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:: There's a reason why these statements sound differently :) One suggests direct involvement, and one suggests high-level organizational involvement. I think, without such distinction I could put confusing "terrorist" occupation to all leaders of, say, ISIS. [[User:AS|<span style='color: blue4'>AS</span>]] [[User talk:Pustomytnyk|<sup><span style='color: blue4'>sa</span></sup>]] 14:33, 9 January 2021 (UTC) |
:: There's a reason why these statements sound differently :) One suggests direct involvement, and one suggests high-level organizational involvement. I think, without such distinction I could put confusing "terrorist" occupation to all leaders of, say, ISIS. [[User:AS|<span style='color: blue4'>AS</span>]] [[User talk:Pustomytnyk|<sup><span style='color: blue4'>sa</span></sup>]] 14:33, 9 January 2021 (UTC) |
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* Now, as I said at ANI, I am in principle fine with [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stepan_Bandera&diff=999215361&oldid=999193783&diffmode=source this version], but I am absolutely not fine with how this version was pushed through to the article. We need to fine consensus here before reinstating it.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 16:58, 11 January 2021 (UTC) |
* Now, as I said at ANI, I am in principle fine with [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stepan_Bandera&diff=999215361&oldid=999193783&diffmode=source this version], but I am absolutely not fine with how this version was pushed through to the article. We need to fine consensus here before reinstating it.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 16:58, 11 January 2021 (UTC) |
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::Ymblanter, frankly, your comment is equally applicable to both sides of this edit war. Thus, [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stepan_Bandera&type=revision&diff=999193783&oldid=999186364 this your edit summary] is hardly acceptable. Our policy does not prohibit to be a Ukrainian editor, and we even don't know if Aced is Ukrainian. In reality, Aced's edit converted our amateurish style to a true ecyclopedic: his arguments are umpeccable, I checked, and even ben Laden is not characterised as a terrorist in the article about him. In addition, there is no reason to put "terrorist" to the beginning, because Bandera was famous not for his terrorist activity, but for being an ideological leader of far-right (fascist) Ukrainian nationalism. Therefore, that should be his primary descriptor, whereas his terrorist activity should not be emphasized too much. In addition, I don't see how Aced's edit fits edit war criteria: he made just one edit, and that edit was not a revert but an improvement of the text. He provided a convincing ratio0nale, and I see absolutely no reason to call it an edit war. |
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::I totally realised that after being involved in hot debates and edit wars with ''true'' nationalists it is easy to lose patience. However, in that case, it seems we are not dealing with nationalism and edit warring here. I think, the best way would be if you (or I, if you prefer that) restored Aced's version, and after that the incident can be considered resolved.--[[User:Paul Siebert|Paul Siebert]] ([[User talk:Paul Siebert|talk]]) 17:25, 11 January 2021 (UTC) |
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== Attitudes in Ukraine towards Bandera == |
== Attitudes in Ukraine towards Bandera == |
Revision as of 17:25, 11 January 2021
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Demonizing with fake reference
For example -
"Bandera remains a highly controversial figure in Ukraine, ... while others consider him to be a Nazi collaborationist (and source here - BBC Ukrainian | For Polish – bandit, for Ukrainians – hero".
So, "controversial in Ukraine", but reference says "For Polish (aka in Poland)". Just one example of multiple manipulations over this article. "178.92.184.117 (talk) 16:51, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
- This exactly means there is no controversy about Bandera in Poland - basically everybody considers him Nazi collaborator, Nazi theorist, and organizer of crimes against civil population.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:53, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
"Basically everybody considers in Poland" is a very scientific argument. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.200.245.20 (talk) 20:21, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
Ukrainian terrorist?
Bander being a terrorist is a very bold statement. Even Russian and Polish wiki articles don’t call him that.
There are no acts of terror mentioned in this article. Markiyanv (talk) 22:53, 1 January 2021 (UTC)<--- — Markiyanv (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. See also ArbCom Motion (May 2020) - [1] - GizzyCatBella🍁 08:07, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
- Ref. 1 is a reliable source and calls him "head of terrorist activities". I have not checked other references, or, in fact, did not go beyond the abstract,--Ymblanter (talk) 23:29, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
- To say that a person, who is one of the heroes of Ukrainian culture is a terrorist you can't base it on a single source, even if it is reliable. Please delete this definition.--Andriy.v (talk) 09:35, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- Agree that ref. 1 is reliable source, it is correct to maintain the term.--Mhorg (talk) 09:50, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- If all others reliable sourses do not mention that Bandera was a terrorist, you of course chose one that mention this, right? I think it's uncorrect and do not response to the WP:NPV politic.--Andriy.v (talk) 10:56, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- The CIA talked about Bandera's OUN "terrorist activities" and also the OSCE. For example also many historians such as Timothy D. Snyder.--Mhorg (talk) 11:16, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- And all this sources do not defines him as a terrorist. It is so hard to write "according to ... he participated on terrorist acts..."? It is the most neutral and close to wikipedia politics way to define a controverse character as Bandera. Instead you want to define him in first instance as terrorist. All the sources defines him as leader of OUN-UPA in first instance than politician with right-wing ideas (nationalist or ultranationalist), but no one defines him as terrorist, expecialy in first instance. This character known oviously not for his terrorists acts (according the sourse). People, reading this article, see this definiscion: "Stepan Andriyovych Bandera was a Ukrainian terrorist" which is clearly uncorrect way to define this character.--Andriy.v (talk) 11:51, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- To be honest, there is nothing controversial about him outside of Ukraine: He is universally defined as terrorist, ultranationalist, Nazi collaborator, and Holocaust theorist. Concerning specifically a terrorist, the above sources plainly call them one. There are many more sources available.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:00, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- I agree, that he known to be ultranationalist, maybe Nazi collaborator (during Nazi inviasion of the Soviet Union), but he certanly do not known to be terrorist. And again, in the sources he not defined as terrorist, so please delete this definition. If you have some reliable sources that clearly define him as terrorists show it, if not you can not define him in first instance as terrorist.--Andriy.v (talk) 12:49, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- But you have got sources above. For example, Timothy Snyder writes "Young terrorists such as Stepan Bandera..."--Ymblanter (talk) 13:32, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- The first and most reliable source i found Britannica. Is Britannica defines him as terrorist? I see "Stepan Bandera Ukrainian political leader", so why Wikipedia may define him as terrorist in first instance? Or Britannica wrong and should define him as terrorist too?--Andriy.v (talk) 13:37, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- Britannica does not have an article on Bandera, so I do not quite see your point.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:50, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- https://www.britannica.com/biography/Stepan-Bandera and this what is it? Is wikipedia need an article to be used as source? Brittannica is one of most reliable sources and she define him not as terrorist. I think this is enough to understand that the definition "Bandera was a terrorist" is wrong.--Andriy.v (talk) 13:58, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- Britannica does not have an article on Bandera, so I do not quite see your point.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:50, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- The first and most reliable source i found Britannica. Is Britannica defines him as terrorist? I see "Stepan Bandera Ukrainian political leader", so why Wikipedia may define him as terrorist in first instance? Or Britannica wrong and should define him as terrorist too?--Andriy.v (talk) 13:37, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- But you have got sources above. For example, Timothy Snyder writes "Young terrorists such as Stepan Bandera..."--Ymblanter (talk) 13:32, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- I agree, that he known to be ultranationalist, maybe Nazi collaborator (during Nazi inviasion of the Soviet Union), but he certanly do not known to be terrorist. And again, in the sources he not defined as terrorist, so please delete this definition. If you have some reliable sources that clearly define him as terrorists show it, if not you can not define him in first instance as terrorist.--Andriy.v (talk) 12:49, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- To be honest, there is nothing controversial about him outside of Ukraine: He is universally defined as terrorist, ultranationalist, Nazi collaborator, and Holocaust theorist. Concerning specifically a terrorist, the above sources plainly call them one. There are many more sources available.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:00, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- And all this sources do not defines him as a terrorist. It is so hard to write "according to ... he participated on terrorist acts..."? It is the most neutral and close to wikipedia politics way to define a controverse character as Bandera. Instead you want to define him in first instance as terrorist. All the sources defines him as leader of OUN-UPA in first instance than politician with right-wing ideas (nationalist or ultranationalist), but no one defines him as terrorist, expecialy in first instance. This character known oviously not for his terrorists acts (according the sourse). People, reading this article, see this definiscion: "Stepan Andriyovych Bandera was a Ukrainian terrorist" which is clearly uncorrect way to define this character.--Andriy.v (talk) 11:51, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- The CIA talked about Bandera's OUN "terrorist activities" and also the OSCE. For example also many historians such as Timothy D. Snyder.--Mhorg (talk) 11:16, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- If all others reliable sourses do not mention that Bandera was a terrorist, you of course chose one that mention this, right? I think it's uncorrect and do not response to the WP:NPV politic.--Andriy.v (talk) 10:56, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- Agree that ref. 1 is reliable source, it is correct to maintain the term.--Mhorg (talk) 09:50, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- To say that a person, who is one of the heroes of Ukrainian culture is a terrorist you can't base it on a single source, even if it is reliable. Please delete this definition.--Andriy.v (talk) 09:35, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- If we just mirror what EB says, why Wikipedia is needed? EB describes Bandera as a political leader, and this article says the same, so there is no contradiction with EB. However, in addition to that, this article includes a notion that he was a terrorist also. In general, this article contains a lot of information about Bandera that is not found in Encyclopaedia Britannica. If your argument against the word "terrorist" is based only upon the fact that EB doesn't say so, then let's remove all information that is not found in EB. Is it what you propose? --Paul Siebert (talk) 14:51, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- This is a notification that there in no article on Bandera in Britannica, and information on him can be found in another article.--Ymblanter (talk) 15:51, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- @Ymblanter: Could you provide a more detailed explanation for this edit? My nationality is not a great argument. What is the evidence from reliable sources that "terrorist" is Bandera's most important characteristic? I do see evidence that reliable sources call him a terrorist; what I don't see is the evidence that he is mainly known for this trait. --Aced (talk) 23:36, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- The attack on the page is clearly externally coordinated, all users participating in the current disruption have relatively low edit count and are native Ukrainian speakers. I know that in the Ukrainian Wikipedia such flash mobs are considered quite normal, but we are not going to tolerate this here.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:32, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
- There is currently a discussion related to this on Ukrainian Wikipedia Village Pump, uk:Вікіпедія:Кнайпа_(різне)#Сумна_знахідка_в_Англовікі, with a call for editors who specialise in history to find additional neutral reliable sources on the topic. That is not too different from e.g. a message to relevant Wikiproject. Although I agree it would be more graceful if it was one, I would kindly ask you not to single out fellow Wikipedians who are Ukrainian speakers and who are here to contribute, and call this an attack and a disruption. --Base (talk) 23:29, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
- You're missing a big anti-terrorist operation. AS sa 23:45, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
- Indeed, we are now a couple of steps further.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:59, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
- There is currently a discussion related to this on Ukrainian Wikipedia Village Pump, uk:Вікіпедія:Кнайпа_(різне)#Сумна_знахідка_в_Англовікі, with a call for editors who specialise in history to find additional neutral reliable sources on the topic. That is not too different from e.g. a message to relevant Wikiproject. Although I agree it would be more graceful if it was one, I would kindly ask you not to single out fellow Wikipedians who are Ukrainian speakers and who are here to contribute, and call this an attack and a disruption. --Base (talk) 23:29, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
- The attack on the page is clearly externally coordinated, all users participating in the current disruption have relatively low edit count and are native Ukrainian speakers. I know that in the Ukrainian Wikipedia such flash mobs are considered quite normal, but we are not going to tolerate this here.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:32, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
- And, more to the point: You probably know that Bandera was sentenced to death in 1933 by a Polish court (and the sentence was commuted to life imprisonmenmt). Have you ever checked what the charges were?--Ymblanter (talk) 07:43, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
- @Ymblanter: I have. It seems that you are trying to imply that I deny Bandera's involvement in terrorism. As I had already pointed out both in the edit summary and in my comment on the talk page, I don't deny it; I'm talking about a weight of different characteristics here. --Aced (talk) 11:04, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
- And, more to the point: You probably know that Bandera was sentenced to death in 1933 by a Polish court (and the sentence was commuted to life imprisonmenmt). Have you ever checked what the charges were?--Ymblanter (talk) 07:43, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
The most terroristic terrorist Osama bin Laden doesn't have "terrorist" in the definition. It would be ambiguous, as Andriy.v correctly mentioned; it just suggests wrong level of involvement. AS sa 02:25, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
- He does, though, "founder of the terrorist group".--Ymblanter (talk) 07:30, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
- I think the mention "terrorist" is appropriate for Bandera, as from the Marples and Snyder sources. So I think it should be kept on the page. Darkcloud2222 (talk) 10:41, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
- There's a reason why these statements sound differently :) One suggests direct involvement, and one suggests high-level organizational involvement. I think, without such distinction I could put confusing "terrorist" occupation to all leaders of, say, ISIS. AS sa 14:33, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
- Now, as I said at ANI, I am in principle fine with this version, but I am absolutely not fine with how this version was pushed through to the article. We need to fine consensus here before reinstating it.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:58, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
- Ymblanter, frankly, your comment is equally applicable to both sides of this edit war. Thus, this your edit summary is hardly acceptable. Our policy does not prohibit to be a Ukrainian editor, and we even don't know if Aced is Ukrainian. In reality, Aced's edit converted our amateurish style to a true ecyclopedic: his arguments are umpeccable, I checked, and even ben Laden is not characterised as a terrorist in the article about him. In addition, there is no reason to put "terrorist" to the beginning, because Bandera was famous not for his terrorist activity, but for being an ideological leader of far-right (fascist) Ukrainian nationalism. Therefore, that should be his primary descriptor, whereas his terrorist activity should not be emphasized too much. In addition, I don't see how Aced's edit fits edit war criteria: he made just one edit, and that edit was not a revert but an improvement of the text. He provided a convincing ratio0nale, and I see absolutely no reason to call it an edit war.
- I totally realised that after being involved in hot debates and edit wars with true nationalists it is easy to lose patience. However, in that case, it seems we are not dealing with nationalism and edit warring here. I think, the best way would be if you (or I, if you prefer that) restored Aced's version, and after that the incident can be considered resolved.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:25, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
Attitudes in Ukraine towards Bandera
The information in this section is pre-war (2009) and is therefore obsolete. It should be mentioned in this section that the attitudes of many Ukrainians changed, sometimes dramatically and radically, after the Russian invasion to Ukraine and the annexation of the Crimea. Since 2014, a lot of Ukrainians have been critical and not too sympathetic of the Russian viewpoints on WWII and other historical events and figures, often rejecting Kremlin cliches and versions:
Therefore, the popular attitude to Bandera may be quite different at present contrasted to 2009, and this information is kind of irrelevant for the time being. While it does not have to be removed, the above remarks and reference should be added for a clearer picture, as one gets the wrong impression from reading this as few foreigners realize the before and after 2014 thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Igorvkalinin (talk • contribs) 10:27, 2 January 2021 (UTC) Igorvkalinin (talk) 10:29, 2 January 2021 (UTC)