert was granted, then the case would be heard, and the injunction would be valid until an opinion.
- The decision of the Court to not hear the case is not approval of the lower Court's decision. The Supreme Court is simply denying to grant Cert to hear the case, thus there is no reason for Justice Kennedy to give a temporary injunction. This ruling does not in any way grant approval to the 11th Circuit.
- All orders like this are one-sentence. Check all orders from the Supreme Court granting or denying stays of execution. They are just one sentence orders granting or denying the stay pending a review for Writ of Cert.
- Agreed, 165.123.154.60, this article is riddled with factual errors and severe POV bias. Also, thanks for the good info on SCOTUS procedures.
- But please sign your messages. You can sign by adding four tilde ("~") characters to the end; they will be translated into your ID or IP and the date/time. NCdave 00:10, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Can you guys cite some specific lines that need to be changed? I don't see why we can't reach an agreement if these are the only complaints. I think it would be acceptable to make the page a little more wishywashy on some subjects if it will bring agreementGmaxwell 04:13, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I note that the Supreme Court employs a 'rule of four' - they will hear any case that four Justices think is important enough to be heard. Clearly that has not happened with this case. -- 8^D BDAbramsongab 05:10, 2005 Mar 29 (UTC)
- This article is hopelessly POV.
I could not agree more with NCdave. Unfortunately, some of us can't sit around all day and revert everything that disagrees with our opinion like some here. So whatever. Wikipedia says whatever the people with the most time to waste want it to say. 24.245.12.39 03:10, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Make some specific points... lets discuss them. I'm interested in seeing the article be as neutral as possible, and if we reach some agreement, I'll help make sure that neutrality is preserved. As it stands I think it looks pretty neutral, but I likely have a differing perspective from you.Gmaxwell 04:13, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- You are surely joking, right?? Well, okay, I'm going to start at the top, and list problems sentence by sentence, until I get tired:
- Photos: the M.Schiavo partisans keep deleting the photo of Terri in the hospital bed, smiling at her her mom.
- Paragrah #1:
- The first sentence is NPOV and accurate.
- The second sentence is POV questionable (the cause is a subject of speculation, the hospital reached no conclusion).
- The third sentence is factually incorrect and POV-biased (she wasn't deprived of life support, she was deprived of nutrition and hydration, and specifically forbidden to receive food and water by mouth).
- Paragrah #2:
- The first sentence is factually incorrect and POV-biased (you can't be "hospitalized" in anything other than a hospital).
- The second sentence is POV biased and deceptive via a half-truth (the feeding tube was removed, but she was also forbidden from receiving food and water by mouth).
- The third sentence is factually incorrect and POV-biased (it isn't the removal of the feeding tube that is killing her, since it is known that she could eat Jell-O and take Holy Communion by mouth, could certainly also eat other sluries and possibly liquids by mouth).
- Paragrah #3:
- The first sentence is POV biased and deceptive via a half-truth (he's her estranged husband, whom she was preparing to divorce at the time of her injury 15 years ago, and who has been living in open adultery with other women for 13 years, and has two children by the woman he calls his "fiancee," and he has claimed to know that she would wish to die for less than half of that 15 year period).
- The second sentence is accurate, but reflects POV bias by stating that Terri's parents are Catholics but not mentioning that Terri is too.
- The third sentence is almost NPOV (only one person, Judge Greer, has actually ruled on the issues of fact in the case).
- The fourth sentence is severely POV-biased (the Congress and the Florida legislature, acting as institutions, not merely "many Republicans and several Democrats," sided with Terri, as did a great many religous and disabilities activist organizations -- which were in this sentence until M.Schiavo partisans deleted them).
- The fifth sentence is factually inaccurate and POV-biased (makes it sound like there is some organization other than the ACLU and Hemlock who are sideing with M.Schaivo, and deceptively makes it sound like the legislative support for his side of the case was equal to the support for Terri; in fact, in the US House the vote was about 3-to-1, and in the Senate it passed with no dissent).
- etc..
- I could go on, but this is tedious. So I'll just quote these first three paragraphs from the article here and then quit for now (so that this list of problems will make sense when the paragraphs have changed). Here are the (awful) first three paragraphs:
- Theresa Marie Schiavo (born December 3, 1963), commonly known as Terri Schiavo (pronounced SHY-vo), is an American woman from St. Petersburg, Florida, the daughter of Robert and Mary Schindler and wife of Michael Schiavo. On February 25, 1990, she suffered severe brain damage caused by a cardiac arrest, believed to be brought on by bulimia. The efforts of Schiavo's husband to withhold life support have prompted a fierce debate over bioethics, euthanasia, legal guardianship, federalism, and civil rights, as well an active countereffort to keep her alive [4] [5].
- Schiavo is hospitalized at the Hospice of the Florida Suncoast in Pinellas Park, in the Tampa Bay area. On March 18, 2005, her gastric feeding tube was removed under court order. The removal of the feeding tube will result in Schiavo's death by dehydration.
- Michael Schiavo, her husband and legal guardian, contends that he is carrying out his wife's wishes not to be kept alive in her present state. Mrs. Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, who are both practicing Catholics, and her siblings, dispute Mr. Schiavo's position. The courts have all ruled in favor of Mr. Schiavo thus far, but her parents have vigorously appealed the decisions. Vatican officials, U.S. President George W. Bush, Florida Governor Jeb Bush, many Republicans, and several Democrats in the Florida Legislature and U.S. Congress have sided with Mrs. Schiavo's parents. Other groups and individuals, including the American Civil Liberties Union, many Democratic and several Republican legislators, have expressed support for the position of Michael Schiavo.
- It's my bedtime. I'd be here all night if I tried to enumerate the inaccuracies and POV problems in this article. I've tried to fix 'em in the past, but the M.Schiavo partisans here outnumber those few of us who want an accurate, NPOV article, and they just keep deleting the information I add. NCdave 08:21, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I'll clarify this in a wee bit after I get some sleep, I haven't the strength to argue this blowhard and correct his gross inaccuracies constantly. Suffice it to say, NCdave, you ruin the good points you do make by making repeatedly discredited claims. I'd love for you to edit the article in a sane and sensible way, but injecting lies into it is abnormal. If you can stop screaming "partisans" for a moment and list some facts to be checked over (without resorting to biased sites, for the love of God) I'm sure people would be willing to put the truth in the article. Not what you want the truth to be, the truth. Professor Ninja 09:14, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
- First, let's all remember not to make personal attacks. Period.
- Second, thank you, NCdave for providing a fairly concise (was it necessary to reproduce 3 paragraphs of the article in the talk page?) listing of some of your issues. That goes a lot farther towards reaching middle ground than 150 lines of debate over motivations. My reactions.
- One of your repeated gripes, at least in the section you excerpted, is that the method of ending her life is described as removal of life support, and makes no mention of the blocking of sustenance from sources other than the tube, correct? The problem I see there is that the feeding tube arguably qualifies as life support. Even if it doesn't qualify, heavily commenting every mention of the tube will become unwieldy, and give a very obvious tone to each sentence.
- So don't mention the tube. Greer didn't. His order was that she be deprived of food and hydration. Period. His follow-up order was specifically that she be deprived of food and hydration by natural means. NCdave 22:41, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Greer did deny Terri the chance to be fed by mouth. The .pdf of his actual order denying this is on terrisfight.org. I've read it. Terri was denied food and water by any means whatsoever by Greer. And, in anticipation of the "they can't do that!" reaction everyone gives, yes, they can. They did it to Marjorie Nighbert (google her) also.
- I honestly don't know what to do about the pictures, I've considered that a topic I hoped I could avoid since I first saw the page. Could we possibly add the smiling, responsive-appearing image further down, with discussion on interpretations, maybe with similar discussion on the video samples and opinions on their editting?
- Well, I think that "before" and "current" photos are both relevant, but the current one is more so. But the worst thing about the current photos is that the caption on the second picture is a flat-out lie. NCdave 22:41, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Why not add the one Michael approved back in 1991 that showed him & Terri in the hospital for equal time?
- The hospitalization bit seems like splitting hairs, especially since it is arguable that the hospice, as a facility providing medical care or therapy, falls within the definition "hospital." Why is this important? The only thing I can think of is that perhaps you think the term "hospitalized" gives unwarranted credit to the care being given to the patient? -Fox1
- Exactly. Most hospice care is done in private homes. It is not hospital-level care. Terri has not been in a hospital in many years. You wouldn't say that someone was "hospitalized" in a nursing home, nor should you say that she is "hospitalized" in a hospice.
- Plus, since legitimate hospices won't accept patients unless they are terminal with an expected lifespan of 6 months or less, saying that someone is in hospice hs implications that are untrue in Terri's case. Terri's condition was not terminal, yet Michael & Felos have had her cooped up in there for five years. So along with the mention that she is in hospice, there should also be a mention that her condition is not terminal, for clarification. NCdave 22:41, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I'm somewhat amenable to the idea of using a term other than hospitalized, but I think you get a little carried away after that. We're dealing with an intro here, detailed discussion belongs in the body of the article. You're building up layers of implication here that I think are unneccesary; you're assuming that the word hospice will encourage the reader to think "terminal," which is debatable,
- Whee, nothing like an NCdave fantasy to wake me up faster than coffee. Hospital and hospice share the same latin roots, hospes hospit-. Hospitalized is the proper term for lodging somebody in a hospice (even if that hospice is, say, a lodging facility and not a palliative care centre, hence the British predisposition towards using "hospital" as a term for charity). Contrary to NCdave's claims, most (in fact, no) hospice care is not done in private homes. Palliative care may be done in private homes, but hospice care must be provided by a hospice, or else, not surprisingly, it is not hospice care. It may be private palliative nursing, but it is not hospice care. I think you should pay me to be your professional fact checker, NCdave. Well, again, just so long as nobody's bamboozled into believing it. Professor Ninja 12:43, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
Hospices are supposed to accept ONLY terminally-ill patients, likely to die within 6 months. Their mission is to "neither hasten nor prolong" life--kind of ironic, then, that this is a scene of pulling Terri's feeding tube? Note that PVS is NOT a terminal illness--though most PVS patients die in their first year (76%), most of these are due to the actual injury that caused the PVS. After the first year, the life expectany is 9.9 years, with a maximum (as of 1990) record of 37 years. Most PVS patients die from pneumonia or bedsores (i.e. lack of good care), not PVS. PVS is simply a condition or disability, and except for the deterioration of the cerebral cortext, there is no "wasting" or "progressive decline" as with "terminal" illnesses (i.e., cancer). This is not even a "condition" like diabetes, that is terminal if unregulated, but regulated can be managed. No, PVS patients don't need "regulation," they just need a feeding tube, and someone to move them to prevent bedsores. Whether the quality of life is worth living is another issue. Note that Terri is really a victim of George Felos's pro-death campaign. Not NPOV to you? Well think of this: George Felos represents himself that way. Just check out his book at amazon.com, "Litigation as Spiritual Practice." He believes it is his duty to reunite bodies on Earth with souls in Heaven. It is a shame that society is allowing one man to impose his will on this case.
- Felos' account of talking with PVS patients' souls and such is bothersome as hell. He seems as bent as the Right to Lifers, just in the other direction. Evangelical Euthanasia?
and you want that immediately disclaimed, but it's not untrue that the condition is terminal, it's contested.... and suddenly, we have a 96kb intro, and nothing for the body of the article. We need to stick to verified facts in the intro, and some people may have to live with the hint of an implication of something they don't like.
- Fox1 06:58, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Using the term 'estranged' seems like obvious POV to me. They have not been shown to be legally separated, estranged or otherwise anything less than a legal married couple. Until such time as one of those events occurs, the absolute most that would be NPOV would be inclusion of some of the claims made about the past or present state of their marriage further down, certainly outside the intro. As far as your oft-stated points about girlfriends, adultery, etc, I fail to see how it's relevant until such time as it affects the legal status of their union. Perhaps it has the potential to, I won't say that's untrue, but until it does, it's not anything to base such strong initial labeling on. -Fox1
- No, it is POV-bias and deceptive to call him her plain "husband," when he's engaged to marry another woman, with whom he has lived for almost a deacade, and with whom he already has two children. Saying "estranged" is the most concise way to avoid greatly deceiving the reader. The relevance is w/r/t his fitness to be her guardian. NCdave 22:41, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- This is where I start to lose my empathy for your point of view here... it doesn't seem like you have factual counters to the Schiavos' current and continuous legal status as a legitimately married couple, you just don't like that your agenda is not represented in all mentions of that status. They are married, that is an undisputable legal fact, immediately including reasons why you believe it should not be legitimate, in the intro, without taking the time to discuss the back-and-forth of it is POV, pure and simple. This is one of the few points on which I can't imagine making any compromises, I think you're just plain incorrect.
- Fox1 06:58, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I'm with Fox1 on this one. "Estranged" is an emotionally laden word that indicates that the relationship between the two had broken down in a recognisable way (eg evidence that the two were separated before the accident). The simple fact is that, in a legal sense, the Husband is still the legal guardian. Therefore there is no estrangement. If they were estranged he wouldn't be the legal guardian. One Salient Oversight 08:56, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Indeed. Estranged has no legal meaning, husband does. Furthermore, you may note that being engaged to another person does not invalidate your marriage, NCdave. An engagement has no legal binding (beyond maybe fraud, but since Michael's bunk-mate's fully aware of the situation with Terri, that's moot.) Professor Ninja 12:51, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
- No, it is POV-bias and deceptive to call him her plain "husband," when he's engaged to marry another woman, with whom he has lived for almost a deacade, and with whom he already has two children. Saying "estranged" is the most concise way to avoid greatly deceiving the reader. The relevance is w/r/t his fitness to be her guardian. NCdave 22:41, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- The bit about Terri Schiavo needing to be referenced as a devout catholic in the intro seems sketchy to me, since she is currently unable for comment as to what her present beliefs are. Labeling her directly as such in the intro seems like a leading statement, insinuating that she would choose only actions commensurate with that status, I don't believe we have any way of verifying that. Fox1 09:40, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- It doesn't have to say "devout," and IMO that term reflects someone's judgement, anyhow (how devout does someone have to be to be called "devout?") But it is important to note that Terri and her parentss are all RC. NCdave 22:41, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- No, not really. Terri's parents are wholly irrelevant to Terri's religion, and Terri having sacraments at some point doesn't make her a devout (practicing, if you prefer) Roman Catholic. I'll be willing to compromise with you on this if you're willing to go through all the biographical articles on wikipedia and add in the birth religion and any conversions and rejections the person may have had. Unless you're, say, Martin Luther, Pope John Paul II, Henry VIII, or, I dunno, unless your religion matters to the affairs concerning you, instead of somebody claiming it does, it doesn't really belong in the article. Professor Ninja 12:51, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
Michael Schiavo as a registered nurse
I've heard that Mr. Schiavo (who is a registered nurse) studied nursing after Terri's collapse to help in rehabilitation efforts, which would be fairly pertinent to the section on him in the article. Unfortunately because of the recent Carla Iyer affidavit a google search with certain keywords just turns up almost nothing at all. Anybody have details on this to add to the article? Professor Ninja 04:47, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
- I found this using this search.
- With his wife in a nursing home, Michael began taking classes in health care at St. Petersburg Junior College. He eventually became a certified respiratory therapist and a registered nurse. Michael today works in an emergency room at a hospital in Florida.
- --Vik Reykja ♬ 05:12, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Awesome stuff, bless your boolean skills Vik. Professor Ninja 05:31, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
- When did Michael become an RN?
- Professor Ninja says that Michael became an RN so that he could help Terri. ("The man became an RN to care for Terri, for crying out loud," wrote Ninja.) But Michael ordered a halt to all of Terri's therapy, and even to her basic medical and dental care, and put a DNR order on her, around the end of 1992. Somehow it doesn't seem likely that the studies he persued after 1992 were motivated by a dsire to help Terri. NCdave 09:01, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Your dates are wrong. He continued rehab for Terri beyond 1992. Professor Ninja 09:16, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
- No, there's no documentation that she received any therapy after late 1992 or possibly very early 1993. (One of the GALs indicated that he ended it in 1994, but he had his dates mixed up.) The >$1 million malpractice award (which Michael swore in court was needed to pay for Terri's care and therapy) came in January 1993, and not a penny of it was ever spent on her therapy.
- But I am curious, please tell me: Where did you hear that Michael studied nursing so that he could better help with Terri's rehab? Who said that? NCdave 17:06, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Many times you at least have a point relative to a) the article or b) the talk discussion when you comment. This, sadly, is an example of the many times you don't. How is your speculation on motives helpful in a talk section that was, until you participated, a simple request for information? Please, continue to make this situation as combative as possible. It's great for the article, and really generates a cooperative, productive aura.
- Fox1 09:15, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Hold your sarcasm, Fox. I wasn't the guy who brought up Michael's motives for becoming an RN. That was Ninja, who stated it as a fact (elsewhere on the Talk page) that Michael had become an RN so that he could help Terri. Then he started out this section by saying it again, in the very first sentence: that Michael studied nursing "to help in rehabilitation efforts," though this time he wisely prefaced it with "I have heard."
- So tell me again why you are criticising me for introducing "speculation on motives" to this talk section??
- Ninja's speculation on motives was why I asked the question: because it is a matter of record that Michael ordered a halt to all of Terri's therapy around the time of the malpractice award, and put a DNR order on her soon after, which makes it implausible that, from then on, he was studying nursing so that he could help with Terri's rehab.
- I wonder whether Michael even started nursing school before he ordered that Terri not receive therapy and medical care? Was he in nursing school by the Fall semester of
20021992? If not, then obviously a supposed desire to better take care of Terri had nothing to do with him being in nursing school. Logically, that must be case if, as I suspect, it was the $300,000 that he got from the malpractice award (for loss of companionship) which enabled him to pay for nursing school. NCdave 17:06, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I wonder whether Michael even started nursing school before he ordered that Terri not receive therapy and medical care? Was he in nursing school by the Fall semester of
- Uh, a DNR order doesn't imply any form of misconduct on the part of Michael Schiavo, nor does it conflict with his nursing ability. You speak of logic constantly and try to construct premise-based arguments, but you're too chummy with non sequitur to do it successfully. Given the extent of Terri's brain damage any more cardiac arrests would likely kill her anyway, and if she was resuscitated it would probably turn a minutes-long death into an hours long one. It seems that a DNR was the wisest course of action to expedite the natural process of death in case Terri went into cardiac arrest, though in your fantasy world it's proof positive that he didn't become an RN to care for Terri. Wheee! Professor Ninja 00:45, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
- Ninja, you said that "The man became an RN to care for Terri, for crying out loud." Hence my first question: Please tell us where you heard that claim. What's your source, Ninja?
- We know that Michael became an RN after he had ordered a halt to Terri's therapy, and after he tried to kill her by ordering that an infection go untreated, and after he put a DNR order on her. Moreover, since becoming an RN, he still has not permitted any rehabilitative therapy for her. He hasn't even permitted routine dental care -- with the result that she has lost five teeth due to dental neglect. So it is obvious that, by the time he earned his RN, he certainly wasn't motivated by a desire to help with Terri's rehab: he couldn't help with something that he wouldn't permit.
- But I wonder whether it is even possible that helping Terri was ever his motive. If he entered nursing school in 1992 or earlier, it is possible that was his motive, in the beginning. But if he entered nursing school after 1992 then it is impossible that a desire to better help with Terri's rehab therapy was his ever motivation for going to nursing school, and that story that you heard is just another lie.
- Hence my second question: when did Michael Schiavo enter nursing school? NCdave 03:24, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- According to the State of Florida, Department of Health website, his current license was issued on 18 Jan 2000. Most nursing programs are at least two years, although I'll concede there may be some shorter, but in any event, given the time needed to take (and score) the boards, it's almost assuredly safe to calculate that he started his training no later than the Fall of '97. By the way, that site, FL-DOH sitedoesn't have any record of Carla Sauer Iyers or Heidi Law, the alleged caretakers who swore under oath that they were RNs. LRod
- Yes, thanks for the link. So Michael Shiavo became an RN in January, 2000. It normally takes 2-4 years to become an RN, so Michael Schiavo probably started his training in 1996-1998. If he was a slow student, it could have been as early as 1995. But that still means that Michael Schiavo didn't start his training to become a nurse until years after he had already ordered a halt to all therapy for Terri. It is impossible that he became a nurse to help with therapy that he had already ordered not be done. NCdave 08:02, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- It is impossible to draw any conclusion about when nursing training started from the date of issue of the license. So your statements are patently false. One can speculate on numerous scenarios, but unless you can cite authoritative sources (that means not zimp.org and the like, partisan, amateur, advocacy sites) as to his initial enrollment in a nursing program, your conclusion fails. Just to give you a hint, he could have gotten his RT first, then pursued the RN, both for the same reason. He could have done it part time (remember, he was working, spending at least some time with Terri, as well as dating, as you so gleefully recount) and probably couldn't have done it in two or even four years. My wife spent 35 years getting her BSN, for example, and no, she's not slow. LRod 216.76.217.43 01:05, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- So, again I ask Ninja: Where did you hear (the lie) that Michael became an RN to enable him to better assist with Terri's rehabilitative therapy? Inquiring minds want to know. NCdave 08:02, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- If you only knew the herculean efforts I've taken to control my sarcasm and occasionally caustic sense of humor on this page, I'd hope you wouldn't grudge me a slip or two, but I'll apologize nonetheless. The problem is this: yes, there are people here who play your partner in these long, debatably off-topic and largely speculative debates, and I wish they would control themselves better, as well. However, the constant in those strings has always been you and you've never made any observable attempt to de-escalate one of them. You've stated yourself that you're unable to make any of the changes you want due to what you see as partisan opposition, so... why not try new tactics? By your own admission you have little to nothing to lose.
- Fox1 06:43, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Like Joe Friday, I'm a "just the facts, Ma'am" kinda guy. I'm not the one who keeps making personal attacks on other Wikipedians here. Unlike Ninja, for instance, I've not called anyone an "evil troll." I've not posted anyone's work phone number to encourage their harrassment; that was done to me, by a Michael Schiavo partisan.
- The Felos propaganda machine generates a blizzard of lies. A lot of folks here don't want to believe that. They want to trust him. I know that trust is misplaced.
- My suspicion is that the Felos propaganda machine was the source for the false claim that this section discusses. But I want to know where it came from. Don't you? The originator of that lie is obviously untrustworthy. Luke 16:10-11 tells us, Whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. So it is important to know where the lie about Michael's motivation for becoming a nurse came from, so that we can know who is untrustworthy. Was it Felos & Co., or was it some other source? But Ninja won't answer the question of where he heard it.
- The claim, which Ninja repeated, that Michael Schiavo became a nurse to better help with Terri's rehab, is easily demonstrated to be rediculous, by looking at the chronology. It is impossible for anyone who knows the chronology of events to believe that Michael Schiavo became an RN so that he could better assist with Terri's therapy, since by the time he entered nursing school he had already ordered that she receive no therapy. Michael could not help do something that he would not permit to be done at all. NCdave 08:02, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- The article states (based on [7]) that Michael was studying to be a nurse on 1993-02-14, about a year before he accepts the diagnosis of PVS and "halts most therapy". The same source document states, "He wanted to become a nurse so he could care for his wife himself." It is entirely reasonable to suppose that this "care" persisted beyond the cessation of "most therapy". I don't know whether (or why) anyone is specifically pushing his motivations as related to therapy versus care, but speculation about the detail of Michael's motivations doesn't seem to me to be an encyclopædic distinction. At the point in time that he decided to become a nurse, there was no strong distinction between care and therapy. On another note, it seems to have taken him at least seven years to become registered, which is unusually long. Of course, registration (as opposed to training) may not have been his primary goal, and nursing is obviously not his originally chosen profession (so he may have had prerequisites to meet). Do we know whether he continued his day job as a restaurant manager during this period? Bovlb 14:38, 2005 Apr 3 (UTC)
- That is a useful link, and I thank you for it. I agree, seven years is, indeed, a very long time to become an RN; 2-4 is normal. But even as long ago as Feb. 14, 1993 Michael Schiavo had already halted Terri's therapy. This is what GAL Pearse said about Michael:
- At or around the time the [malpractice] litigation was finally concluded, he has a change of heart concerning further treatment which lead, according to the ward's parents, to his falling out with them. - GAL Pearse
- The malpractice settlement money was paid out in January 1993.
- The "change of heart" that GAL Pearse mentions was Michael's order that Terri receive no further therapy.
- That's not all that is interesting in that article. It also reports that Michael admitted lying:
- Schiavo said he told his in-laws that all the money had gone to his wife — a lie he said he told Bob Schindler "to shut him up because he was screaming."
- NCdave 00:00, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- That is a useful link, and I thank you for it. I agree, seven years is, indeed, a very long time to become an RN; 2-4 is normal. But even as long ago as Feb. 14, 1993 Michael Schiavo had already halted Terri's therapy. This is what GAL Pearse said about Michael:
- A dead body in the house. An open window. footprints lead up to the window and then away. therefore, whoever made the footprints must be the murderer? No, the window could have been open and a neighbor walking by thought they heard screaming, went to investigate, and heard nothing because the victim was already dead. Do you at all understand the difference between circumstantial evidence and proof? this "change of heart" story is circumstantial evidence. It's a dead horse. You can keep beating it all you want, but the evidence currently availble doesn't prove anything. Not that it isn't true, but you can't PROVE it. Do you understand the difference? Saying it over and over again doesn't prove it. Unless you have new evidence to add beyond circumstantial evidence, DROP IT. You cannot call a man a murderer because he COULD have done it. It is not enough. I'm sorry but that's just the way it is. If you want to hang him on circumstantial evidence, do it somewhere else. There are other interpretaions of the evidence that do not require Michael to have murdered her for the money. It is not possible to KNOW which interpretation is fact. So it is not possible to say it is true. You might very well be right that he did it for the money, but the evidence you give is not enough. And currently this country is founded on the idea that a man is innocent until PROVEN guilty. Every time that rule was broken, very bad things happened. And any theory that requires a conspiracy is automatically suspect. If a theory requires Greer, Michael, every court appointed doctor, every court that reviewed the case, and even the Supreme friggen Court who looked at it and passed, to be in on the conspiracy at some level, just doesnt fly. Sorry. Deal with it. You'll need massive amounts of direct physical evidence to prove something like that. Otherwise, it's an interesting movie plot, but it proves nothing. You cannot say he murdered his wife for the money without seeing a defamation suit soon after. the only defense to defamation is to PROVE the statement is true, and you haven't. Accept it. You might also want to consider that your interpretation about Michael is completely and wholly wrong. I'm sure you'll balk at the suggestion, but since you don't KNOW he did what you think he did, you need to be able to objectively question your interpretation, lest you be blind to other evidence. That's the only difference between dogma and fact. Facts can stand up to being questioned relentlessly. Dogma cannot. The appeal of dogma is that it provides the comfort of "knowing" when you really don't. If you hold facts above dogma, then you have to put up with not knowing all the time, not knowing everything, not knowing all the facts, and sometimes being left with many possible interpretations. And then you gotta decide whether you hold to the facts and put up with not knowing some things, or do you jump over to dogma and hang a man because "you know in your gut" that he's guilty. FuelWagon 03:53, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Straw Poll on Pain issues
- It is NPOV and consistent with the rest of the article to state without qualification in the intro that Terri is painless OR ...that Terri is in pain
PAIN requires NERVES. Terri still has NERVES (which is why she has reflexes). While it's debatable whether any part of her brain can process these nerve responses, it is misleading to suggest that pain is merely panic and anxiety. As George Greer himself said, touch a hot stove and you pull your hand back quickly. So, yes, persons in PVS can experience pain. 172.146.41.106 09:36, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Since when is a judge an expert on neurophysiology?203.213.77.138 06:35, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- It is POV or inconsistent with the rest of the article to state without qualification in the intro that Terri is painless OR ...that Terri is in pain
- BoomHitch 03:01, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
- Tonyr1988 06:18, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
- 203.213.77.138 06:35, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- It's a disputed statement. NPOV requires that the article sets out all points of view without taking sides. Therefore article should not state without qualification that Terri Schiavo is unable to feel pain. That's all there is to it. Dbiv 13:37, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I don't think that we can know how much pain Terri is experiencing. What we do know is that she is receiving analgesics to control pain, from people who swore in court that they are absolutely certain that in her condition she cannot experience pain. NCdave 03:05, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I don't recognize the validity of this poll, as the question is flawed. The statement, There is no evidence that Schiavo is suffering, since conscious awareness is impossible in the absence of cortical activity, is made with qualification: Terri Schiavo is incapable of "suffering" due to her extensive brain damage. Pain...is the recognition of nociception by the nervous system, which sends the impulse to regions of the brain where consciousness exists. In the case of a severely brain injured person - one in a persistent vegetative state - those areas of consciousness have been destroyed, and as result "they don't 'feel' pain.[8]. Play with words all you like, this is not in dispute. --Viriditas | Talk 07:41, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- <sarcasm>Okay, you are right. Her parents think she is in no pain.</sarcasm>BoomHitch 07:46, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
- Patients in a persistent vegetative state do not feel pain, nor do they "suffer," says Michael De Georgia, MD, head of the neurology-neurosurgery intensive care unit at the Cleveland Clinic Foundation...Pain, as well as suffering, requires consciousness, which is lacking in a person in a persistent vegetative state..."Certainly these patients don't suffer," he adds. "Suffering is really that whole emotional aspect of pain: fear, anxiety, panic surrounding pain. You have to have consciousness to experience these emotions. So just as a person in a persistent vegetative state can't experience pain because of a lack of consciousness, they also don't suffer."...Dr. DeGeorgia says that a patient in a persistent vegetative state can experience arousal, meaning that the patient's eyes may be open and the patient may laugh, cry or appear to track someone who is in the room. And that is what can be confusing for people, especially relatives, he says. "For example, a patient in persistent vegetative state will grasp your hand. In fact if you put anything into the patient's hand, the hand will grasp it. But this is a very primitive reaction. A newborn baby will grasp your finger, but there is no consciousness." It is consciousness that determines whether one can "feel" pain in the sense that most people understand when they talk about feeling pain. This doesn't mean that a patient like Terri Schiavo won't respond to pain stimulus - if you pinch her arm, she is like to flinch away. "That is called nociception," De Georgia says. "Tissue is damaged by the pinch, this generates a response in a receptor, which sends an impulse along the peripheral nerves. This impulse travels to the thalamus, which directs the arm to withdraw," he said. It is what is commonly called a reflex. Pain, on the other hand, is the recognition of nociception by the nervous system, which sends the impulse to regions of the brain where consciousness exists. In the case of a severely brain injured person - one in a persistent vegetative state - those areas of consciousness have been destroyed, and as result "they don't 'feel' pain." [9]--Viriditas | Talk 07:57, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I think you're missing my point--it has nothing to do with whether PVS patients can feel pain: if you totally disregard her parents (and their supporters') opinion on the issue of pain (as you are doing by refusing to recognize that they dispute this issue at all), you can hardly treat their directly related opinion on the issue of Terri's condition vis-a-vis the PVS opinion in a balanced manner. But that is only my opinion; it seems to me that the two issues of balance are intertwined, but maybe I'm wrong. BoomHitch 08:04, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
- Patients in a persistent vegetative state do not feel pain, nor do they "suffer," says Michael De Georgia, MD, head of the neurology-neurosurgery intensive care unit at the Cleveland Clinic Foundation...Pain, as well as suffering, requires consciousness, which is lacking in a person in a persistent vegetative state..."Certainly these patients don't suffer," he adds. "Suffering is really that whole emotional aspect of pain: fear, anxiety, panic surrounding pain. You have to have consciousness to experience these emotions. So just as a person in a persistent vegetative state can't experience pain because of a lack of consciousness, they also don't suffer."...Dr. DeGeorgia says that a patient in a persistent vegetative state can experience arousal, meaning that the patient's eyes may be open and the patient may laugh, cry or appear to track someone who is in the room. And that is what can be confusing for people, especially relatives, he says. "For example, a patient in persistent vegetative state will grasp your hand. In fact if you put anything into the patient's hand, the hand will grasp it. But this is a very primitive reaction. A newborn baby will grasp your finger, but there is no consciousness." It is consciousness that determines whether one can "feel" pain in the sense that most people understand when they talk about feeling pain. This doesn't mean that a patient like Terri Schiavo won't respond to pain stimulus - if you pinch her arm, she is like to flinch away. "That is called nociception," De Georgia says. "Tissue is damaged by the pinch, this generates a response in a receptor, which sends an impulse along the peripheral nerves. This impulse travels to the thalamus, which directs the arm to withdraw," he said. It is what is commonly called a reflex. Pain, on the other hand, is the recognition of nociception by the nervous system, which sends the impulse to regions of the brain where consciousness exists. In the case of a severely brain injured person - one in a persistent vegetative state - those areas of consciousness have been destroyed, and as result "they don't 'feel' pain." [9]--Viriditas | Talk 07:57, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- <sarcasm>Okay, you are right. Her parents think she is in no pain.</sarcasm>BoomHitch 07:46, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
It's factually incorrect to claim either that Ms Schiavo experiences pain or experiences no pain. We have no knowledge either way. Certainly her body still possesses pain receptors and enough brain function to react to them--and does so. To say that she experiences pain is, however, to imply falsely that we know that she experiences anything. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 09:58, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I would like to add that unless someone here is a neuroscientist, specialised in this particular area, speculations on the topic seem of limited interest. Rama 10:57, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Well, we know that Terri is experiencing no pain now -- since she has died. We also know that she was capable of experiencing pain over the last 15 years, since the nursing staff at her nursing home and hospice had standing orders to treat her painful menstural cramps with analgesics, whenever she exhibited symptoms of discomfort.
- We can't know how much pain she actually experienced while being dehydrated to death, because we don't know whether or not the analgesics and sedatives she received were sufficient to block her pain. But that's really not the main issue about pain. The main argument is about whether or not she could experience pain, if not medicated. The importance of that argument is because of the undisputed fact that patients in a PVS cannot experience pain. It is because of the fact that she clearly could experience pain that we know that she was not in a PVS, and it is because of the fact that Michael Schiavo's chosen caregivers for Terri obviously knew she could experience pain that we know that M.Schiavo, Felos, Cranford, et al knew all along that she wasn't in a PVS, even as they argued in court that she was. NCdave 09:00, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Text removed
In an appearance on ABC News's Nightline on March 15, 2005, Michael Schiavo cited the willingness that Mrs. Schiavo's parents expressed to keep her alive by any means necessary, including quadruple amputation if needed, as a key reason for denying transfer of guardianship to them. [10]
- No, the transcript does not say that. Schiavo makes it quite clear that it has nothing to do with the Schindlers. SCHIAVO: If I moved on with my life — and I moved on with a portion of it — but I still have a big commitment to Terri. I made her a promise...And another reason why I won't give Terri back is that Mr. Schindler testified in court, at the 2000 trial, that he would — to keep Terri alive he would cut her arms and legs off and put her on a ventilator just to keep her alive...It's not about the money. This is about Terri. It's not about the Schindlers, it's not about the legislators, it's not about me, it's about what Terri Schiavo wanted. I am in the process of tracking down this testimony, as I recall reading parts of it in another article. --Viriditas | Talk 11:22, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Ok, here it is, from the December 2003 report to Governor Bush by Dr. Jay Wolfson from the University of South Florida:
- Testimony provided by members of the Schindler family included very personal statements about their desire and intention to ensure that Theresa remain alive. Throughout the course of the litigation, deposition and trial testimony by members of the Schindler family voiced the disturbing belief that they would keep Theresa alive at any and all costs. Nearly gruesome examples were given, eliciting agreement by family members that in the event Theresa should contract diabetes and subsequent gangrene in each of her limbs, they would agree to amputate each limb, and would then, were she to be diagnosed with heart disease, perform open heart surgery. There was additional, difficult testimony that appeared to establish that despite the sad and undesirable condition of Theresa, the parents still derived joy from having her alive, even if Theresa might not be at all aware of her environment given the persistent vegetative state. 'Within the testimony, as part of the hypotheticals presented, Schindler family members stated that even if Theresa had told them of her intention to have artificial nutrition withdrawn, they would not do it. Throughout this painful and difficult trial, the family acknowledged that Theresa was in a diagnosed persistent vegetative state. --Viriditas | Talk 11:32, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Uhm, how does Mr. Schindler saying that he would cut her arms and legs off not represent that statement? I'm not understanding where your quibble is... the testimony? The statement about amputation? "a" key reason vs. "the" key reason? Please explain why you removed the text, as I'm not seeing a clear explanation. Ronabop 11:43, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- The editor wrote that the statement in question was a key reason for denying transfer of guardianship to them. The transcript does not say that. If anything, Schiavo makes it clear that this is one reason directly connected to the Schindler's inability (probably for religious reasons) to respect Terri's wishes. The quote in Wolfson's report makes that clear, but Schiavo only alludes to the testimony in the transcript. Also, Michael Schiavo further clarifies in the transcript that this is not about what he wants, but about what Terri Schiavo wanted. The statement that was removed from the article attempted to distort these facts. Further, the statement by the Schindlers has been put to rest on page 34 of Wolfson's report:Of the Schindlers, there has evolved the unfortunate and inaccurate perception that they will "keep Theresa alive at any and all costs" even if that were to result in her limbs being amputated and additional, complex surgical and medical interventions being performed, and even if Theresa had expressly indicated her intention not to be so maintained. During the course of the GAL's [Guardian Ad Litem] investigation, the Schindlers allow that this is not accurate, and that they never intended to imply a gruesome maintenance of Theresa at all costs. --Viriditas | Talk 12:09, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Uhm, how does Mr. Schindler saying that he would cut her arms and legs off not represent that statement? I'm not understanding where your quibble is... the testimony? The statement about amputation? "a" key reason vs. "the" key reason? Please explain why you removed the text, as I'm not seeing a clear explanation. Ronabop 11:43, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Testimony provided by members of the Schindler family included very personal statements about their desire and intention to ensure that Theresa remain alive. Throughout the course of the litigation, deposition and trial testimony by members of the Schindler family voiced the disturbing belief that they would keep Theresa alive at any and all costs. Nearly gruesome examples were given, eliciting agreement by family members that in the event Theresa should contract diabetes and subsequent gangrene in each of her limbs, they would agree to amputate each limb, and would then, were she to be diagnosed with heart disease, perform open heart surgery. There was additional, difficult testimony that appeared to establish that despite the sad and undesirable condition of Theresa, the parents still derived joy from having her alive, even if Theresa might not be at all aware of her environment given the persistent vegetative state. 'Within the testimony, as part of the hypotheticals presented, Schindler family members stated that even if Theresa had told them of her intention to have artificial nutrition withdrawn, they would not do it. Throughout this painful and difficult trial, the family acknowledged that Theresa was in a diagnosed persistent vegetative state. --Viriditas | Talk 11:32, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Ok, here it is, from the December 2003 report to Governor Bush by Dr. Jay Wolfson from the University of South Florida:
- Re-added text, with efforts to manage such issues, feel free to adjust as needed! Ronabop 12:14, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
LA Times stories
Under the politicians sub-section there are two LA Times stories summarized, presumably to cast doubt on the motives of the Republicans, but should we really have them here? Here's my two cents:
- I think the March 26 DeLay story is unfair since in his particular situation, there was no contention about the wishes of his father. I'm not aware that DeLay has said that he does not think that anyone should be ever removed from life support, just that in cases where there may be some doubt to "err on the side of life".
- I'm less sure about the March 22 GWB story even after reading Sun Hudson and Advance Directives Act. It seems to be the case that Sun Hudson would have died in the near future regardless of the respirator, so the decision was made to remove the tube, and hasten the process. In the Schiavo case it seems like she could live well into old age, but with no higher brain function. Is that a correct assessment?
--CVaneg 16:30, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Sun Hudson's form of dwarfism is typically fatal, however, vigorous medical care allows these children to live past infancy (albeit with severe limitations, such as mental retardation). Sun's death was not a 100% thing. Furthermore, it's a contrast -- Wanda Hudson, Sun's legal guardian, was refusing to withdraw support. Professor Ninja 17:27, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
- Thing is, we're not taking sides. If people with axes to grind are making this kind of comment, we should report the fact, without endorsing it. This isn't a piece of journalism, it's an encyclopedia article, with all the distancing that implies. We certainly shouldn't be getting into whether the comparison is a just one unless this has been raised publicly--if DeLay's team has responded to it in those terms, for instance. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 06:48, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I agree it is not our place to take sides. I think most people on this page (though clearly not all) share that point of view. That does not mean that we should not be judging whether a source is a fair one, though. After all, we have made plenty of determinations that while some anti-Michael Schiavo articles are strictly speaking true, that they take liberties and interpretations of the facts that are misleading and unjustified. I don't see how this is all that different. --CVaneg 08:03, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I don't agree with that kind of determination. We should be adopting NPOV, which means we judge a view by whether it's significant, not whether we agree with it. There are tonnes of anti-Michael Schiavo stories advanced by many groups and they have had a lot of influence, so they should be cited, otherwise it'll look like we're hiding something. See WP:NPOV. "assert facts, including facts about opinions — but don't assert opinions themselves"--Tony Sidaway|Talk 23:37, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I agree it is not our place to take sides. I think most people on this page (though clearly not all) share that point of view. That does not mean that we should not be judging whether a source is a fair one, though. After all, we have made plenty of determinations that while some anti-Michael Schiavo articles are strictly speaking true, that they take liberties and interpretations of the facts that are misleading and unjustified. I don't see how this is all that different. --CVaneg 08:03, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Thing is, we're not taking sides. If people with axes to grind are making this kind of comment, we should report the fact, without endorsing it. This isn't a piece of journalism, it's an encyclopedia article, with all the distancing that implies. We certainly shouldn't be getting into whether the comparison is a just one unless this has been raised publicly--if DeLay's team has responded to it in those terms, for instance. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 06:48, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Well, Terri had some higher brain function, CVaneg. The Florida DCF neurologist's report, along with the testimony of numerous witnesses, points out that she recognized various people, and responded differently to different people, and sometimes responded with apparent understanding to English language. NCdave 18:14, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
IMVHO the best way to handle the DeLay story is to note its details as reported by the LA Times and also note the specific circumstances of it, which do differ significantly from Schiavo (e.g. DeLay's father was in a coma and required a ventalator to breath). This is neutral as the reader can then interpret it for himself. I attempted to do this previously, though another user removed the information in between, giving only an ad hominem attack on the source article as his reason for doing so. That is not sufficient to remove pertinent factual data that is presented in a neutral manner, so I restored it and would ask the user who removed it to quit promoting a POV by removing material he/she does not like. Rangerdude 23:13, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I nearly agree. However it's a point of view that the ventilator is relevant. If someone has made a comment to that effect, cite that as an opinion. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 23:44, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Cremation
There are reports of Michael Schiavo's plans to cremate Terri... Does someone want to add this somewhere?
- I'm not sure where it would go, nor what significance to impart to this fact. I suppose you could put it in the section regarding the anticipated autopsy. since the autopsy was announced in part to deflect rumors that Michael was trying to hide something by having the body cremated. Personally, I'm inclined to wait. --CVaneg 19:34, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Apparently, the Schindler family wants to have a proper Catholic mass before she is cremated but Michael wants the cremation to happen either before the Catholic mass or he doesn't want the Catholic mass to happen at all. I agree that this information is a little sketchy at best and waiting for more information would not hurt. This is also based on the aftermath of her death and I am not sure if this article wants to go in the direction of Terri's life and struggle, the feud between the Schindlers and Michael Schiavo, or both.--207.65.109.90 17:03, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Apparantly the autopsy photos are rumored to have leaked and be availible. I don't know if this is true or a joke but may be note worthy if someone could give a definitive answer.--Case 04:47, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)
Early life -- weight inconsistency
There's an inconsistency in the "Early Life" reporting of Schiavo's weight: in one paragraph she weighed 200 pounds and lost 65 pounds, in the following paragraph she weighed 250 pounds and dropped to 150 pounds (i.e., she lost 100 pounds). Could someone please clean this up and provide citations for the numbers. Thanks. --64.132.60.202 21:16, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I am the editor who added both statements. The statement about 200 pounds has been cited in a number of places, including the The Johns Hopkins News-Letter. The 250 pounds statement was cited in Wolfson's, 2003 Guardian Ad Litem report. I suspect that the Johns Hopkins source was worded incorrectly, as I have read other sources who claim her weight was "around" 200 pounds. The Wolfson report is considered to be accurate, but I suspect there may be two different periods of weight loss here. I'm looking into it, and I should have an answer later tonight. --Viriditas | Talk 21:54, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Great. (Thanks for doing this.) Another potential primary source that might address this issue is the medical malpractice suit court record. --64.132.60.202 22:03, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I've used the March 26 Newsweek article, "The Legacy of Terri Schiavo" as a source. --Viriditas | Talk 06:49, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Great. (Thanks for doing this.) Another potential primary source that might address this issue is the medical malpractice suit court record. --64.132.60.202 22:03, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- GAL Wolfson only had 30 days to examine Terri and all the medical and legal evidence and prepare his report, which is probably why it contains some rather obvious errors (in the early timeline, for example). GAL Pearse had 6 months, which is probably why his report seems to be more carefully prepared. NCdave 07:21, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- This is by no means comprehensive, but I can give you a few other examples of errors in Wolfson's report. But first, note that Wolfson was predisposed to favor M.Schiavo's viewpoint, because shortly before being appointed GAL he told the local press that he thought Terri's feeding tube should be removed. That should have disqualified him from serving as GAL, but Judge Demers appointed him anyhow, on Oct. 31, 2003, despite objections filed in court on Oct. 25 and Oct. 29 by Terri's parents. Wolfson's report was issued a month later. In addition to the error regarding Terri's weight, it erred in favor of the M.Schiavo/Felos viewpoint in several ways:
- Wolfson accepted the PVS diagnosis, despite the disagreement of many physicians, and despite the fact that Terri was getting analgesics to relieve menstural pain every month, and the fact that PVS patients cannot experience pain. (GAL Pearse had also accepted the PVS diagnosis, but back in 1998, when Pearse did his report, the more precise & correct MCS diagnosis was a fairly new neurological classification.)
- Wolfson reported that Terri got physical therapy until 1994, even though there are no medical records of any therapy of any kind after 1992. (Wolfson's conclusion was presumably on the basis of M.Schiavo's representations.)
- Wolfson reported that Terri had never had a bedsore, even though Michael's own 1992 deposition in the medical malpractice case indicated that Terri had had a toe amputated because of bedsores.
- Wolfson accepted M.Schiavo's belated recollection of Terri's supposed wishes, even though GAL Pearse had found M.Schiavo's recollection not credible, even though Michael didn't "remember" it until 7-1/2 or 8 years later, and even though that belated recollection is inconsistent both with the testimony of other witnesses, and with Michael's own testimony in the 1992 malpractice case.
- Mostly, those seem like honest errors on GAL Wolfson's part (though accepting Michael's belated recollection is hard to fathom). My guess is that, due to the very short amount of time that Wolfson had, he didn't have time to read all the testimony from the 1992 malpractice case, and didn't have time to review the medical records which would have shown him, for example, that Terri's therapy ended in 1992 rather than 1994. NCdave 08:37, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- This is by no means comprehensive, but I can give you a few other examples of errors in Wolfson's report. But first, note that Wolfson was predisposed to favor M.Schiavo's viewpoint, because shortly before being appointed GAL he told the local press that he thought Terri's feeding tube should be removed. That should have disqualified him from serving as GAL, but Judge Demers appointed him anyhow, on Oct. 31, 2003, despite objections filed in court on Oct. 25 and Oct. 29 by Terri's parents. Wolfson's report was issued a month later. In addition to the error regarding Terri's weight, it erred in favor of the M.Schiavo/Felos viewpoint in several ways:
- There is inaccurate information in this section. Michael himself stated in a deposition that they were not trying to conceive, that Terri's periods were normal, and that he was unaware of any odd eating habits or recent weight gain/loss. The deposition is here: http://www.glennbeck.com/news/03-24-05/mic-depo.pdf
- Very good info there, and I thank you for posting that very useful link, whoever you are! That deposition also indicates that Terri's peak weight (which was way before she met Michael) was about 200 lbs. While she was with Michael, her weight was always between 120 and 145 lbs.
- That's just about ideal. According to the chart that came with my bathroom scale, 122 lbs is the ideal weight for a medium build 5'4-1/2" woman. According to this Met Life table, the ideal weight is 125-140. According to this table the ideal weight is 110-141. According to this site the ideal weight is 119-133 lbs.
- But who are you? Please sign your messages. You can easily sign and date your messages by appending ~~~~ (four tildes) to the end.
- NCdave 08:37, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Would it be possible to add one more external link
I realize that the links section of this article has been discussed and pared; however, would it be possible to add the following external link under 11.3 Advocacy and commentary: abstractappeal.com -- it's a Florida law blog. With regard to the Schiavo case, it is, in the author's words, an attempt to help people understand the law in this case. It would be a balance to the two already listed links and it would also provide a commentary on Florida law. --64.132.60.202 00:55, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- abstractappeal.com is already listed under the heading informational sites. Having not read the whole thing, I can't say whether or not proponents of the Schindler camp would call it advocacy. --CVaneg 01:06, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Ah, I see -- Thank you. (Would it be possible, then, to change the wording of that link to, e.g., Informational Site: "The legal aspects of the Schiavo case"? I, alas, skipped over it initially, thinking it was another general information site about Schiavo, et al.)--64.132.60.202 01:20, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Don't hesitate to Be_bold and get a Wikipedia:Username while you're at it. --CVaneg 01:26, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Michael Schiavo's girlfriend
I think it's important for this article to mention that Michael Schiavo is living with another woman and they have two children. I don't know how this got lost - it was in the article weeks ago. It should be phrased neutrally, of course. The recent anon edits are disappointingly opinionated, but we can find a way to work this fact into the article neutrally. Rhobite 07:04, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
- I have added a paragraph to the Michael Schiavo section describing Mr. Schiavo's present relationship. I feel it is reasonably neutral, but feel free to edit or discuss it if you think that there is room for improvement in that area. Firebug 07:19, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Your inclusion is good but I think it needs to be mentioned when they moved in together or some such. If I'm not mistaken, this was not until several years after Terri collapased yet this is not made clear in the bit you added 60.234.141.76 16:30, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Michael Schiavo moved in with his girlfriend, Cindy Shook (now Cindy Brasher), in the first half of 1992, a little over two years after Terri's collapse. He and Cindy had been dating since sometime in 1991. But that's not who he lives with now. (Cindy is now terrified of him, BTW.) He's now living with Jodi Centonze, whom he calls his "fiancee." My recollection is that he moved in with her in 1995 (should double-check the date). They have two children together. They are living together in open adultery, in violation of Florida law (798.01). The crime is a second degree misdemeanor, carrying a maximum sentence of 60 days incarceration. NCdave 17:07, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Good grief. Enough with calling Michael a criminal. Yes, there is still a law on the books that makes adultery a crime. However, this law hasn't been enforced in who knows how long, and would very likely be ruled unconstitutional if anyone did try to enforce it. --Azkar 18:01, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Whether it would be ruled unconstitutional is a matter of speculation. You might be right about that. The courts are unpredictable. But it hasn't been ruled unconstitutional, and certainly the framers of the U.S. Constitution would be astonished and horrified at such an "interpretation." I don't know how recently or often it has been enforced in Florida, but, for now, at least, it is the law, and the law should be enforced.
- "One single object... [will merit] the endless gratitude of society: that of restraining the judges from usurping legislation." -Thomas Jefferson
- NCdave 18:28, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Whether it would be ruled unconstitutional is a matter of speculation. You might be right about that. The courts are unpredictable. But it hasn't been ruled unconstitutional, and certainly the framers of the U.S. Constitution would be astonished and horrified at such an "interpretation." I don't know how recently or often it has been enforced in Florida, but, for now, at least, it is the law, and the law should be enforced.
- Good grief. Enough with calling Michael a criminal. Yes, there is still a law on the books that makes adultery a crime. However, this law hasn't been enforced in who knows how long, and would very likely be ruled unconstitutional if anyone did try to enforce it. --Azkar 18:01, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Oddly enough, the penalty for Open Adultery in Florida is no worse than the penalty for unmarried lewd cohabitation. In some other States, adultery is punished much more severely. NCdave 17:23, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Oddly enough, the Schindlers knew about this since 1991. Oddly enough, Michael was never even CHARGED with the crime. So, not so oddly enough, he was never convicted. So, not so oddly enough, saying Michael is guilty of open adultery is irrelevant possibly defamation. and yet, oddly enough, you think acting as judge, jury, and executioner means otherwise. Go Hathorne Go. FuelWagon 17:40, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- 'They are living together in open adultery, in violation of Florida law' Uhm, I'm no legal expert, but isn't something like this for the courts to decide if it is really in violation or not? I mean, don't we generally need a conviction before we say he has broken the law? Or do we make no distinction between allegations from some hothead and a conviction in a court of law. I think Jefferson said somethign about that as well. anon
- No, anon, it is the other way around. Violation of the law comes first, the conviction (sometimes) comes as a result. A person isn't even prosecuted, let along convicted, until it is alleged that he has broken the law.
- In this case there really is no question about the fact that Michael Schiavo is guilty of violating of this statute. It is hard to imagine a more blatant case: he's been living with Jodie Centonz since 1995, he's been calling her his finacee since 1997, and he has two children with her -- all while still legally married to Terri.
- Nor is Ms. Centonz the first woman Michael has lived with in open adultery since Terri's injury. NCdave 17:23, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Too long of an article/discussion
How can this article take up so much space? Is it really necessary to have a life story and surmising of every legal challenge? Seems to me this whole article should be no more than 4-5 paragraphs maximum...
- I think the information is important, as well as balanced. Also try and sign your name after your comments (use four ~'s) Saopaulo1 08:55, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
- Hah, this article is grossly POV-biased, and riddled with false statements. It is just a propaganda piece, a perfect example of why Wikipedia gets so little respect. (But I, too, would appreciate signatures.) NCdave 17:20, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Life Support or feeding and hydration
What is the better ways to describe the situation. I say Life Support. Saopaulo1 09:02, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
- It is considered life support. It may be more accurate to use the phrase, artificial life support in the form of nutrition and hydration. See also pp. 21-23 of the 2003 Wolfson report. --Viriditas | Talk 09:18, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Greer didn't say "artificial." He specifically ordered that she be deprived of nutrition and hydration by "natural" means. NCdave 16:46, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Most of the edits are with regards to life support. I propose that the sentence starting with "The efforts of Schiavo's husband to discontinue life support have prompted a fierce debate over" be changed to "The efforts of Schiavo's husband to discontinue life support (as defined by Florida Law) have prompted a fierce debate over", with a link to the law. That way, there is no question that this wiki page is talking about the legal definition of life support, as opposed to someone's opinion.--220.220.184.249 06:33, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I agree. Anyone else agree, or disagree? Mike H 06:37, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
- Agreed. Rama 06:39, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Agreed. Neutralitytalk 14:52, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
- Agree. Iceberg3k 15:13, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
- Diagreed (but I'm anon so maybe it doesn't matter). Whatever your personal opinions may be, life support is a medical term. It includes basically anything which is necessary to keep a person alive. This includes feeding tubes, IV drips etc. Basically, if a person will die without this extra equipement then it's life support. This can include pacemakers in some cases altho this is a bid more debatable since for most people, pace makers only protect them from potentially dangerous situations don't keep them alive). I'm not saying it is necessarly okay to remove all forms of life support, this is obviously up to a person but the fact is any medical practiotioner (doctor, nurse etc) worth their degree would agree this is life support since you need food and water to life and she can't feed or drink herself.-anon
- The term "life-support" doesn't encompasss everything you need to live. In a medical context, it means artificial measures, such as a respirator. The extension of the term "life support" to include tube feeding is recent and still controversial, no definition of "life-support" includes any form of feeding by mouth. Spoon-feeding is not considered "life support," anywhere. However, Greer specifically ordered that she not be given nutrition or hydration by "natural" means (i.e., he prohibited spoon-feeding).
- (Note: 1-1/2 years ago Greer forbade her from receiving 8 weeks of therapy that was intended to determine whether she could be sustained by spoon-feeding.)
- Disagreed. The judge's 2 orders didn't mention either life support or a feeding tube. They specifically ordered that she be deprived of nutrition and hydration. To say that it was about life support, when he specifically ordered that she not be given food or water by natural means, is POV biased and grossly deceptive. NCdave 16:43, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- W/r/t Florida law, I agree with linking to it, but it is important to note that it was violated: it required "clear and convincing" proof that she was in a persistent vegetative state, and "clear and convincing" proof that she had expressed the wishe to not be kept alive, an evidentiary standard which obviously was not met in either case. NCdave 16:43, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
first, linguistics: "life support" v. "nutrition and hydration" v. "life-prolonging procedures"--frankly, it can be any of these three terms, with more credence to "life support" and "life-prolonging procedures" because: (1) the Florida Statutes in 2005 use the term "life-prolonging procedures," see, e.g., S. 765.101(10) Fla. Stat. (2005)("Life-prolonging procedures" defined as "medical procedure, treatment, or intervention, including artificially provided sustenance and hydration, which sustains, restores, or supplants a spontaneous vital function. The term does not include the administration of medication or performance of medical procedure, when such medication or procedure is deemed necessary to provide comfort care or to alleviate pain."); (2) the initial order in this case refers to "life support," see, 2-11-2000 Order ("Ordered and adjudged that the Petition for Authorization To Discontinue Artificial Life Support ... and Petitioner/Guardian is hereby authorized to proceed to proceed with the discontinuance of said artificial life support"); and (3) the phrase "nutrition and hydration" was introduced later in the proceedings, see, e.g., 2-25-2005 Order (the Schindler family filed a motion entitled, "Motion for an Emergency Stay of Execution of February 11, 2000, Order To Remove Theresa Schiavo's Nutrition and Hydration" and this court order uses this term instead of life support throughout the order.) Subsequent to this, the Schindler family filed an emergency motion to provide Theresa Schiavo with "food and water by natural means." see, 2-28-2005 Motion, and so on. My vote would be for "life-prolonging procedures" as that is the name of the act in Florida.
second, link to the Florida law: i recommend a link to the entire chapter, which is Chapter 765 of the Florida Statutes.
considering the speed with which this article changes, and having never edited any Wikipedia article, I am reluctant to make these changes, and hope that someone else who has been editing this article will make such a change, if that is the concensus.
third, to NCDave: please indicate when you received a license to practice law in the State of Florida. Additionally, it is clear from the discussion above and other discussions concerning this article that you are articulating/regurgitating arguments made by the Schindler family and its supporters. This is not a neutral POV, it is advocacy. Further, if you are going to make such statements concerning Florida law and the judicial decisions related thereto, I highly recommend that you read the law and the case law, and cite to cases that support your position, keeping in mind that I believe/suspect a number of your arguments have alreay been made in court and found to be without merit. --Mia-Cle 00:16, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- However, here is the definition of "Life-sustaining procedures" under Florida law:
- "Life-prolonging procedure" means any medical procedure, treatment, or intervention, including artificially provided sustenance and hydration, which sustains, restores, or supplants a spontaneous vital function. The term does not include the administration of medication or performance of medical procedure, when such medication or procedure is deemed necessary to provide comfort care or to alleviate pain.
- Note that the definition plainly specifies artificially provided nutrition and hydration, implying that it does not encompass naturally provided nutrition and hydration. But Greer chose to ignore that. There is no provision in Florida law permitting the withholding or withdrawing of natural nutrition and hydration, yet Judge Greer explicitly ordered that Terri not be provided "with food and water by natural means." See "Permission to Provide Theresa Schiavo with Food and Water by Natural Means is DENIED."
- I don't see how there can be any legitimate dispute about the fact that Greer's order was outside the law. NCdave 00:52, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- To get this discussion back on track, it is my understanding that the point of this section of discussion is to decide between using the phrase "life support" or "nutrition and hydration." I will reiterate: to be technically correct, in Florida, the phrase is "life-prolonging procedure." Which gives one three options, two of which are more acceptable for a neutral point of view (life support or life-prolonging procedure) and one which is less so because, as I noted, "nutrition and hydration" were introduced by the Schindler family motions subsequent to the trial, which is not a neutral point of view. (i.e., the statutory phrase was changed, deliberately, by the Schindlers in their motions. this is not the neutral phrasing of the statute.)
- As to the rest of your "argument" --which is irrelevant for the point of this section -- you show a remarkable lack of understanding of law and the judicial process; however, based on your numerous "discussions" wherein you only regurgitate one point of view, I am not going to waste my time attempting to explain the legal issues and the legal process to you. Go to law school. I will simply point out that in 1990, the Florida Supreme Court issued its landmark decision in this area, "In re Browning," which, in addition to affirming that in Florida competent and incompetent persons have the right to determine for themselves the course of their medical treatment, it sets forth the clear and convincing standard (that you clearly, clearly do not understand. also, see Judge Greer's initial order, which also outlines the application of the standard. For a good interpretation for lay persons, abstractappeal.com addresses this as well).--Mia-Cle64.132.60.202 23:39, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Ignoring your insults, "life-prolonging procedure" is the term defined in the law which authorizes withholding or withdrawing nutrition & hydrations from some patients -- but the legal definition of "life-prolonging procedure" does not cover natural feeding and hydration, which Greer explicitly ordered halted.
- you cannot "halt" something that has never happened or was physically incapable of happening. i do not recall in any of the medical evidence a time when Mrs. Schiavo was not on a feeding tube, as it was the only way she was able to take nutrition without drowning/choking as she lacked the ability to swallow. see professor ninja's response. this line of argument is nonsense. again, i am tired of attempting to explain to you the nuances of court proceedings, but here it is, one last time: the Schindler motions deliberately changed the language from the initial order, whatever their motivation to do so. --Mia-Cle
- Ignoring your insults, "life-prolonging procedure" is the term defined in the law which authorizes withholding or withdrawing nutrition & hydrations from some patients -- but the legal definition of "life-prolonging procedure" does not cover natural feeding and hydration, which Greer explicitly ordered halted.
- Intermediate orders referred to "life-prolonging procedure" but significantly the order which killed Terri directed that "Michael Schiavo shall cause the withdrawal of nutrition and hydration from the ward, Teresa Schiavo". [11] This order unqualified by the terms "natural" or "artifical" empowered the police to threaten with arrest anyone who would dare to give Terri a drink of water. How can quoting this order be introducing a POV? The text speaks for itself. This is the article about Terri Schiavo and not about legislative history or euphemism. patsw 14:23, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
More details on medical side?
Just reading through and noticed no mention of Dr Maxfield, etc? porges 11:30, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
- Of course not. He examined Terri and determined that she wasn't in a vegetative state. Including such information would be contrary to the purpose of the article. NCdave 20:23, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Is this correct
"Hospice staff describe Mr. Schiavo as a very supportive husband who berated nurses for not taking better care of his wife; in 1994 the hospice attempted (unsuccessfully) to get a restraining order against him because he was demanding more attention for his wife at the expense of other patients' care. Due to the attention she has received in the 15 years she has been bedridden, Terri Schiavo has never developed any bedsores." I have read before that she did develop bedsores. Would be interested to know sources for this so we can see which is correct 60.234.141.76 16:32, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- The source is that somebody just made it up. This article is riddled with outright lies. She wasn't even in hospice in 1994. NCdave 16:48, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- According to the relevant source documents, Terri was moved to a hospice in April, 2000. The passage goes on to say, according to Jay Wolfson, one of Mrs. Schiavo's court-appointed guardians, in 1994 the administration of one nursing home attempted, unsuccessfully, to get a restraining order against him because he was demanding more attention for his wife at the expense of other patients' care. I cannot find this exact claim in the Wolfson report. What I did find, was the following claim on p.10: ...it was determined that he had been very aggressive and attentive in his care of Theresa. His demanding concern for her well being and meticulous care by the nursing home earned him the characterization by the administrator as “a nursing home administrator’s nightmare”. It is notable that through more than thirteen years after Theresa’s collapse, she has never had a bedsore. I have attributed the bedsore comment to the Wolfson report, and the restraining order to this Newsweek article. Of course, if anyone has a better source, please add it. --Viriditas | Talk 03:57, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Father Johansen says that she did have bedsores. The apparent discrepancy might not mean that either Wolfson or Johansen is in error, however, since Johansen's article is much more recent. Here's the relevant section of Johansen's article:
- Many people believe that Terri Schiavo has had "the best of care," and that everything has been tried by way of rehabilitation. This belief is false. In fact, Terri has had no attempts at therapy or rehabilitation since 1992, and very little had been done up to that point. Terri has not even had the physical therapy most doctors would regard as normative for someone in her condition. The result is that Terri suffers from severe muscle contractures, which have caused her body to become contorted. Physical therapy could remedy this, but husband Michael has refused to provide it.
- Terri has also suffered from what many professionals would regard as neglect. She had to have several teeth extracted last year because of severe decay. This decay was caused by a lack of basic dental hygiene, such as tooth-brushing. She also developed decubitus (skin) ulcers on her buttocks and thighs. These ulcers can be prevented by a simple regimen of regular turning: a basic nursing task that any certified nurse's aide can perform. The presence of these easily preventable ulcers is a classic sign of neglect. Bob and Mary Schindler have repeatedly complained of Terri's neglect, and have sought to remove Michael as guardian on that basis. Judge Greer was unmoved by those complaints as well.
- NCdave 15:05, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Father Johansen says that she did have bedsores. The apparent discrepancy might not mean that either Wolfson or Johansen is in error, however, since Johansen's article is much more recent. Here's the relevant section of Johansen's article:
- Well, NCdave, I gotta thank you for that one link. I finally read the original words, and it really puts a lot of stuff into perspective. Here are some excerpts followed by my opinions in parens:
- The Petition is an attempt by Mr. and Mrs. Schindler to relitigate the entire case (held January 24, 2000). The affidavits of Heidi Law and Carlar Sauer Iyer deal exclusively with events occurring in the 1995-1997 timeframe, testimony certainly available at the time of the original evidentiary hearing. (Why didn't the Schindlers bring them to the original hearing? Why did Law/Iyer come forward just now especially if Michael was "killing" Terri with injections?) The affidavits of speech professionals show they rely on an interpretation of the videos from the 2002 evidentiary hearing, which is 180 degrees different from the affirmed ruling of this court. The affidavits of the 3 speech professionals clearly demonstrate that they disagree with the previous rulings of this court as amplified by the four opinions of the Second Disctrict Court of Appeals. It is clear they (the speech therapists) do not believe Terri is a vegatative state. Therefore any conclusion that they have reached would be fatally flawed.
- (A bunch of doctors examine Terri, do scans, and whatever, and diagnose her to be in a vegitative state. 4 speech therapists watch a tape made by the parents and think Terri is responding. Yeah, I think I'd throw out their affidavits. The Schindlers are fishing. A diagnosis based on some selective clips should not overrule the work of doctors who actually examined her. Greer did the right thing to toss this voodoo diagnosis)
- Ms. Iyer details what amounts to a 15-month cover-up which include the staff of Palm Garden of Largo Convalescent Center, the Guardian of the Person, the Guardian ad Litem, the medical professionals, the police, and believe it or not, Mr. and Mrs. Schindler.
- (Hm, a conspiracy theory. that has a familiar ring to it. Sound familiar, NCdave?)
- The affidavit of Ms. Law speaks of Terri responding on a CONSTANT basis. Neither in testimony nor in the medical records is there support for these affidavits... IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BELIEVE THAT MR. AND MRS. SCHINDLER WOULD NOT HAVE SUBPOENAED MS. IYER FOR THE JANUARY 2000 EVIDENTIARY HEARING HAD IYER CONTACTED THEM AS HER AFFIDAVIT ALLEGES.
- (uh, yeah. Iyer says that in 1997 she was in constant contact with the Schindlers because she thought they should know about their daughter. And yet in 2000, the Schindlers didn't subpoena her as a witness? This is so much bullshit I need hip waders to get over it. You accuse Michael of "remembering" that Terri wouldn't want to be kept alive only after he got the malpractice money. But you don't think this is a case of the Schindlers "remembering" that "oh, yeah, remember that nurse who said Michael was killing Terri? maybe we should subpeona her this time around?" Give me a break.)
- FuelWagon 17:05, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- That's mostly from Felos's pet judge, George Greer (with some of your own remarks inserted). Greer is the same guy who thumbed his nose at the recommendations of both of Terri's guardians ad litem, to rule according to Felos's wishes. His claim that the testimony of Heidi Law and Carla Iyer were previously available to the Schindlers is just a flat out lie. His claim that there is an inconsistency in Iyer's testimony is based on an obvious contortion of her words. However, when he said that he was dismissing three of the affidavits because they disagreed with his own previous conclusion about Terri's diagnosis, that was true - and shameful.
- Note, too, that the doctors in that previous evidentiary hearing split 3-to-2 in their diagnosis (hardly dispositive, were Greer a fair judge).
- But Greer didn't like the doctors that the family selected, so he simply discarded their testimony, and refused to permit Terri's family to select any other doctors to evaluate her. That left him with testimony from only one side.
- Tell me, what would you think of the fairness of the proceedings in a capital murder trial if the defendent's lawyers were allowed to present the testimony of only two expert witnesses? Have you ever heard of a case in which the defense was forbidden from having more than two expert witnesses? Even a non-capital case??
- What would you think of a capital murder case in which there was no jury, and only a single judge to rule on all the disputed facts, and no appeal of those rulings was allowed'?
- What if that judge discarded the testimony of the defense's only two expert witnesses, on dubious grounds, and refused to allow the defense to substitute other experts?
- What if, on the basis of that abbreviated testimony, the judge sentenced the defendant to death?
- Well, that's what Judge Greer did, with just one difference: Terri is not a murderer. NCdave 07:25, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
NCdave! Hey, that link about Iyer's affidavit is so good, I had to quote it in the timeline. (11 September 2003) Thanks! Got any more? FuelWagon 17:21, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Should we mentioned the parents/lawyer comments earlier today
I accidently posted this out of order so reposting it here I believe earlier today (or maybe it was yesterday) the lawyers and/or parents were claiming she is still doing very well etc etc... I think it's worth mentioning their comments before mentioning her death as it has a bearing on their ability to properly comprehend her condition in their interactions with her. Of course, it's possible she might have been looking well and then suddenly died but all this is irrelevant IMHO. Basically maybe a short breakdown of how Michael and the parents and the lawyers described her conditions as the days progresses is worth including IMHO60.234.141.76 16:36, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- In understand that 10 minutes before she died Michael kicked her family out. Does anyone know whether there was anyone else in the room with her when she died, besides Michael? NCdave 16:51, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Bobby Schindler and his sister, Suzanne Vitadamo, had been in the room visiting their sibling for about an hour and 45 minutes when a hospice administrator notified Michael Schiavo that his wife was in her final stages. The hospice official asked the siblings to leave the room so that Schiavo's condition could be evaluated. According to a hospice administrator, Bobby Schindler resisted and got into a dispute with a law enforcement officer there, saying he wanted to stay in the room, too. "Mr. Schiavo's overriding concern was Mrs. Schiavo has a right and had a right to die with dignity and die in peace," Felos said. "She had a right to have her last and final moments on this Earth be experienced by a spirit of love and not of acrimony." Her parents had begged to be with Terri while she died, but police denied their request, said Brother Paul O'Donnell, the Schindlers' spokesman and spiritual adviser. [12] --Viriditas | Talk 02:59, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Wait a minute... Is the state of the Final Stages part of the current article a complete and biased falsehood, then? I don't see any indication in the link given that "According to the Schindlers' spokesperson, a few minutes before she died her parents and siblings were told to leave the room by her husband, Michael Schiavo." According to either side, this decision was taken by hospice officials so that Terri's condition could be evaluated, and a few minutes before her death, the parents were nowhere near Terri's room! There is no suggestion at all of Michael kicking anybody out of the room, which is the impression currently given by the article. Unless I've been misreading the cnn link above... Someone fact-check and fix this quick.--Fangz 15:50, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Well, it really isn't clear who controlled access to her.
- "Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, stood by his client's decision to have Terri Schiavo's brother and sister leave the room."[13]
This seems to indicate that Michael Schaivo did have some say at least with regard to the brother and sister. As quoted from Viriditas above, the spokesman says that the police denied the Schindler's request. I'm not sure if that's on Michael Schaivo's order, or judicial order, or if it's just the decision of the police present at the time. --CVaneg 16:06, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- This just gets more confusing. As far as I can tell, there are two contradicting accounts from the above. Is the Michael Schaivo lawyer statement accurate, or is the unsourced statement about hospice officials (which may or may not be related to the immediately following statement from the hospice administrator) more accurate? In any case, there is still nothing about Michael Schaivo and the Schindler parents, especially a few minutes before her death. Do we have any other independent sources?--Fangz 17:35, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
POV use of word "family"
There are about twelve uses of the word "family" in the current version that in context appear to refer to Terri's parents (and possibly her siblings as well) but specifically exclude her husband. It seems to me that this usage is inherently POV as it delegitimizes Michael's relationship to her. Perhaps we should change these to more neutral expressions like "parents" and "the Schindler family" to avoid this apparent bias. I hesitate to 'be bold' on such a controversial article. What does everyone else think? Bovlb 18:23, 2005 Mar 31 (UTC)
- I agree.--Fangz 18:27, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I strongly disagree. Terri and Michael were long estranged. Terri's family includes her mother, her father, her brother, her sister, and various in-laws, aunts, uncles, etc., who all wanted to protect her. Her so-called "husband" was not a husband in any meaninful sense. A man can only have one marriage family, and for Michael that is his fiancee, Jodi, and their two children.
- Moreover, Terri's and Michael's marriage was on the rocks even before her collapse, and there is strong evidence of spousal abuse in that relationship. NCdave 19:18, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I'm not sure you understand what is being said. Not including Michael as part of Terri's "family" is putting forward a specific point of view - in this case, one that you strongly support. At the time of Terri's death, Michael was still her legal husband, and therefore family. --Azkar 19:42, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- There has been no evidence that Terri and Michael were estranged, long or otherwise. By law, he was and is her family, and should be indicated as such. There is no evidence of spousal abuse, and even if there were, that doesn't change the fact, that, under law', he is her family. RickK 00:31, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)
- NCDave just has a bug up his ass about Michael Schiavo. Maybe he ran over NCdave's cat or something. Iceberg3k 21:19, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)
- Michael didn't kill my cat. But he killed both of Terri's cats. NCdave 03:32, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have made the necessary clarifications/corrections. Bovlb 05:31, 2005 Apr 2 (UTC)
First Paragraph of Article is not relevant
The paragraph about 'Early Life' is not relevant nor desired on an encyclopaedia. My edit has nothing to do with point of view, religion, morality or anything else that people want to argue. It simply is NOT acceptable to include personal details not relevant to the subject. Please try to remember - this is an encyclopaedia NOT a biography. Viriditas - You would do well to stop calling legitimate edits vandalism - even if you disagree with the change. Rob cowie
- Could someone clarify why Terri Schiavo's early life should not be included. Is it notable, no. Should it be included, yes. The 'subject' is Terri Schiavo, if the subject is her death then the article should be renamed or split. - RoyBoy 800 20:50, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- The user is misinformed. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography, especially the "Structure" section. His "legitimate edits" consist of removing legitimate content. The users edits fall in between the grey area of sneaky vandalism, Newbieness, NPOV violations, and bullying or stubbornness. --Viriditas | Talk 20:53, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Rubbish - That paragraph does not enhance a readers understanding of the legal case surrounding this story, nor the ethical aspects of this story, nor the medical aspects of this story. Perhaps the purpose of this article should be clarified - is it about Terri Schiavo or about the circumstances of the legal case regarding her medical treatment? RoyBoy - I agree, there is a case for splitting this article... or renaming it Rob cowie
- The "Early life" section is an important part of a biography (see also Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography) and enhances every aspect of the article (not a story as you call it), including the historical timeline. The section that you twice removed directly "enhances" (as you term it) the medical, legal, and ethical elements, and it's quite clear as to how it accomplishes those goals: it informs the reader as to what kind of person Terri Schiavo was before her medical crisis. The section also gives a brief background on her eating disorder, which is thought to be responsible for her eventual collapse, and the section alludes to Michael Schiavo's malpractice case two years later. While the section certainly needs to be expanded, your removal of this content could be very loosely (and weakly) interpreted as sneaky vandalism, for by removing this content you are essentially engaging in misinformation, and misinforming the reader as to the origin and nature of Terri Schiavo's medical condition. This also plays into the hands of the POV warriors who insist that Terri never had an eating disorder, and that Michael Schiavo allegedly "abused" her, and was responsible for her collapse. So, in an indirect but very real way, you are assisting those who would misinform and perpetuate NPOV violations, not to mention that your repeated removal of standard biographical content, as well as your refusal to discuss the issue, is indicative of bullying and stubbornness on your part. It should also be said that I have also never heard of anyone removing an "Early life" section from a biographical article before, since the purpose of such an article is to inform the reader about the persons life. And, I intend to do just that by expanding the "Early life" section as time permits. --Viriditas | Talk 01:54, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
On a technical note - removing legitimate content does not render an edit illigitimate, an act of vandalism of a NPOV violation. Rob cowie 21:06, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You and I have different ideas of what Wikipedia is all about. But...Please Yourself Rob cowie 09:44, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Show me the error of my ways. Point me to a biographical article that has had the "Early life" section removed. Or, are you setting a new precedent? --Viriditas | Talk 10:23, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Below you suggest that 'It is not over, and won't be for some time'. However, you have explained to me that this is a biographical article. If that is the case, 'It' as you put it most certainly is over. Are you now suggesting that this article is NOT about the woman, but about the circumstances and peculiarities of her death and the discussion thereof? If you are, my comments still stand - this is not biographical and the first paragraph is irrelevant. Perhaps you are suggesting that this article is both? Rob cowie 12:30, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)
- I don't have a clue what you are on about, but without resorting to calling you a troll, I'm going to ask that we just stick to discussing this article. Your argument for removing the early life section does not seem to be clear. --Viriditas | Talk 10:54, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Well then, I suggest you pay more attention to you posts. A quick glance at your contributions to this site (many of which are very good) leads one to believe you are addicted to arguments. Please, for the sake of this site, think about what you are posting in a more logical manner.Rob cowie
- I don't have a clue what you are on about, but without resorting to calling you a troll, I'm going to ask that we just stick to discussing this article. Your argument for removing the early life section does not seem to be clear. --Viriditas | Talk 10:54, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Below you suggest that 'It is not over, and won't be for some time'. However, you have explained to me that this is a biographical article. If that is the case, 'It' as you put it most certainly is over. Are you now suggesting that this article is NOT about the woman, but about the circumstances and peculiarities of her death and the discussion thereof? If you are, my comments still stand - this is not biographical and the first paragraph is irrelevant. Perhaps you are suggesting that this article is both? Rob cowie 12:30, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)
- Show me the error of my ways. Point me to a biographical article that has had the "Early life" section removed. Or, are you setting a new precedent? --Viriditas | Talk 10:23, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Fork
I propose we split this article into Terri Schiavo (which is her biography) and Schiavo vs. Schindler (which describes the legal battle). Much the same way we have Amber Hagerman and AMBER Alert --Vik Reykja ♬ 22:03, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Comment I'd like to split because of its size, but my gut tells me to keep it as is. People will be coming to this article expecting to see the controversy. Then again; perhaps a distinction (split) should be made to clarify Terry was the subject of the debate, but not in the debate given her unfortunate circumstances. - RoyBoy 800 22:34, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I agree with RoyBoy, right now people who come to Wikipedia for this article probably want the full rundown. It should probably be kept in its present state until new information stops surfacing, (hopefully that means a week or two after the autopsy report is released). After that point, it will probably be a good idea to break this article down into two or more component parts. --CVaneg 23:33, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Same here, although I'm sure Terri Schiavo had an interesting life, the majority of wikipedia users will want to read about the controversy. bernlin2000 ∞ 16:12, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)
I disagree. It's best to keep this in one coherent article in order to control unnecessary duplication. Neutralitytalk 02:20, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)
- I was going to create a few daughters for this article; unfortunately my exam timetable has interfered slightly. However, I agree with CV and Roy that for the time being, seperation isn't the wisest course of action. Professor Ninja 21:00, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)
- It hardly matters at this point. The article is so full of falsehoods that it is of little use to anyone, except as propaganda designed to mislead people. NCdave 03:30, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Past tense, present tense, and Terri's death
In the light of Terri having died, we should be careful to review past and present tense as used in the article. The argument between the two parties might not have ended when she passed away. [[User:Rickyrab|Rickyrab | Talk]] 23:09, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Current event
Can we remove the "ongoing event" tag? Or should we wait until the autopsy? Meelar (talk) 03:45, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)
- As I mentioned some time ago, the tag is not useful in this case. This has been an ongoing event for 15 years and is likely to continue for years to come. --Viriditas | Talk 03:52, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Parents and Siblings
I am fairly certain that the parents were not present when Michael Schiavo told the family to leave the hospice. The brother and sister of Terri were the only ones present.
All the CNN article says is that the parents were not allowed to see her when they were informed of her last moments. They were not in the room and told to leave as this entry seems to suggest. The siblings were told to leave and the parents were told they could not see her.
- "Felos said that when hospice workers asked the siblings to leave around 8:45 a.m." ... "When Terri Schiavo died, her brother and sister were across the street in a thrift shop that served as the family's base in recent weeks. Her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, arrived about half an hour later" [17]
- "Around 9 a.m., Terri Schiavo was dead. Her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, were not on the hospice grounds. After some time, Michael Schiavo left and allowed the Schindler family to visit with her body. He told them they could take any item from the room that they wanted." [18]
- "Terri Schiavo's parents were not at the hospice at the time. Her brother and sister were in her room -- which was decorated with lilies and roses -- before she died. But Felos said that hospice personnel asked them to leave so that Terri could be examined." [19]
- I could site more sources, but I think you get the picture --220.220.184.249 06:14, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- The current article says,
- At 9:05 a.m. EST on March 31, 2005, Terri Schiavo died at the age of 41. According to the Schindlers' spokesperson, a few minutes before she died her parents and siblings were told to leave the room by her husband, Michael Schiavo. David Gibbs, the Schindlers' attorney, said the Schindlers were "with Terri up until ten minutes before she passed." They were allowed back into the room after she had died. [59] (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/31/schiavo.deathbed/)
- That CNN article that is cited clearly states that the siblings were in the room and the parents were on their way to the hospice after receiving word of Terri's condition. The parents were never told to leave the room because they were not in it with the siblings before Terri's passing. I suggest this this change should be made,
- According to a CNN article, a few minutes before she died her siblings were told to leave the room by her husband, Michael Schiavo. Terri's parents were also denied access to Terri's room when they were informed that this may be her last moments.
- I seriously believe this change should be made as it is central to the controversy regarding Michaels actions in Terri's last moments. Not allowing the parents to enter, while in itself is still wrong on Michael's part, is not as bad as forcing the parents to leave her bedside as this page reports. It is more factual to state it like this instead of how it currently is stated.--207.65.109.90 16:53, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Comments on Introduction
I re-wrote the introduction and removed the redundant material but a user has reverted it. If anyone one feels this is better you can restore it yourself as I do not have an interest in the subject. I was only trying to improve it. However the current intro is bias. I dislike this material: "Mrs. Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, who are both practicing Catholics" - why does her parents religion need to be in the intro? "after 13 days without a feeding tube." - this is an obvious attempt at POV to emphasize something already stated when the courts granted it earlier in the intro "husband's successful efforts to discontinue life support prompted a fierce debate over bioethics, euthanasia, legal guardianship, federalism, and civil rights, while overcoming active counter-efforts to keep her alive." - this paralell is a bad one, implying that others supported her "life" while her husband "supported" her death when in reality it was they supported the life support and he opposed it as artificial.
- Actually, it wasn't the lack of feeding tube that killed her, it was the lack of food and hydration by any means. Greer's two orders did not direct the removal of her feeding tube. Rather, they forbade giving her nutrition or hydrations by any means. He specifically forbade giving her food and water by mouth. The current text about "life support" is grossly inaccurate and blatantly POV-biased. NCdave 09:43, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- The parents beliefs are pertinent to the rest of the article, so I should be mentioned ASAP. "13 days" is a fact that is central to her death; removing it because its stated much later isn't logical because it is relevant information. You may have something regarding the context of the paragraph, but the husband wasn't opposed to it, he was following his Terry's wishes. It was she that was opposed to it. - RoyBoy 800 07:48, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- The strong evidence is that she never expressed such a wish. That's what Michael, himself, said, on numerous occasions, until he hired Felos in 1997. It is also what he implied when testifying under oath during the malpractice trial that he intended to care for Terri for the rest of his life. Michael even slipped up and admitted it again, a few weeks ago, on national television.[20] NCdave 09:43, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I disagree. This article isn't about the Schindlers, it's about Terri Schiavo. Her parents religion only figure into it in the sense that they had an argument stemming from natural law opposing the removal of the feeding tube; that belongs in the section about the Schindlers. I'm not sure what the last few sentences mean with the "...his Terry's[sic] wishes. It was she..." Is she Terri or Mary Schindler? Professor Ninja 16:53, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)
- True, but it certainly involves the Schindlers; and their possible motivation to keep Terry alive. As such it is pertinent to the fight over her life support. And I'm not sure what my last sentences meant either :'); the danger of writing late at night. The clarification I attempted to make was it isn't the husbands view on artificial life support that was his motivation, but Terri's view of it prior to her heart attack. - RoyBoy 800 18:37, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- The fact that Terri shared her parents' religion makes their religion pertinent. But the fact that she shared that religion should be stated, too. NCdave 09:43, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I understand, but I don't think it belongs right off the bat in the introduction. I also don't believe that Michael Schiavo's allegations belong in the first paragraph either. They're arguments advanced by both sides to further their particular cause, they're sort of peripheral to Terri; as far as the article is concerned, I think it's best if you just have Terri Schiavo's case in the intro. Professor Ninja 20:54, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)
Pronunciation
I've just removed and then replaced the claim that their name is pronounced /SHY-voe/. It does look unlikely to me — though Europeans are always cautious when it comes to U.S. pronunciation of names, as almost anything can turn out to be correct (as in the surnames 'Loux' and 'Proulx'). Is there any evidence that this is really how the family pronounces their name? I've found conflicting evidence on the Web (and see this discussion). Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:12, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Yes, Michael Schiavo says "I'm Michael SHY-VOE". He says it that way on the news each night. His lawyer pronounces it the same way, on the news. Each and every night. It doesn't matter, really, how Europeans or Americans feel they "ought to" pronounce the name; that's the way he pronounces it. Commentators have taken various politicians to task for "not bothering" to find out how to pronounce it "correctly" before voting on the bill to have the matter considered in the Federal judiciary. - Nunh-huh 21:22, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- See Talk:Terri Schiavo/archive7#Schiavo_pronunciation for the last discussion about the pronunciation of their name. The way Michael pronounces his name is the "correct" pronunciation to use when referring to him and his family. There's currently a note in the article that talks about how the name is pronounced in Italian - I think this should be deleted. It isn't relevant how someone else with the same name pronounces it. --Azkar 22:38, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Oh, and is the photograph really 'fair use'? On what grounds? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:16, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Last Rites
Someone asked, and I think it's been archived already, how Terri could receive Last Rites without confessing. Answer here. --Baylink 22:17, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
New York Times
The summary of the March 28 New York Times report does not match what the New York Times states, even though the paper's report appears muddled itself concerning "sale" and then "rent". Nevertheless, I did not read "that the Schindlers have compiled a list of people", so I think that should be rewritten. -Wikibob | Talk 02:42, 2005 Apr 2 (UTC)
- Unless you are saything that the NYT is lying outright, I think it can be said that since they are selling/renting this list to a direct marketing firm that it was compiled somehow. Now it may have very well been after the fact, or the list's original purpose may have been to coordinate rescue effots, but I can't see how it's not fair to say "the Schidler's compiled a list of people".--CVaneg 03:00, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Neurologists
Do we have a list of the neurologists and their medical opinions, yet? I believe there were at least eight who examined Schiavo and supported the PVS diagnosis. --Viriditas | Talk 11:05, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
link to some neurologists [21]
These are the names I could pull from the timeline: (holes are indicated)
- 1990
- Dr. Victor Gambone, Terri Schiavo's primary care physician for several years (diagnosis: PVS)
- Doctor who inserted thalamic stimulator
- 1991
- Dr. W. Campbell Walker performs a bone scan on Terri
- 1998
- Sept. 11: Dr. Jeffrey Karp neurologically evaluates Terri (see Terri Schiavo timeline)
- Forensic pathologist, Dr. Michael Baden, examines bone scan
- 2002:
- five doctors are selected to provide expert opinion
- Dr. Maxfield / radiologist (Shindler family doctor) (diagnosis: NOT PVS)
- Dr. Hammesfahr (diagnosis: NOT PVS)
- Dr. Ron Cranford (diagnosis: PVS)
- Dr. James Barnhill, selected by Michael (diagnosis: PVS)
- Dr. Peter Bambakidis, neurologist appointed by the court (diagnosis: PVS)
- Terri's parents cite affadavits of 33 physicians who watch video.
- 2 examined her in person. Who are the 2 who examined her in person? are are they talking about Maxfield and Hammesfahr again? or someone new?
- 1??
- 2??
- 2005
- from [22]
- dated Wed, Mar. 23, 2005
- Three florida neurologists view 12 CT scans, all three agree "About 70 to 90 percent of Schiavo's upper brain is gone"
- Dr. Leion Prockop "most severe brain damage I've seen."
- Dr. Walter Bradley "doubts there's any activity going on"
- Dr. Michael T. Pulley "The chance that this person is going to recover is about zero,"
- But Dr. William Chesire Jr., the neurologist who volunteers for the state abuse team, said in his affidavit that he visited with Schiavo for 90 minutes March 1 and did not agree that she was in a vegetative state. (diagnosis "minimally conscious state,") Cheshire sees patients at the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville and teaches at Trinity International University, a Christian institution. Cheshire, also trained in bioethics, graduated from and is an adjunct professor at Trinity University, and has written opinion articles on stem-cell research and other scientific debates espousing a conservative Christian viewpoint.
- Well, Dr. Cheshire is actually an Episcopalian, which is not normally considered a "conservative" denomination. But even if he were a fundamentalist, would it matter? Shall we add to the article the religious affiliations of all the doctors and lawyers involved in this case?
- I have the distinct impression that some people here think that being a Christian calls into question a person's judgment or integrity. I'd like to be proven wrong about that. NCdave 09:52, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Here's a link for a story that cites several of the doctors involved in the 2002 evidentiary hearing.
las vegas sun article --Minaflorida 21:55, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
TOC compression
I think the current table of contents is a little too large, especially the "recent developments" section (which, incidentally, may need a better title). Perhaps it should be condensed a bit? I would do it but thought I'd leave it to people active at this article. violet/riga (t) 14:17, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I've done some compression on "timeline" section to eliminate subsection "years" from main TOC. This shortened the long TOC pretty much. There is separte manual TOC in section "timeline". --Oblivious 22:16, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Explanation of Tony Sidaway's removal of two sections from this talk page
I've removed two sections from this talk page (see history) because of the rule that Wikipedia is not a soapbox, chatroom or discussion forum. I appreciate that the rights and wrongs of this affair are matters of great importance to all of us, and I think that those with opinions on the matter should express them. But not in this talk page, which is solely for discussion of this encyclopedia article. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 19:03, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- The POV-bias and inaccuracies of the the Wikipedia article are supposed to be discussed on the Discussion page. What Tony did was delete the contributions that identified and documented those problems, to enforce his POV. That is outrageous. NCdave 06:37, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
grammar, style, & links
I overhauled the artiucle in order to correct some pretty ropy grammar, and to bring links, etc., into Wikipedia style. In the mindless revert wars, my painstaking copy-edits were lost. I replaced them; they've gone again. I've better things to do than try to clean up this article against the wishes of other editors. It looks pretty embarrassingly amateurish in places (e.g., he 'awoke out of bed'), but if you're all happy with that, there's little I can do. I'll Unwatch it and let you all get on with it. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:48, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)
recent developments need rename
The "Recent Developments" section needs refactoring and renaming. Most of it is political or judicial maneuvaring. Perhaps call it "Government Involvment" or something. Not sure how much of it needs to be kept and how much could be whittled down. The parts "burial" and "autopsy" are the only parts directly about Terri and should be extracted to their own sections. FuelWagon 13:16, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The political history in the article (terri's law, Delay, George and Jeb Bush) take up almost half teh space. Anyone wanna take a stab at whittling it down? FuelWagon 17:49, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I just fixed up some stuff re the FL Legislature's actions because it was a bit inaccurate in how it referred to the different measures put forth by the House and Senate. I also added links to the bills. I just realized I wasn't signed in, though, so it just shows my ISP # or whatever that thing is called. (; Oopsie! I have made that little blurb longer than it was before, however. I'll try to tackle the "recent developments" section as a whole and make it a bit smaller. --Minaflorida 19:23, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
OK. I took a look at the recent developments section and the place that I think could use some whittling is the "Politicians" part. I don't want to go cutting things out that folks think should be in there, though. To me, it seems like most of the "these politicians sided with A, and these politicians sided with B" stuff is less relevant than the quotes that are there (which I think should stay) and the actual legala actions taken by these politicians. Thoughts? --Minaflorida 19:40, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, if the "who's side are they on" stuff was taken out and it was refactored to list only the actions which did have (or would have had) a direct impact on Terri, then maybe we could get it to a managable size. FuelWagon 20:45, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Here's what I'm thinking: I have taken a look at the Politicians section under recent developments and it has a few redundancies. The 1999 Texas bill Then-Gov. Bush signed is already covered in the U.S. Congress section. That seems out of place, so I would propose moving that bit of information to the "Politicians" section. Perhaps we could change the heading to "Political Implications" or "Political Division" or something like that. The "Politicians" sections contains some stuff that is not particularly relevant to Terri Schiavo's case. It seems odd to dwell on the fact that Tom DeLay removed his parents from life support. It does not seem relevant and, while I personally think the guy is a hypocrite, this doesn't seem like the appropriate place to point it out. Here's what I'd do to the "Politicians" section:
Some conservatives, such as former Representative Bob Barr, have expressed concern about the implications for federalism of a bill that involves the federal government in a matter traditionally left to the states. [41] (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=604895) Many Democrats have simply stayed away from the controversy. Especially outspoken Democratic congresspeople who have protested the federal intervention include Henry Waxman, Robert Wexler, Barney Frank, and Debbie Wasserman Schultz.
Republican House Representative Tom DeLay of Texas and Senator Bill Frist of Tennessee, a cardiac surgeon, spoke in favor of keeping Schiavo alive, as did President George W. Bush. Democratic Senators Tom Harkin and Kent Conrad have also supported federal intervention in the Schiavo case, although Republican Representative Dave Reichert was against it.
President Bush came under fire from right-to-die supporters, accused of having double-standards because as Governor of Texas he had personally signed into Texas law a right-to-die law, the Advance Directives Act. [40] (http://www.premack.com/Medical-Legal.htm) This law, one of only three in the nation, allows a hospital under certain circumstances to end life-prolonging measures even against a living will or the will of the patient's family.
On Schiavo's passing, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay said, "This loss happened because our legal system did not protect the people who need protection most, and that will change. The time will come for the men responsible for this to answer for their behavior, but not today. Today we grieve, we pray, and we hope to God this fate never befalls another." President Bush said "I appreciate the example of grace and dignity [the family has] displayed at a difficult time. I urge all those who honor Terri Schiavo to continue to work to build a culture of life where all Americans are welcomed and valued and protected, especially those who live at the mercy of others." [45] (http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050331/NEWS01/50331019/1002)
I have left in some of the "who they supprted" stuff since it seems to fall under the category of "Politics" and is probably important information for the reader to understand that this was anything but a partisan issue.
I would change the link for the Advance Care Directive, 1999 bill, because the old link is not functioning.
I am interested in getting feedback, because I don't want to impose my edit on everyone if it isn't satisfactory. I think it's important to leave in the federalism concerns as that's a huge part of this case's effect on the country as a whole and is the common ground for many conservatives and liberals re this case. Once I get some feedback, I will go ahead and make changes. Cheers!--Minaflorida 13:06, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Talk page archiving?
Am I the only one interested in doing this? The talk page is over 300kb in size. Mike H 09:10, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
- Archive inactive discussions, only. Don't archive active sections, of course. And don't just vandalize the Talk page by deleting all the stuff you don't like, as Tony did. I'm thoroughly disgusted by the repeated smears here of Terri's family, nurse Iyers, and the numerous M.D.s whose opinons differ from Greer/Felos/M.Schiavo, but I certainly would not try to censor expression of those opinions, no matter how repugnant. NCdave 18:53, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I've refactored and deleted a good amount of stuff this morning, the bits that seemed like they could be useful references were moved to archive 13, and the rest deleted. I'm sure all the regulars are familiar by now with what does and does not belong on the Talk page (and have made decisions for themselves as to whether they feel inclined to ignore those guidelines), but I'm such a fan of redundancy that I'm going to hit my favorite points again:
- Gathering information from diverse sources and then citing them to make the article inclusive is an encyclopedic function; gathering information from diverse sources and then attempting to structure and analyze them in order to a) bolster the claims of one side in a controversial article or b) convince editors that one of said sides is "correct or c) introduce original conclusions based on that analysis is not an encyclopedic function
- No Personal Attacks. It's worth noting that the Talk page is also not an appropriate place to commiserate with like-minded editors re: mutual disdain for any other party. Basically, piling on NCdave is not an appropriate response to his actions, and reatliatory personal attacks are no more or less a violation than the original attack.
Fox1 11:46, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Oh, also, Wikipedia seemed to be having some technical difficulties during this process, and I'm out of time to double-check my work. It's quite possible that in all the reloading, page not found errors, and resubmissions things I meant to keep went, and things that were suppose to go stayed. Hey, the beauty of Wiki is that someone will surely point out where I screwed the pooch, right?
- Fox1 11:49, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
POV enforcement on the Discussion page
Tony Sidaway and FuelWagon have systematically DELETED my contributions to this discussion, to enforce their POV. They've not archived anything, they've not limited their deletions to inactive conversations. They just delete what they don't like hearing.
Is everyone here okay with that? Or does SOMEONE besides me think that we ought to be able to discuss what is incorrect in the article, on the discussion page? NCdave 00:14, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I don't know why, but I'm picturing the Monty Python troupe going "Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!" I believe the person saying it was a mudslinger. life just brings those funny moments once in a while. Anyways, get a grip, man. This page is 200K long. I deleted some small sections about the timeline, grammar, quotation marks, all of which were no longer relevant for one reason or another. The timeline has been forked off, the section about "mourning", etc. The only thing that I recall deleting that was a current conversation was in the section titled "Neurologists" in which Viriditas asked for a list of all the neurologists who examined Terri, and the section went immediately off topic. Viriditas never got the name of a single neurologist. Instead, you were playing whack a mole with the top 10 things you ask us to disprove about the case and other nonsense. I deleted my comments as well, since they were not in answer to Viriditas's request either. So stop your belly-aching. I thought you'd be happy because I started a whole new section about Iyer's affadavit so that all the information contained in it could be examined in context. That's the source of your 'bitch gonna die' comment, ya know. You like bringing that one up a lot. And now it has its own complete section all to itself. Anyway, rather than play whack-a-mole logic games with you, I figured I'd take one specific topic, give it its own section and really flesh it out in the discussion section. That way Viriditas can get a list, and you can tell me how I'm smearing Iyer. Everyone gets their own section. Everyone's happy. maybe you could start a separate section about your radiologist friend who thinks all Democrats on the planet were trying to murder Terri. Then we can keep the individual pieces of nonsense to their respective section. Ya know, makes the clean up a lot easier that way. FuelWagon 01:07, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Actually, all of your edits are archived in the history section, NCdave, you can wade through and find the appropriate revision and create the archive if you really want (I'd warn you that in my opinion FuelWagon and Tony Sidaway did you a favour; everything out of your mouth is foolish, illogical, ramblingly poor hyperbole, or an outright lie, now at least some of that nonsense is tucked away). Anyway, keep trying NCdave, you've been hilariously and brutally proven absolutely wrong 100% of the time, but whatever. Professor Ninja 06:15, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
- No, professor, he didn't archive it, he just deleted it, to enforce his (and your) own POV. NCdave 14:45, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- you can see my deletes here:
- You should be able to go through the history and find Tony's cleanup and cut and paste it in the same archive. You can title it "Off topic conversations that NCdave thought important enough to archive" or whaever. FuelWagon 15:16, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Uh, maybe you missed the part that starts at the first word of my post where it says Actually, al of your edits are archived in the history section. Confusing, I know, but try to keep up. What you do is you go find those edits and archive them (that's the part of my post that continues off after the history section quote, followed by your name, to state you can wade through and find the appropriate revision and create the archive. Professor Ninja 16:31, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
NCdave's complaint is legitimate in that I haven't yet completed my promised paste to an archive file. I'll get onto it as soon as I can spare the time. IN the meantime, we have some slightly less cluttered talk page sections that actually, for the most part, discuss what they're supposed to be about. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 15:26, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Some things are so soapbox (something that, along with a few other egregious breaches of etiquette, wikipedia is not meant for) that they do not merit archiving. At all. They merit deletion. Wikipedia has finite resources, creating fork after fork of archives that do not merit archiving wastes those resources (I'm aware that the edits are saved, still, it's a chunk of change to make more). Some topics warrant archiving, even if they develop into a POV war (it happens, that doesn't mean the entire discussion is null, and topics shouldn't be surgically excised as a reply to a pointless discussion may have points to it and be rendered moot should that pointlessness be removed) but totally non-contributory nonsense just does not belong. Professor Ninja 16:31, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
The affidavits
Hiedi Law and Trudi Capone's affidavits were never presented as evidence. They were never brought to testify by the Schindlers, because it was obvious that the information they are trying to pass off as the truth is nonsense that would be shredded in a court of law. Just saying there are affidavits doesn't mean they're true. RickK 04:15, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
- Citation, please! On what basis to you accuse these ladies of perjuring themselves, and on what basis do you claim that their affidavits were never presented as evidence?
- Law and Capone swore that they made their statements on the basis of their own first-hand knowledge of what they saw and heard. What do you suppose would be their motivation for lying? Can you identify a conflict of interest? Did they stand to "realize a substantial and fairly immediate financial gain" from lying? (No, that was Michael Schiavo's conflict of interest and motivation for lying, as described in the report of Terri's guardian ad litem, Richard Pearse.)
- BTW, here are the two affidavits that you mentioned: (Heidi Law, CNA - affidavit) & (Trudi Capone, RN - affidavit)
- Also, these are corroborative: (Carolyn Johnson, CNA - affidavit), (Carla Iyer, RN - affidavit), (Cindy Shook, excerpts from affidavit). Also, Capone is corroborated by Michael's sworn testimony in the 1992 malpractice case that he intended to care for Terri for the rest of his life, and by Michael's remark on Larry King Live last month, and by the statements of two close friends of Terri's, Diane Meyer and Jackie Rhodes, who both recall that Terri had once expressed the strong opinion that Karen Ann Quinlan should not have been removed from a respirator.
- NCdave 07:23, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Never one to let a good lie go to waste, are you NCdave? The Larry King Live assertion dave and the other pathologically lying mutants has already been characterized in context quite adequately, including a post on this discussion page. Also, the pathological lie that dave again repeats (that Michael Schiavo stood to gain financial) has been thoroughly debunked -- he could have gained far more by divorcing her and dividing the assets, filing a lawsuit AFTER she died (in which case ALL money would go to him, and he would most likely receive punitive damages as well) or ACCEPTING THE $1M THAT WAS PUBLICALLY OFFERED TO HIM. -Professor Ninja
- I'm starting to believe that these people who keep pathologically advancing thoroughly obvious lies have some sort of psychosexual disorder wherein they envision the truth is an 11-year-old girl and that by lying they are "raping" the girl, thereby vicariously living out their pedophilic molestation fantasies. No other explanation I can come up with can explain away the dogged persistence of repeating lies that can so easily be caught. Professor Ninja 07:34, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
- I think that GAL Pearse made some errors (esp. w/r/t Terri's dubious PVS diagnosis), but he's not a "pathological liar." Those were his words that I quoted about Michael's financial motive to misrepresent Terri's wishes.
- Michael Schiavo first "remembered" that Terri would rather die than live in her disabled state in late 1997 or early 1998, after he hired Felos. That was about 7-1/2 or 8 years after Terri's first hospitalization, but it was also at least 7 years before he was offered $1M to let Terri's parents care for her. GAL Pearse correctly noted in 1998 that Michael would "realize a substantial and fairly immediate financial gain" if Terri died, and that was one of the reasons that he said he found Michael's belated memory not credible. At that time the "substantial" gain that Michael would have realized was approximately 3/4 of a million dollars, from Terri's medical trust account. Since Michael could not have predicted that 7 years later some millionaire would offer him $1M to let Terri live, and Michael could not even know that he would outlive her, you can't logically argue that when he announced his "memory" there was any means other than Terri's death by which "he could have gained far more."
- However, you are quite right that Michael Schiavo persisted in claiming that Terri had made such statements even as his financial incentive for seeking her death dwindled (as he spent Terri's medical trust account on his lawyer fees), and then disappeared entirely (when the millionaire offered him $1M to give up guardianship). If money were his sole motivation in 2005, then he surely would have taken the $1M.
- So it appears that his motives changed as time went on. By late 1999, at least one of his motives was spite. He hated his in-laws, and wanted revenge for "putting [him] through pretty much hell." At least, that's approximately what he said in a deposition on September 27, 1999, when questioned by an attorney for the Terri's parents about why he would not let them assume guardianship of Terri:
Page 48-49 Q. Have you considered turning the guardianship over to Mr. and Mrs. Schindler? SCHIAVO: No, I have not. Q. And why? SCHIAVO: I think that's pretty self explanatory. Q. I'd like to hear your answer. SCHIAVO: Basically I don't want to do it. Q. And why don't you want to do it? SCHIAVO: Because they put me through pretty much hell the last few years. Q. And can you describe what you mean by hell? SCHIAVO: The litigations they put me through. Q. Any other specifics besides the litigation? SCHIAVO: Just their attitude towards me because of the litigations. There is no other reason. I'm Terri's husband and I will remain guardian.
- Then his lawyer (Felos) asked for a private word with his client:
Mr. Felos: There may be a question or two of clarification. Can I have just a minute to talk with my client?
- Then we have Felos's cross-examination:
Page 51 Felos: You were also asked a question about resigning as guardian or would you consider that. Upon reflection, is there anything that you want to add in response to that question? SCHIAVO: Yeah. Another reason would be that her parents wouldn't carry out her wishes.
- NCdave 08:57, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Addendum: Haha, oh lord. If you go to the site dave offered as "proof" of the Larry King Live transcript cock up (http://www.burtonsys.com/terri_schiavo.html#LKL) you'll find it's none other than Dave's own site. He offers up the exact same "proof", word for word, as on this wikipedia talk page. He's obviously doing it to give weight (not much, he's got it signed "-Dave" at the bottom) to his fallacious claims by making it appear as an outside source, as otherwise for somebody who constantly complains about talk pages not being archived, he'd just link to the archives instead of an outside, pseudo-source. This isn't much different than him offering up "proof" of Dr. Hammesfahr's credentials by just asking Dr. Hammesfahr ("yeah, did you lie before?" "no." "are you lying now?" "no.") when a 30-second check to the Nobel institute debunked that bull mighty fast. Again, do not, for the love of God people, believe any of Dave's lies, and when you find one, debunk it with proof. I know it's a perverted game, but we can't allow anybody to be roped into his nonsense. Professor Ninja 07:55, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
- Cummon, Ninja - I never suggested that my little terri_schiavo.html web page was an "outside source." My name and email address are at the top! There used to be a good collection of references in the Wikipedia article on Terri Schiavo, but partisans for Michael Schiavo's POV deleted almost all of them. So when I need to cite references to prove a point about one of the inaccuracies in the Wikipedia article, I can't refer the Wikipedia article anymore, and it is a lot more efficient & concise to point to the relevant part of my little web page than to duplicate it all here. NCdave 08:57, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I listed Iyer's allegations from her affadavit in the timeline article, along with some of the facts that conflict with her claims. I believe I limited it to the facts. Please correct anything you see that strays from the facts. FuelWagon 13:19, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Citation of what? That they never came to court? How do I cite that they never did something? Please give me a single citation where they were ever in court and testified? RickK 22:21, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
- RickK, you made two allegations: That these ladies perjured themselves, and that their affidavits were never used in court. By citation, I mean what was your source? Who said those two things, which led you to believe them?
- Your request that I do an exhaustive search of all the trial records to find these things is presumptuous. You made the accusations, you need to support them, not me! But... maybe I can help... this is from my imperfect memory, but... wasn't the Heidi Law affidavit one of nine affidavits used in the Schindler's unsuccessful petition to get Judge Greer to permit the swallowing therapy and swallowing tests that GAL Wolfson recommended? NCdave 08:49, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Usage of fact,alleged,disputed,claimed
A finding of the court is not a fact. This case is unusual in the amount of testimony and evidence which was not presented to the court, or presented but failed to meet the standard of clear and convincing. A lot of findings of the district court were disputed and so much so that a federal law was passed enabling federal jurisdiction for the purpose of reversing the court-ordered withdrawal of nutrition and hydration to allow Terri to live pending a de novo review. I hope that where it's been reported that a finding of the court or guardian ad litem was disputed by the Schindlers in their pleadings and public statements it may recorded in the article as disputed.
The court record of any case is not the only information useful to the Wikipedia reader and gratutitous removal of these real disputes with the findings of the district court made by the Schindlers renders the article inaccurate. A good article would present in summary form the significant disputes which influenced much of the public to support the legislation advocated by the Schindlers and cast doubt on the fairness of the findings of Judge George Greer.
Alleged is another term. It refers to an accusation that is pending some legal determination. There are a few places in the article and in the talk page where doubt is expressed by the author: claimed rather than alleged is a better word.
Rather than go through perpetual cycles of add/remove, it would be better to come to a consensus how the specific claims of the Schindlers can appear in the article and be labeled as being in opposition to the findings of the trial court, or ultimately not addressed in any court because of procedural rules preventing their review. patsw 12:44, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- You're entirely right, Patsw, and I thank you for your contribution. But in the future please sign and date your contributions.
- The easy way to do that is to add four tildes ("~~~~") to the end of your message. The ~~~~ will be automatically translated into an ID and date/time, like this:
- NCdave 07:29, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Nothing like a good pathological lie, eh Dave? By being "entirely right", he must surely be right in saying that "Alleged" is another term... refer[ing] to an accusation that is pending some legal determination. It means nothing of the sort, it means a statement offered without proof. This is just another tedious example in your bizarre quest against the truth. You know there's plenty of Bible verses against that, right? Professor Ninja 08:30, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
- Don't bother, FuelWagon. Honestly, I think the entire editorial spectrum that's come into contact with NCdave deserves a wifflebat barnstar by now. He'll dance around it and... yech. It's not even worth trying, I've become so agitated I've (very wrongly, I admit) turned to the simple sport of just baiting him and then corrected his wholly invented allegations.
- Something can be both alleged and claimed. Either word fits before the dismissal of charges or verdict of not guilty: "The police claimed Smith was the burglar" or "The police alleged Smith was the burglar." After a guilty plea or verdict of guilty it is not correct to say "The police alleged Smith was the burglar" because the allegation was proven and being a criminal case, proven beyond reasonable doubt, "Smith was the burglar" is the correct usage by every style manual I've ever seen. Smith, of course, can claim in an appeal to the court or to the public that he's not the burglar, but he's wrong to insist upon the label of alleged. To consider the dismissal or verdict of not guilty -- A witness can no longer allege that Smith is the burglar but can still claim it to be so, disputing the finding of the court. In an article like the one we are discussing, the distinction is important -- between what's in the public record which was part of the legal process (i.e. the allegations) and what was never subjected to legal review.
- My main point which I don't want to be obscured is that we arrive at a consenus on how to represent in the wiki the claims, doubts, and contradictions made in court filings and the public record by the Schindler's, witnesses, friends of the court, etc. so that they are not gratuitously deleted merely because they are not the findings of the district court. patsw 13:48, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Nobody was being charged in a criminal proceeding; only civil cases were involved; beyond which the civil case is often extraneous to the allegations (ie: they have nothing to do with legality, they are just allegations) -- therefore the word alleged is fine to use. The reason why much of this stuff gets deleted is not because it's an allegation, or it's not the findings of the court, it's because it's patent nonsense put in in a vandalism format. Professor Ninja 13:55, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
- What stuff which is a allegation of error, doubt, or contradiction of the district court findings, guardian ad litem reports, etc. made by the Schindler's, witnesses, and friends of the court which is part of the public record can be entered in the wiki without you deleting it as vandalism? I'd like to have a consensus on that from people who are actively deleting stuff. I'm opposed to vandalism as well. patsw 14:35, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Why not check the history of the page and see what gets reverted as vandalism -- it's put in inappropriate places; it's offered up as proof positive; it doesn't document its refutations or counterclaims; it is used to rephrase or rebut other criticisms by couching itself entirely inside them. That's what the vandals have engaged in, that's what's been reverted. Professor Ninja 14:42, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
- The purpose of having a consensus is so that we know what the editors believe to be vandalism and what is a contribution to the page based on the public record. Jredmond's revert of 14:26 7 April 2005 deleted a sentence and a link to the sworn statement of Dr. Cheshire. Whether you agree or disagree with it, it forms a relevant part of the public record of the case because that statement was publicized and discussed during the public debate in March. So I would argue it's vandalism to delete it.
- So rather than adding/deleting in a loop, let's work on a consensus how allegations of error, doubt, or contradiction of the district court findings, guardian ad litem reports, etc. made by the Schindler's, witnesses, and friends of the court which is part of the public record which were discussed on talk radio, television and blogs in March and earlier enter into wiki without being deleted. patsw 15:02, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- How was entering the results of the Zogby poll vandalism, but the results of the CBS News poll not vandalism? patsw 15:02, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I fully reverted the vandal's edits, as did Jredmond. If the information in it is good it should not be added as vandalism or by a vandal. If they include useful information after repeatedly vandalising the page with garbage, it gets reverted. If somebody else wants to add it legitimately, that's fine. Professor Ninja 15:06, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
- I didn't revert the Zogby poll, though, because while the language could have been NPOV-ified further (IMHO), the poll itself was still relevant and substantiated. The only thing I reverted was the "she wasn't really in a PVS" bit because it was combative and there was no substantiation (and because the anon user deliberately removed my HTML comment insisting on a link). - jredmond 15:11, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Addendum: After examining the IP vandal's edits, I also found that the Zogby poll is heavily, well, unscientific. It 1) Leads readers with deliberately misleading statements 2) polls based on information extraneous to the case, 2) You may notice from their homepage that they share a common (ad) market with sites like NewsMax and (the most damning of all) 3) reweighs the numbers (their exact terminology is "[s]light weights were added to region, party, age, race, religion, and gender to more accurately reflect the voting population.") without disclosing what the weight formulation is. So we have a clearly biased polling site conducting a poll on behalf of an interest group purposely asking misleading questions that don't support the conclusion of the argument (ie: [24] does not support the conclusions here: [25]). None but two of the questions are pertinent or direct; they're specifically used to soften up the target audience and create an association between Terri Schiavo and minorities/disabled rights/etc and Michael Schiavo and a bastard. The two pertinent questions are: "Elected officials should intervene to protect a disabled person’s right to live if there is conflicting testimony concerning removing a feeding tube?" -- which demonstrates according to their own numbers that 54% of people disagree with this. The other is "Hearsay be allowed as evidence in the case of determining if a feeding tube should be removed?" to which 57% disagree. It's been documented that the affidavits of many of the Schindlers' supporters are hearsay (ie: "when's the bitch gonna die?", for one), but they paint the results that they want in a way they want (that is, to imply that because unfounded contrary allegations of a non-PVS state have been presented, the sound medical evidence is thereby "hearsay"). On the other hand, CBS news wasn't solicited by any interest group to conduct their results, and they did not "reweigh" the results to give them a particular skew (this completely bastardizes the highly accurate population curve of random sampling.) Hope that helps. Professor Ninja 15:24, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
If someone feels that the Zogby poll is unscientific, then I say the criticisms of the poll should be included in the article.
I do not read where a consensus was reached to remove the poll. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) I recognize that earlier mentions of the poll probably contained POV language. (At [26] I personally changed someone's statement that the Zogby poll had "fairer" questions.) I'm going to put it back in; pending discussion here can challenge the wording and/or the inclusion.
At Wikipedia, we don't decide what is truth. We report that people said something was truth. Jdavidb 17:37, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I don't understand what the relevance is if Professor Ninja finds the Zogby poll unscientific. The poll is a significant part of the public record on Terri Schiavo and her impact upon public policy as it stands. There could be a equally lengthy analysis of the methodology of the CBS News poll and the wording of its questions. If I found that poll to be unscientific would I be justified in deleting it from the article using the same rationale as Professor Ninja? There are plenty of discussion boards and blogs to argue for or against their accuracy. Both polls are a significant part of the public record and ought to be in the article. Which takes me back to asking for a consensus regarding what gets deleted. The history of deletions in the article has many deletions which seem arbitrary to me in addition to the ones which are obvious vandalism. patsw 16:10, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Part of the poll I read had a question that basically took Terri's situation, removed the fact that she's PVS, and said "would you stop life support". Not surprisingly, most people said "no". But it's completely friggen irrelevant to Terri. Look up Strawman Attack. One side presents a weakened view of the opposing side, so that it is easier to knock down. That kind of crap does not deserve to be in an encyclopedia article about Terri, maybe an article about life support and right to die, but NOT Terri, since THAT WASN"T HER SITUATION. FuelWagon 17:35, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I don't find it unscientific, it is unscientific. Random sampling is scientific (barely), reweighing random sampling is unscientific, and reweighing the samples without disclosing the weight formula is grossly so. Professor Ninja 16:18, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
- And playing the "twist the logic" game, how about this? If I state in the public record (say, I go sign an affidavit and have the justice of the peace notarize it) that martians hired an unknown wikipedia user that goes by the soubriquet patsw to murder Terri Schiavo and fake her cremation but really eat her body to gain her power, that would be a matter of public record involving terri schiavo. Would it belong in the article? If you say no, state why. It is a matter of public record, after all. Sure it's grossly unscientific, misleading, purposefully deceptive, but it's a matter of public record. If you say sure it belongs, it's a matter of public record, I'll drive down to the courthouse today and do just that. Professor Ninja 16:30, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
- Ninja, w/r/t Zogby being a "a clearly biased polling site," you must not know that John Zogby is a Democrat, who, on the eve of the 1994 election, predicted a Kerry landslide in the electoral college.
- Also, Ninja, you seem to have missed the significance of the question about whether hearsay should be allowed as evidence when determining whether a feeding tube should be removed. The only evidence that Terri had ever expressed a preference to die rather than live in a disabled state was hearsay. Specifically, Michael's sudden "memory" of Terri's remark, 7-1/2 or 8 years after she supposedly made it, was hearsay.
- When he remembered it, he had a $3/4 million incentive to want Terri's death, so his testimony about her remark was not just hearsay, it was hearsay colored by a conflict of interest. I wonder what answers Zogby would have gotten if he'd asked about that?
- Plus, Michael's hearsay testimony was inconsistent with his own previous testimony in the 1992 malpractice trial (not hearsay).
- Plus, Michael's hearsay testimony (colored by conflict of interest) was in conflict with the hearsay testimony of four other people, none of whom had any conflict of interest. NCdave 16:20, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- That horse is so dead, maggots are flying every time you hit it. FuelWagon 17:35, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Wait, I just saw that. By "four other poeple", do you mean "Iyer"????? WOOT! Her affadavit is already spelled out in the timeline. Greer was right its garbage. Your funny, man. FuelWagon 17:44, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- The four other people are Trudi Capone, Cindy Shook (Brasher), Diane Meyer and Jackie Rhodes. (Plus, of course, Michael, himself, in his 1992 civil trial testimony and on Larry King Live.) [27] [28] [29] [30]
- BTW, does anyone know whether Jackie Rhodes and Jackie Adams are the same person? In 1992, Michael Schiavo testified that Terri's best friend was a co-worker named "Jackie Adams." I think that Jackie Rhodes was (in 1990) married and was named "Jackie Adams," but I can't seem to find confirmation of that. Can anyone say for certain whether Jackie Rhodes is Terri's best friend, the former Jackie Adams? NCdave 21:08, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- So he's a democrat, so what? It's a clearly biased polling site. I know in your fantasy world of pathological lies, you believe that political affiliation determines honesty; thankfully the rest of teh world doesn't behave that way. You can see it's NewsMax-esque "rag" bias by the fact that they share advertisers, advertisers appeal to core demographics -- therefore they share a core demographic.
- And? The significance is about hearsay; they're attempting to characterize the conclusion of it towards a specific bias, that is, that Michael Schiavo is wrong. Furthermore, you also attempt to characterize Michael Schiavo here -- he only proceeded to attempt to remove life support after it was recommended by Terri's physician. He may very well have only needed to state that she wouldn't want to live in a hopeless state when her own physician assured him that the state was indeed hopeless. This is, again, absolute fact. Your need to lie is just bizarre. Professor Ninja 16:30, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
- Remember, Michael Schiavo & George Felos chose Terri's doctors. Dr. Cranford, for example, was chosen because he always recommends that patients be starved/dehydrated to death.
- Terri's family had several physicians who believed they could help her, but Michael Schiavo and George Felos wouldn't let them try. Terri had no therapy at all, of any kind, for over 12 years, by Michael Schiavo's orders. Even GAL Wolfson recommended swallowing therapy and swallowing tests for her, but M.Schiavo/Felos/Greer would not permit it.
- Wolfson was predisposed to favor M.Schiavo's viewpoint, because shortly before being appointed GAL he told the local press that he thought Terri's feeding tube should be removed. Judge Demers appointed Wolfson Oct. 31, 2003 despite objections filed in court on Oct. 25 and Oct. 29 by Terri's parents.
- Wolfson's report, issued a month later, erred in favor of the M.Schiavo/Felos viewpoint in several ways:
- Wolfson accepted the PVS diagnosis, despite the disagreement of many physicians, and despite the fact that Terri was getting analgesics to relieve menstural pain every month, and the fact that PVS patients cannot experience pain.
- Wolfson reported that Terri got physical therapy until 1994, even though there are no medical records of any therapy of any kind after 1992. (Wolfson's conclusion was presumably on the basis of M.Schiavo's representations.)
- Wolfson reported that Terri had never had a bedsore, even though Michael's own 1992 testimony in the medical malpractice case indicated that Terri had had a toe amputated because of bedsores.
- Wolfson accepted M.Schiavo's belated recollection of Terri's supposed wishes, even though GAL Pearse had found M.Schiavo's recollection not credible.
- Yet, in spite of his predisposition to favor M.Schiavo/Felos viewpoint, Wolfson nevertheless recommended swallowing therapy for Terri. However, Felos/M.Schiavo would not permit it, and Greer dismissed the family's petition asking that it be done. NCdave 21:08, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Sen. Martinez confirms his office produced the talking points memo
Yeah, pretty self-explanatory (cite). So, if anybody's wondering about the update, that's that. I'll be updating the article as necessary, I don't feel like getting into this imbroglio again over it.
Sorry, that comment was mine. Professor Ninja 11:53, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
- Redacted; apparently some problems with Firefox are keeping my article from updating properly. Somebody already beat me to it. I was wondering why it wasn't in there. Professor Ninja 11:56, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
- The article states that the memo was circulated among Republican senators. According to the Washington Times this has been denied in a interview with each Republican senators. Martinez says that he gave it to Harkin whom he believed to be an ally in the debate, and that Martinez did not distribute it to Republican senators. Is this explanation being disputed? patsw 21:48, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- As written now the article states there's a dispute regarding Darling's authorship. Darling admitted writing it. Who is claiming that Darling is not the author at this point? patsw 00:39, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Where does the article state a dispute regarding authorship? In your immortal(ly annoying) words, define "dispute". In a couple of sources [31] [32] I don't see anything about Darling admitting to writing it. I see Martinez stating that somebody wrote it and was subsequently dismissed, which is exactly what the article reflects. Professor Ninja 00:47, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
- The first sentence of the article already linked in the wiki [33] starts "The legal counsel to Sen. Mel Martinez (R-Fla.) admitted yesterday that he was the author of a memo". There is no dispute that Darling is the author and I will edit accordingly.
- My bad, I hadn't seen that MSNBC link. I was under the impression it was one of those shifty scapegoating affairs that may be true, may not (hell, it still may be true, it may be true that NCdave's right and Michael Schiavo was out to murder Terri, but Darling's admission stands as it is.) Regardless, the fact that Mel Martinez says he did not see the memo is still questionable, and should not be stated as fact. However it should be noted Harkin believed him to be acting in good faith. Professor Ninja 04:23, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
replacing non-normal text
65.248.224.93 just replaced a large number of plain text with formatted text - " with & #8220; (not sure what the equivalent code for "nowiki" would be), for example. I am inclined to revert these changes because the hurt the readability/editability of the article. As I understand, the point of wiki syntax (rather than HTML, for example) is that it produces more naturally readable code. Am I correct in my interpretation? Guettarda 16:13, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- The &8220/8221 is HTML for curly quotes, which, according to the Wikipedia:Manual of Style, should not be used: "Use straight quotation marks and apostrophes. For uniformity and to avoid complications use straight quotation marks and apostrophes ( ' " ) not curved (smart) ones, grave accents or backticks ( ‘ ’ “ ” ` )." Therefore, I agree that they should all be reverted. Flyers13 01:08, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Dr. Ronald Cranford
I don't know how to add or augment any Wikipedia articles, but I did want to contribute the following articles written by Dr. Ronald Cranford. It is only fair that if we impugn Dr. Hammesfahr for his shenanigans, then the other medical experts in the case are open to scrutiny as well.
Commentary: When a feeding tube borders on the barbaric [34]
Cranford advocates expanding feeding tube withdrawal criteria to Alzheimer's patients.
The More You Suffer, The Longer You Live [35]
Cranford argues that even if a patient is minimally conscious, he/she should be denied nutrition and hydration if the family so wishes it (the Wendland case is mentioned in passing), and that economic factors should play a more significant role in whether or not to continue medical treatment.
Also, Dr. Cranford's biography page [36] at the University of Minnesota's website lists him being on the Board of Directors for the Choice in Dying organization [37] since 1992. Choice in Dying became Partnership for Caring: America's Voices for the Dying [38] in 2000.
Finally, if anyone can find a case where Dr. Cranford has, in the last 20 years, advocated that a particular patient should be kept alive, I would like the evidence for my compilation on the Terri Schiavo case. Thank you, and I apologize for any imposition on my part.
- Not really imposition at all; very helpful. I think it's perfectly acceptable to characterize the opinions of the doctors in this case (doctors are open to a fair appeal to authority, so characterizing it in the context of "well, what else did you expect them to say, this is their consistent position" (though less POV) is totally acceptable and welcome). However, we must be careful what we select as criticism for either side. The main question is, "is it relevant?" If Mr. Cranford advocates in particular cases, those may not be relevant to the current case (if they're thoroughly dissimilar). However, the Alzheimer's case, for example, or at least your summary of it, seems a good example.
- Basically, just toss it up to a basic logic test. If it's logical and pertinent, go for it, if it's non sequitur or irrelevant, refrain. And make sure you put it where it belongs, if you do put it in. Otherwise, be bold. Professor Ninja 18:04, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
- The timeline says Cranford is a proponent of Euthenasia. I put it in there. I don't have a problem saying the same in the main article. However, saying "you pick on Hammesfahr, you should pick on everyone" doesn't quite fly because, the court never ruled Cranford's "therapies" to be non-standard/questionable/whatever, the courts DID rule that with Hammesfahr. I've been trying to clean up the medical opinions section. I'll put it in there in one of the next passes. (may not have time right now) FuelWagon 18:08, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- True, but I think that it does note that some of the Schindler's doctors are distinctly right-to-lifers. Hammesfahr's out there, but the reasoning of Cranford's inclusion (if a bit off the mark) is sound. Professor Ninja 22:28, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
- If it is to be mentioned that Dr. Cheshire spent only 90 minutes with Terri, to reach his conclusion of MCS (not PVS), then it should also be mentioned that Dr. Cranford spent only 45 minutes to reach his conclusion of PVS. NCdave 09:14, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Zogby poll
The Zogby poll has been in and out, with and without POV commentary. But a consensus has not been reached in this discussion page as to whether it should be here.
Some have asserted that the poll is unscientific, but it is still being widely reported in the media. This article should report the fact that the anti-euthanasia side is using this poll to advance their cause, as well as the objections that have been offered about the poll.
The poll did happen, and it's in the news. The reasons that people are giving on this talk page for removing the poll are instead things that should be added into the article about the poll. It is not for Wikipedia to decide whether or not the poll was scientific or unscientific. Report the facts. Jdavidb 18:32, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- No, James, this is an encyclopedia and not everything belongs here. You might have more fun on wikinews if you're trying to be a reporter. (note: I have not yet looked at the Zogby poll, my comment is directed at your last paragraph only) →Vik Reykja 18:58, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Who is James?
I'll agree not everything belongs here. The question is whether the fact that the poll occurred is encyclopedic. I'd say that question is already answered by the inclusion of the previous polls. Jdavidb 19:06, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Your recent additions are not exactly neutral - "estranged" husband? That has been debated and resolved several times on the talk page - the consenus is that that is POV. In addition, you shouldn't just say "asked different questions" without at least explaining how the questions were different. Guettarda 19:19, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Anyone who thinks that it is POV rather than simple fact that M.Schiavo was estranged from Terri needs to consult a dictionary (click on the word "estranged"). We've been over this ground before, and it has been well and truly proven that Michael was about as completely estranged from his wife as it is possible for a man to be. He has been living in open adultery with other women, on and off, for over 13 years! He has been living with his current girlfriend for nearly 10 years. He has two children with her. He has been referring to her as his "fiancee" since 1997. That's inarguably estranged. NCdave 21:38, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- The definition at your link says; "separated from a spouse: no longer living with a husband or wife." So by the construction of that definition that by virtue of Terri having been living in either a nursing home or hospice for the previous thirteen or so years the weren't living together you might be correct...in that limited construction. However, in another dictionary one of the two definitions has quite a pejorative sense; 2 : to arouse especially mutual enmity or indifference in where there had formerly been love, affection, or friendliness with synonyms of alienated and disaffected.
- Now, if I'd never read another post of yours I might be inclined to think that you had inadvertantly meant the separated from version and just misused the word althogether. However, you have earned no such consideration and it is abundantly clear that you are trying to connote alienated and disaffected in your use of estranged where there isn't a shred of evidence to suggest either. I don't know whether he was there every day, and I challenge you to prove he wasn't, but the time that I'm aware he did spend there sure indicates they weren't estranged in the commonly held meaning of the word. It's just another example of your continued efforts to smear Michael Schiavo because you don't like what happened. LRod 216.76.216.103 23:25, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- The adjective "estranged" can be applied to various words, but when applied to the word "husband" or "wife," it does not mean that the husband and wife are in active opposition to one another. It is a simple descriptive term implying separation, which can be due to either alienation or indifference. Anyone who has moved away from his wife, and moved in with another woman, with whom he is having children, is, by definition, and beyond argument, "estranged" from his wife.
- dictionary.cambridge.org says:
- estranged. adjective. 1 describes a husband or wife who is not now living with the person they are married to: his estranged wife
- "Estranged" is the correct word to use for a man who has lived with another woman for a decade (not his first post-Terri girlfriend, btw), and has two children by her. We could add adulterous, but that, while accurate, seems unnecessarily judgmental. The purpose is descriptive: it is important to qualify "husband" so that readers don't wrongly picture the normal sort of husband (who lives with his wife), which Michael Schiavo certainly is not.
- dictionary.cambridge.org says:
- Not to mention the fact that "estranged" has no legal definition while "husband" does. Professor Ninja 23:31, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
- If anybody wants a real dictionary definition, try here ([t]hese verbs refer to disruption of a bond of love, friendship, or loyalty. Estrange and alienate are often used with reference to two persons whose harmonious relationship has been replaced by hostility or indifference...) Wonder why NCdave took the more circuitous definition, huh? By wonder, I mean understand it to be the same reason he attempted to forge Hammesfahr's credentials for him, why he bemoans "hearsay" yet freely repeats that Michael did in fact say "when's that bitch gonna die" -- etc., etc. Because he's a pathological liar that thinks rapind and murdering the truth in the name of his perverted version of Jesus is acceptable. Professor Ninja 23:36, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
- Also, there is considerable evidence that Michael was physically abusing Terri prior to her collapse: a bone scan showing that she had suffered numerous traumatic injuries, which she concealed from her friends and family (a classic pattern in domestic abuse cases), the testimony of her friend and co-worker, Jackie Rhodes (was she named Jackie Adams at the time?) that Terri often had bruises on her upper arms and thighs), and the testimony of both of Terri's siblings to Michael's history of violent explosions of temper directed at them. [39] [40] [41] [42]. Plus, there is overwhelming evidence that Michael abused Terri even in the first few years after her injury.[43] [44]. Moreover, in the weeks prior to Terri's injury, according to three different witnesses (her mother, brother, and co-worker Jackie), Terri had said that she was considering or intending to divorce Michael. [45] [46].
I'm using previous wording. I did not realize that that term had been deemed POV. Still, the fact that some incarnations of this fact have had POV text is not a reason to eliminate it entirely.
I'm about to go look at the article again and see if the poll has been removed yet again, without a consensus here on the talk page. Jdavidb 21:18, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- If the reason for deleting the Zogby poll is a personal opinion or published reports of its inaccurarcy, the same criteria could be applied to the CBS News poll. So what's the consensus regarding the inclusion of a poll? I offer that both polls were widely reported and are being used to influence popular opinion and public policy and therefore are significant and relevant to the Terri Schiavo story. patsw 19:44, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I see that the paragraph has been cleaned up to eliminate "estranged" and other POV wording. (Thanks, Macdougal.) It's been left alone for the past few edits, but no way to tell whether that is through agreement or oversight. :) Does everyone (or anyone) agree with the present wording? It specifically points out that the poll did not specify the disability. I think those who have opposed the inclusion of the paragraph probably still have more to add. I think those objections to the poll should be included with the paragraph. Jdavidb 21:23, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
John Zogby is a Democrat, who, on the eve of the 1994 election, predicted a Kerry landslide in the electoral college. The only reason to suppose that Zogby's polls are biased in favor of the Schindlers is that they don't show the results that some people want. NCdave 21:38, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- This has already been done to death. I'll explain my reasons again. First of all, NCdave's idiotic assertion that Zogby's a Democrat, therefore, he supports Michael Schiavo's POV is as easily refuted as his expounding on the Hammesfahr credentials, the Iyer affidavit, etc.: Jesse Jackson, Democrat, supported Terri Schiavo[47][48]. Similarly, there's been Republican opposition to the Schiavo bills. The reasonable conclusion is that therefore, in any place that isn't the confused and angry jumble of NCdave's mind, these biases are independent of primary political party affiliation.
- Furthermore, the poll is an absolute lie. For example, at the poll proper, read over certain sections. Stuff like this: "By a two-to-one (44% to 24%) margin, with one-in-three (32%) undecided, the survey finds that an incapacitated person should be presumed to want to live in the absence of written instructions such as a “living will.”". Not so, at all. I don't know why he'd even put this in there, out of the eight questions asked, not one was that question or a question related to it. It is also a strawman argument couched in a poll. It is proper for the federal government to intervene when basic civil rights are being denied? conjures memories of Martin Luther King Jr. or troopers intervening on behalf of black students. Nobody thinks of Terri Schiavo because, alas, the removal of life support is a common practice that does not violate a person's basic civil rights; it's bioethically justified in courts and legislatures repeatedly, and practiced daily. The representative branch of governments should intervene when the judicial branch appears to deny basic rights to minorities? again, same as above. Being in a PVS doesn't make you a minority. Michael Schiavo should turn guardianship of Terri over to her parents, considering he has had a girlfriend for 10 years and has two children with her? False dichotomy -- either Michael Schiavo can have no girlfriend and remain guardian, OR he can have a girlfriend but not be guardian. The law should provide exceptions to the right of a spouse to act as the guardian for his or her incapacitated spouse? Conclusion isn't supported by the premise, again. This is misleading. The law does, in fact, provide exceptions to the right of a spouse to act as the guardian. Schiavo met none of those criteria. Therefore he remained so. It is proper for the federal government to intervene when disabled people are denied food and water by a state court judge’s order? again, sweeping strawman generalization here. "It is proper for the federal governmnt to intervene when disabled people are denied oxygen by a state court judge's order?", for example, adequately describes the "disabled" (ie: comatose or worse) people who have respirators removed from them, but most people recognize it as the joke question that it is. "The representative branch of governments should intervene when the judicial branch appears to deny basic rights to the disabled?" Again, same thing. Last two questions of the poll are at least semi-pertinent.
- In another portion of the site[49] we have this: ""If a disabled person is not terminally ill, not in a coma, and not being kept alive on life support, and they have no written directive, should or should they not be denied food and water," the poll asked." A whopping 79 percent said the patient should not have food and water taken away while just 9 percent said yes." & "The Zogby poll found that, if a person becomes incapacitated and has not expressed their preference for medical treatment, as in Terri's case, 43 percent say "the law presume that the person wants to live, even if the person is receiving food and water through a tube" while just 30 percent disagree." Actually, those numbers or questions don't appear in the poll. At all, anywhere[50]. Why outright fabrications are reprinted on Zogby's own site are... well, I don't know, he likes attention?
- MOST DAMNING OF ALL, HOWEVER, IS THIS: Zogby International conducted interviews of 1019 likely voters nationwide on behalf of the Christian Defense Coalition. All calls were made from Zogby International headquarters in Utica, N.Y., March 30 through April 2, 2005. The margin of error is +/-3.2 percentage points. Slight weights were added to region, party, age, race, religion, and gender to more accurately reflect the voting population. Margins of error are higher in sub-groups. Yeah, so, there we have it. Rather than the random sampling of 1019, they have readjusted the numbers (what is slight? what is the formula for reweight? what is the higher margin of error that doesn't get stated?) This makes the sampling totally nonscientific. Polls from news sites are more scientific polls (they're convenience sampling, it doesn't give the total demographic breakdown random sampling provides, but in this case convenience sampling is more accurate than this.) Random sampling provides a (very) good, but imperfect breakdown of standard population distribution (the margin of error reflects this). This has been proven time and again. So now based on things like age, race, religion, gender, region and political party, the numbers have been adjusted. "18? Black? Atheist? Democrat? Male? Okay, we'll just 'adjust' your opinion, sir, to more adequately reflect..." Right. I don't think so.
- So no, the reason people dislike the Zogby poll is because they dislike pathological lies, deliberate commissioned deception, discrimination of opinion based on race, party, gender, age and unscientific polls. Hope that helps clarify. Professor Ninja 23:05, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
- The Zogby poll's questions are ridiculously biased but I'm not sure about your other criticisms.
- Weights are very common: if the random people they call do not match up to the national average in age, race, etc. then the underpolled groups are given a greater weight. Zogby uses more than most other pollsters but I don't see how this invalidates their polls. Pollsters do not disclose all information about their polls.
- It seems that the polls mentioned in the paragraph at the top of the article are not repeated in the table. I believe this is to avoid redundancy. As for the 79% & 9% not being mentioned, it's obvious that the 79% is the "eight-in-ten (80%)" mentioned in the top paragraph. I don't know why they used a number one off, but the MOE is +/-3.2 so it doesn't matter statistically. Macdougal 02:32, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I'm aware of the method of weighting, however in a case like this it's fairly pointless. Weights are typically added when you're not doing random sampling or the sample size is too small. 1019 polled is not a small sample size and will give you a nice population deviation in terms of voters. To reweigh based on race, party affiliation, etc., are extremely questionable. Furthermore, I'm not sure why you assert that they don't disclose their weight formula; it's a standard practice to show both deviated numbers, the formula, and readjusted margin of error, none of which the Zogby poll does. The assertion that mentioning the numbers in the opening paragraphs alleviates them of the responsibility of couching it in the poll questions is false; the preamble alludes to questions which are subsequently posed in the poll given on the page, why repeat one question and not the other? Why not disclose the entire poll? Professor Ninja 04:31, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
- Additionally, I take issue with what criteria are used to decide what the "likely voter" is, or why only their opinions matter. It seems like a weasel term to get around adjusting results. How does Zogby know what a likely voter is? How does he know this issue (or others) won't galvanize people to vote? Oh, and this, to boot: "If a disabled person is not terminally ill, not in a coma, and not being kept alive on life support, and they have no written directive, should or should they not be denied food and water," the poll asked." -- okay, Terri wasn't in a coma (she was in a persistent vegetative state, a more severe condition) and she was on life support. So, the poll isn't pertinent and it's deliberately misdirective. Despite the mounds of evidence as to why the poll is seriously scientifically sketchy, even if we accept the premises as true, the conclusions don't follow. To say that the poll is a-okay and perfectly scientific still doesn't allow it to be included in this article. To assert that 80% of "likely voters" believe Terri should have remained on her legally, morally, intellectually-defined life support because 80% of "likely voters" said that somebody not on life support shouldn't be denied food and water is false. Even if the question weren't sketchy, it remains that it didn't define Terri's situation. Professor Ninja 04:39, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
- (Last one in this reply flurry, I swear) Additionally, adjusting the statistics within the margin of error is indeed stastically significant. A poll that shows two people tied at something 50%/50% with a margin of error of +/-5% being "insignificantly" adjusted to 55%/45% is statistically incorrect. Or a similar poll of 50%/40% spread with +/-5% being changed to 45%/45%. Doesn't fly. Additionally, this poll doesn't seem to use qualifying data in its questions. It's curious that if you're going to do weights, you don't bother with the best weighting system around. Test questions asking to define aspects of the Terri Schiavo case/definition of PVS/definition of life support could have helped quantify the results significantly. If we see, for example, that 29% of people v. 61% of people believe Terri isn't on life support, and subsequently see that 29% v. 61% believe she should not be "denied food and water" we can make accurate correlations (esp. if the polls are individually crosstabulated) on knowledge and opinion in the case, which this poll also lacks. Whee. Every time I look at this thing I notice about five or six things wrong with it. I don't know if this was John "America's Hottest Pollster" Zogby's fault or the Christian Defense Coalition's fault, but somewhere along the somebody cocked up hard. Professor Ninja 04:56, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
- Macdougal, I don't think that Zogby's questions were biased, but you are right about the rest. As you correctly point out, most (probably all!) professional public opinion pollsters weight the answers they get, to adjust for atypical sample demographics. That's just how polling is done. For example, CBS says:
- Do Our Respondents Look Like The American Public?
- At the end of our surveys, we find sometimes that we have questioned too many people from one group or another. Older people, for example, tend to be at home to answer the phone more than younger people, so there is often a greater percentage of older people in our surveys than exists in the American public.
- When that happens, we take great pains to adjust our data so that I accurately reflects the whole population. That process is called “weighting.” We make sure that our final figures match U.S. Census Bureau breakdowns on age, sex, race, education, and region of the country. We also “weight” to adjust for the fact that people who share a phone with others have less chance to be contacted than people who live alone and have their own phones, and that households with more than one telephone number have more chances to be called than households with only one phone number.
- So when we add up all the answers to our questions, we know that no one’s opinion counts for more than it should. When you see one of our poll results on TV or in the newspaper, you know that it does not show the opinions of only one or two groups of Americans.
- NCdave 07:36, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Macdougal, I don't think that Zogby's questions were biased, but you are right about the rest. As you correctly point out, most (probably all!) professional public opinion pollsters weight the answers they get, to adjust for atypical sample demographics. That's just how polling is done. For example, CBS says:
- Cute, but no. I find it hilarious that you completely obfuscate the issue. Pollsters, legitimate pollsters, conduct blind random sampling. A pseudorandom number generator should preferably spew out the polling possibilities and eliminate redundancies. The results should then be crosstabulated with quantifying data. That is the proper procedure for producing a randomly sampled poll. You realise that Zogby admits to weighing the data on race, sex, etc., correct? In other words if your black or female or whatever, your numbers are adjusted to conform? This completely destroys the entire point of polling. Zogby basically sells public opinion: Craft the question, divine the desired answer, massage the data, hold it up as a true result of shining public opinion. (And obviously, according to Zogby, non-voters opinions don't matter. They have no opinion! Who cares about them? It's not like they don't vote for a reason or anything. Just ignore them.) As for the assertion that it's not bias, I find that curious, given that Zogby reprints on his site an article that cites an answer to a question about somebody not on life support, and therefore not Terri Schiavo, as proof that most "Americans" (again, American depends on race, age, sex, party affiliation, and likelihood of vote. If you're not the right kind of these things, why, by golly, you ain't American!) do not support the removal of Terri Schiavo's life support. He reprints it knowingly with those errors displayed. He makes no effort to correct the incorrect interpretation of the data or create an errata section for his polling results. He proudly displays his status in the media under its own section, knowing full well that his misleading poll results are being foisted unsuspecting on the body public. If that's not bias, then the word has no meaning. Professor Ninja 08:33, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)
- "Crosstabulated with quantifying data?" Professor, what sort of "quantifying data" would you have them "crosstabulate" the results with? :-)
- Here's another example for you. This is how the ABC News / Washington Post pollsters weight their results on the basis of race, sex, etc.:
- "Final data are weighted using demographic information from the Census to adjust for sampling and non-sampling deviations from population values. Respondents customarily are classified into one of 48 cells based on age, race, gender and education. Weights are assigned so the proportion in each of these 48 cells matches the actual population proportion according to the Census Bureau’s most recent Current Population Survey."
- NCdave 09:29, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Did Mr. Schiavo Have a Living Will?
Did Terri's husband have a living will? If so, when did he get it? Just wondering if anyone knew. --L33tminion | (talk) 19:53, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
- I don't think you understand. He isn't the one who would have needed a living will. He's still perfectly capable of stating his own opinion. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 22:45, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I think the point of the question is to determine whether Michael is now, or has ever been, a proponent of living wills. I imagine that this is intended to shed some light on his sincerity in representing Terri's verbally expressed wishes. I don't think that it would be very illuminating, but hypothetically it might be interesting if Michael were to go on to found the Organization for Encouraging People to Write Living Wills. Bovlb 23:59, 2005 Apr 7 (UTC)
- An answer to such a question either way would not hurt Michael's case. Kingturtle 00:07, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)