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* - From the lede - self declared/accepted/admitted - enough in my opinion to satisfy [[WP:BLPCAT]] - Polanski was arrested for the sexual abuse of a 13-year-old girl and '''pleaded guilty to the charge of unlawful sex with a minor,''' - [[User:Off2riorob|Off2riorob]] ([[User talk:Off2riorob|talk]]) 23:36, 15 September 2011 (UTC) |
* - From the lede - self declared/accepted/admitted - enough in my opinion to satisfy [[WP:BLPCAT]] - Polanski was arrested for the sexual abuse of a 13-year-old girl and '''pleaded guilty to the charge of unlawful sex with a minor,''' - [[User:Off2riorob|Off2riorob]] ([[User talk:Off2riorob|talk]]) 23:36, 15 September 2011 (UTC) |
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**Yes, he pled guilty to that crime, which technically is statutory rape, and statutory rapists are rapists, are they not? Would a "child molester" category also violate BLP because it doesn't exactly match up to Polanski's self description of his crime? [[User:Andrewlp1991|Andrewlp1991]] ([[User talk:Andrewlp1991|talk]]) 23:38, 15 September 2011 (UTC) |
**Yes, he pled guilty to that crime, which technically is statutory rape, and statutory rapists are rapists, are they not? Would a "child molester" category also violate BLP because it doesn't exactly match up to Polanski's self description of his crime? [[User:Andrewlp1991|Andrewlp1991]] ([[User talk:Andrewlp1991|talk]]) 23:38, 15 September 2011 (UTC) |
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:::Please take care to not violate BLP on this talkpage - This has been well hashed out massively - I suggest if you were not involved in the prior discussions please read the archives Personally I see your comment about child molester as close to a violation itself. Its hair splitting personal opinion, stat rape is fine in this case. At least that was the previous consensus. Rapist suggests the person did not say yes, whereas in this case is was not a bit like that. [[User:Off2riorob|Off2riorob]] ([[User talk:Off2riorob|talk]]) 23:42, 15 September 2011 (UTC) |
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::::You violate the rules yourself aren't you? Are you claiming his victim said yes? He admitted to providing her with a recreational sedative and alcohol, and having sex with her, she too worn down and intimidated to fight back. [[User:Dream Focus | '''<span style="color:blue">D</span><span style="color:green">r</span><span style="color:red">e</span><span style="color:orange">a</span><span style="color:purple">m</span> <span style="color:blue">Focus</span>''']] 00:51, 16 September 2011 (UTC) |
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A question of weight
The article mentions Samantha Geimer's support of Polanski, but does not mention the possibility of her having a financial motive for doing so (Roman Polanski sexual abuse case does cover it somewhat). Should both be mentioned? Or perhaps neither? Guy Macon (talk) 13:50, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
- OK, I am removing the information on the grounds that mentioning Geimer's support of Polanski without mentioning the very real possibility of an out of court settlement that constrains here actions violetes WP:NPOV. Guy Macon (talk) 00:10, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- Mentioning the "possible" is a form of editorial speculation, and not appropriate. Please find an outside source for that. Thanks. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 02:18, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- I wasn't trying to introduce speculation, which of course would not be appropriate. There are reliable outside sources cited in Roman Polanski sexual abuse case establishing that the case was settled out of court in 1993, http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/536312/settlement establishes that such a settlement is a binding contract, and http://www.google.com/search?secret+settlement shows many examples establishing that the terms of such settlements are often confidential with one or both parties constrained regarding what they are allowed to say after the settlement. It is a violation of WP:NPOV to cite a statement that is by someone who may be contractually obligated to say / not say certain things which are likely to have a major effect on the speaker's finances as if it was a statement by someone who could speak freely.
- if someone wants to write a paragraph about Geimer's post-trial comments that has a NPOV they are free to do so, but I think removing the paragraph fixed the problem without detracting from the article. Anyone who disagrees is free to write a suitable paragraph, but the paragraph I deleted has a serious POV problem. Roman Polanski sexual abuse case covers the same material without any obvious POV problems, and would be a good starting place for writing such a NPOV paragraph. Guy Macon (talk) 13:12, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- Your "speculations" are essentially an example of synthesis, and likewise inappropriate here. In any case, FYI, in the U.S. at least, the kind of contract you're implying is referred to as "illegal" and unenforceable. Not only does it violate constitutional rights of free speech, but would also be a form of bribery. My hunch is that neither his or her attorneys would have remotely considered it. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 18:25, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- Slandering the victim with false light accusations isn't acceptable. He admitted to giving her alcohol, providing her with a sedative, and having sex with her, and that he knew she was 13 years old. Any civil suit for damages is not relevant in any way. Dream Focus 22:51, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
- I agree that the civil suit is not relevant, unless her post-lawsuit statements are included in the article, in which case it violates NPOV to treat them the same way one would treat the statements of someone who could speak freely. That's why I deleted the NPOV statement. Now that I think about it, that statement is irrelevant for another reason; a 13 year old girl - even if not impaired by drugs and alcohol - cannot give consent to sexual intercourse. Nor is her later opinion as an adult - even if she has no contractual obligations or financial motive to not say certain things - relevant. Polanski's guilt is based upon his admitted actions, not the opinion of his victim. I stand by my deletion. the statement violated NPOV.
- BTW, False light does not apply to Samantha Geimer. False light concerns non-public figure's right to privacy. Geimer has appeared is a documentary and given interviews to CNN and People Magazine, thus making herself a limited purpose public figure. Your portraying my good-faith attempts to treat this subject according to WP:NPOV as "slandering the victim" is a violation of WP:AFG. Please don't do it again. Guy Macon (talk) 00:47, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- So violating WP:RS, WP:OR, and WP:Synth rules aren't enough to convince you of the problem. Now you insist on censoring her statements and eliminating her right to privacy! Are you aware that you're in the process of doing exactly what you "speculate" may have been illegally done through a secret document? I'm not sure the National Enquirer would touch this!-- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikiwatcher1 (talk • contribs)
- Two different things here. What's in the article, is fine. Mentioning anything that would even hint someone made the accusations for financial reasons, is not. She may have spoken out against the case as an adult, long after it happened, because he paid her, but we can't know. We need to be careful that we don't quote her out of context, or use her comments out of their proper context. Dream Focus 01:09, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- What part of "Geimer has appeared is a documentary and given interviews to CNN and People Magazine, thus making herself a limited purpose public figure. Public figures do not have a right to privacy" are you disputing? Are you claiming that she didn't do those interviews? Are you claiming that doing the interviews did not make her a public figure? Are you claiming that public figures have a right to privacy? Please be specific about the basis of your assertion. Guy Macon (talk)
- Read what I said above. Different things here. No problems with what's in the article now. I was saying that suggesting she accused him of rape just to get money from him would be false light. Dream Focus 02:55, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- What part of "Geimer has appeared is a documentary and given interviews to CNN and People Magazine, thus making herself a limited purpose public figure. Public figures do not have a right to privacy" are you disputing? Are you claiming that she didn't do those interviews? Are you claiming that doing the interviews did not make her a public figure? Are you claiming that public figures have a right to privacy? Please be specific about the basis of your assertion. Guy Macon (talk)
- In addition, the basis of your assumption that just because she, or any other private individual, allows themselves to be interviewed, they automatically become a "public figure" is wrong. The term "public figures" refers to those who's profession depends on or requires public appearances, ie. movie stars, athletes, celebrities, or politicians. Otherwise, any crime victim talking to the press would lose their right of privacy. I don't think that's the intent of the law. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 03:01, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- Where did I suggest that she accused him of rape just to get money? I suggested quite the opposite; that it is possible that she is now contractually prevented from accusing him of rape or anything else. (Please note the difference between suggesting that "it is possible that she is" and suggesting that "she is.") Even that, of course, is pure speculation that should not be in Wikipedia, so my suggestion for the article is to either [A] (my second choice) leave in her post-lawsuit statements of support along with a NPOV-worded notice that she is bound by a contractual obligation the details of which have not been released to the public (we do know that the contract exists, just not what was agreed to) or [B] (my first choice) remove her post-lawsuit statements of support.
- If you wish to retain her post-lawsuit statements of support, especially without any mention of the contract she is bound by, please explain what, exactly, they add to the article other than generating sympathy for Roman Polanski or minimizing the crime he admitted to.
- As for public figures and the right to privacy, you are wrong. See Public figure. A crime victim who talks to the press is, according to Public figure. a limited purpose public figure. In other words, Samantha Geimer only has a right to privacy in areas where she has not thrust herself to the forefront of a public controversy in order to influence the resolution of the issues involved. If you wish to use your alternative and incorrect definition of public figure, feel free to attempt to gain consensus to edit Public figure, but until you do, we will use the definition found in Public figure, not your alternative "person who's profession depends on or requires public appearances" definition. Guy Macon (talk) 15:15, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- The burden is on you, not others, to back up your personal opinions. There are at least four so far just based on your last comments:
- 1.) Show that her public comments must be biased due to a secret promise, that so far only you think exists; 2.) Support that her public statements should be censored, assuming the above, and creates "sympathy" for Polanski; 3.) Cite reliable sources that state she has become a "limited purpose public figure;" 4.) and, that she has "thrust herself" into the middle of a public controversy (despite her stating clearly that her "privacy" was recklessly invaded by the press.) Otherwise your comments are all personal speculations and don't seem to belong anywhere in the article. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 18:31, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
- If you wish to respond to what I actually wrote, I suggest directly quoting it rather than attempting to paraphrase it into a 'straw man. The above does not accurately depict what I wrote and verges on putting words in my mouth.
- Privacy recklessly invaded by the press. Giving interviews to PEOPLE magazine. Pick one. You can't have both.
- When someone questions why material is in a Wikipedia article, the correct response is to provide the rationale, not to attempt to place the burden of proof on the one asking the question to prove that it does not belong. So again I ask, why is Samantha Geimer's support of Polanski there? Exactly what purpose does it serve? Please be specific and please focus on the question asked rather than criticizing the question.
- Also, please take care. You may be on the verge of violating WP:CIVIL and / or WP:OWNERSHIP. The standard of behavior that is expected of all Wikipedia editors is that we should treat each other with consideration and respect. In order to keep the focus on improving the encyclopedia and to help maintain a pleasant editing environment, Wikipedia editors should behave politely, calmly and reasonably, even during heated debates. Guy Macon (talk) 14:51, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
The question of Reliable sources
This is what you wrote at the beginning of the section:
- "OK, I am removing the information on the grounds that mentioning Geimer's support of Polanski without mentioning the very real possibility of an out of court settlement that constrains her actions violates WP:NPOV."
I wrote that your "speculation" may violate WP:RS, WP:OR, and WP:Synth, and were not acceptable rationales, so "removing" her statements was likewise unacceptable. Among your replies above (see para: "What part of "Geimer . . "), you simply responded with a bombardment of questions, i.e. "Are you claiming. . . ?; "Are you claiming. . . ?; "Are you claiming. . . ? "Please be specific . . ."
It seems that dismissing the guidelines and turning a Talk page into a courtroom drama is not a great example of "behaving politely, calmly and reasonably." If you want to fix this infinite loop discussion, you can. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 18:02, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- Again I ask, why is Samantha Geimer's support of Polanski there? Exactly what purpose does it serve? Guy Macon (talk) 22:22, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- Calling it "support of Polanski" is a personal interpretation of her comments. Her point was to "blame the media, reporters, the court, and the judge . . ." for doing her more damage, in comparison to Polanski. She obviously has a right to compare that, and her interview is relevant to the section. BTW, that section has about 12 other citations. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 23:28, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
- Again I ask (slightly modified as per your comment above), why are Samantha Geimer's words there? Exactly what purpose do they serve? Your opinion that "it is relevant" is interesting, but unless you have a reliable source establishing same, you will have to explain your reasoning rather than simply asserting that your opinion is correct. So please explain in what way her "blame[ing] the media, reporters, the court, and the judge for doing her more damage" is relevant to an article about Roman Polanski? Please note that Wikipedia already has a page titled Roman Polanski sexual abuse case with several quotes from Samantha Geimer (but not this one) and which appears to present the material in a NPOV fashion. Roman Polanski sexual abuse case rightly covers all the major players in that case. Roman Polanski should be about Roman Polanski, and any material about Samantha Geimer should be limited to her interactions with Roman Polanski. Her interactions with the press are irrelevant in an an article about Roman Polanski. Guy Macon (talk) 01:33, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Much of the earlier section of the article discusses Geimer, the crime, the judge, the attorneys, and the media. It's logical to include the victim's comments and perspective, when available, in relation to those things. They add context to the events. Her comments somewhat relate to Polanski's rationale for leaving the U.S., along with the prosecuting attorney's quoted comment that "it was going to be a real circus," and "I'm not surprised that Polanski left under those circumstances." Her impressions, especially as the victim, are relevant and valuable. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 02:21, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for answering the question. I disagree, so according to the guidelines concerning no consensus, it stays in the form it was in before editors disagreed. If you change your mind or other editors appear and disagree with you, please let me know. Now taking this off my watch list. Guy Macon (talk) 02:30, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Much of the earlier section of the article discusses Geimer, the crime, the judge, the attorneys, and the media. It's logical to include the victim's comments and perspective, when available, in relation to those things. They add context to the events. Her comments somewhat relate to Polanski's rationale for leaving the U.S., along with the prosecuting attorney's quoted comment that "it was going to be a real circus," and "I'm not surprised that Polanski left under those circumstances." Her impressions, especially as the victim, are relevant and valuable. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 02:21, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- Again I ask (slightly modified as per your comment above), why are Samantha Geimer's words there? Exactly what purpose do they serve? Your opinion that "it is relevant" is interesting, but unless you have a reliable source establishing same, you will have to explain your reasoning rather than simply asserting that your opinion is correct. So please explain in what way her "blame[ing] the media, reporters, the court, and the judge for doing her more damage" is relevant to an article about Roman Polanski? Please note that Wikipedia already has a page titled Roman Polanski sexual abuse case with several quotes from Samantha Geimer (but not this one) and which appears to present the material in a NPOV fashion. Roman Polanski sexual abuse case rightly covers all the major players in that case. Roman Polanski should be about Roman Polanski, and any material about Samantha Geimer should be limited to her interactions with Roman Polanski. Her interactions with the press are irrelevant in an an article about Roman Polanski. Guy Macon (talk) 01:33, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- I say remove the section for a different reason. [1] That isn't about Roman Polanski but is about the case and the victim. It should be in the Roman Polanski sexual abuse case, not here. Dream Focus 07:40, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- The entire section is called "Sexual assault case," however.--Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 17:55, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
- I have added back in a note about the settlement. This was originally based on text written by Tombaker321 to establish consensus (see Talk:Roman_Polanski/Archive_3#Gross_omission_of_civil_case_and_outcome). I then modified it and inserted it into the article way back in October 2009. Further changes were made in the course of normal editing.
- Later, Wikiwatcher1 reopened the issue by removing all mention of the settlement; the edit calls it a "trim", which I think is an understatement. I don't think there was consensus to remove this verifiable (cited and a matter of public record) information, which is clearly connected to the events in question. Further, I do not agree that there is any BLP issue here as long as we carefully stick to verifiable facts without spinning (e.g. speculating on her motives). The text I am adding back does not draw any connection between the settlement and her comments, as that would be synthesis. I did not add additional information about her forgiveness of Polanski (there is already the "way more damage" quote). Note that I will also ping Guy, as he requested. Superm401 - Talk 04:51, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- Again I say the Roman Polanski page should be about Roman Polanski, and any material about Samantha Geimer should be limited to her interactions with Roman Polanski. Her interactions with the press are totally irrelevant in an an article about Roman Polanski. If the consensus is to keep this totally irrelevant material in the article, suppressing the fact that he paid her hundreds of thousands of dollars - which was one of her interactions with him - seems to be a blatant violation of WP:NPOV. Guy Macon (talk) 09:06, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- Guy, as I explained, I think the original consensus was to have both (her forgiveness/support of Polanski, and the monetary settlement). Wikiwatcher1's removal of the settlement (see link above) attempted to alter this. I've added the settlement back, so both are now covered. Superm401 - Talk 19:02, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think that the consensus at Talk:Roman_Polanski/Archive_3#Gross_omission_of_civil_case_and_outcome is what you say it is. The consensus clearly rejected having her statement with no mention of the settlement (with good reason!), but I don't see a consensus against ommitting both or against keeping the info about the settlement while deleting her statements. Nobodu has addressed my argument. I say the Roman Polanski page should be about Roman Polanski, and any material about Samantha Geimer should be limited to her interactions with Roman Polanski. Does anyone have a reason why we should include material that is not about Roman Polanski? I say that her post-trial opinions about the media, reporters, the court, and the judge are totally irrelevant in an an article about Roman Polanski. There are a wide variety of reliably sourced examples of various people giving their opinion about the way the the media, reporters, the court, and the judge handled the Polanski case, yet we don't include those opinions in the article. Can anyone explain why we should give weight to this one opinion and not the others? If Samantha Geimer says something about her personal experience, that is relevant. Her opinion about the media and the court is completely irrelevant and should be removed. Guy Macon (talk) 20:52, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- The key phrase you wrote, "Again I say," implies this is has become an infinite loop. Unless you can add some new details, then the responses earlier are still logical.--Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 22:27, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- I fail to see the logic behind arbitrarily allowing some material in the Roman Polanski page that isn't about Roman Polanski, and arbitrarily excluding other material in the Roman Polanski page that isn't about Roman Polanski. It seems more logical to me to have the Roman Polanski page be about Roman Polanski. My specific questions above (which had not been asked before) were an attempt to get you to explain your logic. Given your refusal to engage in discussion on the matter, I will come to my own conclusions as to why you take the positions you take, and I will watch to see if consensus supports them. Guy Macon (talk) 00:36, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- The page at the time of that discussion already had her statements. The consensus was to go from only statements to statements + settlement (in a form similar to Tombaker321's suggestion). I agree only material relevant to Roman Polanski should be included. I firmly believe that both the settlement with Polanski and (some of) her statements about Polanski are relevant, and I think the consensus supports this. No one then suggested having neither or only the settlement. I don't think that can be justified, since this information is relevant and verifiable. It is reasonable to discuss exactly which of her statements to include. Superm401 - Talk 01:40, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
- User:Tombaker321 was blocked indefinitely over eighteen months ago, you can see comments on his/her talkpage that the user "seems to have edited Wikipedia primarily for the single purpose of adding derogatory content about the life of Roman Polanski - any position of the user as regards content should clearly be avoided. Off2riorob (talk) 21:43, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
- The page at the time of that discussion already had her statements. The consensus was to go from only statements to statements + settlement (in a form similar to Tombaker321's suggestion). I agree only material relevant to Roman Polanski should be included. I firmly believe that both the settlement with Polanski and (some of) her statements about Polanski are relevant, and I think the consensus supports this. No one then suggested having neither or only the settlement. I don't think that can be justified, since this information is relevant and verifiable. It is reasonable to discuss exactly which of her statements to include. Superm401 - Talk 01:40, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
- I fail to see the logic behind arbitrarily allowing some material in the Roman Polanski page that isn't about Roman Polanski, and arbitrarily excluding other material in the Roman Polanski page that isn't about Roman Polanski. It seems more logical to me to have the Roman Polanski page be about Roman Polanski. My specific questions above (which had not been asked before) were an attempt to get you to explain your logic. Given your refusal to engage in discussion on the matter, I will come to my own conclusions as to why you take the positions you take, and I will watch to see if consensus supports them. Guy Macon (talk) 00:36, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
Category dispute
I changed the category from "Statutory Rapists" to simply "Rapists". Wiki-Watcher-One changed it back, explaining that to so classify violates the Neutral Point of View Principle and is a case of me using Wikipedia to publishing a piece of my own take on the facts, as opposed to the straight facts.
Whether a person belongs to this or that category of criminal or not is a matter of fact, not point of view or opinion. These things are decided by the legal system and reported to us in reliable sources. In this case, according to the NYT, the legal authorities describe a rape. See here: [2].
Although the details are not present in this article, I will repeat what it says. He gave her Quaaludes and alchohol but she was still awake and fighting. He overpowerd and raped her vaginally and anally, while she protested. What do you call that, regardless of her age? Technically, by definition, the term for such an event is a "rape".
This is not rape because of some local statute that sets the age of consent to this or that legal birthday, as is the definition of the term statutory rape. This would be a rape no matter her age. It is possible to rape a minor. The defintion of the word "rape" does not exclude the victim being of legal age. That's a statement of fact, of simple definition. These are not just my opinions or points of view. Chrisrus (talk) 03:51, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- As the rationale summary stated, "what anyone feels he "deserves" is OR with a POV. This is not a courtroom. WP guidelines are pretty clear. No one has a problem with your talk page comments, That's a statement of fact, of simple definition. These are just my opinions or points of view. But they don't justify edits. Read the guidelines to understand why. Note that the crime definition is based on California laws, not your definition. In some other places the penalties are worse; in other places it's not even a crime. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 04:29, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry, I meant NOT. I've fixed it. My point of view does not matter. By definition, the described event is a rape. This is not a courtroom. We report what the courtroom found. They found a rape, and the NYT reported it, so into the category he goes along with all the others. Chrisrus (talk) 04:44, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- Your unwillingness to go by guidelines is unfortunate. Any more such POV edits will be treated as vandalism. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 04:49, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- If I am in violation of any guideline for putting him in the Rapists category, why are you not equally guilty of the same violation for editing the article to place him in the Statutory Rapist category? What's the difference, in terms of the quideline? How is this article different from every other article in the rapist category? The fact that his victim was a minor? The fact that he fled the judge? These things don't mean one isn't a rapist. If the major press tells us that someone has been found to have done these things by the legal authorities, he is supposed to go in this category, with no instruction to exempt rapists of thirteen year olds. The guidelines don't say only adults can be victims of rape. And besides, if I am in violation of a guideline, you (and everyone else who adds a person to a criminal category) must also be, because you have added him to the statutory rape category twice now when you reverted me. So give some coherent reason that he should be in the statutory category but not in the simple rapist category or accuse yourself of the same vandalism. Chrisrus (talk) 05:37, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, and also, accusing someone of vandalism in this kind of situation is a violation of the WP:Assume Good Faith guideline, so don't do it. Vandals are not trying to improve Wikipedia for the user, and with this edit I am. Chrisrus (talk) 05:37, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- The California laws are mentioned in numerous cites about this issue in the article. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 06:04, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- Chrisrus is entirely correct. Whether or not his edit comments were appropriate is another matter which should be pursued on his talk page, not here.
- Do you dispute that he gave her Quaaludes and Alcohol? Do you dispute that he used force and/or the threat of force to have vaginal and anal sex with her? Do you dispute that statutory rape is defined as sex that would be legal if done after the age of consent? Are you seriously claiming that she was a willing sexual partner? Guy Macon (talk) 09:18, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- My understanding is that he did forcibly rape her (not just statutory rape), but the rape charge was dropped as part of a plea bargain. Category:Rapists says, "This category consists of individuals who have been convicted of rape in a court of law as well as those who are considered by most historians to have committed the crime." The first does not seem to be true, but the second may be. Superm401 - Talk 01:46, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks! The first qualification would seem to exclude Rapists or Statutory Rapists as a category (IIRC he was convicted of the lesser charge of Sexual Assault on a plea bargain.) I am open to arguments as to whether Polanski meets the second qualification. We all need to put aside personal feelings and to be scrupulously fair, neither exaggerating nor minimizing his crime. Guy Macon (talk) 08:17, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
- My understanding is that he did forcibly rape her (not just statutory rape), but the rape charge was dropped as part of a plea bargain. Category:Rapists says, "This category consists of individuals who have been convicted of rape in a court of law as well as those who are considered by most historians to have committed the crime." The first does not seem to be true, but the second may be. Superm401 - Talk 01:46, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
- Do you dispute that he gave her Quaaludes and Alcohol? Do you dispute that he used force and/or the threat of force to have vaginal and anal sex with her? Do you dispute that statutory rape is defined as sex that would be legal if done after the age of consent? Are you seriously claiming that she was a willing sexual partner? Guy Macon (talk) 09:18, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
Alright then. If that's the case, we can't put him in the category "Statutory Rapists" for the very same reasons as were given to refuse the category "Rapists". We'd have to put him in the category of "People who committed sexual assalt" or some such. What do we call such people, "sexual assaulters"? If "rapists" does not stand, then "statutory rapists" does not stand either. What do you call a person who sexually assults someone in the manner described by the court and reported by the NYT? "Vaginal/anal penitrative sexual assaulters with who used Quaaludes and violence to overcome the unwilling struggling yelling for help victim? Too bad there's not a common English term for such a "sexual assaulter". Is "assaulter" even a word? But "statutory rapist" is not factually correct because it wasn't rape just because she was underage and that's what "statutory rape" means, so we have no justification whatsover for the category "Statutory Rapists". Chrisrus (talk) 07:34, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
- Statutory rape is a form of rape by all definitions. The victim could not give consent, and if consent is not given, that is the definition of rape. He was convinced of rape, so should be in the category for rapists. Dream Focus 07:41, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed. "Category:Rapists" is correct. Chrisrus (talk) 07:45, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
- We had a lengthy discussion wwith a large number of editors and the outcome was support for Stat rapist - Even Statutory rapists had recently (May 15) been removed in this diff by User:Razum2010 - I have replaced it, its long time stable from a previous consensus after lengthy dispute and discussion - He pled guilty to unlawful sex with a minor - the closest cat we have to that is Statutory rapist. Off2riorob (talk) 10:01, 5 June 2011 (UTC)Off2riorob (talk) 09:29, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
- That makes no sense. Instead of arguing my point again, I'd like to let Ed Koch make it for me. Here it is, please click: | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bup8V25sjxo. Chrisrus (talk) 13:44, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- Ed Kochs thought are irrelevant here is regard to the placement of a living subject into a wikipedia category. - note - I did not click on your presented youtube external. Off2riorob (talk) 13:50, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- No duh. But he does present quite nicely the details of the crime he committed from the court report as presented in the New York Times. Just in case someone didn't believe that the New York Times reported that he raped her, and that his crime was not just a crime because she was underage, as is implied in the term "statutory rape", which is just Wikipedia's incorrect label for what he did, not something the major media reported that the court called it. Chrisrus (talk) 14:14, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- IMO you are wasting your time and adding him to a rapist cat is undue and opinionated considering how the case and following situations went but you know how to start a thiry day RFC or I can help you if you feel it is worthy. Off2riorob (talk) 14:21, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for the offer/suggestion. Please do go ahead with that. Chrisrus (talk) 14:44, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- I am surprised you have never come across RFC after being here since 2007. I am not going to open one myself as I said I consider it a waste of the communities time and imo it will create more heat than light without much/no chance of consensus support for any alteration and even if successful will be of minimal/no benefit to the reader. I will help you though to open one yourself if you see fit. The first step is to read this page Wikipedia:RFC - Off2riorob (talk) 14:57, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- It says I should give a fair summary of the justification you are giving for putting him in the category Statutory Rapists but not Rapists. Could you help me out with that part? I wouldn't want to mischaracterize your reasoning for why it's not ok to categorize him as a Rapist but it is ok to categorize him as a Statutory Rapist. Or is it better just to skip the part where I argue your point for you and just leave that for you to do once it's up? Chrisrus (talk) 17:33, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, just make your case, if you object to the current cat:stat rapists inclusion and want to remove it please say why, if you don't object to the category and you only wish to add a disputed new cat, just make you case for that. Off2riorob (talk) 17:42, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- (Edit Conflict with the following post) I plan to argue that, of the two, "Rapist" is more accurate than "Statutory Rapist". Will you argue against that, or is your point that neither are justified? Chrisrus (talk) 18:14, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- Just a reminder that the project isn't about the truth or even accuracy per say, but about how/what reliable sources say. If most RSs call him a statutory rapist, so be it. If most call him a rapist, so be it. --Threeafterthree (talk) 18:40, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- Hm, wikipedia categorization is not about the preponderance of opinionated externals, but more relevant to a reflection of the content in the article. Off2riorob (talk) 18:48, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- If I agree with that, am I taking both "sides" :), anyways, this is way above my pay grade and intellect :) good luck guys ! --Threeafterthree (talk) 18:52, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- Do we really need this? Three, I would be happy to be raised up to your paygrade. Take me with you.... Off2riorob (talk) 18:57, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- If I agree with that, am I taking both "sides" :), anyways, this is way above my pay grade and intellect :) good luck guys ! --Threeafterthree (talk) 18:52, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- Hm, wikipedia categorization is not about the preponderance of opinionated externals, but more relevant to a reflection of the content in the article. Off2riorob (talk) 18:48, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- Just a reminder that the project isn't about the truth or even accuracy per say, but about how/what reliable sources say. If most RSs call him a statutory rapist, so be it. If most call him a rapist, so be it. --Threeafterthree (talk) 18:40, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- This was the only edit I made to the article recently, replacing stat rapist when it was removed. I think there is a case that could be made also to remove that but I think I supported stat rapist as a compromise last time. I am open to persuasion either way, although personally as I said I don't support a month of more heat than light discussion for such minimal returns. Off2riorob (talk) 18:30, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- (Edit Conflict with the following post) I plan to argue that, of the two, "Rapist" is more accurate than "Statutory Rapist". Will you argue against that, or is your point that neither are justified? Chrisrus (talk) 18:14, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, just make your case, if you object to the current cat:stat rapists inclusion and want to remove it please say why, if you don't object to the category and you only wish to add a disputed new cat, just make you case for that. Off2riorob (talk) 17:42, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- Are you aware that the word Rapist only appears in the article once and that is in the cat:Statutory rapist and the word rape only sits in the article once in relation to that he was charged with rape? (he was not convicted of rape) Also are you aware that the discussion could result in a consensus against adding the category:Rapist and also a consensus against the the statutory rape category that is currently included, leaving neither. Off2riorob (talk) 17:47, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- So, the category "Sexual Assauters", then? Chrisrus (talk) 18:55, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think we have that category, we would need a populated cat to guarantee its continued existence - lots of choice already - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Sex_crimes - Off2riorob (talk) 19:01, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think we have that category, we would need a populated cat to guarantee its continued existence - lots of choice already - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Sex_crimes - Off2riorob (talk) 19:01, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- So, the category "Sexual Assauters", then? Chrisrus (talk) 18:55, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- It says I should give a fair summary of the justification you are giving for putting him in the category Statutory Rapists but not Rapists. Could you help me out with that part? I wouldn't want to mischaracterize your reasoning for why it's not ok to categorize him as a Rapist but it is ok to categorize him as a Statutory Rapist. Or is it better just to skip the part where I argue your point for you and just leave that for you to do once it's up? Chrisrus (talk) 17:33, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- I am surprised you have never come across RFC after being here since 2007. I am not going to open one myself as I said I consider it a waste of the communities time and imo it will create more heat than light without much/no chance of consensus support for any alteration and even if successful will be of minimal/no benefit to the reader. I will help you though to open one yourself if you see fit. The first step is to read this page Wikipedia:RFC - Off2riorob (talk) 14:57, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for the offer/suggestion. Please do go ahead with that. Chrisrus (talk) 14:44, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- IMO you are wasting your time and adding him to a rapist cat is undue and opinionated considering how the case and following situations went but you know how to start a thiry day RFC or I can help you if you feel it is worthy. Off2riorob (talk) 14:21, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- No duh. But he does present quite nicely the details of the crime he committed from the court report as presented in the New York Times. Just in case someone didn't believe that the New York Times reported that he raped her, and that his crime was not just a crime because she was underage, as is implied in the term "statutory rape", which is just Wikipedia's incorrect label for what he did, not something the major media reported that the court called it. Chrisrus (talk) 14:14, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- Ed Kochs thought are irrelevant here is regard to the placement of a living subject into a wikipedia category. - note - I did not click on your presented youtube external. Off2riorob (talk) 13:50, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
I noticed a number of inaccurate categories still included from earlier days before the invasion of SPAs and dedicated disrupters, , ie. User:Proofreader77 and User:Tombaker321, both of whom were later permanently banned. If any are deleted incorrectly, please fix and discuss. Thanks.--Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 19:12, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- Appears reasonable to me. Off2riorob (talk) 19:16, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- Am also removing cat under discussion, "statutory rapist," as that category is reserved for those "convicted," not arrested or accused. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 19:21, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- I have replaced it, there was a large discussion and consensus was to include - please do not remove it withi=out a new discussion and consensus. The article includes this comment - "Polanski pled guilty to the charge of unlawful sex with a minor" - as close to a description of Statutory rape as you are likely to find. Off2riorob (talk) 19:25, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
- When they use the term "unlawful sex with a minor", what was unlawful about it, the fact that she was underage and nothing more implied? We need a lawyer. Chrisrus (talk) 03:37, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
- I have replaced it, there was a large discussion and consensus was to include - please do not remove it withi=out a new discussion and consensus. The article includes this comment - "Polanski pled guilty to the charge of unlawful sex with a minor" - as close to a description of Statutory rape as you are likely to find. Off2riorob (talk) 19:25, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
Removal of categories
Several categories, all of which are valid and were on the article for many months, have been removed. Cats are not usually removed because it does not apply to them currently - expat cats are there on dozens of articles long after the subject no longer lives in that country. For example, Justin Fashanu is in several expat cats. There is no doubt that Polanski is Polish and a sex offender, so why should he not be in Polish sex offenders? A person does not have to be notable for being in a particular group for them to be in a cat, so removing the crime victim cats on the basis that it has nothing to do with his notability makes no sense. He is not notable for being born in 1933, but we don't remove 1933 births. Jim Michael (talk) 19:32, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
- The crime categories are for the nation they were convicted of a crime in, not for their ethnic heritage, or his country of origin. We don't have a category:Jewish sex offenders or a category:Black sex offenders. Dream Focus 19:37, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
- Was he a victim of a crime in those nations? What crime was he a victim of? His wife was murdered, but I don't think that counts, and that was in America anyway. And was he a citizen of France at that time even? Was crime was he a victim of, and what nation was he a citizen of at that time?
- He is not in the United States. Dream Focus 19:42, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
- There are plenty of guidelines which explain the problems with over-categorizing, implying that deleting those categories is logical:
- "Try to limit the number of categories. For example, a film actor who holds a law degree should be categorized as a film actor, but not as a lawyer unless his or her legal career was."
- "It should be clear from verifiable information in the article why it was placed in each of its categories."
- "They should be based on essential, "defining" features of article subjects, . . . Do not create categories based on incidental or subjective features."
- "Pages are not placed directly into every possible category, only into the most specific one in any branch."
- A simple example from those guidelines would exclude his being categorized as a crime victim, since that was not mentioned in the article. And finding an example of how categories have apparently been misused, as in Justin Fashanu, does not justify their misuse in other articles. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 20:34, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
- Polanski is Polish and French. French crime victims and Polish crime victims are in Crime victims by nationality, which means that they are categorised by the subject's nationality, not the country the crime occurred in. The Early career section says he was mugged and beaten, fracturing his skull - that is relevant to his life. He is in French sex offenders, so why is he not in Polish sex offenders? Both are in Sex offenders by nationality, which means nationality of subject, not country of offence. Jim Michael (talk) 21:28, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
- There are way too many categories already. And no, everyone I see listed in the sex offenders or murders by nation is someone who got famous committing crimes in that country mentioned, regardless of country of origin. He is famous for, among other things, raping a 13 year old girl and fleeing America. Not for being a Polish/French sex offender, just a sex offender. Dream Focus 21:49, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
- Polanski is Polish and French. French crime victims and Polish crime victims are in Crime victims by nationality, which means that they are categorised by the subject's nationality, not the country the crime occurred in. The Early career section says he was mugged and beaten, fracturing his skull - that is relevant to his life. He is in French sex offenders, so why is he not in Polish sex offenders? Both are in Sex offenders by nationality, which means nationality of subject, not country of offence. Jim Michael (talk) 21:28, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
- The category for crime victims is for those who got famous because of the crimes committed against them, like the child he raped. He didn't get hordes of media coverage for being mugged and beaten when younger. Dream Focus 21:53, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
- He is listed in the categories People from Łódź and People from Paris. Aren't you suppose to just mention what city they were born in? How can you be from two different cities? Was he born in Paris? Dream Focus 21:49, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia categorises people by nationality, not by where they live or work, nor by where events happened in their lives. For example, Russell Brand is not categorised as American, though he now lives and works in the US. Polanski has received a great deal of media coverage for the sex offences he committed. He is certainly a sex offender, but can't be categorised as an American sex offender as he isn't American. Therefore he should be in the French and Polish sex offenders cats. The People from ... cats should, I believe, be for where the subject grew up. If he grew up in more than one place, then more than one can be present. Jim Michael (talk) 23:28, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
It seems strange to think that "Polish sex offender" means that the sex offense took place in Poland and not that the sex offender is Polish. I mean...that's simple grammar. We have a "sex offender," and an adjective that describes the "sex offender." The adjective is "Polish." The same follows for "crime victim." If the category "Polish sex offender" is intended to describe sex offenders who committed sex crimes in Poland, it should be rewritten to reflect that. The sentence "Polish sex offender" does not mean that -- and that's not my opinion, that's objective grammar.
Also, I certainly support categorizing him as a victim of crime, and not because of any early muggings. While I can see some purpose in debating whether or not Polanski is a victim of the Manson murders, my personal opinion is that he clearly was, making that category valid. Either way, the man is a sex offender of Polish descent. This makes him...hey!...a "Polish sex offender." ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 03:28, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
q about rapist categories
if polanski can be merely categorised as a "sex offender" rather than rapist when it comes to those categories in nationality, why does the "statutory rapists" category still remain? Andrewlp1991 (talk) 23:32, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
- - From the lede - self declared/accepted/admitted - enough in my opinion to satisfy WP:BLPCAT - Polanski was arrested for the sexual abuse of a 13-year-old girl and pleaded guilty to the charge of unlawful sex with a minor, - Off2riorob (talk) 23:36, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, he pled guilty to that crime, which technically is statutory rape, and statutory rapists are rapists, are they not? Would a "child molester" category also violate BLP because it doesn't exactly match up to Polanski's self description of his crime? Andrewlp1991 (talk) 23:38, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
- Please take care to not violate BLP on this talkpage - This has been well hashed out massively - I suggest if you were not involved in the prior discussions please read the archives Personally I see your comment about child molester as close to a violation itself. Its hair splitting personal opinion, stat rape is fine in this case. At least that was the previous consensus. Rapist suggests the person did not say yes, whereas in this case is was not a bit like that. Off2riorob (talk) 23:42, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
- You violate the rules yourself aren't you? Are you claiming his victim said yes? He admitted to providing her with a recreational sedative and alcohol, and having sex with her, she too worn down and intimidated to fight back. Dream Focus 00:51, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- Please take care to not violate BLP on this talkpage - This has been well hashed out massively - I suggest if you were not involved in the prior discussions please read the archives Personally I see your comment about child molester as close to a violation itself. Its hair splitting personal opinion, stat rape is fine in this case. At least that was the previous consensus. Rapist suggests the person did not say yes, whereas in this case is was not a bit like that. Off2riorob (talk) 23:42, 15 September 2011 (UTC)