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:::@Qwyrxian, you as an admin should have known better: '''assume good faith'''. I was trying to make use of the clean-up tag "to foster improvement of the encyclopedia by alerting editors to changes that need to be made" (as documented in Wiki Policy). [[User:STSC|STSC]] ([[User talk:STSC|talk]]) 06:24, 4 July 2013 (UTC)<br /> |
:::@Qwyrxian, you as an admin should have known better: '''assume good faith'''. I was trying to make use of the clean-up tag "to foster improvement of the encyclopedia by alerting editors to changes that need to be made" (as documented in Wiki Policy). [[User:STSC|STSC]] ([[User talk:STSC|talk]]) 06:24, 4 July 2013 (UTC)<br /> |
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:::@Phoenix7777, the tag can be applied to the article because the outcome of the RfC is only valid for 1 year. [[User:STSC|STSC]] ([[User talk:STSC|talk]]) 06:24, 4 July 2013 (UTC) |
:::@Phoenix7777, the tag can be applied to the article because the outcome of the RfC is only valid for 1 year. [[User:STSC|STSC]] ([[User talk:STSC|talk]]) 06:24, 4 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::::The RfC has no expiry date. The only recent change is that [[User:NuclearWarfare]]'s ban on new move discussions expired in Janary, 2013. Does anyone want to volunteer to rerun all the web searches cited in [[Talk:Senkaku Islands/Archive 9#Request for comment: Article naming]] to see if the balance of the names has shifted? [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 06:45, 4 July 2013 (UTC) |
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Name change suggestion
I suggest renaming the article "Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands" to make it more neutral.--Maps9000 (talk) 08:22, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
I support this suggestion to help the article's NPOV. I think a few of the admins lean towards the Japanese position, however, and locked the page the last time someone tried to rename it. Yi Ding (talk) 03:21, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
- First, note that "neutrality" isn't quite the right way of putting it; the question is, "What name to people use when writing about the subject in English". Essentially, that is, by definition, the English name.
- It is the English name because America is biased. I agree to this of changing the name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ZBZ.LVLV (talk • contribs) 09:43, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- So, if you wish to pursue a renaming discussion, which is fine as long as it's done civilly, you'll need to provide evidence that when the islands are discussed in English, they are generally referred to by both names or by some sort of hybrid name. Be sure to focus especially on high quality reference works and academic sources, though journalism sources are also fine. But on the latter, you'll need to do some serious work in showing the trend; Google search numbers won't tell you anything. I recommend looking through the archives of this page to see some of the work we've done previously, along with the several RfC's we've held that each time found "Senkaku Islands" to be the standard English name. It is possible, however, that over the last several years (since the topic has become more commonly discussed in English language media) the standard usage has changed; if it has, we should change with it. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:17, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Agree. I hear more and more journalists referring to the islands as "Diaoyu" these days. --Menkus (talk) 22:25, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
- And I will also concur that, especially in the last year, I've heard and read many journalists say something like "these uninhabited islands, called Senkaku in Japan and Diaoyu in China". But we need to be sure, and we also need to account for what high quality reference/academic work says. That is, we need to follow a clear linguistic change, not jump at what may be a passing trend. I have no interest in doing the research myself, but welcome a thoughtful discussion if others are willing to do so. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:10, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
I think it is no need to change the name of this article as long as written to be "Administered by Japan" in the infobox. Aren't those all right if exist redirects of Diaoyu, Tiaoyu, Diaoyutai, Tiaoyutai (and Senkaku), are those?--ジャコウネズミ (talk) 14:23, 13 June 2013 (UTC)--(minor)--ジャコウネズミ (talk) 14:24, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
- We don't name articles based on who administers them, we name them based on common usage in the English language. Otherwise, Liancourt Rocks would be located at Dokdo, because I don't see Japan Self-Defence Forces stationed on that island. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 12:07, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
- Seconded, on the technical aspect. It is unfortunate that this particular usage is so closely tied to Chinese issues of perceived sovereignty. I would support Wikipedia allowing "slashed" name articles in cases as contentious as this. Although, there could be a slippery slope there. TheSoundAndTheFury (talk) 12:59, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
- It does seem that in this case at least, most serious news reports make it a point to use both names. I don't have any strong preference between that or the way it stands now. a13ean (talk) 14:37, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
- I understand your opinions. Considering broadcasts about this area in English, the suggestion "Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands" is not so bad. But I'm concerned about whether it is rational, sensible and appropriate selection. We cannot be free from recent Senkaku-Diaoyu dispute as far as we think about this article's name depending on recent broadcasts. What they said and written on these islands by governments and Foreign Affairs of U.S., U.K., Canada, Australia, New-Zealand, ... and UN?--ジャコウネズミ (talk) 21:50, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
- In reference to an above point, I found out fairly recently that, in fact, Wikipedia does allow slashed names. I don't recall how I found this, but we have an article Imia/Kardak. Note that I'm not suggesting that be used here, and I don't know the history behind the naming, but I just wanted to verify in good faith that it is technically possible. Of course, we can't use the name that I have seen recently, the islands called Senkaku in Japan and Diaoyu in China. One thing to keep in mind is that if we somehow come to a conclusion that a slashed name is better, we would still need to determine the order. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:10, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- I am just hoping that it is a name that is the item this title are dealing mainly the history and geography of the islands is known. I think is not good in the title, such as first and foremost think of the territorial dispute. That, "Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands" in that or is suitable for the title of this article? (cf. another article, Senkaku_Islands_dispute).--ジャコウネズミ (talk) 06:24, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- ジャコウネズミ, and other editors who came this talk page recently, I suggest reading past talks in the archives. WP:NCPLACE#Alternative names says "Wikipedia articles must have a single title". The reason we use the current title, "Senkaku Islands", is it is the name used by United States Board on Geographic Names and by nautical charts of Australia, UK, and US. Media reports are not helpful because they use the two names as basic information regarding the dispute. Oda Mari (talk) 07:03, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for clarifying this, Oda Mari. I guess that settles it for now, then. I suppose this conversation would not have even come up if it weren't for recent territorial disputes. TheSoundAndTheFury (talk) 18:10, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- ジャコウネズミ, and other editors who came this talk page recently, I suggest reading past talks in the archives. WP:NCPLACE#Alternative names says "Wikipedia articles must have a single title". The reason we use the current title, "Senkaku Islands", is it is the name used by United States Board on Geographic Names and by nautical charts of Australia, UK, and US. Media reports are not helpful because they use the two names as basic information regarding the dispute. Oda Mari (talk) 07:03, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- I am just hoping that it is a name that is the item this title are dealing mainly the history and geography of the islands is known. I think is not good in the title, such as first and foremost think of the territorial dispute. That, "Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands" in that or is suitable for the title of this article? (cf. another article, Senkaku_Islands_dispute).--ジャコウネズミ (talk) 06:24, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- In reference to an above point, I found out fairly recently that, in fact, Wikipedia does allow slashed names. I don't recall how I found this, but we have an article Imia/Kardak. Note that I'm not suggesting that be used here, and I don't know the history behind the naming, but I just wanted to verify in good faith that it is technically possible. Of course, we can't use the name that I have seen recently, the islands called Senkaku in Japan and Diaoyu in China. One thing to keep in mind is that if we somehow come to a conclusion that a slashed name is better, we would still need to determine the order. Qwyrxian (talk) 05:10, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- I understand your opinions. Considering broadcasts about this area in English, the suggestion "Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands" is not so bad. But I'm concerned about whether it is rational, sensible and appropriate selection. We cannot be free from recent Senkaku-Diaoyu dispute as far as we think about this article's name depending on recent broadcasts. What they said and written on these islands by governments and Foreign Affairs of U.S., U.K., Canada, Australia, New-Zealand, ... and UN?--ジャコウネズミ (talk) 21:50, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
- It does seem that in this case at least, most serious news reports make it a point to use both names. I don't have any strong preference between that or the way it stands now. a13ean (talk) 14:37, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
- Seconded, on the technical aspect. It is unfortunate that this particular usage is so closely tied to Chinese issues of perceived sovereignty. I would support Wikipedia allowing "slashed" name articles in cases as contentious as this. Although, there could be a slippery slope there. TheSoundAndTheFury (talk) 12:59, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
The last "RfC" (post-Arbitration) [1] was done in the situation and atmosphere neither fair nor justicial to solve the naming issue as I pointed here [2][3]. It actually stifled voices from other side (opposing using "Senkaku"), so that none parties from the side opposing then Qwyrxian's side took part in that "RfC". Although I strongly oppose this "RfC", I did not touch or I did not think to be worth touching the two main pages regarding the Islands and the Dispute since then. Now I unexpectedly saw some positive changes from Qwyrxian's attitude toward this naming issue after many new comers raised questions to challenge the current name. I'd like to give full AGF to Qwyrxian. The last "RfC" (post-Arbitration) has been expired on January 1, 2013. Now it may be the time to open an RfC starting from a root question to solve this years-long naming issues. This RfC was unreasonablely prohibited to open or killed on November 24, 2011[4][5]. We need to get consensus that "Senkaku" is a Japanese name or a English name for these Islands first. Then we can make effort to see which way we can go to satisfy wp's NPOV, NOR, and other related naming policies. Now I re-post my suggestted RS as follows, and the draft anyone can revises is here User:Lvhis/xI RfC. --Lvhis (talk)
Is the name "Senkaku Islands" the "Japanese name" or "English name"?
(rfc template was here) This name is currently used for the Wikipedia article about a group of islands in East Asia, whose ownership is disputed. The name/title "Senkaku Islands" currently used for this article and its related articles has also been disputed for quite a long time. The main Romanized Chinese name for the islands is Diaoyu or Diaoyutai. The main Romanized Japanese name for the islands is Senkaku. There is another name, Pinnacle Islands, from English language, though far less frequently used than above mentioned Chinese and Japanese names. Is the name "Senkaku Islands" the Japanese name, or the English name? This is a basic or essential question or dispute for the naming dispute on this article. The question is, per Wikipedia's guidelines and policies (relevant ones listed below), which definition on this name is correct. Previous discussions, which have included discussions on relative article's talk pages, formal mediation, and an arbitration proceedings, have failed to reach consensus to settle the question. The relevant policies are listed below; in addition, involved parties will present their arguments for the definition of this name.
Policies and guidelines
- WP:VERIFY
- WP:ORIGINAL
- Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) (in particular, the sections Widely accepted name and Multiple local names)
Arguments from involved editors
Arguments for that "Senkaku Islands" is the Japanese name
1. Reliable sources have clearly stated/asserted that "Senkaku Islands" is the Japanese name. The following is just listing part of these reliable sources. A number of them were written by Japanese authors. I avoided using sources from Chinese authors.
- A UN General Assembly document [6] page 85, International Organizations and the Law of the Sea: Documentary Yearbook 1996 By Netherlands Institute for the Law of the Sea.
- Ogura, Junko (10-14-2010). "Japanese party urges Google to drop Chinese name for disputed islands". CNN World. CNN (US).
- Hara, Kimie (原貴美恵) (2007). Cold War frontiers in the Asia-Pacific: divided territories in the San Francisco system. New York, USA: Routledge, c/o Taylor & Francis. p. 51. ISBN 9780415412087.
- Suganuma, Unryu (菅沼雲龍) (2001). Sovereign Rights and Territorial Space in Sino-Japanese Relations: Irredentism and the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands. Hawaii, USA: University of Hawaii Press. pp. 89–96. particularly p96 ISBN 978-0824821593.
- Kiyoshi Inoue (井上清). Senkaku Letto /Diaoyu Islands The Historical Treatise. (English synopsis [7])
- Daniel J. Dzurek, "The Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands Dispute" at the International Boundary Research Unit web site, University of Durham, UK, October 1996 [8]
- Jeff Hays. "DISPUTE OVER THE SENKAKU ISLANDS (JAPANESE NAME)---DIAOYU ISLANDS (CHINESE NAME)" Facts and Details
- Koji Taira. The China-Japan Clash Over the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands [9] This is an article that originally appeared in "The Ryukyuanist", spring 2004.
- Joyman Lee. Senkaku/Diaoyu: Islands of Conflict Published in History Today Volume: 61 Issue: 5 2011
- Jesper Schlæger. Senkakuphonia: The East China Sea Dispute page 4 of 31
- Peter J Brown. China ire at sea chase signals wider reach Asia Times Sep 16, 2010
2. The Naming history on this group islands tells that "Senkaku Islands" is the Japanese name. Names for this group islands are from three languages, that I have pointed out during the Mediation [10]. Per the order of their generated time, they are Chinese name, English name, and Japanese name.
1) Chinese name: the romanized Chinese name is "Diaoyu Dao Qundao" or "Diaoyutai Lieyu". For English use, they are adapted as "Diaoyu Islands" or "Diaoyutai Islands". Their original form is 钓鱼岛群岛 or 釣魚台列嶼. The Chiese name used for naming these islands was generated as early as 1403 [1].
2) English name: In 1843, the British naval battleship "Samarang" surveyed areas around this group islands and gave a name "Pinnacle islands" for them according to how the shape of one of the islands looked like.[2][3][4]
3) Japanese name: Before 1886, at least some Japanese documents used Chinese name for these islands. Since 1886, the Japanese Imperial Naval Records used "Pinnacle Islands" with Japanese Katakana form (Transliteration). It was until 1900, a Japanese teacher Tsune Kuroiwa (黑岩恆) translated the "Pinnacle Islands" into Japanese "Senkaku Island". Its original form is 尖閣諸島. While the "Senkaku Island" was not yet officially used until 1950s by Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs. [5][2]
- ^ Shun Feng Xiang Song (順風相送)/Voyage with the Tail Wind, A Chinese navigation records, is now located in Bodleian Library, Oxford, UK 35 H.
- ^ a b Martin Lohmeyer (2008). The Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands Dispute
- ^ Han-yi Shaw (1999). The Diaoyutai/Senkaku Islands Dispute:Its history and an analysis of the ownership claims of the P.R.C., R.O.C. and Japan
- ^ Belcher, Edward and Arthur Adams (1848). Narrative of the Voyage of H.M.S. Samarang, During the Years 1843–46: Employed Surveying the Islands of the Eastern Archipelago. London : Reeve, Benham, and Reeve. OCLC 192154
- ^ Suganuma, Unryu (菅沼雲龍) (2001). Sovereign Rights and Territorial Space in Sino-Japanese Relations: Irredentism and the Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands. Hawaii, USA: University of Hawaii Press. pp. 89–96. particularly p96 ISBN 978-0824821593.
3. No reliable sources tell that "Senkaku Islands" is the English name. On the other words, that "Senkaku Islands" is the English name is an unsupportable viewpoint.
Conclusion: "Senkaku Islands" is the Japanese name as defined by reliable sources, as required by important policies WP:VERIFY and WP:ORIGINAL. Both Chinese name and Japanese name are local names for this geographic entity per WP:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Multiple local names. Indeed there is a real or pure English name for this group of islands: "Pinnacle Islands".
Arguments for that "Senkaku Islands" is the English name
- Put argument here.
Other comments from involved editors
==== Comments from uninvolved editors ====
And an old discussion with a talbe[11] may also be worth being reviwed as follows:
Is the current title/name "Senkaku Islands" POV or NPOV?
The original section has been archived POV_or_NPOV.3F, which was intially posted starting on 17:55, 19 October 2011 (UTC). The left column accusing "POV" was mainly completed by users Lvhis and Stuartyeates, and the right column defending "NPOV" was mainly completed by users Qwyrxian and Oda_Mari. User Kusunose helped in formatting the table.
Please: editors believing the current name as NPOV can edit NPOV side ONLY, and as the same, editors believing the current name as POV can edit POV side ONLY. By comparing the reasons from both sides, we may be able to gradually reach some consensus or compromise.
POV (It needs to be changed) | NPOV (no need for change) | ||
---|---|---|---|
Reasons |
|
|
Pushing to use single "Senkaku" is same as pushing to use single "Diaoyu". Good quality reliable sources such as Times, CNN, Fox news and more almost always use "called Senkaku in Japan (or Japanese) and Diaoyu in China (or Chinese)". They also use "Diaoyu/Senkaku" or "Senkaku/Diaoyu". Many editors (now including Qwyrxian) mentioned to use this slash way. One very important point I want to emphasis here is this "D/S" or "S/D" is not a original research, it is from very reliable resources! As for which one goes to first for the slash form, I believe it is easy to reach consensus. I myself won't care which one is put first.
My last words are: the development of the real world outside Wikipedia can be and has been totally independent on what name/title the related wp pages take. If Wikipedia inside pages/articles cannot reflect the real world outside Wikipedia or cannot catch up the changes and development of the outside real world, the one who looks like embarrassed or even stupid is the related wp pages, but not the outside real world. If one tries to use wp pages to change outside real world, one will be finally disappointed. But the changes of outside real world can eventually change the wp pages, pages of called online free encyclopedia. --Lvhis (talk) 05:52, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Can we use "Pinnacle Islands (Diaoyu/Senkaku)" to avoid POV? --202.108.128.130 (talk) 11:35, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- In response to Lvhis' proposed RfC above: just like last time, if you attempt to launch the RfC under this formatting and title, I will request it be stopped, and, at this point, I'll have to request you be topic banned. It was explained clearly last time why the way you've phrased that RfC 1) doesn't help us answer the question of what to title the article (because POV isn't actually the governing rule for article titles), 2) is itself biased, and 3)contains far more information than is allowed for an RfC to start (from WP:RFC: "Include a brief, neutral statement of the issue in the talk page section, immediately below the RfC template."). You've complained about the last RfC that was run, but you're trying to run one that is extremely unbalanced and against the rules. If you want the name to change (and, as you've correctly intuited above, I'm far more open to a name change than I was before, though I'm not entirely sold, and insist that we must account for what high quality references use, not just what newspapers use), you're going to have to do it fairly and neutrally. Qwyrxian (talk) 22:13, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
The "English name" argument simply cannot stand because "Senkaku" is not and has not been more common than "Diaoyu". I'll be tagging the article. STSC (talk) 15:32, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
- STSC, rather than adding a tag, which really does nothing to advance the discussion, could you consider instead starting a discussion (or even RfC) that seeks clarification of the proper name? As I said/implied above, I am willing to look anew at the evidence. I do recognize that news reports have much more commonly used both names in the last year or so, but to really make a decision, we need to weigh that against what other sources have done. However, before starting said discussion, you may want to wait...Lvhis and Oda Mari are both likely about to be topic banned for 3 months, and, no disrespect intended, but Lvhis is the definitely the best advocate that the dual name has ever had. You may be more successful if you wait for 3 months for Lvhis to rejoin us. But, of course, your path is up to you. If you add the NPOV title tag, I won't revert you personally. Qwyrxian (talk) 15:43, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
Confusing wording
In the "Early history" section, the last paragraph states "the Chinese name for the island group (Diaoyu) and the Japanese name for the main island (Uotsuri) both mean "fishing"." Later in the same section, there is a sentence that reads "The name "Pinnacle Islands" is used by some as an English-language equivalent to "Senkaku" or "Diaoyu".
The latter sentence implies that "Senkaku" and "Diaoyu" mean (roughly) "Pinnacle" or "Pinnacle islands". As this contradicts the first sentence I quote I presume that this is not the intended meaning? I would assume that the meaning "fishing" is more likely than "pinnacle", but the latter has a source (which I can't read atm) and the former doesn't. Thryduulf (talk) 14:13, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
- Let me clarify the names. The name of the group of islands is Pinnacle in en, Senkaku (Pinnacle) in ja, and Diaoyu (fishing) in zh. Each islands has its own name in ja and zh, but not in en and the main island's name is Uotsuri (fishing) in ja and Diaoyu (fishing) in zh. Is my clarification understandable? If it is, please rewrite the section. Oda Mari (talk) 17:02, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
The whole list of islands
- zh:釣魚臺列嶼#组成 lists a full list of islands names as used in PRC, ROC and Japan, and other informations.
- I propose to either remove Bei Yu/Oki-no-Kita-iwa, Nan Yu/Oki-no-Minami-iwa, and Fei Yu/Tobise islets from #Geography or provide a full list of islands, because these three islets are too small to be distinguished from other small islets. --202.108.128.130 (talk) 11:44, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
- Nobody disagree with the removal of Bei Yu/Oki-no-Kita-iwa, Nan Yu/Oki-no-Minami-iwa, and Fei Yu/Tobise islets? --202.108.128.130 (talk) 12:35, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
- So you're saying the three islands should be removed because they're not listed in the article above that you linked to, or because they're too small? ~Adjwilley (talk) 23:34, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
- Should be removed because they're too small - as there're dozens of islands in Diaoyutai, there's no reason to list 8 of them but forget others. So I suggest to list only 5 most notable islands and mention other dozens of islands and rocks in content. --124.16.148.71 (talk) 07:17, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
- Am I correct that the 8 islands listed in the table correspond to the map directly above it? If we remove the last three islands from the table I think we would also need to remove that map (or find a different one) as the 6, 7, and 8 pointed out on that map would make no sense then. --ElHef (Meep?) 18:53, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
- Should be removed because they're too small - as there're dozens of islands in Diaoyutai, there's no reason to list 8 of them but forget others. So I suggest to list only 5 most notable islands and mention other dozens of islands and rocks in content. --124.16.148.71 (talk) 07:17, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
- So you're saying the three islands should be removed because they're not listed in the article above that you linked to, or because they're too small? ~Adjwilley (talk) 23:34, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
Tagging POV-title
The Japanese-originated name of the title has raised NPOV concerns. I therefore propose to tag the article until the dispute on the title is resolved. STSC (talk) 15:48, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
- I don't imagine this will ever be entirely settled, and the lead already mentions the name is generally disputed. Adding a tag is really not going to do anything productive in this case. a13ean (talk) 23:30, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
- As you know, STSC, in order for a the tag to remain, you need to be willing to engage in constructive dialogue to advance towards a resolution--something that shows you (or another editor) are actively trying to change the previously established consensus. If you want to engage in such a process, then fine; we'll probably need an RfC. Just so you know, though, both Oda Mari and Lvhis are topic banned for about 3 more months, and would not be able to participate in such a discussion. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:05, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- This template was removed by Talk:Senkaku Islands/Archive 9#Request for comment: Article naming closed on February 2012. The closer User:NuclearWarfare reverted the addition of the template by Lvhis with an edit summary No, this is what I meant.[12] Unless a new RfC decides otherwise, the previous RfC remains effective. Therefore the template should not be included. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 00:17, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- As you know, STSC, in order for a the tag to remain, you need to be willing to engage in constructive dialogue to advance towards a resolution--something that shows you (or another editor) are actively trying to change the previously established consensus. If you want to engage in such a process, then fine; we'll probably need an RfC. Just so you know, though, both Oda Mari and Lvhis are topic banned for about 3 more months, and would not be able to participate in such a discussion. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:05, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
I agree with A13ean. The content will always be disputed, and I don't see the point in having the tag up again. It's not a form of protest, it's to encourage discussion. Phoenix also makes a good point. I have no objection to discussion, of course, but the tag isn't required to do that in this particular case. John Smith's (talk) 07:24, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- That's why the clean-up tag was applied; it's there to alert and invite other editors to join in the process. STSC (talk) 07:42, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- THere was no improper action by the uninvolved admin. Tags do not stay up just because one editor wants them up, except in cases where the tag is indisputable (like tagging something as needing a citation). NPOV tags specifically state that they are not just supposed to be up because one person or one side doesn't like the current consensus. Unless you can show that there is at least some evidence that consensus is changing, or that you're going to try to make it change, no, it can't be tagged. The admin enforced the taglessness under the very wide latitude given to admins on pages under discretionary sanctions. Right now, there's nothing to "alert editors" to, except the fact that you, personally, don't like the title, even though the current consensus is that it meets all of our policies. As I've said above, I'm happy to engage in such a discussion, and am even willing to believe that there has been sufficient shift in the last 2 years to warrant a name change, but I'm not going to be the one to go to the effort to start such an exasperating process. Qwyrxian (talk) 12:40, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- @Qwyrxian, you as an admin should have known better: assume good faith. I was trying to make use of the clean-up tag "to foster improvement of the encyclopedia by alerting editors to changes that need to be made" (as documented in Wiki Policy). STSC (talk) 06:24, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- @Phoenix7777, the tag can be applied to the article because the outcome of the RfC is only valid for 1 year. STSC (talk) 06:24, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- The RfC has no expiry date. The only recent change is that User:NuclearWarfare's ban on new move discussions expired in Janary, 2013. Does anyone want to volunteer to rerun all the web searches cited in Talk:Senkaku Islands/Archive 9#Request for comment: Article naming to see if the balance of the names has shifted? EdJohnston (talk) 06:45, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- @Qwyrxian, you as an admin should have known better: assume good faith. I was trying to make use of the clean-up tag "to foster improvement of the encyclopedia by alerting editors to changes that need to be made" (as documented in Wiki Policy). STSC (talk) 06:24, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- THere was no improper action by the uninvolved admin. Tags do not stay up just because one editor wants them up, except in cases where the tag is indisputable (like tagging something as needing a citation). NPOV tags specifically state that they are not just supposed to be up because one person or one side doesn't like the current consensus. Unless you can show that there is at least some evidence that consensus is changing, or that you're going to try to make it change, no, it can't be tagged. The admin enforced the taglessness under the very wide latitude given to admins on pages under discretionary sanctions. Right now, there's nothing to "alert editors" to, except the fact that you, personally, don't like the title, even though the current consensus is that it meets all of our policies. As I've said above, I'm happy to engage in such a discussion, and am even willing to believe that there has been sufficient shift in the last 2 years to warrant a name change, but I'm not going to be the one to go to the effort to start such an exasperating process. Qwyrxian (talk) 12:40, 3 July 2013 (UTC)