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Could you explain your edit? ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stephen_III_of_Moldavia&diff=prev&oldid=793253363]) Why do you think that Ciobanu (1991) is not unreliable? He wrote in a book edited by Treptow. Or what about Jonathan Eagles, he referred to Treptow in his book? Should we delete all references to them? [[User:Borsoka|Borsoka]] ([[User talk:Borsoka|talk]]) 16:41, 31 July 2017 (UTC) |
Could you explain your edit? ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stephen_III_of_Moldavia&diff=prev&oldid=793253363]) Why do you think that Ciobanu (1991) is not unreliable? He wrote in a book edited by Treptow. Or what about Jonathan Eagles, he referred to Treptow in his book? Should we delete all references to them? [[User:Borsoka|Borsoka]] ([[User talk:Borsoka|talk]]) 16:41, 31 July 2017 (UTC) |
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:If you allow yourself to police Bain, even when his account was validated by other sources and his reputation was never once questioned, it is quite reasonable to assume that we should apply at least the same standard to anything touched by Treptow (and Watts). Evidently: no, we do not police against Eagles, because a historian's job is to review even questionable sources and publish his own conclusions as to their validity (for instance, a historian will use Hitler, not just Churchill, as a source). [[User:Dahn|Dahn]] ([[User talk:Dahn|talk]]) 16:45, 31 July 2017 (UTC) |
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Birthdate/Birthplace?
1) There's something strange about Stephen's birthdate: in the body of the article is given as ca. 1437, while in the cameo is given as 1443. They can't be both true.
2) Now, we know that he took part - alongside his cousin Vlad Tepes - at the Battle of Crasna in 1450, where his father, Bogdan defeated an invading Polish army. I doubt that his father would let him fight the Poles at the tender age of 7, and even at 13 (even if this is not unheard of; in those times teenager heirs apparent were sometimes taken along by their fathers when campaigning).
3) We also know that legend, folklore and oral tradition has it that Stephen spent (at least part of) his childhood at Borze?ti, but are there any reliable sources attesting that he was actually born there?
4) Any ideas how to solve these inconsistencies?
- He was born in 1433. As for the article, it is Dahn's resonsibility. --Thus Spake Anittas 23:18, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- Can you ask him to fix it? I don't want to do it by myself... Also, can you point to any sources for the birthyear?
- Anittas was making one of his trademark remarks, of which he assumes are clever. I only copyedited the article at some point, and kept doing various edits that I saw as urgent. There is nothing to prevent you from editing the article or any other, so feel free to.
- Oh, and: you will find characters with diacritics in your edit window, as clickable icons (just scroll down in your window after clicking "edit", and you'll find them there). Dahn 15:57, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Can you ask him to fix it? I don't want to do it by myself... Also, can you point to any sources for the birthyear?
Basarab Dynasty
I read Stefan cel Mare, Mircea cel Batran, John Hunyadi, Vlad Tepes and Michael the Brave were all from the Basarab dynasty. I think it would be interesting for people to know that Matthias Corvinus and Stefan cel Mare were relatives. -- criztu
- Stefan cel Mare was from the Musatin family.
- Yes, but apparently Stephen and Vlad were cousins. Also, Stephen's mother, Maria-Oltea, seems to have been of Wallachian origins. See http://old.jurnalul.ro/articol.php?id=42596 (in Romanian).
Article Name
Shouldn't this article be at Stephen the Great instead of Ştefan cel Mare according to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)? See Michael the Brave instead of Mihai Viteazul as well. Olessi 04:29, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
- According to the naming conventions this article could also be at Stephen III of Moldavia or Stefan III of Moldavia (based on List of Moldavian rulers). Olessi 04:02, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
Certainly it should not be where it is. I might prefer Stephen the Great, Prince of Moldavia. Without the Moldavia qualifier, I don't think most english-speakers would have any idea who he is. john k 21:49, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
- That would make more sense than simply Stephen the Great. To play devil's advocate, however, Frederick the Great is found at Frederick II of Prussia, not Frederick the Great, King of Prussia. However, I do prefer your suggestion. Olessi 22:41, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
- I think John Kenney's suggestion is a good one. Another possibility is Stephen the Great of Moldavia. Also, all of the other reasonable possibilities should be either redirects or disambiguations. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:08, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
- Him being an independent ruler (at least for some of the time), I would prefer the title Stephen III of Moldavia, with a lead like this:
Stephen III of Moldavia, also called Stephen the Great (Romanian: Ştefan cel Mare) or Stephen Muşat III (Borzeşti, 1433 – Suceava, 1504-07-02) was a voivod (prince) of Moldova (1457-1504), who won renown in Europe for his long resistance against the Ottoman Empire.
- In any case, the link to Romanian language would be nice, since not all readers will know what language they speak in Moldavia. KissL 08:33, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
He was known as Stephen the Great; the pope called him that and the different chronicler called him that. In other ennyclopedies, he is also referred to as Stephen the Great. Example:
http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/S/StphnG1rt.asp
Even Hungarians call him that. Now, Americans want to change his well-deserved title. Figures... --Anittas 13:08, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
The title of the article and the name we call that particular person is not the same thing, don't draw hasty conclusions. Nobody wants to change the name throughout the article, or in any other articles that link here. I personally prefer article titles that fit with the rest of the encyclopedia (as is the case with Frederick the Great). Also, Stephen the Great redirects here. (On the net, Stephen I of Hungary is sometimes referred to as Stephen the Great, but that's not a name we use in Hungary; our first king is usually simply called "King St. Stephen". So nothing against the redirect.)
We could say something like this then:
Stephen III of Moldavia, also called Stephen Muşat III (Borzeşti, 1433 – Suceava, 1504-07-02) was a voivod (prince) of Moldova (1457-1504), who won renown in Europe for his long resistance against the Ottoman Empire. He became known as Stephen the Great (Romanian: Ştefan cel Mare).
KissL 15:54, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
- That sounds like a good suggestion, Kissl. Michael the Brave could be improved with the same formula (Michael II of Wallachia etc.). What does Muşat mean? Anittas, I don't understand your quick assumption. We are discussing possible replacements for "Ştefan cel Mare". Louis VIII the Lion is at Louis VIII of France, Peter the Great is at Peter I of Russia, Catherine the Great is at Catherine II of Russia, Louis the Great is at Louis I of Hungary etc. The only leaders that I have found that do not follow this policy are from the Dark Ages and earlier: Charles the Bald, Charles the Fat, Henry the Fowler, Alexander the Great etc. Based on these standards, Stephen the Great should be at Stephen III of Moldavia, while Michael the Brave should be at Michael II of Wallachia. Olessi 20:02, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Summary
- Stephen III of Moldavia: Olessi, KissL
- Variations of Stephen the Great of Moldavia: John Kenney, Jmabel, Anittas
- Naming conventions (summarised above by Olessi) suggest to me Stephen III of Moldavia. No conclusion yet. Rd232 talk 14:10, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone object if I move this article to Stephen III of Moldavia (with listing of Stephen the Great and Ştefan cel Mare in the intro)? Olessi 17:13, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
- Can the requested move to Stephen the Great be cancelled? --Scott Davis Talk 08:26, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
A few days ago Bogdangiusca had said that he was going to take a look at the topic. I would like to wait until he gives his opinion before any decisions are made. If consensus is reached here after the request is removed from the Requested Moves page, I can just post it again, right? Olessi 14:55, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
- I'll move it into the "clarification" section near the bottom of the page - post clarification there when you have it (and let me know on my talk) and I'll sort it, if no-one gets there before me. Rob Church Talk 20:57, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
two weeks no objections to the name "Stephen III of Moldavia" So I've moved it. However I have edited the articles which had names like "Stefan the Great" "Stephen the Great" to etc rather than change the redirects. So only "Stephen the Great", "Stefan cel Mare" as well as the previous page name "Ştefan cel Mare" redirect here. So if anyone objects strongly and wants to reverse the move, or move it to another page name, they only have to chage a maximum of three redirect. -- Philip Baird Shearer 11:21, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I think the article should be left at Stefan cel Mare as in the romanian name making it far more accurate —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.201.61.182 (talk • contribs)
Bummer...I felt all warm and fuzzy inside when this article used the Romanian name. I suppose, however, that naming conventions need to be upheld... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Themill (talk • contribs)
Battleflag
link here: http://media.ici.ro/history/brod_t.htm
Citations/footnotes
This article is missing citations and footnotes. To meet Wikipedia's style guidelines and to conform to policies regarding neutral point of view, original research, and verifiability, please provide appropriate inline citations and/or footnotes. When this has been significantly complished, the {{citations missing}} should be removed from the article. For more information about footnotes, see Wikipedia:Footnotes#How to use. --Alcohol120 12:56, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Footnote 1. The (Russian?) item «Uliantski, Mamerualyi» is incomplete and cannot be verified. The same mistake appears in other wiki-versions of this article.--Sever Juan (talk) 21:01, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
One of the first to gain a decisive victory
I changed "the first to inflict a decisive victory over the Ottomans" to "one of the first to gain a decisive victory over the Ottomans," because that's a better way of putting it and because Hunyadi won a decisive battle at Belgrade almost 20 years before Stephen. Stephen's victory halted Mehmed's expansion into Europe from the Balkans, but it was Hunyadi's victory that allowed the Balkans, and in fact all of Europe, any strategic defense at all. That is not to say that Stephen's victory was not important. Tactically it was the worst defeat Mehmed ever suffered, but it strategically it was not as decisive as the siege of Belgrade.Shield2 21:20, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
- The Siege of Belgrade was a victory, but not a decisive one. It was an important one, but I can't say how important it really was compared to Vaslui. Both positions threatened the Catholic border. --Thus Spake Anittas 21:38, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Broken short citations
@Borsoka: There are plenty of Nowakowska 2004 in short citations, but that work is not listed in the full bibliography. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:38, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
GA Review
- This review is transcluded from Talk:Stephen III of Moldavia/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: SpartaN (talk · contribs) 20:27, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
The article is definitely broad and well-referenced. Mostly just copy editing to improve prose. While 90% of the article reads just fine, those few sentences with slight prose issues are all I'd say needs work on. Note also that I don't know anything about the history of Moldavia, and only checked to make sure the information in this article is consistent with that of our other articles on the subject: I saw no factual errors. A couple prose issues I fixed myself. Hope I'm not being too picky.
- "With the assistance of Vlad, Stephen broke into Moldavia at the head of an army of 6,000 strong in the spring of 1457."
to: With the assistance of Vlad, Stephen broke into Moldavia at the head of an army 6,000 strong in the spring of 1457.
- "Peter Aaron subsequently left Poland for Hungary and settled in Székely Land in Transylvania."
to: Peter Aaron subsequently left Poland for Hungary and settled in Székely Land, Transylvania.
- "A year later, Stephen confirmed the privileges of the merchants of Lvov..."
What are the privileges he confirmed? The right to conduct business?
- "Stephen broke into Székely Land more than once in 1461."
to: Stephen breached Székely Land multiple times in 1461. (broke into sounds more like a burglary in my opinion)
- "During the siege, Stephen was seriously wounded on his left calf, a wound that did not heal to the end of his life."
to: Stephen was seriously wounded during the siege, suffering an injury on his left calf that would never heal his entire life.
- it only needs to be mentioned that chilia is now Kiliya in Ukraine once.
- "However, neither the Pope nor other European powers sent material support to Moldavia."
to: However, neither the Pope, or any other European power, sent material support to Moldavia.
- "Stephen adopted the scorched earth policy, but he could not avoid joining a pitched battle."
to: Stephen adopted a scorched earth policy, but could not avoid a pitched battle.
- "Stephen returned to Moldavia, but left Moldavian troops behind to protect Vlad."
to: Stephen returned to Moldava, leaving Moldavian troops behind for Vlad's protection.
- "To strengthen his international position, Stephen signed a new treaty with Poland on 22 January 1479, promising Casimir IV to personally swear fealty to him in Colomeea (now Kolomyia in Ukraine) on the day that the king specified six months ahead."
to: To strengthen his international position, Stephen signed a new treaty with Poland on 22 January 1479, promising to personally swear fealty to Casimir IV in Colomeea (now Kolomyia, Ukraine) on that day specified by the king six months later.
- " He promised to again pay a yearly tribute in May 1480.[76] Taking advantage of the peace, Stephen made preparations to a new confrontation with the Ottoman Empire."
to: He promised to renew the annual tribute in May 1480 that he had stopped paying in 1473. Taking advantage of the peace, Stephen made preparations for a new confrontation with the Ottoman Empire.
- "Matthias Corvinus signed a truce for five years with Bayezid II in October 1483."
to: Matthias Corvinus signed a five-year truce with Bayezid II in October 1483. ("..signed a truce for five years.." sounds like he was signing it for five years)
- "The truce covered Moldavia, with the exception of the Moldavian ports."
to:The truce applied to all Moldavia, with the exception of the Moldavian ports.
- There's a couple citation needed tags that you should work on, but not enough to fail the article. Those sentences may very well be covered by citations at the end of the paragraphs anyway.
After these changes I'll pass the article. I recommend that after fixing the citation needed tags that you take the article to A-class. A lot of work went into the article and I never realized Moldavia defeated the Ottomans so many times. I always thought it was Poland and Venice who were the main defenders of "Christendom" after the Byzantines fell. SpartaN (talk) 20:27, 17 June 2017 (UTC)
- SpartaN, thank you for your comprehensive review. I highly appreciate your hard work. I changed the text of the article mostly in accordance with your above proposals. Please let me know if any further action is needed to improve the article. Borsoka (talk) 17:23, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
- Borsoka Looks good. Saw one instance of double negative which I just fixed myself. Will pass now.
- SpartaN, thank you for your comprehensive review. I highly appreciate your hard work. I changed the text of the article mostly in accordance with your above proposals. Please let me know if any further action is needed to improve the article. Borsoka (talk) 17:23, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
Icon
I think I remember bringing up this issue here or elsewhere a long time ago: there is absolutely no way the icon of a man canonized in 1992 can be PD. Dahn (talk) 14:20, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
Thank you
@Dahn:, thank you for your edits which significantly improved the article. I placed some template messages in the text, because I am not sure that the sentences concerned can actually verified. I would appreciate if you could look at them. Thank you. Borsoka (talk) 14:14, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- Borsoka, they are all in the citation given, those that aren't simply matter of fact. For instance, Boia verifies not just the quote from Delavrancea, but its attribution by the populace to Stephen himself, and its popularity: "The words are those of the great orator Delavrancea and in no way those of the old ruler, but what does it matter? The image of Stephen the Great that is imprinted in public consciousness owes much more to this play than to any document of the time or scholarly monograph." My "locally" means "in Romania" (and possibly Moldova), and is used for "not throughout the world". Dahn (talk) 17:44, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for your quick answer. Sorry, I think, the quote from Boia's work does not support the text in the article. It does not say that the words are "often attributed" to historical Stephen the Great. If my understanding is correct, the expression "locally" could be exactly determined to avoid misunderstanding. Borsoka (talk) 18:14, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- "Popular account": must I really summarize the loaf of text in Rezachievici where he notes that the vast majority of historians have taken up the claim in Ureche word for word (making his account "popular" in that sense), but that they did so without wondering why Stephen and only Stephen was elected in that entire period, even though he had already been associate ruler? "It is generally believed" carried three citations, including from the author who rejects the theory that he was elected. Meaning that it is, for all practical purposes, an undisputed fact; the election is not. Dahn (talk) 17:47, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- "In 1485, Stephen became a participant in the Polish–Ottoman War." This is simply one way to point to the reader that by then the two countries were at war. Stephen signed an alliance with one of them and was invaded by the other. Your request for a citation is simply unreasonable. Dahn (talk) 17:49, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- If my understanding is correct, you concluded that Stephen became a "participant" in the Polish-Ottoman War because he signed an alliance with Poland, but no reliable sources say this explicitly. Am I wrong? Please note that the cited reliable sources do not write of an alliance. Borsoka (talk) 18:17, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- No, your understanding is not correct. What I want is simply to give readers a link to understand the context, and specifying that there was a war, and that Stephen was entangled in it, in no way implies that Moldavia and Poland had a working alliance (even though they did, for a year or so). My effort is to make these articles stop being autistic and be connected with each other. Dahn (talk) 18:57, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- What about using the Template "See also"? Borsoka (talk) 19:00, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- It sucks. I prefer integrating info into the text, if I can. And I still don't see why we can't. Dahn (talk) 19:03, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- The country was invaded by the Ottomans. To theorize that this was an entirely parallel war, in a different world than Poland's, would be absurd. To theorize that an alliance is required for participation in a war is also absurd: Belgium participated in both world wars without ever meaning to or preemptively allying herself with anyone. Again, this seems to be you reading too much into things and projecting your own preferences. Dahn (talk) 19:13, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- Have a read. Dahn (talk) 19:22, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- Nope, there is nothing in the text that would suggest that this was the order of events, and in any case it doesn't matter -- what matters is that there was a war that year. But when you claim that Stephen might have had something to do with starting that war, do you not contradict your own stubborn claim, earlier, that he was in no way involved in the war? Dahn (talk) 19:31, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- I don't think anyone can say for certain when and how the war started -- or any war before the advent of modern diplomacy, which requires states to declare war on each other. I had put it at the top of the section, then at the end, because it doesn't matter when it started, just that at some point in the paragraph Stephen joined in, or was made to join in by an Ottoman invasion of his country. What matters to the reader is that they understand the situation in which Poland and Ottoman were -- either at war or preparing for war. Absolutely nothing in any of three versions I proposed ever stated what you claimed to have read into them: namely, that Stephen and the Poles colluded to start a war. Can you please let go of such absurdities and just read the versions instead of reading into them? Dahn (talk) 20:14, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
-
- Well I won't add it. For one, because clogging up the space with references we use for just one fact is not particularly helpful. Secondly, I hate citing tertiary references that are liekly to have many disparate mentions of Stephen for just one fact relating to him -- since I can't also verify what that book has to say about Stephen's other wars, adding the reference would simply be a record of the conflict between our obsessions, mine and yours; the reader is not served by such editing. Moreover, such details are sure to be dealt with in an expansion of that article, which cannot fail to mention Stephen at least in passing. What I have done was to administer the evidence that Stephen is seen as a participant in that war, and not just by yours truly -- but by authors who are taking the necessary step of seeing Stephen's world outside localist lenses. Dahn (talk) 21:04, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- Sorry, the story is not clear for me. According to the source you referred to above the war broke out in 1484, while the title of the WP article suggests that it only started a year later. Your text says that the war was in preparation when Stephen visited Poland in 1484. What does your text mean? And what say reliable sources? Borsoka (talk) 02:31, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
- Seriously, what's your problem Borsoka? Is it a personal issue with me by now? "My" text says "by then", with reference to the dates of the previous paragraph. I couldn't care less if the wikipedia article has "1485" and Kohn has "1484", because in either case by 1485 there was 'a war. What the difference in dating suggests is simply that there is no clear date in the annals for when the war began -- you should see quotes about the 1497 campaign, where sources from the same country give quite different dates. Dahn (talk) 05:47, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
- My problem is that the text is not verified. Sorry, your assumption about a war which was in preparation when Stephen visited Poland is still an example of original research. If we cannot clarify the connection between the war and Stephen's visit, we should not write of it. Borsoka (talk) 06:07, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
- No, I won't, because I have better things to do than copy text by hand. I will say that he specifically says that Poland was getting ready for a war, if harassed by the Volga Tatars, and that Stephen specifically wanted them to intervene. I will now add from Kohn details that will substantiate this even further, including a notion that Casimir was in Colomea with his army because he had invaded the Ottoman Empire. If Papacostea says otherwise, feel free to quote him and we will note that there is a controversy in the sources. Dahn (talk) 06:59, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
- If your added text from Papacostea covers the extend of what Papacostea has to say on this matter, and there is nothing more, I would like to note that it does not state what you claimed it stated: not that the war hadn't started between Poland and the Ottomans, and neither that the talks at Colomea happened before there was an actual war. Apparently, he just mentions that the Poles were reluctant (up to which year? which month?) to validate Stephen: but even so he notes something you have explicitly claimed he denies, namely that there was, in the end, an alliance. Are we done here? Dahn (talk) 07:56, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
- What about using the Template "See also"? Borsoka (talk) 19:00, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for verifying the text. Borsoka (talk) 07:23, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
- You really need a citation for the fact that literature in Stephen's day was entirely Slavonic? All the manuscripts you yourself mentioned in the text are not in Romanian, do look it up. Dahn (talk) 17:52, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- If my understanding is correct, you concluded that Stephen contributed to the development of Old Church Slavonic literature, because the chronicles were written in that language, but no reliable sources say this explicitly. Am I wrong? There are billions who write texts in English, but I am not convinced that all works contribute to the development of English literature. Borsoka (talk) 18:19, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- This is absurd. I simply spell out the language in which all the works were written. And yes, several sources mention that fact, including the added source which states that he influenced literature even outside Romania. But the text you take issue with never said that he indfuenced literature in Slavonic everywhere -- the link clearly refers to Church Slavonic literature in Romania. Dahn (talk) 18:53, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- Regarding the practice of slavery: the capture of 17,000 slaves in one go is not a consolidation of the institution? The phrasing simply tells the reader that the practice existed in Romania and that he practiced slavery as well, to some record levels apparently. It links the phrase with what comes before it. The Achim citation mentions in fact that he contributed massively to the transfer of Romanies from Wallachia to Moldavia, as slaves, and that his rule saw the first ever mention of the term "slave". So your claim that it is "not in citation given" is unreasonable and contrived. Dahn (talk) 17:58, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- Achim writes that the presence of Gypsy slaves in Moldavia was first recorded in 1428, but there is "documentary evidence for a permanent movement movement of Gypsies from Wallachia to Moldavia". Sorry, I cannot decide whether the 17,000 slaves allegedly brought by Stephen from Wallachia to Moldavia consolidated slavery in Wallachia based on Achim's text. What can easily be verified is the fact (namely, that slaves were brought to Wallachia). Borsoka (talk) 18:29, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- That makes no sense whatsoever. He brought them to Moldavia from Wallachia, and consolidated the practice in Moldavia. This is quite plainly stated by Achim. Dahn (talk) 18:50, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- According to Achim, there was "a permanent movement of Gypsies from Wallachia to Moldavia", independently of Stephen, and he does not state that Stephen consolidated slavery in Moldavia. Anyway, we can assume that the arrival of 17,000 new slaves actually consolidated slavery. Borsoka (talk) 18:55, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- And also let's highlight again that the citation also refers to the portions of Achim which state that Stephen saw the first mention of the word "slave" in Moldavian annals, and that slavery in that day did not just refer to the Romanies, but also to the many Tatars he captured. Dahn (talk) 19:02, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- It's not just Achim by this point: there are three sources saying he owned and used and colonized slaves. But even if we confine it to Achim: Stephen personally captured Gypsies from Wallachia, and Tatars from wherever, and stated in writing that they were governed by different customs and laws. Dahn (talk) 05:47, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
- "In the Romanian principalities, there was a slaves’ law. It is mentioned in the Moldavian document of 1470 in which Stephen the Great frees Oana, a Tatar slave who had fled from Poland, as well as his children from slavery. The prince freed them from the obligations that resulted from one’s status as a slave: “let them never pay anything according to the law of the slaves and the Tatars (holopskym[i], tatarskym[i] pravom[i])”; they would be allowed to live in the country “as do all Romanians according to Romanian law (voloskym[i] zakonomi)”. Romanian law and slaves’ law were two different entities. Romanian law and slaves’ law were two different entities. Slaves had their own legal status that was different from that of the Romanian population." (pages 35--36, which, though you claim not to see them, are also in the citation). Moreover, we have citations for the fact that he owned slaves and took slaves by the thousands, not just from among Gypsies. You are being obtuse. Dahn (talk) 06:25, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
- Of course, the legal status of freemen and slaves was quite different. Do you think that before Stephen's rule (let's say in 1428 when slavery was first documented in Moldavia) there was no difference between slaves and freemen? Could you cite the text proving that it was Stephen who endorsed "the notion that different laws applied to slaves". Borsoka (talk) 06:34, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
- Your problem is one of basic logic. Sauing that he endorsed it in no way is a claim that he was the only one who endorsed it. Dahn (talk) 06:37, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
- No, my problem is that you are trying to emphasize something which is not emphasized in the allegedly cited source. Achim states that (1) Stephen captured 17,000 Gypsies, and also Tatar slaves; and (2) the first extant Moldavian document containing the term "slave" was issued by Stephen. Borsoka (talk) 06:44, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
- Of course, the legal status of freemen and slaves was quite different. Do you think that before Stephen's rule (let's say in 1428 when slavery was first documented in Moldavia) there was no difference between slaves and freemen? Could you cite the text proving that it was Stephen who endorsed "the notion that different laws applied to slaves". Borsoka (talk) 06:34, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
- Sorry, I did not find the text verifying that it was Stephen who specifically had laws for slaves. Could we say that Macron endorsed civil rights, just because he has not changed the provisions governing those rights in the French constitution? Absurd claim, to borrow your favorit adjective from you. Borsoka (talk) 07:23, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
Ottoman-Polish War
Thank you for your efforts to address my concerns, even if you reverted my edit containing the question. Sorry, I think an original synthesis do not clarify the question. You allegedly assumes that Casimir asked the Teutonic Knights to join the anti-Ottoman war before Stephen the Great sought Casimir's assistance. However, the cited source (Maasing) does not verify this assumption. Casimir may have also asked them to support him after he decided to intervene on behalf of Stephen. Furthermore, the reference to a league implies that not only the realms ruled by Casimir, but other countries also joined this coalition. What does the source you cited say about the members of this league? Finally, are you sure, based on the source, that Casimir formed the anti-Ottoman league before Stephen the Great sought his assistance against the Ottomans? Borsoka (talk) 12:23, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
- More pedantry. The Kohn source says outright that there was a league formed by Casimir, without specifying what members it had. You are wikilawyering beyond all common sense when you emit the demand that published sources should specifically mention what members those leagues had. Do you understand that the info about a league being formed by Poland is already covered by that reference? The Maasing source specifically mentions that the Teutons were at some point (it doesn't matter when, not to this article) members of that league, and I simply added the info because it enriches the text, not to answer your bewilderingly contrived and risible claim that we should ask of Kohn that he mention what members the league had. What sort of wording would satisfy your absurd requests, by this point? Dahn (talk) 17:24, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
- And yes, both sources now used for the league tidbit specifically state that this was formed before the Colomea thing. It migth have been just a symbolic league (werent all of them?), but that has absolutely no importance, nor are we expected to guess if it was or not because something in that bothers your preconceived notion that there was no such alliance -- a notion based on a blatant misreading of Papacostea, which youre yet to retract. Dahn (talk) 18:46, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
- Would you quote the text from Maasing implying that the "league" (?) was formed before the Colomea meeting? I have not found it. Sorry, my problem is that you are creating a history by arbitrarily setting the chronology of the events. We should also specify the members of the "league", because Kohn only mentions Stephen the Great, but your wording suggest that a league was formed before Stephen joined it. Borsoka (talk) 03:22, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- First of all, there is nothing in our text that suggests this absolutely happened before Colomea, just that it happened at around that time. Or feel free to quote the part where the text says that: 'before he marched on Colomea...". And yes, both Kohn and Bain place the formation of the league in the narrative before they mention Colomea. Either this means they suggest that this happened before Colomea (as one would assume, and as you claim we do, because we also use that narrative sequence), or it means that they do not really obsess about the exact succession of events (just like the the sources you were using placed Stephen's sending for doctors in Venice to before he stopped paying tribute to the Porte), or, maybe, that nobody knows for sure (just like nobody knows for sure if Stephen himself sacked Lviv, and when). Either way, we follow usage in the sources. When you find one specifically saying that the league was formed after, we'll have something to talk about; otherwise, it is your theory, sourced from thin air, versus published sources. (Maasing does not go into the subject at any length; Maasing however mentions that the Teutons were reluctantly attracted into the war, in or before 1485. Which is exactly what we use him for in that context, as I'm sure you can read for yourself.) Dahn (talk) 04:33, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for modifying the text, but I am more an more convinced that Kohn's POV is quite special. Even the new source you added, Pilat, shows that the loss of the two ports was the reason of Polish intervention. I understand that you want to put the wl "[Polish–Ottoman War (1485–1503)", for this reason we should not change history. Borsoka (talk) 03:45, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- I believe it was you who were lecturing me about personal theories and how I'm welcome to discuss them on talk pages, rather than the article. Dahn (talk) 04:33, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- But if I'm permitted this comment: people who rely on texts authored by Securitate associates and by convicted pedophiles should perhaps not throw stones at other sources. Dahn (talk) 04:47, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- Would you quote the text from Maasing implying that the "league" (?) was formed before the Colomea meeting? I have not found it. Sorry, my problem is that you are creating a history by arbitrarily setting the chronology of the events. We should also specify the members of the "league", because Kohn only mentions Stephen the Great, but your wording suggest that a league was formed before Stephen joined it. Borsoka (talk) 03:22, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- If my understanding is correct, you do not deny any more that most reliable sources do not refer to an anti-Ottoman coalition before the Colomea meeting. We shoul not refer to it either. Borsoka (talk) 06:18, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- This is OR at its best. "They don't refer" becomes "it happened after Colomea", when in fact it means that most sources simply do not mention the larger context. Both sources who mention it explicitly mention it before Colomea, which I think it is reasonable to assume means that the fact occurred before Colomea (or else I see nothing in the sources telling me that it happened after); however (and this is where I think you should concentrate your understanding) nothing in the text we have suggests that either one happened before the other, no more than the sources do. They narrate one before the other, we do as well. The "before" in the narration may mean a chronological succession, but also a hierarchy of narrative importance or nothing at all. Your persistent reading that they should necessarily reflect chronology just because they are narrated in that way is based on nothing at all, but is becoming tiresome by this point. Yes: the league quite possibly began before Colomea, at least until we find a source saying definitely that it happened after (you found one? cite it); no: listing one thing before the other does not necessarily imply that it happened before. Dahn (talk) 06:52, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- If my understanding is correct, you do not deny any more that most reliable sources do not refer to an anti-Ottoman coalition before the Colomea meeting. We shoul not refer to it either. Borsoka (talk) 06:18, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- If reliable sources do not mention the wider context, why we should mention it? Publishing our own interpretation of history is not our task as editors of WP. Actually, the source mention the wider context: the occupation of the two ports by the Ottomans threatened Poland, thus Casimir who had never intervened in the Moldavian-Ottoman conflict became ready to support Stephen. Consequently, the wider context is already included in the article and we do not need to expand it. Borsoka (talk) 07:09, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- Some reliable sources do not mention it (why? it's the authors' business); others, also reliable, plainly do; still others, of those you claim do not mention it, actually do, just not in that straightforward manner (Papacostea, for instance). Your claim that we should not mention it because not all do is not just bewildering as an exercise in sophistry, it is explicitly against wikipedia recommendations, as Ive shown you. Also, let's note that nothing in your account, that the occupation of the ports generated the war, contradicts anything in the text -- which, even when mentioning earlier clashes, suggests that the war also started in 1484 or 1485. Because the occupation is still before Colomea. Take a deep breath and actually read what you're "correcting". Dahn (talk) 07:41, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for accepting that the text should be changed. I think that this part of the article should be changed, because it is a little bit confusing, but I think now you understand what was my problem. Borsoka (talk) 07:46, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- I never had any problem with the text being changed, in fact I prefer that you change it directly instead of tag-bombing it. The problem here is that, as noted and outlined below, at least two sources (granted, not Parry) suggest, or even spell out, that both the war and the alliance existed before Colomea. This is not a claim I am making, nor saying it is ultimately right; my point is that if you have something contradicting them, you should come up with a quote from a reliable source, not pass your own theories and "questions" about the validity of either as sources. Because, you know: OR. Dahn (talk) 10:23, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for accepting that the text should be changed. I think that this part of the article should be changed, because it is a little bit confusing, but I think now you understand what was my problem. Borsoka (talk) 07:46, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- Some reliable sources do not mention it (why? it's the authors' business); others, also reliable, plainly do; still others, of those you claim do not mention it, actually do, just not in that straightforward manner (Papacostea, for instance). Your claim that we should not mention it because not all do is not just bewildering as an exercise in sophistry, it is explicitly against wikipedia recommendations, as Ive shown you. Also, let's note that nothing in your account, that the occupation of the ports generated the war, contradicts anything in the text -- which, even when mentioning earlier clashes, suggests that the war also started in 1484 or 1485. Because the occupation is still before Colomea. Take a deep breath and actually read what you're "correcting". Dahn (talk) 07:41, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- If reliable sources do not mention the wider context, why we should mention it? Publishing our own interpretation of history is not our task as editors of WP. Actually, the source mention the wider context: the occupation of the two ports by the Ottomans threatened Poland, thus Casimir who had never intervened in the Moldavian-Ottoman conflict became ready to support Stephen. Consequently, the wider context is already included in the article and we do not need to expand it. Borsoka (talk) 07:09, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
Two more things.
1. Please give it a rest with your crusade against "possibly" and your theory about what it "suggests". Nothing on WP:WEASEL suggests the word is to be avoided, and it frankly is especially contrived to claim that using it implies that we question the source. I use "possibly" for when the source says "possibly", and there ain't nothing wrong with that.
2. Can I at least put the info about Ciceu and Cetatea in succession boxes? We can use "owner" or "castellan" or what have you to describe his title. Dahn (talk) 04:37, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- Why? He was not the ruler of the two domains. Are Queen Elizabeth's all private estates listed in the infobox of the article about her? Borsoka (talk) 06:18, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- That would be unwieldy. This one is not. "Why?" Because it is historically relevant, as noted by your own addition of the info in the lead. Dahn (talk) 06:52, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- Should we list all private domains of the monarchs in the succession boxes? I think it would be absurd, to borrow your favorite phrase. Borsoka (talk) 06:56, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- The fact that I have used an infobox which is specifically designed for that tells you that, where possible, yes we should. Dahn (talk) 07:00, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- Okay, fine, I won't add anything on that topic anymore. In fact I have half a mind to let you own this article and be done with it. Apparently the scholarship I added is not up to your "can't-speak-Romanian-and-will-use-Treptow-and-Watts-as-sources" level. Dahn (talk) 07:22, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- You are taking everything at a personal level. Actually, I am convinced that you think you are the owner of the article, that is why you are unable to acknowledge that some of your edits cannot be verified. If you do not want to edit that part of the article, I will modify it. Borsoka (talk) 07:40, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- Actually, it is you who are behaving like the owner, and it is you who claim that your concoctions should be taken into account as "failed verification". But regardless: I have been more than constructive here, and I have given you the closest possible phrasing to the sources, even though I view it as highly redundant by this point. Where you claimed SYNTH, I gave you a paraphrase from the author who says that Poland was already in a state of war with the Ottomans before Colomea. This and every other source that goes into that level of detail says the same thing. Dahn (talk) 07:49, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- You are taking everything at a personal level. Actually, I am convinced that you think you are the owner of the article, that is why you are unable to acknowledge that some of your edits cannot be verified. If you do not want to edit that part of the article, I will modify it. Borsoka (talk) 07:40, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- Should we list all private domains of the monarchs in the succession boxes? I think it would be absurd, to borrow your favorite phrase. Borsoka (talk) 06:56, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- That would be unwieldy. This one is not. "Why?" Because it is historically relevant, as noted by your own addition of the info in the lead. Dahn (talk) 06:52, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- Why? He was not the ruler of the two domains. Are Queen Elizabeth's all private estates listed in the infobox of the article about her? Borsoka (talk) 06:18, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
You need to understand what WP:SYNTH is and isn't. Having two facts discussed in one phrase, where they are both sourced separately and the sources do not contradict each other, is not SYNTH, just like using "possibly" is not WEASEL.
Also, please have the courtesy of waiting until I'm done with at least quoting one source before you start spamming your tags. This article passed GA with ridiculous grammatical errors, surely it doesn't itch and burn that you would have to tolerate info you find questionable for at most a couple of hours. Dahn (talk) 07:00, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- I understand the concept of WP:SYNTH. You connected Kohn's concept of a "league" with Tatar raids against Poland, although none of the sources cited verify this connection. I have not edited the article for more than 24 hours. Please try to understand that articles cannot be expropriated for days. Borsoka (talk) 07:09, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- By this point, you are misrepresenting the sources, claiming that only Kohn refers to the league. No, I have not connected "the concepts", I have simply connected the events into one innocuous phrase. You are getting extremely entrenched.
- Verifying my last edits will clearly show you that I was trying to add more from one source, and was not done with it. I had a tag requesting that you wait until I'm done, yet you deliberately chose to create edit conflicts. I also haven't edited the article for hours on end, but in this case it takes me a while to finish what I believe you can agree are constructive edits. Dahn (talk) 07:22, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- Would you quote the sources referring to an anti-Ottoman "league" before the meeting at Colomea? Yes, I agree that 95% of your edits highly improved the article. The problem is that you are unable to accept that 5% of your edicts should be changed in order to be fully in line WP policies. Instead of trying the solve the problems, you are making ad personam remarks. Actually, it is really funny. Borsoka (talk) 07:40, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- They talk of a league, and they place that before Colomea, and in fact they say that the march on Colomea was an act of war. I can't vouch that this means it absolutely happened before Colomea (though I probably does mean that, I'll give the benefit of the doubt). But try and comprehend this, for the last time: there is nothing in our text that says it happened before Colomea. Just that it happened. Really, make that cognitive effort. Dahn (talk) 07:45, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- Sorry, I would like to avoid that readers of the article should make cognitive efforts to understand what happened when. That is why I suggest that the text should be modified. Borsoka (talk) 07:48, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- Modified to what??? Make a suggestion that does not involve OR about how to mention the league in the absence of more precise detail about "what happened when". Dahn (talk) 07:51, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- We should only respect the cited sources. For instance, if a scholar (Parry) refers to the years 1485-87, we should not pretend that he writes of the years 1483-1484 ([1]). I think this is a quite simple approach and none of us needs to make major cognitive efforts to follow this rule. Borsoka (talk) 08:10, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- Youre right about Parry. What about the question I actually asked? Dahn (talk) 08:18, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- For the time being, I am working on an other article. I will modify the text about the 1480s in this article a couple of days later. Borsoka (talk) 08:20, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- I have double-checked. Bain, loc. cit., specifically refers to Poland's accession to an anti-Ottoman league before Colomea, and after the fall of both ports, argues that the Poles actually "drove the Turks out of Moldavia" before even getting to Colomea, and then notes that the league was "frustrated" by Corvinus' double-dealing. Kohn also states that Poland formed a league and then drove the Turks from Moldavia, and then advanced on Colomea. If you have a source that expressly contradicts these, use it and we will note the controversy. If not, please call it a day. Dahn (talk) 10:10, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- Yes. Bain must be a highly reliable source, because he wrote his book almost 110 years ago. I clarified that the Ottomans were driven out of Moldavia even before they invaded it, because I know that we should emphasize that Poland had formed a league with unspecified members even before the Colomea meeting. Borsoka (talk) 15:08, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
- You have no right to censor the article because you could not find a source that agrees with *your* theories; if other sources contradict what Bain says, cite *them*. But you cant, can you now? Dahn (talk) 15:15, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
- If Bain is "unreliable", it should be easy for you to find a source that presents a different account (no, not one that doesn't present any account: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence). Do it. In the meantime, we have two sources of very different periods saying the same thing, and your theory that what historians said happened didnt happen, because... because who cares. Dahn (talk) 15:18, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
- Communicating with you is really entertaining. It is really funny that you want to treat each content dispute at a personal level. No, I do not want to censor anybody. I do not want to push any POV either. I only want to improve the article. Please remember that Papacostea clearly writes that "Poland had constantly kept aloof from Moldavia's struggle against the Ottoman Empire; she had witnessed with indifference ... the two Turkish campaigns against Moldavia. But the danger posed by the militray presence of the Turks at the mouths of the Danube and the Dnieper, as well as the prospects of bringing Moldavia under Polish suzerainty, determined King Casimir to take action against the Ottoman Porte. Stephen had no choice but to accept again the most oppressing form of vassalage, ... that took place on September 15, 1485, at Kolomyya... Having got Plish military support, Stephen succeeded in driving out the Turks." (Papacostea (1996), pp. 58-59.) Ciobanu likewise writes, "[the conquest of Chilia and Cetatea Alba in 1484] created a new political and military situation in the Lower Danube dangerous to both Hungary and Poland. Neither of these powers went father than writing diplomatic petitions to the Sultan. But the diplomats of Casimir IV were more emphatic... Thus Stefan cel Mare was obliged to break the political equilibrium between Hungary and Poland .... This was done by his presence at Colomeea and his signing the act of vassalage towares King Casimir IV ... [who] bound himself ... to protect Moldavia borders and not to sign a peace treaty without the knowledge of Stefan cel Mare if it concerned Moldavia and its borders." (Ciobanu (1991), pp. 49-50.) Both modern sources make it clear that Poland did not intervene before the Colomea meeting. Borsoka (talk) 15:46, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
- Neither of the two sources contradicts Bain, and neither says that Poland intervened only after Colomea. They both say that the conquest of Chilia etc. long before Colomea prompted a Polish intervention (which is what Bain also says), and they both also say that at Colomea Stephen and the king struck a deal. The rest is your inference and, again, your misreading of the sources. Dahn (talk) 16:00, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
- If you tag Bain again while we're having this conversation, I'll respond by tagging every instance where you used Treptow or another questionable source. After all, your claim that Bain is unreliable surely has to be balanced out against a "historian" who served as a PR agent for the Securitate and went to jail for child abuse. Dahn (talk) 16:04, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
- Communicating with you is really entertaining. It is really funny that you want to treat each content dispute at a personal level. No, I do not want to censor anybody. I do not want to push any POV either. I only want to improve the article. Please remember that Papacostea clearly writes that "Poland had constantly kept aloof from Moldavia's struggle against the Ottoman Empire; she had witnessed with indifference ... the two Turkish campaigns against Moldavia. But the danger posed by the militray presence of the Turks at the mouths of the Danube and the Dnieper, as well as the prospects of bringing Moldavia under Polish suzerainty, determined King Casimir to take action against the Ottoman Porte. Stephen had no choice but to accept again the most oppressing form of vassalage, ... that took place on September 15, 1485, at Kolomyya... Having got Plish military support, Stephen succeeded in driving out the Turks." (Papacostea (1996), pp. 58-59.) Ciobanu likewise writes, "[the conquest of Chilia and Cetatea Alba in 1484] created a new political and military situation in the Lower Danube dangerous to both Hungary and Poland. Neither of these powers went father than writing diplomatic petitions to the Sultan. But the diplomats of Casimir IV were more emphatic... Thus Stefan cel Mare was obliged to break the political equilibrium between Hungary and Poland .... This was done by his presence at Colomeea and his signing the act of vassalage towares King Casimir IV ... [who] bound himself ... to protect Moldavia borders and not to sign a peace treaty without the knowledge of Stefan cel Mare if it concerned Moldavia and its borders." (Ciobanu (1991), pp. 49-50.) Both modern sources make it clear that Poland did not intervene before the Colomea meeting. Borsoka (talk) 15:46, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
- Of course, you can tag any of "my" sources. Do you think this is the way of improving the article? However, to borrow one of your favorite expressions, "really, make that cognitive effort" and read the above quotes. They clearly say, that Poland did not intervene before Colomea. Borsoka (talk) 16:10, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
- At this point, the only thing that would move the article forward is if you step down from your entrenched position and stop acting as the owner. And no, neither source says that: neither contradicts that there was a war in preparation before, neither says that there was no league formed, neither says that only after Colomea did the war start. They both say that Stephen and Casimir only had an alliance after Colomea (who disputes this?), and one of them, Ciobanu, claims that the Poles mounted an effort that was only or largely diplomatic -- which is not a fact, but an assessment of facts. Dahn (talk) 16:16, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
- Owner of the article? Me? Please try to remain serious. Please also read again and again the quoted texts. Papacostea explicitly stats that Casimir had not intervened before Colomea. You presented this statement as a POV, although earlier you stated that you do not want to cite Kohn (who contradicts Papacostea and Ciobanu), because it is a tertiary source ([2]). Borsoka (talk) 16:26, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
- Not at all: Papacostea says no such thing. Not one iota of that text as you yourself quoted it says anything resembling "Casimir had not intervened before Colomea". In fact, he says that the occupation of the ports (long before Colomea!) prompted Casimir's intervention -- he doesn't go into more detail than that, and certainly does not invalidate the account about the league. And your creative reading also applies to my own posts, apparently: I said I did not wish to use Kohn not because it is tertiary, but because it probably has more to say about Stephen than that one entry, and I personally dislike citing books that say much more on the subject than gbooks allows me to read. It seems dishonest to me, but evidently not to you; either way, it is a preference, and your insistence that I find a source (to state outright what you for some reason refuse to believe) prompted me to use it after all. No, I will not disregard what sources say because you disagree with them, that is simply not an option. Dahn (talk) 16:36, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
- Yes. Bain must be a highly reliable source, because he wrote his book almost 110 years ago. I clarified that the Ottomans were driven out of Moldavia even before they invaded it, because I know that we should emphasize that Poland had formed a league with unspecified members even before the Colomea meeting. Borsoka (talk) 15:08, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
- I have double-checked. Bain, loc. cit., specifically refers to Poland's accession to an anti-Ottoman league before Colomea, and after the fall of both ports, argues that the Poles actually "drove the Turks out of Moldavia" before even getting to Colomea, and then notes that the league was "frustrated" by Corvinus' double-dealing. Kohn also states that Poland formed a league and then drove the Turks from Moldavia, and then advanced on Colomea. If you have a source that expressly contradicts these, use it and we will note the controversy. If not, please call it a day. Dahn (talk) 10:10, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- We should only respect the cited sources. For instance, if a scholar (Parry) refers to the years 1485-87, we should not pretend that he writes of the years 1483-1484 ([1]). I think this is a quite simple approach and none of us needs to make major cognitive efforts to follow this rule. Borsoka (talk) 08:10, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- Modified to what??? Make a suggestion that does not involve OR about how to mention the league in the absence of more precise detail about "what happened when". Dahn (talk) 07:51, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- Sorry, I would like to avoid that readers of the article should make cognitive efforts to understand what happened when. That is why I suggest that the text should be modified. Borsoka (talk) 07:48, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- They talk of a league, and they place that before Colomea, and in fact they say that the march on Colomea was an act of war. I can't vouch that this means it absolutely happened before Colomea (though I probably does mean that, I'll give the benefit of the doubt). But try and comprehend this, for the last time: there is nothing in our text that says it happened before Colomea. Just that it happened. Really, make that cognitive effort. Dahn (talk) 07:45, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- Would you quote the sources referring to an anti-Ottoman "league" before the meeting at Colomea? Yes, I agree that 95% of your edits highly improved the article. The problem is that you are unable to accept that 5% of your edicts should be changed in order to be fully in line WP policies. Instead of trying the solve the problems, you are making ad personam remarks. Actually, it is really funny. Borsoka (talk) 07:40, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- I understand the concept of WP:SYNTH. You connected Kohn's concept of a "league" with Tatar raids against Poland, although none of the sources cited verify this connection. I have not edited the article for more than 24 hours. Please try to understand that articles cannot be expropriated for days. Borsoka (talk) 07:09, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
A query
When you have the time, please check your formatting of Grabarczyk. You gave a page number in the full citation at the bottom, but another page in all the citations up to that. And they're presumably all on one page, since it's an encyclopedia entry. But which one is the right page? Dahn (talk) 18:55, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- Also, your citation from Freely is unusable, because you failed to relevant page number(s), or at least a chapter, and it's a large book. Clean it up or I'll remove it. Dahn (talk) 09:14, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for addressing Grabarczyk. Now: how about Freely? Dahn (talk) 15:01, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Imperial titles
Based on Muresan, we are informed that Stephen adopted unspecified imperial titles at an unspecified date, but he was not threatened by excommunication. I think we should clarify this issues (the imperial titles and the date of their adoption), if we want to decide, whether this piece of information is relevant at the beginning of his reign, or he only later adopted those titles. Borsoka (talk) 16:15, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
- He only later did, but the precise date is unknown. Also do remove the bit about Ohrid: I wanted to add it myself, but only Cantemir claimed that it was Ohrid where he had been ordained; other historians who do not back this claim (which is apparently grossly incorrect) do still claim that Cantemir was right about other things. All sourced from Mureșan, loc. cit. Dahn (talk) 16:20, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
- If he only later used imperial titles, why is this mentioned at the beginning of his rule? What were the imperial titles? Does Muresan mention this story in connection with Stephen's use of Christian devices, or this is only an original synthesis? I think we should clarifiy that the Orthodoxy of Teoctist has never been questioned. Borsoka (talk) 16:32, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
- 1) Tsar, for instance. 2) Yes, he does. He says that Stephen's recourse to Christian Byzantine imagery invalidates every claim that he was a schismatic. 3) It depends what you mean by "his Orthodoxy": the breakaway Orthodox churches also viewed themselves,but not each other, as Orthodox; yes, there have been historians who question(ed) that, his belonging to this or that church, in reference to him. Dahn (talk) 16:39, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
- If he only later used imperial titles, why is this mentioned at the beginning of his rule? What were the imperial titles? Does Muresan mention this story in connection with Stephen's use of Christian devices, or this is only an original synthesis? I think we should clarifiy that the Orthodoxy of Teoctist has never been questioned. Borsoka (talk) 16:32, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
Treptow
Could you explain your edit? ([3]) Why do you think that Ciobanu (1991) is not unreliable? He wrote in a book edited by Treptow. Or what about Jonathan Eagles, he referred to Treptow in his book? Should we delete all references to them? Borsoka (talk) 16:41, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
- If you allow yourself to police Bain, even when his account was validated by other sources and his reputation was never once questioned, it is quite reasonable to assume that we should apply at least the same standard to anything touched by Treptow (and Watts). Evidently: no, we do not police against Eagles, because a historian's job is to review even questionable sources and publish his own conclusions as to their validity (for instance, a historian will use Hitler, not just Churchill, as a source). Dahn (talk) 16:45, 31 July 2017 (UTC)