m →International Law: Continuing ==Cleaning up bias and sloppy citations== |
|||
Line 183: | Line 183: | ||
It has just dawned upon me the source: I suspect that one of our major contributors is probably American, Christian and Female, or a least I reckon I got two out of three right. Not of any signifigance in itself excepting that it would explain why the above poor citation wouldn't be considered biased by such a person or persons. And then we have happy go lucky "holiday fun in the sun" female editors in the "Female sex tourism" artcle obviously. |
It has just dawned upon me the source: I suspect that one of our major contributors is probably American, Christian and Female, or a least I reckon I got two out of three right. Not of any signifigance in itself excepting that it would explain why the above poor citation wouldn't be considered biased by such a person or persons. And then we have happy go lucky "holiday fun in the sun" female editors in the "Female sex tourism" artcle obviously. |
||
I have to find a citation and _ADD_ something about child sex under the Cambodia reference. It is well known that aging Thai men particularly including those of high office have a prediliction to picking up very young women in their limosines and taking them to "drive-in" "love- |
I have to find a citation and _ADD_ something about child sex under the Cambodia reference. It is well known that aging Thai men particularly including those of high office have a prediliction to picking up very young women in their limosines and taking them to "drive-in" "love-motels" (I know as I have been to one (with an "over-age")) it being a popular cultural notion or superstutition there that an old man sleeping with a young <~15 year old, especially virgin, will thereby renew his virility if not his aging vigour. That said, underage sex in Thailand in or outside of "sex tourism" is a very minor part of the overall sex trade there. I am well aware that the same cannot be said of Cambodia, and as I now know the Dominican Republic, and an entirely different scale of child sexual exploitation occurs there. I am glad I haven't visited either of them. About Thailand though I am an expert and Pattaya is _THE_ sex tourism destination after all so generalizations like the above therefore just do not cut the mustard i'm afraid. [[User:Mattjs|Mattjs]] 18:58, 9 January 2007 (UTC) |
Revision as of 19:01, 9 January 2007
Archives |
---|
2006: early | Knodel1 | Knodel2 | Arbitration |
2007: |
Feminist bias?
The article contained such phrases before I edited them out as "romance travel" and "holiday boyfriends" under the female sex tourism section. While I acknowledge that male sex tourists greatly outnumber female sex tourists, is this any excuse for a feminist bias to be present in the article? How are female sex tourists any different than male sex tourists? How is a male prostitute in Jamaica a "holiday boyfriend" but a go-go bar dancer in Bangkok is simply a prostitute? What exactly makes it romance travel as opposed to sex tourism? I'd like these questions answered. Also, why is there not a section of this article listing reasons for sex tourism including such reasons as "romance" like there is in the female sex tourism article? Pasi Nurminen
- Beats me. I'm guessing much of the difference is marketing lingo, but I don't have any verification for that hypothesis.
- I wouldn't call the bias "feminist" tho. There have been a couple editors on this article who wanted to push a rather rose-colored POV on the sex tourism business; advancing similar descriptions of "female sex tourism" was part of their agenda.
- I can't think of a more fair or accurate word than prostitute (your choice[1]), but I would add language like (euphemistically called "holiday boyfriends"). Again, verfication permitting.
- I'm not working on the Female sex tourism article, but I acknowlege it's a mess. — edgarde 11:33, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
- I guess use of the term "feminist" was a tad strong, but personal conversations lend to my belief that only those with a female bias do tend to refer to it as "romance travel" rather than sex tourism.Pasi Nurminen
"Child Sex Tourism" versus "Sex Torusim" and no article yet for it???
I was a little surprised on returning to this article to find that there is no separate article for "Child sex tourism" although the article on the "Prostitution of children" refers to it but the link simply brings you back here to "Sex Tourism"!!! (On reflection this was probably what subconciously fired me up to make comments here before on the location issue and article tone before.)
This is bad. I think that there is a vast difference between the two subjects: one arguably morally (typically religiously) questionable and the other regarded by the vast majority of human beings and cultures with few exceptions as a heinous crime in contravention of the UN Convention on the Right of the Child (CRC) whose predecesor convention dates back half a century ago! (Similar conventions and national laws on industrial exploitation of children date back to the industrial revolution.)
I think splitting article like this would go along way to avoiding objections to the articles pejorative and moralistic sound which makes sense given it oscilates between holiday sex fun and child sexual exploitation!!!??? (I just cannot believe this!?)
I am quite astounded and perplexed by all of this?. Anyone else agree or disagree? (And I dont see how anyone can take the latter position so if you do so please be up front enough to lay bare your cultural and religious prejudicies before doing so!) And I volutneer my efforst to take all the child sex reference out of the article to a link into the "Child sex tourism" article proper! Mattjs 20:38, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
NOTE THAT DOING SO MAY HELP HALF THE SIZE OF THIS DISCUSSION PAGE WHICH IS MORE THAN 10 TIMES THE LENGTH OF THE ARTICLE! Mattjs 21:01, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Length of Talk Page
- Loud talk page disputes are not sufficient reason to fork the article. As for the length of this page, I'll probably make an archive once the current arbitration is closed. (Follow progress here if you like.) / edgarde 20:43, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Distinction from "child sex tourism"
- The issue of "child sex tourism" has been discussed previously on this page (also in early 2006, and in the current arbitration). There's not much reason to divide the two, other than the (understandable) position of sex tourism advocates not wanting the practice associated with child prostitution, which unfortunately is a major attraction for some sex tourists, while other sex tourists (there's a link to a study somewhere, unless it's been deleted) are happy to sample whatever's on the menu, regardless of age.
- Forking the article along those lines would be like creating different pages for "abusive" and "non-abusive" sex tourism. It's an artificial distinction made mostly to avoid NPOV. POV forks are strongly discouraged on Wikipedia. / edgarde 20:43, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Self-links under Tourism involving sex with minors
- Unless I'm missing something, the link that "simply brings you back here to "Sex Tourism"!!!" may have been a temporary by-product of the recent edit war. The child prostitution links currently under Tourism involving sex with minors all link to Prostitution of children. / edgarde 20:43, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
- On the contrary: go to Prostitution of children and click the Child sex tourism link on the second last line of the first section and it will bring you back here to the top of the Sex tourism article proper. While I accept some of your comments I do not agree at all that separating criminal activities from cultural ones is necessarily a POV issue. I will be up front and suggest a consequence that if this link persists I will come back and personally change it so that it points to a new and empty "Child sex tourism" related article instead. I would only be pacified otherwise if it perhaps dropped you instead into the "Child sex tourism" parts of this article that I take exception to... My argument as always is that "Sex Tourism" and words like "prostitute" are extremely POV and culturally laden labels. Mattjs 17:09, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- Okay I see what you're saying. That would need to be fixed on Prostitution of children. I thought you were reporting a self-link within Sex tourism. To link directly to the article subsection, pipe it like so:
- [[Sex tourism#Tourism involving sex with minors|child sex tourism]]
- / edgarde 18:18, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- I will let myself cool off a bit before considering: [[Sex tourism#Tourism involving sex with minors|child sex tourism]] or again a separate article [[Sex tourism and paedophilia]]. But if I dont get around to it in a couple of weeks you are welcome to execute the first option. 220.240.58.190 21:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- I'll restore it for the time being. Two weeks is too long for the link to lay broken. If you get a decent article together, you can redirect at that time. / edgarde 21:47, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- For some more examples which I have no doubt cittations can be found for: I suspect that sex tourism within Thailand is almost a traditional Thai male activity there (some huge percentage of Thai men (like 80%-90%)lose their virginity with a "prostitute" as evidenced from studies of the military so that "prostitution" has acompletely different cultural flavour there; and, travel by young rural woman in Iran to cities like the capital Tehran who then marry older men - with full Moslem i.e. Sharia legality - for a short-time only before divorcing again, doing so purely for finacial gain upon entering the "big city" having negotiated before the "marriage" so-called a suitable remuneration. Interesting angles on the Sex Tourism pejorative don't you think? (I shall find citations and put this stuff in the article proper to keep it fair and balanced particularly if the previous poster was correct in suggesting the related article on "female sez tourism" had a somewhat "holiday sun fun" POV! (uhum uhuh uhuh urgh choking...)) ;-) Mattjs 17:09, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- Definitely interesting stuff.
- What you're describing in Thailand would fall more under Prostitution than here. I don't edit that article much, but I think that article mostly describes prostitution from a Western sex industry model — the phenomenon you're describing might add an excellent non-Western perspective. If you can get some citations, let me know if you need help introducing it to that article.
- I've never heard of the short-term Sharia-legal marriage for quick financial gain before. Is there a name for that practice? It doesn't fit the recognized definition of "Sex tourism", nor does it fit "prostitution" very well. I wonder if sociology has a name for things of this nature. In my country, we refer to it as Gold digging, which interestingly Wikipedia only covers within the articles Age disparity in sexual relationships and Gabor sisters.
- Yes I dont know if there is a name for it but I learnt about it from a teledocumentary that was quite a suprise and eye opener - to find that in a supposedly strict moslem society if not the strictest in the world (though still one of the most sexually repressive in a different way: i.e. is only with respect to women!) there is an ease of sexual relations akin to Thialand's! Not something many people know or hear about the moslem world every day!! 220.240.58.190 21:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- Definitely interesting stuff.
- I think studies (sorry I don't have links handy and don't feel like searching now) demonstrate different tendencies between male and female sex tourists. Andy while I think these differences are notable, I don't think so-called "romance tourism" is something distinct from "sex tourism".
As for the "holiday sun & fun" angle, I think advocates for both male and female sex tourism attempt to promote the activity as harmless (even beneficial) recreation for open-minded adults, and play down the effects it has on tourist-receiving countries. / edgarde 18:18, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- I think studies (sorry I don't have links handy and don't feel like searching now) demonstrate different tendencies between male and female sex tourists. Andy while I think these differences are notable, I don't think so-called "romance tourism" is something distinct from "sex tourism".
- You may be right there may well be a possibility or suggestion of increased peadophilic activity associated with male sex tourism (and it wouldnt surprise me at all) but one would again need to justify this with citations it rather than implicitly suggesting it by including the two subjects in the one article. Leading here too is your comment "the effects it has on tourist-receiving countries" again uncited and sugestive: in the case of Thailand I would argue that on the balance (male) sex tourism (aside from the introduction of HIV which was probably inevatble anyway particularly given Thai male predilictions) has been ultimately an overwelming positive one - though I confess to you I dont get any pleasure out of saying it - it brings huge wads of hard foriegn cash into the country and improves the lives of many including putting food into the mouths of many very poor north eastern Thai farm girls and their families (not to mention an amazing new industry of western retirees with their thai consorts that has arisen up there now!) and the Thai Goverment knows well its value to the economy too which is by no means insignificant. 220.240.58.190 21:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- There are no "facts" and objective POVs: all so called "facts" and purportedly neutral POVs are comvenient but culturally laden "fictions" ... you should read David Hume on cause and effect sometime... Regards, Mattjs 17:09, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the tip. I take the word "fact" to mean an observable, verifiable phenomenon, and I based on that I think facts exist and can be agreed on by intelligent and thoughtful people given access to the evidence. Wikipedia's verifiability policy is an attempt to root articles in facts, or at least provide a foundation for disputes on facts. As for "culturally laden fictions", I agree such exists, but I also think there are ways to discuss different cultural interpretations of the same information without disputing facts, or even necessarily creating a conflict. That would also be a goal for Wikipedia articles. / edgarde 18:18, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- Things are never so simple to the philosophically open minded: every supposed fact is embedded in a cultural milieu or context and so open to contestation - point blank - but it would be better if we pass over this one or we will never see the end of it. If I had offered to write a "Round Earth" article for the medieval Wikipedia serveral many hundreds of years ago it would have been rejected without consideration. :-D 220.240.58.190 21:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- THERE I am placated now!: the "Child sex tourism" link in Prostitution of children now goes to Child sex tourism and paedophilia where it might be appropriate to discuss the wide difference in POVs between a culturally variable concept of Sex toursim and internationally recognized and long held conceptions of criminal "paedophilic sex tourism with children" and perhaps a better article name even...—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mattjs (talk • contribs) 2007-01-07T17:35:01 (UTC)
- I would recommend you not create a dead link, per WP:DISRUPT. Consider the above instructions on how to link directly to the Tourism involving sex with minors section. / edgarde 18:27, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- Here is where I have to pull you up as you are again making some comments that I feel show a bias: I am certain that deep in the Wikipedia policies if I searched I could find a requirement to communicate with etiqete UPON THE TERMS REQUESTED OF THE COMMUNICATOR: i.e. that you lay bare your politcal, cultural and religious biases upon commenting as I had asked and I reiterate my request fopr you to do so now!? I think this is reasonable as they were the terms under which I commenced the conversation on this topic as I made very clear. This is an extremely POV and culturaly laden subject as you are well aware and I think the only way that progress will be made I beleive is if the Political, Cultural and Religious positions of the particpants are made clear at the outset. If you disagree then I will go in search of a Wikipedia policy to support my own request! I confess I havent yet laid bare my own biases but I am more than happy to do so. But all this aside I appreciate and enjoy your comments: these Talk back pages do seem to be a great place to hunt and weed out political biases of one kind or another as well as honing ones own arguments but you are right that one must take care to be discursive and pedagogical rather than adversarial. 220.240.58.190 21:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- Replying to this one on the talk page for 220.240.58.190. / edgarde 21:47, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
"Pejorative and moralistic sound"
- Although this page does not consistently portray sex tourism as a harmless activity, I don't see the article as having a moralistic tone. Are there specific passages you are concerned about? / edgarde 20:43, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
- Yes there are and I have been fixing them and leading into legal issues to be expounded upon as the subject of another article. Mattjs 14:30, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Post-arbitration update
Just made the following changes:
- Archived most of this Talk page. Linked at top — see file cabinet icon. Permanent link archive method is used to prevent vandalism.
- Restored more specific language addressing concerns about sex tourism, referencing U.N.[2] Previous editors favored vague language like "some advocacy groups" or "a number of individuals" ... "had expressed concerns" — this was contrary to the spirit of WP:WEASEL.
- Deleted booklist.[3] None of these books were used to write this article. A similar booklist can be obtained by searching "sex tourism" at Amazon (where I got all the ISBN #'s), so it's kind of pointless in this article.
- Began footnoting citations for different countries as sex tourism destinations. This will take a while. Some of the countries here are from the "legal prostitution travel guide" version of this article, so it is possible not every country is a major sex tourism destination. This section may be much-edited or reorganized.
My goal here is not to establish a canonical version of this article, but to undo some of the damage from the edit war. / edgarde 09:53, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
The other option: merge Female Sex Tourism with Sex Tourism
Just checked it out over there as although they decided to keep the article they left open the possibility of a merger. This would be one way of placating me as the undesireable elements of peadophilia here would get watered down with "holiday fun in the sun" from Female Sex Tourism. User:Edgarde couldn't possibly have any objections to it as it either suits the arguments he has already used or will prove to be his "reductio ad absurdam". So which is it User:Edgarde??? Mattjs 22:17, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Merge proposal
- First an answer to your question. Presuming Female sex tourism would be merged into Sex tourism, the discussion should start over there. I don't know enough about that article to decide if it can stand by itself. I have no objection to the merge. Check the merge procedure if you want to initiate that discussion.
- I'm not sure who edits that article, so also mention the merge proposal on Wikipedia:Proposed mergers.
- However, if your objection is that "the undesireable elements of peadophilia here would get watered down" (as you put it), that by itself is not a good reason for the merge. (I'm not sure if that is your intent because some of what you are saying is ambiguous to my reading.) If that really is your goal, perhaps you should ask a neutral party for help in performing the merge. / edgarde 23:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
"the undesireable elements of peadophilia"
- Option to what?
- I don't understand why you're linking everything back to pedophilia, as if other topics within sex tourism needed some kind of parity or set some kind of precedent with how pedophilia is treated. One topic is not equivalent to another, and everything worth considering is worth considering on its own merits. / edgarde 23:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
The term "peadophilia"
- One more thing. You've used the term "peadophilia" a few times now. This term often (especially in clinical and scientific usage) specificly means a sexual attraction to pre-pubescent persons. The term "child prostitution" (which is what I think we're talking about) is preferable because it includes young adolescents below legal age. I mention this not to nit-pick with you, but for clarity's sake. For what it's worth, another editor on this discussion page has been quite snitty over this distinction, and while I think you and I are talking about the same thing, going off on that tangent again (presumably in the event another editor joins) would waste us much time. / edgarde 23:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Why so personal?
- My questions:
- Why is this addressed personally to me in this So which is it User:Edgarde??? fashion?
- Why is "placating" you my responsibility?
- I wouldn't bother with it here, but this is the 2nd time you've turned this into some kind of personal attack. It's not necessary, and I think I have explained my reasoning at some length. / edgarde 23:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- I get your drift and I think I have adequately explained mine. It seems you have no objections as in fact a complete merger is in tune with your own arguments about the whole field being one subject. I just see child prostitution as a separate field entriely though I don't see female "fun in the sun" as essentially any different although the articles seemingly are: "Sex Tourism" effectively "Male Sex Tourism" since that is clearly the articles target versus the "Female Sex Tourism" article and there of course are few Female Child Sex Predators. I only used the term "paedophilia" to emphasize the distinction I was making and don't want to spilt hairs either. Though one hair is: I dont know if there is any difference at law between prebuscent or non-prepuscent child sex as usually it all seems to I think fall under the general ambit of "carnel knowledge with a minor under the age of consent" and in most modern countries this is always way above the age of puberty. For me both are vastly different activities compared to travelling to have sex with someone, whether with payment in money or in kind or not, in a foriegn country where sex between consenting adults even with the exchange of money is perfectly legal activity in my country and in theirs. Mattjs 01:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
- Perhaps there are conflicting cultural issues here too as I live in a country - Australia - where prostitution has for as long as I can remember (all my life or adult life probably) in all our states has been perfectly legal. Whereas Wikipedia may well be hosted in the US and most importantly where prostitution is still a serious crime in many if not most of your states, and you yourself may well be American. The leap then from underage sex or child prostitution to consenting sex for money with an adult may not be such a big one for someone who lives in a country where adult prostitution is itself a serious crime whereas for me that is an enormous leap indeed. We in Australia have "Child Sex Tourism" laws, and were probably one of the first countries to introduce them, such that Australians are not permitted to engage in sex with a minor in or outside of Australia under the age of 16 years. The same may not be true for an American overseas. What is true is that Bush has further criminalized prostitution with new "Sex tourism" laws in the US though I dont know the exact details but they have effected those companies doing internet bride business and organising sex related to travel. Mattjs 01:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
- My asking about politics, culture, religion may not have been so far out of line as you thought: cultural issues do predominate here. I hope this clears up for you as it does for me as I may have a better handle on where perhaps you or other people like you may be coming from and ditto for my own perspective. I didnt mean for it to get personal but I think I just explained more adequately again why I persoanlly draw huge distinctions between the two types of sex tourism one of which I wouldn't even dignify with the label of "tourism" at all but would rather have used an admittedly more pejorative label by subsuming Child Sex Tourism information under another article like Child Prostitution, Paedophilia, Child Predation whatever... Its been interesting and I hope you can see my point of view also and I think we have more than adequately argued over all of this. finis. I will ses about an article/contrubution/merger. Mattjs 01:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
- Heya Mattjs. Although wikipedia is vastly complex, in some ways, it is really easy. All you need to do is find reliable sources that say what you wish to include in the article, cite them, and viola.
- You writing your thoughts and feelings on this page don't help. For example, the sources we have in the article do use the term, "Child Sex Tourism." Regardless of whether you like it or not, it is a term that is used.
- So, if you want to "clear the name of sex tourism" you need to find reputable sources who have done so. And then include them. Devalover 05:24, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Child Sex Tourism Laws
- In fact as an afterthought splitting the article which is currently messy would present the opportunity the expound on Child Sex Tourism Laws as I mentioned above and would be a very positive thing. I actually responded in the Prostitution in Thailand article in detail to a question in the talk back regarding age of consent and researched the UK and AU extra-terrorial laws in the space of an hour. None of this information is contained in Wikipedia and someone looking into Child Sex Tourism and arriving here will be very interested. It interested me enough to clarify the details as I am a dual UK/EEC and AU citzen so both sets of "Child Sex Tourism" or age of consent laws are simultaneously applicable! So Child Sex Tourism Laws would be a good start I have the AU and UK info and mentioned here are only Singapore and Canada but with nil details whatsoever. Mattjs 01:40, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
- Sounds ambitious. My suggestion would be to start the general "child" sex tourism one, then break off the legal section when it becomes sufficiently long to merit its own article. A long list of country-by-country sex tourism laws would definitely be better in a separate article, but right now there's nothing and no point in creating stub articles.
- My understanding is (was?) that you're developing a new article (or articles), not simply "splitting" this one, which risks creating a POV fork. This article doesn't need to be a whitewash of sex tourism, child or otherwise. Presumably the new article(s) would supplement the existing one. / edgarde 05:18, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
- Law Enforcement of Child Sex Tourism may be better as another poster suggested. I prefer it as a more well defined topic that this current sloppy article and about as long as the current article though likely to get longer and I certainly expect it to receive more links to it from other articles like Age of consent, law etc etc. i will get around to it - I have downloaded the two off-line Wikipedia Editors I have found: the standalone one and the Eclipse plugin. It might well lead to an evetual split down the track but that is not my major nor entire motivation! ;-) 220.240.58.190 15:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
- Offline editor? Whoever you are, please keep in mind other people are editing this article. / edgarde 15:33, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Intro
I am curious Edgarde about why the intro in this version was not sufficient for you? [4]
For me, an intro is about defining terms and setting the stage. I have shortened it some and will await your feedback. Devalover 05:29, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think intro needs to be that short, but since that's where your going, how about what I have now?[5]
- I think the child prostitution law enforcement difficulties were worth having in the opening, especially since the issue seems to come up in most general discussions of sex tourism, and that paragraph was pretty concise. However, since there's so much initiative to bury it I've moved all mention of child prostitution to Tourism involving sex with minors; not my preference but if other editors can't agree it fits in the intro, I'm tired of arguing it.
- The 2nd sentence in the version you link is so short it's weasely — people not worth identifing say there are problems not worth specifying. I've restored that and instead snipped the first repetitive U.N. mention, which was introduced by User:Addhoc to appease User:KyndFellow at some point. Assuming no one here is advocating for KyndFellow's novel definition (also discussed in the archives for this Talk page), and the in-line reference is considered sufficient, I'd say the first U.N. mention is more dispensible than the 2nd. / edgarde 06:57, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
- Wow, I appreciate your willingness to work with me, and I actually don't like your version! :) I don't like removing ALL refference to Child Sex Tourism in the intro, and for me the intro you created it TOO brief with too many citations- 5 citations for 2 sentences! I am going to revert back to my last version.
- The reason why I don't see the law enforement piece as "big" at least for an intro is that it is a sub-topic of a sub-topic of a sub-topic Topic: Sex Tourism. Sub-topic: Child Sex Tourism Sub-top of sub-topic: Law Enforcement of Child Sex Tourism. Sub topic of sub topic of sub-topic!: Challenges with Law Enforcement of Child Sex Tourism.
- So, I have reverted back to my version and included the LE sentence down lower. Hope you like it. Thanks for heads up on weasel words, I had never heard it invoked in this context- I'll sit with it. Devalover 07:49, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
International Law
"A tourist who has sex with a child prostitute possibly commits a crime against international law, in addition to the host country, and the country that the tourist is a citizen of. Several countries have recently enacted laws with extraterritorial reach, punishing citizens who engage in sex with minors in other countries."
What International Law?
There are national laws with extra-territorial applicability (on which subject - at least compared to anyone else here - I am an expert). Whilst there is an international court of criminal justice its ambit usually includes such matters as war crimes and not sex under the age of consent nor prostitution. And though there are international agreements and conventions like the CRC, GATT, WIPO agreements etc. these are covenants which are binding only upon "nation states" and _not_ "individuals".
Rephrase something like as follows: "A tourist who has sex with a child prostitute offends against the spirit of the international Convention on the Rights of the Child and the Optional protocol on the sale of children, child prostitution and child pornography, and, in addition to breaking the law in that host country, might well also be doing so in the country the tourist is a national of. A growing number of countries are enacting laws with extra-territorial reach in order to meet their obligations under the covenants above, and consequently punishing citizens who engage in sex with minors whilst overseaes."
ok edgarde? Mattjs 17:31, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Cleaning up bias and sloppy citations
If no one else is as active I am going to carry on cleaning up bias and sloppy citations. Broad sweeping generalizations like the following: "While most sex tourists only engage in this activity with other adults, some actively look for child prostitutes, while others are not very selective either way, regarding age."
That now reads: "While most sex tourists only engage in this activity with other adults, some actively look for child prostitutes, while others are not very selective either way regarding age, according to a study of the Dominican Republic." as it should be as the study ONLY refers to that country, as does, I believe, the UNICEF report also cited within it.
It has just dawned upon me the source: I suspect that one of our major contributors is probably American, Christian and Female, or a least I reckon I got two out of three right. Not of any signifigance in itself excepting that it would explain why the above poor citation wouldn't be considered biased by such a person or persons. And then we have happy go lucky "holiday fun in the sun" female editors in the "Female sex tourism" artcle obviously.
I have to find a citation and _ADD_ something about child sex under the Cambodia reference. It is well known that aging Thai men particularly including those of high office have a prediliction to picking up very young women in their limosines and taking them to "drive-in" "love-motels" (I know as I have been to one (with an "over-age")) it being a popular cultural notion or superstutition there that an old man sleeping with a young <~15 year old, especially virgin, will thereby renew his virility if not his aging vigour. That said, underage sex in Thailand in or outside of "sex tourism" is a very minor part of the overall sex trade there. I am well aware that the same cannot be said of Cambodia, and as I now know the Dominican Republic, and an entirely different scale of child sexual exploitation occurs there. I am glad I haven't visited either of them. About Thailand though I am an expert and Pattaya is _THE_ sex tourism destination after all so generalizations like the above therefore just do not cut the mustard i'm afraid. Mattjs 18:58, 9 January 2007 (UTC)