Enric Naval (talk | contribs) →Falses statements: please produce exact book and page where this claim is done |
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The current version has to be cleared all and start it as new. It is impossible to improve all this amount of lies and nonsenses. It is false that Desclot or Muntaner (Foix and Lauria) called "Bars of Aragon" to the personal signal of the kings; it is false the theory of the papals colours; the legend of Wifred was against normands and, of couse, there were pales in the seal of Ramon Berenguer IV count of Barcelona as accepted by '''all the members of the International Heraldry Academy'''...See more [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Coat_of_arms_of_Catalonia here] |
The current version has to be cleared all and start it as new. It is impossible to improve all this amount of lies and nonsenses. It is false that Desclot or Muntaner (Foix and Lauria) called "Bars of Aragon" to the personal signal of the kings; it is false the theory of the papals colours; the legend of Wifred was against normands and, of couse, there were pales in the seal of Ramon Berenguer IV count of Barcelona as accepted by '''all the members of the International Heraldry Academy'''...See more [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Coat_of_arms_of_Catalonia here] |
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The Aragonese only are editing with Aragonese nationalists sources. Outside Aragon nobody waste the time with such amount of nonsenses. --[[User:Sclua|Sclua]] ([[User talk:Sclua|talk]]) 13:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC) |
The Aragonese only are editing with Aragonese nationalists sources. Outside Aragon nobody waste the time with such amount of nonsenses. --[[User:Sclua|Sclua]] ([[User talk:Sclua|talk]]) 13:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC) |
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:I have warned Sclua for repeatedly ignoring sources and POV-pushing[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASclua&diff=210629273&oldid=209980815]. The only sources he apports are his personal interpretation of a flag image and a wikipedia article that he had just reverted to a POV version --[[User:Enric Naval|Enric Naval]] ([[User talk:Enric Naval|talk]]) 19:03, 6 May 2008 (UTC) |
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::Sclua, you will have to produce the exact page of Faustino Menéndez-Pidal's work that you are referring to, and then explain what the heck this has to do with removing the government of aragon source and it's caption [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Crown_of_Aragon&diff=prev&oldid=210315869 here] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Crown_of_Aragon&diff=210787368&oldid=210784003 here] which cites a work by aragonese historicians Fatás and Redondo. Just claiming that a certain historician claims something without citing where or when he does so is not enough. Also notice that there is a difference between saying that the seal had bars and saying that the coat of arms was a symbol of the counts. I haven't read "palos de oro y gules" myself, but I can see at [http://www.bibliotecamiralles.org/documentos/articulos7.pdf this source] that they are using it to source this sentence "''Las interpretaciones y versiones de la leyenda son muy variadas, aunque todas responderían a la finalidad de ofrecer un origen ilustre, mítico-heroico si se quiere, a las armas de una de las monarquías con más poder e influencia de todo el medioevo, '''aun a sabiendas que dichas armas tuvieron hasta finales de la Edad Media carácter de armas familiares de los descendientes del primer príncipe de Aragón y conde de Barcelona, y no armas territoriales'''''" which happens to be on agreement with what the source that you removed says (apologies for people who can't read spanish). |
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::I can also see a dossier by the [http://www.cepc.es/ Center of Politic and Institutional Estudies from Government of Spain] that says that the coat of arms is a symbol of the count-kings that were sovereigns of Barcelona[http://www.cepc.es/include_mav/getfile.asp?IdFileImage=567](page 4), which is also not in disagreement with the caption that was sourced by the government of aragon source, and those are the guys that edited Menendez-Pidal's "Historia de España" that won the 2000 National History Prize(footnote on page 1).Stating that an historician says that there were bars on that seal is ok, but using that info to make claims about what the bars represent is [[WP:OR|original research]]. You also making that mistake on the article you link to, putting together several primary sources to make [[WP:SYNTH|synthesis]] and extract conclusions from the primary sources. Sorry, but your evidence is not convincing at all, and your edits are always towards eliminating a certain type of sources and information, and are always giving more weight to the Catalonia and taking weight from Catalonia. Always. Your insistance that every aragonese theory is "another lie of the aragonese nationalists"[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ACoat_of_arms_of_Catalonia&diff=206470329&oldid=205168423] including its repetition at edit summaries is not helping at all --[[User:Enric Naval|Enric Naval]] ([[User talk:Enric Naval|talk]]) 13:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC) |
Revision as of 13:30, 7 May 2008
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From Spain the history of this flag is a lie. Don't belive it.
- If you want to say something precicise you words. -Lemmy- 13:23, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
The true origin of the flag is Aragonese, not Catalan.
- Hmm...Never heard of that.I only know the tale that King Charles dipped in fingers in blood and signed a shield.So there's in fact whether a catalan nor a aragonese origin. -Lemmy- 19:12, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Valencia's name as Autonomous Community is Valencian Community (Comunidad Valenciana), not Valencian Country. By the way, this flag origin is Aragonese, not Catalan. But, Catalonia and Aragon have been united since 1137, so the Senyera are in Catalonia for nine centuries, so it's normal that some people think this flag is originally Catalan.
Oldest Flag in the world?
Following a comment appeared in the article claiming this fact I thought an explanation had to be made.
- It is not the oldest flag in the world: Just think of, as an example at the flag of Asturias, this Cross was carried by Don Pelayo (later King Pelayo), in the decisive Battle of Covadonga against the Moors in 722. But then, think at all the counties, regions, territories that coexisted in those years in Europe, (Even coutries like France existed before the Senyera was invented). And before the christians, think of Al-Andalus, Rome (the SPQR) and the rest of the world. Even the Vatican one is proved to be older. China or Egypt or Mesopotamia already had flags when people in Europe were discovering bronze.
- It is not the oldest coat of arms in the world: Again, think of Rome's (SPQR), the bourgogne cross, the french fleur de lys or just the cross carried by Don Pelayo.
- It is not the oldest flag in continued use: Again, forgetting China's (which I do not know), The senyera can doubtly be consider the oldest in continued use because neither Aragon, Catalonia, Valencia, Roussillon, Balears have used it ever since, other being used, for small or large, amounts of time. It is because of that that this title should go (again, in western world) to the Dannebrog (Dannish flag), which fell (According to a 17th c. myth), from the sky among the Danish forces during the battle of Lyndanisse in Estonia on June 15, 1219. According to some, the Danish levy navy immediately adopted it as its symbol, making Dannebrog the oldest national flag in continued use. However, real proof of use dates back at best to Valdemar IV (king 1340-75). This way Denmark and Austria can both claim the oldest flag, that of Austria being known on seals from 1230. But again for Austria, a seal is not a flag. And also that the Senyera has no national status.
Regards, Maurice27 22:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Proportions of the Valencian autonomous community Flag
- After a quite extensive search throughtout the whole internet, I haven't been able to find any single source to state that this flag has 1:2 proportions. No laws, no estatutes, no decrees... nothing. I have to say, that I ALMOST couldn't find anything to state it is 2:3 either... Only the source I gave some weeks ago, and that "some users" didn't believe... BUT, then, I thought about where to adress to ask for a confirmed source. And what better choice than the Spanish Vexillological Society (the SEV, see [[1]]) which, BTW is a member of the Fédération internationale des associations vexillologiques. So, I believe this source to be the most trustworthy of all.
- This said, I went to SEV site, [[2]], and found a "banderas" (flags) link on the left. Then, I clicked on the "Comunidades Autónomas" link, see [[3]], and then on the "Comunidad Valenciana/Comunitat Valenciana" one see [[4]], to get here: [[5]], where it clearly states a proportions of 2:3.
- But, maybe this society simply had these same proportions for all spanish autonomous communities flags... WRONG! let's see some examples:
- CASTILLA Y LEÓN: proportions 76:99. See, [[6]]
- CASTILLA-LA MANCHA: proportions 1:2. See, [[7]]
- COMUNIDAD DE MADRID: proportions 7:11. See, [[8]]
- PAÍS VASCO/EUSKADI: proportions 14:25. See, [[9]]
- Being ALL OTHERS of proportions 2:3.
- I sincerely hope this FINALLY ends the fight about the proportions. I gave the most trustworthy source available, which NO ONE can doubt. Regards, --Maurice27 14:22, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Legality in Spain
I heard that the senyera was legally displayable in Spain since 1975 before the death of Franco. Can you confirm? --Error 01:32, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Fair use rationale for Image:Flag of Valencia Autonomo community.png
Image:Flag of Valencia Autonomo community.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 05:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Fair use rationale for Image:Flag of Valencia Autonomo community.png
Image:Flag of Valencia Autonomo community.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot 23:23, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
The origen
It is not true that the flag of Catalonia was pontificien, the only demonstration that is an umbrella for a pope in red, yellow and blue paint In the eleventh century
- Sorry, you are wrong. The two freschoes were painted last thirteenth century after the King Peter the catholic's gift.--Sclua (talk) 19:39, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
colours vatican flag
"Kingdom of Aragon used and adopted the colours of the Vatican" (in the eleventh century says the aragonesist theory). "According to the "Encyclopedia Britannica", the flag of the Holy See's Navy(!!) from XII century was red and yellow vertical" Could the author of this sentence show me where does Britannica say this?
"The Vatican City State has never had an army, navy or airforce" says this Wikipedia article [10]. Who is right?
And there's another conflict on wikipedia articles [11], [12]. So there are two incompatibilities articles on wikipedia with this sentence.
"In the whole middle age red was the colour of Catholic Church, and gold was used for the crossed papal keys. Napoleon mixed his army with papal, so pope Pius VII decided new colours should be found." Pius VII choose gold and silver, and those were accepted in 1825. The flag was used until 1870, when the state was integrated into Italy. When the City of Vatican was formed as separate state, it took the same flag in 1929. (Željko Heimer, 16 May 1996 [13])
Whitney Smith.Flags Through the Ages and Across the World. McGraw-Hill Book Co.: New York (United States). 1975 (1st ed.) ISBN 978-0-07-059093-7
--Sclua (talk) 12:52, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
- That particular wikipedia article you mention 1 is wrong! Just take a look at Battle of Lepanto (1571), The papal navy, 1500 or The list of Papal ships.
- "Papal ships will be referred as HHFS - His Holy Father's Ship - before ship's name.These abbreviations will distinguish same ship´s name from different nations and government warships from pivateers or privately-owned merchantmen.
- The Pontifical Navy (Marina Militare Pontificia) was formed by the John VIII (875-881) and ceased to exist when the main naval base Civitavecchia was incorporated into the Kingdom of Italy in 1870. Untill 1815 the Navy ships were united with the Merchant Navy under supervision of Prefetto di S. Angelo as commisario del mare. In 1798 twelve the most valuable ships were taken by Napoleon to meet their fate at Aboukir on August 1st, 1798. With the return of the Pope Pius VII to Rome on May 26th, 1814 the Navy was reorganized passing under control of the Camerlengo di Santa Romana Chiesa. In 1817 a Custom Service was formed. In 1828 the Presidenza delle Armi was constituted and the navy passed under its control." --Maurice27 (talk) 21:19, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
OK, there was a pontificial navy, but please tell how to find the article on the Britannica, would you please be so kind to paste part of the article about the colours of the navy in the eleventh or twelveth century or tell me the name of the article? thanks. --Sclua (talk) 19:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I've supressed a source clearly biased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.125.97.102 (talk) 23:55, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Flags of Sicily and the city of Naples
Today the island of Sicily and the city of Naples still have the colours gold and red in their flags and coat of arms and both were in the Crown of Aragon, should this be mentioned? Although its not strickly "bars"? - Gennarous (talk) 15:58, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Falses statements
This article is full of falses statements and lies. It needs a revision.--Sclua (talk) 11:52, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
- The article does need a revision, but please provide source on which statements are false and use fact tags on unsourced or dubious facts instead of deleting them to give other editors an oportunity to see the tag when reviewing the article and source them or change them. This article is from 2004, where online citations were not used, so it's severely under-sourced --Enric Naval (talk) 13:52, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
The current version has to be cleared all and start it as new. It is impossible to improve all this amount of lies and nonsenses. It is false that Desclot or Muntaner (Foix and Lauria) called "Bars of Aragon" to the personal signal of the kings; it is false the theory of the papals colours; the legend of Wifred was against normands and, of couse, there were pales in the seal of Ramon Berenguer IV count of Barcelona as accepted by all the members of the International Heraldry Academy...See more here The Aragonese only are editing with Aragonese nationalists sources. Outside Aragon nobody waste the time with such amount of nonsenses. --Sclua (talk) 13:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- I have warned Sclua for repeatedly ignoring sources and POV-pushing[14]. The only sources he apports are his personal interpretation of a flag image and a wikipedia article that he had just reverted to a POV version --Enric Naval (talk) 19:03, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
- Sclua, you will have to produce the exact page of Faustino Menéndez-Pidal's work that you are referring to, and then explain what the heck this has to do with removing the government of aragon source and it's caption here and here which cites a work by aragonese historicians Fatás and Redondo. Just claiming that a certain historician claims something without citing where or when he does so is not enough. Also notice that there is a difference between saying that the seal had bars and saying that the coat of arms was a symbol of the counts. I haven't read "palos de oro y gules" myself, but I can see at this source that they are using it to source this sentence "Las interpretaciones y versiones de la leyenda son muy variadas, aunque todas responderían a la finalidad de ofrecer un origen ilustre, mítico-heroico si se quiere, a las armas de una de las monarquías con más poder e influencia de todo el medioevo, aun a sabiendas que dichas armas tuvieron hasta finales de la Edad Media carácter de armas familiares de los descendientes del primer príncipe de Aragón y conde de Barcelona, y no armas territoriales" which happens to be on agreement with what the source that you removed says (apologies for people who can't read spanish).
- I can also see a dossier by the Center of Politic and Institutional Estudies from Government of Spain that says that the coat of arms is a symbol of the count-kings that were sovereigns of Barcelona[15](page 4), which is also not in disagreement with the caption that was sourced by the government of aragon source, and those are the guys that edited Menendez-Pidal's "Historia de España" that won the 2000 National History Prize(footnote on page 1).Stating that an historician says that there were bars on that seal is ok, but using that info to make claims about what the bars represent is original research. You also making that mistake on the article you link to, putting together several primary sources to make synthesis and extract conclusions from the primary sources. Sorry, but your evidence is not convincing at all, and your edits are always towards eliminating a certain type of sources and information, and are always giving more weight to the Catalonia and taking weight from Catalonia. Always. Your insistance that every aragonese theory is "another lie of the aragonese nationalists"[16] including its repetition at edit summaries is not helping at all --Enric Naval (talk) 13:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC)