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::::I removed the part about citizenship and nationality from the infobox per [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|WP:Neutral point of view]]. It can be interpreted in many different conflicting ways which may not be to the benefit of the article or the reader. The article itself explains it all if reference is needed. [[User:Merangs|Merangs]] ([[User talk:Merangs|talk]]) 20:43, 26 May 2022 (UTC) |
::::I removed the part about citizenship and nationality from the infobox per [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|WP:Neutral point of view]]. It can be interpreted in many different conflicting ways which may not be to the benefit of the article or the reader. The article itself explains it all if reference is needed. [[User:Merangs|Merangs]] ([[User talk:Merangs|talk]]) 20:43, 26 May 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::That's absolutely fair, thank you for explaining it here too. --[[User:Samotny Wędrowiec|Samotny Wędrowiec]] ([[User talk:Samotny Wędrowiec|talk]]) 20:44, 26 May 2022 (UTC) |
:::::That's absolutely fair, thank you for explaining it here too. --[[User:Samotny Wędrowiec|Samotny Wędrowiec]] ([[User talk:Samotny Wędrowiec|talk]]) 20:44, 26 May 2022 (UTC) |
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== Calling Rosa Luxemburg polish is a massive misnomer == |
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Most non-english language articles list her as german revolutionary of polish-jewish background, which is a far more accurate description. Associating her great achivements with the nation that regularly pogromed her people and eventually realised the Holocaust is not only factually but also morally wrong. |
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As other has pointed out she had very little ties to Poland, considering her not having polish citizenship (while having russian-german one), devoting most of her scholarship to Russia and Germany and being radically opposed to any type of polish national movement (national sentiments were common among pilsudsky-type polish "socialsts" that she also disassociated hersef from). [[User:SoHoBro|SoHoBro]] ([[User talk:SoHoBro|talk]]) 02:05, 30 January 2023 (UTC) |
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Proposal to unmerge luxemburg and luxemburgism
A friend of mine proposed changes to the former Luxemburgism article earlier this year with the idea in mind that no one practices the tendency. While this is acknowledged to be partially correct, further scholarly review has produced copious evidence for its historical existence in German monographs, articles, etc. (One is directly related to the notion of Luxemburgism in the context of the DDR, where it was used to smear political opponents (much like Trotskyism - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trotskyism): "Rosa Luxemburgs Kritik an Lenin blieb zu ihren Lebzeiten unbekannt. Sie wurde erst 1922 von Paul Levi unter dem Titel Zur russischen Revolution veröffentlicht. Anlass dazu war für ihn zum einen der Beschluss der KPD zur „Offensivstrategie“ 1920, den die von Sinowjew geführte Kommunistische Internationale (Komintern) unterstützte, zum anderen der Versuch, die KPD im Kontext des Märzaufstands 1921 zur Abkehr von ihrer Orientierung, durch einen Putsch zur Macht gelangen zu können, zu bewegen und ihre Positionierung gegen die SPD-Linke in Frage zu stellen. Daraufhin schloss die KPD Levi aus. Seine Veröffentlichung trug dazu bei, dass Josef Stalin, die KPdSU, die Kommunistische Partei Deutschlands (KPD)[10] und später die Sozialistische Einheitspartei Deutschlands (SED) [11] Rosa Luxemburgs Positionen später insgesamt als Luxemburgismus abwehrten und verfemten. Von Gegnern des Stalinismus wurden ihre kritischen Passagen dagegen später oft als Inbegriff des Demokratischen Sozialismus zitiert."
The current merged section is called "Thought" on the page for Rosa Luxemburg. The original "Luxemburgism" page that existed needs some key edits, which I am prepared to engage in/with. See also: Von Stefan Steinberg, "Vorgeführt und lächerlich gemacht" Wie die PDS auf die Errichtung einer Statue von Rosa Luxemburg reagiert, [www.wsws.org, 26. Januar 1999, (Online, pdf http://www.wsws.org/de/1999/jan1999/rosa-j26.shtml)
Hoarmurath (talk) 05:08, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
Why is the article in this category? Luxemburg herself was not a communist book (though I notice that she wrote several), and this is not a topic category. Geolodus (talk) 07:25, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
On hating Prussian men
She despised Prussian men and resented what she saw as the grip of urban capitalism on social democracy.
Needs clarity. Red Society 01 (talk) 20:52, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Execution vs murder
A number of sources (The Local [1], Deutsche Welle [2] The New European [3] and the Gietinger book) refer to it as a murder. I have replaced execution with murder unless it refers to Pabst's orders. Best, Caius G. (talk) 23:19, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
- More sources: Encyclopedia Britannica [4] The Times of Israel [5] and The Conversation (website) [6]. The demonstration has also been described as honouring the "murdered" Luxemburg and Liebknecht [7] (in German). Best, Caius G. (talk) 17:03, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- Execution ? ? - Capital punishment, also known as the death penalty, is the state-sanctioned killing of a person as punishment for a crime. The sentence ordering that someone is punished with the death penalty is called a death sentence, and the act of carrying out such a sentence is known as an execution. - Rosa Luxemburg was murdered, not executed. --213.172.123.242 (talk) 08:34, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
Do it's an assassination then Mhatopzz (talk) 03:24, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
Why is there no "Execution" section?
There's usually a section detailing how a historical figure died, particularly in cases like Rosa where they were assasinated, executed or otherwise killed. BetweenCupsOfTea (talk) 09:54, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
I came here specifically to mention that the circumstances surrounding her death are of historical importance and the details are scattered throughout the article but with no clear description of what is known by history. She was murdered, excecuted, by whom, for what specifically, etc. This is a glaring omission.Calydon (talk) 06:49, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
Education
the gymnasium story is absolutely incorrect. She attended a Polish school, founded by patriotic Polish countess Zyberk-Plater. It was a very prestigious establishment. One of the most expensive schools in the area of Poland occupied by Russian Empire. So it means that her family had means to pay for a very exclusive education. Therefore it signifies her very privileged social position. So there is nothing exceptional in her being Jewish and accepted to the said school, apart from the fact that her father was very wealthy. But this would not sit very well with mythos of Jewish discrimination,. But still I insist that someone would edit the entry accordingly shemyaza
Nationality
It currently solely lists her nationality as "Polish" in the lede; I propose we change to "Polish-German" or similar, as she had German citizenship and lived much of her life in Germany. I also think we should merge nationality and citizenship in the info box, as the two concepts are usually the same, and list both "Polish" and "German".
I think the current version is appropriate and highly explanatory, especially by the first sentence in the lead section. Oliszydlowski (talk) 03:35, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
I disagree; I feel that, as she was primarily known for her actions in Germany, she should be listed as German-Polish; furthermore, nationality and citizenship should be combined, as they synonymous in this case. I did, however, add a note to the lead explaining that she was born in poland and later became a German citizen. --LordNimon (talk) 18:54, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
- Well Rosa wasnt polish by citizenship or ethnicity, nor was polish her first language. It could be argued that she should rather be described as Russian-German. Gawelsky (talk) 16:03, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Polish was her first language... --Samotny Wędrowiec (talk) 13:20, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- I doubt you could find a source stating that. Her actual native language was yiddish. Gawelsky (talk) 01:02, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- "In 1908 and 1909, Luxemburg published a series of articles titled Kwestia narodowościowa i autonomia (The National Question and Autonomy) in the journal of SDKPiL, Przegląd Socjaldemokratyczny—her most important work on nations and nationalism. She analyzed the consequences of capitalism, especially among nations that lacked independence and had to defend their rights to cultural autonomy in the context of multiethnic states. As far as the Jewish question was concerned, she argued that there was only one way leading to emancipation: political integration of Jews with societies among whom they lived and their participation in the general struggle for equal rights. Luxemburg considered Yiddish to be merely a jargon, distorted German, not capable of becoming the basis for a separate Jewish culture. She did, however, fight against antisemitism in her political writing, particularly when it intensified in Congress Poland following the 1905 Revolution." - quoted from: [8].
- I doubt you could find a source stating that. Her actual native language was yiddish. Gawelsky (talk) 01:02, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- Polish was her first language... --Samotny Wędrowiec (talk) 13:20, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- "So far, no Luxemburg researcher has discovered a manuscript in Yiddish by Rosa Luxemburg. Rosa Luxemburg understood Yiddish (she was brought up in the Jewish faith), but regarded it as a form of slang and used it rather seldom, and then mostly as an insult or in self-irony." - quoted from: [9].
- All it took was one quick Google search. As much as I personally find Yiddish fascinating and disagree with what Luksemburg had to say about it, I do not try to fabricate her views to suit my own agenda. You have yet to provide a single source for your controversial opinions. Your baseless assumptions and attempts to troll other users are pathetic and offensive. --Samotny Wędrowiec (talk) 01:17, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
She was executed for attempted overthrow of a lawful government
Wasn't murder, you are twisting words, pathetic. 220.76.183.4 (talk) 08:37, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
Can't find quote
The section on the attempted German Revolution has a quote of a speech Luxemburg gave:
- Today we can seriously set about destroying capitalism once and for all. Nay, more; not merely are we today in a position to perform this task, nor merely is its performance a duty toward the proletariat, but our solution offers the only means of saving human society from destruction.
This quote has a reference before it attributed to "Nettl, J. P. Rosa Luxemburg. Vol. 1. p. 131. Waters, Mary-Alice Waters (ed.). Rosa Luxemburg Speaks. p. 7.", but I can't find the text in either book. --Ashawley (talk) 17:11, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
"Polish Marxist"
The fact that this does not follow how reliable sources describe her is that Google Scholar search results in the majority of results using "Polish Marxist" to describe something other than Luxemburg herself. Wikipedia follows WP:RS and therefore this is not a suitable description. The areas she is active in is already described in the next sentence by the political parties she belonged to, so I see this as both redundant and oversimplifying the issue of her nationality. (t · c) buidhe 18:17, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- @Buidhe: - Perhaps let's avoid the question of nationality and set focus on citizenship or her contributions to socialist movements in Germany (primarily) and Poland (also very significant). I believe it is fair. I have also changed the order in the first sentence description to suit this. Does it sound appropriate? Merangs (talk) 20:15, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
Plenty of research has been done about this already - Luksemburg retained her Polish identity and Polish remained her first language, as evidenced by her numerous private letters written in Polish (particularly those to her longtime partner) and her texts on the matters of Germanisation and Russification of Poles under colonial rule. There are many sources that provide proof of this, including plenty of those that are used throughout the article (particularly in the Poland section). Just because someone is forced to flee their country of origin due to political persecution does not mean they cease being part of that culture, in the same way that receiving citizenship in a foreign country through marriage does not mean that one ceases to be a person from their original place of birth and where they spent their formative years. The lead should say that she is a "Polish Marxist", because that is exactly who she was; even during her time in Germany, despite her excellent knowledge of the German language and commitment to internationalism, various people within the SPD continued to see her as an outsider as tends to be the case for migrants. The later sentence, still in the first paragraph, that she was "Born and raised in an assimilated Jewish family in Poland, she became a German citizen in 1897" should be enough for everyone. I understand why Polish nationalists are trying to bury Luksemburg's Polish origin and identity, as to them she is a "traitor" and all that, but I really do not understand what others have to gain from trying to erase her cultural background. --Samotny Wędrowiec (talk) 21:23, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- She was Askhenazi Jewish by ethnicity and culture, Russian and German by nationality and she was a strong opponent of polish statehood. I don't understand i what way it is accurate to describe her as polish.
- PS Poland has never been under colonial rule.
- PPS i doubt many polish nationalists even heard of her considering her obscurity in Poland Gawelsky (talk) 16:18, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- She was Ashkenazi Jewish by ethnicity and origin, but that's about it. Have you even read her comments about the Yiddish language? She considered it nothing less than some primitive dialect and a mixture of already existing languages (although I respect her greatly, I very much disagree with her on that). Luksemburg was Polish by nationality, later German by citizenship. She was an opponent of Polish bourgeois statehood in the same way that Ludwik Waryński and Władysław Kowalski were against it and in the same sense that I am. None of that stops us from being Polish. Just because you do not support a government or nation-state doesn't mean you cannot identify with the culture of the people ruled by said state - especially if it is the language you were raised to speak and the culture with which you feel closest to. I'm not even gonna bother answering your ridiculous claim that "Poland has never been under colonial rule". It helps to pick up a history book every once in a while. --Samotny Wędrowiec (talk) 13:33, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- well borders in Europe changed many times in history but as far as i know they werent colonial in their character. Would you say that Poland is currently colonizing Silesia and Pomerania (areas historically German) or that France is colonizing Alsace–Lorraine? PetPrm (talk) 19:32, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- I'm gonna assume this comment was made in good faith, so I'll respond in the same way: although indeed not all border changes and conquests in Eastern Europe were of a colonial nature, many actually were. If we study the German and Russian policies of cultural imperialism over Poles (primarily through restrictions on the use of Polish and limits on Polish education as well as oppression of the religious life of Poles), then we can come to that conclusion quite easily. And the later Nazi German racial policies against most Slavs, particularly Poles and Russians, leave no doubt.
- Also, Silesia and Pomerania are historically German just as much as they are Slavic. In fact, long before German settlement in areas of present-day Poland, much of eastern Germany used to be the territory of Slavonic tribes. These lands were home to many peoples over centuries, including Celtic tribes even before the Slavs and Germanic peoples were there. However, that's no longer relevant to this topic. --Samotny Wędrowiec (talk) 18:35, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- well borders in Europe changed many times in history but as far as i know they werent colonial in their character. Would you say that Poland is currently colonizing Silesia and Pomerania (areas historically German) or that France is colonizing Alsace–Lorraine? PetPrm (talk) 19:32, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- She was Ashkenazi Jewish by ethnicity and origin, but that's about it. Have you even read her comments about the Yiddish language? She considered it nothing less than some primitive dialect and a mixture of already existing languages (although I respect her greatly, I very much disagree with her on that). Luksemburg was Polish by nationality, later German by citizenship. She was an opponent of Polish bourgeois statehood in the same way that Ludwik Waryński and Władysław Kowalski were against it and in the same sense that I am. None of that stops us from being Polish. Just because you do not support a government or nation-state doesn't mean you cannot identify with the culture of the people ruled by said state - especially if it is the language you were raised to speak and the culture with which you feel closest to. I'm not even gonna bother answering your ridiculous claim that "Poland has never been under colonial rule". It helps to pick up a history book every once in a while. --Samotny Wędrowiec (talk) 13:33, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
It's also worth pointing out that Luksemburg was 26 years old when she gained German citizenship. --Samotny Wędrowiec (talk) 18:28, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
- ^^"PS Poland has never been under colonial rule." - Gawelsky that is categorically untrue and you know it. Stop stirring the pot and making incredibly inflammatory statements.--2A00:23C4:3E08:4001:402F:47C2:49F:3D03 (talk) 13:36, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- as far as i know no article on colonization on Wikipedia mentioned Poland as an area of colonial conquest. Quite the contrary, there are plenty of articles describing Polish colonial projects in South America and Africa. PetPrm (talk) 19:28, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, but there are also articles like Polish Haitians about how Poles joined the Haitians in the fight against French colonialism when they realised the situation of Haiti was so similar to that of Poland back home (and again, though in a slightly different context, with the American war of independence). Various countries throughout history have been both the perpetrators and subjects of colonialism, e.g. Poland colonised Ukraine, yet it has also been colonised by Germany and Russia. --Samotny Wędrowiec (talk) 18:35, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- as far as i know no article on colonization on Wikipedia mentioned Poland as an area of colonial conquest. Quite the contrary, there are plenty of articles describing Polish colonial projects in South America and Africa. PetPrm (talk) 19:28, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- ^^"PS Poland has never been under colonial rule." - Gawelsky that is categorically untrue and you know it. Stop stirring the pot and making incredibly inflammatory statements.--2A00:23C4:3E08:4001:402F:47C2:49F:3D03 (talk) 13:36, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
- Also worth pointing out that she never had a polish citizenship. By citizenship she was Russian and later Russian-German. Gawelsky (talk) 16:09, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- In that sense no Poles at the time had Polish citizenship - does that mean they were not Polish, regardless of their language and cultural identity, and we should think of them all as Russians? You have no argument. --Samotny Wędrowiec (talk) 13:33, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- It appears @Gawelsky: has not read Luxemburg's works and memoirs, and disregarded the sourced content in the biography section. User's action seems POV and politically motivated. Please do not impose edits without an RfC vote. Also, I kindly remind the user that "Polish" it capitalised. Looks [somewhat] like a vandalism-only account. Merangs (talk) 20:58, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed completely, this person seems to have a complete disregard for historical sources and lack of understanding regarding the topics that are being discussed by this article. We can be guided by our POV and interests in the choice of pages that we edit, in fact it's best if we are because then we are committed to better quality contributions, but we must NEVER allow our personal views to affect the content of our editing. --Samotny Wędrowiec (talk) 13:33, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- I removed the part about citizenship and nationality from the infobox per WP:Neutral point of view. It can be interpreted in many different conflicting ways which may not be to the benefit of the article or the reader. The article itself explains it all if reference is needed. Merangs (talk) 20:43, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- That's absolutely fair, thank you for explaining it here too. --Samotny Wędrowiec (talk) 20:44, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- I removed the part about citizenship and nationality from the infobox per WP:Neutral point of view. It can be interpreted in many different conflicting ways which may not be to the benefit of the article or the reader. The article itself explains it all if reference is needed. Merangs (talk) 20:43, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed completely, this person seems to have a complete disregard for historical sources and lack of understanding regarding the topics that are being discussed by this article. We can be guided by our POV and interests in the choice of pages that we edit, in fact it's best if we are because then we are committed to better quality contributions, but we must NEVER allow our personal views to affect the content of our editing. --Samotny Wędrowiec (talk) 13:33, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
Calling Rosa Luxemburg polish is a massive misnomer
Most non-english language articles list her as german revolutionary of polish-jewish background, which is a far more accurate description. Associating her great achivements with the nation that regularly pogromed her people and eventually realised the Holocaust is not only factually but also morally wrong. As other has pointed out she had very little ties to Poland, considering her not having polish citizenship (while having russian-german one), devoting most of her scholarship to Russia and Germany and being radically opposed to any type of polish national movement (national sentiments were common among pilsudsky-type polish "socialsts" that she also disassociated hersef from). SoHoBro (talk) 02:05, 30 January 2023 (UTC)