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In order to address this question, on June 1st xeno asked the editors to clarify their positions. At the present time, more than a week later, only 9 of the 40 who in various ways oppsed hiding or suppressing the image have clarified that they insist that the image be in the lead and no place else. This effectively means that they are a minority, since 14 have exressed prefering some sort of suppression and 6 have supported a compromise.[[User:Faustian|Faustian]] ([[User talk:Faustian|talk]]) 14:16, 9 June 2009 (UTC) |
In order to address this question, on June 1st xeno asked the editors to clarify their positions. At the present time, more than a week later, only 9 of the 40 who in various ways oppsed hiding or suppressing the image have clarified that they insist that the image be in the lead and no place else. This effectively means that they are a minority, since 14 have exressed prefering some sort of suppression and 6 have supported a compromise.[[User:Faustian|Faustian]] ([[User talk:Faustian|talk]]) 14:16, 9 June 2009 (UTC) |
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:[[Silence procedure|Their silence is perhaps telling]] - but if you wish to give them an additional ping, please feel free. I've made some comments at [[Wikipedia talk:Consensus#RFC: Is Consensus a Compromise/Synthesis of Editors' Opinions or is it Discussion Followed by Majority Preference without Compromise?|the recently filed RFC]], I'm going to reproduce them here as I believe it is the last I have to say on the matter, and wish to hand this off to another uninvolved admin for transparency - |
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:I've listed [[Talk:Rorschach test/2009 consensus review#Editors who have argued for removal, or otherwise suppressing the image|14 editors who feel that the image should be suppressed]] however 5 of those have not edited in over a year <!-- 3- 2 EDITS, LAST 2006-09-08, 4- ~15 EDITS, LAST 2007-06-28, 5- 1 EDIT, 2006-11-07, 8- ONLY 2 EDIT EVER WRT DISPUTE, ON 2007-03-12 (PUBLIC LIBRARY TERMINAL), 9- SPA QUITE ACTIVE IN 2008-03 NO EDITS SINCE 2008-04-02 --> and have very short editing histories. You've then got [[Talk:Rorschach test/2009 consensus review#Editors compromising|6 editors who are acceding to compromise for the sake of compromise]], half of those haven't edited in at least a year. |
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:Meanwhile, of the [[Talk:Rorschach test/2009 consensus review#Editors who disagreed with the suppression of the image|41 editors who disagree with suppression]] (not counting those who weighed in at the AN thread), only 8 <!-- 2, 3, 6, 8, 9, 12, 14, 15 --> meet the same metric of inactivity. |
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:So, using these numbers, you have 9+3 vs 33 plus those who weighed in at the AN thread which bring the numbers closer to 75% against suppression of the image. I feel also that wide community support is against suppression of images in general, i.e. I maintain that the community's default position is that the most relevant image available ought appear in the lead of the article. As such, my opinion is that the bar at which we should make an editorial decision counter to the default is higher than 1/4 or 1/3 in favour. |
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:At some point minority viewpoints will necessarily have to realize that they have not convinced the majority of Wikipedia editors of their point of view, especially when they are diametrically opposed. |
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:I feel that I've said all I have to say on the matter. At this point, I'm going to withdraw (however feel free to make any additional clarification requests as necessary). When the RFC has run its course, if an uninvolved admin doesn't show up to make a call, please seek one at [[WP:AN]] to determine if the decision reached in [[Talk:Rorschach test/2009 consensus review|my consensus review]] should be revisited based on what follows. –<font face="verdana" color="black">[[user:xeno|'''xeno''']]</font>[[user talk:xeno|<font color="black" face="verdana"><sup>talk</sup></font>]] 14:26, 9 June 2009 (UTC) |
Revision as of 14:38, 9 June 2009
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Location of the inkblot image
RFC: Top Image - Hermann Rorschach or first card of the Rorschach inkblot test?
section break
- Archived to Talk:Rorschach test/Archive 5#section break
Interpretation of discussion
Archive's missing
Could somone with more wikitech sophistication than I have please fix the links to the archives. Right now they don't work. Thanks. Ward3001 (talk) 15:13, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
- They appear to have been moved or deleted. An admin or someone with rollback should be able to retieve them. Garycompugeek (talk) 16:41, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
They're not deleted. They're at Talk:Rorschach inkblot test/Archive 1, Talk:Rorschach inkblot test/Archive 2, and Talk:Rorschach inkblot test/Archive 3. It appears they just need to be renamed. Ward3001 (talk) 17:01, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- Excellent. You've found them and I've repaired the links. Garycompugeek (talk) 18:25, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- First, I must apologize for dropping an additional 106 kb onto this page (not counting the 33kb generated thus far in #The discussion). Together that means the page is 437k. Would it be OK if we archived at least everything above this point? (There's nothing newer than 21 May 2009). –xenotalk 04:02, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- I've been bold and archived some threads, leaving the headings in place with a pointer to where they went, reducing the size of this page from 335k to 171k. Hope that's ok. This is to make it a bit easier on people who may come here to discuss after I notify them they've been mentioned in the review. If you need to continue one of the discussions that was archived, perhaps copy the comment to which you are replying back here, and continue from there. –xenotalk 13:09, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
What is Consensus?
We are proposing changes allegedly based on a shift in consensus, yet there has been no clear discussion on what consensus means and no detailed discussion of it when I mentioned it earlier. Since my earlier mention has been buried in a discussion, I'll repost it here in homes we can have a conversation limited to this topic:
Let's review what consensus really means: Wikipedia:Consensus. It is not about majority vote: "Editors can easily create the appearance of a changing consensus by "forum shopping": asking again and hoping that a different and more sympathetic group of people discusses the issue. This is a poor example of changing consensus, and is antithetical to the way that Wikipedia works. Wikipedia does not base its decisions on the number of people who show up and vote; we work on a system of good reasons." It is all about compromise: "Consensus develops from agreement of the parties involved. This can happen through discussion, editing, or more often, a combination of the two. Consensus can only work among reasonable editors who make a good faith effort to work together in a civil manner. Developing consensus requires special attention to neutrality – remaining neutral in our actions in an effort to reach a compromise that everyone can agree on." As has been noted and seen in the archives, there have been many approaches taken to the inkblot images. Some editors have felt that they shouldn't be here at all and that the articles should only include simulations (and such editors have created simulations), others (such as I) have wanted to have the image hidden, requiring a click to open and view it, thereby giving the reader the choice about whether or not to see it, while others have wanted the image on the top, unhidden. The present version was arrived at through compromise; it was a mutually derived version. Such a compromise was a good example of the collaborative nature of wikipedia editting. What has changed since then? The number of people espousing particular opinions about what to do with the image seems to be at a similar ratio; it seems that the various opinions of what is "ideal" are exactly the same as they were before. A majority wanted the image to be presented one way; a significant minority disagreed strongly. Working together, we made a compromise that was acceptable to all. But now, rather than compromise, it seems that someone has decided that the majority simply dictates what happens. That's the real change. And it is contrary to wikipedia's consensus policy. We are all editting in good faith here, we had a compromise version arrived at through mutual good-faith efforts by people with different opinions.Faustian (talk) 21:49, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
- If you have some kind of compromise to propose, go ahead. Because it seems to me that your position is that since you have already compromised, you are opposed to compromising any further, despite the clear feedback from the broader community. Myself, I have a hard time thinking of how to compromise between having an inkblot image at the top of the article and not having it there. You're right, this isn't a vote. But you two proclaim yourselves to be experts on this subject and yet have been unable to provide a convincing argument for your point of view. I don't mean that in an absolute sense, I mean it empirically: your arguments have not been convincing. In the end, when there's a decision to be made that is binary, the minority has the right to be listened to, but at some point will have to accept that they are in the minority and the community wants things another way. In other words, yes, majority does rule, in the end of it all, but no, that doesn't mean Wikipedia operates by voting. If this debate isn't over, please tell me where the debate is going to go that's new, because otherwise we just go around in circles and get hung up endlessly on this issue. Mangojuicetalk 06:17, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- What do you mean by "compromising further?" Does that mean that, according to you, the minority must "compromise further" every couple of months until, eventually, there is no compromise left at all but the article purely reflects what the majority wants? That process would seem to violate wikipedia policy with respect to compromise as outlined above. The only reason that the choice is presently binary is that we have compromised to the point where the final step now seems to be that either the majority gets its way 100% (no compromise) or the article stays the way it is, which is the compromise version. If you look at the article history, you will see that originally there was no image. Then there was a simulated (fake) image. Then there was a black and white version of the real image. Then the real image, but hidden (requiring a click to see it). Finally this version. Every time there was a compromise with the majority until we've gotten to the point where the only thing left to do is ignore the minority's opinion entirely. Wikipedia policy is clear: Wikipedia does not base its decisions on the number of people who show up and vote; we work on a system of good reasons." It is all about compromise: "Consensus develops from agreement of the parties involved. This can happen through discussion, editing, or more often, a combination of the two. Consensus can only work among reasonable editors who make a good faith effort to work together in a civil manner. Developing consensus requires special attention to neutrality – remaining neutral in our actions in an effort to reach a compromise that everyone can agree on." By gradually changing the starting point little by little were are reducing "consensus" to purely majority vote, i.e. clearly violating wikipedia policy.Faustian (talk) 11:26, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- To add a point: one other editor has decided that it's better not to have any image. Coming back to this heading, consensus - the minority have failed to convince the majority (and likewise the majority have failed to change the views of the minority). This is not in doubt. SO what do we do with this fact? Do we follow wikipedia consensus policy and stick with the compromise already in place, or do we ignore the policy and just go with majority vote.Faustian (talk) 13:06, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- I fail to see how Wikipedia policy dictates that the previous version was consensus should remain until the minority is convinced. I think we go with the majority version, which is not "a vote" nor is it "ignoring policy." I looked back through the archives: what was basically under discussion was whether or not to directly display the inkblot image. Is there really that big of a difference to you between having it at the top and having it at the bottom? If it's in the article, people will get exposed to it. Instead you've picked a bad style argument that doesn't convince anyone to suggest that the image should not be on top. If I'm understanding you, it's really the issue of exposing people to the image that you have a problem with, but that debate has been settled and you didn't prevail. This just feels like sour grapes, frankly. You should realize that this is still a compromise, after all, we are only showing one of the blots. Mangojuicetalk 15:23, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- Is it not better to ask about this on the consensus page? Jaimeastorga2000 (talk) 10:26, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Coming late to the discussion. I think it's fairly obvious that there should be an inkblot at the top of the page, as that is the most iconic image people have of the test. However, to address the concerns raised, can't it just be any old ink blot? I can make an inkblot, scan it, and upload it. Would that satisfy everyone? LK (talk) 14:28, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- I was just reading over the archives to understand this compromise Faustian refers to. Basically, my summary is that there has been a long-standing dispute over whether to include the inkblot images. Proposals to use a substitute image or an "outline" of one of the blots have consistently been rejected because such images are not relevant to the article to nearly the same degree (any more than, say, having a picture of some other car on the Honda Accord page, to repeat an argument from the archives). Sure, I think we can all see it would be better than nothing, but frankly, nothing is not on the table any more. Mangojuicetalk 15:23, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- The only reason it's not on the table anymore is that I and others agreed to compromise and accept placing it in the test materials section (which is the most appropriate section anyways). We can reargue this again and end up with the current version as a compromise, or we can just leave the current version as it is. What I object to is using every compromise as a new "starting point" which necessitates a new compromise that becomes closer to what the majority wants. Eventually, after a series of "new compromises" every few months this approach will take us to the point where the final result is 100% what the majority demands with no compromise to the minority at all. And clearly this final result violates wikipedia policy on consensus.Faustian (talk) 20:24, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- It's not on the table because it's incompatible with Wikipedia's core principles to not include the image. What actually happened during the discussion is barely relevant -- how the discussion played out here does not actually explain why the decision went that way. The more independent, established Wikipedia editors commented, the more clear it was that the community believes strongly in the principle of no censorship and views this as no exception to that principle. The fact that eventually, a user came up with a compromise because they had been worn down by unending debate and demands does not mean that everyone agreed on the outcome. Mangojuicetalk 05:00, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
- Well, Mango, I for one was certainly "worn down by unending debate", which, unsurprisingly, srill shows no sign of ending. That's why I went along with what I thought was a compromise, but now seems to be the new norm. I think LK's idea about using the most popular fake Google image may not be such a bad one. Although using a completely novel one seems much better. If you have a few basic materials (I seem to remember from my early school days), it takes about 30 seconds to make one, and then a few more minutes for the ink to dry. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:53, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Another compromise
- Archived to Talk:Rorschach test/Archive 5#Another compromise
Too much James M. Wood, M. Teresa Nezworski, Scott O. Lilienfeld et al?
I noticed a huge number of references to articles, critical of the Rorschach, written by those guys. Their opinion is a minority one within the field [1] and much of their claims have been debunked. Per WP:UNDUE shouldn't the extent of their use here be toned down?Faustian (talk) 04:29, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
- That makes sense to me. Critics should only recognized here to the extend that the public at large has recognized them. Chillum 13:57, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
- It's well known but a minority view within the field. His criticisms certainly should be included in the article, but they seem to be much too prominant the way they are now. Much of his work was debunked in the scientific literature. For example, the very highly regarded forensic psychologist J. Reid Meloy, probably one of the top experts in the study of stalkers and psychopaths, wrote a brief critique (Journal of Personality Assessment, volume 83, pp.344-346), of just one part of Wood's book "What's Wrong with the Rorschach" where Wood attacked the claim that the rf response was linked to psychopathy. Wood ( on page 251 of his book) wrote "ten replication studies examined the relationship between rf responses and psychopathy. Nine of the ten found no significant relationship." (in psychological research, statistical significance means it is statistically unlikely that the difference was due to chance or random error. Typically the threshold for significance is .05 or 5% - meaning there is only a 5% chance that the difference found in a study was random and not caused by the variables being studied).
- Woods initially impressive claims fell apart under scrutiny. Eight of the ten studies tauted by Wood as contradicting claims about the Rorschach's effectiveness in differentiating psychopaths from nonpsychopaths were doctoral dissertations that had never been peer reviewed and had never been published in scientific journals. Meloy wasn't familiar with all of those eight dissertations, but he was on the committee of one of the ones cited by Wood et al as showing no significasnt relationship between rf responses and psychopathy. The particular dissertation Meloy was involved in dissertation did not have enough participants who were psychopathic to make comparisons. It did not show a relationship because it could not show the relationship even if there was one, not because there was no relationship. This fact was ommitted by Wood.
- Of the ten studies cited by Wood, only one was peer reviewed and published, and this one found a significant difference. A second study was a non-dissertation study that although not peer-reviewed was published as a book chapter. It did indeed fail to find a significant difference between psychopaths and nonpsychopaths on rf responses. However, the psychopaths produced three times as many such responses, and the results just barely did not meet significance (p value was .07, slightly above the .05 threshold required for significance, meaning that instead of a 5% chance that the difference was random, there was a 7% probability that the rsults were the result of randomness or chance). None of these details were mentioned by Wood et al.
- Basically Woods comes off as a crusader who bends the truth a little bit, ommits facts that don't agree with what he tries to say, etc. After his work was debunked by many articles in the scientific literature he took his criticism to "laypeoples" magazines such as Scientific American. I would generally compare Woods to the minority of scientists who don't believe that global warming is man-made. Yes, the views are out there and their work has some merit (I am not comparing Wood to the intelligent design people) but it's clearly a minority view within the field and accordingly shouldn't be overemphasized in the article.Faustian (talk) 14:26, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
- Which parts would you keep and which parts would you remove? As a layman it is hard to tell which parts have legitimacy. Chillum 03:11, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- The criticisms certainly ought to be mentioned, they should just be summarized more briefly so as not to have undue weight in the article. The reliability, validity, and tester projection subsections of the controversy section ought to be trimmed significantly.Faustian (talk) 04:25, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- "the field" here should be all of psycology, not just Rorschach research. What are the common views of the Rorschach test then? Scientific American is a well respected popular sciene magazine, and not like global warming deniers going to the tabloid press. A counter-example is cold fusion, which most physicists think is bunk, but a small minority believe in and work on. Cold fusion journals and cold fusion researchers all say it exists, while more general science publications show the mainstream scientific opinion.
- Now, I do not know whether the Rorschach test is more like global warming or cold fusion. However, I do not think you are neutral and it is not our job to analyze the research in detail. What has been published about the validity of the Rorschach test in peer-reviewed jounals that are not dedicated to Rorschach and similar tests? --Apoc2400 (talk) 09:43, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- The facts that the Rorschach is the second most commonly used test by psychologists who specialize in personality testing (the Society for Personality Assessment), the second most commonly used test in forensic assessment, is used by 80% of psychologists who work in assessment and is taugt in 80% of psychology graduate programs tells us that it is indeed widely used and accepted within the field (these facts are all referenced in the article's lead). The anti-Rorschach ideas of Wood, Lilienfeld et al are more comparable to cold fusion. They are a minority in the field. A vocal minority that has gotten some publicity and has prompted some waves within the field (as I suspect the cold fusion guys have done in physics), but still a minority. Why do you suggest I am not nuetral with respect to this test? How do you define nuetrality in this context? If I support the consensus of the majority of the scientists within the field, does that make me not nuetral? Is a scientist who claims that global warming is man-made not nuetral because he has taken a stand on the issue? Your question "What has been published about the validity of the Rorschach test in peer-reviewed jounals that are not dedicated to Rorschach and similar tests?" seems, with all due respect, somewhat odd to me. Info about psychological tests tends to be published in journals dedicated to psycholgical testing. It's a bit like asking, what has been published about cold fusion in journals not dedicated to physics? Faustian (talk) 17:43, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think that the test being very common and used by many who specialise in such in such a field in any way discredits criticism. If the criticism has gained notoriety then it should have mention, if a specific community of professionals disagree then that should also be mentioned. The idea the we should leave out criticism because the field does not accept it seems contrary to neutral coverage of a topic. We should base our content on how much notoriety the sources have. We should however be very clear what the context of the information is. Chillum 23:48, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with you completely. I don't think that anyone proposed leaving criticism out. The issue was that the article seems to contain too much criticism relative to other parts of the article and relative to the criticism's importance within the field. The reason I showed the widespread use of this test was to disprove the notion that the test was considered fringe in the field (such as cold fusion within physics).Faustian (talk) 01:55, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
The source cited above by Faustian to try to support the idea that criticism of inkblot tests is a minority position in the field is misleading. The source quoted is an organization explicitly in favor of such tests, which in itself is only a minority in the field of psychology. If we are going to talk about WP:UNDUE weight we can't promote a minority agenda-specific group as some neutral source of opinion for the whole field. Much of the field of psychology disagrees with each other. Cognitive and behavioral psychologist as a whole do not support the unscientific methods of those who use projective tests like this test and Freudian psychotherapy and so forth. Saying that most people in the field supports these tests based upon the claims made by a group specifically in favor of such tests would be like claiming that most voters in the U.S. wanted McCain to win over Obama in the last Presidential election based upon opinion polls held at the Republican National Convention. DreamGuy (talk) 20:12, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- DreamGuy, please give us some information to back up two claims you have made. First, please elaborate on the "unscientific methods of those who use projective tests" in specific terms of the Rorschach and the Exner system for interpretation (since that by far is the most frequent use of "projective tests"). What specifically is unscientific about Exner's research and methods? Secondly, please give us the specific statistics that psychologists who use the Rorschach are in the "minority in the field of psychology". "Minority" would mean no more than 49%, which seems to contradict the source that says 80% of psychologists who work in assessment use the Rorschach. Sources to back up your claims would be very helpful. Thank you. Ward3001 (talk) 20:33, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- Well, I know a few cognitive psychologists who use the Rorschach using the Exner system. Less anecdotal, thew factthat 80% of graduate programs teach it, the majority of internship oprograms require it, and that 80% of clinical psychologists doing assessment use it tells us that its the opposing side who are well within the minority within the field. But to the point - I'll get some more info about its widespread prevalence in the field and put that into the article.Faustian (talk) 21:15, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Other pages with controversial images
New consensus has emerged
2009 consensus review
The discussion
I'm basically staying out of this debate at this point, but I would like for Xeno to clarify two points so that they are not later misrepresented. I hope Xeno will make his statements here crystal clear:
- Xeno, are you expressing your opinion in your capacity as an administrator on Wikipedia? Other editors have made comments that "admin Xeno" said this or that, so I think everyone needs to know whether your above comments in this section are as an editor just like the rest of us, or as an admin.
- If you consider yourself a disinterested party in this matter, does the fact that you have previously taken positions in this debate entitle you to claim "disinterest"? In other words, if you're completely disinterested, you're simply summarizing the discussion and stating what you think the consensus should be, without having a prior opinion on the issue. Do you consider yourself to be completely disinterested, or are you somone who has expressed opinions on this issue (and thus not 100% disinterested), but you are trying to bring closure to the consensus process? Please note that I am not criticizing you either way. You certainly are entitled to try to bring closure, but do you feel that you had no opinion on the issue prior to this "review". Thanks. Ward3001 (talk) 03:01, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- I have drafted this review and submit the results to the community to do with as they wish. Before I drafted this report, I wasn't willing to rubberstamp my edit as "adminly", because I hadn't made a full examination, but now feel that based on these findings any reasonable admin would come to the same conclusion. So yes, this review, and this edit I see Faustian has already reverted, can be considered as executed in the capacity of an administrator and I will submit the reports to WP:AN for review if editors still disagree.
- Last week I had a rough assessment of community consensus, so I made a single edit to place the image in the lead with a comment as to my assessment. After I made the edit, I engaged in talk page discourse as any good editor should after making an edit that could be deemed controversial. In this report I have excluded those discussions. Thus, other than that brief discussion, I would consider myself uninvolved and disinterested except insofar as I want to see community consensus enacted and put an end to the long running disruption to the same. –xenotalk 03:16, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- Consensus is clear (42/13/3). I have re-applied the consensus edit and submitted the report to AN for review. –xenotalk 03:47, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- I say this with no reference to the issue of image placement, and with all due respect to Xeno, I do not consider you (Xeno) to be an impartial, disinterested party because you formed an opinion and expressed opinions prior to your writing this review. I cannot address whether it is proper for you to function as an admin in this situation, but (and again no offense intended here) I personally think it would be best to have an admin who has not had any prior experience on this issue to fill that role if it is needed. Thank you. Ward3001 (talk) 13:40, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- I respectfully disagree. I made a rough determination of consensus absent of my input as of 21:00, 21 May 2009. This review is simply the written form of my determination at the time of that edit. Afterwards, I engaged in talk page discourse, as any reasonable editor or admin should. However, I invite you to raise this concern at the appropriate venue, the Administrators' noticeboard: Wikipedia:AN#Talk:Rorschach test/2009 consensus review. –xenotalk 14:21, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
I appreciate the massive effort you made. A few points of my own:
- You stated correctly that "consensus is built upon the voices of the many, not the voices of the few (or the two) - especially when over half[14] of those few freely admit conflicts of interest. We must not compromise our ethics as encyclopedists for the ethics of an exterior body." However, nor is consensus a majority vote. Wikipedia:What is consensus? states that "Disputes on Wikipedia are settled by editing and discussion, not voting. Discussion should aim towards building a WP:consensus. Consensus is a group discussion where everyone's opinions are heard and understood, and a solution is created that respects those opinions. Consensus is not what everyone agrees to, nor is it the preference of the majority. Furthermore, "[3] "Consensus is a broader process where specific points of article content are consiered in terms of the article as a whole, and in terms of the article's place in the encyclopedia, in the hope that editors will negotiate a reasonable balance between competing views, as well as with the practical necessities of writing an encyclopedia and legal and ethical restrictions." As you have clearly demonstrated, we have a situation in which, according to the talk pages, the opposing sides have a ratio of 13:42 (with a further 3 arguing for a compromise position only). Consensus of course does not require unanimity, but on the other hand nor is it strictly a majority vote. The voices of 24%-27% of the editors involved ought to count for something and ought to be incorporated into the article. Where is the balance of competing views when they are not? I have initiated a discussion on the talk pages of consensus and am awaiting others' opinions: [4].
- Your counting seems to be off somewhat. At least one of the 42 people you listed as arguing against having the image hidden were not opposed to having it moved to a different section of the article (indeed, he is the one who first proposed moving it into the test materials section which you are reverting):[5] "...That said, would you object to moving the image to the "Test materials" section? In that section, the image would illuminate a number of points including: "the basic premise of the test is that objective meaning can be extracted from responses to blots of ink which are supposedly meaningless", [s]upporters of the Rorschach inkblot test believe that the subject's response to an ambiguous and meaningless stimulus can provide insight into their thought processes", and "recent research shows that the blots are not entirely meaningless". Black Falcon (Talk) 01:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC) This is one person, at least, who should be moved from the show the image in the lead section to the compromise section. Not everyone who objected to the image being hidden also opposed the version that you have reverted and insisted that the image in the lead was the only way that this could be done. You seem to be mixing up people opposed to hiding the image, with people who want the image in the lead, and inaccurately presenting it as one group, which clearly it is not. While it is safe to say that all of those wanting the image hidden or replaced with a fake one oppose having it in the lead, one cannot assume that every person who doesn't want it hidden insists that it must be in the lead and nowhere else. We already have one example above. The high number of 42 you repeatedly list is therefore somewhat misleading and the total is probably not as lopsided as you suggest.
- Your numbers do not include those editors such as this one [6] who are not involved in the discussion but who have nevertheless removed the image. Presumably they ought to count also, no?
- You bring up "wikipedia ethics." Wikipedia is not amoral, and indeed a proposal to claim that wikiepdia has no moral code failed to achieve consensus: [7]. Wikipedia editors are supposed to "negotiate a reasonable balance between competing views, as well as with the practical necessities of writing an encyclopedia and legal and ethical restrictions." There is nothing wrong with taking ethical considerations into account when writing articles. While certainly ethics codes - whose essential purpose is protection of the public good - ought not have veto power over wikipedia content, that does not mean we are obligated to ignore them entirely, either. One of the people on the "show the image" side wrote: [8] "We really shouldn't care (in our capacity as wikipedians) how many 15 year olds commit suicide because of this article; preventing the suicide of 15 year olds is not part of the mission goals, nor any consensus approved guideline I can remember. What IS our goal, however, is to create the best articles possible." I hope that this is not your view also.
- You seem to disparage the fact that one side happens to include several psychologists, based on conflict of interest (see my next point). Psychologists writing about a psychology-related topic should be considered a plus, not a minus. Is it wrong when actual biologists contribute to biology-related articles? When physicians write about medicine-related articles? If the goal is to have the best articles possible, one would hope that people in the field contributing to the articles on topics of which they are experts would be embraced, not driven away or their opinions disgarded when the actual article is created. One would think that the opinion of experts in the field would carry more weight than that of people who know little or nothing about it.
- You claim a conflict of interest among many of those seeking to not place the image at the top. If someone crosses the line from letting his or her background inform his edits to causing them to compromise his edits I agree. I have not certainly not crossed that line. I have striven to balance ethical concerns (which everyone, not just psychologists) should have with the goal of being as informative as possible. Knowing more about a topic and editting accordingly is not a conflict of interest. An admittedly rough analogy that comes to mind: some creationist putting a lot of stuff into the Darwinian article and then complaining that the biolgists opposing him are doing so out of a "conflict of interest."
- You seem to frame the debate in non-nuetral terms by referring to one side as seeking to "suppress" the image.
- Xeno, the version you are reverting is the one based on compromise. If there is no compromise, there is no consensus. We know that more people prefer to have the image up at the top; however we do not know how many people actually oppose the compromise and insist that there is no other acceptable way. These are two distinct points. Remember Wikipedia:What is consensus?: "Consensus is not what everyone agrees to, nor is it the preference of the majority." (bolded parts mine). Your numbers do not address that point.
- We ought to see how many people refuse to compromise, and then seek mediation if there is no resolution. I am restoring the previous version, which takes into account the opnions of both those who want the image in the lead as well as thjose who want it hidden, per these comments but will not get into an edit war with you over it. I hope you read and address my concerns before reverting. Faustian (talk) 04:39, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- I have read your arguments with respect to consensus, and the rebuttals. I am still of the opinion that consensus, broadly construed, holds this image should go in the lead.
- Wikipedians are, on the whole, nice people. So they often say things diplomatically, and speculate about possible compromises. When I placed those 42 editors in the column it was because they argued against suppression. As the support base grew, less and less people were willing to entertain compromises. If you would like to voir dire these numbers, I will ask the editors I've placed to re-affirm or clarify their position succinctly in light of the ongoing erosion of the various compromise versions towards the seemingly logical choice of showing the image in the lead.
- I have not as yet examined article space edits, though I am interested to see how those data shape up. I'm hoping someone cleverer than I might be able to run a query rather than me having to go through it by hand.
- I'm not particulary swayed by the hypothetical. I agree that there are certain ethical standards we should hold to as an encyclopedia - one of them is not allowing outside influences to inform our editorial decisions. I agree with you that our goal should be to create the best articles possible.
- In writing this, I was of course concerned that it may be viewed as such. I have no problem with expert attention to the article; I'm sure it has benefited greatly from it, however, they must bring with them an encyclopedia editor's hat.
- Fair enough, I'll accept in good faith that you strive to be impartial while editing the article.
- Suppress is simply the most accurate word I can think of to apply to the following actions taken on the image: deleting, removing, hiding, replacing with false or re-touched images, moving below the fold.
- As I said I don't believe we should compromise our editorial integrity in this regard and framing consensus to suggest we should isn't a compelling line of argument. Some time later
todayI will send a note to the people I've referenced in the review and ask them to affirm or clarify their position at which time I will move and/or annotate accordingly.
- I feel that consensus is sufficiently clear. Even if a couple of the 42 were to fall into the 3, it wouldn't change the landscape that much. I've said my piece, I won't be making any more edits to the article. I may, however, seek advice on other forms of dispute resolution. –xenotalk 05:23, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- Further to Faustian's #2: I see what you mean. This should fix that, it was a mistake borne of lack of red bull =] I've also left Black Falcon a note. –xenotalk 06:21, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for taking the time to reply to my points. I really do appreciate the considerable time and effort you put in, and the fact that you have definitely shown that the majority who have taken part in discussions prefer to have the image unhidden versus hidden. I've never doubted that, and indeed had mentioned that this was the case many times, but it's great that we now have it concretely shown. And indeed, the version I have been defending recently includes the real image, unhidden, in the test materials section. With regards to ethics, I think that wikipedia policy is clear in supporting a balance - putting on an editor's hat doesn't mean leaving all ethics outside the door. I find it unfortunate that others don't feel that way. Three problems still need to be addressed:
- We have no data on the extent to which the group wanting the real image unhidden refuse to accept any placement other than in the lead. I hope that when you ask those other editors, you frame the question appropriately - not "do you prefer to have the image in the lead" but "do you refuse to have the image anywhere but the lead", "are you open to image placement other than in the lead, such as the test materials section", etc. The former position indicates refusal to compromise in any way, the latter does not. Getting the answers to such inquiries would go along way to clarifying how people feel. Until we do, it is premature to declare based on number of opinions that consensus is to put the image on top. So far, we know only that a large majority are opposed to using a fake image or hiding the image. That's all we know concretely. The version that has been reverted does not have a fake or hidden image.
- As noted, we don't know how many people "vote" by editing - by removing the image altogther. This data would seem to be important. I'm waiting to see that.
- With respect to consensus, could you please outline your reasoning on why we shouldn't take the minority view into account? I've outlined the reasoning based on appropriate policy pages and essays about why we should. I'd be interested in your reasons why not.Faustian (talk) 14:21, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- I was asked to clarify what position my comments advanced, so here goes: I oppose in principle any form of suppression of the image undertaken for the purpose of suppression itself. Therefore, I oppose altogether any form of "hard" suppression, by which I am referring to actions taken to hide, replace, or remove the image from the article. That being said, I do not necessarily oppose "soft" suppression, by which I mean placing the image "below the fold", if there is a reason to do this that does not rely solely or primarily on a desire to suppress the image (for instance, if the image is more relevant to one particular portion of the text than any others). In other words, I think that the image should be placed where it would best serve to improve readers' understanding of the topic; if that happens to be below the fold, then so be it. I hope that this explanation helps to clarify my position.
- On a side-note, I noticed that the article has seen about 12 reverts in the past 72 hours. While there does not seem to have been a technical violation of the three-revert rule, having so many reverts in such a short time does go against the spirit of the policy. I think that the best chance for positive dialogue aimed at resolving the issue would be to focus on having/continuing a constructive discussion and, for now, to pay less attention to the current location of the image in the article; the consensus reached in the discussion will ultimately determine where the image goes. –BLACK FALCON (TALK) 07:40, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- The test is about much more than the inkblots; it is about the person's perceptions and the analysis of those perceptions. This article is about the test, not the inkblots. The inkblots themselves are necesary but are simply test materials, not test. The article on Astronomy does not have a telescope in the lead. If this were an article about the inkblots themselves it would be a different story. The idea of the test being simply about the inkblots is a popular misconception that is perpetuated by placing an inkblot in the lead. The purpose of placing the inkblots at the top is that they are "iconic" of the test and most easily recognizable. However, a google image search reveals that by far the most common and iconic image is the black-and-white version of the image rather than the actual image: [9]. I think that someone mentioned the possibility of having the black-and-white version at the top, indicated as such, and the actual one in the test materials section. It seems noone followed up on that.Faustian (talk) 14:21, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- Indeed, consensus is not a matter of numbers; nor is a matter of breath, which I fear Faustian and Ward have forgotten. Writing more does not make you more right. Screaming longer and louder than others does not make you more right. I've never seen anything to support the ridiculous claim that posting the image is unethical or harmful in any way, and frankly I'm tired of hearing that if you're not going to back it up. As I said before: we have an article, we have an image relevant to that article, and absent some compelling reason I don't see why it shouldn't be right where it so obviously belongs. – Luna Santin (talk) 10:13, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- Please refrain from insulting other editors by implying that they are "screaming". The APA deems it unethical to spread tests around. The purpose of the ethics code is to protect the public, thus the scientists involved in this matter collectively deem it harmful to expose the public to this image (along with any other test materials). You may personally feel differently of course.Faustian (talk) 14:21, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- Does the APA have any opinion on this image, specifically? The apparent lack of one seems telling. – Luna Santin (talk) 20:34, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- The APA ethics code does not mention any specific test but covers all tests: 9.11. Maintaining Test Security "The term test materials refers to manuals, instruments, protocols, and test questions or stimuli and does not include test data as defined in Standard 9.04, Release of Test Data. Psychologists make reasonable efforts to maintain the integrity and security of test materials and other assessment techniques consistent with law and contractual obligations, and in a manner that permits adherence to this Ethics Code."Faustian (talk) 04:41, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- Does the APA have any opinion on this image, specifically? The apparent lack of one seems telling. – Luna Santin (talk) 20:34, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- Please refrain from insulting other editors by implying that they are "screaming". The APA deems it unethical to spread tests around. The purpose of the ethics code is to protect the public, thus the scientists involved in this matter collectively deem it harmful to expose the public to this image (along with any other test materials). You may personally feel differently of course.Faustian (talk) 14:21, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- I would also like to thank Xeno for this clear, painstaking and (largely) very fair, summary here of a great deal of debate. Re-reading my early comments it seems that I might more easily fall into a category of `editors who have changed their opinion'. My initial scepticism over protecting the image has largely been replaced by support for the two main protection protagonists, i.e. they have persuaded me with their arguments. But I still feel my most problematic issues (which I must admit are more general) seem to remain unresolved - that test materials should not be shown in Wikipedia and that `Goggle images' shoud not be used as the best yardstick of what is "in the public domain". Martinevans123 (talk) 11:41, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- But many books written by eminent psychologist also show the blots, such as this, p.1144. which shows much more than we do. Google books finds very many such books. If the APa want them to be secret, they are making very little attempts to enforce that with their membersYobMod 11:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if they know their work can be accessed on googleimages. Interestingly, usage of fake inkblots isn't a problem for Britannica or encarta: [10].Faustian (talk) 14:21, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- The one i linked to is also available in libraries and bookshops (including Amazon and B&N - googlbooks gives links). I have nothing against using "fake" images (at least for the lead - the real one was more useful to me next to the description), but holding wikipedia to a stricter standard than trained and accredited psychologists does not seem a good arguement for it.YobMod 14:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- As I commented elsewhere, placing images in books is not the same as online. The fact that this is becoming blurred with googlebooks doesn't change it, and I expect eventually something to be done about it. However the authors don't put the images on the cover of the books. Indeed I have one book with a fake image on the book jacket and real ones within the text. Faustian (talk) 14:50, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, Yobmod, I'm sure if we deliberately go to a library, or even search purposefully on-line for a scholarly text, we can easily find examples. And your points about lack of APA action here are interesting. But my problem lies with frivolous, casual, or even accidental, browsing with a ubiquitous image search engine. For me, two (or several) over-exposure wrongs really don't make a right. Surely, poor control on one part of the web, is no justification for poor control on another or, particularly, here? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:44, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- The one i linked to is also available in libraries and bookshops (including Amazon and B&N - googlbooks gives links). I have nothing against using "fake" images (at least for the lead - the real one was more useful to me next to the description), but holding wikipedia to a stricter standard than trained and accredited psychologists does not seem a good arguement for it.YobMod 14:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if they know their work can be accessed on googleimages. Interestingly, usage of fake inkblots isn't a problem for Britannica or encarta: [10].Faustian (talk) 14:21, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- But you have not demonstrated that the APA or any psyhological association considers any exposure to be wrong. The lack of any response from the APA indicates the opposite. While this is obviously not conclusive, without a single cite to show that this is an ethical breach, we only have your (plural) POVs. Wikipedia cannot assume adding any information is a breach of ethics without any proof whatsoever that this is a widely held oppinion, or we could never add anything! Finally, i don't consider Wikipedia to be frivolous use - our not-for-profit disemination of knowledge is less frivolous than yet another psychologist writing a book for money and recognition. YobMod 08:54, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- Here is the ethics code: 9.11. Maintaining Test Security "The term test materials refers to manuals, instruments, protocols, and test questions or stimuli and does not include test data as defined in Standard 9.04, Release of Test Data. Psychologists make reasonable efforts to maintain the integrity and security of test materials and other assessment techniques consistent with law and contractual obligations, and in a manner that permits adherence to this Ethics Code." And I'm sorry, but the idea that people write books for "money and recognition" is insulting and sad.Faustian (talk) 15:05, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- Let me add to Faustian's response to Yobmod. The ethics code has been cited several times on this talk page (although in Yobmod's defense, he is far from being the only person to make this mistake here). And the APA's ethics code does not exist for "money and recognition". Furthermore, it is generally understood among writers and users of information in scientific journals (including but not limited to psychology) that publication is done to advance science for the common good, not for "money and recognition"; very insulting and sad indeed that someone would make such a misleading and uninformed statement.
- Well, I'd certainly write a book for "money and recognition", but I probably wouldn't choose the Rorschach for a subject. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:16, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- Here is the ethics code: 9.11. Maintaining Test Security "The term test materials refers to manuals, instruments, protocols, and test questions or stimuli and does not include test data as defined in Standard 9.04, Release of Test Data. Psychologists make reasonable efforts to maintain the integrity and security of test materials and other assessment techniques consistent with law and contractual obligations, and in a manner that permits adherence to this Ethics Code." And I'm sorry, but the idea that people write books for "money and recognition" is insulting and sad.Faustian (talk) 15:05, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- But you have not demonstrated that the APA or any psyhological association considers any exposure to be wrong. The lack of any response from the APA indicates the opposite. While this is obviously not conclusive, without a single cite to show that this is an ethical breach, we only have your (plural) POVs. Wikipedia cannot assume adding any information is a breach of ethics without any proof whatsoever that this is a widely held oppinion, or we could never add anything! Finally, i don't consider Wikipedia to be frivolous use - our not-for-profit disemination of knowledge is less frivolous than yet another psychologist writing a book for money and recognition. YobMod 08:54, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- By "..frivolous .. browsing with a ubiquitous image search engine.." I was alluding to Google Images not Wikipedia. I have no professional knowledge of APA, so I would need to seek advice from those who do. Thanks, Martinevans123 (talk) 11:03, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Xeno, regardless of what ultimately happens, I would like to thank you for the mammoth effort you have undertaken in reviewing and summarizing years of discussion Jaimeastorga2000 (talk) 19:51, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
The arbitrary break
Despite my disagreement with Xeno, I would like to thank Xeno for the painstaking work here.
I have tremendous respect for Luna Santin and intend no offense, but Luna Santin, you have simply made a mistake in your comment that "I've never seen anything to support the ridiculous claim that posting the image is unethical or harmful in any way". Regardless of Wikipedia's policies (which I am not disputing), if you read all of the discussion (including the archives), you will see ample reference to the ethical problems in exposing the image, and by no means is it a "ridiculous claim". I'm not really sure that you really believe professional ethics are ridiculous, but if you do then I would respectfully disagree. But otherwise, thank you for your comments. Ward3001 (talk) 15:25, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- It's not that I believe professional ethics are ridiculous, not at all; rather, to the best of my knowledge I've never seen you back up your claims of harm. You're doing it again, now: mentioning decisive evidence without actually quite providing it. – Luna Santin (talk) 20:34, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- Again with respect, Luna Santin, but your comment (perhaps unintentionally) did include the statement "the ridiculous claim that posting the image is unethical" (italics added), and the APA ethics code has been cited previously on this talk page. As for the issue of harm, if you'll look closely at my edits above, I gave a source that prior exposure to a Rorschach image can damage the validity of the results ([11]) and that tests in general (not just the Rorschach) should have a security level that avoids prior exposure because of compromised validity ([12]). I also provided evidence that the Rorschach can detect suicidality ([13], [14], [15]), and thus if the test validity is compromised there can be cases in which the test can miss detecting genuine cases of suicidality. If you include suicide as a form of harm, then compromising the results of the test can result in missing potential suicide. Now, if you want specific evidence of individual cases in which someone has suicided because he/she saw an image of a Rorschach inkblot prior to taking the test, I consider that an unreasonable demand for evidence because those data will never be available; psychologists do not routinely publish data about individual clinical cases in which test validity might be compromised. And we may not even know the patient saw the image until after the harm is done. But I don't think it takes a great leap in logic to see that if exposure of an image results in an invalid test, and an invalid test can result in missing a case of suicidality, then improper exposure of the image can be a factor in harm to a patient. And that only pertains to the worst case scenario. I have also made comments about less lethal, but nonetheless harmful, possible results from an invalidated test and consequent misdiagnosis ([16]). I hope this clarifies things. Thanks. Ward3001 (talk) 21:45, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks, actually; I'm going to need some time to think on this. – Luna Santin (talk) 22:56, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- Again with respect, Luna Santin, but your comment (perhaps unintentionally) did include the statement "the ridiculous claim that posting the image is unethical" (italics added), and the APA ethics code has been cited previously on this talk page. As for the issue of harm, if you'll look closely at my edits above, I gave a source that prior exposure to a Rorschach image can damage the validity of the results ([11]) and that tests in general (not just the Rorschach) should have a security level that avoids prior exposure because of compromised validity ([12]). I also provided evidence that the Rorschach can detect suicidality ([13], [14], [15]), and thus if the test validity is compromised there can be cases in which the test can miss detecting genuine cases of suicidality. If you include suicide as a form of harm, then compromising the results of the test can result in missing potential suicide. Now, if you want specific evidence of individual cases in which someone has suicided because he/she saw an image of a Rorschach inkblot prior to taking the test, I consider that an unreasonable demand for evidence because those data will never be available; psychologists do not routinely publish data about individual clinical cases in which test validity might be compromised. And we may not even know the patient saw the image until after the harm is done. But I don't think it takes a great leap in logic to see that if exposure of an image results in an invalid test, and an invalid test can result in missing a case of suicidality, then improper exposure of the image can be a factor in harm to a patient. And that only pertains to the worst case scenario. I have also made comments about less lethal, but nonetheless harmful, possible results from an invalidated test and consequent misdiagnosis ([16]). I hope this clarifies things. Thanks. Ward3001 (talk) 21:45, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yet again Ward I wholly agree with you. And you have explained part of my original scepticism over protecting the image - the "scientifc proof of harm" would involve unethical, impractical and maybe impossible measures. One group would need to be deliberately pre-exposed to images in a randomly assigned but controlled manner (knowing that this might compromise a later test/diagnosis) and one group not. Then a sufficiently large number of each group would need to be tested/diagnosed (double blind) for a statistically large difference to be demonstrated. But even testing for no genuine reason might be construed as unethical in itself. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:57, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- In an individual clinical situation (i.e., my patient whom I am trying to diagnose), testing for no reason would have ethical problems, unless the patient and I both are willing for the patient to be a part of a larger study and all the proper protections for research participants are put into place. In that particular scenario, I would not do the testing (another psychologist would), and it would be unknown whether the results would be useful diagnostically until I got them (if I could even get them; that would depend on the conditions determined in advance about release of the data). Much of the suicide research has been done in situation in which patients have been tested for clinical purposes, then the resulting data (along with suicide data) are given to the researcher after the fact (with all the proper confidentiality safeguards, of course). Combine that with the fact that suicide has such a low base-rate, and you can see why such research data are hard to get. And that's all the more reason that we want the data to be as pure as possible (i.e., uncontaminated by artifacts such as prior exposure to a Rorschach image). If even one Rorschach from such a data pool is contaminated, that can be a tremendous loss of invaluable information. The research problems with non-suicide issues are usually less dramatic, but it can still be incredibly difficult to collect such data. The Rorschach is a time-consuming test that isn't always administered in a clinical situation. If we use non-clinical research subjects (i.e., people who aren't being treated or seeking treatment), it can be a little easier to get the data, but then we have the problem of how useful the data are. We might demonstrate that the test is invalidated by prior exposure of an image, but we are not likely then to be able to relate that to "harm" because we cannot (ethically or practically) create situations in which the research subject would experience harm. Ward3001 (talk) 23:24, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- My name was not added to the list. I too think that the image should not be suppressed in any way shape or form. A convincing argument has not been put forth to hide it.--Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:44, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- I've added you to the addendum at #Additional voices. –xenotalk 04:04, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- My name was not added to the list. I too think that the image should not be suppressed in any way shape or form. A convincing argument has not been put forth to hide it.--Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:44, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- I am glad that my prior interpretation of consensus is in line with this new interpretation of consensus. Sanity checks are always very helpful. Hopefully this edit warring will stop and that image placement consensus supports can remain now. Chillum 14:08, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
- No need for words like "sanity checks", Chillum. There have been legitimate disagreements here, not problems with "sanity" (literal or figurative meaning). If you mean "accuracy checks", don't forget to count your own edits among those that have needed checking. Ward3001 (talk) 16:38, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
- I am glad that my prior interpretation of consensus is in line with this new interpretation of consensus. Sanity checks are always very helpful. Hopefully this edit warring will stop and that image placement consensus supports can remain now. Chillum 14:08, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
- I was referring to a check on my own sanity. I often refer to a confirmation or a contradiction of my interpretation of things as a "sanity check". I certainly was not attempting commentary on anyone else(other than my comment about edit warring). Chillum 16:46, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
- I also want to say that I think this edit is productive and informative. I think putting the significance of inkblots in regards to the test as a whole into the caption for the lead image is the correct place for it as such an image needs qualification to avoid misunderstandings. I also agree that the common interpretations of the image belong in the body of the article for pretty much the same reasons. Chillum 16:51, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
- It's been a long time since I was active on this page, but the same principle applies: we do not censor images out of deference to false copyright claims, or concerns that the info will somehow invalidate tests (info on other articles could change results on other tests), or because some people want to protect something related to their occupation. And this particular test is highly subjective anyway, and people taking it are supposed to make snap decisions upon seeing it (which wouldn;t be all that affected by having seen it earlier), so the odds of this screwing up tests for anyone to any meaningful degree are so low as to be ridiculous. (And are people even still using these? Seriously? It was a nice parlor game about a century ago, but I'd hoped the field had moved on by now.) DreamGuy (talk) 15:23, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- A differing viewpoint further (copied from Xeno's talk page)
This debate reminds me of my previous attempts to edit articles about Jehovah's Witnesses, a religious group of which I am a member. After consulting with our world headquarters via snail mail, I accepted their view that "fighting" for a particular presentation of information and suppressing information which we believe strongly to be blatantly false or deliberately misleading would be a fruitless endeavor; we (JWs) have specific venues through which we disseminate information about ourselves, and while lies and misinformation exists, both online and elsewhere, our duty is to "defend and legally establish the good news" through the very basic venues recommended by 1st century Bible writers and our own publications. It is up to others to decide from what sources they will acquire information, whether or not such would prove detrimental; it is simply not our call.
The reason that I bring this up is that I feel that these professionals with an interest in suppression that is inconsistent with Wikipedia's standards need to take stock of the effectiveness of this fight. Such uses of these now-public domain images permeates our culture (see Crazy (Gnarls Barkley song)#Music videos), inasmuch as misinformation and disinformation thrive in legitimate venues despite the real and potential damage such can bring. These professionals may likewise encounter published bad advice, but attempts to suppress it would likely be ineffective. As Jehovah's Witnesses may attempt to reinforce "true" statements about themselves to individuals may come to them already having taken in misinformation, so too psychologists should promulgate their expertise in settings and using means that are in their legitimate control, advising the public to be wary of potentially harmful information, but accepting the reality that no one can effectively "win" in arenas so vast and prodigious. - CobaltBlueTony™ talk 16:08, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- I forgot to add that my decision for my own editing practices was to avoid editing articles about which I hold such a strong personal view, as such could compromise Wikipedia's highest principles, not simply because such an effort would be ongoing, fruitless, and unbelievably frustrating. - CobaltBlueTony™ talk 17:10, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
A quick comment in response to CobaltBlueTony's comments: Though well intentioned, your comments basically are "preaching to the choir". Most psychologists would agree that they "should promulgate their expertise in settings and using means that are in their legitimate control, advising the public to be wary of potentially harmful information", which is why we have been doing that for many years. But does that mean we should not try to bring to bear our influence in more difficult areas where mental health is jeopardized, such as this Wikipedia article? You're right that it's frustrating, but that doesn't make it less important. Ward3001 (talk) 18:49, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, Cobaltbluetony, my efforts here may also well turn out to be `ongoing, fruitless, and frustrating' but none of those are good enough reasons for not making those efforts. I also think there may be important differences between the substance of our respective topics. But thanks for presenting a different point of view, which some may find useful. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:57, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
The addendum
In this section, I will note clarifications requested and/or made to the review after posting, as well as any additional comments that I noticed after the cut-off revision of the review.
If there is anything in the review that needs clarification, please leave a note at Talk:Rorschach test/2009 consensus review/addendum#Clarification requests.
- Degree of involvement
An important clarification request to address is with respect to potential involvement. The question was raised by Ward at #The discussion (a), and Faustian at my talk page (reproduced below). As such, I added a disclosure note above the review.
“ | In the interests of full disclosure I believe you ought to state that you had taken a side in the issue and argued in favor of one of the positions: (b). Although your review is based on what was said before you had taken a side, it was written after you had argued on that side. This probably needs to be made clear from the start of your review.Faustian (talk) 17:44, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
|
” |
- The report was also posted for review by neutral parties at the Administrators' noticeboard. It remained there for close to a week, and the conclusion was supported with no concerns raised as to the manner in which it was reached.
- Changelog
- [17] Minor changes within 2 hours after transclusion. Grammar, formatting, plus a few dates.
- [18] Fixed Martin's entry as he was in the compromise section in an earlier draft.
- [19] Clarifying header and description.
- [20] Amend per Talk:Rorschach test#The discussion (permlink) cf. Faustian #2 & my reply .
- [21] This change came after Faustian noticed a few missing voices and made note by editing the review directly.
- [22] Added comment from Faustian per request below.
- [23] Per clarification request below.
- [24] Disclosure note as discussed above.
- [25] Per clarification request, added LK's statement in a thread I had initially excluded, with some additional commentary re: involvement.
- [26] Per clarification request, expanded on the AN3 comment to make it clear it ended in mutual agreement.
- [27] To clarify the position of the IP added in change 5.
- [28] Minor clarification plus date of comment, importing proper formatting and linking from original quote.
- [29] Moved table info to footnotes and transcluded addendum.
- [30] Per clarification request, split a section and clarified that the edit war was an isolated incident.
- [31] Also made it clear that Faustian's approach has largely been one of brokering compromises between the two sides.
- [32] A caveat about word choice and making it clear that the dispute has been a civil and rational exchange of opinions, fix a typo.
- [33] Adding further comment from LK per clarification request. Minor format fixes.
- [34] Adding further comment from Saxifrage per clarification request. Added difflink to LK's.
- [35] Fixed one user from rename, added links to now-archived discussions.
- [36] Added permlink in disclosure statement and transclude now-archived discussion about consensus review iteself.
- Additional voices
In the original report, I cut off my review at revision 291659328 as after that point I had made comments. However, that doesn't mean additional voices should not be heard. I will note them below and add placeholders in the original report.
- Jmh649 (talk · contribs) commented at Talk:Rorschach test#Arbitrary break: (13:04, 25 May 2009 (UTC) Having looked at some of the literature I think the image should be moved to the top and the rest of the images should be added aswell in an image gallery at the bottom. (23:30) My comment about placement of the image in the lead is what I feel is correct per Wikipedia. We do not need convincing argument to put the image in the lead we need convincing arguments not to put it in the lead. I have not been convinced of the legitimacy of the above argument.
The clarification requests
Since I have signed the report, I would appreciate it if no one edits it directly; however, I welcome suggestions for amendments brought up either on the article talk page, but preferably below (make each request on its own line prefixed with a *bullet and signed individually) and I will incorporate accordingly. –xenotalk 17:17, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
If you just want to make a quick clarification or affirmation of your position, see below at #The clarifications.
- (none currently)
The clarifications
Below you can make a quick clarification or affirmation based on your current position towards the placement of the image. Simply add your name to the list. Brief commentary is acceptable, but for longer statements, use the clarification requests section.
- I feel the image belongs in the lead and would object to it being moved.
- Extensive explanation of my point of view is in the archives. Chillum 14:56, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- Ditto. My opinions are in the archives (see a summary here.) hmwithτ 15:13, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- It's been a long time since I was active on this page, but the same principle applies: we do not censor images out of deference to false copyright claims, or concerns that the info will somehow invalidate tests (info on other articles could change results on other tests), or because some people want to protect something related to their occupation. DreamGuy (talk) 15:23, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- My position is as demonstrated at Talk:Rorschach_test/2009_consensus_review. We can not possibly hope to accommodate every editor's personal viewpoint, and to try to do so would result in this project becoming utterly worthless. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 17:43, 1 June 2009 (UTC) in the cylindrical shape of the neuron..
- Xeno accurately represents my position, which remains absolutist, in his review. Joe 17:55, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- [37] You summarised my position correctly and put me in the right group. Thanks, Schutz (talk) 18:11, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- Accurate. In principle, I don't mind moving the image "below the fold" so long as we have an image at the top that is clearly appropriate, but since I object to the portrait, an outline, or a fake inkblot, I can't think what image could possibly satisfy me. I had indicated at some point that I was amenable to including an outline at the top but honestly I don't feel comfortable with it, and was saying that only to try to get the conflict resolved through a lot less effort than Xeno put forth in this review. Mangojuicetalk 01:13, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- Xeno has summarized my position well. I have watched this page for years. First to get the image unhidden (was amazed we were actually hiding an image) then extensive debates to relocate it to most relevant location. Garycompugeek (talk) 15:54, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- I am of this opinion. I came to this page after the compromise of having the page below the fold was already enacted, and still argued on the talk page for want of seeing it lead the document. Jaimeastorga2000 (talk) 08:19, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- The image definitely belongs in the lead, a group of experts wanting to suppress the image in the public domain is not sufficient justification to hide / replace with a fake / etc. --Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:02, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
- Someguy1221 (talk) 20:55, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
- All the ten official inkblots should be shown, with at least one of them in the lead section. Prolog (talk) 12:34, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
- Halo (talk) 12:39, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
- I'm a bit late to the party, but I still stand by my earlier comments that the image belongs in the lead as it is a suitable depiction of the article's subject. --clpo13(talk) 08:04, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
- I am open to other options, if convincing arguments were put forth for moving the image, but presently feel it belongs in the lead.
- My position is as expressed here and here, and as summarized by xeno. I would not object to moving the image to the "Methods" or "Test materials" section as long as that move was supported by a good editorial reason (i.e. better illustrating the text content of the section) and not just a desire to suppress the image. Having an image in the lead is desirable but, in my opinion, not essential. –BLACK FALCON (TALK) 17:00, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- Longer explanation in the archives but this argument by Black Falcon summarizes my position well. Rossami (talk) 17:58, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
- I feel the image belongs in the "Methods" or "Test materials" section.
- This follows wikipedia policy regarding consensus which calls for synthesizing the diverse opinions of various editors and reaching a compromise, taking into account the opinions of editors (not a tiny minority, but 1/3 of those involved) who feel that image ought to be limited for various reasons and those do not want it limited. Otherwise, consensus is reduced to just a vote, which is contrary to consensus policy. Plus, the article is about the test not inkblots and the materials or methods section is the most strictly accurate place for them.Faustian (talk) 03:59, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- I feel the image should not be shown in the article at all.
- I believe that no real Rorschach inkblot image should be shown in this article, for the reasons I have already given. But if this is not possible I would support an image only in the "Methods" or "Test materials" section. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:23, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- When psychologists administer this test, the results are based (in part) on the persons spontaneous reaction to the blot. If they have seen it before (like on Wikipedia) that may well influence their response when taking the test. Therefore that person is then deprived of the opportunity to receive the best possible test results, compromising their mental health care. Monnica Williams (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:59, 12 July 2009 (UTC).
- I believe that, even as unexpected as it may sound, in this case the images should not be displayed. There are precedents, and it is contrary to the humane reasons why people gather knowledge in the first place. --Dela Rabadilla (talk) 02:54, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
- I am confirming my position in the original report
- Hi xeno, thanks for letting me know about your review of the Rorschach discussion. I just write to confirm that I agree with your summary of my position. --Itub (talk) 02:27, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- Looks like you classified me correctly. You may also be interested to note that there's been a bit of a history of attempts to delete these images from Commons, too: Commons:Talk:Rorschach inkblot test. Not sure how relevant it is as far as English Wikipedia is concerned but it involved pretty much the same reasons. Bryan Derksen (talk) 04:14, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- I have no preference where the image should be placed. My opinion being that as an encyclopedia, the image should not be removed/hidden for the sake of censorship. - oahiyeel talk 15:58, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
- Although I prefer the image in the lead, I am willing to accept placing it elsewhere for the sake of compromise in order to accommodate other editors' opinions and bring an end to the dispute.
- Other quick clarification
from Faustian
- I believe that I ought to also be in the compromise section. This is what I have been doing consistantly. Along those lines, I object to your characterization of me as "argued consistently for over two years to keep the image as suppressed as possible as the climate of consensus changed." This seems to be putting an inaccurate negative twist on what I have been doing. I have been arguing to integrate ethical concerns with the need to provide good information. While arguing against those who would have the image in the lead, I have argued for ways of integrating their views with ethical concerns. In fact, one of the compromisers, Diego, compromised with exactly the version that I proposed: [38]. Faustian (talk) 16:09, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- I don't disagree that you have been
recentlyarguing from a position of compromise for some time, however your actual position was made clear with your earlier edits. I have included your comment below your listing. –xenotalk 17:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)- If you look at my history I have been calling for compromise on this article for a very long time, not recently. It's always been central to my approach of editing on any article and I've even been awarded barnstars for such behavior on other topics (just scroll down my user page). I've always valued the collaborative approach and have tried my best to be collaborative. This is why I take issue with how I was characterized.Faustian (talk) 18:07, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- An approach to be admired no matter the dispute. When things settle down and I get through your other requests, I'll take a closer look at this. –xenotalk 18:37, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks, please do. I consider collaborative editing to be very important and do not wish to be mislabelled. Although I do feel that it is irrespionsible and unnecessary to show the images, I have consistently for years worked on crafting compromises that take mine and other positions into account. Describing me as "Has edit-warred[5] and argued consistently for over two years to keep the image as suppressed as possible as the climate of consensus changed" seems to ascribe to me motivations of bad faith and I hope that this can be reworded. Let me help you by diggin up examples of my consistent attempts to forge consensus through compromise:
- By September 2007, I went from my original position of preferring simulations of inkblots to defending a compromise version that someone else had created, in which the images are hidden and require a click: [39]. Here [40]in October 2007 I expressed openness (albeit with reservations) for a further compromise by another editor involving unhiding the image but placing it further down, although I continued to advocate for the previous compromise of keeping the hidden image:
- Not accepting hidden pic. Will accept pic placed down the page with warning at the top as long as warning flows with the text of the article.Geni 16:01, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
- A pic further down on the page with a warning is better than one on the top with no warning. It at least doesn't automatically force anyone looking up Rorschach on wikipedia to see the image. It allows them the choice of not reading the rest of the article in order to avoid the image. But the fundamental problem is still there. By placing the image farther down, you are still not giving those who choose to read the entire article the choice of whether or not they would like to see the image. Shouldn't readers have the right to read the entire article without being forced to see the image?Faustian 18:21, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
- Not accepting hidden pic. Will accept pic placed down the page with warning at the top as long as warning flows with the text of the article.Geni 16:01, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
- Yet another agreement to a proposed compromise solution, a few days later:[41]. In March 2008 I agreed to the unhide but compromised by moving the image further down: [42]:Oops, my mistake. :-) That said, would you object to moving the image to the "Test materials" section? In that section, the image would illuminate a number of points including: "the basic premise of the test is that objective meaning can be extracted from responses to blots of ink which are supposedly meaningless", [s]upporters of the Rorschach inkblot test believe that the subject's response to an ambiguous and meaningless stimulus can provide insight into their thought processes", and "recent research shows that the blots are not entirely meaningless". Black Falcon (Talk) 01:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC) That would work, too, and I will move it there.Faustian (talk) 16:49, 8 March 2008 (UTC) And with that latter compromise the page was stable for about a year, until the current bickering. I will note that we seem to have reached the point where no further compromise seems possible because there is nothing left for the minority to agree to other than a version that it 100% in the majority's favor. I thought consensus was compromise, not changing the goals posts every few months until in the end it's just majority preference with no minority input.
- Back to my point, again, I feel that given my history I ought to be in the compromise category. Hopefully the background I found for you will help you make a change sooner than later.Faustian (talk) 14:49, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- As for my edit warring, in the example you linked to I was reverting an anonymous editor who made changes without going to the talk page. My 2+ year history of involvement on this article has few edit warring incidents, so I feel it gives ann unfair impression of me when in my description one of the first said about me is that I "edit-warred". I request that you reword my description.Faustian (talk) 14:55, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- Done [43] I believe I have addressed your above concerns, but let me know if I missed anything.
- Faustian, it is my honest opinion that you are in the appropriate section. The "Editors compromising" section is for those who, preferring open display, are acceding to some suppression in the interests of compromise/diplomacy/avoiding edit wars/etc. You, on the other hand, admit that you have been acceding to (increasingly open) display since editors, over time, no longer wanted to accept whatever form of suppression was in place. That is, your starting position is "prefer not to show at all". The fact that you broker compromises is to be commended, but doesn't change this fact. Am I wrong? –xenotalk 18:48, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- Your description is absolutely correct (although my preferred position has shifted to wanting the image hidden with a click to see the actual image, although we have moved beyond that). I just feel that compromise can work from both directions - some compromise from the position of let's show it completely, others compromise from the opposite direction.Faustian (talk) 20:24, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- An approach to be admired no matter the dispute. When things settle down and I get through your other requests, I'll take a closer look at this. –xenotalk 18:37, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- If you look at my history I have been calling for compromise on this article for a very long time, not recently. It's always been central to my approach of editing on any article and I've even been awarded barnstars for such behavior on other topics (just scroll down my user page). I've always valued the collaborative approach and have tried my best to be collaborative. This is why I take issue with how I was characterized.Faustian (talk) 18:07, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- I don't disagree that you have been
- Based on this: [44]MarkAnthonyBoyle (talk · contribs) also needs to removed from the "Editors who disagreed with the suppression of the image" and placed in the compromise section: "Umm, look, I think I've made myself clear. The compromise of hiding the image with a warning that vieing it may invalidate a test is a very good one. I don't have a problem with that." Faustian (talk) 16:09, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- In future edits, for the sake of accuracy, if you must use only 2 numbers I suggest you place compromisers together with no "suppressors". Incidentally, we seem to have a ratio of about 1/3 to 2/3. Is there any way of coming together or do the 1/3 people don't count when the actual article content is considered?Faustian (talk) 16:09, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- If I refer to numbers in the future, I will use all three numbers. I don't think we can lump compromisers cleanly into either polar side, some lean one way, some lean the other. Your question (does the minority not "count") is a good one, but beyond the scope of my report and probably best taken up at WT:Consensus#Is consensus compromise? and sometime in the future, when things settle down, I will try to compose my thoughts on this in further detail. –xenotalk 17:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- And you probably should have included Lawrence Khoo's clearest comments: "For what it's worth, some images on the page on Bahá'u'lláh and on Muhammad are also controversial. The current consensus on those pages (see Talk:Bahá'u'lláh/Photo and Talk:Muhammad/images respectively), is to keep the images, but to set them further down the page so that those who do not want to view the images have some forewarning, and can make a choice in the matter." LK (talk) 04:07, 22 May 2009 (UTC).cheers,Faustian (talk) 16:33, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for including my comments. Could you recategorize MarkAnthonyBoyle [some redundancy redacted] and could you remove Black Falcon from the list? Thanks....Faustian (talk) 16:53, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- wrt BlackFalcon
- Based on his comments here: [46] in which he indicated no specific preference (and thus he cannot be categorized) Black Falcon ought to be removed from the list. Faustian (talk) 16:09, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- As I read Black Falcon's clarification, it seems to me sufficiently clear that he disagrees with suppression of the image strictly in deference to the potential harm argument. He is willing to entertain the moving of the image for editorial reasons ("if there is a reason to do this that does not rely solely or primarily on a desire to suppress the image"). –xenotalk 17:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- Okay, however prior to May 22nd he did support placing it in the test materials section and since then he hasn't made a decision. Therefore he shouldn't be lumped together with those wanting it in the lead.Faustian (talk) 18:07, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- In March 2008, he disagreed with the hiding (via collapsible table) of the image which was the issue at the time, so I think he is appropriately placed. However, if he tells me that he does not belong in that section, I will move him. –xenotalk 19:07, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- His solution to the hiding was to place the image in the test materials section, unhidden. If he feels that it truly belongs there his catgory should be swiitched. If he is unsure of where it belongs he should not be in any category.Could you ask him if he prefers being in either section or in no section as an undecided?Faustian (talk) 04:48, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- In March 2008, he disagreed with the hiding (via collapsible table) of the image which was the issue at the time, so I think he is appropriately placed. However, if he tells me that he does not belong in that section, I will move him. –xenotalk 19:07, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- Okay, however prior to May 22nd he did support placing it in the test materials section and since then he hasn't made a decision. Therefore he shouldn't be lumped together with those wanting it in the lead.Faustian (talk) 18:07, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- As I read Black Falcon's clarification, it seems to me sufficiently clear that he disagrees with suppression of the image strictly in deference to the potential harm argument. He is willing to entertain the moving of the image for editorial reasons ("if there is a reason to do this that does not rely solely or primarily on a desire to suppress the image"). –xenotalk 17:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
As both of you have correctly noted, my position was and is that the location of the image should be determined based on where it best fits the text, regardless of whether that is above or below the fold, with the ultimate purpose of improving readers' understanding of the subject. I am not so much concerned about not having an image for the lead as I am about letting a desire to "soft suppress" affect the decision of where where the image is placed.
Part of me thinks that it may be worth, at this point, to compromise for the sake of compromise itself, just so that this dispute can be over. I do not doubt that most parties on both sides have pursued it in good faith, but I also think that it has largely run its course, in that there is little or nothing new to be said about the issue (desirability/undesirability) of suppression. Regardless of which particular column my name is added to, there is at least a two-thirds majority opposed to the very principle of suppressing the image. To me, this suggests that any continuing discussion about the placement of the image should leave alone the issue of suppression and focus on standard, editorial reasons. One mark more or less in a particular section won't make much difference.
By the way, I know that most of the discussion so far has considered the options of placement in the lead and in the "Test materials" section, but I would like to offer a middle-point: the "Methods" section, which starts with the following text:
There are ten official inkblots. Five inkblots are black ink on white paper. Two are black and red ink on white paper. Three are multicolored. After the individual...
I think that this could be a fitting location for the image—i.e. the place where the image best serves to illustrate the text. –BLACK FALCON (TALK) 19:03, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
- I totally agree. However, I don't think it should be moved because it could harm readers. hmwithτ 15:38, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- If there was consensus that was where it fit best in the article and there wasn't a better image of the test. However, at the current time, the inkblot is the best image to use, so it should go on the top right (per WP:MOS). I can't think of an image that would be better in the lead, besides perhaps an image of the test being given, but if someone did find one, that new image could go at the top. This article should be treated no differently than any other article. The best image of the topic in the lead, others in relevant sections. Normal procedure. hmwithτ 17:40, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
From Ward3001
- I'm sure "Rorschach" is your least favorite word right now, and understandably so. Let me reiterate my appreciation for all your hard work. I know you have your hands full right now, but when you get a chance I would appreciate your considering a point I wish to make here. You mentioned the AN3 report on me (Was the subject of a recent AN3 report), which I think is acceptable, EXCEPT you have not mentioned that Garycompugeek is as guilty as I was of edit warring. I don't think it is sufficient to simply provide a link to the AN3 report without mentioning our mutual guilt in edit warring. I'm not asking you to accuse him of anything, but I think it is only fair if you mention the report about me, there should be some statement as to his involvement. This is not a vendetta against him, just a desire to have a fair and balanced reporting of the situation. If you feel it best not to bring him up in relation to that issue, I think you should remove any mention of it whatsoever. If you disagree, I would appreciate an explanation. Many thanks. Ward3001 (talk) 20:00, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you for your comments Ward. I hope you, as well, realize I am attempting to remain as neutral as I can throughout this and am certainly willing to look at any instances including this one where you feel I may have fallen short of the mark. I would also like to re-iterate that I have no problem with professionals/experts editing Wikipedia articles in their chosen fields (it only makes sense... I edit video games - perhaps the only thing I can consider myself an expert on ;>). As to your clarification request: Done [47] [48] Is this better? –xenotalk 20:32, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, quite acceptable. And I fully understand your comments about experts. I personally think that Wikipedia should have some degree of editorial oversight by established experts for some articles, but that's a much broader issue that goes beyond any disagreements (or agreements) between you and me. Thanks again for all your efforts on the Rorschach issue, including this most recent request by me. Cheers! Ward3001 (talk) 21:05, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
From others
- From Lawrencekhoo
I would like it emphasized that my position now is, consensus on this page should not be considered in isolation from consensus on other pages with controversial images. Wikipedia should have a reasonably standardized policy on controversial images. As it stands now, consensus on Wikipedia appears to be, to include clearly relevant controversial images, but to place them further down the article so that readers have some choice in the matter. LK (talk) 14:12, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- From Saxifrage
- For what it's worth, I no longer hold the view expressed in my original comment. The inkblot in question is already extensively disseminated (Google Image Search). There is no prospect of putting this egg back into its shell, and it would be absurd for Wikipedia to undermine its editorial integrity to preserve a secrecy that is non-existent. — Saxifrage ✎ 23:51, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- So, just to clarify, do you fit into any of the above pre-written statements? (If not, I'll just indent your section and include this comment below it) –xenotalk 23:54, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- The categories are mostly about placement, which I don't have an opinion on. Rather, I just don't think the alleged secrecy of the image should be a factor in placement. I wouldn't "object" to it being put elsewhere than the lede so long as it was on grounds other than hiding it, so I suppose the best fit is "prefer the lede, but I'd rather see the dispute end." — Saxifrage ✎ 00:36, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- So, just to clarify, do you fit into any of the above pre-written statements? (If not, I'll just indent your section and include this comment below it) –xenotalk 23:54, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
Sections subsequent to 2009 consensus review
Custody & patrole hearings
I added a fact tag to a sentence in applications. It is entirely possible that the cite for the next sentence mentions this, but if so, i think it still should say the test is controversial in the US due to its use in these hearings (or that it is controversial because it is used in US hearings). I've never heard of custody battles in the UK or Germany using this test, so if the claim is for world-wide use and controversy, more sourcing is needed.
Also, the does the source for the APA ethics of "maintain the integrity and security of test materials" mention this test? Is a separate source not needed to show that some believe that showing the test counts as not maintaining the integrity? Word-association tests do not require that a person has never heard the word before, so it seems a debatable issue (presumable all psychologists agree with the APA ethics rule, but some disagree that this would be a breach of them - otherwise no psychologist would have ever written a book with the images in). Hast there ever been a hearing or loss of licencing from the APA over this?
More questions i had that i don't think the article covers: If seeing the inkblots damages the test results, can a person only be given the test once? Are there alternate blots for long-term patients? "let's try the inkblots again" is something one hears a lot in fiction, implying that this sort of test can be used repeatedly - are there rules for repeated use, or difference criteria to assess responses after the first ones?
Very little of the "methods" section is sourced. All the arguing over image placement seems to have distracted from more important work on the article content and sourcing :-(. YobMod 10:48, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- The APA ethics code does not mention any specific test. The ethics code's purpose is to protect the public; keeping test information secure protects the public, insomuch as prior exposure to the test compromises its usefulness. In terms of retesting, a general rule of thumb is not to retest a person for at least a year, although this isn't always practical. I doubt that the authors of some of these books are aware that the images can be accessed through googlebooks. I don't now about Germany, but the Rorschach is widely used in Spain and Latin America.Faustian (talk) 13:45, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- Oh, i agree it is widely used in Germany, just not for custody or patrole hearings. I assume the authors of the books do at least understand that these books are in public libraries - they are certainly not secret in any way. From my (limited) understanding of a APA, any breach of it's ethics code is a very serious matter, and can result in revoking of membership. If this has never happened, in spite of numerous publications of the blots by pschologists, it implies that the APA do not consider it a breach of ethics - hence why it needs more sourcing.YobMod 14:11, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- There is a difference between placing an image in a book and plastering it on the internet or making it widely visible. none of the books you mention has a Rorschach image on the book's cover or sleeve.Faustian (talk) 14:47, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- And yet, as you seem to admit, those authors have published the test images in such a way that they are readily accessible by the public, without anything in the way of apparent repercussions. Why is that? – Luna Santin (talk) 20:37, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- They are published in scholarly works typically found in university or hospital libraries rather than public libraries or bookshops. Thus they are not "readily" accessible. This is different from putting something on the internet where it does indeed become widely available. Scholars must and do exchange information, for research and training purposes. This means stuff gets into books. But ethics do call for making reasonable efforts to safeguard information for the public good. In this case, the images are not on the book cover and when these scholars write in popular magazines or general publications (such as Scientific American or Britannica) they use fake inkblots in those articles. If those scholars had put the images on the internet there indeed likely would be repurcussions (and no scholar has done this, not even the ones like Woods et al who have harshly criticized the Rorschach). Googlebooks access to the images seems to be one of those cases where technology moves forward in unplanned directions, not always good from the perspective of public good. It wouldn't be the only case of technological progress have bad repercussions, think of online support groups for unrepentant pedophiles.Faustian (talk) 04:34, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- You seem to have missed where i stated that these books are avaiable in both public libraries and amazon and B&N. The link takes you to the pages that sell them to the general public. Saying they are limited to acedemic or clinical setting is simply not true.YobMod 08:29, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- Until the advent of the internet age it was much more difficult to get this information because one had to go to academic or hospital libraries or order them from the publisher (or buy them from the university bookstore if they're used as textbooks). They don't sell these books in Borders or other bookstores and they generally don't have them in neighborhood libraries either. The mass availability through amazon etc, is a very recent phenomenon and as is often the case technology moves forward in unexpected ways, usually good but not always. Putting images into an academic text that can be bought online is not the same as posting ther images on-line.Faustian (talk) 15:00, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- You seem to have missed where i stated that these books are avaiable in both public libraries and amazon and B&N. The link takes you to the pages that sell them to the general public. Saying they are limited to acedemic or clinical setting is simply not true.YobMod 08:29, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- They are published in scholarly works typically found in university or hospital libraries rather than public libraries or bookshops. Thus they are not "readily" accessible. This is different from putting something on the internet where it does indeed become widely available. Scholars must and do exchange information, for research and training purposes. This means stuff gets into books. But ethics do call for making reasonable efforts to safeguard information for the public good. In this case, the images are not on the book cover and when these scholars write in popular magazines or general publications (such as Scientific American or Britannica) they use fake inkblots in those articles. If those scholars had put the images on the internet there indeed likely would be repurcussions (and no scholar has done this, not even the ones like Woods et al who have harshly criticized the Rorschach). Googlebooks access to the images seems to be one of those cases where technology moves forward in unplanned directions, not always good from the perspective of public good. It wouldn't be the only case of technological progress have bad repercussions, think of online support groups for unrepentant pedophiles.Faustian (talk) 04:34, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- And yet, as you seem to admit, those authors have published the test images in such a way that they are readily accessible by the public, without anything in the way of apparent repercussions. Why is that? – Luna Santin (talk) 20:37, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- There is a difference between placing an image in a book and plastering it on the internet or making it widely visible. none of the books you mention has a Rorschach image on the book's cover or sleeve.Faustian (talk) 14:47, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- Oh, i agree it is widely used in Germany, just not for custody or patrole hearings. I assume the authors of the books do at least understand that these books are in public libraries - they are certainly not secret in any way. From my (limited) understanding of a APA, any breach of it's ethics code is a very serious matter, and can result in revoking of membership. If this has never happened, in spite of numerous publications of the blots by pschologists, it implies that the APA do not consider it a breach of ethics - hence why it needs more sourcing.YobMod 14:11, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
This particular book is available from over 50 used book stores. Not just Amazon.com mind you, they are just the venue. These are independent used book stores, you can also buy it new from Amazon.com, or if you prefer a brick and mortar book store you can use Barnes & Noble. And the image of the inkblot is on the front of the book, at least partially. These books are made available to the general public in the corner book store and do show the images. I don't think Dr. John E. Exner Jr.(Executive Director of the Rorschach Workshops, which he founded in 1968; and Curator of the Rorschach Archives and Museum in Bern, Switzerland) did anything unethical by publishing this book in that manner either, if someone looks it up in the library or at a book store that is the information they will get. I don't see why such importance is being attributed to the medium in which the information is published. Book store, Internet, carrier pidgin, it all makes very little difference from an ethical point of view. Chillum 18:33, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not a forensic psychologist, so I may not have much to say here. But a couple of corrections, Chillum. Major correction: the image on the cover is not from a Rorschach inkblot. Minor correction: John Exner is deceased. One additional point not in response to Chillum: we need to distinguish between forensic uses (e.g., custody and parole) and clinical uses. Clinical patients generally have no interest whatsoever in learning lots of details about the test. At most, they may have a bit of curiosity. In the 20 years that I have used the Rorschach clinically, I have never known of a patient who would go to the trouble to gain access to a book about the Rorschach, online or elsewhere. Most are too preoccupied with many other problems in their life and desperate for someone to help them; they have little or no interest in trying to figure out the test in advance in order to manipulate the results in some way. If they do have that little bit of curiosity, they're likely to read about it in an encyclopedia, such as Wikipedia. Ward3001 (talk) 19:50, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
- YobMod, did you mean custody and parole? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:49, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
So...
Is it over? Is the page going to remain like this? Can I remove the RfC now? Jaimeastorga2000 (talk) 00:48, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
- The RFC had already expired (30d). I'm going to shortly notify the participants to ensure I have represented their positions accurately. –xenotalk 00:51, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
- Good idea Xeno, lets remove any doubt as to the interpretation of other people's stances. Chillum 04:11, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
- Oh, my bad. First time using one; didn't know they were set to expire after a month. Thank you for the correction and for your continued efforts. Jaimeastorga2000 (talk) 04:19, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
"80% of psychologists engaging in assessment utilize the Rorschach" = dubious
NOTE FOR CONTEXT: This section arose after DreamGuy claimed that the 80% figure was inaccurate (his first claim) and dubious (his second claim)
Direct quote: ""over 80% of clinical psychologists engaged in providing assessment services use the RIM in their work" (p. 402). Ward3001 (talk) 20:46, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- NOTE FOR FURTHER CONTEXT: I labeled it dubious because it is inaccurate. I don't know why you felt the need to add that text at the front, but it sounds like you were acting like the statements are contradictory. DreamGuy (talk) 22:55, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- It was necessary for me to provide the context because you did not provide any context. And to clarify, you first placed an inaccurate word in the statement contrary to the source (you inserted "personality" before assessment), and then when that was removed, you stated that it was dubious. Someone coming into this discussion without knowing that background could be more than a little confused. Ward3001 (talk) 23:08, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- It seems pretty self-evident, especially to anyone who would look at the article history. And "personality assessment" is absolutely NOT inaccurate. Personality assessment is a specific kind of assessment, even though you don't seem to understand that there are different kinds of assessments. DreamGuy (talk) 23:18, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- So let me make sure I understand what you're saying. You're saying that the source used the term "personality assessment", not just "assessment"? And I'm not asking for your opinion about what "seems pretty self-evident". I'm talking about accurately representing a source cited in the article. So did the source use "personality assessment" as you originally claimed? Ward3001 (talk) 23:25, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- NOTE FOR FURTHER CONTEXT: I labeled it dubious because it is inaccurate. I don't know why you felt the need to add that text at the front, but it sounds like you were acting like the statements are contradictory. DreamGuy (talk) 22:55, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- Then you've proven that the line in the article is inaccurate. It says: "80% of psychologists engaging in assessment utilize the Rorschach" Clinical psychologists are only a subset of psychologists. Experimental psychologists and cognitive psychologists assess people all the time, and certainly would not use inkblot tests as a method. We also need to know which psychologists were covered by the survey of "clinical psychologists" -- considering that the survey was administered by the Society for Personality Assessment, it's likely they only surveyed their own members and, when presenting the results, didn't explicitly spell out "80% of the psychologists we surveyed" in every line, assuming that would be understood. And these kinds of posts are better suite for the article talk page, not mine, so all the editors interested in the article can see the conversation, so I have moved them here. DreamGuy (talk) 20:54, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- That's absurd. Experimental psychologists don't do any assessments. If someone writes "80% of doctors delivering babies", do you think they include radiologists in that figure? The statement is accurate because it is clinical psychologists who are the ones doing assessments. And the source doesn't refer to what the authors surveyed. It refers to a review of literature of surveys on the subject. Stop splitting hairs to try to make a point, stop tendentious editing, and please read the source if you want to challenge it. Ward3001 (talk) 21:01, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- What bizarre definition of the word assessment are you using here? Experimental psychologist most certainly do make assessments. You can't just define "assessment" to mean "whatever people who use the Rorschach test do" and then say that people who do assessments use Rorschach tests. You're making circular arguments here, and it's slanting the coverage of this topic quite severely. And when I tried to clarify it to mean "personality assessment" -- which is apparently what you as well as the source you cite are trying to claim "assessment" to mean -- you reverted that change. DreamGuy (talk) 22:51, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- And please tell us how many experimental psychologists administer psychological tests (not just the Rorschach; all kinds of psychological tests: intelligence, achievement, neuropsychological, interest inventories, etc. etc.). Of course every human being does an "assessment" as in "I assessed the traffic situation and decided not to cross the road", but that's not the professional meaning of the word now is it? But that is not a "psychological assessment". Once again, you are splitting semantic hairs over the meanings of words that have a clear meaning to the average reader. So tell us which tests experimental psychologists routinely use. Ward3001 (talk) 23:17, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- Some of what DG proposes is original research, but I'll go ahead and change the article to state "over 80% of clinical psychologists". Faustian (talk) 21:06, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- That's not original research, it's simply understanding the English language and realizing that claims made must be kept within proper context so as not to mislead people. And your change does not solve the problem because we don't know who this very biased source surveyed in order to make that statement. Was it a representative sample all clinical psychologists (presumably limited to a geographic area) or member of their organization? These all make a HUGE difference. Please explain exactly who this survey was aimed at and the methodology involved so our readers can get a fair and accurate understanding of the statistic's relevance. DreamGuy (talk) 22:51, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- DreamGuy, what is this mysterious "their organization" that you refer to? The survey information is from a reliable source, and it is sourced within that source with reliable sources (peer-reviewed academic journals). If you want to challenge a reliable source, find that source and dispute its contents, or find another reliable source that states otherwise. That's the way it's done on Wikipedia. A citation to a reliable source stays intact until it is properly challenged with evidence to the contrary. You're the one challenging the information. You need to point out the specific fallacies in the reliable source. Have you read the source? Have you read the sources referred to in that source? If not, you need to begin by doing that, then make your challenges; otherwise you're challenging something without even knowing what it says or what it is based on. Ward3001 (talk) 23:04, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- The specific fallacies in the source are that the editor who added it did not give information about the metasurvey and thus is suggesting that it's all psychologists everywhere (which is patently absurd on the face of it) instead of certain kinds of psychologist in certain places. I'm sure you know all about lies, damn'd lies and statistics. This is not some game where you make a vague reference to a book to make a claim you want added to the article and expect other people to go find the context of the source to make the information more accurate, less misleading and not something pushing a POV. You are expected to either provide the proper context for wide-ranging statements or not make such statements at all. And please do not try to tell me how things are done on Wikipedia when you demonstrate very little understanding of the process yourself. DreamGuy (talk) 23:10, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- The source refers to a couple of peer-reviewed journal articles? Did the authors of those articles use "damn'd lies and statistics", and if so, what did they lie about? Ward3001 (talk) 23:19, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- The source states that 80% of clinical psychologists performing assessment services use the Rorschach. That's pretty clearly not suggesting all psychologists everywhere. It's those that perform assessment services. It's not those who only do therapy, or those who only do research with animals, etc. And try to be civil, please ("And please do not try to tell me how things are done on Wikipedia when you demonstrate very little understanding of the process yourself.").Faustian (talk) 04:13, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- "That's pretty clearly not suggesting all psychologists everywhere." And the article was written as if it were all psychologists everywhere, and that individual or individuals was guilty of abusing statistics to spread misinformation, which is why it needed to be changed. And, again, I stand by those words because they aren't being uncivil, just an accurate appraisal of your lack of understanding of rules here and your aggressive stance toward insisting other people do what you tell them to do despite not having a good reason to do so. DreamGuy (talk) 18:57, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- The article was written "In surveys, 80% of psychologists engaging in assessment utilize the Rorschach, and 80% of psychology graduate programs teach the Rorschach.[1]" The actual source stated "over 80% of clinical psychologists engaged in providing assessment services use the RIM in their work" (p. 402). I clarified that by stating "clinical psychologists" (even though most psychologists providing assesment services are indeed clinical psychologists). Thanks for assuming good faith by describing me as "guilty of abusing statistics to spread misinformation."Faustian (talk) 20:21, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- "That's pretty clearly not suggesting all psychologists everywhere." And the article was written as if it were all psychologists everywhere, and that individual or individuals was guilty of abusing statistics to spread misinformation, which is why it needed to be changed. And, again, I stand by those words because they aren't being uncivil, just an accurate appraisal of your lack of understanding of rules here and your aggressive stance toward insisting other people do what you tell them to do despite not having a good reason to do so. DreamGuy (talk) 18:57, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- The specific fallacies in the source are that the editor who added it did not give information about the metasurvey and thus is suggesting that it's all psychologists everywhere (which is patently absurd on the face of it) instead of certain kinds of psychologist in certain places. I'm sure you know all about lies, damn'd lies and statistics. This is not some game where you make a vague reference to a book to make a claim you want added to the article and expect other people to go find the context of the source to make the information more accurate, less misleading and not something pushing a POV. You are expected to either provide the proper context for wide-ranging statements or not make such statements at all. And please do not try to tell me how things are done on Wikipedia when you demonstrate very little understanding of the process yourself. DreamGuy (talk) 23:10, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- DreamGuy, what is this mysterious "their organization" that you refer to? The survey information is from a reliable source, and it is sourced within that source with reliable sources (peer-reviewed academic journals). If you want to challenge a reliable source, find that source and dispute its contents, or find another reliable source that states otherwise. That's the way it's done on Wikipedia. A citation to a reliable source stays intact until it is properly challenged with evidence to the contrary. You're the one challenging the information. You need to point out the specific fallacies in the reliable source. Have you read the source? Have you read the sources referred to in that source? If not, you need to begin by doing that, then make your challenges; otherwise you're challenging something without even knowing what it says or what it is based on. Ward3001 (talk) 23:04, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- What bizarre definition of the word assessment are you using here? Experimental psychologist most certainly do make assessments. You can't just define "assessment" to mean "whatever people who use the Rorschach test do" and then say that people who do assessments use Rorschach tests. You're making circular arguments here, and it's slanting the coverage of this topic quite severely. And when I tried to clarify it to mean "personality assessment" -- which is apparently what you as well as the source you cite are trying to claim "assessment" to mean -- you reverted that change. DreamGuy (talk) 22:51, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- That's absurd. Experimental psychologists don't do any assessments. If someone writes "80% of doctors delivering babies", do you think they include radiologists in that figure? The statement is accurate because it is clinical psychologists who are the ones doing assessments. And the source doesn't refer to what the authors surveyed. It refers to a review of literature of surveys on the subject. Stop splitting hairs to try to make a point, stop tendentious editing, and please read the source if you want to challenge it. Ward3001 (talk) 21:01, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
How many inkblot images / Discussion about consensus
Now that we very clearly have demonstrated an extremely strong consensus to include one of the Rorschach images in the lead of the article, we should have a further discussion of just how many images should be in the article. Someone above suggested a whole gallery of them. I think we probably could use at least one or two more: one with color, to show that they are not just black and white, and perhaps one of the ones that critics have suggested were selected precisely because they do have shapes that would appear to be phallic in nature. It looks like there is a wide range of images of these inkblots available at Wikimedia Commons, so it would be no problem to drop links in. DreamGuy (talk) 23:14, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
- I think the key question is what information would more than one image bring that one image does not bring? Doesn't the one shown now have color, or do other ones have multiple colors? If a good source can be found regarding the phallic appearance of an inkblot and this has been criticized then I think it is relevant if we have a body of text covering this sub-topic. Chillum 00:43, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- I think that dreamguy is just being vengeful for whatever reason: [51]. For whatever reason he's angry and wants to do something that the editors he's arguing with doesn't like. He has a pattern of engaging in conflicts apparently: [52] and [53]. Faustian (talk) 00:50, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- That's a violation of WP:AGF and inaccurate. But, yes, I don't shy away from conflicts, mainly because some editors like to aggressively start conflicts and throw accusations around and then pretend as if then not letting them continue to violate policies somehow makes me a bad person. But, yeah, so you came to my talk page to try to tell me everyone who disagreed with you was ignorant and acted all aggressive and act shocked, shocked that anyone would decide that that kind of behavior shouldn't be tolerated. DreamGuy (talk) 19:13, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- I did not accuse you of being a bad person, dreamguy, and my message to you was quite civil and not aggressive whatsoever: [54]. Indeed I was not incivil at all on your talk page: [55]. I'm sorry if I offended you in any way. However you felt about my message, it is no excuse for you to act uncivil.Faustian (talk) 20:16, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- That's a violation of WP:AGF and inaccurate. But, yes, I don't shy away from conflicts, mainly because some editors like to aggressively start conflicts and throw accusations around and then pretend as if then not letting them continue to violate policies somehow makes me a bad person. But, yeah, so you came to my talk page to try to tell me everyone who disagreed with you was ignorant and acted all aggressive and act shocked, shocked that anyone would decide that that kind of behavior shouldn't be tolerated. DreamGuy (talk) 19:13, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- I think that dreamguy is just being vengeful for whatever reason: [51]. For whatever reason he's angry and wants to do something that the editors he's arguing with doesn't like. He has a pattern of engaging in conflicts apparently: [52] and [53]. Faustian (talk) 00:50, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- As for "extremely strong consenus": 1/3 of involved editors disagree. Somehow when 80% of psychology schools teach the Rorschach it's not an overwhelming majority, but when 66% of editors want a partiuclar version it's "extremely strong consensus." Unless you believe consenus to mean majority rule or democracy rather than synthesis etc. there is no consensus.
- I wouldn't object to a second inkblot, but I would think that to include another one just to illustrate that some of the blots include colors other than black and grey would not be a good enough reason. I am quite interested, though, to see more images generally. Can we include some other sort of visual? A graph, a table, or a timeline maybe? Mangojuicetalk 01:10, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- I think it should be enough to make a gallery of the original inkblots on commons and simply link to that. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:28, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- Or better, create a page devoted to the inkblots, how they were selected, etc. and then include a couple of them there. This page, about the test, emphasizes the blots too much already.Faustian (talk) 02:22, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- The blots ARE the test, so this page cannot emphasize them "too much" -- I mean, come on, that's like saying the article on William Shakespeare concentrates on his body of work too much. DreamGuy (talk) 19:13, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- No, the blots are merely the material for the test. They are no more the test than ink and paper are to Shakepsear's body of owrk.20:16, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- The fallacy of thinking that the blots ARE the test has only been stated about 15 or 20 times on this talk page. Any first year grad student in clinical psychology knows that there's a lot more to the test than the blots. In fact, most people who take an introductory psychology course as undergrads pick up on that particular fact. As for the incredibly strained logic that "this page cannot emphasize them 'too much'", if we follow that line of reasoning, there would be no words in the article, just a page with inkblots. I suppose that's what DreamGuy is proposing, that we remove any remnant of explanation (not to mention citations to research) from the article and have a page with nothing but ten inkblots. Ward3001 (talk) 21:29, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- Ah yes, the ultimate low-maintenance projective article. Or would it be just a bit of a white elephant? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:40, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- The fallacy of thinking that the blots ARE the test has only been stated about 15 or 20 times on this talk page. Any first year grad student in clinical psychology knows that there's a lot more to the test than the blots. In fact, most people who take an introductory psychology course as undergrads pick up on that particular fact. As for the incredibly strained logic that "this page cannot emphasize them 'too much'", if we follow that line of reasoning, there would be no words in the article, just a page with inkblots. I suppose that's what DreamGuy is proposing, that we remove any remnant of explanation (not to mention citations to research) from the article and have a page with nothing but ten inkblots. Ward3001 (talk) 21:29, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- No, the blots are merely the material for the test. They are no more the test than ink and paper are to Shakepsear's body of owrk.20:16, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- The blots ARE the test, so this page cannot emphasize them "too much" -- I mean, come on, that's like saying the article on William Shakespeare concentrates on his body of work too much. DreamGuy (talk) 19:13, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- Or better, create a page devoted to the inkblots, how they were selected, etc. and then include a couple of them there. This page, about the test, emphasizes the blots too much already.Faustian (talk) 02:22, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- I think it should be enough to make a gallery of the original inkblots on commons and simply link to that. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:28, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
I don't know of any evidence that Hermann Rorschach (and he's the one who selected all of the images) selected any images "because they do have shapes that would appear to be phallic in nature", but if someone has a reliable source indicating that he did, that would be interesting information. Ward3001 (talk) 01:21, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- Re "extremely strong consenus", um, I thought the consensus review was still ongoing, pending submission of final clarifications from all those invited to give them? Will Xeno than come to a final decision? Surely discussion over "number of images" a little premature before then? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:31, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- Agreed. I was a bit shocked to see the image moved even before the consensus process was completed. I just got a message from Xeno yesterday, and haven't had a chance to read over the whole summary yet. Also, and apparently this needs pointing out, one person summarizing the discussion and declaring his interpretation of it, does NOT make concensus. LK (talk) 13:48, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- My review has been posted at the administrators' noticeboard since May 28th. If you dispute my interpretation of consensus or have an issue with my actions with respect to resolving this dispute, I suggest you raise your concerns at Wikipedia:AN#Talk:Rorschach test/2009 consensus review. –xenotalk 13:55, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- Dreamguy began this discussion following his threat to do so if I didn't desist from defending my opinion [56]: "I think the compromise is that there's only one image up instead of a number of them. Some people expressed interest in having more images there, and I think that'd be perfectly acceptable. The consensus to have one image was pretty strong, so I suspect editors wouldn't be opposed to having more. If that current situation is unacceptable to you we could hammer out a new compromise, but it might end up being even less desirable to you than the current one.DreamGuy (talk) 15:50, 1 June 2009 (UTC) Faustian (talk) 13:59, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- Wasn't a threat, simply pointing out that the article already leaned too far in favor of kowtowing to the opinions of people like yourself not following Wikipedia policies. Gosh, now I am accused of acting in the interest of what the consensus of editors said they wanted to do instead of promoting the ends of a aggressive minority. Heaven forbid. DreamGuy (talk) 19:13, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- Dreamguy began this discussion following his threat to do so if I didn't desist from defending my opinion [56]: "I think the compromise is that there's only one image up instead of a number of them. Some people expressed interest in having more images there, and I think that'd be perfectly acceptable. The consensus to have one image was pretty strong, so I suspect editors wouldn't be opposed to having more. If that current situation is unacceptable to you we could hammer out a new compromise, but it might end up being even less desirable to you than the current one.DreamGuy (talk) 15:50, 1 June 2009 (UTC) Faustian (talk) 13:59, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- @Martin, the notes were sent out to verify the respondents positions (as the landscape changed over the last four years). Without a bunch of the respondents suddenly making a complete about-face, my conclusion is unlikely to change with respect to the single image. –xenotalk 14:04, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- This speaks to the preferences of the majority of involved editors as well as their willingness to compromise or seek consensus. However it doesn't address the issue of consensus itself which is not accomplished by vote. To paraphrase somethng I wrote on my talk page, I asked the "experts" about consensus on their input regarding what consensus means in such a case here on the talk page of the article on wikipedia consenus policy :Wikipedia talk:Consensus. Four people offered their opinions, which seem to have been evenly divided. Two experts felt that limiting the image violates the NOTCENSORED principle, and that this violation trumps any possible consensus. The discussion doesn't make clear, however, if when talking about censorship they are talking about image placement or using a fake image. Two other experts seemed to indicate that a compromise ought to be reached for it to be consensus. One stated "And though we disregard what external organizations want us to write or not write, we do not disregard what our editors want to write and not write." (which I suppose supports a compromise so as not to disregard what some of our editors - 1/3 of the ones invovled here - want). The other states that "Consensus should be, when at all possible, when the concerns of all editors are addressed as much as is reasonable without tilting the individual points too far one way or another. For some topics of discussion this may not be possible (whether a source is valid for example, or whether a subject is presented with a neutral point of view). For yet others it should be possible to work out compromises (designing templates, proposing changes to the MediaWiki software, etc)." In my opinion, moving the image to the methods or test material section would tilt it far in the direction of those who don't want to limit it at all but would still demonstrate some acceptance of the minority's viewpoint, in a way that would probably match the 1/3:2/3 preference for limiting/not limiting the image. It would be a true reflection of what most editors want, and thus actually reflect consenus.
- My view is that censorship applies with respect to not including the image at all. However, image placement (in the lead? in the methods or test materials?) is an issue of editorship rather than of censorship. An article isn't "censored" because it's on page 2 of a newspaper rather than page 1. So therefore, IMO, censorship isn't an issue here and thus the rules regarding compromise and taking various editors' opinions apply. If it turns out that your poll shows that the overwhelming majority refuse to want to compromise on this issue, I think that the next step (mediation?) would be in order. But let's see what happens now, first.Faustian (talk) 14:16, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- If you're going to use that line of argument, I'd suggest getting a much wider range of opinions than that of those (not necessarily experts) who just happen to be watching WT:Consensus. Perhaps an RFC on that page, added to Template:Cent. –xenotalk 14:52, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- Would that attract people who know the consenus policy or just random people who may not? I would welcome input and the opinions of as many people as possible who know something about wikipedia: consensus. However, I'm afraid that a random sampling of people who may have looked at the consensus page for the first time, in response to the RFC, won't produce a very informed opinion. Is there a group out there somewhere classified as experts of wikipedia policy to whom we can turn to for an opinion?Faustian (talk) 15:03, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- It should attract a wide array of opinions. Experts on Wikipedia policy? The only group close to this would be administrators in general, I suppose (and your mileage may vary!). Remember, our policies are descriptive rather than prescriptive; so what can anyone really "know" about them?...except what has happened in the past, and whether policy as written accurately reflects what actually happens in practice. I think your question of whether a few minority voices can be disregarded in light of a seemingly overwhelming majority is an interesting one and would like to see how it plays out on a wider stage. –xenotalk 15:13, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- If it is one or two exceptions than it seems clear that those voices can be ignored - consensus is not unanimous. In this case, however, we have a substantial number of dissenters (1/3 of involved editors), not just a few in light of a seemingly overwhelming majority. Moreover, looking at the background of dissenters it seems that the more someone knows about the Rorschach the more one is likely to be a "dissenter." I know that no one can "own" an article, but still, it's unfortunate that in this case it is exactly the experts whose opinion is disregarded. Xeno, how would one do an RFC on the consensus issue? I'm bad with respect to such processes...Faustian (talk) 03:52, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:RFC#Instructions. You've already done step 1, so just add the {{rfctag}} and brief neutral statement as instructed to the top of the section you've already started. Then I'll pop it into Template:cent. –xenotalk 04:08, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Folks, can we keep the meta debate about who has done what to whom to a thread of its own? The topic of this thread is how many images to use, the topic of every other thread on this page is all that other stuff unrelated to the article. I think consensus is clear enough to at least resume normal editing. Lets put the sour grapes behind us and talk about the content of the article.
I don't think we have yet been given a good reason for showing more than one pictures. If we have a body of text that shows notable commentary on a specific image fine, but until then I don't see the benefit. Chillum 15:14, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, Chillum, but I am still a little surprised that this is a valid topic for discussion at all, before some kind of satisfactory resolution of the main debate. For the benefit of us non-admins with short memories, I wonder could Xeno briefly summarize the steps that should happen next as part of the review process? I'm sure that normal article editing can now resume but "how many images" just seems a bit contentious right now. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:37, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
- As I said, my review is complete and I don't really expect the conclusion I reached to change (especially based on the responses thus far). Next steps? Keep editing as you were: with collegiality, using the talk page to hash out disputes. I believe Faustian is still working up the "What is consensus" angle, and I gave him some advice above on that. The issue of whether to include more than one Rorschach image is beyond the scope of my review. That being said, I don't see more than one person who is arguing for more inkblot images. I note that the commonscat template at the bottom can lead one to more images if the one shown here leaves one wanting. –xenotalk 17:46, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
Well since we are not sticking to the subject of the thread I will comment on the topic that seems to be dominating it. I seriously think those challenging the consensus now would say there would be a consensus if only 1/3rd of the people wanted the image at the top and the rest wanted it moved or removed. I strongly suspect that those challenging this evident consensus are doing so because they do not like the outcome. There is clearly no consensus to deviate from our normal style of presentation for an article, and plenty of agreement to follow it. Perhaps consensus will change about this in time but it is in clear favor of the image being at the top at this point in time.
I agree that this is probably not the best time to request more images. I certainly think if we do add more images there needs to be a very good reason, and a body of supporting text that is well sourced and justifies the addition. I have not seen that yet. Chillum 04:58, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, as LK (talk) has pointed out, the normal style of presentation for an article in which the image is controversial is to include the image (rather than censor it or hide it) but to move it further down the page. This is how it was done in, say, the articles about Bahá'u'lláh and Muhammad (see Talk:Bahá'u'lláh/Photo and Talk:Muhammad/images respectively). If the ratio were reversed I would still call for a compromise, although it would have to be one closer to the position of those who don't want the image up to reflect the range of people's opinion accurately. I would NOT just disregard the 1/3 who disagreed with me, which apparently much of the current 2/3 majority would like to do with the opinion of the 1/3 minority.Faustian (talk) 13:28, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- That's nonsense. There's no real consensus for handling controversial images in that way, and the kind of controversies involved there are not the same as the false, manufactured one here. And you have been readily ignoring anyone who disagreed with you for years, so to claim you wouldn't if the situation were reversed doesn't ring true. The 1/3 minority seems to be making its opinions based upon personal beliefs and not Wikipedia policies, so, like all editors who want to ignore policies, yes, those people can be safely ignored. DreamGuy (talk) 19:13, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- I have been offering various compromises for years, not ignoring others' views: [57]. Rather than make personal attacks I suggest we stick to the ideas. We have two links to two articles in which images are controversial, in which the controversy was handled not by removing the image or placing it in the lead but by keeping it while placing it further down the page. Wikipedia policy states that consensus involves compromises between various opinions [58]: "Consensus is a broader process where specific points of article content are considered in terms of the article as a whole, and in terms of the article's place in the encyclopedia, in the hope that editors will negotiate a reasonable balance between competing views, as well as with the practical necessities of writing an encyclopedia and legal and ethical restrictions."Faustian (talk) 20:16, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- That's nonsense. There's no real consensus for handling controversial images in that way, and the kind of controversies involved there are not the same as the false, manufactured one here. And you have been readily ignoring anyone who disagreed with you for years, so to claim you wouldn't if the situation were reversed doesn't ring true. The 1/3 minority seems to be making its opinions based upon personal beliefs and not Wikipedia policies, so, like all editors who want to ignore policies, yes, those people can be safely ignored. DreamGuy (talk) 19:13, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Though if there is any relevant and reliable information on the significance of color in the images, I must say this is striking: File:Rorschach_blot_08.jpg. Chillum 05:00, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- Keeping with the original topic, I'm not sure how much information an additional image would add. A colour blot might add something, but if any other related media can be found it would probably be preferable to simply sticking another ink blot image on here. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 06:46, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- Those who know of my previous contributions might guess my position on this one. The words `wound', 'salt' and 'rubbing' spring to mind, but not necessarily in that order. Do editors really think that, in view of the huge effort expended in the debate over the past two years on the use and location of one single image, and the massive review effort by Xeno, this question is the best one with which to develop the article? Or is this communal "wiping the slate clean" a necessary part of "proving" that a new "extremely strong consensus" really has been established? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:13, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- Those who have read other editors' comments above know that the question is valid and consensus has been established pretty conclusively on one aspect and should be further hammered out on some others. DreamGuy (talk) 19:13, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- Your zeal for better construction here seems just a little daunting. Hammer away, but count me out, thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:57, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- ... -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 02:15, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- Your zeal for better construction here seems just a little daunting. Hammer away, but count me out, thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:57, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- Those who have read other editors' comments above know that the question is valid and consensus has been established pretty conclusively on one aspect and should be further hammered out on some others. DreamGuy (talk) 19:13, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- Those who know of my previous contributions might guess my position on this one. The words `wound', 'salt' and 'rubbing' spring to mind, but not necessarily in that order. Do editors really think that, in view of the huge effort expended in the debate over the past two years on the use and location of one single image, and the massive review effort by Xeno, this question is the best one with which to develop the article? Or is this communal "wiping the slate clean" a necessary part of "proving" that a new "extremely strong consensus" really has been established? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:13, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- I am not sure what hammers and sickles have to do with the debate, but I do know that this consensus was reviewed and confirmed by a venue composed of uninvolved people very familiar with our policies: [59]. I find it disingenuous to say that there is no consensus. Of course it is not a vote and of course 2/3 does not automatically beat 1/3, we all know that. But when the 2/3 base their opinion on policy and the 1/3 use opinions outside of policy, and then several independent parties review the consensus and confirm it, then yes that is a consensus.
- Your points of view have not been ignored, rather your points of view have been given enormous consideration, we listened to each argument and for months on end we debated these points with you. We have not been convinced of your point of view. I suggest you focus more on trying to change people's minds about the arguments you are making instead of attempting to discredit what is clearly the preferred decision of the community. Chillum 15:46, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- Our points of view are functionally ignored when the final product doesn't take them into account at all. Consensus isn't just about hearing out all sides - it's about building the article based on the various opinions. It's not unanimity - if one or a couple peole differ we don't have to defer to them. But 1/3 is more than just a small minority. Please read these Wikipedia:What is consensus? carefully, it really spells it out clearly. If you have time, would you mind doing that? With respect to policy, image placement is not censorship; otherwise everything not on page 1 of a newspaper is "censored."Faustian (talk) 21:37, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- How do you suggest we incorporated the idea of not putting the image at the top of the page with the idea of putting it at the top of the page? Should we perhaps have it on the top on Monday through Friday and give you the weekends? I have read WP:What is consensus? and I have even participated in building its contents over the years. The fact is that your position is diametrically opposed to the position that the image should be at the top of the page. The only way I could see us compromising would be to let the vocal minority get its way and ignore the majority, we would have to put the personal opinions of the few over the policy interpretation of the many. We are not going to do that.
- It seems the only people who have a problem with this interpretation of consensus are those whose personal opinions are not in line with that consensus. Why is it only the side that did not get what it wanted that seems to doubt this consensus? Neutral examination of this debate has shown the what the consensus is. Chillum 22:12, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- We got to the point where the choice was "not putting the image on top" vs. "putting it on top" because we compromised between other positions. Some people wanted the image hidden, others wanted a simulation of an image rather than an actual one, others wanted a black and white version of an image. Ultimately we compromised on a version that included the actual image but didn't have it at the top. This position was a way of addressing concerns over censorship while still taking into account the opinion of the substantial minority. It was closer to what the majority wanted than what the minority wanted but still reflected both sides and didn't just disregard one side - a compromise. And this version was stable for about a year. With respect to consensus, on Sunday I'll try to do a RFC on that page. But what do you make of the fact that over and over again the consensus pages emphasize that consensus is not about votes or majorities but about synthesizing and putting together everyone's opinions? There's even a quote there that consensus is not the majority's preference but a version that almost everyone can live with. This is totally different from what you seem to be saying - everybody has the right to convince others but if they fail to do so than the majority gets its way. Faustian (talk) 02:18, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- I don't remember saying that there was "no consensus" (although others might, and the whole issue of consensus itself seems still to be under debate here). And I was not consciously trying to "discredit" anything. I was suggesting that the concensus apparently reached may not be "extremely strong". I find it interesting that only 11 of the 61 contributors idenitified by Xeno have offered any clarification of the position he has assigned them. But forgive me for suggesting that consensus may be something reached by mutual consent, rather than by "hammering it out". I was in fact hinting that trying to reach "consensus by force" might be similar to the approach adopted by Lenin's 1917 revolutionary Cheka (although he did at least keep the sickle). And sincere apologies if you have had to debate "for months on end" - I had not realised my arguments had run out of time. 17:52, 4 June 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Martinevans123 (talk • contribs)
- My point is that is an extremely strong consensus. I don't think it was forced at all, it was allowed to develop over time with debate. . Your arguments have not run out of time, they are still welcome. If consensus changes so can the page. I think comparing this debate to a group that policed labour camps, ran the Gulag system, liquidated political opponents, and put down peasant rebellions is a bit over dramatic. This seems a not so subtle variation of Godwin's law. Chillum 18:00, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- Ah yes, that would be Mike Godwin, the general counsel for the Wikimedia Foundation, wouldn't it. Then, obviously, you must be right. But I think the trusty hammer and sickle was probably much more useful than that silly old swastica. And the Gulags only really got going much later, didn't they. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:29, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- Let me clarify my point. I find your comparison to be gross hyperbole, irrelevant, and offensive. Chillum 18:49, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- But which one? I'd let DreamGuy defend his own hammer, but you seem to have your own readily to hand. Very clearly. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:17, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- Perhaps we would communicate better if you spoke literally instead of using metaphors. I am having trouble deciphering your point. Chillum 21:13, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- I don't see what additional inkblot images would add to this article. – Luna Santin (talk) 20:28, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with Luna. It has not been made clear what additional inkblots would add to the article at this point. I also don't see anyone but one person suggesting it at this point. I think we can put this idea on the shelf for at least a while. Chillum 21:12, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- And I agree with Luna and Chillum, but I must stop using metaphors. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:36, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- If we are going to include an image gallery, I think 2 should be the minimum, because 1 would be tacky. One of the color inkblots would probably be a must, because it would be radically different and show how inkblots aren't only black and white. Jaimeastorga2000 (talk) 08:31, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Encyclopedia
We are here to write an encyclopedia. We are not here to represent the organizations we come from / are affiliated with or to push the agenda of said organizations WP:COI. We are here to provide information not to sensor it. It would be interesting to see all the inkblots with a description of each on. I agree however that this should take place on a seperate page.--Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:03, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- Doc, a couple of questions. First, how do you propose providing a "description of each"? I realize that psychologists' opinions don't matter here, so am I correct in assuming you do not prefer using the terms that are generally used by psychologists (Card I, Card II, Card III, etc.)? Do you suggest placing your own interpretation of each (e.g., "This one looks like a bat to Doc James")? Or do you prefer citing one of several non-professional websites that indicate the "normal" response for each card? If you suggest the latter, are you aware that if someone follows the advice of these websites he/she will actually produce a more pathological Rorschach than the average uncoached responses? So which is your procedure for "describing" the inkblots?
- Second, which of us here "represents the organizations we come from / are affiliated with", and how did you arrive at that conclusion for each? Name each of us specifically who represents an organization, name the organization we represent, and tell us how you determined how each of us was placed into that position of representing that organization. Don't neglect to include any organizations that you represent. Thank you. Ward3001 (talk) 15:36, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- The images are collected on the Commons -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 15:40, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
- Full disclosure, I work for a company that sells books. As a result I may be bias towards informing people about the topic they are seeking information on. Chillum 16:10, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Just spent about an hour reading this page and some archives, and er, it's amazing how this keeps going and going! Maybe we should follow the lead of the other articles with controversial images in at least one respect, and divert the image discussion to Rorschach test/Image? Or agree that the issue will be discussed only on a regular schedule, say for two weeks each quarter, so that other article development can take place and folks know when to come back and repeat their positions.
My view is that the inkblots are integral to the test, and therefore integral to an article about the test; there have been good and valid reasons given for excluding them entirely, but none have persuaded me that excluding an inkblot image is consistent with the mission of an encyclopedia. (I'm open to such persuasion, as I've argued that information on medication dosing and specifically lethal dosages should be excluded from drug articles). On the other hand, I don't find it necessary that the inkblot be the very first thing readers see when they pull up the article. I wouldn't be opposed to the "compromise" solution of putting the image further down the article, although I imagine few readers will view the article but skip the image. If such a mild step will put a stop to the argument, why not? Absolutism is self-defeating - Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien. Nathan T 23:34, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
- A couple of comments in response to Nathan. First, thank you very much for your comments. Secondly, the current discussion has been about whether the image should be lower on the page in the logical place adjacent to "Test materials" or at the top. So would it be appropriate to include you among those who feel that placement lower on the page is acceptable? I don't want to assume anything about your opinion that isn't true. Thirdly, although I understand why you might wish to move the discussion on the image to a separate page, I prefer that it remain on this page so that any casual reader can see the reasons (or lack thereof) for the decisions that are made about the image. A huge portion of all discussion here and in the archives relates to the image anyway. And I really doubt that limiting when it can be discussed will accomplish very much. We previously had a very stable compromise between the psychologists (and other sympathizers) who didn't want the image at all and other editors who felt that the image should be included. That compromise resulted in placement of the image lower on the page at the appropriate place next to "Test materials". That compromise stayed in place for quite a few months with little disruption. Then recently expert opinion was deemed irrelevant, stability and the compromise were thrown out the window, and we now have the image back at the top. So I don't think limiting discussion will stop some editors from ignoring any agreement and discussing anyway. But thanks for you thoughts. Ward3001 (talk) 00:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Speaking of Encyclopedia - wikipedia is the only encyclopedia that uses the actual images. Encarta, Britannica, Americana etc. all use fake images. Are they not Encyclepedic? There may be other reasons for including the images but certainly being Encyclopedic is not one of them, unless one believes that wikipedia is the only Encyclopedia. Faustian (talk) 02:20, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- I think the real question as it pertains to this article is, "Is Wikipedia encyclopedic?" The difference between those encyclopedias and Wikipedia is that on those encyclopedias there isn't a knee-jerk reaction to reject an idea simply because it comes from an expert on the topic. They also differentiate between those who are real experts and those who pretend to be experts. Ward3001 (talk) 02:34, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- I don't see the logic in limiting ourselves to paper encyclopedias. They simply cannot have full coverage of every little subject like Wikipedia can, it would take too many book shelves. Chillum 03:35, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- They use fake images. They had the room for an image, and used an image, but chose not to use the real one. Here's Encarta's fake inkblot: [60]. Apparently the people behind Britannica, Encarta etc. don't believe using the real image is necessaary to make their article Encyclopedic. But what do they know about Encyclopedias :)Faustian (talk) 04:03, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- I don't see the logic in limiting ourselves to paper encyclopedias. They simply cannot have full coverage of every little subject like Wikipedia can, it would take too many book shelves. Chillum 03:35, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- A fake image? I think we can be more informative than that by using a real image. It is not for us to say that other encyclopedias should avoid original research and stick to the facts, those are our goals and our standards. We are not really the same thing as other encyclopedias. Chillum 05:48, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- We don't have any problem with experts and outside interests including information on Wikipedia. It is when they attempt to exclude information that it becomes an issue. There are just so many groups that want one tidbit of information suppressed in one way or another, we simply cannot accommodate them. The idea of Wikipedia is to be a more complete and free(as in free beer and as in freedom) than the other existing encyclopedias. There are plenty of other websites(and encyclopedias) with more conservative goals. Chillum 05:22, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- Also I would hardly call the years of consideration that this is issue has been given "knee jerk", plenty of thought has been put into this. This has nothing to do with your credentials, we would react the same to pretty much anyone who wants to suppress accurate and relevant information. Chillum 05:50, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- No one has argued against the hiding of this because of an expert opinion. That's a straw man. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 08:53, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- Chillum, who exactly are these ".. so many groups that want one tidbit of information suppressed in one way or another.." and how exactly are they relevant to THIS article? But could we have the full list? Or are there just too many to count? Thanks, Martinevans123 (talk) 17:52, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- With respect Chillum, but your use of the term "straw man" is hyperbole and itself a "straw man". Exactly how much have expert opinions influenced placement of this image in the article as it is right now? Exactly how much was expert opinion sought in the decision to place the image where it is right now? With a very few exceptions, such as Martinevans123, I don't recall a single instance in which the sentiment was ever expressed that we should seek the opinions of experts in this issue. And that is an altogether different issue than "Anyone can edit Wikipedia". Yes, of course anyone can edit; otherwise the image probably would not be in the article at all (just as it is not in the articles of Encarta, Brittanica, etc. because in those encyclopedia nonexperts contribute but they seek opinions of experts). And in this particular case, "knee-jerk reaction" does not refer to the collective amount of time that this debate has taken (mostly because the experts have had to fight tooth and nail to get their opinions heard); it refers to the reaction of individual non-experts when an expert expresses his/her opinion here. Perhaps a better way to put it is the combination of many knee jerk reactions. Ward3001 (talk) 18:13, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
- I used the term "straw man", not Chillum. You presented the issue as though people reject the hiding of the image because of an expert opinion. That is blatantly false. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 03:01, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- Apologies to Chillum for my confusion. OK, Consumed Crustacean, I'll repeat my questions for you: Exactly how much have expert opinions influenced placement of this image in the article as it is right now? Exactly how much was expert opinion sought in the decision to place the image where it is right now? And note my above statement that simply responding "Anyone can edit Wikipedia" doesn't address these questions. Ward3001 (talk) 03:05, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- I don't know exactly why you're asking that of me. Is this a response to my point, or a fresh question? If the former: You said:
The difference between those encyclopedias and Wikipedia is that on those encyclopedias there isn't a knee-jerk reaction to reject an idea simply because it comes from an expert on the topic.
- I said:
No one has argued against the hiding of this because of an expert opinion. That's a straw man.
- There's nothing complex there, and your asking this question makes no sense in this context. If for some reason you're asking this a new question and simply confusing the threading, then: it was not sought, nor need it have been. I'll point you to WP:5P and WP:V and hope you understand how this project works. I'm not going to argue the merits of the way in which this project is meant to function here; this is not the place for it. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 03:16, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
I agree that expert opinion "was not sought". It's a matter of opinion as to whether it should have been. Neither WP:5P nor WP:V preclude seeking expert opinions for any article, so referring to those policies does not really address the issue. But thanks for your answer. At least we agree that expert opinion was not sought on this issue. Ward3001 (talk) 03:58, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- Wikipedia does not seek expert opinions any more than we seek ordinary people's opinions. Our rules on neutrality require that we source our content and as such being an expert bestows only the advantage of knowing where to find the sources and how to disseminate them. We truly do appreciate such contributions. While we do not put extra value on particular classes of people(rather we work based on the weight of their argument), we do value reliable independent published works in that they provide informative content. To my knowledge we don't seek out anyone to tell us what not to put into our encyclopedia as this particular service is antithetical to our goals. Chillum 04:31, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, it's useful that an expert has (at least) the advantage of "knowing where to find the sources and how to disseminate them". The only expert opinion offered so far in this discussion, supported by verifiable sources, has suggested that pre-exposure to an image might result in harm. This seems to have conflicted with some "ordInary people's opinions" which, in contrast, Have not been supported by any sources. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:58, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- Like I said we seek outside sources for the information they provide for us to include. We don't really seek out any source to tell us what to exclude. If there was a source that said our image was not an accurate representation of the inkblot that would be something, but a source saying we shouldn't use it is not relevant. There are plenty of sources espousing the harm of showing Muhammad, we still show the picture. There are plenty of sources that say cold reading is ineffective if it is explained to a person how it is done, we still explain this in its article despite the phone physics whose careers may be effected. At most we mention this fact and reference it to reliable sources. We cover the information, we don't obey it. Chillum 13:48, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- Brief note - actually the Muhammad images are included, but not in the lead. Indeed, even though the article is about the man his picture isn't anywhere close to the top of the article (contrast this with the article about Jesus). That's because although we don't violate wikipedia policies on censorship, we do take other opinions into account without violating those policies. It's too bad expert psychologists aren't given the same consideration as Muslims are (or perhaps religion is more important on wikipedia than science).Faustian (talk) 17:37, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- Since this article is about the test not the inkblots multiple images would be inapropriate. The Jesus article has 13 images of Jesus, and one in the lead. The article on volcano has 14 or so in the article and one in the lead. I can add a few hundred more such examples if I had time. Why for "stylistic" reasons would six images mean that one shouldn't be in the lead? BTW guess how many images of Muhammad are there in the article on Islam. Even though he founded that religion, there is not a single image of him on that article (lots of images of Jesus in Christianity). The fact is that the opinions of Muslim editors are taken into account for religious reasons but the opinions of psychologists, scientific ones, are not taken into account in the final makeup of this page. This inconsistancy between the Rorschach page and the one on Muhammad indicates suggests that religion is more respected than science here on wikipedia. How encyclopedic is that?Faustian (talk) 22:06, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- I still have not heard of a better candidate for the starting image. Surely Dr Rorschach himself is not the whole test, or for that matter even part of the test. The inkblot is the best visual representation of the test we have. I don't think we have given into religious pressure. If you look at the talk page of that article you will see that your opinions are being given much more consideration here, they just have not convinced the community. Like I have said a few times before, we given plenty of credence to those that wish to provide information it is when someone tries to suppress it that we object. It is not about who you are, it is about what you are trying to do. We don't like relevant and encyclopedic content being suppressed due to outside concerns, that whole neutrality thing again. Pointing out areas where we have failed to accomplish this 100% in no way justifies further failure. Chillum 22:12, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- Well, there is no better candidate for the starting image of the Muhammad page than Muhammad himself...and yet he isn't in the lead. That's because there is a balance on that article between showing relevent images and taking into account the sensitivities of other editors. Same goes for the article about Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahai faith. The man's picture is only in the section devoted to the picture: [61]. Wikipedia:What is consensus? clearly states "Consensus is not what everyone agrees to, nor is it the preference of the majority. Consensus results in the best solution that the group can achieve at the time". Such a balance, achieved on the religious articles, seems to be lacking on this article. As for suppression, information not in the front of the article is no more "suppressed" than is the sports section of the newpaper because it's not in the front. Nor is it any more "supressed" than on the Muhammad article (although it definitely seems supressed on the Islam article). As for "outside concerns" it ceases being an outside concern when an editor is involved here. I am not an outsider, nor are the other 1/3 of involved editors who aren't pushing for the image in the lead. We are part of the wikipedia community and our views ought to be taken into account in the article, not just in the discussion page. Faustian (talk) 23:26, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- Actually the calligraphy is a better candidate. File:Muhammad callig.gif is very representative of how Muhammad has been portrayed throughout the centuries. I learned this while participating in the lengthly debates. The debate the lead to using calligraphy as the first image was one of the few debates at that article that was based on encyclopedic merit. I for one did not know that calligraphy was one of the most common representations of Muhammad throughout history until I read the article either. The lead image is very informative. Chillum 01:14, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Interesting. It's unfortunate that the reader will continue to be misled that the test is about more than just the inkblot by the current placement on this article. Now what do you make of the fact that there is not single image of Muhammad at all in the Islam article? Or that Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahai faith, is not in the lead of the article about him as a person? So it seems that we do indeed have precedents of taking editors' opinions into account, although it's nice that in the case of Muhammad representation matches religious concerns..Faustian (talk) 02:07, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Moreover, just as the calligraphy represents how Mohammad has been represented throughout the centuries, so the black-and-white image represents how the Rorschach is most often portrayed:[62]. Your argument would seem to support placing the black and white unshahded version in the lead, with the real version in the testmaterials or methods section.Faustian (talk) 14:16, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you very much, Chillum, for trying to provide some answers regarding how much impact expert opinion had in these discussions. I admire you for your willingness to get involved in a post-mortem analysis that could even have some impact on Wikipedia policy, rather than just walking away after consensus was declared. For those who would argue that this is not the venue for such analysis, Wikipedia policy is built one step at a time, beginning with individual articles. And it wouldn't make a lot of sense to conduct this analysis on a page that has nothing to do with this article. I realize that policy is not made on this talk page, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't take a look at the policies that were at play in this article on this talk page.
- I have a couple more questions (and I'm not trying to put Chillum on the spot; anyone can try to answer these questions): (1) In this particular article, if "we work based on the weight of their [experts'] argument", how much weight did experts' arguments have regarding image placement? Was that done by assigning everyone's "weight" in the argument to be equal, so that (hypothetically) if two experts express one opinion and 48 non-experts express an opposing opinion, the "weight" for the experts is 4%? If expert opinion, on the other hand, is given more weight based on the fact that experts have more information at their disposal and can cite it here, how was the weight recalculated taking that into consideration? And following up on Martinevans123's comments: (2) Was there any citation to reliable sources (presumably experts) to counter the well-sourced citations from an expert that prior exposure to the Rorschach image can possibly result in test invalidity and thereby possibly result in harm? Or similarly, was there any citation to a reliable source that the image should be placed at the top of the page? I'm not asking that the entire debate be rehashed here, just some statement as to how much reliable sourcing was done in opposition to the experts' arguments that the image should not be at the top of the page. Thanks. Ward3001 (talk) 17:30, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
- A:nd I'm not trying to put anyone on the spot either, but I'd sill like to know who are the ".. so many groups that want one tidbit of information suppressed in one way or another.." and how exactly are they relevant to this article? Furthermore, if we are to look to other articles for some parallel in the use of controversial images, should this article be looked at as `science' or as 'religion' or as something in between - or should this question be irrelevant? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:25, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- I did give examples but I will expand on them, religious folks that don't want images of Muhammad, phone physics that don't want cold reading explained, creationist that don't want the age of the Earth in the article, people who don't want shameful acts of their country or group documented, people who don't want it said that a particular sports player was caught doing steroids, and of course medical professionals(enthusiasts?) that don't want publicly available test material posted. Let me know if you want me to expand on these examples more, there are piles of such cases. The groups and their reasoning are rather varied but the end result is the same, neutrality prevents us from giving undue value to their opinion. While we value all of these groups for the information they can provide for us, we don't value their attempts at suppressing information.
- Regarding science vs religion, I would say we use both as a source of information but neither as an authority on what to not post. For example I am sure there are plenty of studies that scientifically demonstrate that viewing violent or gruesome images can be damaging to the mind, however if you look up genocide or holocaust(and yes victims, bystanders, deniers, and supporters have asked us to take these down) you still see violent and gruesome images. We don't take down these images because studies show they may be harmful because we respect that the person looking up the topic is trying to be informed in the subject. Chillum 21:59, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- You have evidence that viewing wikipedia images can be "damaging to the mind"? Which studies are they? I was actually asking quite directly - "should the Rorschach test be viewed as science or religion, or should we not ask?". Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:23, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- Hmm, piles, eh? Looks to me more like six (including this one)? I was expecting something more like real examples of actual wikipedia articles? But maybe you should try and answer Ward's questions first? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:15, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- I am not sure what you are saying. I did offer to find more examples if you wanted, are you saying that is what you want? Ward has asked so many questions I don't know which one you refer to. Chillum 22:17, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- I am saying this: "please show us where so many groups that want one tidbit of information suppressed in one way or another have affected the use of images in actual wikipedia articles and then show us how these examples are relevant to this article". Martinevans123 (talk) 11:16, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Oh I think I know the question you are referring to, hold on a moment I will attempt to address it. Chillum 22:20, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- Regarding Ward's question about sources for showing the image. Would you like a reliable source that shows the inkblot in question is really part of the test? I did not know that was in dispute(rather this point seems to be conceded based on the nature of the arguments being presented). That is really all the sourcing that we need to include content, just enough to verify it. We don't need sources to justify it, just enough to show the independent reliable sources verify what we are presenting. If you are asking for Wikipedia to justify showing accurate relevant information, then the answer is a simple no. Our only justification is that we are trying to inform on the topic people have come here to learn about. Chillum 22:21, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- I also want to say that I am very passionate about certain topics that are either very personal to me, related to my professional career or both. I intentionally avoid editing those article to avoid damaging neutrality. You should ask yourself, are you presenting these arguments in the best interest of Wikipedia's goals or are you presenting them because it is in the best interest of something else? No need to answer here, just ask yourself and answer yourself. If advancing outside interests is more important to a person than advancing the aims of Wikipedia, then that is a conflict of interest. Chillum 22:25, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- I was asking you questions about this article and its contents, based on your comments above. I'll ask myself about my passions, and give myself a pat on the back, or not, later. But if I don't answer myself, I don't promise not to tell you. Thanks Martinevans123 (talk) 22:33, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- If the question is "should the Rorschach test be viewed as science or religion, or should we not ask?", then I would say we should ask if it is relevant to the article(not sure that it is, perhaps in the criticism section), if it is relevant we should determine which one it is based on reliable sources. Regardless of the answer we arrive at we should not let either religion or science(nor both or neither) tell us what not to post when the very same sources confirm it is accurate and relevant. The idea is to document these sources, not to obey them. Sources inform us and verify our content, they don't dictate it. Chillum 22:38, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, Chillum, I have never disputed that inkblots are a part of the test. I happen to disagree that we only need to demonstrate that an inkblot is part of the test to justify including an image of a Rorschach inkblok. If that was the case, this entire two-year debate could have been resolved in a matter of minutes. You have not really responded to my latest questions, but as I said, I'm not trying to put you on the spot. I just hope someone will attempt to answer them.
- Regarding Chillum's comments about avoiding articles about which we are passionate, there is a substantial difference between passion about a subject and having expertise in a subject, although the two certainly can co-exist. I would not expect a physician Wikipedian to avoid editing medical articles simply because he/she is passionate about the subject. That would be a loss for Wikipedia, which is severely deficient in experts for many reasons that can be seen on this talk page. As I have stated previously, there is no reason a psychologist, physician, or other practitioner should not trying to bring his/her influence to bear on an article that has the potential to cause damage to health or mental health. And in the current debate, no psychologist has suggested violating any Wikipedia policy, only that there are considerations in addition to Wikipedia policy. Ward3001 (talk) 22:42, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
- I never said that simply being passionate about something should preclude you. I said "If advancing outside interests is more important to a person than advancing the aims of Wikipedia, then that is a conflict of interest". If you disagree with this you can read the second paragraph of WP:COI(the part written in bold).
- WP:NOTCENSORED is policy, and WP:NPOV is policy. What you are suggesting is in violation of policy, I don't think you have actually violated policy as you have only insisted through discussion and not edit warring. Thank you.
- You can deny and challenge the state of the consensus all you want, but the fact remains that the only people who disagree that there is a consensus are those who did not get their way. That is including the numerous independent reviewers of the consensus. We have stopped arguing about the relevant point and moved into some meta debate about what is fair.
- Xeno went out of his way to contact everyone involved in the debate to confirm their opinions, he posted it at a neutral venue for independent review. The people have spoken, and this has been confirmed by the people. Perhaps it is time to put the stick down, at least for a little while? Chillum 01:18, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Respectfully Chillum, but you are unequivocally wrong that any psychologist in this discussion has advocated violation of policy. It has been discussed in great detail that placement of the image is not censorship, and advocating placement of the image lower on the page is not any more POV than advocating placement at the top. There is no Wikipedia policy that states that where an image is placed violates NPOV. There are many reasons that have been presented to refute the perspectives of psychologists' on this talk page, but censorship and NPOV are the weakest of all of them. That is not to disparage your opinions about image placement, but it is a strong objection to your interpretation of policy. But, as I've said earlier, thank you for your willingness to continue discussing this matter. By the way, there is no "stick" up. I'm simply seeking explanations of how much weight expert opinion was given in this matter. Ward3001 (talk) 02:01, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
- Regarding consensus, let's go over the actual evidence. Xeno's collossal methodical effort has shown us what most people prefer. We do yet have evidence that there is consensus, unless consensus is simply a vote. Moreover, so far only nine of the 40 editors who expressed a preference for the image in the lead, when asked to clarify their positions, have confirmed that they are opposed to any compromise: [63]. Unless they clarify their positions, we have no idea whether the other ones who expressed wanting the image shown really insist that it must be in the lead and no place else. The number who insist on it being in the lead and no place else is still smaller than the 20 who have stated that they support some sort of compromise. So we know what most people prefer, but we don't know where they stand on the issue of compromise. Indeed, so far at least, it seems that the ones firmly against compromise are outnumbered, 9 to 20, by those seeking some form of limitation.Faustian (talk) 02:07, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
Preference Versus Compromise Regarding the Image: The Evidence
Thanks to Xeno's excellent work we know that 20 editors would like to suppress the image or to make a compromise involving image placement. We know that 40 prefer to have the image unhidden:[64]. A problem with this is that while the position of 20 editors in the first group was clear ("Don't show the image", "hide the image", "place the image in the test materials section for compromise") and requires no clarification that of the 40 is not clear as some of them argued not against placing the image in the test materials section but against hiding it, or against using a fake image. A person who argued against using a fake image or hiding the image canot be assumed to be automatically opposed to placing the unhidden real image anywhere other than in the lead. A question arose as to how many of the latter 40 would refuse to compromise with respect to image placement. For example, one of the 40 stated " "Wikipedia is not censored, which is a policy and you are trying to censor Wikipedia. See censorship: "Censorship is defined as the removal and withholding of information from the public by a controlling group or body". How exactly have I missed the point?" Clearly, this user did not want the image hidden. This user did not offer an opinion, however, on where he wanted the image to be or whether he insisted on it being in the lead and no place else. So his opinion cannot be automatically assumed to mean that he is opposed to having an unhidden image in the test materials sections. He just said he didn't want it hidden.
In order to address this question, on June 1st xeno asked the editors to clarify their positions. At the present time, more than a week later, only 9 of the 40 who in various ways oppsed hiding or suppressing the image have clarified that they insist that the image be in the lead and no place else. This effectively means that they are a minority, since 14 have exressed prefering some sort of suppression and 6 have supported a compromise.Faustian (talk) 14:16, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
- Their silence is perhaps telling - but if you wish to give them an additional ping, please feel free. I've made some comments at the recently filed RFC, I'm going to reproduce them here as I believe it is the last I have to say on the matter, and wish to hand this off to another uninvolved admin for transparency -
- I've listed 14 editors who feel that the image should be suppressed however 5 of those have not edited in over a year and have very short editing histories. You've then got 6 editors who are acceding to compromise for the sake of compromise, half of those haven't edited in at least a year.
- Meanwhile, of the 41 editors who disagree with suppression (not counting those who weighed in at the AN thread), only 8 meet the same metric of inactivity.
- So, using these numbers, you have 9+3 vs 33 plus those who weighed in at the AN thread which bring the numbers closer to 75% against suppression of the image. I feel also that wide community support is against suppression of images in general, i.e. I maintain that the community's default position is that the most relevant image available ought appear in the lead of the article. As such, my opinion is that the bar at which we should make an editorial decision counter to the default is higher than 1/4 or 1/3 in favour.
- At some point minority viewpoints will necessarily have to realize that they have not convinced the majority of Wikipedia editors of their point of view, especially when they are diametrically opposed.
- I feel that I've said all I have to say on the matter. At this point, I'm going to withdraw (however feel free to make any additional clarification requests as necessary). When the RFC has run its course, if an uninvolved admin doesn't show up to make a call, please seek one at WP:AN to determine if the decision reached in my consensus review should be revisited based on what follows. –xenotalk 14:26, 9 June 2009 (UTC)