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I think the policy statement from the American Association for Cancer Research and the American Society of Clinical Oncology is reliable for these claims. [[User:QuackGuru|<font color="Red">QuackGuru</font>]] ([[User talk:QuackGuru|<span style="color:red">talk</span>]]) 19:13, 21 January 2015 (UTC) |
I think the policy statement from the American Association for Cancer Research and the American Society of Clinical Oncology is reliable for these claims. [[User:QuackGuru|<font color="Red">QuackGuru</font>]] ([[User talk:QuackGuru|<span style="color:red">talk</span>]]) 19:13, 21 January 2015 (UTC) |
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:The subject of the article is not "Nicotine". Unless you have a claim that nicotine, at the levels found in e-cigarettes, is "possibly a "lethal" toxin it is inappropriate to use in this article. There are lots of substances that can be lethal when taken in large quantities, even water. Using claims about nicotine at strengths above that found in e-cig's leads to original research by synthesis. when followed by claims about e-cigarettes. [[User:AlbinoFerret|<span style="color:white; background-color:#534545; font-weight: bold; font-size: 93%;">AlbinoFerret</span>]] 20:25, 21 January 2015 (UTC) |
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Use of Cheng Opinions
See also What is Cheng reviewing.
The Cheng "review" and I use that term loosely because it really didnt review anything is not usable to post the opinions of Cheng as fact. It is not even possible to use "A review said" in the claims deleted because Cheng didnt review any studies on manufacturing of any component of Electronic cigarettes or nicotine. The statements are pure opinion. As such they need to be notable as well. Otherwise the use of the claims is undue weight. WP:UNDUE. The journal article is only cited by 4 other journal articles, none of them reviews, and has very low weight. AlbinoFerret 01:14, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
- I added in-text attrition rather than in Wikipedia's voice. QuackGuru (talk) 00:02, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- Since they are not a product of a review process, since there are no studies to review, they are purely the opinions of Cheng. As such it is inappropriate and inaccurate to say "a review said ....." There is also the weight issue. The opinions have no weight, they are only sited 4 times, none of them reviews. It is undue weight WP:UNDUE to even use them. In fact , the whole section which is only sourced to this review should go. AlbinoFerret 00:48, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- Both User:Bluerasberry and User:Cloudjpk agree with keeping the review.[1] The sourced text have weight. These are facts when there is no serious dispute. QuackGuru (talk) 07:23, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- There are no facts, its opinions that have been removed.Bluerasberry made those comments before it was pointed out the so called review said no studies had been done to form its opinions. What it did review, is still there so this so called review has been "kept". All Cloudjpk did was verify that the statements for another issue were there, he didnt comment here on the lack of studies as the basis for those pure opinions and the improper attributing of them. Neither of them commented on the weight issue for the whole section. This so called review, which is about 10 months old had only been cited in 4 other articles, none of them reviews. It has very low weight, and probably should not have its own section and a position of prominence. AlbinoFerret 14:15, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- Since Cheng didnt review any studies on these subjects, the opinions based on things that no studies exist for (as the so called review clearly points out), it is not a secondary WP:MEDRS on those subjects. AlbinoFerret 18:14, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- Both User:Bluerasberry and User:Cloudjpk agree with keeping the review.[1] The sourced text have weight. These are facts when there is no serious dispute. QuackGuru (talk) 07:23, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- Since they are not a product of a review process, since there are no studies to review, they are purely the opinions of Cheng. As such it is inappropriate and inaccurate to say "a review said ....." There is also the weight issue. The opinions have no weight, they are only sited 4 times, none of them reviews. It is undue weight WP:UNDUE to even use them. In fact , the whole section which is only sourced to this review should go. AlbinoFerret 00:48, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- Appropriately sourced and weighted to a review. Objections that there are no studies about the subject are spurious because the lack of studies supports the conclusions that we are not certain about these subject in discussion. Yobol (talk) 21:21, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
- A review has to "review" something. There is nothing for it to review. That logic is twisted to include this. It isnt a secondary source. Thats because there is no primary source to look at in a secondary sense. AlbinoFerret 12:36, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
I have taken the question on Cheng as a secondary source to WP:RS. AlbinoFerret 13:14, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- It states "Literature searches were conducted through December 2013. Studies were included in this review if they related to the environmental impacts of e-cigarettes."[2] so yes is a review. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:10, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- Doc James If you read the review, the only sources it reviewed were newspaper articles related to battery disposal and advertising. I left those claims in. What I removed were pure opinions where Cheng clearly states there are no reviews to study. He has sources that discuss how things are made. He has no primary sources discussing the environmental impact of anything, except perhaps the newspaper stories questioning the disposal. In fact Cheng states this in "Research gaps related to the environmental impacts of electronic cigarettes" Cheng makes two statements:
" No studies formally evaluated the environmental impacts of the manufacturing process or disposal of components, including batteries. "
- From later in the journal article:
"No studies specifically evaluated the environmental impacts of e-cigarette manufacturing; issues related to use of resources, assembly, nicotine source, tobacco cultivation and global production "
- Without any sources on environmental impact of these topics, how is it a secondary source? AlbinoFerret 14:36, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- It systematically look for evidence and did not find any so says "A 2014 review stated that it is unclear" There is nothing wrong with this. This is the power of a review. One can say no evidence exists for something as one has systematically looked. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:42, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- It cant be a secondary source without primary sources. WP:MEDRS states "A secondary source in medicine summarizes one or more primary or secondary sources, usually to provide an overview of the current understanding of a medical topic, to make recommendations, or to combine the results of several studies." If there are no studies, or sources, it cant be a secondary in those areas. AlbinoFerret 14:48, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- It systematically look for evidence and did not find any so says "A 2014 review stated that it is unclear" There is nothing wrong with this. This is the power of a review. One can say no evidence exists for something as one has systematically looked. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:42, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- It states "Literature searches were conducted through December 2013. Studies were included in this review if they related to the environmental impacts of e-cigarettes."[2] so yes is a review. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:10, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
- Just leaving a note here that the RSN post has closed. There's some good conversation that should hopefully clear up some questions above. Kingofaces43 (talk) 05:42, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
Replacement of claim based on policy statement
Policy Statement from the American Association for Cancer Research and the American Society of Clinical Oncology is a policy statement with clear conflicts of interest. Its use for medical claims is suspect and I removed it, Yobol replaced it. I have added to it the conflict of interest. AlbinoFerret 04:21, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- Accusations of COI is ridiculous and removed. Yobol (talk) 04:22, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- The funding, under a COI header, is in the paper. AlbinoFerret 05:43, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- This is not funding for this paper. This is just funding that these authors have received at some point in time. You have obviously read Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine#Safety_of_electronic_cigarettes_needs_eyes Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:06, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- The funding, under a COI header, is in the paper. AlbinoFerret 05:43, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
In-text attribution
- Postgraduate Medical Journal
KimDabelsteinPetersen agreed the source is reliable to use if the text is attributed.[3] In-text attribution is a good compromise. QuackGuru (talk) 21:55, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- No, i most certainly did not. The full discussion was archived (too early apparently) here Talk:Safety_of_electronic_cigarettes/Archive_1#McKee_is_an_editorial. You cannot use Editorial/Opinion material in this way. Not by WP:MEDRS nor by the consensus reached in that discussion. --Kim D. Petersen 22:43, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- The claims are mundane and most of the text is discussing what proponents said. It is a high quality WP:SECONDARY source. QuackGuru (talk) 22:53, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- It does not matter if the claims are mundane or not. You are A) Ignoring consensus B) ignoring WP:RS C) ignoring WP:MEDRS and finally D) It is a primary source not a secondary one (opinions always are!) --Kim D. Petersen 23:08, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- And it would be rather nice if you stopped claiming that i revert "blindly"[4], when it is quite obvious both why i revert, and that there is an already existing consensus, as well as policy, against using the McKee editorial. --Kim D. Petersen 23:12, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
- You claim "It does not matter if the claims are mundane or not." But it does matter. This source is being used for claims such as the claims made by advocates. Claims by advocates are not subject to MEDRS. This source is not WP:Primary. Specifically, the claim is the "author's interpretation, analysis, or evaluation of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from primary sources" - the peer-reviewed journal has referenced 37 sources. I would very much like to see your argument that it is WP:Primary. QuackGuru (talk) 03:47, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
- Please stop flogging the dead horse and try instead to see if you can find consensus for the usage of this editorial. It doesn't matter if it is mundane or not - if consensus and policy is against using such a source, then you can't use that source. Lets say i'm wrong about the primary issue - would that change whether you could use the source or not? No, it wouldn't: You still need consensus and you still per WP:RS and WP:MEDRS can't use an opinion source for factual material no matter if the material is mundane or not. --Kim D. Petersen 17:33, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
- I agree, its unusable. Editorials are primary sources. They state the opinion of the writer, regardless of what they look at. AlbinoFerret 18:23, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
- I previously showed it is not a primary source and for non-MEDRS claims it does not need to be MEDRS.[5] Consensus is based on the arguments. So far no evidence has shown it is a primary. In fact, the evidence has shown it is a legitimate WP:SECONDARY source. For example, when there are 37 references the source cited it shows it is a secondary source. QuackGuru (talk) 20:21, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
- You have not shown anything that convinced people. And why on earth do you think that if a source uses references then it is a primary source? I'm quite frankly shocked. --Kim D. Petersen 23:06, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
- of course the above should have been "isn't a primary source", which should have been obvious from context. But apparently there are some who want to misunderstand - so i'll correct it by this post, instead of by editing, since it has already been commented upon --Kim D. Petersen 01:36, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think it is a primary source. See WP:Primary: Primary sources are original materials that are close to an event, and are often accounts written by people who are directly involved. A secondary source provides an author's own thinking based on primary sources, generally at least one step removed from an event. It contains an author's interpretation, analysis, or evaluation of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from primary sources. You have not provided any argument it is a primary while I have shown it is a secondary source. QuackGuru (talk) 23:34, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
- Does the word "Editorial" ring a bell? WP:MEDRS#Biomedical_journals second sentence might give you a clue. You keep trying to wiggle around the fact that it is an opinion article, which isn't acceptable material. Sorry. --Kim D. Petersen 01:33, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
- I tried to explain it to you before. For non-medical claims MEDRS is not applicable. QuackGuru (talk) 19:56, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
- And i've repeated again and again: WP:RS. You can't use opinion articles for facts outside of medicine either! Opinions are opinions - they are not fact. --Kim D. Petersen 00:52, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
- If you can't use an alternative source that is actually reliable for the "mundane [claims]" that you want to include ... then that really should tell you something. Could we now stop flogging the horse thats gone to meet its maker? --Kim D. Petersen 00:56, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
- According to WP:SECONDARY it is perfectly acceptable to use secondary sources. This is not a questionable source. QuackGuru (talk) 20:57, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
- WP:IDHT much? --Kim D. Petersen 23:19, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
- Quack, No matter how you phrase it, no matter what angle you want to look at, its still an Editorial and is a questionable source. It is not suitable for this article. AlbinoFerret 23:45, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
- According to WP:SECONDARY it is perfectly acceptable to use secondary sources. This is not a questionable source. QuackGuru (talk) 20:57, 17 January 2015 (UTC)
- I tried to explain it to you before. For non-medical claims MEDRS is not applicable. QuackGuru (talk) 19:56, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
- Does the word "Editorial" ring a bell? WP:MEDRS#Biomedical_journals second sentence might give you a clue. You keep trying to wiggle around the fact that it is an opinion article, which isn't acceptable material. Sorry. --Kim D. Petersen 01:33, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
- You have not shown anything that convinced people. And why on earth do you think that if a source uses references then it is a primary source? I'm quite frankly shocked. --Kim D. Petersen 23:06, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
- I previously showed it is not a primary source and for non-MEDRS claims it does not need to be MEDRS.[5] Consensus is based on the arguments. So far no evidence has shown it is a primary. In fact, the evidence has shown it is a legitimate WP:SECONDARY source. For example, when there are 37 references the source cited it shows it is a secondary source. QuackGuru (talk) 20:21, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
- I agree, its unusable. Editorials are primary sources. They state the opinion of the writer, regardless of what they look at. AlbinoFerret 18:23, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
- Please stop flogging the dead horse and try instead to see if you can find consensus for the usage of this editorial. It doesn't matter if it is mundane or not - if consensus and policy is against using such a source, then you can't use that source. Lets say i'm wrong about the primary issue - would that change whether you could use the source or not? No, it wouldn't: You still need consensus and you still per WP:RS and WP:MEDRS can't use an opinion source for factual material no matter if the material is mundane or not. --Kim D. Petersen 17:33, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
- You claim "It does not matter if the claims are mundane or not." But it does matter. This source is being used for claims such as the claims made by advocates. Claims by advocates are not subject to MEDRS. This source is not WP:Primary. Specifically, the claim is the "author's interpretation, analysis, or evaluation of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from primary sources" - the peer-reviewed journal has referenced 37 sources. I would very much like to see your argument that it is WP:Primary. QuackGuru (talk) 03:47, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
- The claims are mundane and most of the text is discussing what proponents said. It is a high quality WP:SECONDARY source. QuackGuru (talk) 22:53, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
Yes we should stick with review articles not editorials. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:36, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
Quack has brought this to WP:RSN Here is a link. He brought this there without mentioning this section, or informing the involved editors. AlbinoFerret 05:39, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
In-text attribution again
- A policy statement from the American Association for Cancer Research and the American Society of Clinical Oncology
- Brandon, T. H.; Goniewicz, M. L.; Hanna, N. H.; Hatsukami, D. K.; Herbst, R. S.; Hobin, J. A.; Ostroff, J. S.; Shields, P. G.; Toll, B. A.; Tyne, C. A.; Viswanath, K.; Warren, G. W. (2015). "Electronic Nicotine Delivery Systems: A Policy Statement from the American Association for Cancer Research and the American Society of Clinical Oncology". Clinical Cancer Research. doi:10.1158/1078-0432.CCR-14-2544. ISSN 1078-0432.
Nicotine is regarded as a possibly lethal toxin.[6] wad removed.
A policy statement by the American Association for Cancer Research and the American Society of Clinical Oncology has reported that "Third-hand exposure occurs when nicotine and other chemicals from second-hand aerosol deposit on surfaces, exposing people through touch, ingestion,and inhalation".[7] was removed.
I think the policy statement from the American Association for Cancer Research and the American Society of Clinical Oncology is reliable for these claims. QuackGuru (talk) 19:13, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
- The subject of the article is not "Nicotine". Unless you have a claim that nicotine, at the levels found in e-cigarettes, is "possibly a "lethal" toxin it is inappropriate to use in this article. There are lots of substances that can be lethal when taken in large quantities, even water. Using claims about nicotine at strengths above that found in e-cig's leads to original research by synthesis. when followed by claims about e-cigarettes. AlbinoFerret 20:25, 21 January 2015 (UTC)